Jay Shetty on The Toast: Friday, January 27th, 2023

Welcome back to the toast.

I'm so excited for today's guest.

First of all, Jay Shetty is here, which is like such a big deal, biggest podcaster.

Maybe like, you know, you and the toast.

Two of the biggest podcasters ever.

Guru, author, podcaster.

Jay Shetty, thank you so much for being here.

Claudia, I'm so grateful to be with you.

And I'm, I'm really excited because, like I said, my entire team is full of toasters.

We love them.

And so they're such huge fans.

And it's an honor to be with you.

I'm really excited.

I would like to thank all the toasters who made this happen.

Thank you all for your hard work.

Jay, you are like such a big deal.

I don't know if you know.

And honestly, I feel like the magnitude of your work didn't even really hit me until I got to LA and I was just telling my friends and different people.

I'm like, oh, I'm interviewing Jay Shetty.

We've had cool people on the podcast, but like you have a...

profound impact on people.

Like I can't really describe how different people's reaction to you coming on the show was than from anyone we've ever had.

Wow.

I mean, that makes me feel so grateful, honestly.

And I feel humbled by that.

And so thank you, everyone, who's been listening to on purpose and supporting and the the podcast well so i'm curious like i feel like you're always interviewing people and you're now in my hot seat like are you nervous i i enjoy this especially when even the first few moments we spent together because i love learning more about myself yeah and learning more about someone else in this process so i i i wouldn't say i I yeah, I feel nervous.

A little bit.

Yeah, why not?

I mean, my favorite thing on the planet is to talk about myself.

So I love getting interviewed, but I know it's not for everyone, you know?

I feel nervous when I care.

That's what I've realized.

Of course.

I feel nervous when I care.

If I don't care, then I won't feel nervous.

Anything worth caring about is like going to give you like diarrhea.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And yeah.

So I feel like you have this huge podcast.

And I think we have really different audiences.

And for anyone who might not be familiar with your work, your background is so interesting.

You're a former monk.

Yeah.

And I have so many questions about monk life, you know?

Like, did you have a cell phone?

No.

No, right?

Like truly cut off.

Oh, no cell phone.

Yeah.

And I know because I've done a lot of research on you, but can you tell everyone how you got to that place of living in India, being a monk?

Yeah, so just to give context, so I left, it's pretty incredible to think about this.

I left around 10 years ago now.

Oh, wow.

So I left the monastery 10 years ago.

It feels like another lifetime at this point.

But I got there because when I was 18, I was fascinated by learning about people's lives.

I would love to hear from CEOs and celebrities and athletes.

And I'd be going to events.

This is before podcasting.

I'm aging myself.

But you'd have to go to a real life event.

You'd have to get a ticket, you'd sit in the seats, and you'd listen to someone speak.

But the best thing was, which you can't do after a podcast, is you could wait in a line to say hello to the person.

And so I would do that every time, whoever spoke, because I'd love to connect with them one-to-one.

And one of the times I was invited to hear a monk speak.

And in my head, I was thinking, why would I want to hear a monk speak?

I was like, I'm too cool for that.

Like, what am I going to learn from a monk?

So I told my friends, I said, I'd only go if we went to a bar afterwards.

That was literally my request.

And And my friends persuaded me and said, yeah, yeah, sure, sure, sure.

We'll go to a bar afterwards.

So I come to this event.

I'm thinking it's going to be a waste of time.

I'm looking at my watch.

I'm like, come on, let's go to the bar.

And it was amazing because I went there and I found something I wasn't looking for.

I wasn't lost.

I wasn't necessarily searching.

But the monk was talking about how the greatest thing in life was using your skills in the service of others.

And I'd never heard that.

I always heard it was to use your skills to get girls or get money or get famous.

And he was like, no, it's to use your skills to help other people and help other people heal and help other people feel happy.

And I was thinking, as at 18, I'd never heard that before.

And so I said to him, I want to do what you do.

And so for the next few summer and Christmas vacations, I spent them studying in the monastery.

And then when I graduated, I decided to trade my suits and my internships and my corporate career ahead of me to go and live as a monk.

What were you planning on doing before?

I thought I would either be an investment banker or a strategy consultant or something in that world that's what I was training to do I mean I was giving up my passion and desire for art and philosophy which was always my heart but and so you spent three years in India yes and you were fully in it fully in it when I say fully in it I mean I was I mean there's so many pictures of this but like head shaved right wearing robes uh you live out of a gym locker like everything you own fits inside this no material items literally no material items

you have access to like communal uh computers to like email your family and like keep in touch with them.

So, what did your family think of this?

So, my family was kind of being prepared as I was doing these trips, but my extended family was so worried.

They were like, you've been brainwashed.

Right.

They were like, you're never going to get married.

No one's ever going to talk to you again.

I remember my friend, and we were each other's wingman, and he was like, Who's going to be my wingman now?

Like, what's happened to you?

Right.

He was like, Well, now I can't talk to you about girls that I'm dating and this and that.

So, it was like, you know, now it's really interesting because a lot of people are like, well, Jay, it sounds like this story is like something people are really connecting with you but I was like becoming a monk wasn't cool it wasn't interesting it was like the weirdest thing I could have done and it was so far from trendy right when I was doing it and I had to face the reality when I came back because 40 places rejected me before an interview I applied to 40 companies online and I wouldn't even get an interview because surprise surprise You were a monk for three years.

They're like, what are your transferable skills?

Do you put monk on your resume?

