E961 Ask Nick - Is My Pastor Dad A Scammer?

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You're crazy.

How's it going?

Good.

I'm Rachel and I'm 33 and I'm wondering if I should give my dad $125,000.

Okay.

How rich are you?

Not that rich.

Okay.

But you have $125,000 in cash to give him and money left over?

I do not.

I have some of that, but not that much now.

Why is your dad asking you for $125,000?

Yeah.

So when I was 17 and went to college, he took out student loans in my, not in my name, but in his name, but the parent plus student loans

with an agreement that I would pay him back eventually.

So a lot of things have changed since then.

And when I first graduated like from college from my undergrad and then I got my master's, I did pay him back some.

We were doing a payment plan, and he was paying them monthly, and I would pay a portion of it.

But since then, they went into like deferment with like COVID and different stuff.

And then a lot of different factors have changed.

He hasn't paid any of the interest, so it's $125,000.

And he reached out to me a couple weeks ago and said, Hey, it's time.

Let's sit down and discuss it.

And he asked me for $125,000.

Okay.

So, but

the things that have changed over the past couple of years is so about

two and a half years ago.

So my dad is a pastor, was a pastor growing up, right?

Okay.

And about two and a half years ago, he got caught having an affair with the worship leader at our church.

So in the past two years, my mom and dad went through a pretty messy divorce.

And a lot of that was for financial reasons.

And in the paperwork from court,

he says that the student loans are his sole responsibility.

Which means what?

Which means legally, it's his to pay the $125,000

of mine and anybody else's, my siblings, are his sole responsibility legally.

So he said that or the court said that?

He agreed to it.

The court decided that.

So they sit down and divorce.

and they decided and that's what he agreed to.

That's the financial contribution that he took away from the divorce.

Alleviating your mom from that burden, I'm guessing, right?

Yes.

Okay.

But how do you look at that?

Like when you, when you say that to me, like, how do you interpret that as it relates to this story?

Well, my mom said that if that he made it look like he was kind of like the superhero dad taking on the student loan debt for all of us.

And that if we pay him back for it, she wants to take him back to court because he's not holding up his financial side of their divorce.

Wow.

So you're getting, you're getting pulled into the middle of

this.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Well, I'm sorry.

I also just think he asked me, so when we sat down, it wasn't like a payment plan.

It wasn't like, hey, this is how much per month.

Like, I also have student notes in my own name because I'm getting my doctorate right now.

Like, I'm almost finished with my PhD.

It's complicated, but it wasn't any options like that.

He was, he told me that he needs to get out of debt, that he has an opportunity that he wants to pursue, and that he would need to pay that off.

And so I sold a house a few years ago and made a decent amount of money from that.

So he basically asked me to take all of the money that I have and give it to him so that he can get out of debt while I'm still in debt.

Okay.

Wow.

Yeah, a lot of layers here, right?

So I'm guessing you feel like, well, one,

I'm assuming your relationship with your father has soured quite a bit yes and when he says i have this kind of financial opportunity a do you know what it is out of curiosity and do you feel you know does it does he seem like a dreamer like who could be really bad with money yes yes i'm assuming he's buying a vacation home with his new wife because he married the mistress two weeks after their divorce oh is he still a pastor or did he get kicked out no no He is not.

He had to resign.

Okay.

All right.

What's he doing now?

He is selling meat.

Okay.

Like to butcher shops.

Yeah.

Okay.

Praise Jesus.

Well, okay.

So like, let's try to break this down here.

You know, I don't know what conversations you had with your dad or the details.

Obviously, you mentioned like he took out a loan.

I'm not familiar with this like parent child student loan thing, but it sounds like it was a thing, right?

And where you went to your parents, your dad at the time when he wasn't, when he was still a pastor and married your mom, and he took out a loan on your behalf with the assumption that you both agreed that you would pay him back over time.

Is that correct?

Yes.

So the parent plus loans are typically for the parents to pay for their students.

There's no, like, it's in their name.

Typically, parents pay them.

But our verbal agreement at 17 was that I would pay his and mine.

Help me understand the parent plus thing.

Cause like when I was, when I was growing up, just for example, right?

Like we, we didn't have money.

You know, I had 10 siblings after me.

So I was lucky enough to get some athletic scholarships, partial scholarships.

Then I took out student loans.

I don't think this parent plus thing was available.

But even if it was, I can guarantee you that my parents might have taken it out, but like they would, you know, I would, I would have definitely been responsible.

My parents could afford to pay my college, right?

It was, it was up to me.

And every family, I'm sure, is different, right?

Some people are more privileged and, you know, they, they, they, they spend, you know, as soon as their kids are born, they, they start college funds for their kids.

I definitely did not have that.

for me, but what agreement did you have with your father back then, you know, other than like, other than eventually you're going to have to pay this back?

That's all it was.

Was, I mean, I don't think my parents knew very much about it.

They're very young.

They were like 19 when they had me.

So they took out these, it was just an option.

So they're completely in their name.

If he never pays them back, it impacts his credit.

He knew this, signing it, all these things.

I was 17.

So I thought I was going pre-med.

I was going to be a doctor.

I was like, oh, yeah, I'll pay it back.

You know, you don't really know.

anything about money when you're 17.

So he took these in his name.

It'd be like if I bought you a car in my name and you were like, oh, yeah, I'll pay you back someday, but you're not on any of the paperwork.

And then

later I come to you and I'm like, hey, you owe me this.

Yeah.

So technically, what you're saying to me is like legally,

if you tell your dad no, you're good.

And I guess he could, I guess he could choose to sue you if he wanted to.

And like anyone can sue anyone for anything.

I guess that's possible.

But even then, he could, but

totally.

Yeah, he couldn't.

He signed them.

He took them out.

There's nothing to stand on.

Yeah.

Yeah, other than like, hey, my 17-year-old daughter promised me she would pay me back,

you know, 12 years later.

Let me ask you this.

Try to be as honest as possible because, you know, you are calling.

And, you know, so there's some part of you that wonders if you should.

Like, I'm guessing you called in to try to do the right thing, whatever the right thing is.

But, like, how much of your decision is based off the fact that your dad screwed over your mom, blew up your entire family's life, and is acting incredibly selfish the past few years a lot of it so he also to give you some context my younger brother and sister-in-law do not talk to my dad at all they haven't in the two years since the divorce my sister-in-law has uterine cancer she's 23 and has uterine cancer my dad still hasn't reached out hasn't talked has tried but he's blocked so he you know He sent a letter to their house asking, saying, I love you.

I wish we could talk.

By the way, you owe me 30,000.

Let's figure out how to get it paid.

So some context.

It feels like he's prioritizing this money over us.

And it feels like he's prioritizing his new wife, which in the process of the divorce, we were like, hey, dad, if you want to divorce mom, that's totally fine.

Just kind of leave this lady out of it until it's done.

He didn't do so.

He moved in with her, like all these different things.

So it feels like there's just a lot of different decisions that have gone into the last few years.

Like I said, I was paying them.

And then as the last few years have progressed, and as he's sitting across from me, basically asking for everything that I've worked for in the last 10 years, where I'm now trying to get out of debt myself, pay off my PhD,

and I'm going to be getting married soon.

And my future husband doesn't want me to pay his money.

So yeah, it's messy.

Yeah, definitely.

And yeah, I totally, I mean, you have no assurances.

I mean, I guess technically it doesn't matter, but emotionally, it definitely matters knowing that like in the back of your mind, you're thinking, why would I give $125,000 to this woman who blew up my family's life and my dad left for?

Because ultimately, he is, he is doing her bidding and he's trying to make her happy in the new stage of this marriage.

And he needs this money for her.

And like, fuck that.

Right, exactly.

And if they want to figure it out, if they want to get out of debt, there's other things that they could do.

Sure.

And if I want to pay him back someday, I can do that, but not in a big lump sum.

Well, I mean, for starters, just just like

we can agree that your dad's request to just pay you $125,000 right now is bullshit, right?

Like, yeah.

I mean,

it's still, you know, listen, it's, it's, I think people should like, you know, do the right thing and honor their agreements and things like that.

You were only 17.

I think there's a, the part of you that's reaching out and asking is that like, despite being 17, my guess is like, you remember that agreement and you remember the intention of being like, yeah,

I'm going to do the right thing and pay my dad back.

And not anticipating that 10 years later, he would pull all this shit and then it would become this messy thing.

I want you to make the decision.

without using the I was 17 and I didn't know anything about money excuse because my gut tells me that like you're kind of using that as an excuse to justify whatever you try to do.

It's really important these moments to just kind of own your decision without trying to justify your decision.

Whatever you decide is not going to be perfect because of all the variables of this decision that, like, you didn't anticipate, right?

