Brené Brown & Barrett Guillen on Sisterhood & Digging Deep

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Last week on We Can Do Hard Things, we revisited our most mortifying stories.

You must listen to that episode if you have not yet.

And you need some lightness and a laugh.

Your calls are flooding in again and the voicemails about your mortifying stories are absolutely making our week.

So we thank you.

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At the top of that episode, that mortifying stories episode, Amanda mentioned that this type of sharing made her think of today's double date with Brene Brown and her sister, Barrett Guin.

It reminded her of this episode because Brene talks in this episode about how she shares with her her children all of the horrible things that she thinks in her mind instead of shielding them from her weirdest thoughts because she thinks that normalization is the antidote to shame, which is so important.

You must listen to that in this episode.

We keep so much from each other, but really what we should be doing is sharing all of our banana selves so that other people feel less bananas.

This was a favorite episode of ours because we at this pod like to celebrate all kinds of love, not just romantic love.

So today we celebrate a special kind of love that has always been the steadiest love and most long-lasting love of my life, which is sister love.

Brene and Barrett talk about the family of origin roles that they had to adjust in order to work together.

I am familiar with that.

And the two keys to working well with family.

We also ask one of our favorite we can do hard things questions.

How do we know when to dig deep or when to quit digging?

Somehow by the end of this conversation, every sister confessed her deepest secret fear about what the other sister might think of her.

And I kind of thought

that we would be relieving each other of those fears.

But what actually happened is that all the fears were confirmed.

Every single one.

You have to listen to this.

Okay.

I loved every minute of this sister double date and I hope you do too.

Thanks, Brene and Barrett.

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

Today is a double date,

but not the sort of double date we've done before on We Can Do Hard Things, because

we at this pod like to celebrate all kinds of love, not just romantic love.

So today

we are celebrating a special kind of love that is,

has always been the steadiest love and most important love of my life, which is sister love.

And this double date is with two of our favorite sisters in the world, Brene and her sissy, Barrett.

Dr.

Brene Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston, where she holds the Huffington Foundation Endowed Chair at the Graduate College of Social Work.

She has spent the past two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy, is the author of six number one New York Times bestsellers, and is the host of the weekly podcasts, Unlocking Us and Dare to Lead.

Brene's books have been translated into more than 30 languages, and the titles include Dare to Lead, Braving the Wilderness, Rising Strong, Daring Greatly, and and The Gifts of Imperfection.

Brene recently collaborated with The Tarana Burke to co-edit You Are Your Best Thing, Vulnerability, Shame Resilience, and the Black Experience.

In her latest number one New York Times bestseller, Atlas of the Heart, which has been adapted for television and is now streaming on HBO Max, Brene takes us on a journey through 87 of the emotions and experiences that define what it means to be human.

Brene lives in Houston, Texas with her husband Steve.

They have two children, Ellen and Charlie.

And

Barret Guin is the chief of staff for Brene Brown Education and Research Group.

With her team, Barrett supports both Brene and the organization by helping to prioritize competing demands, managing relationships, and building connective tissues and strategy across business initiatives.

Barrett holds bachelor's and master's degrees in kinesiology from the University of Houston.

After more than a decade in education in the Texas Panhandle, Barrett and her family moved back to the Houston area to join Brene's team in making the world a braver place.

Having the opportunity to work with her sisters every day has been one of the great joys of her life.

Outside the office, you can find Barrett spending time with her family, enjoying her daughter's games, eating her husband's famous burgers, floating in the water, or on the pickleball court.

Welcome, sisters.

Okay,

Brene and Barrett, the sisters.

This is our first sisters double date.

We're delighted.

Thank you both for joining us on We Can Do Hard Things.

There are so many parallels between our sister stories.

It just freaks us out.

Actually, right now,

Pod Squad, you can't tell, but like we all kind of look alike also.

It's very weird.

So, Barret, about a decade ago, you came to work with Brene during a transition time.

So you had just had your baby, Gabby.

You weren't sure you wanted to go back to teaching.

Brene's career was growing and she needed help.

So sister, my sister, Amanda, came to work with me about a decade ago.

She had just had her first baby.

She wasn't sure she wanted to go back to her law firm.

My work was growing and I needed help.

So

first of all, weird.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And second of all, all how do four people who are as wise as we are end up intentionally deciding to work with family

what are the risks

you know what it is this is my theory

there's a lot of good stuff that comes from it but maybe it's one of the gifts of doing all that shitty work you have to do

There's no way, right?

None.

I mean, how often are we the topic of each other like therapy sessions?

