E524 Sen. Bernie Sanders

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And thank you so much for supporting live comedy and our show. Today's episode was filmed at the Venetian Soda and Cocktail Lounge in Burlington, Vermont.
And we want to thank them for hosting us and allowing us in their beautiful space. And our guest, he's a United States Senator from Vermont.
He's an independent, though he's been friendly with the Democratic Party over the years. He's been a congressman, a senator, a presidential candidate, and he's one of the biggest lightning rods in American politics.
At the very end of the interview,

we did experience some difficulties with our microphones, so we apologize for the change

in sound there. We're grateful to welcome today's guest, Senator Bernie Sanders.

Shine that light on me.

I'll sit and tell you my stories.

Shine on me.

And I will find a song I've been singing so do you uh you travel the country doing these things yeah mostly i travel doing a stand-up comedy but about six years ago i started doing podcasting just in my kitchen at home and um mostly was just talking about like

i've been in recovery for years so mostly just talking about that kind of stuff and like yeah

alcohol and drugs and intimacy disorders so a lot of that kind of stuff and then um then we started

having guests after about two years and um went on joe rogan a few times and that helped boost

the steam you know and um yeah it's been surprising since then, you know?

Congratulations.

Thanks.

It's made me grow up some, which is a blessing and a curse, you know?

But yeah, and I just went to the Grateful Dead the other day with my brother.

So pretty cool.

You ever see the Grateful Dead?

No.

You remember that?

What was the first concert you ever went to a name you probably wouldn't know you ever hear pete seager i've heard of bob seager yeah i think that there's some little i was kind of into folk music more than that billy strings have you heard of him yep yeah he's awesome he's one of my favorites pete seager that's him right there That's good. That was fast.
Yeah. He's awesome.
He's one of my favorites. Pete Seeger, that's him right there.
That's God. That was fast.
Yeah. He's an interesting guy.
And there's another guy who died a long time ago. I don't know if you know his name.
Woody Guthrie. Is that name? Woody Guthrie.
I've heard of him. Yeah.
Yeah. And actually his granddaughter helped me out during my campaigns.
He wrote a lot during the Great Depression. So he went around the hobo camps, talked to poor people, you know.
Wow. And he wrote songs.
You ever hear the song, This Land Is Your Land Is? That's his song. Oh, wow.
I didn't even think somebody wrote that. No, he was a great songwriter and a great singer.
Woody Guthrie. Woody Gut three i'm gonna have to tap into some of his stuff yeah my brother and i went um you have a brother you have a brother i've been older brother yeah you guys ever go to a concert together no i don't think we he lives in oxford england yeah it's fancy over there it is well there but this yeah have you ever been to England? Yeah.
And they have this old university called Oxford university,

which is one of the great universities in the world.

Yeah.

You got,

I stayed in a house.

God,

like it was 1400 to 1300.

Who the hell knows?

I mean,

really.

Yeah.

It goes way,

way back.

Oh yeah.

The plum.

Yeah.

You got to bring your own plum and I'm sure.

Well,

they've advanced a little bit,

but Bernie Sanders, thank you so much for joining us today. Great to be with you, Theo.
I really appreciate it. Whenever you started in politics, I'm sure that there was like a real idea of like one person can really affect change, right? Do you think that that's still possible today with like a lot of the lobbies and stuff that they have that goes on? Well, I think one of the points I think everybody knows is you have a government dominated by big money interests, right? That's no great secret.
So you have these billionaires now and they're super PACs. If you're a billionaire, you can contribute hundreds of millions of dollars to elect people, to feed people.
If you're a large corporation or you represent the pharmaceutical industry,

do you know how many lobbyists there are in Washington DC representing the big drug companies? Take a wild and crazy guess. 2,000.
You got it. That's a pretty good guess.
About 1,800. Wow.
So there are 100 members of the Senate and 435 members of the House. Got it? 535.
and you got 1800 lobbyists.

Well-paid former leaders of the Democratic Party, leaders of the Republican Party. They're there to say, hey, Congress, do everything you can to make sure we make as much money as possible.
And who gives a damn whether people can afford the prescription drugs they need. So that's power.
So you have a whole other drug government almost going on. Absolutely.
That's even bigger than our own government.

Numbers wise.

Well, we can define what we mean by bigger.

That's fair.

But if you look at Wall Street, the power of Wall Street,

the drug companies, the insurance companies,

the fossil fuel industry,

you have enormous wealth, enormous power.

And if your question is,

is it government that tells them what to do or they tell what the government to do? More the latter. They tell the government what to do.
Very powerful. Does it feel like that's changed over your time in politics or has it always been that way? I think to some degree, you know, money talks, right? No great secret.
That's always been the case. It's worse now and I I'll tell you why.
As a result of this Citizens United Supreme Court decision, you familiar with that? So people brought action. Billionaires really brought action.
They said, hey, it's undemocratic. You're taking away my freedom of speech, right? I have a First Amendment right.
We're on TV now. You could say whatever you want to say, and I'm a billionaire, and I want to spend unlimited sums of money to defeat this candidate or support this candidate, and you have laws on the books now which restrict my freedom to buy the election.
You understand what I'm saying? 100%. Okay.
And the Supreme Court said, well, guys, you're right. You're billionaires.
You should be able to spend as much money as you want to buy elections. And that's what you have.
So right now, this is literally the truth. You have super PACs where billionaires can put unlimited amounts of money, hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars to defeat people they don't like or to support people they do like.
That's power. And that is a corruption of what democracy is supposed to be.
Look, you and I can disagree on an issue, right? 10 people. We argue it out.
We vote. I get the majority.
You get the majority. Somebody wins, somebody loses.
I don't think billionaires should be able to buy elections. And I think most people think that.
Most people are like, why are corporations or companies allowed to give money to candidates and influence elections, right? Almost every person I know says that that should be no. Whose responsibility is it to make sure it doesn't happen? Is it ours or is it the politicians? Well, what happened is there were laws put in place, not as strong as I would like, which did limit the power of big money, okay? And what that Supreme Court decision said is what Congress did was unconstitutional,

denied big money, their freedom of speech.

If you're a billionaire, you have freedom of speech.

That means you can run ads all over the day and beat Bernie Sanders, beat anybody.

And that's what happened.

