The Secret That Built a $100 Million Portfolio in 5 Years | Casey Ryan Quinn

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Speaker 5 All right, science flipping podcast listeners. As always, this episode is brought to you by RocketLead.ai.

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Speaker 5 What is up, Science Fluent family? I am back with an incredible guest, a close friend of mine. This man has over a thousand doors.
He's been doing this for over a decade.

Speaker 5 He's an expert real estate investor, but he's also a licensed accountant. He knows his damn numbers.
Casey, Ryan Quinn, is in the house. What's up, guy?

Speaker 5 I had to make sure I wanted to throw that Ryan in here to make sure, you know, who you are.

Speaker 6 So our guy Ken always makes fun of it now from whenever I'm on stage at boredom. Casey Ryan Quinn.
Casey, right?

Speaker 5 I mean, that's why we're going to do it. So first of all, go follow this man.

Speaker 6 I talk to him a lot about, you know, buying more and more property.

Speaker 5 So if you are buying any level, whether you're flipping, whether you're buying and holding,

Speaker 5 You need to know your numbers, and we're going to dive into it.

Speaker 5 But first, where does your real estate portfolio stand right now?

Speaker 6 Yeah, man, we're up over 100 million. And it's funny, you said I've been doing this over a decade.
Yes, I've definitely been doing finance and accounting over a decade, but

Speaker 6 tomorrow marks five years since I started investing in real estate. So in five years, we've been able to build over $100 million portfolio.
To your point,

Speaker 6 we're rate approaching $1,000, not quite there. We've definitely sold a bunch.
We've done a bunch of flips and things, but we would have been at over $1,000 if we'd ever sold anything.

Speaker 6 But sometimes we'll be there soon enough. We've got another 40-unit deal we're closing this week.

Speaker 6 You know, we're buying we buy three properties, we're buying a property every three days at this point, a single-family home in our local market. So, it uh grows quickly at this point.

Speaker 5 So, are you more focused on single-family or multi?

Speaker 6 Like as a

Speaker 6 I would say both. I mean, we're making some moves here to get into the multifamily space.
It's been tough over the last year. We did in February buy our largest deal to date, which was a 98-unit deal.

Speaker 6 Yeah, um, really cool deal.

Speaker 6 I got 95% seller financing by structuring it absolutely wildly.

Speaker 6 We took over the existing LLC as the GP restructured the whole thing. 50 G is in legal on that one, but so some money out of pocket.
Yeah, I mean, listen, we bought it for $7.5 million.

Speaker 6 Right now, today, it's worth a little over $9 million, significantly under market rents as it sits as well. So

Speaker 6 the really weird caveat to it all is there's a stipulation of the

Speaker 6 gentleman that owns the property that is now an LP on the deal that structured the entire deal manages it on behalf of his mom.

Speaker 6 and so they're essentially not selling it if you will and we're able to create this arrangement uh until mom unfortunately decides to no longer be with follow jesus and god to to another world so do you so when a deal like that has to get that creative do you get in the trenches and and structure the deal yourself oh that was 100 me i love deal structuring especially on the multi the single family stuff you know i typically don't get involved with the structuring i manage over top we burn most of those based right yeah and i haven't seen 200 grams i mean the financing stuff, I'm definitely still involved with.

Speaker 6 I have all our banking relationships. You know, I review all of the underwriting before it goes to the bank.

Speaker 6 So I still do that. I mean, that's probably an hour every three weeks.
It's not a lot anymore because we have such a routine. But the multifamily stuff, I'm still very actively involved.

Speaker 6 That specific deal, I was involved from day one. Early on negotiations, I handled the entire negotiations.
I handled deal structuring. I even managed the legal on it all because it was so complicated.

Speaker 6 But the 40-unit deal, for instance, you know, I wasn't as involved. I don't handle, you know, the basic underwriting.
I review it all. I don't handle the due diligence anymore.

Speaker 6 I don't even handle the attorneys. My COO handles that.

Speaker 6 So we'll buy a 40-unit deal where I probably spent five to 10 hours total on it.

Speaker 6 So, yeah, we've been able to really build a good infrastructure, right? Because again, it's all about me finding my time to manage my team because we have such good numbers.

Speaker 6 We have such good bookkeeping that we understand our business and don't necessarily have to be tried by fire, if you will.

Speaker 5 So you're ahead of me in terms of where I want to get. And there's so many, as I'm growing, and like we're going to buy another apartment here, I think we close the end of this month.

Speaker 5 So that's like three apartments in this year alone.

Speaker 6 That's great. It's not ahead of most.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it's not high door counts, right? Like, so this one's 16 units or whatever. But my point to this is...
The more I delve into the commercial side, there's so many ways to structure it.

Speaker 5 And why I say that is because Grant Cardone last month or last week or whatever just funded the largest all-cash apartment in the state of Florida for $150 million. Wow.

Speaker 5 I'm pretty sure I understand his structure. He goes ahead and gets a fund.
He raises it through the fund, buys it all cash.

Speaker 6 Yeah. He also.

Speaker 6 Which right now is a really good idea.

Speaker 6 We're actually in the middle of conversations, a couple partners and I, where we're going to go after big multi and we're doing it that way as well, where we're going to close all cash through investor capital that we raise and then quickly turn it to refinance it on bank maybe a year or two years later.

Speaker 5 So that's what I was going to go. So

Speaker 5 his model, he takes a pretty large acquisition fee, correct?

Speaker 6 I don't know. Cardone does.
Yeah, he has actually got sued for it before. Cardone did.

Speaker 5 But he got, I mean, he's doing it the right way.

Speaker 6 As long as he discloses it all and talks about it all, as long as his marketing's on point, right? And that types of deal sizes and the way they structure that with the SEC.

Speaker 6 As long as you're following all the rules, we could charge you whatever you want. I actually

Speaker 6 had a deal, another guy that I was in on a deal with. He did another deal where he took a 25% acquisition fee.

Speaker 6 And he didn't tell me about the deal, obviously, because he knew I would not be happy with that because I understand real estate. But if the numbers pencil, you know what I mean?

Speaker 6 Then the investors are happy and they're willing to invest still and take whatever you want if it, if it, if it pencils.

Speaker 5 So how do you guys structure your, when do you go for multifamily commercials?

Speaker 6 Yeah, so I, so I've done, so obviously the 98 unit, we didn't raise any capital because I got 95% of the capital from the seller. But we've done four syndications in total on four multifamily deals.

