Gov. Whitmer: How to Be Happy AND Win

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Today, Pod Squad, we are very excited because we have with us right smack in the middle of a historic Democratic National Convention during which Vice President Kamala Harris will officially accept the nomination for President of the United States.

Big Gretsch.

Woo, woo, woo!

The badass governor of Michigan, Governor Gretchen Whitmer.

Thank you for being here.

We're going to

introduce you, even though you need no introduction.

Governor Gretchen Whitmer rose to national prominence during COVID for her leadership in saving lives and calling out Trump for having no national response to the pandemic, which got under his skin and earned her the nickname That Woman from Michigan.

Later that year, a domestic terrorist cell developed an elaborate plan to kidnap and kill her, a plot that was foiled by the FBI and state police.

Governor Whitmer, who's the mother of two daughters, first ran for office at the age of 29 and has never lost an election.

Rapper G-Mac Cash wrote a song about her called Big Gretsch.

True Gretsch, which was an instant New York Times bestseller and is an awesome read, is her first book.

Welcome, Governor.

Thank you for coming here.

Thank you.

I'm so glad to be with you all.

So, Governor Whitmer, you were a state senator in Michigan when the Michigan Senate was voting on a particularly callous anti-abortion bill.

Can you tell tell us about what happened that day on that floor on the day of the vote?

Absolutely.

So in 2013, December 11th, to be exact, I can tell you that because it was my grandma, Nino, who I talk about in the book, it was her 100th birthday.

And I started the day off by calling her and wishing her a happy birthday.

And later that day, in the legislature, I was the Senate Democratic leader.

And my predecessor, Rick Snyder, Republican governor in Michigan, had vetoed legislation that would create yet another barrier for women to access abortion care, health care in Michigan.

And the proponents of that bill went straight to the people.

And in Michigan, it's this weird thing under the law where you can collect a certain number of signatures and bypass the governor's veto altogether.

It puts the issue in front of the legislature and a simple majority can change state law and there's nothing that a sitting governor can do about it.

And so right to life and

a number of organizations went out and collected signatures and brought this legislation straight to us, the legislature.

And as I said, I was the minority leader.

We had a caucus of 12 people and a body of 38.

I was one of only four women.

I often tell people at that point, there were more men named John in the Senate than women.

There were five Johns, four women in the Senate.

And it was very clear they weren't going to hold a single hearing to let women in Michigan weigh in, to let health care providers weigh in.

They were just jamming this through.

And this would have made it required for a woman and her family to pre-purchase an abortion rider in the event that they needed abortion care.

So you had to pre-plan for something that is an unplanned event and buy something that didn't even exist in the marketplace.

So it was just a complete barrier to this kind of care.

Even in the cases of rape, right?

Even in the case of rape, incest, even in the case of a desperately wanted pregnancy that didn't come to term for whatever reason and required what we call a DNC.

And we can talk about all the different names we've given to abortion.

We need to get comfortable using the word abortion in this country.

But it would have created just yet another barrier, another hardship for women.

And I talked to a friend of mine.

He and his wife had gone through IVF a number of times.

They desperately wanted to become parents.

She had recently had a miscarriage, but it didn't complete at home.

She had to go to the hospital to have the abortion done.

And it cost tens of thousands of dollars.

It was a horrible situation for them.

And had this law been in effect, their insurance would never have covered a dime of it.

And so I asked him to tell his story because I thought maybe that story would resonate with the people on the other side of the aisle.

people who want kids and still needed this care.

And he couldn't do it.

It was too heavy, too hard, too recent.

And I was walking back to my desk and I thought, how can I ask Jim to tell his story when I have a story?

And I had never shared that I was sexually assaulted in college.

I was raped as a freshman.

I'd shared it only with a couple of partners over the course of my life.

But I thought, I got to tell my story and put a face to the women who are going to be impacted by this.

And I got rid of my prepared remarks and ended up speaking off the cuff.

I shared the worst moment of my life publicly for the first time, and it didn't change a single vote in the legislature.

I had to call my dad on the way home to tell him that I'd been raped in college and this was going to be in the news.

I was so depressed when I woke up the next day.

And yet, by the time I got into the office, we'd heard from hundreds of people in Michigan and outside of Michigan.

They were sending facts, right?

I have to explain to kids what a fax is, but they were sending emails and they were making phone calls.

And it was like that moment when I realized, okay, i i lost i it was depressing but yet look at this community that i am a part of a public part of now and i tell that story because 10 years later to the day as governor i signed the repeal of that legislation and so that story is told in a um a chapter that we call never give up these fights are hard they take longer than they should it can be incredibly painful but we can win these fights They are worth having and worth waging and worth staying committed to.