So what we have got to do now is once again, pass legislation that will do that.

Are there politicians that aren't viable, kind of? Or aren't influenced by lobbyists? Of course there are. There are.
There are some very good people. But many people, look, just throw out an example.
You're running for election, okay? Your opponent is spending millions of dollars. These TV ads are up there, all right? You think going to spend a stand up to powerful special interests who say you know the old listen i like you but you're going to take that position on that issue i got to be running millions of dollars of ads against you what do you think you're going to do if you want to get elected you could say well go to hell i'm going to do it anyhow and many do or you run the risk of you know seeing that kind of money uh come against you or you then have to find a lobbyist that has an interest of yours and you have to try and fight back which is a pretty pathetic thing right right so to some degree what you have right now it's a funny kind of thing it's let's say you were running against me it's not you against me it's your moneyed interest versus my moneyed interest that's what super PACs are.
Now, corporations cannot directly contribute to your campaign, but big money interests, billionaires, can contribute to a super PAC. So you have all these.
I would say to people who watch the show here, look at the ads that are on television. They'll be underneath it.
You'll see paid for by supporters of the American way of life or whatever the hell it is. Understand that in most cases, these are billionaires putting money into a candidate.
So the super PAC is kind of the loophole. Yep.
Is how they do it. So it's not directly from them.
Exactly. There are limits.
All right. You wanted to contribute to my campaign.
They're pretty stringent limits. You can't contribute.
I think it's, I don't know, it's 5,000 bucks. Through a super PAC, you can contribute $100 million.
Wow. That's a big issue.
We don't talk about it enough. And then you can understand that if you're an ordinary person, who's going to listen to your interests, your needs, right? When billionaires are putting in this kind of money.
Right. If the best I can help you out with is 5,000 bucks, you might show up and shake my shake my hand but when something really when the rickshaw hits the road or whatever you're gonna be working for the big dogs for the cash you're gonna that's and that's the way the system works and and how do we change that well first of all this campaign finance reform is a big deal just this one issue and i'm glad you raised it we got to do away for citizens you know we have to have restrictions.
When I ran for president, the average contribution was $27, roughly speaking. And we've got millions of people to contribute.
So I think there has to be a real stringent limit on the amount of money that any individual can put into the political process. And I also believe that we should move to what we call public funding of elections.
You're a candidate. You want to run for governor.
You want to run for senator. If you show that you have a certain amount of support, you got X number of thousands of people willing to put $5 into your campaign, you can be able to get public funding.
And there's a limit at how much you can spend. These are not radical ideas.
They exist in many countries around the world, actually. Yeah, it's pretty normal.
Do you think that our election process is still democratic? Do you think it's still... Yes and no.
I mean, you want to run for office. Can you? Yeah, you can.
You've got a certain number of signatures. But if you're going to win, and I have 10 times more money than you do, I will beat you 95% of the time.
I mean, that's a fact, right?

Maybe if you're really an exceptional candidate and I'm a real idiot, you will beat me once in a while. But by and large, the money people will win.
So if you're asking me, are we a democracy? In one sense, we are. All right.
You can run for office. You can raise your issues.
On the other hand, in terms of who has the real power, money people do. And I use the term oligarchy.
And oligarchy is a society where small numbers of very wealthy people control the economic and political life of the country. I think we are moving rapidly in that direction.
Yeah, I feel like it's, to me, it feels like an almost privatized communism in a way. Right.
That's a very good point. It's a very good, it's an interesting way of looking of looking at it yeah and i don't know exactly sometimes everything and what communism is and what socialism is but sometimes that's how it feels um well let me give you an example let me pick can i pick up on your for sure okay i believe we are the only nation on earth major nation wealthy nation that does not guarantee health care to all people okay in your car, go 50 miles where you are sitting right now in Burlington, Vermont.

You have a terrible automobile accident.

You're in the hospital for a month in Canada.

You know what the bill is when you come out?

Zero.

Nothing.

Okay.

You know how much the Canadians spend per person on health care compared to us?

One half as much.

They spend half as much.

You don't take out your wallet.

If you get sick, you're the doctor that you want.

I believe in that type of system.

They guarantee healthcare to all of their people.

It's publicly funded the way we fund police departments,

fire departments, and libraries.

You got to pay taxes for it.

But at the end of the day, it is less expensive for your healthcare.

You follow what I'm saying? Yeah. Okay.
Yeah, Cause you're a, you're a proponent for healthcare for all, right? And yes. And you always have been.
And, but how the system seemed, that system seems so rigged because you have, you have like one of the number one causes of bankruptcy in America is medical debt, right? Yes. Unbelievable.
Like people can't, you know, people, they go in, they don't even know the cost. They sign an agreement that they're going to be billed later, right? It's like, and then they get the bill and it's astronomical and they spend the rest of their life literally a slave to the healthcare system or to the medical billing system or the, you know, dealing with their insurance and not to mention they're sick.
So the, the added stress of that, um, it just feels like, yeah, like something so much better could be done. You know, that is so pathetic and so sick and so cruel.
I mean, we did a hearing on this and roughly speaking, and I know the viewers will think this is like hard to believe half of the people who are dealing with cancer now cancer is a terrible disease right your point 100 you're struggling for your life right yeah maybe you make it maybe you don't you got radiation chemotherapy bad stuff right half the people who get cancer treatment either end up in bankruptcy or utilizing all of the financial resources of the family. They're depleted.
They're broke. So imagine that.
You go into the hospital. Doctors are still, oh, sorry, you've got cancer.
Terrible. You're worried to death, right? Your friends, your family are worried.
And then on top of that, what are you worried about? Oh, my God. What, am I going to have to sell my house? Am I going to have to go bankrupt in order to pay medical bills.
That is insane. And Ed, if you're trying to deal with cancer, then you got to worry about financial stress.
Think it's going to make your condition any better? No, the worst. You spend half your day.
You can't even, in the insurance companies, it's all a rigmarole. It's constant stress.
But how is it set up like that? What is the gimmick between insurers and the hospital? That's the thing I don't know. What's going on? Take it a step.
Let's take a step further. Let me talk about the Canadian system.
Simple system. You pay taxes.
And progressive, the more you make, the more you pay. But everyone pays taxes.
All right. End result is you walk into the hospital, you sign your name, you have all the treatment you need.
And it's good quality healthcare. You don't have to argue with insurance companies.
You get the care that the doctors think you need. End of discussion.
And in my view, that's the way it should be. We spend, it's not just that the insurance companies make huge profits.
They do. Not just they pay their CEOs exorbitant salaries, which they do.
Everybody

has got to fill out a thousand different forms, right? Goes crazy. Filling out forms to see what you're entitled to, what you're not entitled to, deductibles, right? Yeah, the bureaucracy.
It's ridiculous. Is that called bureaucracy? Yeah.
Yeah, that's exactly what it is. All right.
So look, you may have health insurance, but I just talked to a person the other day. We had a meeting.
You know what their deductible was?