Speaker 6 And all four of those I've structured identically. Super simple.
What we do is 75, 25%. So we take the 25% equity.
We bring no cash to the table at all. 75% is the cash to the table.

Speaker 6 We do 8% preferred returns paid quarterly.

Speaker 5 And that's all in an entity.

Speaker 5 Basically, you're not going and creating a fund. You're going and creating an entity.
You're getting the operating agreement that shows their ownership in that entity.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I mean, it's similar to a fund. It's a syndication.
And so it's a

Speaker 5 couple of different ways, right? Like you can create a syndication of a property. Like right now, this third one, we're going to syndicate it, but all the investors are going to own the LLC.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 Right. Instead of going.
Same concept. Yeah.
Instead of going and getting the actual fund and spending the $15,000 to $25,000 to go get the,

Speaker 6 you know. Yeah.
I mean, really, it's just a different way to look at how you're expending money on legal. Right.

Speaker 6 If you've got a bunch of partners coming in on a JV, right, a joint venture or operating agreement, you're still going to need an attorney to make sure those stocks are good.

Speaker 6 You're still going to have to answer attorneys on the other side. Right.
So it's just a a different way to fund it and a different way in how you have to report to the SEC, right?

Speaker 6 There's, there's reg A's, there's reg Ds, there's all kinds of different

Speaker 5 ways to do it. And I find at the price point, this is like one, one, right? So at that price point,

Speaker 6 it's not worth all of it. No, correct.
It's not.

Speaker 5 And that's why I said, listen, instead of going through this route where we can get the whole fund and the reg A or whatever, let's just go have you guys be GPs, true ownership, et cetera.

Speaker 6 It depends on a deal size, right? I'm closing next month, less than a month away now, on a 40-unit deal. We're acquiring that for 2.4 million.

Speaker 6 And instead of doing a syndication, instead of raising a bunch of money on that specific deal, I needed $700,000 to come in for our equity on the deal. I gave that to a partner.

Speaker 6 They're bringing all $700,000, just one person for that deal. They're with the deal on part of the LLC.
So the deal that we structured to make it easy, I gave them 50%.

Speaker 6 So we're splitting a deal 50, 50 on equity side, and then their money is actually coming as debt. Yep.
With an 8%,

Speaker 6 8%, it's not really a prep, it's interest, right? Because they're going to be higher up on the balance sheet because they're debt. So their 700 is just going to be debt at 8% interest for five years.

Speaker 5 So that's the same thing. I just have four players, you have one player.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 And that's it. I mean, it makes it a lot easier.

Speaker 5 As debt at 10%, I want to get your 8% guy, but they're coming in at 10%.

Speaker 5 Part of it is I just overperform, right?

Speaker 6 Well, 10% is tough, but in this market, it must be a really undervalued deal because you're probably going to add

Speaker 6 value.

Speaker 6 Because 10% right now on a stabilized asset is really tough to pay off.

Speaker 5 We're buying it at 300 grand, putting 750 into it.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 5 So we're basically buying a shell. Yeah.
So we're basically buying.

Speaker 5 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 And so, which for someone who has some limited apartment, I like it. Meaning, I have a blank canvas.
I don't have to go get tenants out. I don't have to wait.

Speaker 6 Do you have up the top of your head? I bet you don't know this answer, but this is me right into the numbers. The 750, how much equity value is I can add to the property?

Speaker 5 About a million.

Speaker 6 About a million. So you're going to put $750 in and create 1.75 in value value to the property.
So you can afford 10%. Now, make sure you can pay it out.

Speaker 6 So you're either going to have to defer the payments or raise enough cash that the cash itself can pay back during the renovation period. I'm sure it's going to be a good thing.

Speaker 6 Well, it's all back-ended, right?

Speaker 5 So they get their money when the money comes back out from the refi. So because we'll be into this call every one, it'll have some sort of valuation of...

Speaker 5 I mean, who knows, but we're guessing somewhere between 1.6 to 1.8,

Speaker 5 all of the money is going to be coming out of the thing. Yeah.

Speaker 6 Right. So that's

Speaker 6 the patient. Yeah.
10% is nice, really good, actually.

Speaker 6 Because the numbers work, right?

Speaker 5 They're not having to deal with them.

Speaker 6 So their IRR, like they're counting on timing for you to perform, right? Maybe it's a year or two years, but if you push that thing, right, and you're going to do it all right away, I'd imagine.

Speaker 6 IRR comes down because they're not seeing cash on a monthly basis, on a quarterly basis. My deal is 40 units.
It's fully occupied. We're going to turn them all.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 But it's already cash flowing, right? So the 8%, we can afford to pay that out, but we can't afford to pay much more, right?

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Speaker 5 This part really excites me. So you and I would be able to geek out about like, this is the space I want to just keep pushing into.
Heck yeah. I like the blank canvas.
I know they're just hard.

Speaker 5 Like we've just lucked out to be able to find three apartments that we've been able to have the opportunity to build out, but they're in those type type of neighborhoods also.

Speaker 5 I'm not buying necessarily in BA neighborhoods, and it's because the numbers make so much more sense. So, I'm also going to do something I've never done before and go Section 8.

Speaker 5 I'm going to Section 8 all three separate apartments.

Speaker 6 I love that, man. We'll have to talk offline.

Speaker 5 I can give you a lot of

Speaker 6 point. Yeah, I got a lot of Section 8.

Speaker 5 It doesn't have to be offline.

Speaker 6 Let's teach the people. Yeah, I've got a lot of Section 8 in my portfolio.
The crazy thing right now in my town,

Speaker 6 if you put $10,000 into a renovation project at a home, Section 8 gives you another $1,000 a month for the full first year that you put a Section 8 tenant in there.

Speaker 6 And right now, Section 8 is paying above-market rent. So we might, we got a, we got a unit, for instance, that might rent for $10.99, right? Fully renovated unit that we add over $10,000 into it.

Speaker 6 Well, Section 8 right now might be paying $14.99, but if you put $10,000 into it, they'll actually pay $24.99 a month for a full year.

Speaker 6 So you're getting $12K back on a $10,000 renovation back in the rent year. So it's free renovation, plus you're getting above-market rents from Section 8.

Speaker 5 Real this man right now. Casey, Ryan Quinn on Instagram.