Yeah, so much of that story really got me.

It reminded me, we interviewed Christine Blasey Ford, and she too was saying how she gave her testimony and was so vulnerable and so brave, and nothing changed.

And it reminded me of maybe it didn't change with the people you were speaking to, but a whole other chorus of people heard you.

It meant everything to them.

So it's like there's an other them

that

it activates.

But can you tell us what the Republican senator said to you after you spoke?

Because that's what I thought, wow, this is the crux of everything.

Yeah.

So I gave this, you know, gut-wrenching revelation in an effort to try to put a face to the people that were going to be impacted by this new policy.

And I lost.

And as I was wrapping up thinking, I got to call my dad and my, I'm thinking about my little girls who are at home and they're going to hear, maybe hear this, and how do I talk to them about it?

One of my colleagues from the other side of the aisle came up to me and he said, I think you're really brave.

And my wife also was raped in college.

And I, I wish I could vote with you on this, but I just can't because of politics.

Something to that effect.

And I was, you know, I just was,

you know, wompergasted.

You know, it was like, you're confessing this to me and you're telling me you believe I made the right vote.

And even though your wife had a similar circumstance, you still don't have the backbone to cast this vote.

It was really stunning, maddening.

Yeah, it's so depressing as a voter to just hear so many stories about you kind of vote people in to vote their conscience and to just see repeatedly that that's not what happens.

Also, just one final follow-up question.

Did you just say womper gasted?

I really wanted to follow up on that yeah

i don't know one of my girlfriends says it and i think it's hilarious so okay i just my new favorite word looking for a word and it felt right it does it is right i think whitmer wampergasted whitmer i don't know we can play with it

we can have a lot of fun with it I believe in the happy warrior, you know, like the happy warrior is always a mindset I'm trying to cultivate and encourage.

And so, yes, if you can laugh while you're putting up a fight, I think that's that's really helpful.

And Wampergassid, I think, is a part of that.

The Happy Warrior thing is so,

I mean,

the last month,

the energy and joy, like, can you speak to the happy warrior?

Because I feel like the whole, how Trump was trying to kind of make fun of the vice president because of her laugh, because of her joy, as if that was a diminishing factor.

And the country right now is so magnetized to it.

That's what we've been waiting for.

What do you think that is about the happy warrior?

Well, you know, I think we all are exhausted, right?

We're exhausted from so many stressors, from a pandemic, from the political rhetoric, from the threats that Americans make against one another, to gun violence.

I mean, to the rolling back of rights that we thought were enshrined in law, right?

For 50 years, we've had rights and now it's, they're gone for a lot of American women and are thinking about our kids.

We're exhausted.

And so the meanness of campaigns is, it just doesn't have appeal.

We need joy.

And to see, you know, Kamala Harris and Tim Walls, I don't think she could have made a better choice, to be honest.

I was thrilled that she picked Tim.

She had a lot of great choices, like Josh Shapiro.

I'm friends with all of them.

I love them all.

Tim is the kind of guy who will always find, you know, the something that is humorous and will infuse joy.

And that's exactly what Kamala Harris has been doing.

And I think it's speaking to people because, yeah, these are serious issues.

We need serious people who can solve problems, but we also need to know like there's light.

We can find goodness in every single day.

And that's exactly what they're doing.

And I think it's resonating with people because we need that.

It's important.

And we all choose.

what we consume every day, right?

Like the kind of media, the kind of rhetoric, the kind of information we consume every day.

We also choose what we put out in in the world every single day.

And we have a choice to make.

And I think the choice Americans are telling us is they want hope, they want happy, they want problems solved, they want serious people, but who also are humans and can have some fun too.

Yeah.

I know we are also huge Coach Walls fans over here.

We love him as VP

forever.

So happy.

And yet I feel like, and I know you're doing exactly the job you want to do, exactly where you want to be.

You're not interested in that.

Okay, all of this is true.

It feels like the elephant in the room, though, is

that you obviously

are right there with walls in everything that you are, everything that you do.

And it seemed like, well, obviously we can't have Governor Whitmer because that would be two women.

And that's so extreme.

That's a bridge too far.

That's nuts.

Whereas we've had 230 years of two men, which has never been seen as extreme in any event.

I'm not asking about the process.

I'm asking like, what do you think of that?

Which is like, would love it, but not possible.

But it's not going to change.

Well, I do think America's ready for two women at the top of the ticket.

Okay.

You know, I'm not on the ticket because I don't believe we're ready for two women.

I absolutely do.

I've made a commitment to Michigan and everyone knows that I'm serious when I say that.

All of that being said, you know, every woman who's in an executive office in Michigan, right, there's three of us.

