E524 Sen. Bernie Sanders

Speaker 1 I have some new tour dates I want to tell you about. We will be in Lafayette, Louisiana, Thanksgiving weekend on November 29 at the Cajun Dome, baby, down there in Poirier Country.

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Speaker 1 And thank you so much for supporting Live Comedy and our show.

Speaker 1 Today's episode was filmed at the Venetian Soda and Cocktail Lounge in Burlington, Vermont. And we want to thank them for hosting us and allowing us in their beautiful space.

Speaker 1 And our guest, he's a United States Senator from Vermont. He's an Independent, though he's been friendly with the Democratic Party over the years.

Speaker 1 He's been a congressman, a senator, a presidential candidate, and he's one of the biggest lightning rods in American politics.

Speaker 1 At the very end of the interview, we did experience some difficulties with our microphones, so we apologize for the change in sound there.

Speaker 1 we're grateful to welcome today's guest, Senator Bernie Sanders.

Speaker 1 Shine

Speaker 1 on me,

Speaker 1 and I will

Speaker 1 find a star

Speaker 1 that singles.

Speaker 2 So do you

Speaker 2 travel the country doing these things?

Speaker 1 Yeah, mostly I traveled doing a stand-up comedy, but about six years ago, I started doing podcasting just in my kitchen at home. And

Speaker 1 mostly was just talking about like, I've been in recovery for years, so mostly just talking about that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 Yeah, alcohol and drugs and intimacy disorders. So a lot of that kind of stuff.
And then

Speaker 1 we started having guests after about two years. And

Speaker 1 went on Joe Rogan a few times, and that helped boost the steam, you know. And, yeah, it's been surprising since then, you know.
Congratulations.

Speaker 2 Thanks.

Speaker 1 It's made me grow up some,

Speaker 1 which is a blessing and a curse, you know?

Speaker 1 But, yeah, and I just went to The Grateful Dead the other day with my brother, so pretty cool. You ever see The Grateful Dead?

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 1 You remember, what was the first concert you ever went to?

Speaker 2 A name you probably wouldn't know.

Speaker 2 You ever hear of Pete Seeger?

Speaker 1 I've heard of Bob Seeger.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think this is Lurilotto. I was kind of into folk music more than that.

Speaker 1 Billy Strings, have you ever heard of him?

Speaker 2 Yep. Yeah.

Speaker 1 He's awesome. He's one of my favorites.
Pete Seeger, that's him right there. That's God.

Speaker 2 That was fast.

Speaker 2 Yeah, he's an interesting guy.

Speaker 2 And there's another guy who died. long time ago.
I don't know if you know his name. Woody Guthrie, is that name?

Speaker 1 Woody Guthrie, I've heard of him, yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And actually, his granddaughter helped me out during my campaigns.

Speaker 2 He was, he wrote a lot during the Great Depression. So he went around the hobo camps, talked to poor people, you know.
Wow. And he wrote songs.
Yep, he had the song, This Land is Your Land.

Speaker 2 That's his song. Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 I thought they just, I didn't even think somebody wrote that.

Speaker 2 No, he is, he was a great songwriter and a great singer.

Speaker 1 Woody Guthrie. Woody Guthrie.
I'm going to have to tap into some of his stuff. Yeah, my brother and I went.

Speaker 1 You have a brother? You have a brother. I have an older brother.
Yeah. You guys ever go to a concert together?

Speaker 2 Nope. I don't think we.

Speaker 2 He lives in Oxford, England.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's fancy over there.

Speaker 2 It is. Well, this.

Speaker 2 Have you ever been to England? Yeah. And they have this old university called Oxford University, which is one of the great universities in the world.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I stayed in a house, God,

Speaker 2 like it was 1,400 to 1,300. Who the hell knows? I mean, really.

Speaker 2 It goes way, way back. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 The plum. Yeah.
You got to bring your own plumbing, I'm sure.

Speaker 2 Well, they've advanced a little bit, but.

Speaker 1 Bernie Sanders, thank you so much for joining us today. Great to be with you.
I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1 Whenever you started in politics, I'm sure that there was like a real idea of like one person can really affect change, right?

Speaker 1 Do you think that that's still possible today with like a lot of the lobbies and stuff that they have that goes on?

Speaker 2 Well, I think, you know, one of the points that I think everybody knows is you have a government dominated by big money interests, right? That's no great secret.

Speaker 2 So you have these billionaires now in their super PACs. If you're a billionaire, you can contribute hundreds of millions of dollars to elect people, to feed people.

Speaker 2 If you're a large corporation or you represent the pharmaceutical industry, do you know

Speaker 2 how many lobbyists there are in Washington, D.C. representing the big drug companies? Take a wild and crazy guess.

Speaker 1 2,000.

Speaker 2 You got it. That's a pretty good guess.
About 1,800. Wow.
So there are 100 members of the Senate and 435 members of the House. Got it? 535.
And you got 1,800 lobbyist,

Speaker 2 well-paid, former leaders of the Democratic Party, leaders of the Republican Party. They're there to say, hey, Congress, do everything you can to make sure we make as much money as possible.

Speaker 2 And who gives a damn whether people can afford the prescription drugs they need? So that's power.

Speaker 1 So you have a whole other drug government almost going on.

Speaker 2 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 That's even bigger than our own government.

Speaker 2 Numbers wise.

Speaker 2 Well, not bigger.

Speaker 2 Well, we could define what we mean by bigger, but

Speaker 2 if you look at Wall Street, the power of Wall Street, the drug companies, the insurance companies, the fossil fuel industry, you have enormous wealth, enormous power.

Speaker 2 And if your question is, is it government that tells them what to do or they tell what the government to do, more the latter? They tell the government what to do. Very powerful.

Speaker 1 Does it feel like that's changed over your time, like in politics, or has it always been that way?

Speaker 2 I think to some degree, you know, money talks, right? No great secret. That's always been the case.
It's worse now, and I'll tell you why.

Speaker 2 As a result of this Citizens United Supreme Court decision, you familiar with that?

Speaker 2 The people brought action, billionaires really brought action. I said, hey, it's undemocratic.
You're taking away my freedom of speech, right? I got a First Amendment right. We're on TV now.

Speaker 2 You could say whatever you want to say. And I'm a billionaire.
And I want to spend unlimited sums of money to defeat this candidate or support this candidate.

Speaker 2 And you have laws on the books that restrict my freedom to buy the election you understand what i'm saying 100 okay and supreme court said well guys you're right you're billionaires you should be able to spend as much money as you want to buy elections and that's what you have so right now this is literally the truth you have super packs where billionaires can put unlimited amounts of money hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars to defeat people they don't like or to support people they do like.

Speaker 2 That's power. And that is a corruption of what democracy is supposed to be.
Look, you and I can disagree on an issue. All right, 10 people.
We argue it out. We vote.
I get the majority.

Speaker 2 You get the majority. Somebody wins, somebody loses.
I don't think billionaires should be able to buy elections.

Speaker 1 And I think most people think that. Most people are like, why are corporations or companies allowed to

Speaker 1 give money to candidates and influence elections, right? Almost every person I know says that that should be

Speaker 1 no.