Speaker 6 The reason is just because, you know, affordable housing is at such a premium, it gets really hard to find right now.

Speaker 6 And so the government has to do something so that they don't have people living all over town, right? Especially depending on where you're at. This is in Pittsburgh.
Right.

Speaker 6 So I can only imagine the bigger cities, if you get to a bigger city, it's even better.

Speaker 5 So I'm buying in Birmingham for what I think most people are going to see here in the next four years.

Speaker 5 People can't afford to live outside of areas that aren't priced the way Birmingham is priced.

Speaker 6 So

Speaker 6 this is exactly why we bought, I mean, I'm from Pittsburgh, so, but kind of got lucky. I always want, I massively believe investing in your hometown.
I get it when you live in Miami, you can't.

Speaker 5 Not as

Speaker 6 it's a lot more difficult, but it makes it way easier for us. But we also knew coming into this thing,

Speaker 6 Pittsburgh was the cheapest market in the country from a cost of living perspective. So we knew we could only go up compared to the rest of the world, right? The rest of the country.

Speaker 6 So So we've got lucky from that standpoint too. Just this last year, we were actually the highest, the fastest growing home prices in the country, right? It was all over Redwood and everything else.

Speaker 6 Pittsburgh. Yeah.
Pittsburgh. 22% year over year, I believe it was.
Now, we're not taking massive advantage of that.

Speaker 5 That's insane.

Speaker 6 When we get to a point where we're ready to recap all of our recapped properties.

Speaker 5 But it's the long game. I mean, I think that's the other thing.
I think you and I also realize I'm not doing this to go essentially get rich now.

Speaker 5 Yes, I make a lot of money and whatever, but it's more about the long game when you can go back in five years and say, hey, this thing's now worth 2.8, not 1.7.

Speaker 6 Right. You know, it's, it's incredible, right? And, you know, I know we want to get into a little bit of talking numbers here later on the podcast, but

Speaker 6 the really cool thing is if you could figure out how to live your life and do things where you make money outside of the actual investment in real estate, so instead of flipping it, right?

Speaker 6 If you can have a coaching program or you could do something where you're making enough money that your lifestyle is okay and you can keep more of the real estate.

Speaker 6 I mean, and it's a numbers game, right?

Speaker 6 And really understanding how to look at a balance sheet and how to understand the wealth that you're creating and how easy it is to borrow, right, and to build your wealth by looking at the numbers.

Speaker 6 Because the reality is, let me just want to run through an example right now about a single family home and why I preach keep it. So, I'll give you an example, right? And I'll keep the numbers simple.

Speaker 6 Let's say we buy a home for $150,000 and we're planning to flip it. And so we're going to add $100,000 to it.
So we have a $250,000. We're all in for $250,000, and we can sell it for $400,000.
Okay.

Speaker 6 Right. So it's a really nice profit on that.
We can sell it for $400,000. Okay.

Speaker 6 Right. But let's just say, right, we're going to sell at $400,000.
We're going to pay selling costs. In Pittsburgh, it's 5% transfer taxes.
So we're going to pay 2.5% of that.

Speaker 6 And then we got realtor fees, unless we're our own realtor, which I would love for all realtors. And we obviously, I own a brokerage as well.

Speaker 6 But let's just say you don't, right? And you're going to pay 5% or 6%. So let's just say 5.

Speaker 6 You pay half of that, right?

Speaker 6 I'm I'm sorry, no, you don't. You pay all of it.
So you paid a full 5% realtor fee. So you're at 7.5%

Speaker 6 of your 400 grand that you owe out, plus other closing costs. Plus, most of the times when you sell a home, right, you're selling to a first-time home buyer on a flip.
Well, guess what?

Speaker 6 They're going to come in and beat you down through inspection because it's not going to be perfect. Let's be real here.
They're going to nickel and dime. They want a perfect home.

Speaker 6 So something's wrong with the basement, whatever, called 2%.

Speaker 6 So you're looking at roughly 10%

Speaker 6 that you're going to pay. So 400 grand, less 40 grand, you're actually going to net like 360.

Speaker 6 Okay. Not only that, when you flip a home compared to when you keep a home for rent, there's certain things when you renovate the home that you don't have to do, right?

Speaker 6 Because you're not selling to an end-user homeowner, you're just renting it. Like finished basements, right?

Speaker 6 Or

Speaker 6 like there's certain things in the home. It depends on your market for us.
In Pittsburgh, we have a lot of wet basements, right? They're unfinishable. So you'll have to go in and you have to.

Speaker 6 That way you all make it clean.

Speaker 5 It's a good term when something's unfinished, it's wet or

Speaker 6 damp that's wet. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's literally wet in our town where it's damp, it's moist. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But that plays a tool, right?

Speaker 6 So a lot of times you'll have to paint over the walls, right?

Speaker 6 Different things. And so for us, it's like 20 grand usually that we have to put in an additional capital every time we flip.
Because when COVID took off, we flipped probably 30 homes. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 Right. We were flipping a lot because it was like, oh my God, we can take advantage and make it ridiculous.
Sure.

Speaker 6 We needed, we were making good money on the flip because they were paying way above above appraisal value

Speaker 6 and justifying that. So we have to do that.
So call it another 20 grand. So you're at 10%.
So 400,000, less 10% is 40 grand plus another 20 grand is 60 grand.

Speaker 6 So you're really only going to net probably, right, 340. Yep.

Speaker 6 If you go refinance that home because you can get money from a bank and you can get an 80% loan to value on the home and rent it, you're going to get 320 grand.

Speaker 6 So the difference is only 20 grand, right?

Speaker 6 But But you have a cash-flowing asset and building wealth, and you have all of that net equity wealth sitting on your balance sheet on your personal financial statement, so you can go borrow more.

Speaker 6 You're worth more money.

Speaker 5 You're rich. You call it bankability, right?

Speaker 6 Bankability, right? And I don't even know if you're going to. You can do that on repeats,

Speaker 6 right? The bank's giving you more money, and all you really had to do is give up 20 grand on that specific.

Speaker 5 But this is why it's really important for someone to have income that they don't have to rely on. Like the sole fix and flipper, a lot of times that's hard, right? This is your only income.

Speaker 5 So you want that extra 20 grand because the next flip might take, you know, let me take it one step further for everybody listening.