So we hold the top three offices, governor, secretary of state, attorney general.

It's the Holy Trinity over there.

Every single one of us was told, oh, we can't have too many women on the ticket.

Every one of us was told that.

And yet we all ignored it.

We all ran.

We all got elected.

and we all got re-elected.

People absolutely are ready for women to lead.

They see women leading, whether it's in sports, it's in the private sector, it's in the public sector.

And I think it would be really exciting.

So I always, you know, I write that off.

That's baloney.

If it can happen in Michigan, it could happen anywhere.

We are the microcosm of the country.

And I think that's why everyone's looking at us to say what's going to happen in this next election or any election for that matter, because Michigan is that most diverse swing state.

We've shown here it can be done.

Not only can it be done, but I won by almost 11 points in my reelection in a state like this.

That's pretty unheard of.

Yeah, you did.

Can you please walk us through the day that a group of people were planning and very close to executing a plot to kidnap and assassinate you?

Can you take us through that?

Yeah, absolutely.

So, you know, you might recall that Michigan was kind of the canary in the coal mine.

Some of the first protests were at the Michigan Capitol.

And I'll tell you, everything changed when Trump started targeting me and singling me out and talking about Michigan specifically.

We could see in our social media and in everything that the police are watching an uptick every time he even mentioned me or the state of Michigan, for that matter.

So as soon as he turned on me, when I said there's no national strategy on national television trying to get suaves and PPE for our doctors and nurses,

he turned on me and my Republican legislature turned on me too at that point.

So they started suing me.

There began the 28 recall attempts against me in my first term.

There were so so many threats that had begun.

And they had this project gridlock where they clogged up all the streets around the Capitol.

And I was down there.

And in the book, you can see there's a picture of a sign that I took from my window in my office that said halfwit, which is another one of the insults that Trump threw my way,

is the reason we have the Second Amendment.

And my blood ran cold that day because there were swastikas, there were Confederate flags.

I mean, look at a map.

Michigan is, you know, we're practically Canada.

We're so far away from the South.

It was, we were a union state.

So it was really jarring to see this likeness of me hanging from a noose.

I mean, this was early on.

And then there was an armed protest at our Capitol shortly after that, much like January 6th.

And so this...

kind of militia in Michigan, these folks that were domestic terrorists were listening to Trump and were inspired by his words and started plotting this kidnapping attempt.

There were 12 to 14 men who spent months training in the woods, practicing on what they called a kill house, staking out my property up north to grab me.

There were all sorts of text messages about how they were going to kill me, put me on a sham trial and execute me

in live television.

I mean, this was real.

I was made aware of it

in

the summer of 2020 when my detail, my state police detail, let me know that this was happening and that one guy who was a part of it had turned to become an FBI informant because he was shaken by how serious it had gotten and wanted to make sure it didn't happen.

So I always knew that it was going on for a couple months before it became public.

My family didn't.

I had to tell them as it became clear, charges were being brought and arrests were being made.

And my kids were teenagers at the time.

And I'm a stoic person.

I'm slow to boil.

I've got a long fuse they're kind of cut from the same cloth my husband on the other hand a little more emotional but um i you know shared with them that this was happening we're safe we don't have to worry about it but uh as the details became more and more public and as the trials were playing out i couldn't help but learn more about what it was even though i wasn't consuming it purposefully and it was really harrowing to think that this plot where so many people were involved and where they'd taken such

gone to such great lengths to to do this was being covered as a kidnapping plot where um in juxtapose to you know one person showing up on brett kavanaugh's lawn and getting caught before any real danger was was afoot was viewed as an assassination attempt and i point that out um not to fault the media but to recognize like we've got to be conscious about how we cover things against women versus things against men um and that's my purpose for pointing that out both were very serious neither is acceptable but man the the way that they were covered was incredibly different

what is that about

gender you know i mean is kidnapping a more you know

Does that get people's attention more than assassination?

I don't know.

But it was striking at how much more in depth, how many more people are involved, how much work had gone into, you what happened here in Michigan versus what played out on Brett Kavanaugh's lawn, and yet how different they were described.

It's also like the word kidnapping implies someone who is powerless, and the word assassination implies someone who is important.

And so it would make a lot of sense that you would, if you wanted to diminish your power, you would call it kidnapping.

And if you want to accentuate...

Kavanaugh's power, you would call it assassination.

I had not thought about that, but you're absolutely right.

Yeah.

You're like a pawn in a power play as opposed to a power player.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Right.

That's an interesting, yeah.

I've that's that makes sense to me.

