How To Unlock Your Creativity & Access Your Visionary Mind

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Speaker 1 What do you see is the thing that holds people back the most from being their most creative and best self?

Speaker 2 I think it's being concerned what other people think

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 a feeling of the people who make great things are somehow special and that they're not special. And that's just not true.

Speaker 2 We're all, everyone has the capability to make great things

Speaker 1 and none none of us are special it seems like a lot of people they're focused on what other people think like you said and it almost it blocks them into this kind of rut feeling i guess that they feel like they're stuck in a rut i don't know if you've heard this before with a lot of your artists but with with me as a writer and an author i've heard so many people come to me say i want to write a book and i ask them how long have you been had this idea that you wanted to write this book about this thing and some people will say five seven ten years but they've been worried about what people think or they feel creatively stuck in a rut.

Speaker 1 Do you ever feel stuck in a rut? And if so, how do you personally get out of that?

Speaker 2 I think taking action is a really great thing and not setting up barriers of entry. Like

Speaker 2 I can imagine a musician saying, I can't play this song because I don't have the right guitar or I don't have the right equipment to do it. And there are no barriers to entry.
There's always a way.

Speaker 2 I come from a punk rock background. So in punk rock, it was a do-it-yourself mentality.

Speaker 2 And,

Speaker 2 you know, I started my first record company not knowing

Speaker 2 not knowing that was something you can do. It just really happened automatically.
I wanted to start making records. I wanted people to hear them.
I never knew that you could get signed to a label.

Speaker 2 I just thought, well, if you want to make a record, you make a record. So I made records and, you know, print up 500 copies of a seven-inch single, for example.

Speaker 2 So I think there's a way you don't have to wait for permission from someone else.

Speaker 2 I think that's a big part.

Speaker 1 People are waiting for permission to actually make their art.

Speaker 2 To make their art. Someone has to say, you know, I'll hire you to do this, or I'll publish your book if you write a book, or set the stage to allow you to do it.

Speaker 2 But I don't think that's the way great things are made.

Speaker 1 When you did those, when you printed those first 500 singles,

Speaker 1 what was your dream or your vision? Was it, okay, now I'm going to, how do I sell these? Am I going to give them away for free? What was the process for you?

Speaker 2 Combination of giving them away for free and selling enough to be able to make another one. That was always any of the things I've made, it's always been about sustainability.

Speaker 2 As long as I can make another one, it's a success.

Speaker 1 But at this point, you know, you're sustainable probably for life, I'm assuming, with the success you've had.

Speaker 1 So you don't have to make something to try try to make your money back, you know, or get your time back or whatever. So what is the vision now?

Speaker 2 I still think in those terms, though,

Speaker 2 I feel like I want to make it where

Speaker 2 it's sustainable by itself.

Speaker 2 There's something that feels good about that, that you make something that can live on

Speaker 2 not because of an endowment. Yeah, that's interesting.
I know you're... I don't know why.
I don't know why that is, but that's just my... And maybe it's just the way I was brought up.
May May just be.

Speaker 1 What does an artist need to be thinking and feeling at the same time to create great art?

Speaker 2 I would say thinking is the least part of it. It's much more about feeling

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 being true to themselves, whatever that is.

Speaker 2 Feeling their truth.

Speaker 1 And how do you know when an artist is being truthful in front of you?

Speaker 2 It's just a feeling. It's a feeling.
Feel it.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I think something you said was,

Speaker 1 I have no skill set. It's all intuitive.
It's not what's in my head. It comes through me.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 So you're not analyzing or thinking about it. You're saying, huh, something doesn't feel right.

Speaker 2 It starts with a feeling always.

Speaker 2 It starts with a feeling. The analysis comes in.
later to try to understand either the feeling, if there's a reason. Like, if I'm just feeling something, I can experience it and be fine.

Speaker 2 If we have to act on the feeling, then it's like, okay,

Speaker 2 this feels like this.

Speaker 2 Can I, is there a way to figure out why?

Speaker 2 Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. And if you can figure out why, or if you think you know why, then you can say, hmm, could it be this, this, or this? Let's try those things, see what happens.

Speaker 1 Do you have a process when you're

Speaker 1 starting the first session with an artist after you've been introduced and you say, okay, let's do this, we're going to work together.

Speaker 1 Do you have a process where you set a personal intention that you don't tell them, but then also you tell them what the intention is for your time working together?

Speaker 2 I'll say when we're starting a new project, I always have anxiety. Always,

Speaker 2 always,

Speaker 2 because I don't know what's going to happen. You know, there's a real question mark when we walk in to start.

Speaker 2 And I know that it could go a lot of different ways. And I don't have, I'm not interested in having a playbook in advance.
I'm interested in seeing where it's going to go. And it's scary because

Speaker 2 it could not go good. And sometimes there's an ex, you know, some artists have an expectation that I'm going to do something.

Speaker 2 I can't do anything.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 2 it's like, it's either going to happen or it's not going to happen. So,

Speaker 2 but then usually within sometimes it's the first day, sometimes it's the third day, sometimes it's the second week where something happens like, whoa, what was that? How did that happen?

Speaker 2 And then that might give us a clue. It's like, oh,

Speaker 2 this is what it wants to be. And that may change also.

Speaker 2 That may be the first inclination. It could start that way, and then it makes a left turn, turns into something completely different.

Speaker 2 The work itself tells us where it wants to go. So because we have, the reason it's so scary is because we have so little control over it.

Speaker 1 That's what's...

Speaker 1 No control. None.

Speaker 1 And if an artist has a big expectation, I need to put out a record that's going to do well.

Speaker 1 I need to make money, I need to make the label happy, whatever it is, my fans need to love this, then that could feel like a lot of pressure. But do you allow that pressure to affect you?

Speaker 2 No, because I know it's not in the interest of the work. It's like we're all on the same page.

Speaker 2 Even the people we're ignoring, the record companies, the managers, the agents, the people who are yelling, I need this, I need this now.

Speaker 2 Ultimately, For everyone involved, if the artist makes the best possible work that they can, everybody wins.

Speaker 2 It's just that no one involved in the process understands what it takes for that thing to happen. I had a conversation with a basketball player, a member of the Gold Estate Warriors, who told me

Speaker 2 there's all this pressure now to

Speaker 2 do a lot of stuff on social media.

Speaker 2 He said, and it's getting in the way of our playing. Interesting.
And I said, well, if you tell the the people who are asking you to do the social media stuff, don't you want us to win?

Speaker 2 So if you want us to win, let us focus on winning.

Speaker 2 And he said, they don't seem to care. They want us to do the social media stuff.

Speaker 2 They want us to distract ourselves from the work of the game, from the flow, from the practice, putting in the reps, showing up.

Speaker 2 And then I say, well, if then it's up to you, what's more important to please them or to win?

Speaker 1 Man, this is fascinating. Was there

Speaker 1 was there, what was the experience for you where the artist or the band came in and it was the fastest, best flowing process you've ever experienced where just like everything was lining up.

Speaker 1 Authenticity, truth, you know, raw realness was happening every

Speaker 1 day.

Speaker 1 And it was also, it was a great success for them personally to have the art be real and honest, but it also landed

Speaker 1 commercially and took off.

Speaker 2 The first thing that comes to mind would be Johnny Cash because he had gone, you know, 25 years of not having success.

Speaker 2 And he had been dropped from two labels. And when I signed him, he didn't even know why I was interested.
That really was the conversation. It's like,

Speaker 2 what do you think? Why do you think? working with you is going to be any different than working with anyone else. Like he had given up.

Speaker 2 And for him to

Speaker 2 get into it, we recorded in my living room and he would just play me songs on an acoustic guitar.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 there was an honesty in what was happening there. We didn't know that we were making a record at that time.
We were just looking for songs. So he was playing me songs.

Speaker 2 It was almost like a way for us to musically meet each other. He would play me the songs he loved, either from childhood or songs that he thinks he'd like to sing

Speaker 2 or a song he wrote. And

Speaker 2 it was just a very honest experience. And then we went into the studio, we picked some of those songs, we went through hundreds of songs and then picked a handful to try to record.

Speaker 2 And when we went into the studio with the band, it didn't sound,

Speaker 2 it didn't have what the living room recordings had. There was some intimate honesty, and we'd never heard Johnny Cash that way before.

Speaker 2 So that led to the first album, which was a solo acoustic album. Again, we didn't set out to make a solo acoustic album, but it revealed itself as that's the most interesting thing to do.

Speaker 2 And that ended up being very successful and very successful with young people, which he had not experienced since the 1950s.