It's, oh, yeah, it said monk at the time really oh that's so interesting yeah i feel like you would bring a level of like peace and level-headedness to the corporate environment i think you would actually be good but that's that's that's that's you saying that that makes me feel better but trust me when i was interviewing everyone's like what's your transferable skills sitting silent when we don't need that

what are you gonna bring to this company and so when you decided to leave how does it work when you

you leave it's because like you feel like your time is done or you were over it like is it once a monk always a monk are you still considered a monk no so i'm married now and

monks yeah yeah monks can't be married uh i also have businesses monks don't have businesses and so i'm not not a monk at all anymore and that's why i always say form a monk uh but leaving was really interesting it's self monk training is like self-awareness training in the extreme form because you spend so much time alone and the irony is after spending so much time alone i realized i wasn't a monk i realized that wasn't my path i realized that I had a rebellious streak in me.

I wanted to do things my way.

I'm independent.

I'm strategic.

I wanted to use all of that.

And monk life is sacred.

It's not for that.

So I feel that I took the best learnings and teachings from that time.

And now I still apply them.

I still meditate in the same way as I used to.

I still follow so many of the same habits and practices.

But now, as I wrote my first book, I choose to think like a monk, not live like a monk.

And my goal was, well, how do I take all of that into my mind?

and my presence without having to live that externally.

So you made this decision to like take what you've learned, which most people don't have access to that kind of Zen or that philosophy and help people and pay it forward.

And that's what the podcast does.

And that's, I'm sure you do speaking engagements.

What is the actual journey like from leaving a job or a monk dumb with nothing and then actively starting your own business?

Like literally, like you, did you have any money?

No.

So there is so much in that.

I love that you asked that question.

The transition, I'm fascinated.

That's a great question because everyone always thinks it happened overnight.

And it kind of sounds like that sometimes, but it doesn't.

So I went, I moved back to London.

I moved back into my parents' home because I didn't have any money.

Moved back into the bedroom I grew up in.

I was $25,000 in debt because of my student loan.

And luckily, student loans in the UK are not as bad as in the US.

So it was only 25K comparatively.

That's not terrible for us.

It's not terrible for the US, but it was, it was still pretty bad for me over there.

And the first thing I did was I felt depressed and I felt lost and I felt confused because I thought, wait a minute, I thought I was going to be a monk for for the rest of my life.

I'm not now.

And now all the doubts that my family had started to be true.

So I had uncles and aunts telling my mom and dad, who told you so,

who's going to give him a job now?

Well, who's going to marry him now?

Like, you know, all that kind of stuff started to come back.

And all my friends were now established.

People had been working.

Yeah.

They were buying a car and they were renting the home.

That's tough.

Comparing yourself to like other people's timelines.

Exactly.

And you're coming back to everyone kind of having progressed and you have an in the material sense.

Right.

And it was at that point where I realized something really beautiful that it was at that point I either had to practice what I learned as a monk or trade it.

And I realized that being a monk, I'd learned my skills, I'd learned how to manage stress, I'd learned how to master my mind.

And I was like, this is the time to actually put this all to the test.

So anyway, going to leading to starting something from that, I realized, first of all, I just had to pay bills.

I started dating my wife when I didn't have a job, or my now wife, and I didn't have a job at the time.

And so I would tutor, I would literally tutor students in like economics at university or subjects I was good at just to get paid like 20 pound an hour to get the money to pay for dates with my wife.

Like that's that's that's literally how it works.

I would like save up just to take it to like Pizza Express or somewhere like that, which is a pizza place in England.

Sounds good.

Yeah.

It's it's yeah, it's like a pizza hut kind of vibe.

Yes.

And I would just save up to see whatever I could do.

But what I realized was I had to get a real job.

So I ended up applying to consulting firms again.

Again, I got rejected from 40 companies, finally got a job.

Accenture, right?

Accenture.

And I thought, at least I can pay the bills from here.

That's a good job.

Yeah, it was a decent job.

A friend of mine has worked there.

He's rich.

It wasn't.

So I'll be my starting salary was 31,000 pounds at 26 years old.

Oh,

just to put that in a clear.

Yeah, no, thanks for the question.

I was 26 years old, making 31,000 pounds a year.

Yeah.

And that was my first job.

And I was just happy.

I was just like, yes, at least I can take care of my bills.

Stability.

Stability.

I'm safe.

But what I started to realize, which was really interesting, is Accenture encouraged me to talk about my passions at work and I would talk about meditation and mindfulness.

So I started traveling the whole company teaching meditation and mindfulness.

And I was working with executives and I was working with our directors and I was doing mental health days at work.

And they would trust me to lead these days.

And I was thinking, this is unbelievable.

Like there is so much need for what I studied as a monk.

And two years later was when I decided to quit that job and I said, I'm about to try and see what I can do with this.

I didn't know if it would ever become real.

I thought, you know what?

Even if this just lets me do my hobby on the weekends, it'll be great.

And so in 2016, I launched my first video

on YouTube.

And the reason I did that,

this is a fun story.

I have to tell you this.

So I'd been chasing executives, pitching my idea for the content I wanted to make.

And they were like, Jay, no one wants this kind of mindfulness content.

Then I was applying to companies for like trainee video journalist positions.

And they were like, well, Jay, you don't have any qualification.

You don't have a communications background.

You don't have any media background.

You're not media trained.

So I ended up at an ethnic minority TV training day

run in England.

There were only six brown and black people in this room.

And I went there to see if I even had the skills because I was starting to doubt myself.

And I thought, well, maybe I just, maybe this is not happening in this lifetime.

Yeah.

So I end up at this TV training day.

They do a whole day of training.

And at the end of it, they say to me, Jay, you've got some really strong skills.

And I was like, great, give me a job.

Like, pay me anything.

I'll take it.

And they said, well, there's no jobs in media right now.

And I was like, wait, great.

You told six brown and black people to come here to tell us there's no jobs in media.

Like, that's great.

And they said, well, you should start a YouTube channel.

Right.

And the voice in my head said, that works for Justin Bieber.

Yeah.

Because like, that works for one in a billion people.

Right.

It doesn't work for anyone else.

And I had this really important realization.