Can you tell us, um, I have not delved into this too much because it, I'm trying to control the things I can control during these next couple months, but I keep hearing people talk to me about how they believe that Trump has placed so many election deniers in high places that we should be terrified that even after we win the election, it's going to get so ugly and maybe they'll cheat their, can you just, is it possible for you to explain that like it's to dummies?

What is everyone afraid of?

And can you make us less afraid of it?

I'll try on both fronts.

Thank you.

First, you know, in 2020, we saw this

really comprehensive effort across the swing states to undermine our confidence in elections.

We saw them infiltrate polling places to make threats to,

I think, undermine our ability to conduct the election.

And once the election was conducted and they saw the results, that's when they started plotting about how do we put this fake electoral slate of electors into these states.

Michigan, North Carolina.

Wisconsin and Pennsylvania were square in it because each of us had a Democratic governor and a Republican legislature.

And so the thought was with these Republican legislatures to send alternative slates of electors to send their results to Washington, D.C.

And that's how they were going to steal the election.

Fortunately, there were a lot of people running their mouths about it.

And so we knew this was afoot and we did a lot of groundwork leading up to the election to make sure that it was easy for people to get their votes in, but also to ensure that we had all of the legal safeguards to protect that vote, regardless of what the outcome was.

So Roy Cooper in North Carolina, Tom Wolfe in Pennsylvania, Tony Evers and I and all of our teams and secretaries of state and attorneys general were working very closely together.

Since then, I can tell you in Michigan, we've expanded voting rights.

We've heightened the criminal penalties for people that make threats against those who work the polls or who try to interfere.

And so we've done a lot of different pieces to it.

We're still, I think, need to be very vigilant to ensure that people can exercise exercise their franchise.

And in Michigan, you can do it a lot earlier now than you could in 2020.

And that's one of those safeguards.

But we're going to continue to work very closely with Tony Evers and Josh Shapiro now in Pennsylvania and Roy Cooper in North Carolina, as well as Katie Hobbs in Arizona.

As I think about this upcoming election, we are so lucky.

to have these governors because we are going to be the ones that are overseeing and running our states going into this critical election.

Had our opponents like Kerry Lake been the governor in Arizona or the guy who was running against Shapiro in Pennsylvania or here in Michigan, Tudor Dixon, if any of these people had been governors right now, I'd be a lot more nervous.

All that being said, we got to be vigilant.

It's going to take an army of lawyers and the Trump campaign is lowering up.

They're hiring more lawyers than volunteers.

And I think that tells you a lot about what their strategy is.

And that's why we can't let our guard down for a second.

They're hiring, the Republicans are hiring more lawyers than they are recruiting volunteers?

That's what's been reported.

I've seen it in a number of publications where that's where they're spending a lot of their funds.

Yeah.

And so the idea of that is that the Trump campaign, they want to sue

the results to try to overturn the election in that way.

Yeah.

And that's part of the why, you know, Abby, when when President Biden decided not to run and there was, you know, 24 hours where people were playing fantasy football and erasing the board and throwing random names on the board.

One of the things I kept reminding people is, listen, we've got the laws of 50 states to navigate.

There's one candidate who we know can be our candidate in all 50 states.

It's Kamala Harris.

So we've got to get

unified around Kamala Harris right now because I don't trust

challenges in all these states that go to the United States Supreme Court to yield a just result anymore.

I hate to say that as a lawyer, I was raised and educated to revere the courts, and yet even I am very dubious of whether or not we would get a just result.

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What's going to happen with the Supreme Court?

What are we going to do?

Like, what is this?

Now that you're fixing everything for us, could you do that real quick?

Could you just do Supreme Court hope for dummies real quick?

Yeah, you know, I'm not an expert on the Supreme Court.

I am a lawyer, but I'm smart enough to know where my expertise ends.

I would say this: that the most important thing we can do right now is to make sure that we don't have a second Trump term.

Make sure that we, you know, elect Kamala Harris and Tim Walls to the most powerful positions in the country.

That any appointments that come up will be made by people who respect the Constitution and will put people of integrity on the court.

Also, giving them a lot of friends in Congress.

That's a part of our work.

We have an open U.S.

Senate seat here in Michigan.

I'm working hard to help Alyssa Slotkin, but I think that these are

go hand in hand as we think about long term.

We know they've already teed up reproductive rights and said different ways that they could be challenged.

They've signaled it.

We know where they want to head.

And so I'm focused on the next 90-some days, but I think then we've got to have what's the next part of the strategy.

And I've got great confidence in Kamala Harris.

You, a big part of your book is all of these magical tools that

you have acquired throughout your career.

And one of them is being a real listener, like just listening to learn

instead of to respond.