Often.

Yeah.

Like, so i i think yeah and maybe it's it works because

because of the work if you stay aware and you have great communication skills and love and respect being able to work with ashley and barrett because we have barrett has an identical twin sister who also works here but we don't work together every day she's a therapist and leads another another uh part of the company but

It's probably

one of the greatest gifts of my life to be able to work together every day with people I love in my family.

Having said that, how many companies do we go into where it's a total cluster fat?

Yeah, a lot of companies.

I spend 90% of my, of my time in organizations doing leadership work.

That's my primary thing right now.

And

in family-owned and run businesses, it's very rare,

very rare to see it working well.

It's the biggest biggest impediment to whatever metric they're setting for success.

Is it because they come in, it's with all their childhood wounds and roles, and then because they haven't done the work to free themselves of those things, they're enacting it in the daily.

Yes.

I mean, I think that's number one.

And with a close second is

I think you have to have both of these things.

And I think sometimes people think number two falls out of number one.

They're certainly related, but number two is a separate skill

One, they're tons of self-awareness about family roles, dynamics, history, who they are, how they survived in childhood, and how that is good and not good in adult relationships.

But then I think the second thing is

really

tremendous communication skills.

You can't have the second without the first, but you can do the first and not have the second.

Yeah.

So what, go ahead, Sissy.

I think that's so interesting because we talk a lot about how the family of origin is so hard because you can, you know, you can be 43, but when you're with family, you immediately revert back to your immutable 12-year-old role.

What roles did each of you have to

get over or let go to be able to work together so closely in your business?

It's like our life's work, Amanda.

That's our lives work.

That's our life's work.

Yeah.

And first of all, when she said, go ahead, Sissy, I'm like, no, I just went.

Call her that too.

Because that's my nickname in my family is Sissy.

And so,

like, my dad, you think my name is Brene?

I think you probably.

Hey, sis.

If he's mad, hey, sis.

And if not, hey, sissy.

I'm the oldest of four.

So, I mean, that says it all, kind of.

Massive co-parent

in the absence of some parenting, probably.

I think I was the peacekeeper.

I think I still have peacekeeping in me, making sure everybody else is okay and taken care of and cared for.

Yeah.

And I'm just like, I'm take care of everything, boss everybody, be resentful.

Yeah.

I think I wrote an Atlas of the Heart.

When things were bad, I was definitely the protector when things were between my parents.

I mean, like physically, everybody in my room, like, let's go.

And then when things were good, I was the protector in waiting because it would only take a second for things to switch.

And so when I was the protector, and this is still stuff I have to work on all the time.

So when I was the protector in waiting,

I was not fun because I was waiting for the wrong comment, the sideways glance that would set one of my parents on fire.

And so, when I was in protector and waiting mode, and everything was fun, I was on the outside and did not belong at all within my family because I, because I couldn't, I couldn't switch that quick.

So, I had to stay very serious.

And so, I can still really grapple with belonging issues with my family.

Like, I don't belong.

I'm, I caretake and I protect,

but I don't really, when things are fun,

I'm waiting.

Wow.

That's you.

That's you, sister.

She's sister is the Jack Nicholson of our family.

We're like, relax, have a joy, have joy.

And she's like, you need me on this wall.

Does the protector and protector in waiting resonate for you?

It does.

And I think it's also, it dovetails with that.

But I think the the identity that i

am

constantly my life work trying to shed is like the identity of a long-suffering

perseverator trying to adopt the belief that things can come easy to me and that i would still have the same value if they did

supernova sneaking out off screen

Whoa, say that again.

That's uncomfortable.

I'm trying to let go of the identity of the long-suffering

perseverator and I'm trying to embrace the belief that things could come easy to me and I would still have the same value

I don't know what you're talking about

sounds harsh

sounds like a bad deal that you got there sissy oh my god

yeah I have that are y'all Enneagram people

Of course.

Yeah, I'm a four.

Oh, you're a one, Brene, right?

And you're a six spirit?

Is that right?

I'm a three.

Glenn's a four.

And so

what is the age difference?

We are three years apart, but here's the difference.

I fell, jumped, whatever it was, into addiction very early at 10.

So while I'm the oldest sister,

my younger sister, Amanda, stepped stepped into protector very early because I was out to lunch, literally, and then throwing up.

I had the bulimia and then I alcoholism, all the things.

So she really stepped into

peacemaker, protector, on the wall.

