How To Unlock Your Creativity & Access Your Visionary Mind

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What do you see is the thing that holds people back the most from being their most creative and best self? I think it's being concerned what other people think and a feeling of the people who make great things are somehow special and that they're not special. And that's just not true.
We're all, everyone has the capability to make great things and none of us are special. It seems like a lot of people, they're focused on what other people think, like you said, and it almost, it blocks them into this kind of rut feeling, I guess, that they feel like they're stuck in a rut.
I don't know if you've heard this before with a lot of your artists, but with me as a writer and an author, I've heard so many people come to me and say, I want to write a book. And I asked them, how long have you been, had this idea that you wanted to write this book about this thing? And some people will say five, seven, 10 years, but they've been worried about what people think, or they feel creatively stuck in a rut.
Do you ever feel stuck in a rut? And if so, how do you personally get out of that? I think taking action is a really great thing and not setting up barriers of entry. I can imagine a musician saying, I can't play this song because I don't have the right guitar, or I don't have the right equipment to do it.
And there are no barriers to entry. There's always a way.
I come from a punk rock background. So in punk rock, it was a do-it-yourself mentality.
And I started my first record company not knowing that was something you can do. It just really happened automatically.
I wanted to start making records. I wanted people to hear them.
I never knew that you could get signed to a label. I just thought, well, if you want to make a record, you make a record.
So I made records and print up 500 copies of a seven inch single, for example. So I think there's always a way you don't have to wait for permission from someone else.
I think that's a big part. People are waiting for permission.
To actually make their art. To make their art.
Someone has to say, you know, I'll hire you to do this or I'll publish your book if you write a book or set the stage to, to allow you to do it. But I don't think that's the way great things are made.
When you did those, when you printed those first 500 singles, what was your dream or your vision? Was it okay? Now I'm going to, how do I sell these? How am I going to give them away for free? What was the process for you? Combination of giving them away for free and selling enough to be able to make another one. That was always, any of the things I've made, it's always been about sustainability.
As long as I can make another one, it's a success. But at this point, you know, you're sustainable probably for life, I'm assuming, with the success you've had.
So you don't have to make something to try to make your money back or get your time back or whatever. So what is the vision now? I still think in those terms, though.
I feel like I want to make it where it's sustainable by itself. There's something that feels good about that, that you make something that can live on not because of an endowment.
Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know why.
I don't know why that is. And maybe it's just the way I was brought up.
What does an artist need to be thinking and feeling at the same time to create great art? I would say thinking is the least part of it. It's much more about feeling and being true to themselves, whatever that is.
Feeling their truth. And how do you know when an artist is being truthful in front of you it's a feat it's just a feeling i can't feel it yeah i think something you said was i have no skill set it's all intuitive it's not what's in my head it comes through me yes so you're not analyzing or thinking about it.
You're saying, huh, something doesn't feel right. It starts with a feeling always.
It starts with a feeling. The analysis comes in later to try to understand either the feeling, if there's a reason, like, if I'm just feeling something, I can experience it and be fine.
If we have to act on the feeling, then it's like, okay, this feels like this. Can I, is there a way to figure out why? Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't.
And if you can figure out why, or if you think you know why, then you can say, hmm, could it be this, this, or this? Let's try those things. See what happens.
Do you have a process when you're starting the first session with an artist after you've been introduced and you say okay let's do this we're gonna work together do you have a process where you set a personal intention that you don't tell them but then also you tell them what the intention is for your time working together um i'll say when we're starting a new project i always have have anxiety. Really? Always.
Always. Because I don't know what's going to happen.
There's a real question mark when we walk in to start. And I know that it could go a lot of different ways.
And I don't have, I'm not interested in having a playbook in advance. I'm interested in seeing where it's gonna go.
And it's scary because it could not go good. And sometimes there's an, you know, some artists have an expectation that I'm gonna do something.
I can't do anything, you know? Right. It's like, it's either gonna happen or it's not gonna happen.
So, but then usually within, sometimes it's the first day, sometimes it's the third day, sometimes it's the second week where something happens like, whoa, what was that? How did that happen? And then that might give us a clue. It's like, oh, this is, this is what it wants to be.
And that may change also. It may, that may be the first inclination.
It could start that way. And then it makes a left turn, turns into something completely different.
The work itself tells us where it wants to go. So because we have, the reason it's so scary is because we have so little control over it.
That's what's scary. There's no control.
None. And if an artist has a big expectation, I need to put out a record that's going to do well.
I need to make money. I need to make the label happy.
Whatever it is, my fans need to love this, then that could feel like a lot of pressure. But do you allow that pressure to affect you? No, because I know it's not in the interest of the work.
It's like we're all on the same page. Even the people we're ignoring, the record companies, the managers, the agents, the people who are yelling, I need this, I need this now.
Ultimately, for everyone involved, if the artist makes the best possible work that they can, everybody wins. It's just that no one involved in the process understands what it takes for that thing to happen.
I had a conversation with a basketball player, a member of the Golden State Warriors, who told me there's all this pressure now to do a lot of stuff on social media. And he said, and it's getting in the way of our playing.
Interesting. And I said, well, if you tell the people who are asking you to do the social media stuff, don't you want us to win?

So if you want us to win, let us focus on winning.

And he said, they don't seem to care.

They want us to do the social media stuff.

They want us to distract ourselves from the work of the game.

From the flow, from the practice, putting in the reps, showing up.

And then I say, well, then it's up to you.

What's more important, to please them or to win? Man, this is fascinating. Was there, what was the experience for you where the artist or the band came in and it was the fastest, best-flowing process you've ever experienced, where just everything was lining up.
Authenticity, truth, raw realness was happening every day. And it was also, it was a great success for them personally to have the art be real and honest, but it also landed commercially and took off.
The first thing that comes to mind would be Johnny Cash because he had gone 25 years of

not having success.

And he had been dropped from two labels.

And when I signed him, he didn't even know why I was interested.

That really was a conversation.

It's like, why do you think working with you is going to be any different than working with anyone else? Like he had given up. And for him to get into it, we recorded in my living room and he would just play me songs on an acoustic guitar.
And there was an honesty in what was happening there. We didn't know that we were making a record.
At that time, we were just looking for songs. So he was playing me songs.
It was almost like a way for us to musically meet each other. He would play me the songs he loved, either from childhood or songs that he thinks he'd like to sing or a song he wrote.
And it was just a very honest experience. And then we went into the studio, we picked some of those songs.
We went through hundreds of songs and then picked a handful to try to record. And when we went into the studio with the band, it didn't sound, it didn't have what the living room recordings had.
There was some intimate honesty, and we'd never heard Johnny Cash that way before. So that led to the first album, which was a solo acoustic album.
Again, we didn't set out to make a solo acoustic album, but it revealed itself as that's the most interesting thing to do. And that ended up being very successful and very successful with young people, which he had not experienced since the 1950s.
Wow. So that was a...
And after that, after the success of that album, we made five more albums together. And he had confidence based on the experience of the first one, which he'd expected nobody to care about, really took cold with people.
And then on, I think it was on our fourth or fifth album, he did a cover of Hurt, the Nine Inch Nails song, and that ended up being probably the biggest, you know, maybe the biggest hit of his life, certainly of his later life. Wow.
And that was a real revelation. How important is confidence for an artist in your mind to have? Because I've been around some of the greatest athletes that are freaks of nature athletically that are gifted beyond anything physically who can do anything in practice, but then they lacked the confidence in the game and they looked like an average player.
Yeah. Does that, is that the same thing with, with artists, singers, guitar players, musicians, where they could be so gifted,

but if there's a time when the pressure is on to record,

then on the confidence, does that hold people back?