Speaker 2 Whose responsibility is it to make sure it doesn't happen is it ours or is it our is it the politicians what happened is there were laws put in place not as strong as I would like but Schlitt did limit the power of big money yeah okay and what that Supreme Court decision said is what Congress did was unconstitutional denied big money their freedom of speech if you're a billionaire you have freedom of speech that means you can run ads all over the day and to you know beat Bernie Sanders beat anybody uh and that's what happened so what we have got to do now is once again pass legislation that will will do that are there politicians that aren't viable kind of or aren't influenced by lobbyists of course there are there are yeah there's some very good people but many people look

Speaker 2 just throw out an example you're running for election okay

Speaker 2 your opponent is spending millions of dollars these tv ads are up there all right Do you think you're going to stand up to powerful special interests who say, you know, Theo, listen, I like you, but you're going to take that position on that issue.

Speaker 2 I've got to be running millions of dollars of ads against you. What do you think you're going to do if you want to get elected? You could say, well, go to hell.
I'm going to do it anyhow.

Speaker 2 And many would do. Or you run the risk of, you know, seeing that kind of money come against you.

Speaker 1 Or you then have to find a lobbyist that has an interest of yours and you have to try and fight Mike.

Speaker 2 Which is a pretty pathetic thing, right? Right. So to some degree, what you have right now, it's a funny kind of thing.
It's, let's say you were running against me. It's not you against me.

Speaker 2 It's your moneyed interest versus my moneyed interest. That's what super PACs are.

Speaker 2 Now, corporations cannot directly contribute to your campaign, but they, big money interest, billionaires can contribute to a super PAC.

Speaker 2 So you have all these, what I would say to you, people watch the show here, look at the ads that are on television. They'll be underneath it, you'll see paid for by.

Speaker 2 Supporters of the American way of life or whatever the hell it is. Understand that in most cases, these are billionaires putting money into a campeda.

Speaker 1 So the super PAC is kind of the loophole

Speaker 1 is how they do it. So it's not directly from exactly.

Speaker 2 There are limits. All right, you wanted to contribute to my campaign.
They're pretty stringent limits. You can't contribute.
I think it's, I don't know, it's $5,000.

Speaker 2 Through a super PAC, you can contribute $100 million. Wow.

Speaker 2 That's a big issue. We don't talk about it enough.
And then you can understand that if you're an ordinary person,

Speaker 2 who's going to listen to your interests, your needs, right? When billionaires are putting in this kind of money?

Speaker 1 Right. If the best I can help you out with is $5,000,

Speaker 1 you might show up and shake my hand, but when something really, when the rickshaw hits the road or whatever, you're going to be working for the big dogs for the cash.

Speaker 2 And that's the way the system works.

Speaker 1 And how do we change that?

Speaker 2 Well, first of all, this campaign finance reform is a big deal, just this money issue. And I'm glad you raised it.
We've got to do away with the citizens unit. We have to have restrictions.
Okay?

Speaker 2 When I ran for president, the average contribution was $27, okay,

Speaker 2 roughly speaking. And we've got millions of people to contribute.
So I think there has to be a real stringent limit on the amount of money that any individual can put into the political process.

Speaker 2 And I also believe that we should move to what we call public funding of elections. You're a candidate, you want to run for governor, you want to run for senator.

Speaker 2 If you show that you have a certain amount of support, you've got X number of thousands of people willing to put $5 into your campaign, you can be able to get public funding and there's a limit at how much you can spend.

Speaker 2 These are not radical ideas. They exist in many countries around the world, actually.
Yeah, it's pretty normal.

Speaker 1 Do you think that our election process is still democratic? Do you think it's still

Speaker 2 yes and no? I mean, you know, you want to run for office. Can you? Yep, you can.

Speaker 2 You've got a certain number of signatures. But if you're going to win and I have 10 times more money than you do, I will beat you 95% of the time.
Wow. I mean, that's a fact, right? Right, honestly.

Speaker 2 But you'll beat me. Maybe if you're really an exceptional candidate and I'm a real idiot, you will beat me once in a a while.
But by and large, the money people will win.

Speaker 2 So if you're asking me, are we a democracy? In one sense, we are. All right.
You can run for office. You can raise your issues.
On the other hand, in terms of who has the real power, money people do.

Speaker 2 And I use the term oligarchy. And oligarchy is a society where small numbers of very wealthy people control the economic and political life of the country.

Speaker 2 I think we are moving rapidly in that direction.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I feel like it's, to me, it feels like almost privatized communism in a way. Right.

Speaker 2 That's a very good point.

Speaker 2 It's a very good, it's an interesting way of looking at it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and I don't know exactly sometimes everything of what communism isn't, what socialism is, but sometimes that's how it feels.

Speaker 2 Well, let me give you an example. Let me pick it.
Can I pick up on your point? Sure. Okay.

Speaker 2 I believe

Speaker 2 we are the only nation on earth, major nation, wealthy nation, that does not guarantee health care to all people, okay?

Speaker 2 Get in your car, go 50 miles where you are sitting right now in Burlington, Vermont. You have a terrible automobile accident.
You're in the hospital for a month in Canada.

Speaker 2 Do you know what the bill is when you come out?

Speaker 2 Zero. Nothing.
Okay. Do you know how much the Canadians spend per person on health care compared to us? One half as much.

Speaker 2 They spend half as much. You don't take out your wallet.
If you get sick, you're the doctor that you want. Okay.

Speaker 2 I believe in that type of system. They guarantee health care to all of their people.

Speaker 2 It's publicly funded the way we fund police departments, fire departments, and libraries.

Speaker 2 You got to pay taxes for it. But at the end of the day, it is less expensive for your health care.
You following what I'm saying? Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because

Speaker 1 you're a proponent for healthcare for all, right? Absolutely. And yes, and you always have been.

Speaker 1 But how the system seemed, that system seems so rigged, because

Speaker 1 you have like one of the number one causes of bankruptcy in America is medical debt.

Speaker 2 right? Yes. Unbelievable.

Speaker 1 Like people can't,

Speaker 1 you know, people,

Speaker 1 they go in, they don't even know the cost. They sign an agreement that they're going to be billed later.
Right.

Speaker 1 It's like, and then they get the bill and it's astronomical and they spend the rest of their life literally a slave to the healthcare system or to the medical billing system or the insure, you know, dealing with their insurance.

Speaker 1 And not to mention they're sick. So the added stress of that,

Speaker 1 it just feels like, yeah, like something so much better could be done.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that is so pathetic and so sick and so cruel. I mean, we did a hearing on this.

Speaker 2 And roughly speaking, and I know the viewers will think this is like hard to believe.

Speaker 2 Half of the people who are dealing with cancer, now cancer is a terrible disease, right? Your point. 100%.
You're struggling for your life, right?

Speaker 2 Maybe you make it, maybe you don't. You got radiation, chemotherapy, bad stuff, right?

Speaker 2 Half the people who get cancer treatment either end up in bankruptcy or utilizing all of the financial resources of the family. They're depleted.
They're broke. So imagine that.

Speaker 2 You go into the hospital, doctors are theoretically, you got cancer, terrible, you're worried to death, right? Your friends, your family are worried.

Speaker 2 And then on top of that, what are you worried about? Oh my God, what? I'm going to have to sell my house.

Speaker 2 I have to go bankrupt in order to pay medical bills. That is insane.

Speaker 2 And it is. If you're trying to deal with cancer, then you got to worry about financial stress.
Think it's going to make your condition any better? No, the worst.

Speaker 1 You spend half your day. You can't even, in the insurance companies, it's all a rigmarole.
It's constant stress. But how is it set up like that? Like,

Speaker 1 what is the gimmick between insurers and the hospital? What's the, that's the thing I don't know. What's going on?