And then the second I got sober, when I actually could start taking care of myself, she came on to work with me and, you know, be my on-the-wall Jack Nicholson of the world so

we chose jobs that reinforced our childhood roles in some ways okay i could never make the ages work

because i would have bet

everything

that you were the older sister amanda yeah

yeah isn't that interesting i wonder does it happen with families with addiction in it or mental health 100 it does all the time yeah

and i think it dovetails too with the kind of, again, I think my value is in my performance because I kind of saw that as I was like a kitten bringing little gifts to the door.

It was worrisome and troubling what Glenn was going through.

So I'm like, look at my A,

look at my prize, you know, like every.

if if if i bring this it'll all have the equilibrium right and so i continued to kind of see that as my value add, that I would bring those things and that that's where it came from.

So,

yeah.

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Barrett, what about your peacekeeping stuff?

Does that bring up challenges with work?

Because are you hesitant to

bring up problems or issues?

I'm not that Brene would ever

cause you any issues, but is it hard for you

in conflict to say what you need?

I don't think it's hard for me to say what I need with Brene.

I think it does show up for me in terms of

trying to make sure everybody has what they need and protect her at the same time.

I think for me,

the hardest problems that we've had at work have come from me trying to protect her from the pecking to death of what everyone needs, and not only in our organization, but everybody.

And so I think it's come from

me

trying to

protect her and trying to make decisions that are not mine to make,

but are hers to make, and making sure that I just have all the right information so that she can make the decision.

But I have found myself a few times just not letting the information get to her at all.

And it's caused some real hard times.

I don't know how she does it, actually.

Like, I don't really know how she does it.

I'm so intense.

And I'm under a lot of pressure all the time and i and and i don't know how you do it actually

i'm really grateful me too but i don't know how she does it because it's

yeah like yesterday we were all at the lake and we were packing up and i had been there for like nine days for spring break and i said i'm not going back to work tomorrow and she goes your choice strong choice but your choice just let me know so i can cancel all your stuff

but i i mean i knew in the back of my mind she was going to be here, but she, but she, but she would never say, like, maybe early on, she would say, look, you know, you got a lot of stuff on your schedule tomorrow and blah, blah, blah.

She would not react to that anymore.

Yeah.

She'd be like, all righty.

Or like, I'll be backstage.

I'm not going on.

I had a headache.

I don't feel good.

I'm scared.

I just want to go home.

And now I'm just like, okay, I've got our purses.

We can go.

Yeah.

And then it's so terrible because it's like a tricky parenting move.

It is.

It is.

It's been been done to me so many times.

No, no way.

Oh, my God.

Y'all do that too?

Look at Amanda's point.

Oh, this is like, this is old news for us.

I called my sister one time from the airport.

Now, this is on the way to fly to the librarians convention where I met Abby.

But I called her from the gate.

It was the beginning of the Love Warrior tour.

And I said, I'm not going.

I'm done.

I hate this job.

I say,

I'm quitting once a month.

Everything's too hard.

We do.

Everything's too hard.

It's all, what are we doing?

The amount of pressure, like the amount, it's ridiculous.

I don't know.

I have obviously.

I told you it was hard.

I believe y'all.

I mean, I don't think Amanda and I for one second would question the pressure or how hard it is or that you want to quit.

No, the only person I'd rather not be than myself is my sister.

That's the only thing.

Me too.

That's what I call her.

I said the only job that's harder than mine is yours.

Exactly.

So there's nowhere to go from here.

I called and said, I'm done.

I'm not doing this tour.

I'm not doing this life.

I'm not doing this job.

Will it be a big deal if I don't go?

Okay.

And she said,

oh, you cannot go.

You can, of course, you cannot go.

It will be a big deal.

But I will deal with the deal and you cannot go.

And I was, and then I just went because I felt like that was a parenting move.

Like, I don't know.

That's what I do too.

i went and god dang i love those librarians yeah and i met abby

so what if i had not gone oh my god so i have retroactive stress about that okay speaking of stress sister ask about eggshells okay this is this is a selfish move because it just personally was so huge to me but

you talk about how growing up it was a loving home and a volatile home.

And I heard you essentially say that a child who lives on eggshells becomes an adult who is fearful.

And

that shook me because I never saw myself as a fearful person.

And I've worked hard to not show my fear with outbursts and the kind of things that clearly require people to live on eggshells.

But I am afraid.

I'm afraid to ease up.

I'm afraid of mediocrity and of dependency.

I'm afraid that my inability to let go is suffocating myself and everyone around me.

I'm afraid that not being okay

is just the price I have to pay to make everything okay.

And

that

fear permeates everywhere in my life.