And I'm wondering,

you have two daughters that are amazing in their own right.

And I'm wondering if you could give us an example of something, a decision that you made professionally in your career that was a response to listening.

to your girls.

Oh, listening to my girls.

Well, you know, I learned a lot from my children.

They're 22 and 20.

They are badass young women, and they don't have a lot of the same hang-ups that people in my generation do.

Thankfully, like that's a good thing.

Yes.

I'm definitely able to show up as I am in a way that my predecessors couldn't.

And I hope that my kids and their generation can take that the next step.

My oldest daughter is a gay woman.

And, you know, we did an interview with a big national publication, and we were talking about the upcoming election, my re-election.

And my daughter had decided to share that she's gay when we were talking about

everything from women's reproductive rights to everything else under the sun.

And I didn't ask her to.

I always invite my kids to participate in all my things, but I never asked them to, or certainly would never pressure them to.

But she wanted to.

She was ready.

She was in that

space.

And I signed as governor.

one of my happiest days was of course repealing that abortion law.

But another was expanding LGBTQ plus civil rights in Michigan.

We finally got Michigan on the right side of history.

I signed that bill with my daughter by my side in the first hundred days of this term.

And it was like one of my favorite moments.

And it when in going into it, you'll crack up at this though.

In going into it, I was texting with her.

She was at the University of Michigan.

And I was texting with her.

I said, do you want to come?

And she said, yes.

And I said, do you want to be a part of it?

And she said, yes.

I said, how do you want me to refer to you when I'm doing interviews?

Do you want me to refer to you as like, you know, a member of the LGBTQ community?

And she's text me back and she's like, L-O-L, come on, Gretchen.

I'm like, when she says Gretchen, like, I know.

I've done something wrong.

What, what, what?

And she goes, I'm a gay woman or lesbian, whatever.

One goes to.

And I'm like, okay, okay.

I said, thank you, gay woman.

And she texted me back.

You're welcome, non-community member.

So I just,

they keep me humble.

They keep me current.

And they push me, whether it's abortion rights, because I want my kids to think about Michigan as a place they might build a life and having those protections.

And under the law, whether it's you're deciding your own health care or being able to love who you love and show up as you are.

It's really important to me as a mom, but I think to a generation of Americans who that's the floor.

Yeah.

God, that's beautiful.

We have that situation because we have a 22-year-old who's a serious activist.

And wow, like it is, you got to be careful who you raise, man, because they come at you.

Like nobody pushes us harder than the people inside of our home.

Nobody.

That's why talking to young people, even if they're not old enough to vote, is really important.

And to your initial question, listening, right?

I mean, I learn more by asking people, what can I do that'll make your life better?

And they're not shy, but they're very unused to being asked.

They're used to people talking at them and not being able to,

you know, have input, real input.

What are some other magical tools that you feel like really...

Because you're an exceptional leader.

Like,

what are they?

Just help us understand what would be a top three.

Surround yourself with great people.

In the book, I talk a little bit about how three weeks into the term, we had a polar vortex in Michigan, and it was the convergence of a number of different systems, and the wind chill plummeted to negative 55 degrees.

It was like, this was three weeks in, by the way.

And

we had to, you know, set up shop at our state emergency operations center, got a call from one of our big utilities that they had a fire at one of their power stations and we might lose power for a million people overnight.

Oh, no.

Negative 55 degrees, right?

And so we were all there trying to figure out what could we do?

You know,

I can't fix the power station.

They're working overtime to do it.

And

Consumers Energy had asked all their business customers to shut down and to turn their thermostats down as low as they could to, you know, stop work, send everyone home.

And I thought, you you know, someone on my team said, what if we ask everyone to turn down their thermostats, like all the homeowners too?

And it was 10 o'clock at night.

We did a press conference.

I asked people to do that.

But then someone on the team said, we have an emergency alert system.

What if we use it?

And we ping everyone's phone, we interrupt everyone's television show, like we wake them up because at 10 o'clock, odds are a lot of people aren't going to see that press conference.

And so that's what we did.

Most people took a little self-sacrifice and and did it and we got through the night without losing power and consumers energy got their power station back online and we made it through and i i really thought okay my one crisis i'm going to have to deal with is over

obviously pandemics and plots and everything else happened but I think the lesson in that was I was surrounded by great people.

When you have diversity of experience and

lived experience, but also educational experience, geographical, racial, religious, all those things, if they're empowered, can make you a better organization.

And I think that's one of the most important things.

I've got a phenomenal team on my political side and on my

critical government side.

Can I ask you about that moment?

Because

you were just saying it was preparing you for the next crisis.