Speaker 1 So that was a

Speaker 1 and after that,

Speaker 2 after the success of that album, we made five more albums together and he had confidence

Speaker 2 based on the experience of the first one, which he expected nobody to care about, really

Speaker 2 took hold with people. And then on, I think it was on our fourth or fifth album,

Speaker 2 he did a cover of Hurt, the Nine-Inch Nails song, and that ended up being probably the biggest, you know, maybe the biggest hit of his life, certainly certainly of his later life. Wow.
And

Speaker 2 that was a real revelation.

Speaker 1 How important is confidence for an artist in your mind to have?

Speaker 1 Because I've been around some of the greatest athletes that are freaks of nature athletically, that are gifted beyond anything physically, who can do anything in practice, but then they lack the confidence in a game and they looked like an average player.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Is that the same thing with artists, singers, guitar players, you know, musicians, where they could be so gifted, but if there's a time when the pressure is on to record, they don't have the confidence.

Speaker 1 Does that hold people back? Have you seen that?

Speaker 2 I'll say it's not as simple as that because

Speaker 2 there's a vulnerability required for the artist

Speaker 2 that if you're confident to the point that it disguises your vulnerability,

Speaker 2 that doesn't work.

Speaker 2 So it's like a dance

Speaker 2 between

Speaker 2 being

Speaker 2 wildly open and vulnerable and commitment to do whatever it takes to get your work through. That combination, which is a difficult combination.

Speaker 1 It's almost like what I'm hearing you said, this is a really interesting point. It's almost like you just have to have courage to be vulnerable, which is not really confidence.

Speaker 1 It's more of like you just gotta, if you're unwilling to be courageous with your vulnerability, you just won't be able to share your art. That's true.

Speaker 2 There's, I'll say, though, to get up in front of people and sing takes a certain amount of confidence. Yes.
It's just part of the, it's a hard thing to do.

Speaker 1 I couldn't imagine doing it. That's true.
My, a friend of mine, just

Speaker 1 Rachel Platten, she just

Speaker 1 She wrote a song called Fight Song that was, you know, really, really popular over the last six or seven years. But she had, you know, she started a family over the last five years.

Speaker 1 So she's got two two young kids and um I'd seen her play in the past where she was uber confident but she hadn't played in a while and so she came out and she's like guys I'm actually really nervous and this is my first time playing you know kind of with a man with these new songs in a while and I'm revealing myself of these new songs you know you could sense this you know vulnerability which was actually beautiful yes it was like we're rooting for her.

Speaker 1 You know, she, she messed up a few times, but she kept going. And she's like, hey, I'm going to restart this.
And thank you guys, you know. But it was like, wow.

Speaker 1 And it made moments of like awe and magic happen. Yes.
It was so cool. Yes.

Speaker 2 And it's not about perfection. That's the thing.
It's like humanity breathes in the mistakes, you know, in the, it's what, it's what's not ordinary.

Speaker 2 If it was other, if it was machine-like perfect, it's not so interesting. It's cookie cutter.
Right. It's all the same.
So it's the

Speaker 2 edges, it's the frayed edges that make it interesting.

Speaker 1 Talk about transcendence. You talk about manifestation

Speaker 1 and the universe. I know you're a big meditator.
How long have you been meditating for?

Speaker 2 I learned when I was 14,

Speaker 2 and it's been a big part of my life the whole time. I can't say I've done it continually,

Speaker 2 but I go through phases of five years on, two years off,

Speaker 2 or something might replace it that's another kind of a meditation. Like I may go from a TM sitting meditation to learning Tai Chi and Tai Chi will fill the slot of my TM time.
Right.

Speaker 1 Transcendental meditation. Yeah.
If you could go back to your 40 year old self

Speaker 1 What would the number one piece of advice be for you at 40?

Speaker 1 If you can think about where you were then, who you were working with, the projects you were working on, the people in your life, knowing what you went through the last 20 years, what would you tell yourself then i would always say just have as much fun as possible because we

Speaker 2 um i i'm a workaholic by nature and i love making things and i love making good things and a great deal of time and effort goes into that and um and i'm hard on myself in that way and that

Speaker 2 i i have high expectations

Speaker 2 And I think we can have fun too.

Speaker 1 Yeah, of course. Yeah.
What brings you the most joy?

Speaker 2 I think probably quality time in nature with my family. That's probably the best.
Being in a beautiful place, being close to my family, breathing fresh air, walking on the beach,

Speaker 2 laughing together,

Speaker 2 reading together, watching movies together.

Speaker 2 You know, watching wrestling, you know, I like pro-wrestling more. Yeah, of course.
Pro-wrestling with my sons, fun.

Speaker 1 That's great. Are you more of a wrestling fan or UFC now?

Speaker 2 Always been pro-wrestling. UFC feels like they might hurt each other.

Speaker 1 They do hurt each other.

Speaker 2 That's why I like wrestling.

Speaker 2 It's more.

Speaker 2 Everybody's on the same side for it to be the best show.

Speaker 1 It wanted it to be a win-win. It's a win-win.
Yeah, you talked about that in this documentary series about, you know, I love the video of you being like the ultimate promoter.

Speaker 1 with the BC Boys in a commercial, like just being this hype man promoter. Like, you know,

Speaker 1 how much has,

Speaker 1 I guess, pro wrestling influenced you as an artist?

Speaker 2 A lot. A lot.
Because

Speaker 2 it's a world where you never really know what's true. It's a world of mystery.

Speaker 2 And great skill is involved in what they're doing. And there's a story.

Speaker 2 And it's a story sometimes of people who seem to hate each other. Do they hate each other? They might be best friends.

Speaker 2 You know, know, it's like we don't know, but sometimes they really do hate each other. And then the matches are different when they really hate each other, but you never know when it is.
So

Speaker 2 there's a sense of, and I think it's more honest than any other form of any other sport or any other form of entertainment.

Speaker 2 See, it's funny, I say it's the only legitimate sport is pro-wrestling because it's the most like the world.

Speaker 2 In the world, we don't really know what's true. Everybody has a facade.
People put on

Speaker 2 airs or a performance.

Speaker 1 A mask.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Or the politician talks, and we don't really know who they are.
They say these things that are often written for them. We don't know.

Speaker 2 So there's this like performative aspect of the world

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 wrestling.

Speaker 2 That's what the world's really like. We say that the, you know, wrestling is fake.
It's like the world is fake and wrestling is real. That's what it is

Speaker 1 i wanted to go back into what you talked about with you know you mentioned transcendence and i think you mentioned you know the universe having your back when you asked for an answer uh with this you know particular song with system of the down what's your thoughts on manifesting and

Speaker 1 manifesting something you want and alchemizing it into the world Do you believe in manifesting? Do you believe in a,

Speaker 1 you know, artists should be thinking in that way? Or what's your thoughts on it?

Speaker 2 I believe in it a million percent.

Speaker 2 It's something

Speaker 2 that I've experienced before I knew what it was.

Speaker 2 So when I say it's like,

Speaker 2 I feel like it has to do with the purity of the intention behind what you're doing. If your intention is pure,

Speaker 2 and you're doing it for the right reasons, it seems like things tend to work out.

Speaker 2 And that ends up being

Speaker 2 a manifestation mindset, but it didn't start for me that way. It just was like, I really believe in what I'm doing.
I really care about it.

Speaker 2 I want to be the best it could be for me, and I'm excited to share it. And the results have shown me that

Speaker 2 you can manifest things. It happens.

Speaker 2 But I'll say when I do it, it's never based on the outcome. Ooh, what do you mean? I'm never asking for a result.
What are you asking for?

Speaker 2 I'm asking for to rise to the occasion to make the best thing that I can, for the thing that I make to be great.

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Speaker 2 Great is a vague word. I don't know what great means.
I came to realize recently what great means, but I didn't know. Most of my life I was aiming for great, but I didn't know what that was.

Speaker 2 And I've come to realize that great means

Speaker 2 it's a devotional, it's a devotional kind of greatness. It's a gift to the universe.
It's a gift to God. Wow.

Speaker 2 If you're making a gift to God,

Speaker 2 there's no greater,

Speaker 2 you can't put more into it than that.

Speaker 2 You know, you can't, what about the single?

Speaker 2 What about what someone's going to say?

Speaker 2 Who has anything to say if we're making a gift for God?

Speaker 2 You're putting all of your purest intention

Speaker 2 into this thing for the universe. Wow.
That's where it's at. I didn't know that.
I came to realize that recently. Again, my word was greatness.
Greatness. That was the word of what I was shooting for.

Speaker 2 But I've come to realize what it is.

Speaker 1 Wow. You have a whole kind of section about greatness and success in the creative act, a way of being, which is, which I loved your explanation there.

Speaker 1 That is fascinating. So greatness for you, what I'm hearing you say is

Speaker 1 a pure gift of yours to God.

Speaker 2 Yes, and it's a gift of yourself to God.

Speaker 2 It's like, this is the best I can do.