And I just wondered how that fear shows up in both of your lives in terms of

what that looks like.

Because fear can look like a lot of different things, right?

Yeah.

God, let me just

pause on the eloquence of that question and that thought.

I mean, God, that was so powerfully put.

That was so beautiful.

There's just healing in the way you pulled all that together and wove it together.

It was

I can answer, I can cry.

For me, I think how it shows up as I'm a number six on the Enneagram.

I worry about everything.

I, and I try very, very hard every single day to not pass that down to Gabby.

So I name it.

I mean, like, the best thing I can do for Gabby is just name it.

And I'm like, um, I'm going to crazy town right now.

So I just want to let you know that that's where I'm going.

And I'm going to talk through that with dad.

And then I'll be back and I'll talk to you about it in a minute.

So I just try really hard to name it.

But for me, constantly, I'm like, worst scenario all the time.

And one time my therapist was like, you know, when you go through all those scenarios in your head, it's why you're so exhausted because your body experiences those.

Yes.

So I was like, you don't know me.

That's my thing.

But yeah, so I just really try.

I know, like, I know that's where my, where I'm going to go first.

And I just really have to pay attention to it.

God.

Something that does serve you in childhood, though, that you doesn't serve you anymore in adulthood.

When you're a kid

living in a volatile environment, going through the scenarios is a form of self-care.

It's a form of planning.

And then you're an adult and you have to unlearn a survival mechanism

that worked for you in childhood.

That's, it's hard to de-program yourself.

It is.

And I'll tell you that as a social worker, one of the things I really appreciate about social work that's different from the allied professions like psychiatry, psychology, even counseling is this kind of person and environment perspective.

And

I'm not intellectualizing now, so I can don't have to talk about my stuff.

I'll go to that next.

But I will say one of the things that's interesting, because you mentioned it, Glennon, is that we really, as social workers

get very concerned about pathologizing and mental health diagnoses because

so much of what shows up as a diagnosable issue is an incredibly smart survival strategy when it comes to trauma or abuse or volatility or poverty or dehumanization, white supremacy.

I mean, these are how you stay alive.

And so then to turn them into, especially for women, pathologies.

And it's interesting.

There's interesting research being done, even looking at

borderline personality,

what people would call borderline personality disorder, bipolar disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, how if you pull back and look at the behaviors, how for many people, those behaviors were survival, even down to like the idea of splitting.

Like I'm being parented by Glennon and Abby, and I split as much as I can and say, well, she said it was okay if you, you know, I'm kind of manipulative that way because I'm trying to get something I need and know how to do that in a way that becomes immediately pathologized when you observe it in an adult.

For me,

there was a real physical protection issue for us growing up.

That's real.

And what you said that was so hard for me to hear, Amanda, was like kind of squeezing the life out of things, you know, with control.

And always, I mean, I write about it a lot in Atlas, always trying to predict, okay, I see this behavior, I heard this comment, I've got 10 minutes to get both the girls here, find Jason.

Like these were the things I did.

And so

when that's imprinted, I think, on our hearts and our minds with a seal of trauma, it's hard to be like.

They just want me here for my carefree attitude, my fun, loving personality, and my warm-heartedness.

Like,

it's not even about a question of, do I have value outside of that role?

For me, that's like the second question.

The first question is, is everything going to be okay if I get off the wall?

Yes.

Yes.

Because you feel, because when you actually get good results, good results, except for your life and your brain and your heart.

Right.

But like good safety, because it's dead inside.

But the results out there keep being successful, and you have worried and stressed and controlled your way to that result it is easy to think well if i let go i will stop earning good results with my sweat and anxiety and intensity it feels like it feels like oh that's a sweet idea for you exactly but you don't know what it takes Exactly.

It's like everyone else looks around and says, look how great it is.

You can let go.

And you're saying, it's only this great because I will never, ever let go.

I'm very curious about

how

I haven't read the research.

I probably need to look into it, but we should try to find somebody to talk about this.

But I don't know how you get over a childhood and a lifetime of hypervigilance.

Like

I could do it when I was drinking.

Yeah.

you know, or eating, or yeah, that's, that's, I could do it there.

But hypervigilance is a very difficult thing to let go of.

And it's why I think a lot of people are like, You want me to be vulnerable?

Like, I'm sending a black child out every day into the world.

You know, vulnerability is a privilege of white folks,

you know, but then at the same time, it's a very difficult thing because it's not like other, it's not like some people need vulnerability to access joy and love and belonging, and some don't.