There's a beautiful quote by Thomas Edison where he said, When you feel you've exhausted all options, remember this, you haven't.

And that is something that I've used over and over again in my life.

That when I thought I'd run out of alternatives and options, I realized I hadn't.

I hadn't tried everything.

And so even till this day, when I feel I've tried everything, I know I haven't even started.

No, that's a great quote.

Yeah.

Okay.

So you, you launch your career, you're viral.

Years later, you have this podcast and you've really become like a

favorite of people in Hollywood.

And so much in what I read about your book, and which I loved when you were talking about how you're so happy you met your wife when you had nothing because it really helped you focus on you as your biggest value, not your success as your biggest value.

And Hollywood is not the best place for that.

And I'm curious what sort of like monk philosophies or just things you use to keep yourself grounded.

You're very normal.

Honestly, I was I was hella nervous to meet you.

Like you have this kind of larger than life presence online, but you're so normal.

Like I feel very comfortable talking to you.

Thank you.

How do you maintain that in a town like this?

So Claudia, first of all, I'm really happy you read the book.

Like

everything you're saying, saying, I'm like, wow, you like really digested the book.

We love to read here.

I know, it's amazing.

No, no, but I know that, but I really appreciate just, I can tell that you've really digested it too.

It's not just reading.

So that's amazing.

No, a lot of it really resonated with me.

Thank you.

So

how do you do that?

The first thing I have to say is that it's a daily constant practice.

It's not something that you can just say, oh, I already mastered it in my monk life and now I don't need to worry.

It's a daily practice to remain grounded.

My favorite tips for remaining remaining grounded for myself are:

I think it's so important to not forget who you are and where you came from.

My best friends are still my best friends from back in London.

I was just back there and I was just telling you a few seconds ago.

I was back in London for the, for Christmas and New Year's, and I was hanging out with my friends all the time, friends that I've known for like 20 years.

And all they do is rip apart my red carpet looks,

my, my change in hair, like whatever it is.

Like they'll just deep, but it's the best, right?

Because it's like, these are the people I grew up with.

They know me the best.

They care about me.

They love me deeply.

And when you let them lay into you in that British banter way, it keeps a sense of groundedness and reality to where you came from.

So connected to where you came from.

The second thing I'd say is that I think you, you have to really study people's lives.

And I think this is something I've always done.

And as a reader, you do.

And even as an interviewer, you do.

When you study someone's life, you actually get to learn from it rather than get carried away with how you feel in the moment.

So what I mean by that is if you study the arc of any successful person in Hollywood, you'll see a sign of success

Maybe a rebellion.

Right.

Then you'll see depression.

You'll see mental health.

You'll see all of this and you can ignore it and think, oh, that will never happen to me.

Right.

And you think you're the exception.

I would be happy with all that.

I would be happy with all of that.

And I think that that's the mindset that sets us up for failure, where we go, oh, no, no, I'm special.

Yeah.

Like I'm better.

And it's like, well, you're not.

You're human.

All of us are human.

And And so I think when you study someone else's life, you actually develop empathy for them and compassion for yourself.

And you think, wait a minute, let me be aware of the natural pitfalls.

It's kind of like saying if one of your friends has been to a country and they had a rough experience, you got to learn from that experience.

You don't just go, oh, no, that's not going to happen.

I'll be fine.

Yeah, I'll be fine.

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And the third thing I'd say is that, you you know the most important quality that was drilled into us as monks and i think about this as culture like you walk into the offices today there's a beautiful vibrant atmosphere i met you you were super warm and vibrant you gave me a big hug right like we're living a value every day you're i would love to know what your values are what would you say like when you when you greeted me today like what was in your heart and mind because i felt it but i want to hear it in your word you know that's a good question i felt like what i do and our work is very niche you know like if you if you know us, you love us.

And if you've never heard of us, you're like, what is this?

So I had a feeling like maybe, you know, people in your life had told you about the toast, but you weren't entirely familiar.

So I just wanted to be like, we're cool, we're fun, we're normal.

Like, and I also wanted to express gratitude because, like, you being on the show for us is a really big get for us, you know?

So I wanted to be like, I want him to have a good time.

I want him to think I'm cool, funny, nice, smart.

Like, hey, I want him to leave here with the biggest smile on his face.

That was really my intention.

It's working.

It's working.

And so, as a monk, that was humility.

The quality or the thing that we were focused on most was humility.

Like that was seen as the number one gift someone could give you.

And what I found in the most successful, accomplished, or anyone that I've ever met, the quality I find most

admirable and endearing is humility.

And I've found that.

One of the most successful people I know in the world are extremely humble.

I agree.

And so to me,

because from monk life, that was such a priority quality.

It's a quality I'm always trying to aspire for.

I don't think I am humble.

I think I'm always aspiring for it because your ego is always working in there.

Totally.

But I think remaining grounded through my meditation practices, through my life practices, and by the way, being married is a great way to be humbled.

So I was just about to say, like, if you're married,

yeah, exactly.

My wife will roast me all day long.

The team sees it all the time.

And it's the best way to remember who you are and where you're at.

I remember Robert Downey Jr., I saw an interview with him once and he was saying that when he comes home, it's not like his wife and kids are like, oh my God, Simon Man.

He was just like, they're like, can you take the

trash out?

And that's the beauty of living a real life.

And the beauty of family, I think.

For me, one of my core values is family.

And I find like so much of the decisions that I make are influenced by my family and just like what my family would think of me.

Cause I know like I hold their opinions of me in such high regard.

Yes.

Yes, exactly.

So I want to talk about your book.

This is your second book.

Yes.

Your first book was tell me more.

I didn't read your first book.

I'm sorry.

No.

Your first book was much more of like an intro to you and your philosophy.

And then I thought it was really interesting that for your second book, you wanted to write about love.