But I think it's absolute bullshit that your dad is expecting or even asking you to just like write him a check for $125,000, even if that means you taking out another loan or like just burning through your entire savings, especially since you are not only paying off your PhD, but like planning on like paying for a wedding, which clearly dad's not helping out with that.

You know, so he actually said he would, which is kind of ironic.

Yeah, yeah, in the same breath at the same coffee and date, yeah.

Yeah, if it's like, give me that money that he claims is yours, so then I will give you a little bit of it back to pay for your wedding.

He's like, you know, he's

which I think partially because it would be a public thing, so he could publicly say he did this, he paid for the wedding or the reception.

Is your dad a prideful man?

I would say so, yes.

Yeah, okay, despite your dad's clear imperfections, I hope that you, and it seems like you are, try to maintain, like, just, you only have one dad kind of thing.

For sure.

Kind of.

So actually,

do you want to know the other part of the story?

Sure.

So in the process of the divorce, I found out that he's not my biological dad.

What?

And they had lied to me for 30 years.

Yeah, yeah.

So

who is your?

Oh my God.

I don't know.

Oh, my God.

Whoa.

Do you look like him?

No, clearly not.

I look like my mom.

Okay.

Yeah.

How did it come up?

Well, I had some suspicions.

My grandma had made a couple of comments just like offhand.

And like once I saw a picture of my mom pregnant and was like, oh, she would have been pregnant with me in that picture.

And my grandma like looked at me and was like, if you have any questions, you can ask me.

Or just like random stuff like that.

That I was like, what?

What the hell?

Like, that's weird.

And then.

I don't know.

Yeah.

So I had some random suspicions.

So when this all like came to be, the divorce, like it all all exploded really.

Just one day we kind of found out different stuff.

And I was sitting down with my dad, because I was really close with my dad before all of this.

And I was sitting down with him.

And I was like, what is going on?

And he was like, there's just a lot.

There's a lot you don't know.

And I looked at him and I was like, maybe, or maybe I do.

And he like looked at me and I was like, I don't know.

I was like, I have my suspicions.

And he looked at me and I was like, are you my dad?

And he was like, I'm your dad.

And he's like, don't ever say that.

And I was like, but biologically.

And he's like, no.

So, yeah.

Do you know whose decision was it to not tell you?

I'm assuming your mom's.

My mom says it was my dad's because my dad, so my parents, my mom knew you were my dad.

This is after the divorce.

After the divorce that she said it was my dad's decision.

Yes.

But she said it was because he, she doesn't, she didn't want me to, he didn't want me to ever think differently of him.

He wanted the relationship with me.

He didn't want all of this.

But also they said that

that was part of the reason why they got married.

Have you seen your birth certificate?

Is he on your birth certificate?

Your biological?

He is not.

Well, so I have two because he adopted me.

So my first was in my mom's maiden name and he's not on that one, but then the other after adoption.

And you only got all this paperwork after you found out?

I had seen the birth certificate before.

That was one of my suspicions.

But they weren't married at the time they got married, like a year later.

So I thought they just changed my name when they got married.

Or I thought maybe my mom had multiple partners and like didn't know or something gotcha and is have you asked your dad

have you asked your dad why you guys didn't tell him does he have a different version no basically the same he says that like he wanted that relationship with me he didn't want me to treat him any differently he didn't want me to think anything okay How do you feel about that?

Just out of curiosity.

I don't know.

I mean, it's been a couple of years since I found out.

Obviously, it was kind of hard.

I still don't know who my biological dad is.

And I don't really care to know.

Like my dad, the dad that I'm talking about today is my dad by all sense, besides a sperm that contributed to me kind of thing.

There was like some like health thing, like I did like 23 in me to find out like what my ancestry is and some like health questions I've had, but that's it really.

Wow.

Okay.

And what would I do if I were you?

Well, okay, we're not.

And also your dad.

So can you imagine like your daughter someday?

Like you'll be in a financial place, obviously, to pay for her college, but had you not and made this agreement and then later in life she came back to you and was just like, I'm not like, you know what I mean?

Yeah, no, it's a true.

I feel like it's a lot to ask.

Yeah, I mean, it's hard for me to say what I think I would do in this particular situation because it would just be very easy for me to say, of course, I would never do that.

I mean, like, I would like to think that, you know, despite my, you know, ability to support my, my daughter as of today, like, if I wanted to today, I could just be like, I got your college, right?

Like, I hope that's the case 18 years from now.

But I don't, I don't want to spoil my kids and I would probably figure out a way to teach her some kind of fiscal responsibility and things like that.

If I were in your dad's financial position, I would like to think that I would make you pay and, but set up some kind of like structured plan right like the fact that you the fact that this never came up until your dad needed the money is I guess shady on his part in a way like it feels as opposed to you know when you were 17 that was an opportunity for him to sit you down and be like all right I want to go to school I want you to educate yourself but like eventually you're gonna have to pay me back and let's just degree that like once you get out of college you're gonna have to start paying me at a certain type of interest rate you know things like that like my I I bought that lake house for my parents.

My parents move up to the lake house.

And so my, my brother bought the house I grew up in from my parents, right?

So he technically took out a loan from my dad and they had my uncle, who's a lawyer, write a contract.

And my, my brother has to pay an interest rate, you know, like he has to

legally, even though it's his dad who, you know, it's, you know, but legally, my brother is obligated to follow certain rules and pay a certain interest rate and things like that.

Right.

And so I probably, if you're asking me what I would have done, I probably would have done something like that.

And not, you know, and again, even if I didn't need the money, it's really about like, again,

I would have wanted to teach my child some kind of like responsibility and fiscal responsibility and

yada, yada.

But your dad didn't do all that.

So.

And to be fair, when I finished my master's degree, I did pay him.

Like we sat down.

Oh, yeah, yeah, and I paid him a portion I paid.

He doesn't know.

He denies that I paid him, but I did.

I could go back in my bank and like how much do you think it would be like six years ago?

I think it was like $700 a month for three years.

Okay.

Yeah.

And then why'd you stop?

Because I went back to school.

Um, and then COVID happened and the loans went into deferment.

So that's the other thing: he took out originally, I think it was like 48,000 or something.

And now it's 125,000 with all of the interest that he could have been paying those to and still made a payment plan or something too.

Wow.

Damn.

Yeah, that's a really good point because he decided to manage how he decided to manage this financial situation.

He was in charge of it.

You certainly weren't in charge of it.

It was not even top of mind.

He made certain decisions that turned $45,000 worth of debt into $125,000 worth of debt.

And he wants you to now like foot the bill for that $125,000.

Okay, that's actually very helpful.

So, well, I mean, first of all, you don't have to do anything.

You can just be like, no.

Yeah.

If you want.

If you wanted to try.

That's what my brother is choosing to do, the one who got the letter.

It's just like.

I'm assuming he's their biological father.

Not that that really matters part of the story.

Yes, yes.

And he looks just like my dad, so no denying that.

So, yeah, listen, if you wanted to do this, feeling like you did the right thing, guilt-free with the, you know, acknowledging that I have some kind of responsibility to this money.

Like, it's not, I did agree to pay this man back.

A lot of things happen, but all that aside,

it feels a little wrong to say, fuck off, I'm not going to pay you, which is partly out of spite for his actions that, you know, because there's a lot of hurt there.

So I would say, one,

how you handled that debt when I was like going, when I was in college and

barely even adult is like your responsibility, like not mine.

So like, as far as I'm concerned, I owe you $45,000, not $125,000.

I'm not in a position to start paying you right now because of the obvious things.

And like, you can't, you don't get to just show up 12 years later with a bill demanding payment, you know, that like, quite honestly, like, I'm not even legally obligated to pay, you know, but I want to do the right thing.

And so

I can start paying you at a certain time, at a certain rate, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And you can dictate terms.

You can be like, this is what I decided to do.

It's kind of a take it or leave it offer.

And you could just say like, dad, I mean, I love you.

And I'm, you know, I'm a lot angry with you and blah, blah, blah.

But like, you handle your finances a certain way.

And it's not my responsibility to like make up for your poor choices, of which you made many.

So, you know, you got to deal with it.

But like, I am grateful for you helping me out when I was 17.

And I do feel like I do owe you that money.

And I want to, and I do want to be responsible for what I said I owed you.

And, and, you know, I'm, I can, I've already paid you blah, here are the receipts, yada, yada, yada.

Yeah, you can go from, you know, there, and then, like, I don't know, like, interest, you know, I don't know how you want to figure that part out, if, if, whatever, but because you probably should be paying, I guess, some interest, I, I suppose, on that, but I mean, and again, like, I don't get to decide what the right thing is, like, you're just asking my opinion.

It's just like, I guess that would be

maybe the fairest way for you to try to quote unquote do the right thing, you know?

And I honestly, this is mostly based off the idea that like humans are clearly imperfect.