It's that we need to figure out how to fight for a world where vulnerability is not a privilege and where hypervigilance is not rewarded or necessary.

You know, that's hard.

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How do you two, because we grow up a certain way, some of us pendulum parent, so we go the absolute opposite of what our parents did, which is actually not creative either.

It's just a reaction.

How do you feel like you're screwing your kids up in ways that you didn't predict you would?

That idea that adulthood or parenthood is looking both ways before you cross the street and then getting hit by an airplane.

It's like

is there anything unexpected that came that you weren't seeing?

Because I imagine you, you intentionally tried to parent differently than you were parented so as not to create the same issues.

Are there anything that turned out to be airplanes hitting you after you looked both ways?

I think we both

can be both at the exact same time.

keenly aware, especially as athletes, keenly aware of how fucked up the parenting was around that.

And then

be that.

Be that.

Be that.

But we don't act on it.

But when you're on the sideline, like, I, I mean,

like, I'll never forget the first time I took dad to one of Ellen's field hockey games.

And I, I mean, purposely did not tell, because I have so much.

Like, this is like, yeah, yeah, hard.

Like, he's hard.

Like, call the constable at the swim meet, kind of hard.

Like,

um, don't give him the starter's gun.

Like, just hard, you know and so

she's in the middle of this field hockey game and he gets up and starts walking the fence line behind all the folding chairs and i walk over and i'm like i'm not putting up with this this is it this is making a stand for everyone this has ever happened to in all of the world and i'm like dad what's going on he goes one this game looks violent to me Two, y'all are putting way too much pressure on these kids.

This is ridiculous.

This is high school sports.

You need to take a deep breath.

And, you you know, and I was like,

no, sir.

I couldn't even function.

And I'll tell you who is the athlete in the family that

really made it through was Steve, my husband.

He's like this empathy leading pediatrician.

And so when we would have the troubles that like, you know, I want to be out.

I don't want to play.

This is too hard.

Steve would be like, that's great.

That's okay.

We're just here to, you know, this is just fun.

And I'd be like, what the fuck?

I would have to just take deep breaths.

And he was like, that was great.

And then ended up raising like athletes because they loved it.

We, on the other hand, are saving for therapy because we have not caught in there yet.

No.

But we're really trying.

No, we played devil's pickleball this weekend and it was.

I threw a tantrum.

It's hard to play against your partners.

We We played Frankie and Steve.

I told Brittany, I was like, play the ball, not your husband.

Play the ball, not your husband.

Yeah.

And she, like, I was.

Oh, me too.

I was like, did you fucking turn around sideways and spin and hit it backwards?

No, sir.

I think this, I am pleased with my parenting because both of my kids are hardcore believers in therapy.

I feel like my work is done.

That's right.

If they just believe in the therapy, they can do.

Yeah, I love that you name it.

I love that because it's so freeing to me.

We don't have to get it all right,

but when we know we're getting it wrong, we can just tell them.

Right, right, right.

How I'm acting is not normal.

Like I am not, I'm doing my best with eating, with body stuff, with whatever.

And still, I know I'm modeling a million different things, but my kids know

when I'm doing it, that's mom stuff.

Like she's working on it.

So they're not thinking that's just normal.

Yeah.

That's it.

And I'll tell you one thing we are that I think we are so good at this generation.

Wow, we are normalizers.

So we came from a family where no one talked about bodies,

bathroom stuff.

Oh, yeah.

Sex.

Sex,

feelings.

And we are,

we are like normalizing maniacs.

Like, what aren't you saying?

Is there a smell that you're worried about?

Let's talk about it because that's so normal.

That's everybody.

Are you sure?

100%.

Yeah.

That's so normal.

Yeah.

I mean, like, we are normalizers.

And I started probably as like with them.

Oh, yeah.

We, and we've gotten to watch you raise your kids.

And so it was like, we've just taken a lot of notes along the way.

Or I have.

Ashley's daughter's older.

She's in between years, but mine's the youngest out of the girls.

So.

It's been really great to watch what you and Steve do and be able to

take it and run with it.

I think people do not understand that the opposite of raising a child that's full of shame is normalizing, normalizing.

I mean, normalizing things like hard things, like

sometimes when I spend time with your grandmother, I feel so grateful to be able to take care of her.

And sometimes I wish she would go ahead and die because I can't take it another minute.

And just one day know that if you're ever in a caregiving situation, that swing between it's my honor and holy shit, I cannot do this another day is super normal.

You just have to talk about it with somebody.

Got it.

Like just normalizing, normalizing.

Normalizing is fighting future shame.