And that part of your book was so impactful for me because you describe this table and everyone's like, okay, we could rolling turn off the power and then, or we could do this thing or bring in these people.

And then someone just says, how about we just ask people to sacrifice a little bit?

How about we just ask them to help us?

And we, and, and it made me so sad because I thought about the whole COVID crisis and how under the right leadership of the country that was appealing to the

best parts of us, the parts of us that want to come together for our community, that COVID could have actually brought us together instead of the leadership that was appealing to the absolute worst parts of us.

What else there out there right now is a power grid?

Like, what other problems are we dealing with right now that we could just be appealing to the best of us and bringing us together?

Oh, that's a great question.

You know, I think there's so much that is there.

You know, I was raised in a household.

My dad was a Republican, and I put it in quotes now because he hasn't been for quite a while because the party's just become something he doesn't even recognize.

My mother was a Democrat, and she actually was more conservative than my dad in some things, which is just kind of funny to think of where the parties are now.

And in the household in which I was raised, If we stay focused on finding common ground and learning about one another, seeing the humanity in one another, that opens up so many possibilities for us to do big things, great things.

I think about when John F.

Kennedy said, we're going to the moon.

And had we had that type of leadership in the pandemic, I'm confident we would have lost fewer lives.

I'm confident that we would have

come through it and not had this angry hangover that everyone seems to have.

They take it out on airline

attendance.

They take it out on wait servers.

I mean, I think that this is something that continues to plague us.

And I am hopeful that after this election cycle, you know, I'm glad to see that there still are some Republicans who claim to be Republicans, even though they aren't going to vote for Donald Trump because they want to take their party back.

I think it's important for us to have a at least a two-party system that is robust and thoughtful and debates.

We don't have that right now.

And I really think that that's

doing us all a disservice and making it harder for us to solve big problems and to look out for one another.

And that leadership, that vision, that humanity really does matter.

And I think that's, we're really fortunate that we've got, you know,

a ticket like Harris Walls that could restore all that.

So much of this moment is about people.

being brave and speaking up and putting signs in their yards and talking to their friends and phone banking and saying things online and like kind of being bold.

And there's also never been more pushback to that.

And you do get yelled at.

And no matter what, it's going to be scary and people are going to scream at you.

And half of them are bots.

And half of them, and I justifiably have a lot of brave progressive friends who are, when I ask them why they haven't spoken out, are like,

hello.

I don't have the nervous system for this.

Like, I'll work.

I'm working.

privately, but like, it's a setup.

I end up getting scared a lot.

Like, I have a nervous system that when people yell at me, it takes me a minute.

I have to, like, I know that I'm going to come back and do it again, but it's not a simple process.

You're saying you have a stoicism.

I'm wondering

that it has to be pretty intense to have the president of the United States, the people in the parking lot,

the trying to kill you,

the having children during that time.

What you tell people

that might help them

be bold get the feedback and continue on anyway like do you just have really good therapy like what

therapy text us the name of your therapist yeah therapy helps and one of the one of the great um pieces of counsel I've gotten

in therapy at one point was

this incredibly wise woman I was talking with.

And she, you know, we were talking about my early childhood.

My parents divorced when I was a really little kid, six, and I took on a lot of added responsibility.

We also talked about, you know, as a rape survivor, what that's meant and how that's informed who I've become.

And she observed that every one of us is a ball of clay.

And sometimes things are taken away from us.

So we're like hollowed out and it's hurt and it's painful and it's not right.

But sometimes it's that which gives us purpose, right?

And so like that ball of clay that's hollowed out is now a cup.

It's a vessel.

It's got purpose.

And I'm a visual learner.

I love that visual because it helps me find good even in hard things and really unfair things.

And that's, that has, I think, driven a lot of who I am and how I show up.

I'm lucky too that,

you know, my dad gave me a copy of the Four Agreements, you know, about 20 years ago.

And Take Nothing Personally is a really important one of the Four Agreements.

I have a chapter in my book about that with different things that have happened to me, whether it's giving my first state of the state and nailing it and feeling so good that I've set forth this vision for Michigan.

And then the coverage was all about the dress I was wearing.

And they did a whole segment interviewing people to ask them what they thought about my dress.

And people were talking about my boobs and my stomach and, you know, it was just horrible and it was depressing.

And yet, okay, like I've been bullied since I was a little kid.

You're not going to take me off my message and just get right back at it.

And

the good news is people can respond positively to that, but not everyone can do that.

And maybe I couldn't do that 30 years ago, but I can now as a 52-year-old woman who has fewer F's to give, right?

So I think that that's, you know, those are important lessons that I've learned over my life that has helped me when it's ugly to get to get back in or to stay in.

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You're 28.

I'm just thinking of your life.