Have you seen that?

I'll say it's not as simple as that because there's a vulnerability required for the artist

that if you're confident to the point that it disguises your vulnerability, that doesn't work. So it's like a dance between being wildly open and vulnerable and commitment to do whatever it takes to get your work through.
That combination, which is a difficult combination. It's almost like what I'm hearing you said, this is really interesting point.
It's almost like you just have to have courage to be vulnerable, which is not really confidence. It's more of like, you just got to, if you're unwilling to be courageous with your vulnerability, you just won't be able to share your art.
That's true. There's, I'll say though, to get up in front of people and sing takes a certain amount of confidence.
Yes. It's just part of the, it's a hard thing to do.
I couldn't imagine doing it. That's true.
A friend of mine, just Rachel Platten, she just, she wrote a song called Fight Song that was really popular over the last six or seven years. But she had a, you know, she started a family over the last five years.
So she's got two, two young kids. And, um, I'd seen her play in the past where she was uber confident, but she hadn't played in a while.
And so she came out and she's like, guys, I'm actually really nervous. And this is my first time playing, you know, kind of with a man with these new songs in a while and I'm revealing myself of these new songs.
You know, you could

sense... nervous and this is my first time playing you know kind of with a man with these new songs and a while and i'm revealing myself of these new songs you know you could sense this you know vulnerability which was actually beautiful yes it was like we're rooting for her you know she she messed up a few times but she kept going and she's like hey i'm gonna restart this and thank you guys you know but it was like wow and it made moments of like awe and magic happen yes it was so cool.
Yes. And it's like, hey, I'm going to restart this.
And thank you guys. You know, but it was like, wow.
And it made moments of like awe and magic happen. Yes.
It was so cool. Yes.
And it's not about perfection. That's the thing.
It's like humanity breathes in the mistakes, you know, in the it's what it's what's not ordinary. If it was if it was machine like perfect, it's not so interesting.
cookie cutter. Right.
It's all the same. So it's the edges.
It's the frayed edges that make it interesting. You talk about transcendence.
You talk about manifestation in the universe. I know you're a big meditator.
How long have you been meditating for? I learned when I was 14 and, um, it's been a big part of my life the whole time. I can't say I've done it continually, but I go through phases of five years on two years off or, or something might replace it.
That's another kind of a meditation. Like I may go from a TM sitting meditation to learning Tai Chi and Tai Chi will be, will fill the slot of my TM time.
Right. Transcendental meditation.
Yeah. If you could go back to your 40 year old self, what would the number one piece of advice be for you at 40? If you can think about where you were then, who you were working with, the projects you were working on, the people in your life, knowing what you went through the last 20 years, what would you tell yourself then? I would always say just have as much fun as possible because I'm a workaholic by nature and I love making things and I love making good things and a great deal of time and effort goes into that.
And I'm hard on myself in that way in that I have high expectations. And I think we can have fun too.
Yeah, of course. What brings you the most joy? I think probably quality time in nature with my family.

That's probably the best.

Being in a beautiful place, being close to my family,

breathing fresh air, walking on the beach,

laughing together, reading together,

watching movies together,

watching wrestling.

I like pro wrestling.

Yeah, of course.

Pro wrestling with my son.

It's fun.

That's great.

Are you more of a wrestling fan or UFC now?

Always been pro wrestling.

UFC feels like they might hurt each other.

They do hurt each other. That's why I like wrestling.

It's more everybody's on the same side

for it to be the best show.

They want it to be a win-win.

It's a win-win.

You talked about that in this documentary

I'm sorry. it's more uh everybody's on the same side right for it to be the best show it would be a win-win yeah it's a win-win yeah you talked about that and you know this documentary series about you know i love the video of you being like the ultimate promoter with the bc boys in a commercial like just being this hype man promoter like you know um how much has i guess pro wrestling influenced you as an artist? A lot.
A lot. Because it's a world where you never really know what's true.
It's a world of mystery. And great skill is involved in what they're doing.
And there's a story. And it's a story sometimes of people who seem to hate each other.
Do they hate each other? They might be best friends. It's like we don't know.
But sometimes they really do hate each other. And then the matches are different when they really hate each other.
But you never know when it is. So there's a sense of, and I think it's more honest than any other form of any other sport or any other form of entertainment.
See, it's funny. I say it's the only legitimate sport is pro wrestling because it's the most like the world.
In the world, we don't really know what's true. Everybody has a facade.
People put on airs or a performance.

A mask.

Yeah, or the politician talks and we don't really know who they are. They say these things that are often written for them.
We don't know.

um so there's this like performative aspect of the world that wrestling that's what the world's really like we say that the that wrestling is fake. It's like the world is fake and wrestling is real.
That's what it is. I wanted to go back into what you talked about.
You mentioned transcendence, and I think you mentioned the universe having your back when you asked for an answer with this, you know, particular song with

System of a Down. What's your thoughts on manifesting and manifesting something you want and alchemizing it into the world? Do you believe in manifesting? Do you believe in a, you know, artists should be thinking in that way? Or what's your thoughts on it? I believe in it a million percent.
It's something

that I've experienced before I knew what it was. So when I say it's like, I feel like it has to do with the purity of the intention behind what you're doing.
if your intention is pure and you're doing it for the right reasons.

It seems... the purity of the intention behind what you're doing, if your intention is pure and you're doing it for the right reasons,

it seems like things tend to work out.

And that ends up being a manifestation mindset,

but it didn't start for me that way.

It just was like, I really believe in what I'm doing. I really care about it.
I want it to be the best it could be for me. And I'm excited to share it.
And the results have shown me that you can manifest things. It happens.
But I'll say when I do it, it's never based on the outcome. Ooh, what do you mean? I'm never asking for a result.
What are you asking for? I'm asking for to rise to the occasion to make the best thing that I can, for the thing that I make to be great. Too many people stay in relationships that no longer serve them.
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Great is a vague word. I don't know what great means.
I came to realize recently what great means, but I didn't know most of my life I was aiming for great, but I didn't know what that was.