It is as much as you could ever

protect against shame,

normalizing is doing that.

How is it with you too?

Because you're part very much in the middle of this sandwich time, right?

Where you're doing your best to to raise your kids, you're trying to have some sort of life on your own and marriage and all the things.

And then you're also dealing with parents who are aging.

And how is that on your sisterhood?

Because how are you doing this?

You're working together at unbelievably high levels of stress.

You're playing freaking pickleball on the weekends.

So you're choosing to hang out more on the weekends.

Sounds like.

Yes.

You're also caretaking as a team.

Do you caretake for your parents the same way that you work?

Yes,

the same roles.

We do.

I mean, like we, you know, it was interesting when we had to clean out my mom's house.

We all had very different ways of grieving that and wanting to go through things.

And

that was probably actually the hardest thing that we've had to go up against since our parents have kind of gotten older.

We've done a great job and we have amazing tools and language to talk about it and put it on the table and not ignore it.

And if we do try to ignore it between the three of us, us and Ashley, someone will put it forcibly on the table in front of us.

Yeah, there's, there will be no escaping the table when something like that happens.

And so that was probably one of the hardest.

She went into the hospital with like a minor thing and never went home again.

And so

her house was just like breakfast dishes in the sink kind of thing.

Six months before that, she was the controller for our company, like in a big accounting career.

But a combination of a physical illness, rapid onset, cognitive stuff, it was probably one of the hardest things I've ever gone through.

You yeah.

Yeah.

And so her house is just there, full of everything.

And our house has always been, since my parents' divorce, a very sacred place for not only us, but our kids.

Even if we didn't live there.

It was our home.

It was our home.

Like it was, and it was the only one

where that we ever had because we never felt connected to our homes growing up because they were just not, they were just hard.

And so,

like, I was like, we got to get this shit packed.

We got to pay somebody to do it.

We got to move out and put this house on the market right now.

And then they were like, well, you know, let's do this.

And no, she's never going to do this.

You know, this is never going to happen.

Like, I was like, pushing, pushing, do it, do it.

And, and they were like dragging their feet.

And I was like, wow, what good is going on?

They're just like, back off.

And then finally,

I go over there one day without them and just lay on the floor and cry for four hours.

And Steve literally has to pick me up and put me back in the truck and drive me home.

We all had to have that moment.

I think I had it in the closet.

Ashley had it in there.

Like, I think it was just like, once we had that moment and we were like, so this is grief.

This isn't about packing the house.

This is about, you know,

I'm not going to see her every day like I did before.

She's not going to pick Gabby up from school.

She's not no longer my emergency contact, you know, like all those things you don't think about.

And so I think once we were like, this is, this is really sad.

This is hard.

This is grief.

We've been shitty to each other.

All right.

What do we all need to get this shit packed up?

But what do we need before we get it packed up?

I think Ashley for a while wanted to touch everything and kind of go through, oh, I love this spatula.

I already make it, you know, it was like, and then, and then we both had the same.

Well, did you ever have the same?

I was like, oh, Gabby loved this fork that you expand and you poke people.

Like,

did you have that?

I don't think so.

I was running from pain by doing.

That's my, that's my forte.

That would be my due.

I just run from, yeah, run from feeling by doing.

It was once we named it that we were in grief.

And then even to the point where I was like, we just have to do what we can.

And Ashley's like, I want everything in this pile in storage.

I was like, for what?

And then she's like, it doesn't matter.

Oh, that's good.

And I was like, she's a therapist.

And I was like, so we stored that shit.

She goes,

yeah.

And we give each other permission.

Like, you know, my phone will blow up one day and I'll be like,

not me today.

Yeah.

I thank God for the circle back.

Like, thank God for,

man, I was such an asshole yesterday, but it's because

all the insurance stuff came in and I was really resentful that I'm in charge of her insurance.

The circle back is so beautiful because it just gives us permission to go back and say, dang, that's not what I wanted to say.

Or that's not who I wanted to be.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

The circle back and the it doesn't matter.

God, I love that.

When you're close with someone, giving yourself permission to not explain and just say,

it doesn't matter.

Put it in storage.

That's good.

What are you all

afraid?

Okay, if this doesn't make sense to you, just tell me.

But what I, sister and I, I feel like each have beliefs that we're afraid the other one thinks about us.

Okay.

So I'm- We've never told each other what they are, though.

I'm interested.

Well, I mean,

y'all have not shared them?

No, but I mean, I think my all-the-time underlying shame belief is I'm crazy.

That's what I grew up with since I was 10 years old.