I don't think this is reason for alienating your, your dad for the rest of your life.

This is a man who did, you know, who took you in and raised you and loved you and

you felt loved and you felt like you had a father.

And I think that's.

very meaningful.

For sure.

Yeah.

I definitely don't want it to

completely ruin our relationship or what's left of it.

Yeah.

And I don't, I don't want to just screw him over.

I don't want to just say, like, fuck you, dad.

Like, here you go.

But

I'm not going to do it on his terms.

Yeah.

And you don't have to.

So I think it's kind of some version of that where it's just like, you know, you kind of figure out what you owe him and what you think you can afford and try to come up with something that is reasonable and,

you know, start paying him back at a,

you know, a monthly installments

and you can tack on a little interest.

I don't know, you know, like, and it's kind of a take it or leave it offer, you know?

As far as your mom being like, well, if you decide to pay him back, I'm going to take him back to court.

I would try to talk your mom out of that.

It's just going to cost her money.

It's just going to be messy.

It's just like, essentially, your mom's going to be spending her money on lawyers.

It's just like, if your mom does that, and I'm assuming in some way, the money you pay your dad is eventually just going to go to lawyers.

So like if your mom really is, i wouldn't tell your mom honestly because it's just gonna yeah i mean i don't want you to lie to your mom but i don't

if she really is planning on doing it she's not doing anyone any good including herself because like if i'm understanding what you're saying is like my your dad just took on a financial liability and honestly helped your mom i don't know why like what's she going to court for to get some of that responsibility well so i mean they were going to court for the divorce because they'd been married for 30 years.

But essentially, there was a lot of money that had been missing.

My dad had like secret accounts and like money had been got going missing for a while that my mom thinks he was giving to his mistress the whole time.

Like she thinks that they were together for like seven years before

they found out and that he was paying for different things.

So the court was very drawn out to get all of these financial records.

It was really just a financial,

like that was was it.

It was what they were fighting over because all the kids were grown.

But what I'm saying is, your dad assumed the liability of the debt.

So, like, when people get divorced, you have, you have assets, you have debt, right?

You know, you, so you could have a million dollars of assets, and you could have $1.2 million in debt.

So, like, and then, so it turns out you're actually, you owe $200,000, even though you have a million dollars in assets, right?

So, they basically, I'm guessing they split up who, you know, someone gets these assets, someone gets these assets, and then they also split up the debt.

So, your dad took on that debt which alleviated your mom from that debt so like is she gonna go back to court to like say i want some of that debt no but she had her own student loans i guess i don't know so she thought for he got out of taking a portion of hers she thought because he was going to pay ours oh so it's like oh if you if you pay your father then i want him to basically he got zero in his mind and she's like well i have this but you didn't take half of this gotcha all right that makes sense because it looks like on paper he was getting the harder hit.

But in reality, in his mind, if he was still asking us for all this money, he wasn't taking any hit.

Yeah, I'd still try to leave mom out of it because I think it's just, it would just be

unnecessarily messy.

Yeah, it's some version of that.

I mean, you don't owe this, you know, you don't really owe him anything

technically,

legally.

It's something like that, where you dictate terms and you come with the receipts.

Not like, let's figure this out.

It's just like, hey, I want to address your ask.

You come with a folder, a binder, you show them the receipts, and you just flat out say, I'm not paying you $125,000.

Most of this is interest.

That was, you know, you didn't pay it off over, you know, you let the interest accrue.

I was, I was going to college.

I wanted to done it that way, but quite honestly, I wasn't like in charge of it.

You were.

And I am not, no, I'm not currently like, I'm not going to be paying for your financial choices because, and, and if you, depending how petty you want to go and you want to point out, you could say, like, clearly, like, I don't want to get into it with you, but you and mom went for the divorce, but clearly we all know that like there was a lot of speculation about like where, how you were spending money and where it was going.

And that could have been going to pay off this debt that has now like accrued to $125,000.

And so I'm just simply not covering that.

I owe you, I borrowed $45,000 from you that I agreed to pay.

I've paid you already $10,000 or whatever it is.

And so I owe you $35,000 left.

And so I'll start paying you now, but

I can only pay you in monthly installments.

You can decide whether you want to tack on some interest rate starting like now until you pay it off.

That'd be going above and beyond.

And you can do that and just say, hey,

I hope that you see this knowing that some of your other family members, they're not going to pay you, by the way,

just so you know, because legally they don't have to.

I want to do the right thing.

Despite all your choices and the hurt you've caused this family and me and our relationship, I still love you.

I still want to have a relationship.

And this is me me doing what I think is the right thing.

And I hope that you appreciate that.

And

this is where we're at.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, I agree.

That's that's kind of how I left it with him.

I said, like, it's definitely not going to be a lump sum.

I said, I'm still not sure.

Like, legally, I don't owe you anything, but ethically and morally, I'm not sure where I stand on it.

And I was like, I'm going to need some time to decide, but it would be on my terms.

And I was like, and that's probably going to be more of a payment plan, if anything.

What do you say?

Is what I left it with with him he was upset at first but by the end of the conversation he like gave me a hug and said that he loves me and like nothing that I decided was going to change that um and we kind of left it like that he did say he would email me all of the numbers and this was a couple weeks ago I never got the numbers so I'm not sure of where he's at on it now.

I think you're handling it the best possible way in a messy situation.

And

I think you got to give yourself some credit for that and some grace because,

I mean, you've already seen how your siblings are handling it, which is different than yours.

Holding on to anger and resentment and grudges, it doesn't help you.

You know, it just,

it's a toxic negative energy that just brings you down.

And yeah, I think you'll feel good trying to do the right thing.

And I think it'll motivate you.

You'll make up that money.

And then some, you know?

So what do I do about the fact that my future husband doesn't want me to pay it?

When are you guys getting married?

We haven't set a date yet.

He doesn't want you to do any of it.

Essentially, that's it.

Nothing.

He's just like, fuck that.

Basically, he's like, it's your dad's responsibility and the way that he's treated me.

Obviously, he doesn't have the relationship aspect of it.

The part of your fiancé that wants to have your back and be protective and

say things like, he didn't.

treat you.

He doesn't deserve this based on how he treat you.

I think we can chalk that up into him wanting to be a protective partner to you.

But ultimately, you're in a position to say, I appreciate you having my back, but like, I feel good about this decision and I want to do this.

And while I understand your point of view, what I want, what I really need from you is to support me in my decision because this is making me feel good because this is like, yeah, because you're calling, you want to do the right thing, right?

You know what I'm saying?

You know, you don't have to pay your dad.

So this is about what you want to do because you don't want this hanging over your head.

You don't want your dad's mess to be brought into your life and yeah you still in a relationship with this man and and you're trying to work through this bullshit and all this like toxicity of of other people's decisions so that you know hopefully in five years or whatever like the the dust can settle and you guys can move forward with your life and yeah and and you are betting on yourself and your ability to like figure this shit out make some money and And I respect the hell out of that.

And I think that's great.

That all being said, you know, he is your fiancé fiancé and your future husband.

So from a financial aspect, I think you guys should try to be on the same page in terms of where this money is going.

You're not married yet.

It's not his money.

So he doesn't really have a say, but I would like, I think you should try to be on the same page.

But I think it's more about, you know, if you decide to do this, explaining to your fiancé why.

And asking him to have your back because this is a decision that you feel is right and something you want to do.

And you're not doing it because you, you know, you don't have to.

And so you want to, you know, I just don't want it to turn into a like, who am I choosing my dad or him?

Well, here, I hope that your fiancé doesn't put you in that position.

You know, again, he's not your husband, he's your fiancé.

And then, you know, it's not his money.

He doesn't have the right to, you know, he's not, you're not spending his money and you don't need another guy in your life telling you what to do with your money.

So I think, I hope that you can articulate this to your fiancé.

And I hope he can say, well, hey, I don't, I don't agree with it, but I, I understand what you're saying and i i support you whatever you decide i support you especially because again this is about you feeling like you did the right thing and this is about you feeling like i need to do this because i don't want this hanging over my conscience i don't want this to feel like you know my family is already torn apart and i i can handle this you know i'm not paying him as 125 000 i'm certainly not going to pay him a lump sum but like i i did agree to this man to pay him back and i'm i'm and i'm gonna stick to my word, you know?

Like, your fiancé should be able to respect that.

I hope that your fiancé doesn't make you feel like you have to choose between him and your dad.

And I hope your fiancé understands the importance of still trying to have a relationship with this man, your father.

He should definitely support that.

I think, yeah, I mean, dad issues are a real thing.

They affect our decisions, especially women when they're relationships with men.

Your fiancé should appreciate how emotionally mature mature you've tried to handle this situation despite its challenges because they're, you know, you are, you are trying to work through a very difficult situation and one that you were a victim of, essentially.