Speaker 6 We didn't talk taxes. True.
So you could sell it and you could net 340, 340 of 250 into it. You make 90 grand.
You refinance it, you get 320,

Speaker 6 right? 80%.

Speaker 6 The difference is 70 grand that you get. So you could pay taxes on 90 grand

Speaker 6 or you can get 70 grand taxes. That's free.
True. Which one do you want? Right.
Right. Do the math.

Speaker 5 Now, are you seeing those numbers in today's financial economy? It's definitely harder.

Speaker 6 It's definitely harder for us.

Speaker 6 Like that exact example, you know, where we would have, where when the market was taking off, we were netting a good 30, 40 grand per refi tax-free, and we were able to scale the business.

Speaker 6 Right now, our goal is to break even on all of our births. So our goal was to essentially get into it and get out of it with no money.
A dead zeal breaker even.

Speaker 6 Now, we have some wins, we have some losses, but we do it at scale. I mentioned at the beginning, we buy property every three days now.

Speaker 5 Well, that's the key is so I'm on that kind of buying trend is every two to five homes a week, just some weeks are higher and lower. But at scale, these numbers work.

Speaker 5 A lot of the people aren't at my level, your level, right? So we also have to understand to get there, you can have some wins and losses. And at scale, the wins outrun the losses, right? Yes.

Speaker 5 But losses to you is like you have to leave 10 grand in the deal. That's a loss.

Speaker 6 That's a loss. It's not really a loss.
It's not really a loss.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 6 Right. I always talk talk about that to a lot of people of, you know, because we evaluate that as a company.
We have 50 employees and we always talk about a loss.

Speaker 6 The reality is it's not really a loss. Think about any home anybody's ever bought.
You have to put money into their home. Right.
When I bought my home that I live in currently, right, I put 20% down.

Speaker 6 That's how much money I put into the house. Now we're saying 10K we have to leave in.
That's it per deal. That's a loss.

Speaker 5 Well, it'd be a loss.

Speaker 5 Net revenue a month on a single family?

Speaker 6 Our goal is always 200 to 250 net cash flow per month per problem.

Speaker 5 What happens at the refinance stage? This just happened to us, that's what I'm going to ask.

Speaker 5 It goes to 76 bucks a month net, but you could go make 40 grand on a flip.

Speaker 6 It's a tough call. I'd evaluate what you need.
I would still say keep it if you can, particularly in any market that you're ever in because, look, appreciation is real.

Speaker 6 And so if you can afford to keep it, $76 a month in cash flow and that net wealth of which you can continue to borrow on as you grow because banks like you more, you're more bankable with the right-back office in place, of course, because you have to be able to track and show that well.

Speaker 6 Yeah, we have a lot of deals that don't pencil at $250 a month. The reality is they don't.
I really don't even count on the cash flow. Right.
Like we look at that all as bonus, right?

Speaker 6 Because we have a management company that we're paying

Speaker 6 and we want to continue to scale that business independently and separate.

Speaker 6 And so we're adding a bunch of value in other places for us that we're okay if we lower that cash flow for sure on those deals.

Speaker 6 So, we definitely have lately, we always try to maximize cash out, right?

Speaker 6 So, if it's a question is, hey, you can cash out and get an extra 10 grand today to get to break even, but your property's not going to cash flow, I'll still take that all day because we're scaling and growing.

Speaker 5 So, again, at scale, that makes sense, but for the person that has one, two, three, four, five rentals, what happens in that maintenance tenant tears the thing up, maintenance breaks a window, and you're essentially net even.

Speaker 5 Yeah. At scale, you can afford to take that L, but for the the person who owns, this is why, like, I have a hard time advising people to go buy a rental or two.

Speaker 5 Like, learn what we know about raising capital. Learn what we know about syndicating and all the different ways of syndicating because you don't need your own money.

Speaker 5 And you can actually go buy a rental a month. A rental every two months is better than.

Speaker 6 Justin, even that, I still believe, even if you have to put two, three grand into it every year, you're still getting all the net equity. You're still getting the appreciation on the property.

Speaker 6 Most likely in most cities across the country, you still appreciate it.

Speaker 5 What's the point? Right. That's my well, yeah.
So I guess where I'm going is you got to be able to go, I'm going to go buy, like, I want people to go buy one a quarter.

Speaker 6 I love that. Right.

Speaker 5 Because even if you're a W-2 employee, again, there's ways to raise money. We're going to go start traveling the world and speaking together about how you raise money, how I raise money.

Speaker 6 There's ways to raise money that even if you have a W-2, you're a licensed accountant, even if you're stuck being a true accountant, still the big four, you don't have to use your own money and you can go buy these things things without having any of your own capital i say though partner with somebody totally right if you have a couple bucks because you have a really good job partner with someone make sure you're getting once one one a quarter yeah right or if you don't and you have the time find someone that has a really good job that they're willing to partner with you because 50

Speaker 6 of four single-family homes a year is still great wealth particularly in our market where we know realist inflation's real it's always going to be real totally it's still a great retirement well we just talked about it you're doing it on one of your apartments right 700 grand is coming in.

Speaker 5 You're doing a partnership agreement. I'm doing it on one of my apartments.
I'm basically syndicating the ownership group, right? So it's going to be an ownership group.

Speaker 5 I say that because it's relatable in terms of like ownership groups by football teams, baseball teams, ownership groups, right? Yeah. Percentage of ownership.
People can do that, right?

Speaker 5 If you're listening or watching this, you could call, go hit up Casey, go hit up me. I mean, there's opportunities out there that like we're always looking for something bigger.

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Speaker 6 I mean, we've talked about this before, but I've never used a single dollar of my own money to build a $100 million portfolio.

Speaker 6 And reality is we have five or six deals total that we don't have 100% equity. We have over 300 single-family homes that my partner and I own 100% of all of the equity in all of those deals, right?

Speaker 6 By using other people's money.

Speaker 6 The reason is, is we have a really clean, good back office that we can show exactly what other folks are getting into, how we manage the capital, how the investment's doing, how the deal's going to do.

Speaker 6 Even those deals that we talked about that might be short-term losers, if you will, we had to leave a couple bucks in there. No problem, right? We have borrowed debt on the back end that sits there.

Speaker 6 Guess what? It gets paid off, right? And we're not maybe not cash flowing as well from the deal because we have to pay off that second position debt.

Speaker 6 But no problem. We still own the equity in the property.
And last I checked, it's going up. Rents are going up.