Speaker 2 This is my offering. This is what I have to offer.

Speaker 1 If you could think of a formula for manifesting as an artist,

Speaker 1 what would that formula be?

Speaker 2 I don't think there's a formula.

Speaker 1 Is there an art to manifesting?

Speaker 2 I don't know. I don't, I think

Speaker 2 it sounds like a shortcut, and I don't think there are shortcuts. I think it's always

Speaker 2 a version of doing the work, of finding your way into what it is that the universe wants you to do, and then

Speaker 2 really dedicating yourself.

Speaker 1 How do you know what the universe wants you to do and when to do it? The right timing. Because you could be be like, I have this idea for this thing.
Maybe it's the right time now.

Speaker 1 Maybe it's five, 10 years away from now.

Speaker 1 How do we really tap into that knowing?

Speaker 2 I think

Speaker 2 it's situational. And I think, again, if you're tapped into the universe, it tells you.

Speaker 2 It directs you. An example, I may have three different ideas that I'm excited about.
And I kind of get them all going.

Speaker 2 And then one of them just seems to take off on its own. And one of them, no matter how hard I work on it, it never seems to come together.
Can't find the right collaborators.

Speaker 2 Impossible, some obstacles in the way. When that happens, I feel like it's the universe saying now is not the time.

Speaker 1 Interesting. Because, you know, I

Speaker 1 I love this. And I also hear the other side of the, I guess, the coin where, you know, I don't know if you know Ryan Holiday, which

Speaker 1 the obstacle is the way is his kind of stoic philosophy of like when the obstacle is there and presents itself, and you also feel like this is something you want to do, like you've got to kind of go through that pain and then, you know, overcome it.

Speaker 2 That is part of it. I'm not saying to turn away from the obstacle,

Speaker 2 but I'm saying when the obstacles become insurmountable consistently and there's another path that's going smoothly, and you feel the same about both of them, you know, I go for the effortless way.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's well, pay attention. See

Speaker 2 when is the universe giving you a push?

Speaker 2 When is the wind hitting your sails the right way? There's something to it.

Speaker 2 I would never suggest not fighting through the work.

Speaker 2 It's grueling no matter what. It's grueling no matter what.
That said, sometimes

Speaker 2 it feels like

Speaker 2 now's not the time.

Speaker 2 It's like

Speaker 2 everything you throw at it gets deflected. Right.

Speaker 1 But this other thing is guiding you,

Speaker 2 taking on its own life. Earlier, you asked about what I perceive to be a shortcut.
And

Speaker 2 a shortcut is

Speaker 2 how little can I get away with doing?

Speaker 2 And I think that the real question is,

Speaker 2 how much more can I give to the thing I'm making?

Speaker 2 What else can I give to it?

Speaker 2 And thinking in terms of how much more can we do?

Speaker 2 Not how much less can we do. It's not about shortcuts.
It's not about getting it done. You know, it's not about a four-hour work week.
I loved it.

Speaker 2 You know, I loved it, but that's not.

Speaker 2 It's like whatever it takes for it to be all it could be.

Speaker 2 Commitment and total commitment and dedicating your life to making the best things you can, whatever it is.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 that's beautiful, man.

Speaker 1 And so, do you, so you think that as artists, we should be thinking about manifesting, but not in the terms of doing less, but putting the maximum into making it great.

Speaker 2 Doing anything that's within our power,

Speaker 2 if it

Speaker 2 doesn't have to make sense,

Speaker 2 nothing has to make sense. You know, it could be when I wear these purple socks, I can write a better song.
Great. Doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 Don't question it.

Speaker 2 Just do whatever works. Do it.

Speaker 1 How do you navigate putting art out there and being like, oh, I hope people like this and they don't give me negative feedback versus people are going to like it or hate it or whatever.

Speaker 1 They're going to to respond to it. How do you navigate you feeling good about it no matter what happens to it in the world?

Speaker 1 I will say before releasing, it's not so much a fear, but there's this sort of, there's this, maybe I don't experience actually where the fear is coming from, but there's a terrible unease.

Speaker 1 And I think usually before releasing an album,

Speaker 1 there's this awful purge of like cortisol that happens.

Speaker 1 And like, you know, I've talked to a lot of artists about this where like you're, you're in tears before the, before it happens and you're exhausted.

Speaker 1 and the catharsis that you'd hoped you would get from it never arrives, you know. And

Speaker 1 so, um,

Speaker 1 there is that.

Speaker 1 I think there

Speaker 1 has to be

Speaker 1 maybe there's just there is some resource that you pull from

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 1 brings you to a place where

Speaker 1 you are in

Speaker 1 absolute

Speaker 1 commitment to

Speaker 1 the fact that

Speaker 1 the work needs to exist.

Speaker 1 That it is, it doesn't matter what anybody has to say.

Speaker 1 The song wants to be written. The song has, in some ways, and I sometimes think of it like this when an idea comes through.
The song is asking to be written. It feels ready to be worked on.

Speaker 1 And to deny it that is

Speaker 1 kind of

Speaker 1 it's it's it's it going against your nature, what you know you kind of have to do, what you have decided you're here to do. And so there's something that is willing to be made.

Speaker 1 It's willing itself to be made through you. And it's like you either f ⁇ ing do it or don't.

Speaker 1 But don't sorry, excuse me, don't get annoyed when somebody else has the idea because there's a lot of parallel thinking in the world as well too.

Speaker 1 And someone else is going to put something similar out there. Exactly, yeah.
And that actually happened. I mean, artists.
talk about this. I've certainly experienced it.

Speaker 1 You have an idea for a song and six months later you hear it on the radio and

Speaker 1 somebody else has played with the themes that you were thinking of. And we're all living in the same similar societies.

Speaker 1 So it's a lot of parallel thinking comes in because we all have very similar stimuluses, whatever it is.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 you have to, there has to, I don't know, there is a, there's a resource that you pull from that that is just, you know, this needs to be made.

Speaker 1 Like, what was it like, you know, when you came out with your first song

Speaker 1 that was a mega hit? What was the feeling before that launched versus the most recent unreal on earth you know is the feeling still the same

Speaker 1 you know 12 years later is there a different feeling at this season of life as an artist um you know before you launched the the recent album and the feeling on the first song i was so like i was such an unknown and that i just was watching it's its uptake slowly but surely there was these moments where okay it was reaching another audience it was like oh my god it's like that the video has been seen by 10,000 people.

Speaker 1 Oh my god, that was a huge deal for me at the time.

Speaker 1 I think it was like

Speaker 1 on the first page of Reddit or something, which at the time was like, you know, huge. It was huge, you know, and then it was, then it was starting to be played.

Speaker 1 I think some of the earliest, I think the first, one of the first radio stations that played it in the States was like Alabama Mountain Radio.

Speaker 1 And like it was being shazammed and we were watching, like, somebody was telling me, oh, yeah, it's just been shazammed in like parts of the world, parts of the states that I, I've never been to the states.

Speaker 1 I'd never thought that I would be

Speaker 1 where the music would be heard.

Speaker 1 At this point, people in Ireland didn't know that I was an Irish artist, you know? Really? Yeah, honestly.

Speaker 1 I think the song had started to be played on Irish radio, but they assumed that I was

Speaker 1 an American import, you know, that I wasn't. They didn't know that I was from Ireland because I hadn't been releasing music all that long.
And then there was this kind of...

Speaker 1 this kind of dark sort of gospel rock sound, you know, on in that song. This kind of swampy sort of vibe.
And

Speaker 1 yeah, so

Speaker 1 it's different, you know, I think that you, there's, there's, sometimes you miss being the underdog a little bit, you know,

Speaker 1 there's a lot to be said for having to lose. Something to that feeling, right? Yeah, having nothing to lose.
The naive, like, oh, this is really exciting. It just.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, exactly. And

Speaker 1 feeling like

Speaker 1 every inch you gain is

Speaker 1 a huge deal and is a big win and you've nothing to lose. And

Speaker 1 you can prove everything, but also if nothing happens, it's like, it's okay. You know, go away, come back when you're ready, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 But it's, so it's trying to maintain that, maybe there's, there's something to be, you can still maintain that sort of mindset a little bit of like,

Speaker 1 I think when you,

Speaker 1 and this is also

Speaker 1 maybe something that you can,

Speaker 1 it's good to, to, to practice or to, to, to investigate or think about, is.

Speaker 1 When the stakes seem higher or you've like on your second or third release, you feel like if it doesn't do something for you that it's somehow you know it could be a success by the metrics of what you would think beforehand or anyone else's but we had you create this idea of like

Speaker 1 i don't know you just you want more from it or you you know so that's how do you navigate that like when you launch

Speaker 1 you know an album and it doesn't do the numbers in your mind like well i hope it does this many downloads or streams in the first month or year yeah if it doesn't do that or if it does do that how do you navigate that expectation?