You know, like you didn't, you didn't choose to be lied to your whole life about your biological father.

You didn't choose for your father to like leave your mother and blow up your family life.

And now you are trying to handle this.

And like most people don't handle this way in the future.

You, you two are going to get married and shit's going to happen.

And this is a demonstration of how you handle very difficult times and you're handling it in the best possible way.

And you're not leading with what you deserve.

You know, you're not leading with, I'm the victim and how do I get, you know, and that's a rare and good quality.

And I hope your fiancé recognizes that.

Yeah, I think he does.

His big thing is just that he wants me to get out of debt and like pay my loans first before he prior before I prioritize my dad's.

debt and like lifestyle.

Yeah.

I mean, I think that's totally fair.

And maybe you, you can meet in the middle or whatever.

But yeah, I think you definitely dictate terms.

And if you can't afford to pay it right now, and if paying your dad means you can't pay off loans that are accumulating interest rate right now, then maybe he doesn't get it right now.

Maybe you're like, hey, I do owe you this money.

I can't afford to pay you now.

You don't get to just show up at my door and just say, you owe me.

It's been like 12 years.

So like,

this is mostly based off of the fact that you've made bad decisions and you've spent money on things that you shouldn't have spent it on.

And that's not my fault.

So yeah, I mean, I'm with him there.

So for sure.

Nothing's saying that my dad can't pay it off.

And that's what I told him.

He can do whatever he wants.

If he wants to, I think his wife has multiple properties.

If they want to sell one and he pays it off, it doesn't change my decision.

I can still pay him what I think is fair either way.

Yeah, exactly.

And he can be out of debt.

So yeah, get on the same page with your fiancé.

Make sure he supports your decision.

And make sure he understands the reason.

And then you guys can figure out what you guys think is fair for you.

Yeah.

Like it's like hey i appreciate you having my back but he actually has to almost tweak how he has your back because he has to get on he has to say babe i'm really proud of you and this is a difficult situation and whatever you decide you obviously have good judgment you've thought this through and and i support you in your decision and we'll get through this together yeah cool

all right yeah well let me know what you decide i'd love a love an update in the future with how it goes but congratulations on the engagement congratulations on pursuing your phd and all that fun stuff what are you getting your phd in psychology awesome cool yeah i'm a counselor right now so yeah oh very cool and i yeah what what do you what like what's your end goal like what's your dream your dream job i would like to so i'm writing my dissertation actually on solo travel and how um

just like the personal

um

i can't even think now, but the outcomes of solo travel and how it changes like your self-efficacy and things like that, the transformations.

So I'd love to someday incorporate that with like therapy and counseling and do some type of like travel therapy.

Oh, very cool.

Give me, give me the 60 second like reason why you think it's what are the benefits of it?

Of solo travel in general or travel in general?

Sure, yeah, what you're writing your dissertation on, like in terms from a psychology.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

So basically when you when you solo travel, in your normal day-to-day life, you're in social contacts that help you to just kind of confirm the beliefs that you already have, right?

You're not really challenged, you're kind of just like repeating the pattern.

So when you travel, you're put in new contexts, you're experiencing new things, which is what causes self-efficacy to grow is being challenged and then successful in those challenges, but you're also removing that social barrier that

prevents those new beliefs from forming and challenging the beliefs that were already there.

So in a solo context, when you're traveling with others, you still have that social component where you're still kind of just like

re

like articulating the same beliefs.

So solo, you come back, you're able to kind of challenge those beliefs.

And there's a theory, it's called transformative learning theory.

And it's when you have this kind of groundbreaking discovery, then you're able to go through and kind of process what you believe and why you believe that.

But I think travel is an outlet to do that.

Very cool.

Thank you for explaining that.

It makes a lot of sense.

Awesome.

Well, thank you for calling in.

Please keep us updated and congratulations and all the other amazing things going on in your life.

And sorry you're going through this, but

you seem to be approaching it in a very healthy way.

So I think you will feel good about that in the long run.

Thank you.

I appreciate that.

All right.

Take care.

Nice to meet you.

Thanks.

Thanks.

And go Packers.

Yeah, there we go.

Hell yeah.

Bye.

Bye-bye.

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How's it going?

It's good.

How are you?

Good.

What's your name?

Anya, and I'm 30 years old.

How can I help Anya?

I've known my boyfriend for three years now, officially as of two days ago.

And we dated a little bit in the past.

He moved away.

And then as soon as he moved back about a year ago, we have been in.

a super serious, like very emotional, beautiful relationship.

And everything was going really smoothly.

And then one, one night we were out and he kind of, he said that he thought I was like looking at other people.

And I was like, I don't even know how you could think that.

Like, I think I'm just kind of, we're just out together.

And then through time, like a couple of other times that things like that came up, he mentioned how upset he was and how he feels super confused and I guess upset by the fact that I have a male roommate.

And that leads him to believe that he thinks that there's something strange going on and that on like bad days when he's like having a rough day or something, his mind starts to spin and he thinks that like something is going on between me and this other person and thinks that it's like he doesn't understand how I don't like see that it's a problem.

to have a male roommate who is straight.

Anytime I mention him, he'll get upset about it.

Like when I even mention like conversations that I have that are super casual and it's caused so many like fights and rifts in our relationship tell me about this roommate i used to live with him and his ex who is a hometown friend of mine lived together for three years now and um because i'm not from where i live now we both are from the same place um so she's one of the few people i knew when i moved here so we all lived together and At one point, they had like kind of a crazy breakup.

She was able to move out and then him and i stayed living together in the lease because we had a lease together and at that point we both were single and we were like we just get along so well that like it'll be so easy to just split rent move somewhere else together nothing ever like anything more than platonic sibling like relationship and so we just continued to live together and to make things easier, not have to split up all the furniture, everything like that.

Anyway, that's, that's our story.

Nothing more, nothing less.

All right.

Well, listen, I mean, I can, I can, I already give you my opinion.

You can be doing nothing wrong, and it can still be something that justifiably bothers someone you care about.

You know, two things can be true.

Doesn't matter how platonic or how much you don't want to have sex with your roommate or how much you see him like a brother.

He's not your brother.

And the fact that he does live with you sounds like this boyfriend of yours, it's a serious relationship.

I'm guessing maybe you guys have talked about the future together, et cetera, et cetera.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

Moving in is a big step in any relationship, right?

And the reality is, is that like this roommate of yours, who is a straight man, has connects with you in ways that your boyfriend probably aspires to, you know, simply just because of the quality time and your safe place.

Your home is your roommate's safe place, you know?

And, you know, when I met Natalie, I, I mean, I was single for years.

I had tons of women friends that were platonic, truly platonic friends.

Um, but when I met Natalie, you know, it became a, it quickly became a relationship that, you know, I was invested in.

It quickly became a relationship that I saw a potential future in.

And that's where my energy started going, you know, and that's the relationship I started prioritizing.

So those platonic relationships went away in a way.

Fade a little bit of it.

Yeah.

A lot of it, you know, as I say, you know, on every call on some way, you know, it's like, it's, it's, where is your energy going?

And where your energy goes is, is what you prioritize in a way, you know?

And sometimes, yeah, it's towards your roommate sometimes, not because maybe you even choose to, but because you live with him and he's there, you know?

Yeah.

And so there are times that your roommate gets to check in with you

in ways that your boyfriend probably would like to.

How is your day?

What's going on?

He can see, you know, your roommate might see you pace around the house and look stressed in a way that like he could say, hey, is

anything wrong?

Is everything okay?

You know, and things like that.

That's a boyfriend's job, you know?

That's certainly a job he wants to have.

And so, yeah,

if I'm your boyfriend, it would probably, it would bother me.

You know, it would just, it just would.

you know and not because you're necessarily doing anything wrong but

you know and there's always the element of not all cases, but most, but when it comes to a man and woman being platonic friends that are both straight, usually that friendship started with one of those people being at least somewhat romantically interested.

Now, again, you met this guy through another woman, and I understand.

So maybe this is one of the few exceptions to that rule.

I don't know.

But regardless, like nine times out of 10, Even when it was, even when you meet someone, they're like, oh, this is my friend Jenny.

And like, I see see her like a sister.

And

it's two people who constantly are there for each other and tell dating stories.

Usually someone initially, there was an attraction and then they just got friend zoned and they accepted the friend zone.

And then maybe they learned about this person.

They once wanted to take their clothes off and got the ick and realized, yeah, I can't believe I wanted to have sex with you 10 years ago because I do see you as my brother now.

But they're what, you know, he's not your brother.

You know, he's not your brother.

If the world came to an end,

so to speak, or you guys got stuck on an island for a long period of time, eventually you would have sex with this roommate, you know, you would.