Speaker 6 Single-family homes are really cool because it's not just based on rent because you could always sell it to a homeowner. That's right.
Right.

Speaker 6 On the multifamily five plus, you're always generally going to be selling that to an investor. And so it's much more based on what's renting going to do.
That's how the value of the property goes up.

Speaker 6 More based on cap rates, which I don't think we want to get a ton into that. But that's ultimately based on what's your market doing, what's the market saying, what are interest rates?

Speaker 6 What is rent?

Speaker 5 People who don't continue to do both are short-sighted. And the reason why I say that, people get so drawn into Grant and his whole apartment apartment thing.

Speaker 6 I love it. It's not wrong.

Speaker 5 It's right, but it's an and, not an or. You're echoing it.
I'm going to say it in a different way.

Speaker 5 A single-family home, you could do a seller-finance deal where you now no longer need to be the landlord and you can sell it for a premium, get your cash flow each and every month, which elongates a payoff.

Speaker 5 So your tax situation is even better. And then there's a lot of times where

Speaker 5 those buyers default and you get to go do that again and again. You're likely really going to only focus on single family homes in that.

Speaker 5 Same way you can flip it, but you have multiple exits with a single family home. To your point, really everything's based around rents, cap rate, et cetera.

Speaker 5 You're really looking for an investor, right? So you don't quite have as much wiggle room as you necessarily would single family. I think it's an and.

Speaker 5 I'm going to continue to buying single family homes all day long.

Speaker 6 Justin, I can't tell you how many people have, you know,

Speaker 6 very successful people, especially a lot of people in a multifamily space. have said, why do you still do single family homes, right?

Speaker 6 And this is along the way before, you know, people said, when I first said, I'm going to start going into multifamily too, and we had some track record, we had some experience, and we wanted to start branching into multifamily.

Speaker 6 People would say, well, you've got to stop single-family home. And I always said, I'm going to do both.
Why wouldn't I do both?

Speaker 6 Single-family home is such a, it's much less risky at the end of the day because of your point, there's so many exit strategies, right?

Speaker 6 Because you can like, I always just go back to the most basic exit strategy is you get the tenant out, clean it up, and you can sell it to a homeowner, right?

Speaker 6 Last I checked, everybody needs a place to live.

Speaker 5 I mean, it's only going to get worse and worse and worse because people are having a lot of fun out there and creating a lot of families, right?

Speaker 5 And I don't see the builders, at least in the areas I'm in, there's still no builder activity. The loans are too costly for them.

Speaker 5 Not saying it's not happening at all, but I'm not seeing the bigger builders go out and build at scale like we did previously, right?

Speaker 5 COVID kind of shut it down and they really haven't started since COVID again.

Speaker 5 They may be picking and choosing eight homes here and maybe smaller lots, but they're not going and building at least the areas I'm in.

Speaker 6 Yeah,

Speaker 6 it's a math game, right? Like, so if you just want to talk to data for a second, home building's up 40%.

Speaker 6 The cost to build a new home, the cost to renovate a home, maintenance, it's all up 40 plus percent since COVID. Real estate home values across the country are up 22%.

Speaker 6 So if you think about it, right, it's going to cost me 40% and I'm only going to get a 22% increase. I'm down 18%.
That's right. At scale, numbers don't do math.
Like, they don't add up. 18%,

Speaker 6 you're bankrupt right at the end of the day and so they can't to your exact point and so um that's ultimately what happened now there's a lot of stuff coming on market right now in the big cities because they were already being built yeah and so it was that there was there's more coming on which is like places like florida down here you know rent rent growth is actually negative because of how much supply has come online recently and so the the reality is though it's a cycle because guess what now nobody's coming to florida right nobody wants to invest in florida i was on a call with a bunch of big investors and pretty much it's a big red exo in Florida.

Speaker 6 Do not touch Florida right now for those reasons. Well, guess what? Now all of a sudden we're going to eventually get back into the demand cycle.
That's right. It's going to come.
So,

Speaker 6 you know, for me, it's location-based, of course. And that's why the other thing I always say is know your market.
Know the market you're in. Know where you're at.
Know what you're investing in.

Speaker 6 For us, it's really easy. I'm in Pittsburgh.
I live there. I know the market really well.

Speaker 5 And you know that. And I go the other route, right? I'm on the other side of that coin where I say you don't necessarily necessarily need to live in the market you're investing in.
No.

Speaker 5 And if you, the reason why I make that argument, I'm sure you can at least agree with this point. None of the big money, the funds live in the markets.
Like they do this all virtually.

Speaker 5 They have a great back end. They have a great team.
Yes, they have all the money to go afford all that. But if they can do it, so can the little guys.
So can we, right?

Speaker 5 So I can go buy in Birmingham, Alabama, Pensacola, Florida, Charlotte, North Carolina, Oklahoma City, all the places I'm buying in. I've never even been to the state of Oklahoma.

Speaker 5 I've never been to the state of Alabama. and I have more real estate in those two states than anywhere else in the country.
And I'm never amazing in the state.

Speaker 6 That's amazing.

Speaker 6 But you should be proud of yourself for that because

Speaker 6 even me was very, I'm going to count an extremely conservative, but I do take risks. Like, that scares me.
So that's amazing that you do that for sure.

Speaker 5 It's a risk tolerance, but it also is based around growth, right? I know where people are going to ultimately end up growing and living. And I bank on big colleges, big sports teams.

Speaker 5 I mean, that's really the two things I really look at and say, okay, do we have a big college?

Speaker 5 So there's always going to be some level of economy because when was the last time a, you know, okay, you know, Oklahoma University, when was a big college like that ever go out of business?

Speaker 6 Never. They don't.
Right.

Speaker 5 So, so, but I wanted to highlight something because I want to transition this into your back end and dialing in the numbers and understanding what it takes to build a hundred million dollar portfolio.

Speaker 5 You rely more on your back end. You have a company called Accruity.
Yep. They do my books because of the importance of this, right?

Speaker 5 So the closer we've got, I understood your model and I said, okay, well, if you have a team that actually can do the same thing for me that they're doing for you, I'm in.

Speaker 5 So if people need bookkeeping and accounting services for real estate specifically,

Speaker 5 where can we have them go?

Speaker 6 Yeah. So, you know, maybe I'll just give a two-second back story on it all, right? The way that we built our portfolio was accounting.
I'm not a real estate guy.