And I've come to realize that great means it's, it's a devotional, it's a devotional kind of

greatness. It's a gift to the universe.
It's a gift to God there's no greater you can't put more into it than that you know you can't what about the single what about what someone's going say? Who has anything to say if we're making a gift for God? You're putting all of your purest intention into this thing for the universe. Wow.
That's where it's at. I didn't know that.
I came to realize that recently. Again, my word was greatness.
Yeah. Greatness.
That was the word of what I was shooting for, but I've come to realize what it is. Wow.
You have a whole section about greatness and success in the creative act, a way of being, which I loved your explanation there. That is fascinating.
So greatness for you, what I'm hearing you say is a pure gift of yours to God. Yes.
And it's a gift of yourself to God. It's like, this is the best I can do.
This is my offering. This is what I have to offer.
If you think of a formula for manifesting as an artist, what would that formula be?

I don't think there's a formula. Is there an art to manifesting? I don't know.
I don't, I think, um, it sounds like a shortcut and I don't think there are shortcuts. I think it's always, uh, a version of the work, of finding your way into what it is that the universe wants you to do and then really dedicating yourself.
How do you know what the universe wants you to do and when to do it? The right timing. Because you could be like, I have this idea for this thing.
Maybe it's the right time now. Maybe it's five, 10 years away from now.
How do we really tap into that knowing? I think it's situational. And I think, again, if you're tapped into the universe, it tells you, it directs you.
An example, I may have three different ideas that I'm excited about. And I kind of get them all going.
And then one of them just seems to take off on its own. And one of them, no matter how hard I work on it, it never seems to come together.
Can't find the right collaborators, some obstacles in the way. When that happens, I feel like it's the universe saying now is not the time.
Interesting. Because, you know, I, I love this.
And I also hear the other side of the, I guess the coin where, you know, I don't know if you know Ryan holiday, which I do the obstacle is the way is his kind of stoic philosophy of like when the

obstacle is there it presents itself and you also feel like this is something you want to do like you've got to kind of go through that pain and then you know overcome it that is part of it i'm not saying to turn away from the obstacle but i'm saying when the obstacles become insurmountable consistently and there's another path that's going smoothly and you feel the same about both of them. Go for the effortless way.
Well, pay attention. See when is the universe giving you a push? When is the wind hitting your sails the right way? There's something to it.
I would never suggest not fighting through the work. It's grueling no matter what.
It's grueling no matter what. That said, sometimes it feels like now's not the time.
It's like everything you throw at it gets deflected. Right.
But this other thing is guiding you. Taking on its own life.
Earlier, you asked about what I perceive to be a shortcut. And a shortcut is how little can I get away with doing? And I think that the real question is how much more can I give to the thing I'm making? What else can I give to it? And thinking in terms of how much more can we do, not how much less can we do? It's not about shortcuts.
It's not about getting it done. It's not about a four hour work week.
I loved it, but that's not, it's like whatever it takes for it to be all it could be, commitment and total commitment and dedicating your life to making the best things you can, whatever it is. Yeah.
That's beautiful, man. So you think that as artists, we should be thinking about manifesting, but not in the terms of doing less, but putting the maximum into making it great.

Doing anything that's within our power,

if it doesn't have to make sense,

nothing has to make sense.

You know, it could be when I wear these purple socks,

I can write a better song.

Great.

Doesn't matter.

Don't question it. Just do whatever works.
Do it. How do you navigate putting art out there and being like, oh, I hope people like this and they don't give me negative feedback versus people are going to like it or hate it or whatever.
They're going to respond to it. How do you navigate you feeling good about it no matter what happens to it in the world? I will say before releasing, it's not so much a fear, but there's this sort of, there's this, maybe I don't experience actually where the fear is coming from, but there's a terrible on ease.
And I think usually before releasing an album, there's this awful purge of cortisol that happens. And I've talked to a lot of artists about this where you're in tears before it happens and you're exhausted.
And the catharsis that you'd hoped you would get from it never arrives. So there is that.
I think there has to be, maybe there's just, there is some resource that you pull from that brings you to a place where you are in absolute commitment to the fact that the work needs to exist. You know, that it is, it doesn't matter what anybody has to say.
Something, the song wants to be written. The song has, in some ways, and I sometimes think of it like this when an idea comes through, the song is asking to be written.
It feels ready to be worked on. And to deny it that is kind of, it's going against your nature, what you know you kind of have to do, what you have decided you're here to do.
And so there's something that is willing to be made. It's willing itself to be made through you.
And it's like, you either do it or don't. Right.
But don't, sorry, excuse me, don't get annoyed when somebody else has the idea, because there's a lot of parallel thinking in the world as well too. And someone else is going to put something similar out.
Exactly. Yeah.
And that actually happened. I mean, artists talk about this.
I've certainly experienced it. You have an idea for a song and six months later you hear it on the radio and somebody else's has played with the themes that you were thinking of and it's we're all living in the same similar societies or or you know so it's a lot of parallel thinking comes in because we're all very similar stimulus is whatever it is um but you have to there has to i don't know there is a there's a resource that you pull from that that is just you know this needs to be made.
Like, what was it like, you know,

when you came out with your first song that was a mega hit?

What was the feeling before that launched

versus, you know, the most recent,

Unreal on Earth?

You know, is the feeling still the same?

You know, 12 years later,

is there a different feeling

at this season of life of an artist,

you know, before you launched the recent album? And the feeling on the first song, I was so, like, I was such an unknown and that I just was watching its uptake slowly, but surely there was these moments where, okay, it was reaching another audience. So it's like, oh my God, it's like, that's a video that's been seen by 10,000 people.
Oh my God, that was a huge deal for me at the time. I think it was like, it was like on the first page of Reddit or something, which at the time was like, you know.
Huge. It was huge, you know.
And then it was starting to be played, I think some of the earliest, I think one of the first radio stations that played it in the States was like Alabama Mountain Radio. And like it was being Shazam'd and we were watching, like somebody was telling me, oh yeah, it's just been Shazammed in like parts of the world, parts of the States that I, I'd never been to the States.
I'd never thought that I would be where the music would be heard. At this point, people in Ireland didn't know that I was an Irish artist, you know? Oh, really? Yeah, honestly.
I think the song had started to be played on Irish radio, but they assumed that I was like an American import, you know, that I wasn't. They didn't know that I was from Ireland because I hadn't been releasing music all that long.
And then there was this kind of dark sort of gospel rock sound, you know, in that song. This kind of swampy sort of vibe.
And then yeah so so it's different you know i think that you there's there's sometimes you miss being the underdog a little bit you know there's some there's a lot to be said for something to that feeling right yeah having nothing to lose the naive like oh this is really exciting it just yeah yeah exactly and and feeling like every every inch you gain is is it is it is a huge deal and it's a big win and you've nothing to lose you can prove everything but also if nothing happens it's like it's okay, you know, go away come back when you're ready, you know what I mean so it's trying to maintain that maybe there's something to be you can still maintain that sort of mindset a little bit of like, I think when you, and this is also maybe something that you can, it's good to practice or to investigate or think about, is when the stakes seem higher or you've like on your second or third release, you feel like if it doesn't do something for you that it's somehow, you know, it could be a success by the metrics of what you would think beforehand or anyone else's, but you create this idea of, I don't know, you just, you want more from it or, you know, so that's... How do you navigate that? Like when you launch, you know, an album and it doesn't do the numbers in your mind, like, well, I hope it does this many downloads or streams in the first month or year.
Yeah. If it doesn't do that, or if it does do that, how do you navigate that expectation? I think it's always just about, I try to just bring myself right back to, because you do, and you look, you work with, you partner up with business, like labels and stuff like that.
And they wanted to win. You know, yeah.
And they're competitive by nature. And it's great that you have a team that thinks like that, that wants to bring your work to a large audience.
And there's a lot of different ways that different artists will think about this. Independent artists maybe, you know.
And what I have settled on is that if i believe in the work i want to give it every chance that it can it can reach as many years as possible and let those years decide and and i just try to bring it back to the work do i believe in it if i believe in it and i love it enough that i feel it's worth releasing it it's worth being out in the world, I'm at peace with it whether somebody listens to it or it doesn't. I'm at peace with it if nobody listens to it.
There's some songs that I'm quite proud of, such that if they were heard by a hundred people, I would say that song is still of the quality that I wanted it to be on. The quality of the work doesn't change, whether it's listened to, listened by a million people