$13,000.

What does that mean?

It means that the first $13,000 of illness, they got to pay out of their own pocket. How many people can make $13,000? So if you get hit by a truck and you earn up a million dollar bill, yeah, the insurance companies will kick in, presumably.
All right. So the whole idea that healthcare in America, unlike every other major country, all right, go to Europe, go to Canada, go to many Latin American countries, it is a bloody right, not a privilege.
And that's what I think it should be. So we have a system that works very well for the insurance companies and the drug companies.
In some cases, you're going to pay 10 times more for medication in America than they do in other countries. That's a whole other story we're trying to deal with right now.
But it's a corrupt system benefiting the people who own it, not the ordinary American. You go out on the street, go out on the street, say to people, do you think healthcare is a human right? All people in America should have it.
Yeah, we do. That's what I'm fighting for.
And who are the lobbyists that are against that then? What do you think? Guys from the insurance companies and the drug companies. Okay, and then what politicians work with those? Why don't we know what politicians are cheating us so that we don't have them in anymore? All right, you're a smart guy.
You tell me, how often have you heard a discussion in this country about how broken the healthcare system is and comparing it to other countries? A lot. All right.
You've heard a lot about this? Well, I mean, I think I hear a lot about, I look into it a lot. You look into it, but how many people even know that we are the only major country on earth not to guarantee healthcare to all people? So when people say, oh, Bernie Sanders is a radical idea.
He thinks everybody should have healthcare. Really? That exists in Canada.
It's in France, in England, in Denmark, in Sweden, in every bloody country on earth, virtually rich country. So it's not a radical.
Even Mars, I heard they have healthcare there now. I wouldn't be surprised.
Now, some people would say that the argument against that would be that then there's less personal responsibility to take care of yourself, right? But do you... Really? But that would be in other countries anyway, right? That would be anywhere.
If, God forbid, you or I came down with a serious illness, am I going to blame you for coming down with cancer? I mean, is that a personal responsibility? That's a good point. Yeah, probably not.
That might just be kind of a ghost of an argument. And here's, but to pick up on that point,

what should one of the priorities

of a good healthcare system be?

It should be to try to keep people healthy.

So it should encourage people to have good diet,

to do exercise, to stay away from addictive stuff, right?

Do we do a particularly good job on that?

Not so much.

Because where do the insurance companies make their money?

Hey, if you're really sick, pretty good. Yeah.
We keep you healthy. Not so much.
Are they one of the largest lobbyist groups? Yep. Wow.
Very, very. They're huge.
I mean, we started this discussion. You talk about privatized communism, whatever the expression you used.
I believe that Medicare is the health insurance program for the elderly. Medicaid is for lower income people.
I think we should combine all these and guarantee health care to all people. But your point is that in the private sector, we are moving to a monopoly.
And it's true. People like UnitedHealth, unbelievable.
So UnitedHealth, to the best of my knowledge, has under contract or hires 10% of the doctors in America. Got that? One insurance company.
10% of the doctors. And so how would you even start to undo something like that? Like what's a realistic path to reform, I guess? Thanks.
Great question. Because I wrote the bill, I know the answer.

Okay.

Right now, you have Medicare, which is a very popular program.

It's life-saving to many elderly people.

That was developed in the 1960s by President Lyndon Johnson.

Okay, very popular program.

You've got Medicaid for the lower-income people, also a popular program.

What I would do is, over a four-year period, take Medicare. First thing you do is expand Medicare because Medicare does not now cover dental, hearing, or vision.
A lot of people can't afford to go to a dentist. Got me? Yeah.
Okay, you expand it. And then you say right now, to be eligible for Medicare, you've got to be 65 years of age.

First year, lower to 55.

So you have 57.

Congratulations.

You don't have to worry about whether you have insurance on your job.

You want to hear something else crazy about the private insurance system.

You work for a big corporation, okay?

They give you good health insurance.

He works for McDonald's, virtually nothing.