And if it was your brother, you wouldn't, unless you were fucking creepy or weird, you know, and it's like that's just the nature of the relationship.

And there is no changing that or no denying that.

So I honestly think if you are serious about this relationship that you're in, I think I would go out of your way to try to change your living situation.

I appreciate that because I did kind of, I came on because I was like, you know, in my head, I'm like, I can't even see this at all.

Like, I can't even see how you see this.

Like, cause in my head, I'm like, I understand how beyond platonic it is.

Like, there, at least for me, and I would say for him, there has never even been a moment of that.

Like what you're describing.

Like, I don't give a one out of 10.

Yeah.

Right.

Even if that's true, again, he still gets to this roommate gets to connect with you in ways your boyfriend would rather have it be him.

Right.

So then I guess this brings me to my other thing.

So it's like, in my head, it's like, I'm like, oh, maybe, because sometimes I do have conversations with my roommate and it feels like, oh my gosh, like it's nice because it's an objective opinion.

Like he barely cares.

Like, but he gives it to me, you know, and so I'm in my head like, well, sometimes these conversations and like, in my head, I'm like, he's probably better than my boyfriend at like, you know, at helping me out with something but do you think that it's like because he's there well one I can tell you that like again while I completely understand what you're saying and it makes a ton of sense if your boyfriend heard you say that it would hurt him yeah definitely oh my god yeah it would hurt any man it would you know you know what you should ask your roommate how he would feel like how would he feel yeah that's true yeah if he was really objective he would say exactly what i'm saying yeah and if he actually doesn't say what you're saying then maybe he doesn't think of you as much of a friend.

Oh, okay.

Or he just selfishly, like, you know, he likes his living situation, doesn't want to fuck it up, doesn't want to pay more money, you know, and, and, and, you know, so there's one of three options.

He'll either tell you the truth, he'll agree with me, or there's something going on that he's not admitting to, either to himself, or probably most likely, he's going to convince himself of a reason because it benefits him.

Okay, that makes sense.

That would just be more an experiment.

I don't think you need to ask your roommate his advice because he's not objective in this in this scenario because it does affect him.

If you're serious about this relationship, your boyfriend has every right to feel how he feels.

He doesn't have to see it the way you see it.

He doesn't have, it's not about him not trusting you.

Okay.

Put yourself in his shoes.

Okay.

So when I've done that, I guess in my head, and maybe I'm just completely blind, but in my head, I'm like, I don't think if you had the same situation as we do and how platonic it is and how like.

Yeah, but I don't think you're really being honest with yourself.

You're not, you're not thinking of it.

Maybe I'm not.

All right.

Well, let's, let's, you know, how would you feel about it if you knew this woman roommate of his would be someone he would go to for emotional support over you constantly?

You know, how would you feel if like you go home to your bedroom and then they are talking in the living

in their living room till two in the morning, having a conversation about maybe you sometimes, you know, how he's feeling about the relationship and getting advice from this woman that, like, you know, you're not like friends with, maybe you don't really hate.

How would that make you feel?

I don't know if I'm just being stubborn, but in my head, I'm like, if that made our relationship better, like if you were like getting emotional advice from her and figuring things out in your life that made her.

Yeah, you keep saying

you're assuming it makes it better, right?

In this scenario, you have to assume that your initial reaction is discomfort.

When you're quote unquote putting yourself in your boyfriend's shoes, you're inserting your reality into your boyfriend's shoes from your perspective.

So

when you play out this scenario in your head and you give your boyfriend this fake straight woman roommate, you see her the same way you see your male roommate.

And then you're like, oh, there's absolutely nothing to worry about.

And every conversation I have with my male roommate is actually benefiting my relationship with my boyfriend.

He just doesn't appreciate or see that, et cetera, et cetera.

And you're inserting all those variables into that narrative, which is why you come to the conclusion that you have.

But instead of all that, you really have to put yourself in your boyfriend's shoes, which is there's this general discomfort because

he isn't there knowing what you guys are talking about.

He doesn't have the security or trust that like this guy has his best interest in mind.

When you compare it, you have to compare it knowing nothing and just knowing that like it's kind of weird for my boyfriend to have

a roommate that like,

you know, what if she wants to walk around the house naked?

You know, it's her house.

It's her, you know, what if she's just one of those people who's just like comfortable with her body and titties out and just like, she's just like, I don't know, like, I don't give a shit.

He's like, I don't care.

I'm not going to fuck him.

How would that make you feel?

Like, you know what I'm saying?

Like, you really?

You would just be like

chill?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So when you put yourself in his shoes, you're filling in all the potential unknowns with all the knowns that you are aware of in the dynamic of your roommate.

Does that make sense?

Right.

Yes, it does.

And what bothers your boyfriend is all the unknowns that he just, you know, like, okay.

And, and if your situation truly is the exception to the rule, great, good for you, but most things aren't, right?

And so your boyfriend has to just assume that despite a million other scenarios that he's been aware of or like this happened and some shit happened and someone cheated and da-da-da, but no, my girlfriend has the one male roommate who's not a creep, you know, like, you know, it's just like, come on.

You're expecting him to like have an unreasonable amount of like trust and security in a situation that like he shouldn't be asked to have to do that.

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

He has said that a lot too.

You're not doing anything wrong, but it's like, it's like, you know, it'd be no different than saying, you know, like you, you could have met your boyfriend and you could say, like, hey, I got this crazy job that like takes me out of the country for six months and I'm offline.

And then your boyfriend could be like, all right, well, I think I can make that work.

And, you know, like, yeah, it's possible.

Like, yeah, you could ask your boyfriend to be okay with this, but like you leaving for six months out of the year being offline would clearly put a stress on your relationship.

And this is adding stress to your relationship.

And

you're expecting your boyfriend to like not feel a certain way.

And he's having a very normal reaction to a situation you have put him in.

And you are expecting him to ignore his intuition, his feelings, and just like give you a level of trust that like, yeah, I guess it would be great.

It would be great, you know, if your boyfriend.

Let's flip the switch, like was living across the country as like a teacher surrounded by women.

Like, yeah, I I guess you could definitely choose to trust him and maybe you could trust him, but like,

as a human being, you'd be like, I don't know what this motherfucker's doing constantly.

And I guess I'm just assuming he's just like always good.

And I, you know, I'm assuming that anytime he's put in a vulnerable situation where maybe a woman approaches him and hits on him, that he's always just like, oh, always doing the right thing, always.

Right.

Eventually, like, we are humans, right?

You know, what's the saying?

Nothing good happens after midnight.

You know,

that saying is the way it is because, like, after midnight, usually the environment that people are in are tempting them, are putting them in compromising situations.

It's a lot easier for an addict to stay clean when they're not surrounding themselves with people doing drugs and alcohol and things like that because humans eventually just have a breaking point.

And I'm giving you extreme examples, but like again, like the environment you're in is an environment from your boyfriend's perspective.

Is this like, why are you putting yourself in an environment that just ultimately like

saves you a little bit of money and is just was convenient when you were single?

But like, if you want to be in a relationship where we talk about our future and we talk about getting engaged and we talk about spending a life together, why the fuck are you trying to make this situation work?

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is because right now it is the reason I don't.

And I guess like, it's kind of a jump to be like, okay, let me just move out like right now in the middle of like me.

You know, what if we don't work out and this does, I don't know.

How long have you been dating this guy?

Under a year now.

okay where does he live he lives like 10 minutes away do you spend a lot of nights at his house uh i wouldn't say a lot i work late and he gets up early so i don't i would say probably three nights of the week probably

well listen again you're right i mean like despite everything i just said i mean like practically speaking It might be challenging for you to like break a lease or whatever.

But like my point is, well, step one is to stop debating your boyfriend that he shouldn't be bothered by this or that he has nothing to worry about.

Step one is like being like, you know what?

I've talked to some people and you're right.

Honestly, I'm realizing that if I, if the roles were reversed, it would bother me more than I, I, I honestly don't see it, but I think I'm very biased because I, you know, like there really is nothing going on there.

But even so, like, I get it.

I get it that like I'm being a little stubborn by at least not like recognizing that like, if I were in your shoes, I understand why there's some discomfort there.

It's like step one is just like not making him feel like he has to convince you why he's upset.

So that will get you a long way.

Step two is being like, all right, well, listen, like, you know, how much is left in your lease?

You know, six months, 12 months, 30 months.

It's not even about breaking the lease.

It's more about like

where are we going, where I like live, I guess, if that makes sense.

Well, you could say, listen, like, I'm on a month to month, but like, I hear you.

I appreciate you, yada, yada.

Um,

you know, you have been only dating this guy for less than a year.

I don't know.

I mean, but step one is

acknowledging that he has the right to be upset.

And then you could be like, listen, that all being said, like, this isn't, I do like my place.