Speaker 2 Take it a step. Let's take a step further.
Okay. Let me talk about the Canadian system.
All right. Simple system.
You pay taxes and progressive. The more you make, the more you pay.

Speaker 2 But everyone pays taxes. All right.
End result is you walk into the hospital, you sign your name, you have all the treatment you need. And it's good quality health care.

Speaker 2 You don't have to argue with insurance companies. You get the care that the doctors think you need.
End of discussion. And in my view, that's the way it should be.
We spend,

Speaker 2 it's not just that the insurance companies make huge profits. They do.
Not just that they pay their CEOs exorbitant salaries, which they do.

Speaker 2 Everybody's going to fill out a thousand different forms, right? Goes crazy. Filling out forms to see what you're entitled to, what you're not entitled to, deductibles, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah, the bureaucracy. It's ridiculous.
Right. Is that called bureaucracy? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's exactly what it is. All right.
So look, you may have health insurance, but buy, I just talked to a person the other day. We did a meeting.
You know what their deductible was? $13,000.

Speaker 2 What does that mean? It means that the first $13,000 of illness, they got to pay out of their own pocket. How many people can make $13,000?

Speaker 2 So if you get hit by a truck and you own up a million dollar bill, yeah, the insurance companies will kick in, presumably. All right.
So the whole idea.

Speaker 2 that healthcare in America, unlike every other major country, all right, go to Europe, go to Canada, go to many Latin American countries. It is a bloody right, not a privilege.

Speaker 2 And that's what I think it should be. So we have a system that works very well for the insurance companies and the drug companies.

Speaker 2 In some cases, you're going to pay 10 times more for medication in America than they do in other countries. That's a whole other story we're trying to deal with right now.

Speaker 2 But it's a corrupt system benefiting the people who own it, not the ordinary American. You go out on the street, go out on the street, say to people, do you think healthcare is a human right?

Speaker 2 All people in America shut out. Yeah, we do.
That's what I'm fighting for.

Speaker 1 And who are the lobbyists that are against that then? Who do you think?

Speaker 2 The guys from the insurance companies and the drug companies.

Speaker 1 Okay, and then what politicians work with those? Like, why don't we know what politicians are cheating us so that we don't have them in anymore?

Speaker 2 All right. You're a smart guy.
You tell me, how often have you heard a discussion in this country about how broken the healthcare system is and comparing it to other countries? A lot. All right.

Speaker 2 You've heard a lot about this?

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, I think I hear a lot about, i i look into it a lot oh you look into it but how many people even know that we are the only major country on earth not to guarantee healthcare to all people so when people say oh bern sands is a radical idea he thinks everybody should have health care really that exists in canada it's in france in england in denmark and sweden in every bloody country on earth virtually rich country so it's not a radical even mars i heard they have health care there now

Speaker 1 i wouldn't be surprised now some people would say that the argument against that would be that then there's less personal responsibility to take care of yourself, right?

Speaker 2 But do you.

Speaker 2 Really?

Speaker 1 But that would be in other countries anyway, right?

Speaker 2 That would be in every country.

Speaker 2 If God forbid you or I came down with a serious illness,

Speaker 2 am I going to blame you for coming down with cancer? I mean, is that a personal responsibility?

Speaker 1 That's a good point.

Speaker 1 Yeah, probably not. That might just be kind of a

Speaker 1 ghost of an argument. And here's...

Speaker 2 But to pick up on that point,

Speaker 2 what should one of the priorities of a good health care system be? It should be to try to keep people healthy.

Speaker 2 So it should encourage people to have good diet, to do exercise, to stay away from addictive stuff, right?

Speaker 2 Do we do a particularly good job on that? Not so much. Because where do the insurance companies make their money? Hey, if you're really sick, pretty good.
Yeah. We keep you healthy,

Speaker 2 not so much.

Speaker 1 Are they one of the largest lobbyist groups? Yep. Wow.

Speaker 2 Very, very. They're huge.
I mean, we started this discussion. You talk about privatized communism, whatever the expression you used,

Speaker 2 is I believe that, you know, Medicare is the health insurance program for the elderly. Medicaid is for lower-income people.
I think we should combine all these and guarantee health care to all people.

Speaker 2 But your point is that in the private sector, we are moving to a monopoly. And it's true.
People like United Health, unbelievable.

Speaker 2 United Health, to the best of my knowledge,

Speaker 2 has under contract or hires 10% of the doctors in America. Wow.
Got that? One insurance company. One company.
10% of the doctors.

Speaker 1 And so how would you even start to undo something like that? Like, what's a realistic path to reform?

Speaker 2 Okay, here's, thanks. Great question.

Speaker 2 Because I wrote the bill, I know the answer. Okay.
Okay. All right.
Right now, you have Medicare, which is a very popular program. It's life-saving to many elderly people.

Speaker 2 That was developed in the 1960s by President Lyndon Johnson. Okay, very popular program.
You've got Medicaid for the lower-income people, also a popular program.

Speaker 2 What I would do is over a four-year period, take Medicare. First thing you do is expand Medicare because Medicare does not now cover dental,

Speaker 2 hearing, or vision. A lot of people can't afford to go to a dentist.
Got me? Yeah. Okay, you expand it.
And then you say, right now, to be eligible for Medicare, you got to be 65 years of age.

Speaker 2 First year, lower it to 55. So you're 57.
Congratulations. You don't have to worry about whether you have insurance on your job.

Speaker 2 You want to hear something else crazy about the private insurance system.

Speaker 2 You work for a big corporation, okay? They give you good health insurance. He works for McDonald's, virtually nothing.
All right? That's pretty crazy.

Speaker 2 Where you work determines the kind of health care you get. Anyhow, so we go from 65 down to 55,

Speaker 2 55 next year down to 45, 45 to 35, fourth year you cover everybody. Gradual absorption.
So you have a Medicare system that covers all people. You no longer have to pay any more

Speaker 2 deductibles or co-payments, no more premiums. You get your health care because you're an American citizen.
Will your taxes go up? They may.

Speaker 2 Will it be less than what you pay right now in private insurance? Yes, it will be. It's a good deal.

Speaker 1 Can we afford that as a country, you think?

Speaker 2 True. Yeah.
We are now spending over $4 trillion on health care. We spend double.
Here's another point to be made.

Speaker 2 We spend twice as much per person on health care as any other country because it's designed to make money for the insurance companies and the drug companies.

Speaker 1 Wait, so explain it to me. So we spend twice as much on health care.

Speaker 2 We are spending right now

Speaker 1 as any other country per person. Yes.
But we're not, but the money isn't going towards them getting.

Speaker 1 So we'd almost save the money just by.

Speaker 2 You got it. All right.
Here, example. Is that true? Yes, it's true.
Check it out. It is true.
Chairman of the bloody committee. Yes, it is true.

Speaker 1 All right. Bloody, literally, people are holding to believe.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 2 If I buy a car tomorrow for $80,000, you buy a car for $40,000.

Speaker 2 What is the presumption? Should my car be a better car than yours? Yes. Okay.
I'm spending twice as much. All right, but I got a really much great better car than you have.
All right.

Speaker 2 We are spending per person, per person,

Speaker 2 over $13,000. All right, spending $13,000 on you, $13,000 on me, $13,000 on a five-year-old, $13,000 on a 90-year-old.
All right. $13,000 per person, over $4 trillion nationally.

Speaker 2 Canadians are spending about half of that per person.

Speaker 1 And they're taking care of everybody? Yes.