Speaker 6 You know, I am now and I know deal making extremely well. But when I started five years ago, I had no real estate experience, right?

Speaker 6 And so we were able to build build a business using purely numbers. Like that's what I'd look at.
Is this a good deal or not? Then how do we scale it using numbers? And so about two years ago,

Speaker 6 when we were probably 60, 70 million, something like that, we said, hey, look, we realize, especially, you know, getting into masterminds and meeting a lot of incredibly talented salesmen, entrepreneurs, people doing flips, making millions of dollars a year, that we could really help them because we realized that, you know, I'm speaking to a lot of you out there where your back office is probably a mess.

Speaker 6 If you're answering the question, how do you manage your business? Well, how much money is in the bank account? Like, that's a problem.

Speaker 6 And one day there's going to be no money in that bank account, right? And so,

Speaker 6 you know, we realized two years ago, we can really help a lot of people scale their business, scale and keep more real estate to get bankable, to be able to go to banks and get more money from them to scale, right?

Speaker 6 A lot of good friends and because, you know, a lot of people in the industry that I've been meeting, like, they're good people. I want to help them.
So that's when we spun out Accruity.

Speaker 6 Accruity is the name of our accounting business. And we only focus on real estate, real estate investors,

Speaker 6 any vertical in the real estate space, right? So if you're a flipper, a wholesaler, you have a brokerage, you have a team, anybody in that space that doesn't have a good back office, right?

Speaker 6 To me, fundamentally, bookkeeping is core to everything that you do. You have to be able to make sure every transactions that's happening is being accounted for the right way.

Speaker 6 Going all the way back to high school, bro,

Speaker 6 I got kicked out of art class, freshman year, go figure, not very art. I don't even write anymore because it's so bad.

Speaker 6 And I got put it stuck in accounting.

Speaker 6 And my teacher, my sophomore year in accounting class in high school said, accounting is a language of business. And it's always resonated for me because it is.

Speaker 6 Everything that happens in business, guess what? It equates back to money, which is a transaction, right? A transaction occurs. We exchange something.

Speaker 6 And it always has to equal on every side. Well, that's bookkeeping.

Speaker 6 And if you don't understand where every dollar is going, where all of your money is being spent and what it's returning for you, right? Because why do we spend money? For one reason, to get a return.

Speaker 6 In two ways, certainly. One is time.
What do we want to do with our time, though? Go make more money. Or two is to get a return on that money, right? Whether we're putting money into a home, right?

Speaker 6 Marketing, people, anything that we're spending money, it's to get something back.

Speaker 6 And so if you're not understanding what it is that you're getting back and when,

Speaker 6 then you're fighting a a losing battle. You're not really speaking the language of business, which is when am I going to get my money back or my time back to go create more money, right?

Speaker 6 So we created that company literally just for that.

Speaker 6 So we could really help folks like you who are really good at selling, really good at business, really good at all those things that don't have the time, capacity, desire to make sure all of that back office is fundamentally perfect.

Speaker 6 Instead, we'll do all of that work for you, get it nice and cleaned up, get it perfect, and then we'll meet with you once a month if you want it. Some people don't even want it.

Speaker 6 They just want to know it's safe. Yeah.
Right.

Speaker 6 And we'll have a conversation around what that looks like for you and how you can go make more money using that.

Speaker 6 So Accruity is the name of it. Again, we only focus on real estate verticals, if you will.
And our goal is really to help people keep more real estate.

Speaker 6 And ultimately, the more real estate you keep, we haven't even got into this, the less taxes you have to pay, particularly when you're making money.

Speaker 6 as a real estate agent, investor, whatever you're doing in the space. And so that's ultimately what we're after to really help as many people as we can.

Speaker 5 So go, if they want to go talk to your team, go to accruity.com.

Speaker 6 What do you're doing? Yeah, our website's accruity.com. We're in the middle of revamping it right now.
We're not the best at marketing, but

Speaker 6 over the last two years, we've been really focused on helping people. Now we're like, okay, hey, we've really mastered the product itself.

Speaker 6 We've really built the right team, the foundation, the processes. And so, hey, we can go help a lot more.
So now we're revamping the website, accruity.com.

Speaker 6 Obviously, they can reach out to you, bro, right? Like, obviously,

Speaker 5 on the application, I'm assuming there's some sort of application they fill or something.

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah. Connect with us.

Speaker 6 Shoot me a message on Instagram, Casey Ryan Quinn, Facebook. However, you want to get a hold of me, right? We're happy to have a conversation.
Essentially, we call them exploratory calls.

Speaker 6 You know, everything's sort of specific to you at the end of the day, your business. Everybody has different things going on.

Speaker 6 You know, the reality is a lot of people that are doing business already sort of have something in place, whether it's an old bookkeeper, probably a lot of times they have a CPA that doesn't know how to do their books, right?

Speaker 6 And they're all frustrated with their existing CPA.

Speaker 6 Whenever you get a hold of me, right, obviously, you know, make sure you let me know that Justin sent you through his following, through his podcast or whatever. And,

Speaker 6 you know, I'll personally jump on exploratory call with you. I like to take a lot of those calls early on to make sure we're a good fit early on.

Speaker 6 Not everybody's a good fit for us.

Speaker 6 Well, there's a lot of people out here like pad split world, right?

Speaker 5 So like if you're doing any pad splits, fix and flips, buy and hold long-term, short-term, mid-term, like this is so, so important for you guys to understand the power of understanding your numbers, your P ⁇ Ls.

Speaker 5 Are you actually making any money? To your point, right? Whether it's you're getting some tax write-offs because you're buying some commercial assets,

Speaker 5 whether you're barely breaking even, but it's okay because you have, you know, 50% equity. There's a lot of these things that you need to understand how to run the actual business side of it.

Speaker 5 Don't just go buy a rental to buy a rental because you read Rich Dad, Poor Dad. So you're like, oh, I got to go buy an asset because that can quickly turn into a liability

Speaker 5 if you don't know how to run an actual business, which even one rental is like a little mini business, right? And you got to know how to run it. So accruity.com, let them know you heard

Speaker 5 him on the podcast.

Speaker 5 Let's not end here, though.

Speaker 6 Let's talk a little bit about

Speaker 5 the ability to scale and understanding your numbers on acquisition cost. This is kind of where I was going a little bit with like, there's so many ways.