That's pretty crazy. Where you work determines the kind of health care you get.
Anyhow, so we go from 65 down to 55. 55 next year down to 45.
45 to 35, fourth year you cover everybody. Gradual absorption.
So you have a Medicare system that covers all people. You no longer have to pay any more deductibles or co-payments, no more premiums.
You get your healthcare because you're an American citizen. Will your taxes go up? They may.
Will it be less than what you pay right now in private insurance? Yes, it will be. It's a good deal.
Can we afford that as a country, you think? Sure. Yeah? We are now spending over $ four trillion dollars on health care we spend double here's another point to be made we spend twice as much per person on health care as any other country because it's designed to make money for the insurance companies and drug companies wait so explain it to me so we spend twice as much on health care we are spending right now you know as any other country yes per person yes but we're not but the money isn't going towards them getting so we'd almost save the money just by you got it all right here example is that true yes it's true check it out it is chairman of the bloody committee yes it is true all right bloody literally people are all right if i buy a car morrow for 80 you buy a car for $40,000.
What is the presumption? Should my car be a better car than yours? Yes. Okay.
I'm spending twice as much, all right? But I got a really much great better car than you have. All right.
We are spending per person, per person, over $13,000. Spending $13,000 on you, $13,000 on me, $13,000 on a five-year-old, $13,000 on a 90-year-old.
$13,000 per person, over $4 trillion nationally. Canadians are spending about half of that per person.
And they're taking care of everybody. Yes.
And the British are spending less than that. Other countries, a little bit less.
But does that affect us with the population number that we have? No, it doesn't matter. I mean, per person.
Got it. Okay.
I'm not talking about in gross, per person. How do you stop hospitals from overcharging? That's part of it.
It's a corrupt system. If they know that the government's going to pick up the tab.
Good. Very good question.
The answer is what they do. And I mean, it's not like we're inventing something.
Other countries do it. What they say to hospitals is, look, you're not going to be charging Theo when he's in the hospital.
You're not going to be charging him a nickel. But we know, roughly speaking, in a year, what you are going to be.
You need a certain number of doctors and radiologists and nurses and all that stuff. Here is your budget.
It's like a police department. Here's your budget in a year.
You need more, maybe we'll come up with more. You get what we call a global budget.
It's like the Dodgers or something. But you got a global budget.
Right, you got a budget. And you take care of all the needs.
It's not per person. You get it.
And what you do there, we spend as a nation, one of the other insanities of this healthcare system, we spend hundreds of billions of dollars on billing. You know what I mean by that? Medical billing, yeah.
All right, so I'm the insurance companies. First of all, you got to fill out forms.
I hire people who are not doctors or nurses, right? They just bill. Oh, yeah.
All right, you got bill collectors. You go to a hospital, go down to base and they got 100 well depending on the size of the hospital dozens and dozen people they don't see a patient they're just filling out forms yeah half the philippines is people just doing medical billing over the phone you know well there are countries where you show your card and that's the end of the discussion but we waste hundreds of billions of dollars just on billing people and there there's another issue I want to discuss.
Life expectancy. What do we know about life expectancy? We're getting pretty long in the tooth.
Nope. We're getting, we're not living long.
Nope. Compared to whom? Compared to probably Vietnam.
I'm sure maybe. All right.
But we are the richest country on earth. Do we live longer lives than other people? No, we don't.
We do not. In fact, we're pretty far down the list.
Why is that? Well, I mean, I think it could be that we're not taking as good care of ourselves. Okay.
And I think it could be that, yeah, that we don't have as good a healthcare.

That's right.

All right.

I think that's two pretty,

I think that's two out of three.

All right.

Now here,

there are two facts.

We country,

Japan,

other countries will live four or five years,

six years longer than we do.

That's a lot.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So they'll live,

I forgot what it is.

Like 8% or something.

Yeah.

Right.

It's a lot. You know what I mean? Yeah.
So they'll live, I forgot what it is. Like 8% or something.
Yeah, right. It's a lot.
But here's another fact that is really unbelievable. It's not just that we live shorter lives despite spending so much on healthcare.
The gap between the 1% and the working class is 10 years. If you're rich, you'll live as long as people in other countries.
You have a long life, in the 80s or whatever it is. If you're working class, you're going to live 10 years younger.
How does that happen, do you think? Wow. Because just stress, burnout? Man, all right.
I'm going to sign you up there. You got it.
Look, I think I like a lot of the things that you think about. Let's deal with the issue of stress.
Okay. Yes, you're right.
It is twofold, it seems to me. Number one is if you're rich, you go to any doctor you want.
When you want it, get paid for all the drugs you need, right? Yeah. All right, that's a real advantage.
But above and beyond that, working class people live under enormous stress, right? And that takes a toll on you. It takes a toll on you physically and mentally.
And that is, we have parts of this country where life expectancy is actually in decline. Got it? People are living shorter lives.
Because of the stress. Because of the stress.
And with that stress and the hopelessness, they turn to drugs, they turn to alcohol, they turn to suicide. Yeah.
All right? Bad stuff. Oh, yeah.
yeah i think those are things that um yeah they don't even take those factors into consideration when they're making all of these you know you call to get your medical bill it's a nightmare it's like it's it's a fight you almost want to this is crazy there's been times when i've been like i would rather take my own life than sit here and make another fucking call and i'm not even sick. I'm just somebody trying to get to the bottom of the- All right.
And why does that happen? Because it's loopholes. They don't want you to get paid.
You got it. Not that hard.
Look, you pay me money through insurance, right? So you're sick. I'm supposed to pay your bills, right? If I drive you crazy, you're going to say,

screw it. I'll with it.
I'll pay the goddamn thing myself. It's not worth it.
Good. I'm the insurance company.
Right on, man. That's exactly what I wanted.
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shopify.com slash Theo. So then how do we change that as a system? What do we do? Because it feels like we're electing people that have this in our best interest.
If that's the number one cause of bankruptcy is medical billing, how do our politicians not see that this is extremely important and that things need to be different? Like, what are they lobbying so powerful with? I know it's money, but it's like, I just can't imagine that people wouldn't see the good, the value and what is right. Well, you know, it's all that I can tell you is money talks to a large degree.
And it's not to suggest that, you know, members of Congress are evil or terrible people that want people to suffer. They don't.
But you have a system which almost says, oh, you can't even think about guaranteeing health care to all people. Oh, my God.
What kind of, you're a far leftist. Yeah.
You're a communist man. What are you? you don't want to take on the insurance companies hard-working people that you know so it almost you're not even allowed to talk about those issues and and meanwhile we're the only country that doesn't guarantee health care yeah i mean my one caveat i don't know exactly what caveat means but i think my one you know left turn on it would be yeah how much how much responsibility then do people, are people going to just have totally less responsibility and just be taking pills? I don't know.
Maybe that's just a crazy thought. But if it's not happening in other countries, then maybe that's a good example that it wouldn't happen here.
It is an issue in other countries. For example, you're a lonely older person.
Maybe you're living by yourself. I'm feeling lonely.
Maybe I'll go to the doctor when I'm not really sick. Will people abuse it? Yeah.
So what? I mean, it happens and you try to discourage that. So no system is perfect.
But the bottom line as Americans, we have to answer a very simple question. Is healthcare a right of all people,

whether you're rich, poor, medium, whatever you are? I think the answer is yes. Well, I think especially when you start to look at other places that we spend our money, it would be very hard not to say this, we should certainly spend it there first.
It's just fucking unbelievable that we're this powerful of a country and we don't have a, like we lost our emotional-

That's a good point. And I'll tell you something else.
Let me get off of healthcare for a second. Okay.
Well, before we get off, I want to, so I know that, um, you guys have a bill, uh, cause I have a, uh, a group that I've worked with, done volunteer stuff with called power to the patients. Right.
And it it's notating the prices of, like, say you get an MRI, like the hospital now has to let you know that the MRI is $700. So you can call the hospital down the street and see that there it's $550.
So you can make a choice. So you know, upfront, so you're not getting a $10,000 bill later on.
You got it. It's called the transparency bill.
Transparency bill. And is it passed yet or no? No, it has not.
I'm working with it with a guy named Senator Braun from Indiana. Who's a Republican.
Good guy. And look, it's exactly the issue.
People walk into an emergency room. They walk into a hospital.
Do you have any idea? You know, here, Theo, this is what we're going to do for you. Blah, blah, blah, blah.
And you come out and you drop dead because you see a bill of tens of thousands of dollars, right?