Speaker 1 I think it's always just about, I try to just bring myself right back to, because you do, and you look, you work with, you partner up with business, like labels and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 And they wanted to win. You know, yeah.
And they're competitive by nature. And, and, um,

Speaker 1 and it's great that you have a team that, that, that thinks like that, that wants to bring your work to to a large audience. Um,

Speaker 1 and there's a lot of different ways that different artists will think about this, and independent artists maybe, you you know.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 what I have settled on is that if I believe in the work, I want to give it every chance that it can reach as many ears as possible and let those ears decide.

Speaker 1 And I just try to bring it back to the work. Do I believe in it?

Speaker 1 If I believe in it and I love it

Speaker 1 enough that I feel it's worth releasing, it's worth being out in the world. I'm at peace with it whether somebody listens to it or it doesn't.
I'm at peace with it if nobody listens to it.

Speaker 1 There's some songs that I'm quite proud of such that

Speaker 1 if they were heard by 100 people, I would say that song is still of the quality that I wanted it to be.

Speaker 1 The quality of the work doesn't change whether it's

Speaker 1 listened by a million people or a billion times or it's listened by

Speaker 1 a thousand people or a hundred people or ten people. The quality of the work doesn't change.

Speaker 1 So I just try to bring it down to am I happy with its quality? That's beautiful. I think that's a good lesson for any artist or author or anyone.
It's like, are you happy with the quality? Yes.

Speaker 1 If you have a career or a business around it, sure, you want to figure out a way to make money and survive.

Speaker 1 But I think you have to be proud of the quality of work, no matter if it sells millions of copies or one copy. Totally.
Totally. Does it represent you?

Speaker 1 That's beautiful. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Man, Andrew, there's a lot I would love to talk more about with you. We'll have to have you back on another time, but I want people to check out your new album on Real on Earth.

Speaker 1 I want them to come to watch you live on tour, man, which I'm going to do one of these days. Please do.

Speaker 1 They can go to hosier.com for your tour dates and everything like that. Is right? Yes, yeah.
Tour dates. Unfortunately,

Speaker 1 not many shows left.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 1 They can get notified when you do do more.

Speaker 1 Exactly. Exactly.
I'm curious, in the last decade, what has been the biggest transformation you've seen within yourself through this journey of success

Speaker 1 and experience and making all this art? And what is the biggest thing you still struggle with today? Stuff I've learned about myself

Speaker 1 is,

Speaker 1 I mean, I've done a lot of

Speaker 1 personal work. I used to think that

Speaker 1 realizing that

Speaker 1 creating, maybe this is one thing I can offer, that

Speaker 1 being creative and creating.

Speaker 1 And my relationship with

Speaker 1 myself was also,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 my relationship with the work is very often dependent on my relationship with myself.

Speaker 1 What do you mean by that?

Speaker 1 That

Speaker 1 it's a thing, it's like whether it's self-doubt or it's self-criticism, an internal monologue

Speaker 1 that is largely negative.

Speaker 1 Something I took for granted my whole life. It didn't catch up with me until a couple of years ago

Speaker 1 when I realized

Speaker 1 I honestly felt I was never going to write another song. Really? Yeah, sometimes during the pandemic,

Speaker 1 I hit this kind of wall where I couldn't move forward anymore. And I felt I'd written my very last song.

Speaker 1 And I had to come around to, okay, no,

Speaker 1 this is just, it's the same. voices, but they're just louder now because there's nothing to distract me, you know? So, and I think that was, you know, in the pandemic, that was was part of it.

Speaker 1 You weren't able to tour, you weren't able to go out and distract yourself. Not that tour is a distraction, but you weren't able to, you had to sit still now

Speaker 1 and hear everything coming in. Yeah, and in some ways, tour is a magnificent distraction.

Speaker 1 And it's a job in which you're constantly putting out fires, you know, and every day is another little crisis, you know, and you know, I still get, I won't say,

Speaker 1 would you call it stage fright, but like I'm still having to regulate my body constantly. I'm terrible.
You know what I mean? Every day is like, really? Oh, yeah, 10 minutes before stage.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm like, I can't do this. Yeah, yeah.
Come on. Yeah, yeah.
There's an element of like nerves and like, I am not able, I, you know, I'm not able to do this. It's so funny.

Speaker 1 I was joking with some of the band, and this is maybe a musician thing. We're two weeks, we had a few weeks' break.
I was a month into, a couple of weeks after break, and I was, I was trying to think.

Speaker 1 Now, this is maybe, because a lot of playing is muscle memory. You don't think about when it's automatic, you know?

Speaker 1 But I was trying to think to myself, it's like, how do I play that song on guitar? I said, I couldn't visualize, or I couldn't visualize a fretboard. I couldn't visualize finger movement.

Speaker 1 So, but yeah, no, there is, there's, um, there is, there is always this creeping voice that's,

Speaker 1 you know, and it's, look, it's immaterial. You, you, you find your way around it.
You find yourself. You step over it, you know, and you, and you ground yourself and stuff.
But, um,

Speaker 1 yeah, but in

Speaker 1 so.

Speaker 1 But creatively,

Speaker 1 I think when you are

Speaker 1 exactly as you describe, there was no distractions. Like in during the pandemic.

Speaker 1 But tour is, there's plenty. There's always something to do, whether it's press, promo, you know, meetings.
I'm oftentimes releasing music at the same time.

Speaker 1 So it's looking at artwork, media edits, mixes, mastering.

Speaker 1 And I'm constantly, I'll be honest, like constantly a little bit overwhelmed, like just a little bit under overwhelmed, you know, and like I'm just, the nose is like, you know, you're on the line.

Speaker 1 There's a nostril, you know. You can barely breathe, but I'm.
Yeah, yeah. And part of you know, it's also realizing, okay, is this by design? Am I trying to keep myself up here? Interesting.

Speaker 1 Because you didn't want to face yourself, maybe. Yeah, you just, yeah, you

Speaker 1 operate well in that space, or at least you function

Speaker 1 in that way. But yeah.

Speaker 1 Maybe it's not well, but you're like, you're operating. Yeah, you're operating, or you're, you're,

Speaker 1 yeah, you're operating. You're getting everything that needs to be done done.

Speaker 1 So a pandemic hits, and that all stops, and you have to face yourself. I guess so, yeah.

Speaker 1 What was the biggest fear that came to you when you weren't able to go on tour, you weren't seeing people and you had to turn around and face the parts of you that maybe you weren't aware of yet?

Speaker 1 I can't I can't recall exactly if it was a feeling of fear. There was a there was a feeling of maybe sorrow that came with it and sort of

Speaker 1 it's just a lowness, you know what I mean? Just a sort of a d a very like a you know and I think

Speaker 1 I think anybody who's maybe prone to sort of depressive episodes or is you know and would be familiar with it but it's this kind of I just slowed down in all in all in all forms and I just felt no root I saw no

Speaker 1 ability to to write nor it was and any any attempt to make it

Speaker 1 was seemed impossible. I also fully believe

Speaker 1 and this is a funny thing about when you're in that mindset, I fully believe that I could not, I did not know how to write a song, despite all evidence against it.

Speaker 1 I was like, oh, no, I actually don't know how to do this.

Speaker 1 How many songs have you written at this point? Oh, like, you know,

Speaker 1 probably, you know, over a hundred or, you know, obviously ones that don't get released. Right.
Like. Like, yeah, but like.

Speaker 1 Like, it's something I do all the time. But there's something that enters into the mind.
And I realize it's like, oh, no, this has nothing to do with this. This is something else.
So

Speaker 1 again, it's about relationship with self, you know, and

Speaker 1 so that was something I learned.

Speaker 1 What was your relationship with yourself like? I think I didn't have much of one, you know, so

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 it was more just realizing, okay, I'm going to have to cultivate a very positive relationship with myself, you know, and actually kind of put, you know, begin to address.

Speaker 1 the root of some of this stuff and put an arm around myself.

Speaker 1 So that was the beginning of of uh one of the more significant changes in in my life i would say is

Speaker 1 is tending to actually you know into by the time i was 30 actually like like tending to let's say mental health and a relationship with self and um which i had

Speaker 1 i had just avoided doing you know because i i i could sort of i felt like maybe i could work my way

Speaker 1 around it or I could I could you know but once you can't run anymore you know it's I'd sometimes describe it as a hamster wheel had to stop spinning. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 And so then you're forced to sit in your little cage. You know what I mean? So

Speaker 1 kind of look around and take it in and go, okay, something not right about this.

Speaker 1 What is the thing that you realized about your identity with yourself or your relationship to yourself when you no longer were chasing or on tour or distracted by facing?