You are, you know, you're a teenager who accidentally throws up on the principal's shoes when you get, when you're drunk in the parking lot.

You are, you're fun.

You're fun, Gretchen, for a while then.

I am, I am your, your fun friend from high school.

You never thought would amount to much.

Welcome.

That's why you belong here.

I know it was, I was like, there's hope for us yet.

And then you obviously you get serious in law school.

You talk about how that's the being surrounded by ambitious, smart people kind of locked you in of, oh, this looks interesting to me.

You're 28 working at a law firm.

What the hell are you thinking running for office?

Like, and what do you say to

all the people out there who women, you know, we undermine our own ability and credibility.

Talking to your 28-year-old self, what are you saying to the women out there that are like, that's crazy.

I can't do that.

I'm not ready for that.

I tell young women all the time.

I tell, you know, women of all ages all the time, we set the bar so incredibly high for ourselves.

Men don't do that.

No.

You know, I wasn't born to run.

I didn't come out of the womb saying, I'm going to be the president of the United States without any credentials.

But are you saying that right now?

Some people do.

No, no, no.

I'm saying.

We just were first to break the news.

No,

I've got my team right now.

All right.

So right now, she said, right now.

Come back in a few years, okay?

Will you?

To make that announcement?

We'll see.

I didn't, you know, I didn't come out thinking that I was going to ever be a candidate.

I, you know, fell in love with public policy.

I was practicing law.

And it was a friend who called and said, you know, your state representative is term limited.

You should think about running.

And I had never thought about myself as the candidate.

I called both my parents, who long divorced at that point, but were my, you know, I'm very good friends with my dad.

I was so close to my mom.

I lost her a number of years ago, but

they both were so enthusiastic.

You can do this.

And I was like, really?

You know, I just had, and then I looked at the field of candidates.

I'm like, yeah, I can do this.

I can do it as good as, if not better, than most of these people.

So why not?

And I jumped in.

And we do, we say, okay, I've got to hold a lower office first.

No.

I've got to have this degree.

No.

I've got to be married or have kids or have, you know, whatever this chapter is.

No.

I was a single woman.

I was 28.

I was a lawyer.

And it had never dawned on me to do it.

And I jumped in.

I barely won my first election.

I talk a little bit about that in the book.

My dad gave me some great advice about

the decision, you know, toward the end of my primary campaign.

Three weeks out, we did a poll and I was down 20 points.

This, my female opponent, she was picking my butt.

And,

you know, we had a, had to have a, you know, kind of one of those tough conversations with my campaign team.

My dad was a part of it.

He's one of my best advisors my whole life.

And the campaign chairman said, you know, well, we've got an opposition file very thick on your opponent.

It's time for us to go scorched earth.

It's the only chance we have of winning.

And he said, we're going to get negative, like fashion.

Hit her on this, hit her on that, etc.

And my dad interrupted and he said, well, what would it take to win and stay positive?

And the campaign manager said, I don't think you can.

We're down too far.

We don't have enough time.

And my dad said, Gretchen, you will regret.

running that kind of a campaign.

You're going to live in this community for a long time.

You will regret running that kind of campaign.

I encourage you to try to win this and stay positive and we'll pull out all the stops.

What would it take?

And they said, well, if we do this, that, and the other thing, maybe, maybe, maybe.

And I got an attorney general to endorse me.

He was very popular.

I lost my hometown by two votes, but I won the other part of the district by 190 or something like that, and ended up winning.

And I've won every race since then.

But that lesson, that comment from my dad has always stayed in the back of my head.

You never regret being kind.

I was at the athletic club, I don't know, 15 years ago, and there was a guy walking through and he looked familiar and he said, well, hi, you know, representative.

And I was like, hi.

And my default, if I can't think of your name, is I'll throw my arms around you, you know, and hug you.

That's who I am.

And I was like, you know, he looks familiar, but I can't place him.

And I walked away and then I realized.

He was the architect of the slash and burn campaign against me from my Republican opponent.

And I walked away thinking, God, I don't like that guy.

And I thought, you know, rather be kind to someone I didn't mean to be than unkind to someone I didn't mean to be.

So you never regret being kind, I think, is good advice.

I have two follow-ups.

Number one is: that is so cool that your friend called you to say that.

Like, so many of us can't see the leadership potential in ourselves.

If you're listening and you, you know, who that friend is, call that friend.

If she says no, accept it.

But,

you know, maybe people need a little noticing of their potential.

And then

yeah, yeah.

And then what is the first thing?

Like, I need you to tell me.

So somebody's like, I think I should run.

Like,

do you email someone?

Do you stand on your corner?