Speaker 2 And the British are spending less than that.

Speaker 1 Other countries, a little bit less. But does that affect us with the population number that we have?

Speaker 2 No, it doesn't matter. I mean,

Speaker 2 per person. Got it.

Speaker 2 I'm not talking about in-gross, but per person.

Speaker 1 How do you stop hospitals from overcharging?

Speaker 2 That's part of the

Speaker 2 corrupt system.

Speaker 1 If they know that the government's going to pick up the tab.

Speaker 2 Good. Very good question.
The answer is what they do. I mean, it's not like we're inventing something.
Other countries do it.

Speaker 2 What they say to hospitals is, look, you're not going to be charging Theo when he's in the hospital. You're not going to be charging him a nickel.

Speaker 2 But we know, roughly speaking, in a year what you are going to be. You need a certain number of doctors and radiologists and nurses and all that stuff.
Here is your budget.

Speaker 2 It's like a police department. Here's your budget.
In a year, you need more. Maybe we'll come up with more.
You get what we call a global budget like the dodgers or something

Speaker 2 but you get a global budget right you got a budget and you take care of all the needs it's not per person you get it and what you do there we spend as a nation one of the other insanities of this healthcare system

Speaker 2 we spend hundreds of billions of dollars on billing you know what i mean by that article billing yeah all right so on the insurance companies first of all you got to fill out forms i hire people who are not doctors or nurses right?

Speaker 2 They're just bill collectors. Oh, yeah.
All right. You got bill collectors.

Speaker 2 You go to a hospital, go down to the basement, got 100, well, depending on the size of the hospital, dozens of dozens of people. They don't see a patient.
They're just filling out forms.

Speaker 1 Yeah, half the Philippines is people just doing medical billing over the phone, you know?

Speaker 2 Well, there are countries where you show your card, and that's the end of the discussion. But we waste hundreds of billions of dollars just on billing people.

Speaker 2 Now, there's another issue I want to discuss. Life expectancy.
What do we know about life expectancy?

Speaker 1 We're getting pretty long in the tooth.

Speaker 1 Nope.

Speaker 1 We're getting, we're not living long. Nope.

Speaker 2 Compared to whom?

Speaker 1 Compared to probably

Speaker 1 Vietnam.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm sure maybe. All right, but

Speaker 2 we are the richest country on earth. Do we live longer lives than other people?

Speaker 2 No, we don't. We do not.
In fact, we're pretty far down the list. Why is that?

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, I think it could be that we're not taking as good care of ourselves. Okay.
And I think it could be that,

Speaker 1 yeah, that we don't have as good a health care.

Speaker 2 That's right. All right.

Speaker 2 I think that's two out of three. All right.
Now, there are two facts.

Speaker 2 We,

Speaker 2 country, Japan, other countries will live four or five years, six years longer than we do. That's a lot.
You know what I mean? Yeah. So they'll live, I forgot what it is.

Speaker 1 Like 8% or something.

Speaker 2 Yeah, right. It's a lot.
But here's another fact that is really unbelievable. It's not just that we live shorter lives despite spending so much on healthcare.
The gap between the 1%

Speaker 2 and the working class is 10 years.

Speaker 2 If you're rich, you'll live as long as people in other countries. You have a long life, in the 80s or whatever it is.
If you're working class, you're going to live 10 years. Younger.

Speaker 2 How does that happen, do you think? Wow.

Speaker 1 Because just stress, burnout.

Speaker 2 Man, all right. I'm I'm going to sign you up there.
You got it.

Speaker 1 Look, I think I like a lot of the things that you think about.

Speaker 2 All right. Let's deal with the issue of stress.
Okay. Because you're right.
It is twofold, it seems to me. Number one is if you're rich, you go to any doctor you want.

Speaker 2 When you want it, get paid for all the drugs you need, right? Yeah. All right.
That's a real advantage. But above and beyond that, working class people live under enormous stress.
All right.

Speaker 2 And that takes a toll on you. It takes a toll on you physically and mentally.

Speaker 2 And that is, we have parts of this country where life expectancy is actually in decline.

Speaker 2 Got it? People are living shorter lives. Because of the stress.
Because of the stress. And with that stress and the hopelessness, they turn to drugs, they turn to alcohol, they turn to suicide.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 All right. Bad stuff.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. I think those are things that, yeah, they don't even take those factors into consideration when they're making all of these, you know, you call to get your medical bill.
It's a nightmare.

Speaker 1 It's like it's, it's a fight. You almost want to, this is crazy.
There's been times when I've been like, I would rather take my own life than sit here and make another fucking call.

Speaker 1 And I'm not even sick, you know? I'm just somebody trying to get to the bottom of the.

Speaker 2 All right. And what, why does that happen? What's

Speaker 1 because it's loopholes. They want you.
They don't want you to get paid. You got it.

Speaker 2 Not that hard. Look, you pay me money through insurance, right?

Speaker 2 So you're sick. I'm supposed to, you know, pay your bills, right?

Speaker 2 If I drive you crazy, you're going to say,

Speaker 2 screw it.

Speaker 2 Hell with it. i'll pay the goddamn thing myself it's not worth it yeah good i'm the insurance company

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Speaker 1 So, how then, how do we change that as a system? What do we do? Like, because it feels like we would, we're electing people that have this in our best interest.

Speaker 1 If that's the number one cause of bankruptcy is medical billing, how do our politicians not see that this is extremely important and that things need to be different?

Speaker 1 Like, what are they lobbying so powerfully with? I know it's money, but it's like,

Speaker 1 I just can't imagine that

Speaker 1 people wouldn't see the good, the value, and what is right.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 you know, it's all that I can tell you is money talks to a large degree. And it's not to suggest that, you know, members of Congress are evil or terrible people that want people to suffer.
They don't.

Speaker 2 But you have a system which almost says, oh, you can't even think about guaranteeing health care to all people. Oh, my God.
What kind of, you're, you're a far leftist. Yeah.

Speaker 2 What are you a communist man? What are you?

Speaker 2 You don't want to take all the insurance companies, hardworking people, you know. So it almost, you're not even allowed to talk about those issues.

Speaker 2 And meanwhile, we're the only country that doesn't guarantee health care.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, my one caveat, and I don't know exactly what caveat means, but I think my one,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 left turn on it would be,

Speaker 1 yeah, how much responsibility then do people, are people going to just have totally less responsibility and just be taking pills? You know, I don't know. Maybe that's just a crazy thought.

Speaker 1 But if it's not happening in other countries, then maybe that's a good example that it wouldn't happen here.

Speaker 2 It is an issue in other countries. For example, all right, you're a lonely older person.
Maybe you're living by yourself.

Speaker 2 I'm feeling lonely. Maybe I'll go to the doctor, right? When I'm not really sick.
Yeah, for sure. Will people abuse it? Yeah.
So what? I mean, it happens, and you try to discourage that.

Speaker 2 So whole system is perfect. Right.

Speaker 2 But the bottom line, as Americans, we have to answer a very simple question. Is healthcare a right of all people, whether you're rich, poor, medium, whatever you are? I think the answer is yes.

Speaker 1 Well, I think especially when you start to look at other places that we spend our money, it would be very hard not to say we should certainly spend it there first.

Speaker 1 It's just fucking unbelievable that we're this powerful of a country and we don't have a

Speaker 1 an emotion like

Speaker 1 it's like we lost our emotional

Speaker 2 that's a good point. And I'll tell you something else.
Let me get off of healthcare for a second.