That's the crazy part.

I mean, people go in and surgery.

They come out hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt?

It's crazy.

It is.

It's insane.

All right.

And the point is, look, I should have the right to know.

You want to hear?

You think it's crazy?

Let me tell you how crazy. It's even crazier than you think it is.
Okay. You have Blue Cross insurance.
I have another insurance company, same hospital. You go and get an MRI.
Your insurance company will pay $500. My insurance company pays $700.
So even in the same hospital for the same treatment, the price is different, not to mention different hospitals.

Yeah.

Well, it's just wild that they can do that.

It's almost like I'm going to go to the grocery store.

I'm going to get an apple, right?

I'm going to eat it.

And then after I eat it, you're going to tell me how much it costs.

You got it.

And they're like, it's $400.

You're like, is it from the Garden of Eden?

You know, like, where is this?

But it's even worse.

You're exactly right.

But it's even worse because you had to go to the hospital.

Right.

Right.

Yes.

Thank you. You're like, is it from the Garden of Eden? You know, like- But it's even worse.
You're exactly right. But it's even worse because you had to go to the hospital.
Right, right. Yes, it wasn't a choice that you made.
I know you guys had launched an investigation, even because this is kind of current about Ozempic, right? And the cost of Ozempic in different countries. Because I was dating a girl, or not dating, but we met up a couple of times at night or whatever.
And it's like, she was leaving one morning to drive to Mexico to get Ozempic. And I'm like, what are you, you're just driving in the middle of the, you know, at 5am to go to what's going on.
And she's like, well, it's just way cheaper there. And I'm like, but is it as regulated? You know, I don't know, but I know that in some countries, um, the prices on it are so different.
Like in Canada, it's $150 something.

Got it.

And in America, it's 700 and something.

Close to a thousand.

It's close to a thousand dollars for a diabetes medication.

I know some people use it for, you know,

kind of weight loss or look the way they want,

spring break or whatever.

But that's crazy.

Why is it that?

Why isn't it just the same?

Is it because they know they can charge us more because we have more money? That's half of it, but only half of it. That's a great question.
Thanks for asking it. All right.
That's what my committee deals with every day. We've had, by the way, some success in the last few years.
And the Biden people have done a good job on this. All right.
Why is it that, I want to make sure I'm right here. Well, certainly in Canada, it's about 150 bucks for a Zempic.
Here it's 900, close to a thousand. Why is that? What the Canadians do and what countries around the world do, what makes common sense, they purchase a lot of the drug, right? All right.
So they sit down with the drug companies. They said, look, we have hundreds of thousands of people who are going to use your drug.
We're going to sit down and we're going to negotiate a price, right? Right. Of course, certainly after a few months, you should be able to see the averages and make a good business choice.
Yeah. I mean, if you're a businessman and you're buying something from me, you're buying thousands of items, I'm going to have to give you a discount if I want your business, right? Certainly.
That's the way the business works. So that's what every country on earth does.
They sit down with the drug companies. Some do it more stringently than others.
Up until very, very recently, there have been no requirements, zero, for the drug companies to negotiate anything. So they come in and they say they have the board.
What do you think we can get, Harry? Sitting around their board of directors. Well, gee, I think you can get $10,000 a year.
No, I think you can go high. They can get $20,000.
Look, we get what the market will bear. The government has no power.
Charge them anything you want. That's what they do.
So you got now, it's not just Ozempic, in which we pay in some cases 15 times more than European countries. It's all kinds of drugs.
So the answer is, the answer to your question is, up until recently, and the Biden administration has done a good job of this, there have been no capabilities of the government, Medicare, anybody else, to negotiate prices. They charge you anything they want and as much as they possibly can.
What we did is part of a bill called the Inflation Reduction Act, stupid title to the bill, but that's what it was, finally have that the drug companies are going to have to sit down with Medicare and negotiate prices. They're going to be announcing some interesting results pretty soon.
So for the first time, there is the beginning of negotiating prices and it will lower prices. Second of all, what we've done on my committee, a lot of people have asthma and they use inhalers.
I don't know if you know anybody who uses an asthma inhaler. Yeah.
All right. 10 times more expensive than the United States.
Well, we kind of shamed some of the big companies. They lowered it down to, some of them, to $35.
So making some progress on lowering the cost of prescription drugs. But to answer your question, up until a couple of years ago, drug companies could charge any price they wanted for any reason.
And now, and that could be changing with the Inflation Act? Yeah, Inflation Reduction Act. What it basically says is the 10 top selling drugs selling drugs they're gonna have to come then and sit down and negotiate with medicare price that is by the way what the veterans administration does the va in america does a good job yeah they don't pay outrageous prices they negotiate and that's what medicare is beginning to do yeah if you can't breathe i mean yeah you're almost a fish if you can't breathe, you know? Let's talk about some politics.
Oh, wait. And so, and the price and the price transparency that's happening now, like people have to show their prices or they don't.
No, they don't. We still have them pass that bill.
Okay. Do you think it's going to happen? It's a popular bill.
I think we have a good shot to get it done. Yeah.
That's cool. Yeah, man.
It makes me just sick because somebody's already sick and you know they're sick. Like if it were your family, remember what you would, you want them to just sit there and just be angry.
They're on the phone every day. Then they don't have any energy for their own family.
It's just- You're absolutely right. I just don't, I just can't imagine choosing, especially when you're already making a ton of money, choosing to make a little more money, what do you need?

Well, now you're raising even another issue.

What do you need?

You're talking about corporate greed here, but that's another issue.

Yeah, I know you hate it.

We all hate it.