or a billion, billion times, or it's listened by a thousand, thousand people or a hundred

people or 10 people.

The quality of the work doesn't change.

Wow.

So I just try to bring it down to, am I happy with the, with its quality?

That's beautiful.

I think that's a good, uh, lesson for any artist or author or anyone. It's like, are you happy with the quality? Yes.
If you have a career or business around it, sure, you want to figure out a way to make money and survive. But I think you have to be proud of the quality of work, no matter if it sells millions of copies or one copy.
Totally. Does it represent you? That's beautiful.
Yeah. Man, Andrew and there's a lot i would love to talk more about with you we'll have to have you back on another time but i want people to check out your your new album unreal on earth um i want them to to come to uh watch you live on tour man which i'm going to do one of these days please do they can they can go to hosier.com for your tour dates and everything like that, is right? Yes, yeah, tour dates.
Unfortunately, not many shows left. They can get notified when you do do more.
Exactly, exactly. I'm curious, in the last decade, what has been the biggest transformation you've seen within yourself through this journey of success and experience and making all this art and what is the biggest thing you still struggle with today? Stuff I've learned about myself is, I mean, I've done a lot of personal work.
I used to think that realizing that creating, maybe this is one thing I can offer, that being creative and creating. And my relationship with myself was also, you know, my relationship with the work is very often dependent on my relationship with myself.
What do you mean by that? That it's a thing. It's like whether it's self-doubt or it's self-criticism, an internal monologue that is largely negative.
Something I took for granted my whole life, it didn't catch up with me until a couple of years ago when I realized I honestly felt I was never going to write another song. Really? Yeah, sometimes during the pandemic.
And I hit this kind of wall where I couldn't move forward anymore. And I felt I'd written my very last song.
And I had to come around to, okay, no, this is just, it's the same voices, but they're just louder now because there's nothing to distract me you know so i think that was you know in the pandemic that was part you weren't able to tour you weren't able to go out and distract yourself not that tour is a distraction but you weren't able to you had to sit still now yeah and hear everything coming in yeah and in some ways is a magnificent distraction. And it's a job in which you're constantly putting out fires, you know, and every day is another little crisis, you know, and, you know, I still get, I won't say, would you call it stage fright? But like, I'm still having to regulate my body constantly.
I'm terrible. You know what I mean? Every day is like, really? Oh yeah.
10 minutes before stage. Yeah.
I'm like, I can't do this yeah yeah come on yeah yeah there's an element of like nerves and and like I am not able I you know I'm not able to to to do this it's so funny I was joking with some of the band and this is maybe a magician thing we're two week we had a few weeks break I was a month into a couple of weeks after break and I was I was trying to think now this is maybe because a lot of playing is memory. You don't think about when it's automatic.
But I was trying to think to myself, how do I play that song on guitar? I couldn't visualize a fretboard. I couldn't visualize finger movement.
But yeah, there is always this creeping voice that's, and look, it's immaterial. You find your way around it.
You find your step over it, you know, and you ground yourself and stuff. But yeah, but creatively, I think when you are exactly as you described, there was no distractions, like in during the pandemic pandemic so but tour is there's plenty there's always something to do whether it's press promo you know meetings i'm oftentimes releasing music at the same time so it's looking at artwork video edits mixes mastering and i'm constantly i'll be honest like constantly a little bit overweight like just a little bit under overwhelmed overwhelmed, you know, and like the nose is like, you know, you're on the line.

It's a nostril, you know, barely breathe.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And part of me, you know, it's also realizing, OK, is this by design?

Am I trying to keep myself up here?

Interesting.

Because you didn't want to face yourself, maybe.

Yeah.

You just, yeah, you operate well in that space or at least you function in that way. But yeah.
Maybe it's not well, but you're operating. Yeah, you're operating.
Yeah, you're operating. You're getting everything that needs to be done, done.
So a pandemic hits, and that all stops, and you have to face yourself. I guess so, yeah.
What was the biggest fear that came to you when you weren't able to go on tour, you weren't seeing people and you had to turn around and face the parts of you that maybe you weren't aware of yet? I can't recall exactly if it was a feeling of fear. There was a feeling of maybe sorrow that came with it and sort of it's just a lowness you know what i mean just sort of a very like a you know and i think i think anybody who's maybe prone to sort of depressive episodes or is you know and will be familiar with it but it's this kind of i just slowed down in all in in all forms.
And I just felt no root.

I saw no ability to write.

And any attempt to make it seemed impossible.

I also fully believe, and this is a funny thing about when you're in that mindset,