Speaker 5 If you know your numbers, you can pay yourself on the front end. You can pay yourself in the middle, you can pay yourself on the back, right?

Speaker 6 Yep.

Speaker 5 But this is understanding, you know, how much does it cost you to go acquire that property? What's involved in the cost? Let's dive a little bit more into that.

Speaker 6 Yeah, for sure. To your point, I'll touch that first.
You can pay yourself a bunch of ways. We do, right? We have an acquisitions company.
Every deal that we buy, we make $10,000 on it.

Speaker 6 Our acquisition company does. So this year, we'll buy 120 homes that we add to our portfolio, 10 a month.
That's $1.2 million in revenue from an acquisitions company, right?

Speaker 6 The reason we need to do that and the reason we charge 10K is because we know exactly what it is that we're spending every single month to find the deals, right?

Speaker 6 Because listen, I'm not help finding deals. I'm here hanging with you.
I'm running a business. I'm running the accounting business.
I'm running our business. We got a thousand units.
We have

Speaker 6 $4 million a year property management company. $13 million a year construction.
Like I don't have time, right?

Speaker 6 So we need to be in the numbers, understanding exactly what it is that it's costing us every single month to go acquire this real estate. And the really key metric here is we might spend it today.

Speaker 6 So we are, you know, we're doing probably, and you probably can, you're probably much better at talking through this than me on our lead generation. Yeah.
Right. We were had like seven at one point.

Speaker 6 We're really all the way down back down to two. We crushed mailers a ton.
And we're doing our own branded PPC where it's our brand on there, right?

Speaker 6 To continue to build that in our market because we're only in Pittsburgh. Those are our only two right now.
And I think we're spending roughly 25 to 30 grand a month on that.

Speaker 6 But every dollar that goes out the door, we need to know when it's coming home.

Speaker 6 And so for us, the 10,000 per deal, and we're running through our KPI metrics to know exactly what it's costing us on a per deal basis for that $30,000, right?

Speaker 6 Now we're dialing back, we're dialing up. Hey, we're moving more to mailers.
We're moving more to PPC, depending on how they're ultimately performing on when the money's coming home, right?

Speaker 6 What is our real customer acquisition cost for us? It's different if you're running, depending on your business, right? If you're in a coaching business, it's how many students did I get, right?

Speaker 6 Or whatever that is, it really depends on your business. But for us, it's homes.
So what is it costing us to acquire a home? And we need to make sure the money's coming back.

Speaker 6 And the way that we run that math is obviously pay ourselves a 10 grand. The 10 grand is based on historical averages of what it really is going to cost us.

Speaker 5 If you're buying 10 a month, you're spending 30, you're making 120.

Speaker 6 Right. Yep.
Exactly. So it's a nice little ROI.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 And those numbers have to work on the back end.

Speaker 6 Well,

Speaker 6 And then the other piece is you need to understand what your overhead costs are. Totally.
And that doesn't need to evaluate in, right? We have people that do all of that work for us.

Speaker 6 Now we've been able to scale our company that it's not us doing it anymore.

Speaker 5 The other component of that is if you're going to pay yourself on the front end, you need to make sure that there's still a back end profitability, right?

Speaker 5 And this is why I say there's times, not even paying myself on the front end,

Speaker 5 but there's times where just because the interest rate becomes so low, I'd rather just go take the quick cash and turn it.

Speaker 5 But the reason why I say that is because I'm in the volume game for the rest of my life. Like I don't ever see myself leaving real estate, right?

Speaker 5 So this isn't a quick turn and burn two or three years. So I don't mind taking some chips off the table.

Speaker 5 If something turns into like $78 a month net to me, but I can go make 40, I'll take my 40 because I'm not going to stop buying next year or the year after.

Speaker 5 I can continue to accumulate and double and triple down when the interest rates are a little bit better.

Speaker 5 It doesn't mean it's still not a good time, but that's why I'm willing to do that is because after all the costs come out, after the $10,000 to yourself and all these other things, you need to make sure it's still a profitable scenario.

Speaker 6 Yeah. And like that example, for sure, if it's that easy, if you will, hey, I can go make $40,000 on a wholesale flip deal, or I'm getting $78 a month on that back end.

Speaker 6 The really cool thing, by the way, is you know those numbers now. Yeah.

Speaker 6 Like you've learned that, hey, if I go buy this, I renovate it, I burr it, I go to a bank afterwards, I get all the way through, it's going to be $78 a month. Yeah.
Right.

Speaker 6 You see all that to know, hey, no, I'll take 40.

Speaker 6 The reality of it is nobody's doing that. That's right.
But they need to be doing that to say, hey, look, maybe that 78 is actually 500 a month, right? Six grand a year.

Speaker 6 And, oh, by the way, I'm buying in a market that's going to appreciate a ton or 40 grand less 10 grand selling costs, right? So it's 30 or 6 grand. Like, what is better then?

Speaker 6 Oh, by the way, if I do that, I'm going to pay taxes on my 40. You know, I'm in a high tax bracket or

Speaker 6 massively evaluating all the way down to the very end of what I would say IRR. I don't do that on every deal, but that's the real way to do it.

Speaker 5 It is, my business model is very similar to yours, I think, in the sense of every property I buy, I do the same thing. I underwrite it the same way.
I'm doing a full remodel on every single property.

Speaker 5 That way, if it works for both, I green light the property no matter what, and then I figure out at the end of the remodel what I want to do.

Speaker 5 The other component, what you're talking about, is paying yourself on the front end. People fix and flip because they think there's a bigger payday.
Sometimes there is, sometimes there's not, right?

Speaker 5 We just did a fix and flip. It took us almost nine months.
We ended up breaking even because the city stopped us. And then we had to fix this thing that was over budget and all these different things.

Speaker 5 And you're like, what if that was the only flip I was relying on for income? That's not very fun, right?

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 if people could understand the numbers that you're talking about, they could wholesale a flip to themselves.

Speaker 5 Run a model like myself where you basically say, I'm either going to flip it instead of making 40, I'm making 30 on the back end because I already paid myself 10, or I'm going to keep it and I still made $10,000 because because the numbers are so good, the equity is so good, I'm willing to take $100 a month.

Speaker 5 They would actually keep more because they're paying themselves handsomely on the front end. This all goes down to negotiating and getting the right deal, right? You can't just arbitrarily do this.