Speaker 1 Okay. Well, before we get off, I want to, so I know that

Speaker 1 you guys have a bill

Speaker 1 because I have a group that I've worked with, done volunteer stuff with called Power to the Patients, right?

Speaker 1 And it's, it's notating the prices of, like, say you get an MRI, like the hospital now has to let you know that the MRI is $700.

Speaker 1 So you can call the hospital down the street and see that there, it's $550.

Speaker 1 So you can make a choice. So you know up front.
That's got it. So you're not getting a $10,000 bill later on.
You got it.

Speaker 2 It's called the Transparency Bill.

Speaker 1 Transparency Bill. And is it passed yet or no?

Speaker 2 No, it has not. I'm working with it with a guy named Senator Braun from Indiana, who's a Republican, good guy.

Speaker 2 And look, it's exactly the issue. People walk into an emergency room.
They walk into a hospital. Do you have any idea?

Speaker 2 You know, here, Theo, this is what we're going to do for you, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you come out and you drop dead because you see a bill of tens of thousands of dollars, right?

Speaker 2 That's the crazy part.

Speaker 2 i mean people go in and surgery no they come out hundreds of thousands of dollars in that it's crazy yes it's insane all right and the point is look uh i should have the right to know uh

Speaker 2 you want to hear you think it's crazy let me tell you how crazy it's even crazier than you think it is okay okay

Speaker 2 you have blue cross insurance i have another insurance company same hospital you go and get an mri

Speaker 2 Your insurance company will pay $500. My insurance company pays $700.

Speaker 2 So even in the same hospital for the same treatment, the price is different, not to mention different hospitals. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, it's just wild that they can do that. It's almost like I'm going to go to the grocery store.
I'm going to get an apple, right? I'm going to eat it.

Speaker 1 And then after I eat it, you're going to tell me how much it costs.

Speaker 2 You got it. That is exactly.

Speaker 1 And they're like, it's $400. You're like, is it from the Garden of Eden? You know, like, but it's even worse.

Speaker 2 You're exactly right. But it's even worse because you had to go to the hospital.
Right. Right.

Speaker 1 Yes. It wasn't a choice that you made.
Um, I know you had you guys had launched an investigation, even because this is kind of current about Ozempic, right?

Speaker 1 And the cost of Ozempic in different countries. Uh, because I was dating a girl or not dating, but we met, you know, we met up a couple of times at night or whatever.

Speaker 1 And it's like she was leaving one morning to drive to Mexico to get Ozempic. And I'm like, what are you? You're just driving in the middle of the, you know, at 5 a.m.
to go to, what's going on?

Speaker 1 And she's like, well, it's just way cheaper there. And I'm like, but is it as regulated? You know, I don't know.
But I know that in some countries

Speaker 1 the prices on it are so different. Like in Canada, it's $150 something dollars.
Got it. And in America, it's $700 and something.
Close to $1,000. It's close to $1,000 for a diabetes medication.

Speaker 1 I know some people use it for, you know,

Speaker 2 kind of

Speaker 1 weight loss or look the way they want, spring break or whatever. But that's crazy.
Why is it that? Why isn't it just the same?

Speaker 1 Is it because they know they can charge us more because we have more money?

Speaker 2 That's half of it, but only half of it. That's a great question.
Thanks for asking it. All right.
It's what my committee deals with every day. We've had, by the way,

Speaker 2 some success in the last few years, and the Biden people have done a good job on this. All right.

Speaker 2 Why is it that,

Speaker 2 I want to make sure I'm right here. Well, certainly in Canada, it's about $150

Speaker 2 for Ozempic. Here, it's 900, close to 1,000.

Speaker 2 Why is that? What the Canadians do and what countries around the world do, what makes common sense,

Speaker 2 They purchase a lot of the drug, right? All right. So they sit down with the drug companies and they say, look, you know, we have hundreds of thousands of people going to use your drug.

Speaker 2 We're going to sit down and negotiate a price, right? Right.

Speaker 1 Of course, certainly after a few months, you should be able to see the averages and make a good business choice. Right.

Speaker 2 I mean, if you're bulk, if you're a businessman and you're buying something from me, you're buying thousands of items. I'm going to have to give you a discount if I want your business, right?

Speaker 2 Certainly. That's the way the business works.
So that's what every country country on earth does. They sit down with the drug companies.
Some do it more stringently than others.

Speaker 2 Up until very, very recently, there have been no requirements, zero, for the drug companies to negotiate anything. So they come in and they say, they have the board.

Speaker 2 What do you think we can get, Harry? Sitting around at their board of directors. Well, actually, I think you can get $10,000 a year.
No, I think you can go high. They can get $20,000.

Speaker 2 Look, we get what the market will bear. The government has no power, charge of anything you want.
That's what they do. So you got now, it's not just Ozempic,

Speaker 2 in which we pay in some cases 15 times more than European countries. It's all kinds of drugs.

Speaker 2 So the answer is, the answer to your question is, up until recently, and the Biden administration has done a good job of this, there have been no capabilities of the government, Medicare, anybody else, to negotiate prices.

Speaker 2 They charge anything they want and as much as they possibly can. What we did is part of a bill called the Inflation Reduction Act, stupid title to the bill, but that's what it was.
Finally have

Speaker 2 that the drug companies are going to have to sit down with Medicare and negotiate prices. They're going to be announcing some interesting results pretty soon.

Speaker 2 So for the first time, there is the beginning of negotiating prices and it will lower prices. Second of all, what we've done on my committee, a lot of people

Speaker 2 have asthma. And they use inhalers.
I don't know if you know anybody who uses an asthma inhaler.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 2 Ten times more expensive in the United States. Well, we kind of shamed some of the big companies.
They lowered it down to, some of them, to $35.

Speaker 2 So making some progress on lowering the cost of prescription choice. But to answer your question, up until a couple of years ago, drug companies could charge any price they wanted for any reason.

Speaker 1 And now, and that could be changing with the Inflation Act?

Speaker 2 Yeah, Inflation Reduction Act. What it basically says.

Speaker 2 is the 10 top selling drugs. They're going to have to come then and sit down and negotiate with Medicare price.
That is, by the way, what the Veterans Administration does.

Speaker 2 The VA in America does a good job.

Speaker 2 They don't pay outrageous prices. They negotiate, and that's what Medicare is beginning to do.

Speaker 1 Yeah, if you can't breathe, I mean, yeah, you're almost a fish if you can't breathe, you know?

Speaker 1 Let's talk about some politics. Oh, wait, and so and the price and the price transparency, that's happening now.
Like people have to show their prices or they don't?

Speaker 2 No, they don't. We still haven't passed that bill.

Speaker 1 Okay. Do you think it's going to happen?

Speaker 2 It's a popular bill. I think we have a good shot to get it done.
Yeah. That's cool.

Speaker 1 Yeah, man. It makes me just sick because somebody's already sick and you know they're sick.
Like if it were your family member, you want them to just sit there and just be angry.

Speaker 1 They're on the phone every day. Then they don't have any energy for their own family.
It's just.

Speaker 1 You're absolutely right. I just don't, I just can't imagine choosing, especially when you're already making a ton of money.

Speaker 1 Choosing to make a little more money. What do you need?

Speaker 2 Well, now you're raising even another issue.

Speaker 1 What do you need?