Yes.

Why?

So my first book's called Think Like a Monk.

It breaks down the practices of meditation, mindfulness, personal habits, habit training, mindset, and it does a bit of a piece of my, my experience.

So that's Think Like a Monk.

I literally just found out this week.

We just...

In the last two years, it's hit two and a half million copies, which I feel

like I feel so.

Do you curse as a monk?

I don't, but you can tell.

I'm not.

You're not offended by it.

all no no no I'm not offended by anyone so many copies yeah it was unbelievable so I feel so grateful and I haven't said that yet on a show so I'm very grateful that I get to share that here it was unbelievable to see the love that that book received especially because and and the reason I'm sharing it is not as like a an ego or a boost thing the reason why I'm sharing it is 14 out of 16 publishers when I was pitching the book told me to change the name They told me no one wants to think like a monk.

They said no one.

I just shared the name.

I loved it.

Yeah, they said no one cares.

And I went with it because it was my truth.

And this is just just a reminder for everyone out there who's being told that your idea is terrible and you should leave it.

Stick to your truth.

Wow.

The reason why I switched to love for this book is because I think I've been fascinated by love my whole life.

I've dated since I was 14.

I've wanted to figure relationships out.

I have failed so many times in love.

And today, when I coach a lot of people, a lot of the things I'm coaching them on is love.

And what I started to notice, Claudia, and I'm sure you feel this with your friends, I had friends who were chasing their passion, but they felt incomplete because of their love life.

Yes.

I had friends who had amazing growth in their business, but when they didn't have their partner in that relationship, or I had friends who were lost and confused, but love in their life was giving them a foundation.

I know it's so true.

And I just felt that love was that area that was ignored in school, ignored in college.

You were expected to know how to love without ever having studied it or learned it.

And I honestly, when I write a book, the question I ask myself is, do I want to get obsessed about this topic for two years right for six hours a day right because that's the amount of time that goes into writing the book so i just spent the last two years obsessed with science on love research on love stories of love

and i just felt that if i didn't write about love i'd be doing the world a disservice because

it's just a unthought about area and you're just expected to know how to be in love so when you were writing it ideally who did you want to pick it up is it for people who have found love because honestly a lot of the book really resonated with me.

And I wasn't sure that it would.

Cause like one, like I have a husband who I love dearly.

Like I, I have found love.

I have real love in my life.

And I was like, well, I don't need the rules of love because I got it.

Bye, suckers.

But I found especially chapter six, so much of it resonated with me.

But who was the ideal reader in your mind?

So the ideal reader, honestly, was.

probably everyone who's listening from the sense of anyone who wants to find it,

keep it or let it go.

And I wrote the book with that in mind because I realized that I couldn't just talk talk about dating without talking about being in a relationship.

That's after.

And I couldn't talk about breakups without talking about being single because it's all interconnected.

And when someone dives into this book, they'll see how it's genuinely a map from preparing for love to perfecting love.

And we go through every phase because this, I see love as like levels.

And it's almost like if you don't learn what you need to learn at level one, you keep getting pushed back there.

And so the book goes through four levels where it teaches you what to think about in each area.

And so whether you're in a relationship, whether you just broke up, whether your friend just had the worst heartbreak, whether you're single and you've been alone for a while, this book has been written with you in mind.

Yeah.

And so for me, the part that I keep mentioning is chapter six is for, so I'm married.

I've been with my husband for 10 years and our love language is bickering.

We argue, we argue like any couple, but most of the time, like our fights are

nonsense.

Like we're just bickering for the sake of talking.

That's just how we communicate.

And I never was like ashamed of it.

And I was never, I just, I honestly thought it was funny.

Um, until, you know, our podcast started blowing up.

And he would podcast with me sometimes.

And so much of the feedback was like, oh my God, Navy, so much.

Like, and it would make me like really insecure in my relationship when forever I've been so secure in my marriage.

I'm not secure in a lot of things, but like I'm really secure in my marriage.

And reading, and I'm going to read a quote if that's okay with you.

Please.

Conflict has a bad reputation.

It makes us look bad to ourselves and to other people.

We want to think that we can be the couple who understands each other deeply and never fights.

We're special.

We're different.

But no matter how, how compatible a couple is, to live in conflict-free bliss isn't love.

It's avoidance.

Every couple fights or should.

And I kind of tell you how like this chip on my shoulder just like kind of like, oh, because I've always felt that way, but I think a lot of people.

You're right, especially in the age of social media, this perception you want to put forward is like, we're perfect.

Oh my God, we love each other.

We never fight.

Like we're literally made for each other.

And that's just not real.

And so I appreciated the amount of realist, like your book was very realistic and very applicable in that sense.

But I do think there are cases where like you actually are fighting with your partner for like too much.

And how do you decipher when you think or advice you would give to someone who's thinking like, I feel like this isn't normal?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And I think there's,

you know, just like you and your husband, my wife and I was telling you, we banter a lot.

Right.

So when people are around us and they'll see us take.

real shots at each other or digs at each other, they'll be like, are you guys okay?

Like have you got relationship issues?

And I'll be like, no, that's our way of showing love.

Like, banter is our love like that.

It's also cultural.

You're British.

I'm Jewish.

It's very rooted in our culture.

Exactly.

And like, the more I can lay into you, the more in love we are.

Like, it's a very weird, right?

It's a very weird concept, but that's how me and my wife function.

And my wife wins every time, by the way.

She's really good at bantering.

I believe it.

But the point I'm trying to put forward in the book is, yes, there is a toxic kind of fighting, which is abusive emotionally,

financially.

Like any type of abuse or toxicity is not what I'm saying is the right type of fighting or arguing.

But what I'm saying is that two humans coming together will naturally have disagreements, disappointments, discussions and debates.