It is a good living situation.

You definitely don't have anything to worry about.

Like, I am in a month a month, and like, I'm down to spend more time at your place.

How can I make you feel

in the short term?

How can I make you feel more comfortable with this situation?

I mean, like, I'm down to like reconsider my living situation, but like you know that feel you know this is where your boyfriend needs to empathize with you a little bit it's just like well i don't know if we're ready to move in with each other it feels kind of heavy to

well i while i understand why you're upset why this is a concern of yours or why this is you feel the way you do it feels like a lot to change my living situation for our relationship when like we're we're still relatively new in this relationship right you know it's a step below moving in with started like three months ago like three months into it so like even

what started three months like like the bringing up the roommate thing but it started like only a couple months in which was even more challenging but that i mean that's i don't think i think but like how long you've been dating matters right you've been dating less than a year you don't know if you know you you're excited about this guy you see the potential but four months from now you guys could be broken up regardless of this room, the living situation.

I don't know, like, and so, like, you're going to move out, and then all of a sudden, like, you guys could break up, and you're like, well, that sucks because I had a good thing, you know?

Yeah.

That being said, I will say, like, as a, as a heterosexual woman who dates men, like, I don't think, and no one's going to be okay with this.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

Um,

yeah, clearly.

So, honestly, I, I would think of it less about doing this for your boyfriend, your current boyfriend.

And

I would look.

So step one, acknowledging your boyfriend's frustration.

He's not crazy for feeling the way he feels.

Two, being like, well,

how can I make you short of like moving out tomorrow?

How can I make you feel more comfortable?

I mean, I'm down to spend more time at your place.

I don't want to invite myself.

You're certainly welcome to come over and spend more time here.

I acknowledge what you're saying.

I'm sorry.

It took me so long to see it, but

I do want to make you feel more comfortable.

So I think that'll go a long way.

It should go a long way.

And then kind of just communicate with your boyfriend from there.

So like, I'm going to start looking for a new situation, but like, I don't want to rush into that.

This is, by all accounts,

an affordable, good situation that I have, which I understand

isn't working for me or us long term.

So

I do want to start looking at changing that situation, but I don't want to like

make a rash decision that is costly for me and get myself and move in with someone I hate.

But I think once you acknowledge it with your boyfriend, then maybe you guys can figure something out together.

I don't know.

Like, but step one is just not right now.

You're just debating with him whether he should feel the way he does or not.

And you're just like, I don't see why you should feel this way because you have nothing to worry about.

It's just like, okay, I guess.

Like, thanks for telling me how I should feel.

Well, yeah.

And then when he's gotten mad, then I'm like, well, damn, are you just like, are you going to be this like mean, like mad person?

You know, so, but I wasn't, I don't think I have been at all thinking about how he feels.

Yeah, he's just getting frustrated because he's just like, I, I don't know how else to articulate this.

And you're just telling me I'm crazy for feeling the way I'm feeling.

Yeah.

Okay.

He kind of feels a little gaslit in a way.

Oh, I bet he does.

Now I'm seeing it.

And I guess even you were saying, like, I guess a lot of platonic relationships really do afford to like kind of fall off and stuff like that.

Yeah.

I mean, it's if you're in a relationship worth your time, your, your platonic friendships with the opposite sex should

fall off.

Okay.

And if they don't, there's, there's a reason why that would make me uncomfortable being in that relationship.

Relationships take energy.

They take priority.

Like, that's the point of being in a relationship because you found someone who wants to prioritize you in ways that most people don't.

You know, you invest in each other, you grow with each other, you try to become one in a way.

You know,

you know, and he is feeling like you're doing that with another man, even if it is as friends.

You know, I stopped having lunch dates with my girlfriends when I got a girlfriend.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I wasn't like, hey, I'm going to lunch with Aaron.

She'd be like, well, why aren't we going to lunch?

Yeah.

Well, mine's the job, like my job too.

And that, like, I know that that has to switch because I have like the most social job in the world.

And it does

help.

I know that it does.

I work at Trader Joe's.

So I'm like, I, no, I'm just so, it's so social.

And all my friends work there.

Like, I have just like, so it's all the time I'm like around people and like all the platonic friends, everything.

Well, that's, he needs to be like, it's one thing to work with a bunch of men and be friendly with them and having guy friends.

You're allowed to have guy friends at work and you're allowed to be in groups with men.

But there's the, you know, when I was single, I would go to movies with my women friends.

I'd go to dinner with my women friends.

I would hang out their house and talk into the night.

And again, just as friends, just like I was with my guy friends, but like, I didn't have a girlfriend to like worry about.

And, you know, I didn't have a girlfriend whose feelings I needed to consider, you know.

And when I got a girlfriend, that all changed.

I didn't like, I wasn't getting coffee with my girlfriends to chat and catch up, you know.

That time I used to, like, invest in my relationship and and connect with my girlfriend and spend time with my girlfriend.

And if I wanted to, like, have a bunch of platonic friends with women, then it was more like, then I shouldn't want a girlfriend.

That's fair.

Relationships take work and they take sacrifice and compromise.

And, like, you know.

Yeah.

You know, or you can be a s you know, a single independent woman with a bunch of friends that are men and women and and,

you know, just carry on like that.

And do what you want and go where you want.

But

being in a relationship

does require some level of giving up some level of independence and freedom for the sake of the connection of the relationship.

Okay.

No, that's good.

I don't think I've been told that and I needed to be told that.

Glad I could help.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's, it's, you know, like, yeah, you could be like, oh, you shouldn't have to give up anything for a man.

It's like, you're not doing it for a man, you know, again, regardless of what happens with this guy, you know, I don't, most men that you date are going to have a problem with you having this roommate.

It's, it's human nature.

That's fair.

You know, and honestly, they should be a little uncomfortable about it, you know, because like otherwise you have a boyfriend who really doesn't give a fuck what you're up to and what you're doing and honestly isn't focused on having a connection with you.

But the things that bother your boyfriend about this have to do with connecting with you emotionally, you know, and the access this roommate has that he doesn't and he desires to have with you, I would think it'd be something that you're glad that your boyfriend desires.

Yeah.

You know, if he just thought of you as an object to have sex with, then he wouldn't give a fuck that you get to connect with this man emotionally late at night and things like that.

And he's like, I don't know, I'm getting laid.

Who gives a fuck?

Yeah, this is why I wanted the male perspective because all my girlfriends, it's always just like, oh, no, like.

He should not like care about that.

You've told him so many times how he can be secure about it.

So thank you.

I do see that.

yeah, but it's yeah, I mean, you could definitely use this an opportunity to test your man's security.

Natalie could say, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm moving for six months and you can trust me, so you shouldn't have a problem with it.

And I guess I could choose to be like, I guess, okay, you know, like at some point, you know, you have to decide what you want to do for the relationship.

Cool?

Okay.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, glad I could help.

Good luck.

Thank you.

All right.

Thank you so much.

All right.

Bye-bye.

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How's it going?

Hi, Nick.

I'm doing well.

How are you?

Good.

What's your name?

My name is Emily.

I am 38 years old, and I'm wondering if I should donate.

some frozen embryos or keep them frozen.

Okay, why are you considering donating them?

I think my husband and and I are done having kids.

We had to do multiple rounds of IVF to have kids to begin with.

We had my daughter and then we had to do more rounds.

And now we have two embryos remaining.

I think we're done having kids for a few reasons, but then every time we try to sign papers to donate them, we just can't follow through.

It's hard.

Is there an expiration date?

on these embryos?

No, and that's a question that I have out to our doctor too.

So they've been frozen since 2021.

You just have to pay yearly to keep them frozen.

So there's a cost.

But I don't know if the longer they're frozen, if the chances of success in transferring them goes down.

That's a question I don't know.

Gotcha.

And then the donating part, I'm guessing, is just you feeling like you're doing something good or maybe helping

other people who hope to have kids or and can't.

That's certainly an aspect of it.

Another part is these are like graded embryos.

I know they're genetically tested.

They are healthy embryos ready to go.

And so from my perspective, I at least need to give them a shot at life, right?

Like, it's really hard for me to keep these two potential beings frozen when they could have a very happy and healthy life.

I mean, that's just a perspective, you know, and that's a very generous perspective you have.

But I mean, I'm not a doctor or a biologist, but I mean, your body is full of

embryo, you know, right?

I don't know, like, I have sperm inside me, you know, that's potentially gives life.

Yeah.

Have you considered the emotional

um aspect to feeling like there is a child out there in this world that is biologically connected to you that you will have no rights or access to?

Yeah, absolutely, and that's why we have a hard time signing things through, right?

Because, on the one hand, you know, that's your child, it is mine, and it is my husband's biological child.

And to not have a say in how they're raised or who they are or even know them is just unfathomable.