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Speaker 1 Terms and conditions apply yourself. I think it was,

Speaker 1 I'd say you could say it was defined by a large, I had a very large, largely a combative relationship with myself. So I was absolutely at war with myself.
Constantly. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 How did that look like on a daily basis?

Speaker 1 It's like I couldn't have a thought without an opposing thought, you know? So it's like my brain was kind of split in two that

Speaker 1 I'd have a thought and then a thought to combat with that. So

Speaker 1 no, that's not real. That's not true.
This is the real truth. This is real.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Going back and forth.
Yeah. Or it's and but when

Speaker 1 in at times and like, I guess like your state, you know, you're not always, sometimes you're at a seven, some days are a three, some days are nine, some days are, you know,

Speaker 1 creatively, it's like that could really slow me down because it's like, I think this is a nice idea. I think this is beautiful.
No, it's not.

Speaker 1 You know, so I couldn't hold, I couldn't hold with one thought

Speaker 1 at the same time. oftentimes.
So it was, it was challenging. I won't go into the nitty and the gritty of like my whole experience, but

Speaker 1 that's probably for another, you know,

Speaker 1 but uh but no, it definitely put roadblocks up, you know, and

Speaker 1 so that was a big change when I started to address that. How did you navigate the process? And I'm assuming there wasn't, I mean, I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong, but

Speaker 1 I don't know if in Ireland growing up, there was a lot of talk around mental health and having a good relationship with yourself and a healthy identity.

Speaker 1 And, you know, I don't know if there was or not, but how did you learn to develop that then during that time without having any of those skills or tools for the first 30 years of your life?

Speaker 1 There wasn't. There wasn't really, you know,

Speaker 1 and especially it's not something even, I mean, more so my parents' generation would have had any sort of

Speaker 1 not, not really, you know,

Speaker 1 not in a kind of a, this is something we can talk about. It's a day-to-day thing, you know.
And I suck it up and let's not talk about it and keep moving forward and just everything is good.

Speaker 1 Bring 1970s.

Speaker 1 But I'm very grateful to sort of

Speaker 1 to

Speaker 1 have access to

Speaker 1 be more present in

Speaker 1 the day-to-day with my actual lived experiences as opposed to just

Speaker 1 having this kind of. Wow, man.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So you're allowed, I mean, I'm really grateful you're talking about this because

Speaker 1 I wrote a whole book called The Mask of Masculinity. Okay.

Speaker 1 Seven years ago now. Yeah.
Where,

Speaker 1 because growing up, I felt like I had to be, you know, this strong man. I could never cry.
I could never show my emotions in school, sports.

Speaker 1 And it tormented me inside. You know, it tormented me emotionally, feeling like I had to wear a mask to fit in and belong, but it wasn't my truest, authentic self.

Speaker 1 And when I hit about 30, that's when I started to unwind and start to navigate the therapy myself and reflect and heal.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 it was extremely challenging. It's probably the hardest thing I've ever done is to let go of those masks

Speaker 1 and open myself up to myself,

Speaker 1 turn around and look at all the parts of me that I was ashamed of or afraid of or scared of or insecure of and actually acknowledge them and look at them

Speaker 1 and start to heal the little boy inside of me that still had a lot of guards up and fears and insecurities and doubts and shame and angers and resentments and all these different things that I was not proud of and started to integrate my current self with my younger self

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 mend the wounds, the emotional or psychological wounds that were stored in the body and the nervous system

Speaker 1 to create alignment with the present and the now.

Speaker 1 And it was the most challenging thing I've ever done in my life, but it set me free.

Speaker 1 And as I'm sure you're in right now, healing is a journey. And I'm 10 years deep in the healing work and I've never felt more free.

Speaker 1 Also knowing that you can't just stop doing the work. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Like I still go to therapy every month. I still show up and allow myself to talk about it and process things in a healthy, conscious way, in a safe way.

Speaker 1 And I think it's really inspiring to hear you talking about this because I can only imagine the amount of pressures that artists feel

Speaker 1 to create art.

Speaker 1 And I think a lot of artists tend to create from pain or suffering, it seems like,

Speaker 1 rather than peace and joy.

Speaker 1 But it's probably challenging because you're sharing it with the world, but you also still need to deal with it yourself. And just

Speaker 1 probably a messy process. Yeah.

Speaker 1 The whole sharing from or writing from, also, let me just, I just want to address, it's like, thank you, thank you for

Speaker 1 sharing that. And it's, it's, uh, it's, it is, it's beautiful.
It's also, it's, it's, it's very similar to what you, what you describe. And I think I was 30 also.

Speaker 1 It took me 30 years of living in a way where we, where I realized, oh, I can't do this anymore. I can't live like this anymore.
And

Speaker 1 I've waited too long to feel like

Speaker 1 I can

Speaker 1 I can cope you know what I mean and and um it isn't interesting that no amount of success or money or fame will give you that peace or freedom that you're looking for yeah 100% isn't that interesting yeah but I think a lot of people I don't think that's what you were doing I don't think you were chasing that

Speaker 1 you were being an artist and it took off yeah but I think a lot of people in society and the world are looking to accelerate their career, to have more status, to make more money, to have, you know,

Speaker 1 flashier things or success to fulfill a part of them that is insecure or afraid or doubting something.

Speaker 2 And the more

Speaker 1 I did that and the more others do that, it doesn't solve the problem.

Speaker 1 You still have to turn around and look at yourself at some point. Totally.
And I think it's largely unconscious and this driving, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 But that sort of thing of drive, and I do think about this a lot, whether would I be driven to be you know because surely the work it's this question is surely the work is enough like if I just if I just loved songs and and I just wanted to write them do I need everybody to hear them you know what's what's what's the point why go on tour why do this why do the yeah yeah you know why did I why did I need it so there is I sometimes wonder you know um

Speaker 1 what part of me needed to be witnessed, you know, or what what

Speaker 1 you know, and I think a lot of people who are driven towards work in the public view,

Speaker 1 I'm not saying everybody, I'm just saying generally, I think you might be correct in that

Speaker 1 there is a dr there

Speaker 1 all of us are driven in some way from maybe some unobserved place that

Speaker 1 in some way that all of us think, okay, if I get this thing or I do this thing, all my problems will be solved.

Speaker 1 We all imagine this picture in our in our heads, you know, of

Speaker 1 that arrival point that just never comes.

Speaker 1 Or you get there, you'll see the picture and it'll align with the picture in your mind and then you and but the feeling is is is not there or it's still not enough yeah you still want more yeah or you're still comparing to what your peer might be doing oh they're getting this opportunity right yeah yeah totally and it's something um

Speaker 1 you shared about about you know that thing it's kind of that self-parenting thing of like getting relationship with yourself as a child and a friend of mine once described described it quite quite beautifully i have to say of like

Speaker 1 getting to this point in that process of then looking out from some moment of their life and just reminding pausing to remind themselves to invite their child to watch it with them

Speaker 1 and to to stand in space either whether through the the window of their of their home or at some event that they were at and to imagine in their mind's eye that their child was there to say hey look you know look where we are you did this you know and i i'm quite moved by that just to just to bring your child into that and go like

Speaker 1 because there's some there's some sometimes there's a there's this sort of switch that happens where we think no i took i took myself away from these circumstances and i did all of this on my own but to turn around to your kid and say hey you know i want you to see this wow and how how great you did you know and how you you did this you know and we did this together isn't this cool and just to to let your kid sort of smile at that

Speaker 1 beautiful.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and I think it's that one, I think that is a life-changing relationship thing, you know, I think, with yourself, if you can do that.

Speaker 1 But again, yeah,

Speaker 1 I had no language for this until I was after a few years ago. Yeah, until a couple of years ago.
So I'm still,

Speaker 1 my reluctance also to speak too much on it is because I'm so early in it, you know, for him. Wow, man, this is beautiful.
I'm so happy you're talking about this, though.

Speaker 1 And don't feel and don't feel like you need to open up about things here or anywhere until you feel you've processed things enough. And you may never need to do that publicly either.

Speaker 1 It's just I appreciate it. Yeah, yeah, it's not a

Speaker 1 pressure here for that in any way.

Speaker 1 But it sounds like you are in a journey of creating a healthy relationship with self. It's what I'm hearing you say.
Yeah,

Speaker 1 I think so. I think so.

Speaker 1 I'm realizing that it's also imperative for the work I want to make. And it's also, it's like, it's a, it's like like to not do it.

Speaker 1 I think whatever, when you start on, on that, by the time you're ready to sort of do your own little work on yourself, you're ready to realize that not doing this isn't an option, you know, or not, you know, or it's an option, but you've done that, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Or

Speaker 1 for what, what's ahead of you and what it is that you want for your life and you feel

Speaker 1 the

Speaker 1 the experience of living that you would like to get to, it's like you realize, okay, I just kind of have to do this.