I fully believe that I could not, I did not know how to write a song despite all evidence against it i was like oh no i actually don't know how to do this um so how many songs have you written at this point oh like you know probably you know over a hundred or you know obviously ones that don't get released right like like yeah but like like there's something I do all the time, but there's something enters into the mind. And then I realized it's like, oh no, this has nothing to do with this.
This is something else. So again, it's about relationship itself, you know? And so that was something I learned.
What was your relationship with yourself like? I think I didn't have much of one, you know? So, uh, and I, it was more just realizing, okay, I'm going to have to cultivate a very positive relationship with myself, you know, and actually kind of put, you know, begin to address the root of some of this stuff and put an arm around myself and actually, so that was the beginning of, of, of, uh, one of the more significant changes in, in my life, I would say, is tending to actually, you know, by the time I was 30, actually, like tending to, let's say, mental health and a relationship with self, which I had just avoided doing, you know, because I could sort of, I felt maybe I could work my way around it. I could, you know, but once you can't run anymore, you know, it's, I'd sometimes describe it as a hamster wheel had to stop spinning.
You know what I mean? And so you then you're forced to sit in your little cage, you know what I mean? So, and kind of look around and take it in and go, okay, it's something not right about this. what is the thing that you realized about your identity with yourself or your relationship to yourself when you no longer were chasing or on tour or distracted by facing? Spring is here, and so are the deals at DeeDee's Discounts.
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I think it was, I'd say you could say it was defined by a large, I had a very largely a combative relationship with myself. So I was absolutely at war with myself constantly.
Really? Yeah, yeah. How did that look like on a daily basis? What would that be? Yeah.
It's like I couldn't have a thought without an opposing thought, you know? So it's like my brain was kind of split in two that I'd have a thought and then a thought to combat with that. So, no, that's not real.
That's not true. This is the truth.
This is real. And yeah, back and forth.
Yeah. Or it's, and, but when in, at times and like, I guess like your state, you know, you're not always, sometimes you're a seven, some days are a three, some days are a nine, some days are, you know, um, it's like, that could really slow me down because it's like, I think this is a nice idea.
I think this is beautiful. No, it's not.
You know, so I couldn't hold, I couldn't hold one thought at the same time, oftentimes. So it was, it was challenging.
I won't go into the nitty and the gritty of, of like, but that's probably for another... But no, it definitely put roadblocks up.
So that was a big change when I started to address that. How did you navigate the process? And I'm assuming there wasn't...
I mean, I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know if in Ireland growing up, there was a lot of talk around mental health and having a good relationship with yourself and a healthy identity. And, you know, I don't know if there was or not, but how did you learn to develop that then during that time without having any of those skills or tools for the first 30 years of your life? There wasn't.
There wasn't really, you know. and's not something even...
I mean, more so my parents' generation would have had any sort of... Not really.
Not in a kind of a, this is something we can talk about. It's a day-to-day thing.
Can I suck it up and let's not talk about it and keep moving forward and just everything's good? Very 1970s. Yeah,s.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very 1970s.
But I'm very grateful to sort of, to have access to more, to be more present in the day-to-day with my actual lived experiences as opposed to just, yeah, just having this kind of... Wow, man.
Yeah. So you're allowed, I mean, I'm really grateful you're talking about this because I wrote a whole book called The Mask of Masculinity.
Okay. Seven years ago now, yeah, where, because growing up, I felt like I had to be this strong man.
I could never cry. I could never show my emotions in school, sports.
Um, and it tormented me inside,

you know, it tormented me emotionally feeling like I had to wear a mask to fit in and belong, but it wasn't my truest authentic self. And when I hit about 30, that's when I started to unwind and start to navigate the therapy myself and reflect and heal.
And it's, it's, it was extremely challenging. It's probably the hardest thing I've ever done is to let go of those masks and open myself up to myself, turn around and look at all the parts of me that I was ashamed of or afraid of or scared of or

insecure of and actually acknowledge them and look at them and start to heal the little boy inside of me that still had a lot of guards up and fears and insecurities and doubts and shame and angers and resentments and all these different things that I was not proud of and started to integrate my current self with my younger self.

There's it.

And, and the now. And it was the most challenging thing I've ever done in my life, but it set me free.

And as I'm sure you're, you're in right now, healing is a journey and I'm 10 years deep in

the healing work and I've never felt more free. Also knowing that you can't just stop doing the

work. Yeah.
Yeah. Like I still go to therapy every month.
I still show up and allow myself

to talk about it and process things in a healthy, conscious way, in a safe way. And I think

Thank you. therapy every month, I still show up and allow myself to talk about it and process things in a healthy, conscious way, in a safe way.
And I think it's really inspiring to hear you talking about this because I can only imagine the amount of pressures that artists feel to create art. And I think a lot of artists tend to create from pain or suffering, it seems like, rather than peace and joy.
But it's probably challenging because you're sharing it with the world, but you also still need to deal with it yourself and just probably a messy process. Yeah.
The whole sharing from, or writing from, me just I just want to address it's like thank you thank you for for sharing that and it's it's it's it is it's beautiful it's also it's it's very similar to what you what you describe and I think I was 30 also took me 30 years of living in a way where I realized, oh God, I can't do this anymore. I can't live like this anymore.
And I've waited too long to feel like I can cope. You know what I mean? It isn't interesting that no amount of success or money or fame will give you that peace or freedom that you're looking for.
Yeah, 100%. Isn't that interesting? Yeah.
But I think a lot of people, I don't think that's what you were doing. I don't think you were chasing that.
You were being an artist and it took off. Yeah.
But I think a lot of people in society and the world are looking to accelerate their career, to have more status, to make more money, to have flashier things or success to fulfill a part of them that is insecure or afraid or doubting something. And the more I did that and the more others do that, it doesn't solve the problem.
You still have to turn around and look at yourself at some point. Totally.
And I think it's largely unconscious and this driving, you know what I mean? But that sort of thing of drive. And I do think about this a lot, whether would I be driven to be, you know, because surely the work, it's this question, surely the work is enough.
Like, if I just loved songs and I just wanted to write them, do I need everybody to hear them? You know, what's the part of- Why go on tour? Why do this? Why do this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, why did I need it? So there is, I sometimes wonder, you know, what part of me needed to be witnessed, you know, or what, and I think a lot of people who are driven towards work in the public view, and I'm not saying everybody, I'm just saying generally, I think you might be correct in that.
All of us are driven in some way from maybe some unobserved place that in some way that all of us think, okay, if I get this thing or this thing all my problems will be solved all my you know we all imagine this picture in our in our heads you know of of that arrival point that just never comes or you get there you'll see the picture and it'll align with the picture in your mind and then you and but the feeling is is is not there it's still not enough yeah you still want more yeah are you still comparing to what your peer might be doing oh they're getting this opportunity right yeah yeah totally and it's something um you shared about about you know that thing it's kind of that self-parenting thing of like getting relationship with yourself as a child and a friend of mine once described described it quite quite beautifully i have to say of like getting to this point in that process of then looking out from some moment of their life and just reminding, pausing to remind themselves to invite their child to watch it with them. Cool.
And to stand in space, whether through the window of their home or at some event that they were at, and to imagine in their mind's eye that their child was there and to say, hey, look, you know, look where we are. You did this, you know? And I'm quite moved by that just to just to bring your child into that and go like, because there's some, there's some, sometimes there's a, there's this sort of switch that happens where we think, no, I took myself away from these circumstances

and I did all of this on my own. But to turn around to your kid and say, hey, I want you to see this and how great you did and how you did this and we did this together.
Isn't this cool? And just to let your kid sort of smile at that. That's beautiful.
Yeah, and I think that is a life-changing relationship thing, I think, with yourself, if you can do that. But again, yeah, I had no language for this until I was after.
A few years ago. Yeah, until a couple of years ago.
So I'm still, my reluctance also to speak too much on it is because I'm so early in it, you know, for him. Wow, man, this is beautiful.
I'm so happy you're talking about this though. Yeah.
And don't feel, and you know, don't feel like you need to open up about things here or anywhere until you feel you've processed things enough. And you may never need to do that publicly either.
It's just. I appreciate it.
Yeah, yeah. It's not a, it's not a pressure here for that in any way.
Um, but it sounds like you are in a journey of creating a healthy relationship with self. It's what I'm hearing you say.
Yeah, I think, I think so. I think so.
I'm also, I'm realizing that it's, it's also imperative for the work I want to make. And it's also, it's like, it's like to not do it.