Speaker 2 But Corporate greed here, but that's another issue.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I know you hate it. We all hate it.
I think America is at the point where the screw has been turned so fucking tight that I think, yeah,

Speaker 1 it starts to create radicalization, starts to create a lot of stuff.

Speaker 1 Let's talk about

Speaker 1 the election coming up right now

Speaker 1 or just the current candidacy. I wanted

Speaker 1 in 2020, I believe that's when you ran, I wanted you and Donald Trump to be on the same ticket, right? That was a thought that I had because in my mind, I'm just a regular guy.

Speaker 1 I don't know a ton about politics, right?

Speaker 1 I wanted, I felt both y'all were outliers, right? That's how it seemed to me. These guys are both outliers.
They're both

Speaker 2 different,

Speaker 1 but seem to be doing their own thing.

Speaker 1 You've been outspoken against Trump, right? Do you think he's not,

Speaker 1 is he doing his own thing or is he?

Speaker 2 Look, I will give Trump credit. Okay.
He does his own thing. Okay.
He's a very different type of politician. And that's clear.

Speaker 2 But this is what I do think, Theo.

Speaker 2 While I respect somebody who has the guts to do their own thing and be very much a non-traditional politician, which is what he is, here's the facts.

Speaker 2 He lies all the time.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I got four kids and I got seven grandchildren.

Speaker 2 And we really have to ask ourselves whether the guy who is the leader of the country, whether that's the kind of example that we want.

Speaker 2 So I have a lot of friends in politics who differ with me, more conservative people. They're not liars.
We disagree. So you and I disagree on something.
It's fine. So what?

Speaker 2 It's called America and Democracy.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it used to be fine.

Speaker 2 That's right.

Speaker 2 But Trump really is, I use the word pathological, he lies.

Speaker 2 When you see him, I tell them,

Speaker 2 not everything, but a lot of lies. Okay, and I think that's, we can't have that.

Speaker 2 You know, and second, you know, when he was in the private sector,

Speaker 2 before he became involved in politics he was sued his companies were sued 4 000 times and and i just above and beyond his political views which i disagree with but then you those you can discuss i don't think you want somebody leading this country who is shady so you're saying the ex he doesn't set the best example of a of exactly look you got kids i don't you have any kids i don't have any yet all right all right all right well you know i hope you do and are you you want kids to be honest right yeah you don't want them to be bullies and picking on the the weak and and he so that from a character point of view i i don't like it also let me give you another example i happen to believe i don't know what your views are uh that women have a right to control their own bodies all right i don't want as a man somebody saying oh bernie you know you can't have a vasectomy you can't do this you can't my business not the government's and trump does not hold that view uh i happen to believe strongly that climate change is real we got the you know just a week or two ago i saw your podcast with um Bill Billenkoff.

Speaker 2 Bill McKibben, of course. I've known Bill for years.

Speaker 1 Bill McKibben, yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and Bill is.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I want to get to speak to him. He seems really interesting.

Speaker 2 Smart guy. Is he? I've known him for years.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because I want to learn more about, you know, you just always hear about climate change. And so, yeah, I want to learn more about it.

Speaker 2 Good. And I hope you do.
And I'm sure Bill would be happy to go on the show with you. That'd be cool.
You know, if you wanted, I can give him a call. Awesome.

Speaker 2 All of the scientists agree. When you put carbon into the atmosphere, it creates a ceiling there.
The Earth warms up. And then because of the Earth warming up, you have extreme weather disturbances.

Speaker 2 You come from Louisiana, do you? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 You've seen the terrible floods there. We've had them here in Vermont.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they have in Savannah right now going on.

Speaker 2 Right, that's right.

Speaker 2 You know, floods, the likes of which we've never seen. You're seeing drought.
You know, in Saudi Arabia, temperature reaches 125 degrees, which people are dying by the hundreds.

Speaker 2 So Trump does not believe that climate change is real. And if he becomes president, that means not only will the United States, the whole world will give up.

Speaker 2 And I don't know what this planet is going to look like in, you know, 10, 15 years.

Speaker 1 And do you say that? Because America is really the leader of the forefront of looking out for climate change.

Speaker 2 It will be the largest economy in the world.

Speaker 2 China is a bigger polluter than we are right now.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, dude. They all smoke, too.
A lot of Chinese people. Yeah, that kid that smokes on that bicycle or or whatever.
He's smoking like 11th cigarettes. Right.
But

Speaker 2 if we say, hey, to hell with it, then other countries are going to, because it's a global problem. Right.

Speaker 1 Then everybody's going to be like, oh, you got everybody backs off.

Speaker 2 And then I don't know what this planet. You talk about floods.
It's going to get worse and worse. Heat waves worse.
Drought worse. Migrations.

Speaker 2 There are millions, hundreds of millions of people, little farmers in poor countries. They can't farm anymore.
Yeah. Okay.
So I disagree with Trump on that.

Speaker 2 So those are some of the reasons why, you know, I'm strongly against him.

Speaker 1 Those are important issues, you know, certainly, yeah. And I don't think everybody, yeah, it's like everybody can have their own thoughts on different issues.
And do you see why people like him?

Speaker 2 I do.

Speaker 2 You know, because he's very disarming. He gets up there and he says whatever the hell he wants.
Yeah. He is not.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he doesn't seem like he's by the book. That was a thing.

Speaker 2 He is not by the book. Right.

Speaker 1 And so that's something the same as you. It's like he's speaking for, it feels like they're speaking for themselves, right?

Speaker 1 Whether you agree with maybe what they believe, they believe what they're saying. And that, I think, comes through

Speaker 1 clearly to people.

Speaker 2 I think, you know, he's certainly unusual. Gets up there and he rants and he does his thing.
And he's not necessarily, I'm sure his advisors go crazy. But he's not reading, you know, not reading off.

Speaker 2 He doesn't know.

Speaker 1 Well, Kid Rock is one of his advisors, you know?

Speaker 2 And look, I love Kid Rock, but, you know, I don't know if every advice, you know, every advice of his is the best.

Speaker 1 But now, some of it is, that's for sure, but some of it may not be.

Speaker 2 Right. And, you know, a lot of these politicians have 18 different consultants.
You can't use that word. You can't say that.
You know, and he's not like that.

Speaker 1 He's not miserable. He's not like that.

Speaker 2 Right. And people find that appealing.
I get it.

Speaker 2 But, you know, again, I don't think you could have a pathological liar if somebody doesn't believe in women's, have the right, women have right to control their bodies, you know, who doesn't believe in climate change.

Speaker 2 I think that's, that's bad. And by the way, I'm not quite so sure how much he believes in democracy as well.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, and look, yeah,

Speaker 1 that's exactly, that's how you feel. And it's important.

Speaker 1 And you've always had your own feelings. And I appreciate you always having them and sharing what they are.

Speaker 1 Did you feel like whenever the people tried to assassinate, did you think it was deeper than that? Or you think it was just some Reddit jockey just on the table?

Speaker 2 First of all, it was a horrible, I mean, I disagree with Trump on everything, but the idea of people assassinating Trump or anybody else is

Speaker 1 crazy.

Speaker 2 It's crazy. It is horrible.
And it's, I mean, I can't give you the words. It's just.
terrible. We cannot have that in American politics.
My own guess, and I'm not an expert.

Speaker 2 I'm sure there are a lot of

Speaker 2 conspiratorial theories that are out there. You know, I think you have, you know, we've seen it before.
You've seen seemingly normal people walking into schools with guns doing horrible things, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah. You know, and I think you had, for whatever reason, I don't want to even speculate

Speaker 2 why this young man did what he did.