I can't imagine.

But, but weighing that against like not even giving them a shot at life,

that's a decision that I have a hard time making.

And we've considered, you know, do we donate them to people we know who are struggling?

But I think that that would even be harder.

You know, this is a moral question that I don't know how helpful I can be, you know, like

snap decision.

If I were in your shoes, I probably wouldn't.

You wouldn't donate them?

Yeah.

I mean, I probably, I empathize with your struggle to donate them.

I also like, don't know what it's like.

Clearly, you have a connection with these embryos in a way.

And, you know, being a new father myself, you know, it was evident to me Natalie's ability to connect with our daughter River as soon as she found out she was born, also connect with our, our two

unborn children who she miscarried.

So I imagine that you also have a connection with these embryos in ways that I I can't, you know, to me, I just hear embryos and I'm thinking you got some, you know, sperm.

And so I empathize with the connection I'm assuming you have, which when you talk about them is already kind of life, like, you know,

as life that deserves to have a chance at living.

I recognize that, but at the same time, I'm not connected to that feeling that you're having.

I can just recognize that there is a feeling that I can't relate to, you know?

Yeah, I understand that.

And maybe I can give a little bit more context to like the process of IOVF.

so from my perspective when i started i had three doctors tell me we're not going to take you on you're never going to get pregnant and the reason for that is doctors have to report every trial every round they do they have to report whether or not it's successful and this is publicly available information so a lot of doctors just wouldn't touch me the doctor we went with said that every time i did i would have a 10 chance okay so it took us a long time my condition is i just don't have a lot of eggs and the ones i do have aren't good quality.

So by the time we got them, then it's like you retrieve eggs and, you know, some people get 30.

It's not uncommon for women to get 30.

I would get one to seven every time.

And then they say like 60 to 70% of those actually fertilize with sperm, actually accept the sperm.

And then 50% of those continue to develop appropriately.

And then 50% of those make it to the stage that our now two frozen embryos are.

So yes, I have a very deep connection to them because they were such a long shot.

They feel like miracles.

Yeah.

They feel like miracles.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I get it.

I get it.

Yeah.

It feels like a waste of a miracle.

It does.

Yeah.

And then, you know, like with IVF now, you can genetically test them.

And so I know that they're healthy.

And I also know that they're boys, right?

And so that even adds another level of connection to them.

So they're already insemined.

They're already inseminated.

They're like, how does.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah.

They are fully there.

And, you know, I look at my kids now and I, especially my son, because he was one of three healthy embryos.

And I look at him and I'm like, how am I so lucky that the doctor chose you for me to have?

Why, just you know if you don't mind me asking why why have you and your husband decided to not try to do it on your own um a few reasons one and probably the least important is my age right i'm 38 so it doesn't bother me that much but that's pretty old to have kids sure secondly i did have complications after both initial pregnancies um that required me to be hospitalized and have surgery for one and then Lastly, and I think most importantly, right now, I don't know that our marriage could handle another baby.

You know, obviously that could and hopefully will change, but then I'm even older.

When you, and again, don't

don't need to answer, but like, what part concerns you about your marriage, having more kids?

Like, it's more expensive in general, and there's more pressure, your health, and, and how that affects, et cetera, et cetera.

Like, is it more like, you know, your body goes through so much when you have kids that I know it, you know, when Nali was pregnant, it's it's it changes the dynamic of your relationship it just does and like you you try to adjust but like it's you know

it's different you know and different isn't always bad but different is something you takes energy to adjust to is that i mean are you something like that yeah i think it's very similar to that i think a large part of it right now is um we both have very stressful jobs i work from home though for mine and he is in office and so a lot of extra stuff falls on me you know like laundry cleaning all of that stuff falls on me because I am here.

And I think one of our struggles right now is it's just being seen for all that I am picking up and doing and really keeping this household together.

Sometimes it doesn't feel acknowledged.

And I think that's a really big battle right now, at least.

And I think having another kid in the mix would only make that worse.

What's your husband's perspective on

that?

I'm sure you've communicated that.

I mean, he agrees.

You know, he thinks that it would be great to have a household of kids, right?

No, I just mean, what's your perspective on the fact that you feel a little less appreciated than you would like to?

I ask is because when you know, I think, you know, I don't know, marriages are hard.

And I think when it comes to all relationships,

I think it's very common, especially married couples, to have their both their own versions in reasons why they think they're not as appreciated as they'd like to be.

Especially when it's like two people in a relationship who want to do their part, you know,

and are doing their version of their part, you know, because there are certainly like couples where you just have one deadbeat and one person

doing all of it.

But I'm curious, I'm guessing you've communicated this frustration to your husband, and I'm guessing he has responded with a different version.

Yeah.

And he is certainly not a deadbeat.

He's far from it.

But, you know, he very much says, I'm trying.

And it's the typical male female where his version of trying to show me is to take stuff off my plate and do it.

Right.

And so like he tries to do that.

And I'm, I'm more of the perspective, I can do it.

I just want to know that you see I'm doing it.

You know, so it's not an insurmountable hurdle by any means.

And what is seeing how you do it look like for you?

Verbalizing it, you know, thanking me for taking the kids to endless doctor's appointments or for just doing things around the house okay um

how often weekly

like i know this sounds kind of yeah that i think the challenge i don't know you know the challenge i've just found and i only have a year into a marriage i just found that like i think when you're on the receiving end of feeling like man i just could love a pat on the back here you know i'd love a

an add-taboy but i guess put it this way there are times i i know i do a lot i know natalie does a lot i know natalie knows i do a lot, you know, but there are times where I'm, you know, I guess I can feel a little like, you know, you first start dating, right?

And then, you know, you're, I'm sure you, maybe it was your husband at some point.

You first started dating and you're like, I'm thirsty.

And he's like, let me go get you a glass of water.

And you're like, oh my God, that was so sweet.

I'm like, oh my God, like, wow.

Like,

give me the carter.

And, you know, and then, you know, not too long later, you're like, I'm thirsty.

And you expected him to get you a glass of water, you know?

And often the things we do early in a relationship that we do, especially if you're an act of service person, you know, if you show love through your acts of service, those quickly start feeling like, when did my act of love turn into my job?

But when you're on the other side of it, you're like, do I have to thank you every time?

Like, like ever,

like, I guess, sure.

I mean, I will.

I am grateful, but like, no, for sure.

Yeah.

Thank you once again for doing the laundry.

Thank you for picking up the kids.

Thank you for making the lunches for the kids, you know.

On the flip side, you know, like, I mean, and I'm sure you have.

I'm sure you have thanked him for his hard work at work or whatever, but I'm guessing you also don't do it every day.

You know, I'm guessing there's a part that you take the shit he does every day is like, I don't know, like, it's what you do, man.

Like, you, it's your job, you know, you know, as opposed to him, you know, and you get what I'm saying?

And I think married couples have their own version of like, I just would like to know.

I just,

I would do it anyways, but I just want, I do want to feel like this isn't my job.

And I do want to feel like this is an act of love.

And I think often it's very easy for both parties to feel that while not recognizing what the other, you know, kind of is asking, if, if I'm, if that's making sense.

Yep.

You're exactly right.

Yeah.

You're exactly right.

So how do you guys find that middle ground?

That's what we're working on.

I don't know.

I don't know.

I'm trying to get better at vocalizing like when I need acknowledgement, you know, so like this weekend, for example, both kids were just screaming for me in the car, only one in me.

And I just looked at him and I was like, I need your help right now.

Like, can you step in and help me?

I'm trying to get better at that and then thanking him when that happens.

And I think he is getting much better at thanking me.

But right now, it still feels forced and formal and just awkward.

That's what I'm kind of saying.

It's just like that, because

it is, you know, it is.

It is forced.

It literally is

forced.

And it's like, I do think there's a part on both parties to just, to know it's an act of love in a way.

I don't know.

I don't even have the answer because I think every couple, I think Natalie and I experience that sometimes, where it's just like, we both want to feel appreciated and we both have different reasons and different times in which,

you know, it's more like, I think it's less about feeling appreciated and more about like not feeling like you're.

being taken for granted.

Absolutely.

You know?

Yes, that's exactly right.

And but when you add kids in the mix, that feeling of being taken for granted seems to intensify.

I recognize, especially now, like Rivers bond with Natalie is amazing and awesome.

And I know Natalie loves it and it's great, but it also is like River constantly calling for Natalie constantly.

And it's just like that can get training.

And that is an aspect that I think,

you know, I have to get better at recognizing that too.

Because like, at first, I'm just like, you're, you know, the part of of me is kind of envious of that bond that she has with Natalie in a way.

It's like, wow, like, he never calls for me like that.

You know, and so it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a challenge because you both have to on some level, if you, you know, to, even if it feels forced, to know that he is

taking the time because he knows it's important to you.