I think when you start on that,

by the time you're ready to sort of do your own little

work on yourself,

you're ready to realize

that not doing this

isn't an option,

you know,

or not,

you know,

or it's an option,

but you've done that.

You know what I mean?

Or for what's ahead of you

and what it is

that you want for your life

and you feel

the experience of living

that you would like to get to.

It's like you realize, okay, I just kind of have to do this. What do you think, Andrew, is available for you emotionally, internally and externally in the world as you continue to navigate this healing journey for yourself? What do you feel like is available for you or your mission? I think this is maybe not just necessary for the work as well too, for being creative.

I just want to walk in step with myself in a way that feels aligned with myself and aligned

with the work.

Yeah.

And to, I guess, to feel at peace in whatever the work is that needs to be made.

I'm sorry. And to, I guess, to feel at peace in whatever the work is that needs to be made.
Have you ever been out of alignment with yourself in this last decade with anything you've created or opportunities you've said yes to where you fall afterwards? That's not really what I wanted to do or, but I did it for ego or because whatever reason. It happens.
I won't give examples. It happens or you catch yourself.
You catch yourself on the thought of like, yeah, there's always this sort of one more stone to turn. You know, it's like I always approached things with like leave no stone unturned.
It's like, you know, just do everything. Yeah.
Every opportunity. Yeah, a little bit.
Yeah. That can be draining and exhausting.
It can be draining, yeah. Learning to say no to stuff is something that I'm still cultivating a relationship with or a habit of.
I think, yeah, or I'm a real ... And I think this is ...
I'm proud of this trade in myself, but that extra hour that I'll put in or that extra 30 minutes or that extra hour um i can i can focus hyper focus on something in that in those last few you know but but what happens is sometimes i'll agree to to do something i'll be fully in my mind of like i do want to do this it's like will you do a little bit extra here and add more rather than take this break while I use this time to work? And it's like, yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that.
And then afterwards I realized, okay, why am I feeling exhausted? I'm not burnt down and now I can't function. I can't work as I want to work.
So I do want to address, hopefully get better at that. This has been a powerful section, so I'm grateful we're talking about this, but I have a question about a couple of other things around your performance experience.
I feel like, I hope they get to come watch you perform live sometime because I feel like it's a spiritual experience for the audience to watch what you do. I'm curious for you, what has been the most spiritual experience you've had while performing on stage where you felt like something is different here.
I'm feeling something different. There's an energy that is elevated at a different level than I've ever been to, or maybe I'm seeing myself from a different place or I'm forgetting the words, but I'm singing the words.
Like, was there ever a spiritual experience for you that was so big and awe-inspiring while performing? There's definitely moving experiences. I was going to joke that I think the spiritual experience is for it to be in the crowd.
I've been in shows and I've been in such elation. I've been like so ecstatic and kind of lifted by being in crowd energy and all enjoying the same thing.
And maybe I was going to make a joke. It's like the preacher is the least spiritual of all people.
You know, the person at the top it's everyone else is engaging in a spiritual experience the half preacher is is i'm just kidding but like but i think when i'm on stage um there's a kind of a flow state you know that you hope to to come into and that's another thing where it's like calming mind and this is all connected all connected. It's all connected with mental health.
It's all connected with like wellness, but then also like mindfulness as well too. And mindfulness was a big change for me.
It was realizing how many conversations were going on, how unpresent my mind was, you know, even sometimes when I was on stage and wanting to just, yeah, it would, it can happen. It can happen.
And realizing I, you know, remaining grounded on stage, remaining present on stage. So you're not, um, so, so meditating before shows, I find really, really helpful.
And how would you get distracted on stage before? It can happen where, again, if I'm releasing music, there's a lot of emails that I haven't answered. I swear to God.
Right before you're like, oh, thinking about it. Yeah, but you could be on stage in the middle of a song, playing a chord and singing lyrics.
And in your mind, I'm not present in that. I'm thinking it's happened where I'm like, I didn't email back.
Come on. Really? Yeah.
Yeah. Holy cow.
Yeah. Oh, no, you're doing laundry lists in your head while you're in the middle of like singing a song and the crowd are doing their thing.
And how is that even possible? How do you stay? I mean, how can you create a performance while thinking about the email you had to send to Larry? Yeah. And management or something? It's not great.
It's like and I don't I think I think that, I think the show, potentially my worry is that the show, I think because it's muscle memory, you just can do it. But it's, it's, it doesn't, you don't feel great about the, about the show.
You don't, because you weren't present to them, you know? So it's been a while now since I would, there's also, that's kind kind of before that's when my mind was totally just like haywire and so mindfulness you know meditation and stuff and i'm super happy that helps you keep keep you present now on stage on stage yeah i think creating and sharing my art has brought me more clarity more peace more presence more compassion more self-awareness um and it's made me feel connected to others in a way that nothing else has yeah um i would say emotion is energy in motion so it has has to move. And if it doesn't move, it gets trapped inside of us and it can become disease, you know, disease or you take it out on somebody in traffic for no reason.
Right. So you have to find ways to move the energy and to share the stories that are trapped in your mind and in your heart and your body.

And there's many modalities to do that.

You do breath work.

You can, you know, do yoga.

You can go to boxing even and have an intention behind your practice.

You can, I don't know, meditate, go to therapy. There's plenty of avenues, but one that is underused is creativity.
You can create and move the energy and you can alchemize those things that are trapped inside of you so that they transform into something else and you can feel energetically lighter and more free. What is the poem that you've written, whether be recently or in the beginning of your creative process that is giving you the most healing personally like when you wrote it you felt you were healing every time you read it or perform it you feel like you're healing what is that poem well i have two immediate answers that come to mind.
The first one is a poem about my father not being around and ultimately finding forgiveness. But I think that that's too easy of an answer.
Okay. And the real answer is going to sound cliche, but it's everyone.
And then the next one, the one that hasn't been written, because it's the most current and in real time to my life. And whatever it is that I choose to create around is something that I need to express.
It's a breadcrumb trail that I am following. I'm the first person in my audience.
So I'm not thinking what other people want to hear. I'm paying attention in my daily life to when I get moved, when I get inspired, when I get pissed off, and I pluck it out of reality, and I put it down on paper.
And then if I go back to that beginning place, the rest of the poem will almost write itself if I give it enough time and space. Interesting.
So every single one is a healing process. And it's one of the reasons I like to facilitate for other people to do the same thing, because if they choose something moving and meaningful, it can be surprisingly healing.
Yes. You have another quote or poem that you put online that says, how do we talk about the problems without feeding them? If we ignore them, we most likely keep repeating them.
If we explore them, we run the risk of reinforcing them. So how then do we get down to the source of them? So if we talk about our problems or write about them or create about them, are we feeding the problem or are we solving the problem by processing them? How do we not recreate old traumas or memories or wounds by sharing stories over and over again that we're trying to heal from? That is a great...
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What you have to do is you have to hold two truths in the same space at the same time.

Give me an example personally.