Speaker 1 What do you think, andrew is available for you emotionally

Speaker 1 internally and externally in the world

Speaker 1 as you continue to navigate this healing journey for yourself what do you feel like is available for you or your mission i think it's this is maybe not just necessary for the for the work as well too for being creative i just want to walk in step with myself um

Speaker 1 in a way that that feels aligned with myself and aligned with the work

Speaker 1 um

Speaker 1 and to to

Speaker 1 I guess, to feel at peace in whatever the work is that needs to be made.

Speaker 1 Have you ever been out of alignment with yourself in this last decade with anything you've created or opportunities you've said yes to where you fall afterwards, that's not really what I wanted to do,

Speaker 1 but I did it for ego or because whatever reason. It happens.
I won't give examples. It happens.
Or you catch yourself. You catch yourself in a thought of like,

Speaker 1 yeah, there's always this sort of one more stone uh to turn you know it's like i always approached things with like leave no stone unturned it's like you know just do everything yeah and every opportunity yeah a little bit yeah or that can be draining exhausting it can be draining yeah and it's learning to say no to stuff is something that i'm still cultivating a relationship with yeah or the habit of i think um

Speaker 1 Yeah, or

Speaker 1 I'm a real,

Speaker 1 and I think this is an, I'm proud of this trait in myself, but that extra hour that I'll put in or that extra 30 minutes or that extra hour,

Speaker 1 I can focus, hyper-focus on something in those last few, you know, but, but

Speaker 1 what happens is sometimes I'll agree to do something. I'll be fully in my mind of like, I do want to do this.
It's like, will you do a little bit extra here and add more rather than take this break?

Speaker 1 Will I use this time to work? And it's like, yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that.
And then

Speaker 1 afterwards, I realize, okay, why am I feeling exhausted? You know, why am I burnt down? And now I can't function. You know, I can't work as I want to work.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I do want to address, you know, hopefully get a repast.

Speaker 1 This has been a powerful section, so I'm grateful we're talking about this, but I have a question about

Speaker 1 a couple of the things around your performance experience.

Speaker 1 I feel like... I hope they get to come watch you perform live sometime because I feel like it's a spiritual experience for the audience to watch what you do.

Speaker 1 I'm curious for you, what has been the most spiritual experience you've had while performing on stage where you felt like

Speaker 1 something is different here. I'm feeling something different.

Speaker 1 There's an energy that is elevated at a different level than I've ever been to, or maybe I'm seeing myself from a different place or I'm forgetting the words, but I'm singing the word.

Speaker 1 Like, was there ever a spiritual experience for you that was so big and awe-inspiring while performing? There's definitely moving, moving experiences.

Speaker 1 I was going to joke that I think the spiritual experience is for to be in the crowd. I've been in shows and I've, and I've, I've been in such elation.

Speaker 1 I've been like so ecstatic and kind of lifted by being in crowd energy and

Speaker 1 all enjoying the same thing. And maybe I was going to make a joke.
It's like, it's like the preacher is the least spiritual of all people. you know

Speaker 1 at the person at the top it's everyone else is engaging in a spiritual experience

Speaker 1 preacher is I'm just kidding but like but I think when I'm on stage

Speaker 1 there's a kind of a flow state you know that you hope to come into and it that's another thing where it's like

Speaker 1 calming my mind and this is all connected it's all connected with mental health it's all connected with like wellness but then also like

Speaker 1 and mindfulness as well too and mindfulness was a big change for me.

Speaker 1 It was realizing how many conversations were going on, how unpresent my mind was, you know, even sometimes when I was on stage and wanting to just, yeah,

Speaker 1 it can happen. It can happen.
And realizing I,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 1 remaining grounded on stage, remaining present on stage. So you're not

Speaker 1 so meditating before shows I find really, really helpful.

Speaker 1 How would you get distracted on stage before?

Speaker 1 It can happen where, again, if I'm releasing music,

Speaker 1 there's a lot of emails that I have an unanswered. I swear to God.
Before you're like, oh, thinking about it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but you could be on stage in the middle of a song, playing a chord and singing lyrics. And in your mind, I'm not present in that.
I'm thinking, it's happened where I'm like, I didn't email back.

Speaker 1 Come on.

Speaker 1 Really? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Holy cow. Yeah.
Oh, no, you're doing laundry lists in your head while you're in the middle of like singing a song and the crowd are doing their thing. How is that even possible? How do you stay?

Speaker 1 I mean, how can you create a performance while thinking about the email you got to send to Larry

Speaker 1 and management or social family?

Speaker 1 It's not great. It's like, and I don't, I think that, I think the show potentially, my worry is that the show, I think because it's muscle memory,

Speaker 1 you just can do it.

Speaker 1 But it's, it's, it doesn't, you don't feel great about the, about the show, you don't, because you weren't present in it, you know?

Speaker 1 So it's been a while now since I would, there's also, also, that's kind of before, that's when my mind was totally just like haywire.

Speaker 1 So mindfulness, you know, meditation and stuff. And

Speaker 1 super happy. That helps you keep you present now on stage.
On stage, yeah.

Speaker 4 I think creating and sharing my art has brought me more clarity, more peace, more presence, more compassion, more self-awareness.

Speaker 4 And it's made me feel connected to others in a way that nothing else has.

Speaker 4 I would say emotion is energy in motion.

Speaker 4 So it has to move.

Speaker 4 And if it doesn't move, it gets trapped inside of us and it can become disease,

Speaker 4 you know, disease.

Speaker 4 Or you take it out on somebody in traffic for no reason.

Speaker 4 So you have to find ways to move the energy and to share the stories that are trapped in your mind and in your heart and your body. And there's many modalities to do that.
You can do breath work.

Speaker 4 You can, you know, do yoga. You can go to boxing even and have an intention behind your practice.
You can,

Speaker 4 I don't know, meditate, go to therapy. There's plenty of avenues, but one that is

Speaker 4 underused. is creativity.

Speaker 4 You can create and move the energy and you can alchemize those things that are trapped inside of you so that they transform into something else, and you can feel energetically lighter and more free.

Speaker 1 What is the poem that you've written, whether it be recently or in the beginning of your creative process, that is giving you the most healing personally?

Speaker 1 Like when you wrote it, you felt you were healing. Every time you read it or perform it, you feel like you're healing.
What is that poem?

Speaker 4 Well, I have two immediate answers that come to mind. The first one is

Speaker 4 a poem about my father not being around and ultimately finding forgiveness. But I think that that's too easy of an answer.
Okay. And the real answer is going to sound cliche, but it's everyone.

Speaker 4 And then the next one.

Speaker 4 the one that hasn't been written. Because it's the most current and in real time to my life.
And whatever it is that I choose to create around is something that I need to express.

Speaker 4 It's a breadcrumb trail that I am following. I'm the first person in my audience.
So I'm not thinking what other people want to hear.

Speaker 4 I'm paying attention in my daily life to when I get moved, when I get inspired, when I get pissed off, and I pluck it out of reality and I put it down on paper.

Speaker 4 And then if I go back to that beginning place, the rest of the poem will almost write itself if I give it enough time and space. Interesting.
So, every single one is a healing process.

Speaker 4 And it's one of the reasons I like to facilitate for other people to do the same thing because if they choose something moving and meaningful, it can be surprisingly healing.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 You have another quote or poem that you put online that says, How do we talk about the problems without feeding them? If we ignore them, we most likely keep repeating them.

Speaker 1 If we explore them, we run the risk of reinforcing them. So,

Speaker 1 how then do we get down to the source of them? So

Speaker 1 if we talk about our problems or write about them or create about them, are we feeding the problem or are we solving the problem by processing them?

Speaker 1 How do we not recreate old traumas or memories or wounds by sharing stories over and over again that we're trying to heal from?

Speaker 4 That is a great...

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Speaker 4 Question. What you have to do is you have to hold two truths in the same space at the same time.

Speaker 1 Give me an example personally.

Speaker 4 Holding on and letting go. When I wrote the piece about my father,

Speaker 4 it was a piece about my anger and ultimately forgiveness and gratitude, but I wasn't able to actualize it until many, many years later. It took me a long time to catch up with the piece.

Speaker 4 So the piece was almost like a prayer.

Speaker 4 You have to purge and pray

Speaker 4 simultaneously. And if you do,

Speaker 4 I promise you, you will wind up feeling like a different person on the other side. And then when you share it with somebody and you're unconditionally loved and seen,

Speaker 4 to really like see and be seen, to be willing to be open, to be willing to be vulnerable from a place of strength, it's scary as f.

Speaker 1 And it is always worth it. Wow.
So when did you write this poem about your dad?

Speaker 4 I think I was in my mid-20s. Really?

Speaker 1 Yeah. So like 20 years ago?