And when we want to avoid those, and like you said, if we live in the world of, oh, you know, and we all have a friend who says to us, oh, we never argue, everything's all peaceful.

And I wonder.

What are you struggling to say?

What are you uncomfortable raising?

And actually, if you want to live with someone for a long time, you got to get really comfortable with uncomfortable conversations.

My wife and I have been together for 10 years.

We still have uncomfortable conversations today.

So what I wanted to do in this chapter, and if I'm jumping ahead, you can slow me down.

What I really wanted to do was help people understand how they fight.

And what I realized is that just as we have love languages, we have fight languages or fight styles.

So imagine you're a wrestler and I'm MMA.

If I don't know you're a wrestler and you don't know I'm MMA, when we fight, fight, it's just going to be the most awkward, uncomfortable.

And it's not a fair fight.

And it's not a fair fight.

And so what I realized is this chapter was dedicated to giving people an awareness that how their partner fights isn't necessarily a sign of their partner loving them or not.

So let me give a real life example.

There's three fight styles that I break down in the book.

You have venters.

hiders and exploders.

Which one were you?

Do you know?

I'm like a unique combination of all three, just depending on my mood.

I'm definitely more of a venter in the sense where it's like, what I'm arguing about, it's usually not about that.

It's about something else that's going on.

And like, I'm just pissed and it has nothing to do with Ben or what I'm mad at him about.

Put your socks away, but it's, it's something else.

Yes.

That's, I think I'm mature enough to understand like, usually what I'm fighting about is not what I'm actually angry about.

Yeah, I'm a venter too.

So, so me and you are the same person, basically.

Pretty much.

And my wife's a hider, right?

She wants to go into her cage.

She wants to reflect about, is that what your husband is doing?

100%.

Like, and it's so frustrating because I'm like, get in here.

Let's just finish this.

And he's like, no, you know what?

And you know, it's smart because I'm very hotheaded.

And maybe if I did take a second to just calm down, I would be able to express my feelings better.

But I'm also, I'm productive.

I'm like, I run a business.

I'm like, where if I didn't, let's finish this now.

I don't have time for this.

And he's very more sensitive and more, honestly, level-headed.

So he'll go to the couch.

I won't see him for like 30 minutes and then he'll come back and be like, you know what?

Either this isn't even an argument worth having, like I'm over it.

Or now I'm able to communicate my feelings in it better.

It's, it's actually something like that annoys me about him, but I also really respect.

Yeah, I love that.

That's beautiful.

And then you have the exploder who needs to just feel emotionally hurt and they want to go into that space.

So let's take us.

We're the same and our partners are the same.

In the early years of my relationship with my wife, I really believe she didn't care when we fought because every time we had a fight, I would want to talk about it right now and she would want space.

Yeah.

And I would think, if you want distance and space, that means you are not as committed as I am.

You don't care about this as as much as I do.

And when I broke down the fight styles and I realized I'm a venter and she's a hider, it made me realize that actually

her love is processing like your husband's is.

Like they need time to process and reflect.

So they don't say something they don't mean.

They don't say something mean.

They don't say something hurtful.

They want to think about it.

And so now that we know that.

And my wife also understands that I'm a solver.

I'm a fixer.

I want to do it right now.

Solution oriented.

Solution oriented.

We now realize, okay, you need two days.

I need it now.

We're going to meet in 12 hours, right?

Like, we'll find that middle ground of what's healthy.

And so I really hope people use this as a tool, as a skill, as opposed to just carrying on having heated arguments.

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Even the concept of you breaking down how people fight and like what type of fighter you are provides like, um, I don't know, provides like peace in a sense, like knowing that, like, I'm not a crazy, one of my, I was telling you before, like, my biggest fear is like becoming like a bitch wife.

Like, I don't always want to be nagging, but it's like, pick up your socks.

Like, it's like, I struggle between like how I want to be perceived and how I'm naturally feeling.

And I think even just the, the way you broke down what type of fighter you are, I think can provide solace for a lot of people, knowing like this is a common relationship thing, because it feels good to know like other people go through the same thing.

Totally, totally.

And I just think it's also good to humanize the way we respond to conflict.

Yeah.

Like we need to humanize and normalize that if someone

explodes emotionally, someone wants to vent, someone wants to hide, these are really normal things.

And we don't start judging our partners or feeling guilty at how we now, like I said, toxic emotional abuse, like verbal abuse.

We're not talking about that.

Like if you're having those kind of arguments, that's a different story.

That's how you know it's gone too far.

But if you're also not comfortable to raise things, like I have this really uncomfortable thing, and I hope it's the right place to share.

Go for it.

I

do something uncomfortable with my wife probably every couple of months where I'll say, is this relationship going in the direction you want?

And if it's not,

are we willing to change?

And if it is, what are we doing right?

And I love asking that question.

And I don't ask that question because I think something's wrong.

I'm asking that question to make sure we stay on the right path.

That's so funny.

But if I couldn't ask that question without her feeling, if she felt insecure every time I asked that question, that would make it really tough.

So that's so funny.

I like literally once a month when we're like going to sleep, I'm like, I'm like, are you happy?

Like, I'm so paranoid that like, I'm, I, you know, I'm very, um, I'm self-involved, like I really am.

Um, and I'm always thinking of like what's going on in my life.

And, and I worry sometimes that like I like, I never want Ben to feel like forgotten almost.

And I'm always like paranoid that I'm being a good wife and that he's happy.

So I'm always like, Are you happy?

Like, you're feeling good, right?

Is there anything like you would tell me?

And like, I feel like he doesn't want to tell me stuff.

I'm like, tell me, like, part of it is paranoia, but also I think part of it is just like a genuine response for me, like really wanting, like, I love Ben with my whole heart.

I want him to be happy.

And I like live in fear that he's not.

Yeah, Chloe, nobody discovers me and you're the same person.

No, totally.