Holding on and letting go.

When I wrote the piece about my father, it was a piece about my anger and ultimately forgiveness and gratitude.

But I wasn't able to actualize it until many, many years later. It took me a long time to catch up with the peace.
So the peace was almost like a prayer. You have to purge and pray simultaneously.
And if you do, I promise you, you will wind up feeling like a different person on the other side. And then when you share it with somebody and you're unconditionally loved and seen, to really like see and be seen, to be willing to be open, to be willing to be vulnerable from a place of strength, it's scary as f*** and it is always worth it.
Wow. So when did you write this poem about your dad i think i was in my mid-20s really yeah so like 20 years ago something like that something like that 45 yeah yeah so when you wrote it um how long did it take for you to fully feel at peace with the relationship you had with him or lack of relationship you had with him? How long did it take for you to be like, I'm at peace with this.
I forgive. I'm at peace.
Well, I think people think that peace is a destination or like a product. Peace is a process.
There's stages stages of peace there's layers that you have to keep uncovering within yourself so right now i can say i am as fully at peace as i have ever been i can't say that i'm fully at peace but one thing that i know about my life is every single thing that has ever happened to me, whether I understood it or not, in real time or in retrospect, has become a part of the quilt of who I am. I don't like to compare circumstances.
I don't like to compare pain, but I've had a lot of pain in my life. And everything that caused me pain is a part of my identity now now so if i reject that thing i'm rejecting a part of who i am wow yeah and so you have to accept it in order to integrate it in order to alchemize it in order to move on with it what's the most painful thing that you've had to overcome emotionally or internally that maybe took you a long time to overcome or maybe it just was a really painful thing to overcome and you really wish didn't happen in the moment and maybe you still don't wish but you know you wouldn't be the identity you are and the man you are without that pain i think there's a lot of them that come to mind um i'm not going to share some of them because i'm not ready to put them on display yet but i go into a lot of those stories in the album and ultimately in the journal you know when i created the never ending now album i wasn't sure whether or not i wanted anybody to hear it i know remember you know i was there because you were one of the few people that i sent it to yeah and was willing to trust because of your integrity because because of our friendship, and because I love you.

And I know you've been through real things.

And so I was like, okay.

But it's scary putting it out there.

A hundred percent.

Yeah.

I'm taking my own medicine.

You know?

So I was like, all right, let me, I finished this thing, this work of art that was like a reflection of my path to self-love and love with a partner

through poetry and this conversation that was very intimate that i had with my wife yeah um and then i was like i don't know that i want to show this to people or even weirder monetize this thing and leave it open for people to criticize it to judge it to validate it to compliment it it didn't really matter what their response was i didn't want to externalize my self-worth that way because it was so close to my heart and then i was like all right i'm going to send it to like five people and i sent it to five people uh including you and mike posner who's a great friend and mike was the first person that got back to me and my criteria for sending it out was okay if one person hears the album and hits me back and says, hey, this was moving and meaningful to me, like this landed, then I would put it out. But if everybody was like, yeah, this is good.
I really like it. I think you should, then I wasn't going to do it.
And so Mike hit me back right away. And he was like, literally, he he goes if you don't put this album out he said I'll pry it out of your cold dead hands and then I sent it to you guys and you listened to it and had you know a similar but different response yeah then I was like all right let me let me lead by example even though it's hard and scary why is it so hard for most people to put out something that is their art or their expression but also has sadness pain loss embarrassment tied to it in some way why is that so challenging for anyone let alone artists because they're scared to be rejected for truly showing us who they are but the thing is like if i would get rejected if i put this project out and people don't respond to it or worse they really don't like it then at least i know they don't like something that's really me i mean i, I know that the art is separate from me.
It's not really me, but it is as close as tracing paper could come when I made it. Right.
And so I'm like, all right, if they don't like it, at least I know I showed up. Rather than making something that's perfect that everybody's gonna love and then

they say wow i love this thing and i love you but i don't even feel it because i was never there

yeah it wasn't fully authentic it wasn't fully you yeah interesting how do you do that like for

example i was thinking about many things that you have shared over the years driving over here

Thank you. Yeah.
Interesting. How do you do that? Like, for example, I was thinking about many things that you have shared over the years driving over here and the courage that it took to do that.
Well, what was and is your process? I think a lot of it was when I started opening up about vulnerable things to individuals, to friends, to family, and then kind of publicly, you know, my expression to the world in different ways. I think I was so depressed.
You know, this line from like Jim Carrey comes to me where it's like depression is like you needing deep rest from the character you've been playing. Something like that.
It's like you are depressed because you need deep rest from the character you've been playing. It's like you've been wearing some mask, you've been putting on some identity that's not truly you.
Maybe parts of you are out there, but not all of you. And so a lot of me was out there, but there were other parts of me that were afraid.
If you or anyone actually knew who I was, what I'd been through, what had happened to me, would anyone like me or love me?

And that was the ultimate fear. If people truly knew, they would never like me.
And then I would

be alone. And then I would die alone and suffer for the rest of my life.
It's kind of the fear

that I had. And so I think I just felt like I'd rather be alone and no one like me than everyone know you know just parts of me and not all of me.
And I think it got to that point when I hit 30 that I realized there were parts of me that people weren't aware of. And I wasn't willing to face them myself, let alone share them with other people.
And that just wasn't the life I wanted to live anymore. Now it was scary on the other end because I I didn't want to live alone.
And I want to have people not like me or love me or accept me. But I think that's the risk probably every artist has to take to put their expression out there that you may not be liked or understood or loved.
You may be criticized or hated or whatever might be taken advantage of for who you truly are. And and i think that's the biggest fear but i'd rather feel free and have no friends than be a prisoner and have everyone like me i very much relate to that i have a line that says you have to be willing not to be liked in order to be loved otherwise it's your representative they're thinking of it's like uh that disguise thing that you're talking about that character that you're playing and you're doing it for good reasons survival you know mental emotional physical spiritual if you felt unsafe in your life that's where the character came from exactly but the thing is it's exhausting to walk around with all that armor draining what was that what's that poem called that you were just i think it's called bird song you know i never really like name my my pieces until i actually put them out can you share that one can you perform that one Do you have that one? Yeah, I actually put them out.
Can you share that one? Can you perform that one? Do you have that one? Yeah, I actually do.

The birds aren't singing to win a Grammy.

They're not trying to go platinum through their marketing or planning. They're just jamming.

I listen without even understanding.

The truth without agenda is authentically astounding. It makes me think of cheetahs.
They don't run for our approval. They don't judge their spots or contemplate laser hair removal.
It makes me think of wolves. They don't howl for validation.
They don't have to get the perfect pic to post on their vacation. It makes me think of eagles.
They're not soaring to impress me. Although once I saw a dolphin backflip over a jet ski.
My point is neither one of them would sell me shit on Etsy and I doubt a porcupine would ever try to come off sexy. Humans are the only animals pretending to be something that they're not.
Wow. Why are we ashamed of what we've got? We should strut chest out, head up.
Let's be proud of ourselves for once. Isn't it exhausting sticking out your butt and sucking in your gut? And for what? It's a waste of energy.
I'm giving up. In this moment, I'm enough.
In this moment, you're enough. In this moment, we're enough.
I'm dismantling my image. We are perfect in our flaws.
Birds don't care whether we listen. They don't wait for our applause.
I have built a lovely prison, but I live behind the wall. So if love is my religion, I'll escape when freedom calls.