Speaker 4 Something like that. Something like that.
45. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So when you wrote it,

Speaker 1 how long did it take for you to fully feel at peace with the relationship you had with him or lack of relationship you had with him? How long did it take for you to be like, I'm at peace with this?

Speaker 1 I forgive. I'm at peace.

Speaker 4 Well, I think people think that peace is a destination

Speaker 4 or like a product.

Speaker 1 Peace is a process.

Speaker 4 There's stages of peace. There's layers that you have to keep uncovering within yourself.
So right now, I can say I am as fully at peace as I have ever been. I can't say that I am fully at peace.

Speaker 4 But one thing that I know about my life is every single thing that has ever happened to me, whether I understood it or not,

Speaker 4 in real time or in retrospect has become a part of the quilt of who I am.

Speaker 4 I don't like to compare circumstances, I don't like to compare pain, but I've had a lot of pain in my life, and everything that caused me pain is a part of my identity now.

Speaker 4 So, if I reject that thing, I'm rejecting a part of who I am. Wow, yeah,

Speaker 4 and so you have to accept it in order to integrate it, in order to alchemize it, in order to move on with it.

Speaker 1 What's the most painful thing that you've had to overcome emotionally or internally

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 1 maybe it took you a long time to overcome or maybe it just was a really painful thing to overcome

Speaker 1 and you really wish didn't happen

Speaker 1 in the moment. And maybe you still don't wish, but you know you wouldn't be the identity you are and the man you are without that pain.

Speaker 4 I think there's a lot of them that come to mind.

Speaker 4 I'm not going to share some of them because I'm not ready to put them on display yet. But I go into a lot of those stories in the album and ultimately in the journal.

Speaker 4 You know, when I created the Never Ending Now album, I wasn't sure whether or not I wanted anybody to hear it. I know.

Speaker 4 Remember, you know, I was there because you were one of the few people that I sent it to and was willing to trust

Speaker 4 because of your integrity, because of our friendship, and because I love you. And I know you've been through real things.

Speaker 4 And so I was like, okay.

Speaker 1 But it's scary putting it out there.

Speaker 4 A hundred percent. Yeah.
I'm taking my own medicine.

Speaker 4 You know, so I was like, all right, let me, I finished this thing,

Speaker 4 this work of art that was like

Speaker 4 a reflection of my path to self-love and love with a partner through poetry and this conversation that was very intimate that I had with my wife.

Speaker 4 And then I was like, I don't know that I want to show this to people

Speaker 4 or

Speaker 4 even weirder, monetize this thing

Speaker 4 and leave it open for people to criticize it, to judge it, to validate it, to compliment it. It didn't really matter what their response was.

Speaker 4 I didn't want to externalize my self-worth that way because it was so close to my heart.

Speaker 4 And then I was like, all right, I'm going to send it to like five people. And I sent it to five people,

Speaker 4 including you and Mike Posner, who's a great friend. And Mike was the first person that got back to me.
And my criteria for sending it out was: okay,

Speaker 4 if one person

Speaker 4 hears the album and hits me back and says, hey, this was moving and meaningful to me,

Speaker 4 like this landed,

Speaker 4 then I would put it out.

Speaker 4 But if everybody was like, Yeah, this is good,

Speaker 1 I really like it. I think you should, then I wasn't going to do it.

Speaker 4 And so Mike hit me back right away and he was like, literally, he goes, if you don't put this album out, he said, I'll pry it out of your cold, dead hands.

Speaker 4 And then I had sent it to you guys, and you listened to it and had, you know, a similar but different response.

Speaker 4 Then I was like, all right, let me, let me lead by example, even though it's hard and scary.

Speaker 1 Why is it so hard for most people to put out something that is their art or their expression, but also has sadness, pain, loss, embarrassment tied to it in some way?

Speaker 1 Why is that so challenging for anyone, let alone artists?

Speaker 4 Because they're scared to be rejected for

Speaker 4 truly showing us who they are.

Speaker 1 But the thing is, like,

Speaker 4 if I get rejected, if I put this project out and people don't respond to it, or worse, they really don't like it,

Speaker 4 then at least I know they don't like something that's really me.

Speaker 4 I mean, I know that the art is separate from me. It's not really me, but it is as close as tracing paper could come when I made it.
Right.

Speaker 4 And so I'm like, all right, if they don't like it, at least I know I showed up

Speaker 4 rather than

Speaker 4 making something that's perfect, that everybody's going to love.

Speaker 4 And then they say, wow, I love this thing and I love you, but I don't even feel it because I was never there.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It wasn't fully authentic.
It wasn't fully you.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Interesting.

Speaker 4 How do you do that? Like, for example, I was thinking about many things that you have shared over the years driving over here and the courage that it took to do that.

Speaker 4 What was and is your process?

Speaker 1 I think a lot of it was

Speaker 1 when I started opening up about vulnerable things to individuals, to friends, to family, and then kind of publicly, you know, my expression to the world in different ways. I think I was

Speaker 1 so depressed. You know, this line from like Jim Carrey comes to me where it's like, depression is like you needing deep rest from the character you've been playing.

Speaker 1 Something like that. It's like you are depressed because you need deep rest from the character you've been playing.

Speaker 1 It's like you've been wearing some mask, you've been putting on some identity that's not truly you. Maybe parts of you are out there, but not all of you.

Speaker 1 And so a lot of me was out there, but there were other parts of me that were afraid if

Speaker 1 you or anyone actually knew who I was, what I'd been through, what had happened to me, would anyone like me or love me? And that was the ultimate fear. If people truly knew, they would never like me.

Speaker 1 And then I would be alone. And then I would die alone and suffer for the rest of my life.
It's kind of the fear that I had. And so I think I just felt like

Speaker 1 I'd rather be alone

Speaker 1 and no one like me than everyone know,

Speaker 1 you know, just parts of me and not all of me. And I think it got to that point when I hit 30 that I realized there were parts of me that people weren't aware of.

Speaker 1 And I wasn't willing to face them myself, let alone share them with other people.

Speaker 1 And that just wasn't the life I wanted to live anymore.

Speaker 1 Now, it was scary on the other end because I didn't want to live alone and I didn't want to have people not like me or love me or accept me.

Speaker 1 But I think that's the risk probably every artist has to take to put their expression out there that you may not be liked or understood or loved.

Speaker 1 You may be criticized or hated or whatever might be, you know, taken advantage of for who you truly are. And I think that's the biggest fear.

Speaker 1 But I'd rather feel free and have no friends than be a prisoner and have everyone like me.

Speaker 4 I very much relate to that. I have a line that says, you have to be willing not to be liked in order to be loved.

Speaker 4 Otherwise, it's your representative they're thinking of. It's like

Speaker 4 that disguise thing that you're talking about, that character that you're playing, and you're doing it for good reasons.

Speaker 4 Survival.

Speaker 4 you know, mental, emotional, physical, spiritual. If you felt unsafe in your life, that's where the character came from.
Exactly. But the thing is, it's exhausting to walk around with all that armor.

Speaker 4 Draining.

Speaker 1 What was that? What's that poem called

Speaker 1 that you were just

Speaker 4 called Bird Song? You know, I never really like name my pieces until I actually put them out. Can you share that one?

Speaker 1 Can you perform that one? Do you have that one?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I actually do.

Speaker 4 The birds aren't singing to win a Grammy,

Speaker 4 They're not trying to go platinum through their marketing or planning. They're just jamming.

Speaker 4 I listen without even understanding.

Speaker 4 The truth without agenda is authentically astounding.

Speaker 4 It makes me think of cheetahs.

Speaker 4 They don't run for our approval.

Speaker 4 They don't judge their spots or contemplate laser hair removal.

Speaker 4 It makes me think of wolves. They don't howl for validation.

Speaker 4 They don't have to get the perfect pic to post on their vacation.

Speaker 4 It makes me think of eagles. They're not soaring to impress me.

Speaker 4 Although once I saw a dolphin backflip over a jet ski, my point is, neither one of them would sell me shit on Etsy, and I doubt a porcupine would ever try to come off sexy.

Speaker 4 Humans

Speaker 4 are the only animals pretending to be something that they're not. Wow.

Speaker 4 Why are we ashamed of what we've got? We should strut, chest out, head up. Let's be proud of ourselves for once.

Speaker 4 Isn't it exhausting sticking out your butt and sucking in your gut? And for what? It's a waste of energy. I'm giving up.
In this moment, I'm enough. In this moment, you're enough.

Speaker 4 In this moment, we're enough. I'm dismantling my image.

Speaker 4 We are perfect in our flaws.

Speaker 4 Birds don't care whether we listen. They don't wait for our applause.
I have built a lovely prison, but I live behind the walls. So if love is my religion, I'll escape when freedom calls.