And when you say that, I was like, oh my God, I'm literally embarrassed.

Like, I did that too.

But it's good.

It's healthy.

To be honest, it's actually healthy because when you check in regularly with your partner, everyone gets a space to be honest.

Yeah, that's true.

If you didn't check in, you could literally, if you don't check in, that's when years from now, someone turns around to you and says, this is not working out.

And you are like, what do you mean it's not working out?

You never said anything.

Yeah.

And so I would rather people check in regularly and hear the truth in small doses because hearing the truth in a huge dose is really painful.

And so, listen to the truth in small doses.

It can change your life.

I also want him to feel comfortable.

You can tell me anything.

I'm your wife.

I love you.

Like, I would never, I would never judge you.

And he's so good.

Like, I don't even think he knows.

Like, he doesn't even try.

He's just like such a good person.

Like, he's so non-judgmental.

He's like, never made me feel embarrassed about anything.

He's loved me.

Like, you know, when I had a, you know, business was going great, business was going bad.

When I was high up on the scale, low on the scale.

He's never made me feel less than.

And I want that so badly for him.

And like, I try so hard.

And for him, it just comes so naturally.

Does he listen to the show?

No.

I'm going to make him listen to this one.

This is my wife.

I'm like, I do a podcast every day.

So like, okay, you can't listen to every single one, but I'm like, every now and then, really.

Yeah.

So also what I thought was interesting is like, love is an abstract topic.

So to write a whole book on like this thing that you don't see, you just feel, I felt like would have been a really hard task, but I found you like breaking down love in almost like an analytical way.

And I thought this was a really good way to like focus how you said to focus on whether you like someone's personality, whether you respect their values, and whether you would like to help them achieve their goals.

And I thought your wording on that was interesting because you said respect their values, not share their values.

And I, I want to believe that there's a world in which you can have a happy life with someone who you have different values from, but you respect their values.

But I feel like that's really hard.

Yeah.

Especially in like this, this time, in this country, I feel like people are so divided.

We're kind of conditioned to hate the people we disagree with.

But I thought your choice of wording there was intentional.

Yeah, very intentional.

And again, you're digesting this book left, right, and center.

I'm so impressed.

You've really like embodied the essence of what I'm trying to say, which is, which is so beautiful as an author to receive that from someone who's reading it.

So thank you.

Thank you so much for doing that.

Pleasure.

But it's exactly that.

Like, so I do like to.

analyze and make things systematic and give people principles and rules and boundaries because I think when you leave something abstract, it can get really messy.

Yeah.

Right.

Like I think what happens when you leave something completely abstract is you think you're feeling it, but then 10 months from now, you realize you were not feeling that at all when it all blows up in your face.

Right.

And I'm trying to help protect people.

I don't want people to waste time with the wrong person.

I don't want you to spend two years, three years, 10 years with someone and feel unfulfilled.

No.

So I'm just trying to set you up.

So if anyone goes, Jay, you're being too systematic, loves more feely, loves more this.

I'm just trying to help.

I just don't want you to.

It's like that in the movies, but in real life, like you're building a life with someone, you're having children with someone, you're going financially partnering with someone.

It's, it is analytical.

It is analytical, yeah.

And I, and I, I hope that that's what comes across.

And of course, by the way, I'm a romantic too.

Of course, I love love.

I'm like one of the most, yeah, I love romance.

Like, I love all of that too.

So the book's trying to infuse both.

Yeah.

But going back to your question, the reason why I chose those three things is because I realized that that, so these three elements are the difference between a relationship being a short-term relationship or a long-term relationship understanding the person's personality respecting their values and being committed to help them towards their goals now the reason why I said respecting their values I think it would be wonderful to live in a world where you find someone who has the exact same values but when you really know your values they're as unique as your fingerprint yeah that's how unique values are because i'll give you an example like yes my wife and i are both spiritual yes my wife and I both value kindness and compassion.

But if you looked at our deepest value and priority, my wife's is family and mine is my purpose.

I will constantly trade 99% of things in order to pursue my purpose.

And my wife will trade 99% of things to be with her family.

Right now, my wife is actually in hospital with her grandma in London.

She's not back in LA because her grandma's going through something and

that's a priority for her.

She will choose that above everything.

And of course, if she needed me there, I'd be with her too.

Of course.

But my point being that our values can be very similar and shared, but they're still like a Trump value.

That's actually so true.

Like, it's so personal.

Yeah.

Do you think that's why?

I mean, for me, at least, like, when I was dating and wanting to get married, I was searching within my own community.

I grew up Orthodox Jewish.

I knew I wanted to marry someone Orthodox Jewish.

One, because that's like an important part of who I am, you know, furthering the Jewish people, but also it does save you a lot of steps.

Like, in knowing, like, you know, you grew up similar to me.

We're probably going to align on most things.

I think it's like a, it's, it's kind of an easy way when you're going to look for someone.

And sometimes people hated the way they were raised and they reject that and they go in the total opposite direction and find happiness there.

But I think when it comes to like values, it's so,

it's so like a core of make, it makes you who you are.

So it's kind of easy just to look, you know.

look at the local shul.

Yeah, exactly.

And like you're saying, like there may be certain things that actually assume values.

Yeah.

But you may find even in that community community that people are very different.

So true.

And I think sometimes you're like, oh, yeah, of course, I know where they went to school.

I know what they're into.

So true.

And that sets you up for so much failure.

Like they did this study.

This study is amazing.

They did a study where partners had to watch video footage of each other and guess what the other person was angry about based on their emotion.

They found that couples who'd been together for longer guessed wrong more often because we assume we know the other person.

That's true.

And so that assumption of like, oh, I know where they went to school.

I know who their friends are.

I know what they're like.

That's a good reference.

But I think doing your own due diligence and your own discovery is probably healthier.