Speaker 1 But you just think it was a young man who just, that was it?

Speaker 2 That's what the evidence seems to suggest so far.

Speaker 1 Right. But you didn't hear anything else.
You guys don't hear anything else as Congress people. You don't hear anything.

Speaker 2 I don't know deeper than that. There are great secrets that you don't know.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Do you think that Kamal Harris is the best person to run against Donald Trump right now?

Speaker 2 Well, she is the person, and that's...

Speaker 1 And that won't change probably, huh?

Speaker 2 No, she'll be the Democratic candidate. And, you know, I've known Kamala for a number of years, not best friends, but I've known her.

Speaker 2 She was in the Senate for a short period. She's very smart, and she's determined.
I mean, above and beyond her views on the

Speaker 2 issues, which I

Speaker 2 support most of them, not all.

Speaker 2 You've got to give credit to somebody, a black woman, to move up the ladder. That ain't easy stuff.
There's a lot of resistance to that. And

Speaker 2 she's persistent. She's strong.
And I respect that. And, you know, I think she'll be a good candidate.
I was interested that Trump apparently backed out of a debate with her on ABC.

Speaker 2 And I could,

Speaker 2 I wouldn't, you know, I have debated her, as a matter of fact.

Speaker 2 She's tough. She's tough.

Speaker 1 Was there a chance that you were going to get that nominee or as an independent?

Speaker 2 Can you get been plotted with the Democratic Party and put in was there even a call about it or anything no you know i ran in 16 i ran against hillary clinton and i ran in 20.

Speaker 1 yeah i remember and i felt like you

Speaker 2 i felt like you didn't get treated fairly to be honest i didn't and that's what happens when you take on the establishment so what happened is we won the first three primaries and then um

Speaker 2 uh the establishment got very very nervous and they got there were a whole lot of candidates in the democratic primary and they said hey be a good idea if you all dropped out that joe biden be the one candidate people rallied around them and And is there a call that you get and it's like, you're not going to move forward?

Speaker 1 Is it just like news articles?

Speaker 1 How does the establishment?

Speaker 2 What happens is I won the popular vote in Iowa. I won the New Hampshire primary.
I won the Nevada primary, and those were the first three.

Speaker 2 And then front pages of the New York Times, Democratic establishment, very nervous. Bernie Standers could win the whole thing.
We were doing very well in the polls.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I think behind the scenes, people saw, you know, there were like 15 different candidates. And they were splitting up the vote.

Speaker 2 And that's how I was, I was not necessarily getting over 50%, I was getting more than other people. So I was on the way to victory.
And they said,

Speaker 2 look, Bernie shouldn't be the candidate for a variety of reasons. We don't want him the candidate.
Drop out. And then on one day, a lot of people, one or two days, a lot of people dropped out.

Speaker 2 It was Joe Biden and me. And Joe had a lot of support.
And all these people came behind them. And that's what happened.
Let me also say, you know, having said that,

Speaker 2 Biden is a friend of mine. I think he has done a very good job over the last three and a half years.
And I'm working very hard to see that Kommler is elected our next president.

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Speaker 1 Did you feel like

Speaker 1 did it seem it started to seem like people were losing faith in the media, right? And I feel like that that's had a huge effect on society.

Speaker 1 It's created a lot of opportunities for what are often labeled as conspiracy theories, but then often end up being truth just because, or not off, but yeah, often or end up being truths

Speaker 1 or having

Speaker 1 realness to them because

Speaker 1 the news media isn't even, you know, it's like they all just go down these same similar paths and it's not, it doesn't even feel real anymore.

Speaker 1 I mean, the fact that you and I are talking is wild, you know, it's like

Speaker 1 I fucking wouldn't talk to me, you know, but but you know, but the fact but look, the bad news, there's bad news and good news.

Speaker 2 The good news is you got a program and by millions of people to an India. Yeah.
And part of that is that people do not necessarily believe CBS, NBC, ABC, or even Fox or anybody else.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 so let me tell you what I think about that, because I think you're touching on an important issue. We talked about healthcare, you talk about media.
You have about eight large

Speaker 2 media conglomerates, you know, Comcast and all these guys.

Speaker 1 They're huge. Serious.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 1 They own, you know, people turn on their clear channel.

Speaker 2 You got it. You got it.
They're huge. They own, they don't own one station.
They own radio stations. They own TV stations.
They own movies, you know, producers.

Speaker 2 So these are owned by very large billionaires, you know,

Speaker 2 big companies owned by billionaires. And they will discuss issues from here to here.

Speaker 2 I gave you an example about Medicare for all. We should be having a tremendous discussion why we're the only country on earth that to guarantee healthcare.
It doesn't take place on television.

Speaker 2 We should be talking about massive income and wealth inequality. There are three people in America who want more wealth in the bottom half of American society.
Think that's appropriate?

Speaker 1 No, sir. Okay.
I think there should be a limit on how much a person can earn. Okay.
To be honest with you, there may be, you know,

Speaker 1 some millions, but I don't think it should be billions. Someone should.
I agree with you.

Speaker 2 I agree with you, actually. And I think most Americans would.

Speaker 2 When's the last time you've seen that discussion on NBC? It ain't going to take place.

Speaker 1 We have. But that's what the people want, though.

Speaker 2 Yes, that is exactly. That's why you're a success and why other people, you know, with very limited resources, if you you like, because you don't see that type of discussion.
I just did a poll.

Speaker 2 My campaign did a poll just on these issues.

Speaker 2 You know, talking about issues that working class people want and need that are almost never discussed in politics or in the corporate media. And the answer is people are hurting.
They want change.

Speaker 2 No one's talking about it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It's heartbreaking.
It's like.

Speaker 1 I don't know, the people don't even get thought of anymore, it feels like a lot of times.

Speaker 1 And here's the toughest part, I think, Bernie, is as a person who, you know, know, has felt like in their life, maybe their father died in a war, their grandfather died in a war, and they've been tried to pay their taxes and be a, you know, considerate person in their town or their country.

Speaker 1 After a while, those good people start, it starts to

Speaker 1 erode a little because they don't feel like, and they lose their sense of purpose. Man, when you're, you lose the fabric of your society, a lot of people, that's how they, they didn't even realize it.

Speaker 1 A lot of us don't even realize that's, we identify as an American.

Speaker 1 And when you realize, realize, well, America, it's nothing, but it's a, it's a shell LLC for fucking big corporations, then what am I?

Speaker 1 I'm just a, I'm just a idiot, you know, and you almost feel ashamed of yourself, you know, or you can, you know, anyway, just, I don't know, a lot of that stuff just,

Speaker 1 I just don't see how people think that that's good or how you're going to still be able to get people to buy in.

Speaker 2 Theo, I think you said it better than I did. I mean, I agree with Theo.
I think a lot of people are ashamed. They're given up.
They're hurting.

Speaker 2 Many of these people have fought and died or their families have fought and died in wars. And they're good people.
And maybe they're nurses and

Speaker 1 business people. Yeah, anything, crossing guard, male woman.

Speaker 2 Right, exactly. They believe in their community.
Yeah. And meanwhile, they're getting ripped off by people on top politically and economically.

Speaker 1 Well, even the radio, like you're saying, it's like you used to have like a newspaper and

Speaker 1 it meant something. Your community meant something.
It used to be that your grandpa worked at the factory and they made the table that you have in your home. And so everything had a story to it.