You have to be willing not to be liked in order to be loved. Otherwise, it's your representative they're thinking of.
But to truly be yourself, you have to let go of what was. The past is like a prison.
It's an echo repeating just because, cause, cause, we are many people in our lives, so I'm not one to judge. But if they love one part part of you it's limited to what that does i want your whole soul i have no goal show me the unseen stuff don't invite me over only after you have cleaned up perfect makes me want to kick my feet up no one's's living in a catalog.
Ikea dreamed up. Have you ever seen a lion chase a hundred zebras? Have you ever seen a turtle hide inside a shell? A caterpillar doesn't know that she'll become a butterfly.
So if you go to heaven, are you still aware of hell? Wow. When did you write that one I don't remember is it like a few years ago or is this like a decade ago I mean no it's like a few years ago I was on the phone with a friend of mine and the birds were just like really loud and during conversation, I said something about the birds aren't singing to win a Grammy.

And then I thought, you know what?

I like that.

That's a good line.

Pause the conversation.

I wrote it down and then started to build on it later. Of all the poems that you've written and performed, how many of them talk about love i think all of them in some form or fashion but i think some of them are self-love some of them are romantic love some of them are love of god some of them are our love of humanity nature all of it what would you say how long have you been doing poetry? Would you say like officially, you know, as part of your thing, not just like, I did it when I was like seven, a little bit here and there, but like, what was the year where you're like, oh, I'm doing this consistently.
Do you remember? I mean, I think I'm past 30 years. 30 years.
Yeah. It's like one of the longest, at least internal of my life wow you know my my relationship with rhythm and rhyme yeah what do you feel like has been the biggest lesson around self-love in the last 30 years of writing and performing poetry that you've discovered and had to learn well Well, it's something that I try to teach other people.
Like when I facilitate for the poetry workshops in person and why we created this journal in partnership with Passion Planner to scale those workshops without me having to be there i automatically take away anybody's blocks by saying don't try to make something great make something true and if you make something true it will automatically be great and i'm telling people stuff that i need to relearn over and over and over again because if i sit down and i say i'm gonna make something great i'm just getting in my own way i'm turning my back on the muse i have to be willing to just take the ride some of the best poems for me uh are poems where I'm surprised at where they go. Really? Yeah, because I don't get overly strategic before I start writing.
I just start in some sort of a spark and then see what fire it turns into. So it might be, okay, I heard the birds sing and you thought of this idea.
Maybe you're on the phone with a music person and you're like, oh, they're not singing to join a grammy and you're like okay where could i take this in other areas of life is that kind of how it starts or yeah okay the birds are this the wolves this the bears this you know it's like let's keep the analogies going and then yeah it's like basically you're you're building um railroad tracks and you're the railroad tracks and you're the train and you're the conductor and you're the beginning middle and end the destination wherever you wind up um and you're also none of those things because you're the observer. Wow.
So it's a spiritual practice, creativity. You have this other, do you call them poems when you put something online? Like an Instagram post? Is that like a short poem or is that like a phrase within a poem usually? Well, yes.
It's usually a phrase within a much larger poem, which is to be quite honest, very annoying to me. You know, I want, of course, please follow me on Instagram.
But it's like, I always feel like it's a truncated version of what the art is. And that's why I'm excited to put out actual like, finished pieces that people can experience on their own time.
So it's a great window into my

work, but, um, I'm not sure. Snippets.
It's not the full thing. You have this, uh, you know, poem within a poem, I guess you call it about love that you shared recently.
It said, love is not a guarantee. It will come and it will leave.
It relies on your belief. So it will bring you to your knees.
Love is weak. Love is lost.
Love is grief. Love is loss.
Love is risk. Love is real.
But love is worth the pain we feel. Where did that come from? Let me say the next line.
Yes. And I won't let the fear of losing you limit how I'm loving you oh my gosh can you share that whole poem yeah yeah let me actually give you the behind the context give me the context so i was doing this collaboration piece um and it was like a marketing team and a brand that were involved in this project.
I don't want to go into the specifics because it really doesn't matter. But they had liked this particular poem that had already been written and it ends, save the day with love.
So we're on this like planning call about the piece of art collaborative project that we're doing and one of the guys goes hey is there any way we can change the final word because he goes love is a bit soft and he goes i want to end on something that has more like strength and pizzazz and i was like no because it's not your poem first of all yeah no respectfully second of all i don't look at love as soft i said i look at love as hard and he goes okay and then the conversation ended and i hung up I wrote this piece. Love is not soft.
Love is hard. Love is not smooth.
Love is scarred. Love is not perfect.
Love is flawed. Love is not quiet.
Love is loud. Love is not pride.
Love is proud, but love is not certain. Love is doubt, and love is not leaving.
Love's turning around. Love's learning to fight for the middle ground.
Love is not gentle. Love is rough.
Love is not fragile. Love is tough.
Love is not thinking that love is enough. so I choose to love you harder from the moment I wake up.

Love is a revolutionary act.

Love is an attack. Love is not abstract.
Love is a fact. Love is saying yes when I want to say no.
Love is saying stay when I want to say go. Love is staying high even when I get low.
Love is going with the flow, holding on and letting go. Because love is not easy.
Love is complex. Love is not right or wrong.
Love is context. Love is not black or white.
Love is progress because love is not a product. Love is a process, yes? So in the simple moments, when the chaos fades away, in the silence of the evening or the empty of my day, I remember what it feels like to give my heart away and think how lucky I have been to get to love someone this way.
And how lucky we still are to get to love someone this way. It's a miracle to be alive.
That's why I have to say love is not a guarantee. It will come and it will leave.
It relies on my belief. So it will bring me to my knees.
Love is weak. Love is lost.
Love is grief. Love is lost.
Love is risk. Love is real, but love is worth the pain I feel.
And I won't let the fear of losing you limit how I'm loving you. I'm going to love you harder.
It's a privilege to be hugging you. I'm going to love you harder more than ever before.
I'm at peace with knowing love is war. That's what we're fighting for.
So love harder. First yourself, then your family, your friends, your co-workers, your neighbors, and your community.
Then try to love a stranger. Try to tap into your empathy.
Imagine that you've known them and protected them since infancy. Now try to love the people that you don't love at all.
Even people you don't like, they probably need it most of all. And if you can't love them big, see if you can love them small.
See if you can hold compassion for the holes that they are and they are. But love is not soft.
Love is hard. Love is scarred.
Love is flawed. Love is loud.
Love is proud. Love is doubt.
And since love is most important when we do not know how, I will choose to love you harder in the never ending now. Wow.

Oh my God. the important links.
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