Like, what is step one of, I would like to throw my hat in the ring?

I, you know, it's, it's getting active in the local party structure.

It is making sure you start to meet everybody and pulling all your friends and relatives in.

And one of the hardest things is raising money.

So you're calling all of your friends and family, people you've known for a long time.

That's where you start.

You know,

it's a quick, steep education, but there are lots of folks and organizations now that will help candidates who want to jump in.

We're doing a lot of training here on the ground in Michigan to help pro-choice Democratic candidates.

You know, we're always trying to encourage more women to jump in, but we train male candidates too, people who want to do this work on our, on the right side of the issues from our perspective, and we're training them.

But, you know, think organizations like Emily's List and Planned Parenthood Advocates, and they're just where the DGA ultimately and my governor's race, you know, they all were really important allies to helping build something I'd never done before.

And those things are now available and there's more of them now than ever.

So

it's daunting and it's not for everybody.

Every one of us can and should play a role in this government.

But for those who are willing to run, it can be incredibly rewarding.

I can tell you this.

I don't make a lot of money, but I wouldn't change a thing because I feel really lucky to be where I am.

And I know what I'm doing when I deliver a budget that feeds 1.4 million Michigan kids breakfast and lunch every day in school.

I know what I'm doing is making a difference and that's the best reward in the world.

Yeah, I think it was well say like recently we might not have the 10 commandments in our classrooms but we feed children for free every day like

which is more

christian i'm just thinking about how the parallels to you coming into office this second term where you have the holy trinity of all the power um structures that you earned through the campaigning and instead of even though michigan is it's not totally blue through and through you're a a mix, you passed a lot of very aggressive initiatives right away.

You were unapologetic in showing up there.

And it reminds me a lot of what Walls is saying when he's saying, you don't build political capital to hoard it, to save it so you can keep it.

You burn it to the ground to help people.

That is the model that you used.

To the person who's listening to this and is like, how the hell, what the hell is my life going to change anyway?

These people yelling at each other all the time.

What do you think that they, how will they change people's lives?

As you say, make lives better.

Tell us how it will practically affect Americans to have Harrison Walls in the White House.

Well, I think about one of my political heroes, Nancy Pelosi.

And

whether you love her or not, you better respect that woman because she has shown how to use power and how to use power to get things done.

Her book that just came out is...

Art of Power.

Yes, I highly recommend.

She and I were at an event together last night.

And, you know, understanding your power and being willing to use it, I think is

really important.

And for women of a certain generation, I think it's more challenging.

My generation, it's gotten easier.

And I know that the generations that follow will be even more bold.

But I always tell people, listen, I was...

elected to govern this state and to use every tool at my disposal to deliver on the agenda that I was elected on.

And I'm not going to ever apologize for doing exactly that.

And when I own my space, it's easier for Jocelyn Benson, our secretary of state, to own hers, and Dana Nessel, our attorney general, to own hers.

I know that with Nancy Pelosi using her power, that's why a million people in Michigan have health care today because she's the one that got the Affordable Care Act over the finish line.

A million people would not have health care today.

So I think about the threat of that all being stripped away with one candidate returning to the White House or the groundwork that can be done to take it the next step, which is what Kamala Harris and Tim Walls would do.

Think about reproductive rights.

I think about LGBTQ rights and the potential of future appointments to the United States Supreme Court or an agenda that comes out of Congress and hits a desk.

Who signs or vetoes that bill matters in our every single, everyday lives.

Affordable housing is something that I I know that the Harris Walls administration is going to work on, and that is a need in every community across this country.

And so these are the fundamentals, I think, that hit people at home where they are, keeping money in their pockets and having a way to get a good paying job, which is exactly what the Biden-Harris administration has laid the groundwork for and why we need to take it to the next step.

Thanks.

Thanks, Governor Whitmer, for leading with such effectiveness and boldness and kindness and joyfulness.

It's just, it's really beautiful.

Yeah, just speaking from like the perspective of an athlete who,

you know, there wasn't many people that I could look up to growing up as somebody in my position.

And I just

knowing what you've had to endure

from the right

and knowing that you stand in your power.

In spite of all that,

you know, I just think about our daughters.

I think about about

little kids growing up.

And I just, you know,

it's very rare to see a woman

deal with the kind of stuff that you and Vice President Kamala have to deal with.

And I just thank you for, in many ways, taking one for so many of us, taking one for the team, as we like to call it in sports.

You're such a badass, and we're so grateful to have you on this podcast and so grateful to have you in government and in governments like Michigan.

You're wonderful.

Thank you so much.

Coming from badasses like yourselves, best compliment ever.

Pod Squad, we will see you next time.

Bye.

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