So the reason why I encourage the respecting of values is also because values change as people grow older.

And the skill is, do I respect this person for who they are?

Yeah.

Or do I want them to be who I want them to be?

And most people don't respect people's values because they think their values are better.

And so if I think, oh, no, my value of helping the world is better than X, Y, Z, then I'm expecting you to trade your value for me or vice versa.

And I found that when I respect my wife's values, not only does it make her happier and healthier, it actually heals our relationship.

And so, yes, I would love to live in a world where we had the exact same values.

Of course.

I just don't know if it's, I don't know if that's possible.

People are like, it's hard to find someone, you know.

Generally, it's hard to find someone with the same values.

Yeah.

Even when they're the same, they're different, which is your point.

And that's so true.

I noticed you don't wear a wedding ring.

I don't.

I never have.

That's so interesting.

Yeah, I never have.

I'll tell you why.

My wife never bought me one.

Oh, not you blaming Harvard.

Yeah, yeah.

That's, that's the reality.

Let's, let's start the banter.

So, so, so my wife never bought me one.

She's, my wife's a very spontaneous individual who doesn't do things on time.

And my wife lost hers in the first month of us being engaged.

She was at a supermarket.

She was swinging her keys around on her engagement ring and it must have fallen off.

and she thought i insured it i thought her dad insured it no one insured it and so now she she just has my initials tattooed on her

which i want to do too so yeah yeah yeah well speaking of your wife my final question for you on the book and then i am going to put you in the hot seat do it um i don't know why i was surprised that you shared so much about your personal marriage i mean obviously if you're going to write a book like i don't know i just i perceive you as this like extremely private person Do you have to get your wife's permission for stuff like that?

That's a great question.

Do I have to?

So I think the stories that I've told are stories I've told her or stories that she like would agree with my perspective on.

And so, yes, I would check in with her and say, hey, do you agree that this is the perspective of how this went?

I'm sure if she told the story, she'd tell it with a lot more color and different.

The perspective is everything.

Yeah, exactly.

Because it's not the same, right?

Like you could see the same story from two different angles.

And that's your truth, my truth, and the truth.

Exactly.

And so I do always check in with her before I share a story because I want to see what she has to say about it.

So yeah, absolutely.

She mixed anything from the book?

No, no, no, no, no, no.

She's, she's, she's like very, no, no, I don't think she did.

I definitely, she hasn't read it.

So she doesn't know yet.

It's fine.

My husband didn't read my book until like the day it came out.

Actually, it takes like four years to read my book.

We've had 15 copies in the house for two months, Rude.

Now, this is a pop culture show.

Yes.

We are like kind of obsessed with celebrities, and you've had the distinct privilege of interviewing a lot of celebrities, being invited to a lot of fabulous events.

So I'm just going to be in the Hotsi for a second, and you have to answer some questions.

I like doing this with you because this is what you do.

And so yeah i feel very comfortable who is it you've had amazing people on your podcast kendall jenner chloe kardashian kevin hardleyshi kiselina gomez everyone who is a guest that came on your podcast and surprised you the most in a positive way surprised me the most in a positive way maybe you had some preconceived notions about this person yeah it means it has to be someone i had preconceived notions about and so one thing i'll definitely say is that i'm very fortunate that a lot of the guests that come on the podcast are people that i know before they come on the podcast so i don't always have preconceived notions because i may have already interacted with them but let's think who surprised us positively?

Yeah, I'll say that in a nice way.

So I'd connected with Kendall at a mutual friend's birthday party.

She was super sweet at the party.

We'd gotten along.

And then I'd messaged her and said, hey, I'd love to interview you on the show.

And she responded back immediately, like full of enthusiasm.

And I think what was really beautiful for me to see was just like.

how much she was excited by it.

Yeah.

And this is the part that really got me.

And I sent it to the team the morning of like, she messaged me the morning of saying i'm so excited to share energy today yeah on the morning of the show and that it's not because i had i didn't have any negative preconceived notions of her because we'd met but i was blown away by that because it was so conscious after the podcast i had a text saying oh my god i love doing that like it was just so present yeah and even with my whole team on the day like whether we were like signing our guest book or like taking pictures she was like laughing with the team and connecting with them and so present i was thinking you know she she never you know she didn't check the camera once.

She didn't edit any pictures.

Like, she was just so comfortable the whole time.

And that's so nice to hear.

Yeah, I want people to know that about her because

I consider her to be, you know, a wonderful human.

And I feel like that was one of your most impactful interviews.

Like, I think so many people have preconceived notions.

And I'm a Kardashian fan till the day I die.

I will defend them in the depth to the comment section.

But there are, you know, they're probably the most famous family.

And I think there's the most kind of, you know,

fallacies out there about them.

And people just think that they know them.

And I feel, I remember the reaction to the interview with her being so positive, seeing clips everywhere at people being like, wow, I totally misjudged Kendall.

And I feel like that's the best thing that can happen when someone comes on your podcast, like really showing people who a famous person is because we don't know.

Nobody knows.

Yeah.

And she was definitely like, she's as true as she came across that day, if not more.

That's nice to hear.

Yeah, yeah.

So you also recently famously officiated Ben and Jen's wedding, which was very private.

We didn't get to to see any pictures from the inside.

So I need you to tell us in one word, what did it look like on the inside?

Oh, it was,

I could tell you more than one word.

Yeah, one word might be hard.

It was absolutely, what was really beautiful about the wedding is it was actually very intimate and private.

Even in who was attending, it was close family, very close friends.

It wasn't.

you know, what people expect of a celebrity wedding where it's like, oh, everyone's just, yeah, everyone's, it was just very beautiful and just intimate and personal and like warm.

And like, it was just,

it was, it was love, right?

And that, there's something really special about experiencing something that way.

I remember like, and this is something I want, this is a good place to address it.