Speaker 4 You have to be willing not to be liked in order to be loved.

Speaker 4 Otherwise, it's your representative they're thinking of.

Speaker 4 But to truly be yourself, you have to let go of what was. The past is like a prison.

Speaker 4 It's an echo repeating just because, cause, cause, we are many people in our lives, so I'm not one to judge, but if they love one part of you, it's limited to what that does.

Speaker 1 I want your whole soul.

Speaker 1 I have no gold.

Speaker 4 Show me the unseen stuff.

Speaker 4 Don't invite me over only after you have cleaned up. Perfect makes me want to kick my feet up.
No one's living in a catalog IKEA dreamed up. Have you ever seen a lion chase a hundred zebras?

Speaker 4 Have you ever seen a turtle hide inside a shell? A caterpillar doesn't know that she'll become a butterfly. So if you go to heaven, are you still aware of hell?

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 When did you write that one?

Speaker 4 I don't remember.

Speaker 1 Is it like a few years ago or is this like a decade ago?

Speaker 4 I mean, no, it's more a few years ago.

Speaker 1 It's more recent, yeah.

Speaker 4 I was on the phone with a friend of mine, and uh,

Speaker 4 the birds were just like really loud.

Speaker 4 And during the conversation, I said something about the birds aren't singing to win a Grammy. Wow.
And then I thought, you know what? I like that. That's a good idea.

Speaker 1 I see a lot.

Speaker 4 I paused the conversation. I wrote it down and then started to build on it later.

Speaker 1 Of all the poems that you've written and performed, how many of them talk about love?

Speaker 4 I think all of them in some form or fashion, but I think some of them are self-love, some of them are romantic love, some of them are love of God, some of them are love of humanity, nature, all of it.

Speaker 1 What would you say, how long have you been doing poetry? Would you say, like officially, you know,

Speaker 1 as part of your thing?

Speaker 4 Not just like, I did it when I was like seven, a little bit here and there but like what was the year where you're like oh i'm doing this consistently do you remember i mean i think i'm past 30 years 30 years yeah it's like one of the longest at least internal relationships of my life wow you know my my relationship with rhythm and rhyme

Speaker 4 yeah

Speaker 1 what do you feel like has been the biggest

Speaker 1 lesson around self-love in the last 30 years of writing and performing poetry that you've discovered and had to learn?

Speaker 4 Well, it's something that I try to teach other people.

Speaker 4 Like when I facilitate for the poetry workshops in person, and why we created this journal in partnership with Passion Planner to scale those workshops without me having to be there, I automatically take away anybody's blocks by saying, Don't try to make something great,

Speaker 4 Make something true.

Speaker 4 And if you make something true, it will automatically be great.

Speaker 4 And I'm telling people stuff that I need to relearn over and over and over again. Because if I sit down and I say, I'm going to make something great,

Speaker 4 I'm just getting in my own way. I'm turning my back on the muse.

Speaker 4 I have to be willing to just take the ride. Some of the best poems for me

Speaker 4 are poems where I'm surprised at where they go.

Speaker 1 Really?

Speaker 4 Yeah, because I don't get overly strategic before I start writing. I just start in some sort of a spark and then see what fire it turns into.

Speaker 1 So it might be, okay, I heard the birds sing and you thought of this idea. You know, maybe you're on the phone with a music person and you're like, oh, they're not singing to Joanna Grammy.

Speaker 1 And you're like, okay, where could I take this in other areas of life? Is that kind of how it starts?

Speaker 4 Or yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay, the birds are this, the wolves, this, the bears, the this, you know, it's like, let's keep the analogies going, and then, yeah, it's like basically you're building um railroad tracks,

Speaker 4 and you're the railroad tracks,

Speaker 4 and you're the train, and you're the conductor,

Speaker 4 and you're the beginning, middle, and end the destination, wherever you wind up. Um, and you're also none of those things because you're the observer.
Wow.

Speaker 4 So it's a spiritual practice, creativity.

Speaker 1 You have this other,

Speaker 1 do you call them poems when you put something online? Like an Instagram post? Is that like a short poem or is that like a phrase within a poem usually?

Speaker 4 Well,

Speaker 4 yes, it's usually a phrase within a much larger poem, which is, to be quite honest, very annoying to me.

Speaker 4 You know, I want, of course, please follow me on Instagram. But it's like, I I always feel like it's a truncated version of what the art is.

Speaker 4 And that's why I'm excited to put out actual, like, finished pieces that people can experience on their own time. So it's a great window into my work, but I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 Snippets, it's not the full thing. You have this,

Speaker 4 you know,

Speaker 1 poem within a poem, I guess you call it, about love that you shared recently. It said, love is not a guarantee.
It will come and it will leave.

Speaker 1 It relies on your belief, so it will bring you to your knees. Love is weak, love is lost.
Love is grief, love is loss. Love is risk, love is real, but love is worth the pain we feel.

Speaker 1 Where did that come from?

Speaker 4 Let me say the next line. Yes.
And I won't let the fear of losing you limit how I'm loving you. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 Can you share that whole poem?

Speaker 4 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Let me actually give you the behind the context.

Speaker 1 Give me the context.

Speaker 4 So I was doing this collaboration piece,

Speaker 4 and it was like a marketing team and a brand that were involved in this project. I don't want to go into the specifics because it really doesn't matter.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 But they had liked this particular poem that had already been written. And it ends,

Speaker 4 Save the Day with Love.

Speaker 4 So we're on this like planning call about the piece of art collaborative project that we're doing. And one of the guys goes, Hey, is there any way we can change the final word?

Speaker 4 Because he goes, Love is a bit soft. And he goes, I want to end on something that has more like strength and pizzazz.

Speaker 4 And I was like,

Speaker 1 no, because it's not your poem. First of all,

Speaker 4 no.

Speaker 4 Respectfully. Second of all, I don't look at love as soft.

Speaker 4 I said I look at love as hard.

Speaker 4 And he goes, okay. And then the conversation ended and I hung up and I wrote this piece.
Love is not soft. Love is hard.
Love is not smooth. Love is scarred.
Love is not perfect.

Speaker 1 Love is flawed.

Speaker 4 Love is not quiet. Love is loud.
Love is not pride. Love is proud.
But love is not certain. Love is doubt.

Speaker 4 And love is not leaving, love's turning around, love's learning to fight for the middle ground. Love is not gentle, love is rough, love is not fragile, love is tough.

Speaker 4 Love is not thinking that love is enough. So I choose to love you harder from the moment I wake up.

Speaker 4 Love is a revolutionary act.

Speaker 4 Love is an attack. Love is not abstract.
Love is a fact. Love is saying yes when I want to say no.
Love is saying stay when I want to say go. Love is staying high even when I get low.

Speaker 4 Love is going with the flow, holding on and letting go. Because love is not easy.

Speaker 4 Love is complex.

Speaker 4 Love is not right or wrong. Love is context.
Love is not black or white. Love is progress.
Because love is not a product. Love is a process, yes?

Speaker 4 So in in the simple moments, when the chaos fades away, in the silence of the evening or the empty of my day, I remember what it feels like to give my heart away and think how lucky I have been to get to love someone this way.

Speaker 4 And how lucky we still are to get to love someone this way. It's a miracle to be alive.
That's why I have to say love is not a guarantee. It will come and it will leave.

Speaker 4 It relies on my belief. So it will bring me to my knees.
Love is weak. Love is lost.
Love is grief. Love is lost.
Love is risk. Love is real.
But love is worth the pain I feel.

Speaker 4 And I won't let the fear of losing you limit how I'm loving you.

Speaker 4 I'm going to love you harder. It's a privilege to be hugging you.
I'm going to love you harder more than ever before. I'm at peace with knowing love is war.
That's what we're fighting for.

Speaker 1 So love harder.

Speaker 4 First yourself, then your family, your friends, your co-workers, your neighbors, and your community. Then try to love a stranger.
Try to tap into your empathy.

Speaker 4 Imagine that you've known them and protected them since infancy.

Speaker 4 Now try to love the people that you don't love at all.

Speaker 4 Even people you don't like, they probably need it most of all.

Speaker 4 And if you can't love them big,

Speaker 4 see if you can love them small.

Speaker 4 See if you can hold compassion for the souls that they are. And they are.
But love is not soft. Love is hard.
Love is scarred. Love is flawed.
Love is loud. Love is proud.
Love is doubt.

Speaker 4 And since love

Speaker 4 is most important when we do not know how,

Speaker 4 I will choose to love you harder in the never-ending now. Wow.

Speaker 1 Holy cow.

Speaker 1 I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.

Speaker 1 Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links.

Speaker 1 And if you want weekly, exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts.

Speaker 1 Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review.

Speaker 1 I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward.

Speaker 1 And I want to remind you: if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something

Speaker 2 great.

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