I was in all the offices, on all the medicines, forever.

So, I'm always trying to convince people that I'm not crazy.

Like, I might be someone who would have a whole book that over and over again says, I am not crazy.

I am a goddamn cheetah.

Over and over again, right?

I might just say that repeatedly when meeting people: I am not crazy.

It's like a thou doth protest too much a little bit.

It's interesting because I was thinking about this this morning, sister, thinking my one of my shame believes is that my sister will think I'm flighty and I'm not consistent and I don't work hard enough and I don't, I'm not going to show up and I'm not on time.

Even though I'm in the shower this morning thinking, okay, I've been doing this job for 15 years and I don't think I've ever been five minutes late to anything

because I'm terrified of being late because that will show I'm the person I was before, right?

So, first of all, sister, do you think you know what you're afraid that I think of you secretly?

Yes.

Oh, I can't wait.

I am afraid that you think that

I am inventing the stress that I hold.

That I am making

things unnecessarily harder such that things are not working well

instead of what I'm trying to do, which is deal with all the hard stuff so that things work out well.

That's good.

Wow.

That was such an honor to watch.

Thank you.

Sister, do you kind of believe it a little bit about me?

No, I don't.

And in fact, it makes sense because I feel like our conflicts that we have, when I hear you say that, it actually made me sad to hear you say that I

think that you

could be flighty because I don't believe that for one hot second, but it makes sense when I think about the history of conflict that we have had.

It's preemptively defensive of that,

right?

So if I think that you might think I'm inventing the stress that I hold, then I have to push to you, no, look at this legitimizing factors of everything.

Yes.

I'm not, not, not that I want you to relieve that stress, not that I want you to feel bad for me, but that I don't want you to think that I'm in bed

my own

burdens.

And then vice versa, like with the way that you get in front of that.

So if we could just let down those two things, we probably wouldn't ever

have those issues.

What about you two?

Do you have any secret fears that the other beliefs might believe about you?

It's a hard question.

Yeah, it's a really hard question.

And I was like, just so intrigued watching y'all so beautifully, like, y'all are so sweet and respectful to each other and kind and loving that I just like didn't even think about what I was going to say.

No, I was just listening to you.

Yeah, me too.

I think those self-protective

thoughts

just go back so deep.

They run so deep and so, so hard.

Do you have one?

What I would say is:

I think that I worry sometimes that you think that you're not ever able to see the cracks kind of in our systems because I cover for everybody and do everybody's job.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, I think I think that

I just want to say a little bit.

I think you're inventing stress sometimes.

No, no, no, no.

So, Brene,

Brene, thank you so much.

I really needed to get that off my chest, but I was

going to say one thing if we're doing this.

That you have the ability to live six feet off the ground because I'm holding your ass up.

There we go.

There we go.

And there it is.

Okay.

Thank you, everybody.

Thank you for the honesty.

And it's true.

I do get to think about my feelings all day and look at hummingbirds and write poetry because you're on the wall.

Okay.

And I need you on the wall.

So then I shouldn't complain that you're having a hard time on the wall.

And Brene,

Brene,

you do sometimes feel like Barrett is covering up cracks that you need to see.

Right.

Okay.

All right.

I do.

All right.

Go ahead.

You haven't gone yet.

That needs a moment of reckoning.

Fuck, I don't want to go.

It's hot in here.

It's hot in here.

I'd like you to go.

I am so lightheaded.

I'm sweating.

Brane, I'm sweating too.

I am sweating.

I get it.

No, I feel lightheaded.

I don't like,

I feel like we're on the beginning of the roller coaster.

What is the question again?

What do you secretly think that Ferris

might believe about you?

That you're always trying to

make a case against with everything you say to her.

Okay.

I'm so nervous.

I can't believe you fucking wore a turtleneck.

You should have known who we were talking to here.

I guess I have two things.

I worry that you think that

I

am never

content

or

happy or pleased because I set the bar so high.

And then I also can worry sometimes, but this is lasso.

Like,

sometimes I worry that people don't believe me when I say

I can't do anymore.

But I don't think that's about you because you're usually the first one that says,

she's not fucking kidding.

You know, you're usually the one that says, like recently, I had to cancel a big event.

Like I was headlining a big event.

And I didn't know what was wrong.

I thought I was crazy.

Like I actually thought I was crazy.

Like, really, like, talking to Steve about, like, do I need to go into like meninger, like, some kind of inpatient thing?

What do I need at this point?

Um,

I was having a ton of anxiety, and the only thing that counted the anxiety was depression.