And his willingness to thank you, even if you have to, even if it feels forced and awkward, is to say, I'm just recognizing that you are doing something.

Your day-to-day is so hectic, and you guys are just getting, you know, not like, you know, but like every day, you know, even for me and Natalie, we're very two privileged people right now.

But our lives are no less hectic.

I mean, every day, you know, I don't, like last night, I definitely was, you know, Natalie's like, can you help me make the bed?

You know, and I'm thinking, all right, sure, totally.

Let's go.

And I'm thinking, I have not, like, I don't, I wake up at 6:30, you know, 15, I get River out of bed i play with river before i have to go to work and i don't and and then i don't i don't get to like rest my eyes until 10 30 at night when i go to bed like that's my life yeah and i love my life and it's an amazing life and i feel very lucky to have my life and it's crazy but like i had a lot more free time before I have to ask permission to work out.

Not, I mean, I don't have to ask permission, but I, you know, I'm like, hey, is it okay if I go for a run?

Because I don't want to like leave Natalie and abandon, you know, because I'm just making, making,

I'm, you know, like, you know, and she

doesn't even have time to sneak out and go for, you know, do her, you know, self-care or time.

It's, you know, so it's a lot.

Yeah.

And so for me, it's just like, if we both have these feelings, right?

Because we both kind of feel like we're falling short.

We are in couples therapy and that's what we've kind of identified is we both feel like we're falling short in terms of being enough for each other right now, just because it is so chaotic to have two toddlers.

And I don't know, knowing that we both have that that deep underlying feeling the thought of adding one or two more kids to the mix just terrifies me like i love my children i wouldn't trade them for the world obviously but at the same time i don't want i don't want to do irreparable damage where there's already a lot of hurt it makes sense well i mean it's for the reason you first called in i mean it seems a little hasty i think there's a reason why you and your husband are are having a hard time

signing these documents to release these embryos

to someone else.

And I i think you should follow your intuition for the time being that would be my thing i would hate for you guys six months later to regret doing that and then the resentment that both of you could feel like wondering did you guys whose fault was it was it more you who encouraged the other person to sign the document or was it him who who encouraged you you know and you guys could have revisionist history about that time and then someone could resent the other person you both could resent each other i you know i understand all the reasons why you want want to um pay homage to these miracle embryos and not waste it but like if we're worried about potential stresses we could put on your marriage i i feel like right now is not the time to do that and i would channel this energy that you're you're investing in what to do with these embryos into like you know this this your marriage and and you guys figuring that out but like you you know you you mentioned guys in couple stereopa you you both recognize there's a lot of hurt on both sides.

But I, I guess, on some level, there is a little bit of both of you, I'm guessing, having to get over yourselves a little bit, a little bit, a little bit, you know?

Um,

you know, because I do know that when there are times where I might feel a little underappreciated,

right or wrong, but I, there, I know that there's, I could say that, and Nali's initial response will be to

it'll it'll it won't trigger her to say, you're right.

You know, it'll, it'll trigger her to recognize how she's not feeling appreciated.

And that's kind of a product of a marriage.

So there is a part of us for both to just trust that like this person is here.

This person is showing up.

This person is doing their part.

Maybe not perfectly, maybe they could do more.

But they, this is this, this whole thing of, you know, put yourself in your shoes, right you do what you do

for your marriage for your husband for yourself sure but honestly you probably feel like a lot of what you do isn't for you know it's like for everyone else but you i bet your husband feels exactly the same you know yes

so so

you both have to give each other the grace that you are doing thing you know you if you both feel like most of your energy is to take care of everyone but yourself then you both have to give the other person a grace to recognize that.

You know,

whether it happens every week is in the form of a verbal thank you, you know, because maybe your love language is words of affirmation, you know, I'm guessing, and it's nice to hear it from time to time.

And I'm not saying he can't do a better job of vocalizing that, but there is an element that you both have to recognize that like he makes sacrifices just like I make sacrifices.

And I just, I have to see those sacrifices as an act of love rather than telling myself the only way I can receive that act of love is through hearing it at a time, which I deem appropriate.

You're right.

And you actually said this earlier.

My, my love language is actually acts of service, but it's very similar to what you said, where it's like, it became his job, right?

It became an expectation.

It no longer became a way of him showing love.

And so you're absolutely right.

And I can tell you that as someone who likes to to show love through access service, when it's, when it becomes my job, it's no longer love.

It's just something I have to fucking do.

And it's a fine line.

So,

I mean, what, you know, talk, you're talking about being forced or whatever, but I think the situation you described, maybe you guys, you know, every,

I don't know if you guys do date nights, if you have time for it.

And when couples like schedule dates nights, sometimes it's for sex, some romance or just that connection.

But maybe for you guys, it could just be taking five minutes to just recognize all you have done for each other, even if it is quote unquote forced.

It's just be like, you know, hey, like, look, can we just take a moment and just recognize what we've done for each other and kind of just acknowledge our mutual appreciation and then give each other the recognition they deserve to say, I'm really proud of you and you're working really hard.

It's just like, I think in marriages, like, listen, like, we always focus on the negative, right?

You're constantly, I'm sure, every day being like, there's,

why can he do this?

Or he could, oh, he did this.

Like an eye roll here, a sigh there.

And he's doing the exact same thing to you, right?

You know, to himself.

But like, how often are both of you being like, he did this?

He, wow, he's at him right now.

He's at work and he's just,

who knows what he's doing for us right now.

And thank you, you know?

And it's like, we don't do that often, you know?

I think there's a million things every day that we could choose to compliment our partners, but we're so focused on what we're not getting or not receiving and what we're not doing and yada, yada, yada.

And I think every person in a relationship feels like they get criticized 10 times more than they get complimented.

And I think

if couples are meant to carve out time for romance and intimacy and things like that, maybe you guys can carve out time to show that gratitude to each other and just say, you know, if I haven't said it enough, I do want you to know I'm really proud of you and I'm grateful for you and you do a lot.

And then hopefully, you know, the other person's like, and also, yes, like you do do a lot and I am grateful.

And

I'm so glad

I have you by my side.

And, you know,

and not, and it's not the time for if you could do more, you know, and I, I don't know.

And then just appreciate that rather than saying, well, I wish we didn't have to carve out time to do that.

You know, it's just like, you can,

at some point, you guys both have to try to see the good rather than see the bad.

And right now, it's a lot of like what you, you would, as individuals, what you guys feel like you're not getting.

I like that idea a lot.

You know, it's like this week, we're in one of our pits where it's, he's not doing this, she's not doing this kind of thing.

And then yesterday it started to get a little bit better.

And then something happens with the kids and it was all in me again.

And we kind of just digressed right back to it, you know?

So I like that idea.

Yeah.

It sounds like you're both doing your best.

You're just having a hard time showing it to each other.

And I think there has to be a little bit of level of grace

you guys give each other and trust that you're both doing your best as imperfect as it might be.

It's not from a lack of effort.

It's not from a lack of trying or giving a shit.

It's just like you guys have chosen a lifestyle that's hard.

It comes with a lot of rewards and blessings and purposes in life.

You know, it's just like before I had, you know, after I had my kid, it was like, what was really the point of everything?

Everything else just feeled stupid.

You know, like, what was the point?

I was just like, I just, I didn't like, literally, what was the point?

Now I have way more purpose.

That purpose is a lot of fucking work.

And that purpose, like, doesn't allow me to be selfish or think about what I want to do.

And I have to like, all that stuff, you know?

And so you guys are not giving each other.

enough grace and your individual selves are are and I guess a little bit of ego is

wanting a little bit of that recognition because of how hard it is, you know?

Yeah, no, I think you're exactly right.

Thank you.

That's really good perspective.

And what triggered all this is a friend actually approached us to see if we would be willing to donate to her.

And so that kind of spurred this whole conversation and kind of brought us down this path of like, look, our marriage isn't where we want it to be.

Yeah.

And this is really great perspective.

Hopefully it's helpful.

I

you're not ready to give up on this.

No, you're right.

I'm very touched i mean not any surrogacy you know like even if it was something your body couldn't handle like

you know i don't think you should give up on on your rights to having this child on your guys's own yet maybe in the future you guys decide to do that i don't know but i'm i think it would call more emotional stress than you guys

need or appreciate right now but yeah hopefully you're probably right hopefully this is helpful and hopefully you guys can

work on this but you guys have to give each other some grace for sure.

I'll certainly work on it.

Thanks, Nick.

I really appreciate it.

All right.

Well, keep me posted.

I would love to follow this journey and see how this goes, and both with the embryos and your marriage.

So, I'd love to

love an update in the future.

Absolutely.

All right.

Thank you.

We'll take care.

You too.

All right.

Bye-bye.

Bye.