Speaker 1 There's some connection. And now it's like we're buying stuff from countries that they're making it.
They don't care. We're using it.
We don't care. There's no story.
Nobody has any like,

Speaker 1 there's no,

Speaker 1 there's no thread. You know, the thread just gets thin.

Speaker 2 That's a very profound point you just made.

Speaker 1 And so how do we get it back? You know, it ain't easy.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but I think.

Speaker 2 But I think you hit the nail on the head. People, you know, you're in, right now you're in Vermont, which is one of the smallest states in the country.
It's a very rural state. Beautiful.

Speaker 2 Burlington is the largest city with 40,000. I used to be mayor here, you know.
But you go into small towns. Everybody knew everybody.
Often they were dairy farmers. We had a lot of dairy farmers.

Speaker 2 People work really hard being a dairy farmer. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 I used to work at Coldstone Kramers for a while. So not the same, but I get it.

Speaker 2 Right, but I'm milking cows. you know, five o'clock in the morning on a cold winter day ain't easy work.
But there was a, everybody knew each other. Nobody cheated each other.

Speaker 2 You know, there was a sense of, and then you have town meetings once a year and people argue about the school budget and all that stuff.

Speaker 2 And we are losing that big time for a lot. Maybe next time we'll talk about that.
But

Speaker 2 we're losing that, as you indicated, for a lot of reasons. And if we don't get it back, I worry about the future of this country.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we can, that is kind of a bigger topic. I've heard you talk about the 32-hour work week, man.
It's intriguing. Anybody, second I heard that, I'm like, I'm in, you know?

Speaker 2 I tell you, it got a lot of response.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think there was a poll. I don't know if it was a news week.
I don't know where it was. That,

Speaker 1 yeah, the 32-hour work week. And one of the reasons behind it is why.

Speaker 2 Okay, here's why. All right.
Let me back it up a little bit. Okay.

Speaker 2 I'm going to ask you a question. Are you ready for a tough question?

Speaker 1 Let's do it.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 2 Over the last 50 years, five zero years,

Speaker 2 massive changes in technology, right? 50 years ago, they didn't have this stuff.

Speaker 2 Worker productivity has has gone way up, right? So you're a worker now playing with technology, machinery, whether it's a computer, whether it's factory technology.

Speaker 2 You're producing a lot more, correct?

Speaker 1 In terms of real you're producing more because you have machines that can help you.

Speaker 2 Got it. Okay.
Right. Much more, by the way.

Speaker 1 Right. So a machine can do the work of 30 men in a day.
You got it.

Speaker 2 Got it. Whatever it may be.
Okay.

Speaker 2 In terms.

Speaker 2 Despite all of that, worker, increased worker productivity,

Speaker 2 is the worker of today in real inflation accounted for dollars making more or less money than that worker was doing or a worker similar type worker 50 years ago?

Speaker 1 What's the answer?

Speaker 2 I would say less.

Speaker 1 So less based on inflation and everything. The workers making less now than they were then.

Speaker 2 In real dollars. Yeah, we call real dollars.
Inflation accounted for dollars. Real dollars, though, COVID.

Speaker 2 How insane is that if that worker is now producing so much more than if she did before?

Speaker 1 Oh, I see what you're saying. So now if a worker is operating a machine and that machine is doing the work of 20 workers, then why isn't there some benefit to the worker?

Speaker 2 You would think that that guy's making, well, we're just making more money, right? Hey, you're producing a lot more, yeah, or widgets, or whatever it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Speaker 2 okay, got it.

Speaker 2 Okay, make a must. Where did all that money come from? Well, who benefited from that? Oh, the dingo expired.
Oh, that same three to ton.

Speaker 2 There was a study

Speaker 2 that there was a 50 trillion

Speaker 2 untypical

Speaker 2 redistribution of wealth to a bottom 90 percent to the top one percent so getting back to the 32 hour work week it's a simple idea if you are a worker producing a hell of a lot more than was the case 50 years ago you should benefit from that increased technology and one of the breakout people is you mentioned a moment of living under a lot of stress right if you can lower that work rate without loss of pay right so you're saying that there needs to be some keepback to them because that's if everybody's earning more if the company's earning more yeah yeah some of the agree it's just scary man um

Speaker 1 i don't know yeah it's just scary um i want to get into uh oh wait but what about would you have to raise the pay of people then oh i guess you would because they're

Speaker 2 yeah uh you know what if you reduce what we've been doing here is reducing the work week Which is from 40 to 32, which by the way has not been changed since 1944.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and that's when people had to do crops and everything. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, people were just, yeah, people were snitting by lightning bug.

Speaker 2 So we are a much wealthier nation now, but I want that wealth to be distributed along with that.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Wideway.

Speaker 2 Yeah, come on, tell us. We're almost done.
Yep. Okay.

Speaker 1 Just one more issue I want to ask, and it'll be quick.

Speaker 1 Last question. If you were to look at, if there's somebody out there today who's like a guy who you were, who wanted to see change, who, you know, started protesting on campuses and

Speaker 1 got involved and became a mayor and wants to get into politics and really thinks that they can make a difference.

Speaker 1 What path do they need to try for themselves now with so much lobbying and stuff going on?

Speaker 2 Like, what would you tell them? All right, first of all,

Speaker 2 what you're involved in is that politics would change.

Speaker 2 And being an elected official is one way bringing about the chance to talk the other way. You know, Dr.
Martin Luther King Jr. was never elected anything, right?

Speaker 2 He had a profound impact on this country. Never elected anything.

Speaker 2 And you're seeing young people who are concerned about climate change on campuses, a little bit more. So go with your passions.

Speaker 2 Your passion may be different than mine. What's your issue?

Speaker 1 I don't this.

Speaker 2 So work on that issue, read people, educate, organize, read people. And if you then decide, hey, you make a lawyer up to the state legislature.
Let me log around for times. I want to get my

Speaker 2 hands dirty in politics.

Speaker 2 Look. But first of all, don't do it just because I want to get elected.
That's bad, right? Do it it because you believe in so it. And getting elected will help you do it fine.

Speaker 2 If not, you could do it in other ways. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Bernie Sanders, thank you so much for your time, man.

Speaker 2 Thank you very much. Let me just say this.
Congratulations on your programs.

Speaker 2 And what programs like this do, I'm on TV a lot. You know, I get seven seconds to make a point.
Can't make it seven seconds.

Speaker 2 So we argue you can have a serious discussion about serious issues is really great. I thank you for the opportunity and thank you for what you're doing.

Speaker 1 Thank you. I've always been a proponent and thank you for just being an outspoken person who believes in things and moves forward with those beliefs.

Speaker 3 Now I'm just floating on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves.

Speaker 3 For 50 years now, hip-hop has been a reflection of culture and society. That includes stories of struggle and pain, social injustice, racial inequality, and marginalization of communities.

Speaker 3 Today, we confront a healthcare system that has been rigged against all of us. Hospitals force patients to sign contracts for service without ever showing us actual pricing.

Speaker 3 Stifling competition, overcharging without accountability.

Speaker 3 And if we can't pay, these same contracts allow them to take everything we own, creating so much fear that millions and millions of Americans refuse to enter a hospital, putting our health and our lives at stake.

Speaker 3 This is an American humanitarian crisis. We love our nurses and we need our doctors.
But hospitals and insurers rigging a system to make profits off of people that's in struggle is unforgivable.

Speaker 3 We demand prices and transparency in health care. Power to the patients.