I think America's at the point where the screw has been turned so fucking tight

that I think, yeah, it starts to create radicalization,

starts to create a lot of stuff. Let's talk about the election coming up right now or just the current candidacy.
I wanted in 2020, I believe that's when you ran, I wanted you and Donald Trump to be on the same ticket, right? That was a thought that I had because in my mind, I'm just a regular guy. I don't know a ton about politics, right?

I felt both y'all were outliers, right?

That's how it seemed to me.

These guys are both outliers.

They're both different but seem to be doing their own thing.

You've been outspoken against Trump, right?

Do you think he's not?

Is he doing his own thing or is he? Look, i will give trump credit okay he does his own thing okay he's a very different type of politician and that's clear but this is what i do think to you while i respect somebody who has the guts to do their own thing and be i very much a non-trad politician, which is what he is. Here's the facts.
He lies all the time. And you know, I got four kids and I got seven grandchildren and we really have to ask ourselves whether the guy who is the leader of the country, whether that's the kind of example that we want.
So I have a lot of friends in politics who differ with me, more conservative they're not liars we disagree so you and i disagree on something's fine so what it's called american democracy yeah it used to be fine that's right all right but trump really is i use the word pathological he lies is every when you see him i tell them every not everything but a lot of lies okay and i think that's we can't have that uh you can't have that. When he was in the private sector before he became involved in politics, he was sued, his companies were sued 4,000 times.
And I just, above and beyond his political views, which I disagree with. But then those you can discuss, I don't think you want somebody leading this country who is shady.
So you're saying he doesn't set the best example of- Exactly. Look, you've got kids.
Do you have any kids? I don't have any yet. All right.
All right. Well, I hope you do.
And you want kids to be honest, right? Yeah. You don't want them to be bullies and picking on the weak.
And so that from a character point of view, I don't like. But also, let me give another example.
I happen to believe, I don't know what your views are, that women have a right to control their own bodies. All right.
I don't want, as a man, somebody saying, oh, Bernie, you know, you can't have a vasectomy. You can't do this.
My business, not the government's. And Trump does not hold that view.
I happen to believe strongly that climate change is real. We got the, you know, just a week or two ago- Yeah, I saw your podcast with Bill, Bill, Billenkov.
Bill McKibben, of course. I've known Bill McKibben.
Yeah. Yeah.
And Bill is- Yeah, I wanted to, I want to get to speak to him. He seems really interesting.
Smart guy. Is he? I've known him for years.
Yeah, because I want to learn more about, you know, you just always hear about climate change. And so, yeah, I want to learn more about it.
Good.

And I hope you do. And I'm sure Bill would be happy to go on the show with you.
That'd be cool. You know, if you wanted, I can give him a call.
Awesome. In all of the scientists agree, when you put carbon into the atmosphere, it creates a ceiling there.
The earth warms up. And then because of the earth warming up,

you have extreme weather disturbances.

Like, you know, you come from Louisiana, do you?

Oh, yeah.

We're sinking.

You've seen the terrible floods there.

We've had them here in Vermont.

Yeah, they have in Savannah right now going on.

Right.

That's right.

You know, floods the likes of which we've never seen.

You've seen drought.

You know, in Saudi Arabia,

temperature reached 125 degrees,

which people are dying by the hundreds.

So Trump does not believe that climate change is real.

And if he becomes president,

that means not only will the United States,

the whole world will give up.

And I don't know what this planet is going to look like

in, you know, 10, 15 years.

And do you say that because America is really the leader of the forefront of looking out for climate change? We're the largest economy in the world. Right.
China is a bigger polluter than we are right now. Oh yeah, dude.
They all smoke too. A lot of Chinese people.
Yeah. That kid that smokes on that bicycle or whatever.
He smoked like 11 cigarettes. But if we were, if we say, Hey, the hell with it, that other countries are going to, because it's a global problem.
Right, then everybody's going to be like, oh, screw it. You got everybody backs off.
And then I don't know what this planet, you talk about floods, it's going to get worse and worse. Heat waves, worse.
Drought, worse. Migrations.
There are millions, hundreds of millions of people, little farmers in poor countries. They can't farm anymore.
Yeah. Okay.
So I disagree with Trump on on that so those are some of the reasons why you know i'm strongly against those are important issues you know i certainly yeah and i don't think every yeah it's like everybody can have their own thoughts on different issues and um do you see why people like him i do you know because he's very disarming he gets up there he says whatever the hell he wants yeah he is Yeah. He doesn't seem like he's by the book.
That was a thing. He is not by the book.
Right. And so that's something, the same as you.
It's like he's speaking for, it feels like they're speaking for themselves, right? Whether you agree with maybe what they believe, they believe what they're saying. And that I think comes through.
I think you're right. Clearly to people.
I think, you know, he's certainly unusual. Gets up there and he rants and he does his thing.
And he's not necessarily, I'm sure his advisors go crazy. But he's not reading off.
Kid Rock is one of his advisors. And look, I love Kid Rock.
But I don't know if every advice of his is the best. But now some of it is, that's for sure, but some of it may not be.
You're right, and a lot of these politicians have 18 different consultants. You can't use that word.
You can't say that. And that makes it miserable.
He's not like that, right. And people find that appealing.
I get it. But again, I don't think you could have a pathological liar if somebody doesn't believe in women, have the right, women have the right to control their bodies, or doesn't believe in climate change i think that's that's bad and by the way i i'm not quite so sure but she believes in democracy as well yeah well and look yeah those are that's exactly that's how you feel and it's important um and you've always had your own feelings and i appreciate you always having them and sharing what they are did you feel like whenever the people tried to assassinate did you think it was deeper than think it was just some Reddit jockey just on a roof? First of all, it was horrible.
I mean, I disagree with Trump on everything, but the idea of people assassinating Trump or anybody else is- Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy.
It is horrible. And it's, I mean, I can't give you the words.
It's just terrible. We cannot have that in American politics.
My own guess, and I'm not an expert, I'm sure there are a lot of conspiratorial theories that are out there. I think you have, we've seen it before.
You've seen seemingly normal people walking into schools with guns, doing horrible things, right? Yeah. And I think you had, for whatever reason, I don't want to even speculate why this young man did what he did.
But You just think it was a young man who just, that was it. That's what the evidence seems to suggest so far.
But you didn't hear anything else. You guys don't hear anything else as Congress people.
You don't hear anything deeper than that. I don't know any great secrets that you don't know.
Yeah. Do you think that Kamala Harris is the best person to run against Donald Trump right now? Well, she is the person.
And that won't change probably, huh? No. She'll be the Democratic candidate.
And I've known Kamala for a number of years. Not best friends, but I've known her.
She was in the Senate for a short period. She's very smart.
And she's determined. I mean, above and beyond her views on the issues, which I support most of them, not all.
You've got to give credit to somebody, a black woman to move up the ladder. That ain't easy stuff.
There's a lot of resistance to that. And she's persistent, she's strong, and I respect that.
And I think she'll be a good candidate. I was interested that Trump apparently backed out of a debate with her on ABC.
I wouldn't, you know, I have debated her as a matter of fact. She's tough.
She's tough. Was there a chance that you were going to get that nominee or as an independent? Can you get then plotted with the Democratic Party and put in? Was there even a call about it or anything? No.
You know, I ran in 16. I ran against Hillary Clinton and I ran