Speaker 5 But people would keep more properties if they understood the model of wholesaling it to yourself, take your acquisition fee, wholesale it to yourself, whatever you want to call it.

Speaker 5 On the front end, they'd keep more properties rather than going for the fix and flips. Yeah.

Speaker 6 And like to get really grim for a second, I'm not expecting everybody to do this, particularly if you're buying one a quarter, which hopefully everybody starts to doing as of today, right?

Speaker 6 But like we have asset managers in place now for our business. We charge 2% to every property that's in our portfolio, 2% asset management fee per month.
Our asset managers are now evaluating, right?

Speaker 6 When we buy a home and we go to renovate it, you said you fully got it, not fully got it, but you fully renovate it, whatever that looks like for you.

Speaker 5 It looks like a flip.

Speaker 6 Yeah. And the valuation is that you need to look at on the back end is what is, how is that reducing my maintenance costs if I decide to keep it? It significantly is.

Speaker 6 And you can start to evaluate over time how much for us, because we have asset managers in place, we actually do the evaluation to say, hey, look, we could fully renovate it for $50,000 or we could put $35,000 into it, save $15,000, knowing that it's going to increase our maintenance costs 3% over the next three years.

Speaker 6 And then we'll add in $8,000 in three years and then refinance it again at that point in time because it doesn't need a new roof yet, right?

Speaker 6 Or, hey, you know, we're not going to go fully renovate this bathroom. We know we could get an extra $80 a month in rent, but it doesn't make sense because it's not going to change the appraisal.

Speaker 6 That's right. So we're not going to get more money out of it.
Let's not spend that $10,000 on the bathroom. Let's add it to our asset management list.
And three years from now, let's do it then.

Speaker 6 When we think the rates will be better, we're going to sell it, right? And so we're doing all kinds of CapEx evaluation too, where we're now, you think about it, right? How many homes we're buying?

Speaker 6 If we do that for 25 homes, that's $150,000 in cash by evaluating that and then just making sure we're putting it in the asset management plan.

Speaker 6 We're okay having a maintenance guy go out once every six months to fix a toilet that we didn't replace because it's, you know, obviously the less you fully renovate, the more maintenance costs you're going to have.

Speaker 6 And so then we put those in buckets. Hey, we're at 11% maintenance.
Our goal is always eight, but we save 15 grand. We're okay paying 11%

Speaker 6 costs. People just went like this.
Yeah. So I get it.

Speaker 5 And I'm actually thinking right now,

Speaker 6 but that's how you scale. That's how you go from zero properties to a thousand units plus a ton of flips along the way in five years.
So that's why they need to evaluate the numbers 100%.

Speaker 5 And I'm telling all of you watching this on YouTube, listening to this on Apple, Instagram, you need accruity for this exact reason.

Speaker 5 If you have a team that can manage to these numbers, that would change whether you put 50 grand in or 35 grand to his point.

Speaker 5 And then you can move a lot faster if you have another 15 grand in your pocket. You can buy probably another rental that year, that quarter, that month, just because you save some money on that.

Speaker 6 I know we're doing a

Speaker 6 raising capital masterclass next few weeks. A few weeks in Seattle, yeah.
A few weeks in Seattle. If anybody's in Seattle, you should come out to that.

Speaker 6 What I would like to do is really run through a powerful example of cost of capital and how important that is to deal making, right?

Speaker 6 I can't tell you how many people I've talked to, students, different things in the past, where they'll wait three weeks

Speaker 6 to say $200 on a window, right? On the renovation or whatever it is, and they're not evaluating the real cost of capital that it's taking them.

Speaker 6 And I don't care if it's their own money, you have to put a premium on, even like, you know, people have a lot of money and say, it's just my own, whatever. That's still real cost of capital.

Speaker 6 Like right now, you could put it in a bank and make 5%.

Speaker 6 So every day that you're not evaluating that, you're losing 5% on that example. For us, I started with no money, bro.

Speaker 6 Like five years ago, we had nothing and nobody would lend to us because I didn't have a balance sheet. So we were paying premiums through the roof, 20%, 23%, 25% certain deals.

Speaker 6 And like, you know, one point in time, I'll never forget the example. I was paying $59

Speaker 6 every day on one deal in my cost of capital. I'm like, so four days, the difference of $200 in a window, I'm out of, I'm out, I lost.
Right. I don't care.

Speaker 6 Spend two extra dollars, get the damn deal done, right? Because I'm paying so much in my cost of capital.

Speaker 6 The example that I'll give around the cost of capital and ultimately on keeping the asset long term over five years, how much wealthier you can ultimately get on both of those, man, it is staggering the difference, right?

Speaker 6 I'm gonna tell you what the difference is. I'm sitting here hanging out with you five years ago.
I couldn't rub a penny and a nickel together for money, right?

Speaker 5 I had a hundred million dollar portfolio.

Speaker 6 Now I have a hundred million dollar portfolio. I'm gonna catch you, dude.
I'm getting it. I want you to.
I want to help you get there. I am helping you.
Let's go there. You are.

Speaker 5 Guys, I appreciate this. If you love this, you should.
Make sure you're following Casey Ryan Quinn, Instagram, Facebook, everywhere else.

Speaker 5 And if you are already active in investing, wholesaling, flipping, or buying rentals, make sure you contact Accruity.com or just hit up KC Ryan Quinn

Speaker 5 because he'll just direct you in the right place. He'll jump on the call with you, all that kind of good stuff.
So I appreciate you being here, bro.

Speaker 6 Appreciate you having me. Keep more real estate or portfolio.
You'll thank yourself later.

Speaker 5 Let's go. That's it.
Another great guest on the next episode.

Speaker 6 Peace.

Speaker 1 JPMorgan Payments helps you drive efficiency efficiency with automated payments and intelligent algorithms across 200 countries and territories. That's automation-driven finance.

Speaker 1 That's JPMorgan Payments.

Speaker 2 JP Morgan Internal Data 2024, Copyright 2025, JPMorgan Chase Company, All Rights Reserve, JPMorgan Chase Bank, and a member, FDIC. Deposits held in non-U.S.
branches are not FDIC insured.

Speaker 2 Non-deposit products are not FDIC insured. This is not a legal commitment for credit or services.
Availability varies. Eligibility determined by JPMorgan Chase.

Speaker 2 Visit jpmorgan.com/slash payments disclosure for details.

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