Whenever I read news articles about events that I'm at or people that I know deeply in this space, it had a whole list of the guest list of who came.

I promise you, 90% of that list wasn't there.

A hundred percent.

And that's the kind of stuff where I'm always a bit like, well, who's reporting this?

Because that person wasn't there.

That never happened.

That's not the truth.

And it, and it's uncomfortable because I'm like, you know, it's, it's real people's lives.

It's frustrating.

You want to just.

All of us are.

Yeah.

All of us are.

But it was, it was truly special, very intimate, very real, very, uh, yeah, really beautiful.

Kind of like a beautiful full circle love story.

Yeah.

But when you think back, because I remember when I was growing up, it was like Ben and Jen, Ben and Jen, and then like he loved.

And it was like, it was kind of like a fairy tale for, I think a lot of women like looked at that and was like, wow.

Yeah.

And, and just about how much growth they, and, and a beautiful reminder that there was so so much individual growth

to reconnect again at the right time.

So true.

And to have 20 years apart to realize that that was the right thing to do.

Because I think so often when we break up with someone or things end, we think that's the worst thing.

It's everything's worse.

Everything's gone.

And realizing that actually that may be the best evolution.

And whether you end up with someone or not.

that may be an amazing path.

So what a, what a beautiful lesson for all of us.

And yeah,

it was an honor to do it.

And yeah, little, little did I know I'd be doing that.

So that was iconic.

we were honestly we were really happy because any podcaster succeeding is a win-for-all podcast i agree i love that yeah i feel that way too i love that you have famously been on ellen yes what was ellen like so i have to so i've been on ellen four times wow uh in the last four years so ever since we met and i remember a year before i went on ellen i remember i just moved to la

and i did the studio tour and I was a big fan of Ellen from London.

And I remember going on the studio tour and like, you know, being on the lot and everything and thinking, oh, it'd be amazing to be on Ellen one day.

And then later on that year, I got invited on.

So the first time I went on,

Ellen came up to me

in the green room and said hello, just to welcome me to the show, which was super sweet.

Then after that, when I came on stage, when she gave me a hug, so like you're sitting like this on the Ellen show, she gives you a hug when you walk on.

And she whispered in my ear, she said, I'm so thankful you're here.

Like just really, like the almost time slowed down.

Right.

Then we sat down, we did an interview.

And the whole time I thought she was going to banter with me and make jokes.

Right.

And she was like really serious.

So if you watch our first interview, I'm like, I'm super nervous.

Right.

And I'm thinking like, she's going to make fun of this and that.

And she doesn't.

She was just very present.

And then at the end, she's, she whispered in my ear again.

She goes, I hope I can have you on all the time.

Wow.

And I was just like, for someone to be that present and personal, and she's someone that I've spent.

considerable amount of time with afterwards as well.

Any personal interaction I've had with her,

she's really been present, personal,

extremely kind.

and uh this year my wife and i got invited to go to rwanda with her oh wow to her gorilla conservation center and so for three days we trekked with gorillas wow mountain gorillas and just what she's built there and and she that's amazing yeah and everyone who is there traveling with her has been with her for like 20 years so we were like the new people on the group right uh like in the sense that i've only known her for four years and everyone else is like 20 years in the team and she's surrounded by some really wonderful people so

again my my experience has been positive and i appreciate what i'm sharing is my experience.

Of course, you can only speak from.

Yeah, I'm only speaking from my experience.

But yeah, she's been really warm to me.

I'm so grateful to her.

And she's also always trying to help other people.

Like I've seen her like.

reach out to other people in the queer community and in other communities wanting to support.

And even when someone's going through the tough time, if you're her friend, she's loyal.

So if you've gone through a difficult moment or anything like that,

she's ride or die for you.

And so that's rare too, because in this industry, it's like someone's going through a rough path.

Everyone's just like, I don't want to be around you.

know and so i i would honestly say that those are some of her best qualities okay i appreciate your honesty now the final question i have for you is because i'm so nosy um you've had many celebrities on your podcast whose has garnered the most downloads oh that's uh helene you've also had kobe prim kobe ryan on your podcast which is

let's say like the the first two weeks like you know immediately if like an episode is going to pop off like

Kendall was huge.

Yeah.

Kendall was unbelievable.

Wow.

I think it was because she was so again, like you said, like people don't really know her or know much about her.

It was behind the curtain.

Kevin Hart.

Yeah, Kevin's, yeah, yeah, yeah, Kevin's, yeah.

Kevin right now.

And like in the beginning, I remember like, you know,

Kobe Bryant has been one of those episodes that for people go back to

speak to him.

I've seen clips of it all over TikTok.

A few months ago before he passed away,

you know, just super tragic.

Yeah.

But grateful I got to have that moment with him.

Yeah, the Will Smith episode in that year that it came out.

That was the year before.

That was huge.

They're evergreen episodes, right?

Yes.

So if anybody is, you know,

they're on YouTube, they're on YouTube.

You can go back and it's not like it's so timely.

It's about the person in general, not about the day.

And also it's the cumulative growth of the podcast, right?

Like we're naming Kendall and Kevin from this year because the show has got bigger is when we started.

But

it's been interesting to me also.

What's really beautiful is when the guest helps.

share it as well.

Of course, and opening you up to a new community.

A big thank you to Kevin and Kendall who just, you know, were sharing it with their community.

The book is so good.

Honestly, it's called Eight Rules of Love: How to Find It, Keep It, and Let It Go.

When is the release date?

31st, January.

January 31st.

You pre-order it now, get a copy of it.

It's really good, whatever phase of life that you're in.

Thank you so much for being here.

It's been such a pleasure to talk to you.

This has been so much fun.

We're going to do this again.

This is too much fun.

Thank you guys so much for listening to the toast.

We'll see you on the next one.

Deuces.