in 20. Yeah, I remember.
And I felt like you

I felt like you didn't get

treated fairly, to be honest with you. No, I didn't.

And that's what happens when you take on the establishments.

What happened is we won

the first three primaries and then

the

establishment got very, very nervous and they got

a whole lot of candidates in the Democratic

primary. And they said, hey, be a good idea if you all dropped out.
Let Joe Biden be the one candidate. People rallied around them.
And do they call, is there a call that you get and it's like you're not going to move forward? Is it just like news articles? Like how does it, how does the establishment kind of work? Well, what happens is I won the popular vote in Iowa. I won the New Hampshire primary.
I won the Nevada primary. And those were the first three.
And then, four pages of the New York Times, Democratic establishment, very nervous, Bernie Sanders could win the whole thing. We were doing very well in the polls.
And, you know, I think behind the scenes, people thought, you know, there were like 15 different candidates, and they were splitting up the vote. And that's how I was, I was not necessarily getting over 50%, I was getting more than other people, So I was on the way to victory.
And they said, look, Bernie shouldn't be the candidate for a variety of reasons. We don't want him the candidate.
Drop out. And then on one day, a lot of people, one or two days, a lot of people dropped out.
It was Joe Biden and me, and Joe had a lot of support, and all these people came behind him, and that's what happened. Let me say you know having said that uh biden is a

friend of mine uh i think he's done a very good job over the last three and a half years and i'm working very hard to see that kamala is elected our next president the heat of summer is here god it's hot my my shadows not even i saw it having a lemonade yesterday and wearing ice pack on its neck neck like god that's why you need liquid iv they have refreshing summer flavors like popsicle firecracker rainbow sherbert you know it indulge in hydration with electrolytes essential vitamins and clinically tested nutrients from the the number one powdered hydration brand in America, Liquid IV. That's true.
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That's 20% off your first order when you shop Better Hydration today using promo code Theo at liquidiv.com. Did you feel like, it started to seem like people were losing faith in the media, right? And I feel like that that's had a huge effect on society.
It's created a lot of opportunities for what are often labeled as conspiracy theories, but then often end up being truth just because, not all, but yeah, often end up being truths or having realness to them because the news media isn't even, you know, it's like they all just go down these same similar paths and it's not, it doesn't even feel real anymore. I mean, the fact that you and I are talking is wild, you know, it's like, I talk to me you know but but you know but the fact but look the bad news is bad news and good news the good news is you got a program invite millions of people tune into you yeah and part of that is that people not necessarily believe cbs nbc abc or even fox or anybody else and uh so let me tell you what I think about that.
I think you're touching on an important issue. We talk about healthcare, we talk about media.
You have about eight large media conglomerates, you know, Comcast and all these guys. They're huge.
Serious. Exactly.
They own, you know, people turn on their- Clear Channel. You got it.
You got it. They're huge.
They own, they don't own one station. They own radio stations.
They own TV stations. They own movies, you know, producers.
So these are owned by very large billionaires. You know, big companies owned by billionaires.
And they will discuss issues from here to here. I gave you an example about Medicare for all.
We should be having a tremendous discussion why we're the only country on earth not to guarantee health care. It doesn't take place on television.
We should be talking about massive income and wealth inequality. There are three people in America who want more wealth than the bottom half of American society.
Think that's appropriate? No, sir. Okay.
I think there should be a limit on how much a person can earn. Okay.
To be honest with you, it may be some millions, but I don't think it should be billions. I agree with you.
I agree with you, actually. And I think most Americans would.
When's the last time you've seen that discussion on NBC? It ain't going to take place. All right? We have- But that's what the people want though.
Yes, that is exactly.

That's why you're a success and why other people,

you know,

with very limited resources,

if you like,

because you don't see that type of discussion.

I just did a poll.

My campaign did a poll just on these issues.

You know,

talking about issues that working class people want and need that are almost

never discussed in politics or in the corporate media. And the answer is people are hurting.
They want change. No one's talking about it.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's heartbreaking. It's like, I don't know, the people don't even get thought of anymore.
It feels like a lot of times. And here's the toughest part.
I think Bernie is as a person who has felt like in their life, maybe their father died in a war, their grandfather died in a war and they've been, tried to pay their taxes and be a, you know, considerate person in their town or their country. After a while, those good people start, it starts to erode a little because they don't feel like, and they lose their sense of purpose, man.
When you're, you lose the fabric of your society, a lot of people, that's how they, they didn't it. A lot of us don't even realize that we identify as an American.
And when you realize, well, America, it's nothing, but it's a shell LLC for fucking big corporations, then what am I? I'm just an idiot. You almost feel ashamed of yourself, or you can.
Anyway, just, I don't know. A lot of that stuff just, I just don't see how people think that that's good or how you're going to still be able to get people to buy in.
Theo, I think you said it better than I did. I mean, I agree with you.
I think a lot of people are ashamed. They're given up.
They're hurting. Yeah.
And many of these people have fought and died, or their families have fought and died in wars and they're good people

and maybe they're nurses and business people

yeah anything crossing guard mailman

exactly they believe in their community

and meanwhile they're getting ripped off

by people on top politically and economically

well even the radio like you're saying

it's like you used to have like a newspaper

and it meant something

your community meant something

it used to be that your grandpa worked at the factory

and they made the table that you have in your home

in the Like you used to have like a newspaper and you, you read and it meant something. Your community meant something.
It used to be that your grandpa worked at the factory and they made the table that you have in your home. And so everything had a story to it.
There's some connection. And now it's like, we're buying stuff from countries that they're making it.
They don't care. We're using it.
We don't care. There's no story.
Nobody has any, like, uh, there's no, there's no thread. You know, know the thread just gets thin that's a very profound point you just made and so how do we get it back you know ain't easy yeah but i think but i think you hit the nail on the head people will you know you're in right now you're in vermont which is one of the smallest states in in the.
It's a very rural state. Beautiful.
Burlington is the largest city with 40,000. I used to be mayor here, you know.
But you go into small towns. Everybody knew everybody.
Often they were dairy farmers. We had a lot of dairy farmers.
People worked really hard being a dairy farmer. Oh, yeah.
I used to work at Cold Stone Kramers for a while. So not the same, but I get it.
But milking cows, you know, five o'clock in the morning on a cold winter day, ain't easy work. But it was like everybody knew each other.
Nobody cheated each other. It was a sense of, then you have town meetings once a year and people argue about the school budget and all that stuff.
And we are losing that big time for a lot. Maybe next time we'll talk about that.
But we're losing that, as you indicated, for a lot of reasons. And if we don't get it back i i worry about the future of this country yeah we can that is kind of a bigger topic i've heard you talk about the 32-hour work week man it's intriguing when anybody second i heard that i'm like i'm in you know it i tell you it got a lot of response yeah i think there was a poll i don't know if it was aweek.
I don't know where it was. Yeah, the 32-hour workweek.
And one of the reasons behind it is why. Okay, here's why.
All right, let me back it up a little bit. I'm going to ask you a question.
Are you ready for a tough question? Let's do it. All right.
Over the last 50 years, five zero years, massive changes in technology, right?

50 years ago, they didn't have this stuff.

Worker productivity has gone way up, right?

So you're working out playing with technology, machinery, whether it's a computer, whether it's factory technology, you're producing a lot more, correct?

In terms of real-

You're producing more because you have machines that can help you.

Exactly.

Got it.

Okay.

Right. Much more, it.
Okay. Right.

Much more, by the way.

Right.

So a machine can do the work of 30 men in a day.

You got it.

Whatever it may be.

Okay.

In term, despite all of that,

increased worker productivity,

is the worker of today in real inflation

accounted for dollars,

making more or less money than that worker was doing or or a worker, a similar type worker, 50 years ago? What's the answer? I would say less. So less based on inflation and everything.
The worker's making less now than they were then. In real dollars.
Yeah, we call real dollars, inflation accounted for dollars. Real dollars.
Perfect. How insane is that if that worker is now producing so much more than he or she did for the workers? Oh, I see what you're saying.
So now if a worker is operating a machine and that machine is doing the work of 20 workers, then why isn't there some benefit to the worker? You would think that the guys make it more money, right? Hey, you're reducing a lot more. Yeah.
Or widgets or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, got it? Okay, make a mess. Where did we all have money gone? Well, who benefited from that? Oh, the Ding Dongs Prime.
Oh, that same tree to tongue. There was a study that there was a 50 trillion untypical redistribution of wealth to you a bottom 90% for the top 1%.
So getting back to the 32-hour work week, it's a simple idea. If you are a worker producing a hell of a lot more than was the case 30 years ago, you should benefit from an increased technology.
And one of the breakout people is you mentioned them only living under a lot of stress, right? If you can lower that work week without loss of pay. Right.
So you're saying that there needs to be some keep back to them because that's if everybody's earning more, if the company's earning more. Yeah.
Yeah. Some of the greed, it's just scary, man.
I don't know. Yeah.
It's just scary. I want to get into, oh, wait, but what about, would you have to raise the pay of people then? Oh, I guess because they're...
Yeah, you know, if you reduce, what we're doing here is reducing the work week which is from 40 to 32, which by the way has stopped in change since like 44. Yeah, and that's when people had to do crops and everything.
Yeah, people were just snitting by lightning bugging. So, we are a much wealthier nation now, but I want that wealth to be distributed a little bit.
By the way, come on, tell us. We're almost done, yep.
Just one more issue I want to ask and it'll be quick. Last question.
If you were to look at, if there's somebody out there today who's like a guy who you were who wanted to see change, who started protesting on campuses and got involved and became a mayor and wants to get into politics and really thinks that they can make a difference. What path do they need to try for themselves now with so much lobbying and stuff going on? What would you tell them? First of all, what you're involved in is some politics would change.
And being elected official is one way of bringing up a chance. Let's not do any way.
You know, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
was never elected in anything, right? He had a profound impact on this country. Never raped in anything.
And you're seeing young people who are concerned about climate change on campuses. So go with your your passion may be different than mine.
What's your issue? I don't know this. So work on that issue.
Read people. Educate.
Organize. Read people.
And if you then decide, hey, you may go along for the state legislature. Never go along for times.
I want to get my, you know, hands dirty in politics. Do it.
But first of all, don't do it just because I want to get elected. That's bad, right? Do it because you believe inside it.
And getting elected will help you do it fine. If not, you can do it in other ways.
Yeah. Bernie Sanders, thank you so much for your time, man.
Thank you very much. Let me just say this.
Congratulations on your programs. And what programs like this do, I'm on TV a lot.
You know, I get seven seconds to make a point. Can't make it seven seconds.
So, we argue you can have a serious discussion about serious issues is really great. I thank you for the opportunity and thank you for what you do.
Thank you. I've always been a proponent and thank you for just being an outspoken person who believes in things and moves forward with those beliefs.
Now I'm just floating on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves. For 50 years now, hip-hop has been a reflection of culture and society.
That includes stories of struggle and pain, social injustice, racial inequality, the marginalization of communities. Today, we confront a health care system that has been rigged against all of us.
Hospitals force patients to sign contracts for services without ever showing us actual prices, stifling competition, overcharging without accountability. And if we can't pay, these same contracts allow them to take everything we own, Creating so much fear that millions and millions of Americans refuse to enter a hospital.
Putting our health and our lives at stake. This is an American humanitarian crisis.
We love our nurses and we need our doctors. But hospitals and insurers rigging a system to make profits off of people that's in struggle is unforgivable.

We demand prices.

And transparency in healthcare.

Power to the patients.