And there were a lot of hard things going on in the world, and then also at home.

And then

I

coughed, and Steve was like,

that doesn't sound good.

This was when you said,

you cannot do this event.

And everybody was like, she has to do the event.

And you're like, she's not doing the event.

I don't care.

You know, she's not doing the event.

And this is going to be the hardest, one of the hard calls that we have to make, but she can't do the event.

But then it turned out I had, this was like two weeks ago, three weeks ago, that I had pneumonia.

Wow.

And so my heart was racing because it was doing the work, the work that my lungs couldn't do.

And then the depression was I just wasn't getting a lot of oxygen.

You know, it was just, I was sick.

When we were having that conversation, she said, if I felt physically the way I do mentally right now, there's no way I could get out of bed to go do this.

I said, that's all you should have to fucking say.

That's right.

You should not have to say anything else.

You should not go.

Because if you felt that way mentally,

you're just going to come back even worse than when you went.

And it was to the point where I was like, am I going to be able to get on stage and do anything?

Or am I going to like, is something bad going to happen?

You you know have you ever felt like that glennon

i once burne

went on stage with a port in my arm

full of iv liquids because i had to get on stage i was already there but i was so sick so there was thousands of people there they could only get the iv to me with 12 minutes left before I went on stage.

So they pumped me full of 12 minutes, didn't have time to take out the port.

So I had to go on stage with a port in my arm.

Does this make any sense?

That's so hard.

Right.

God, that's hard.

Jesus.

And then I walked off stage and they had the thing and then they pumped me right back to give me the rest of my IV.

But I think what you said is so important to everyone.

But what you just said can apply to everyone.

Brene, you said,

I

worry

that people won't believe me when I say I can't do anymore.

And it's true.

People don't believe you.

People don't believe me.

And also,

every now and then, Barry will be like, fuck your dig deep button.

Your dig deep button is the worst part about you.

And I was like, what?

And she's like, no, it's just you've got a level of go.

You know, I always think about, you know, Stapling Abby's head together and putting her back in the game.

Like, I do have a level of go that is.

Your dig deep button is your superpower and your kryptonite.

yes yeah it is because we act like there is no cost to that like yes

that's what we say that like we'll we'll just find it we'll just find it guess where you're gonna find it you're gonna excavate digging deep and you're gonna take from over here and i do that shit all the time and you know what where i take from my marriage

okay yep it's coming from somewhere but we just turn that part off we just say who i am is i dig deep not i steal soil from where it rightfully belongs.

If we said it that way, it would seem less valorous and we wouldn't keep doing it.

Yeah, it sounds like shit when you say it that way.

But it's like, do you ever like, I'm just gonna, Glennon and Brene, like, do you ever feel like, you know, if I didn't do another thing, I've contributed a lot and I've made this world a fucking greater place.

I feel it deep in my bones.

I am Joni Mitchell Midway Down the Midway song over and over again.

I feel so close to it.

I feel like

all what we talk about all the time is what is enough, enough, enough, enough, enough.

Yeah, I do feel that way.

That there's a time that is coming where

I don't know.

It just is just going to feel different.

I don't know exactly what it's going to look like, but there's not going to be a lot of more digging deep.

What I want to say to both of you is I love this conversation so much and I love you both and respect you both so deeply.

I think the whole world's going to be watching Atlas of the Heart on HBO Max.

All three of us have had real

beautiful and difficult conversations as a result of watching, as you people always do with your work.

It's exhausting.

As you people also do, yeah, with your work.

It's exhausting.

I will say, just before I jump, it's been such a pleasure to watch our teams so support each other.

And I'm like, so grateful every time i get to talk to amanda or email amanda about something crazy that's coming up so thank you when people say stand on the shoulders of others like i feel like the way you guys support each other has been so amazing and so it's been really fun to watch

garrett i admire you very much and i see you the sister keeper in me season honors the sister

and we are going on vacation without the other sisters so yes high five right now get ready get ready for it i'll plan it

i'll bring the poetry and pictures

i don't think we're invited sis oh that's right that's right okay um love you both love you all we will see you next time on we can do heart thanks

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things.

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We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, and this show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.

I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle.

I walked through fire, I came out the other side.

I chased desire,

I made sure I got what's mine.

And I continue

to believe

that I'm the one for me.

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line.

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on map.

The final destination.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be be loved, we need to belong.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a heart pain.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem,

sometimes things fall apart.

And I continue

to believe

the best

people are free.

And it took some time.

But I'm finally fine.

Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are back.

A final destination

lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places

they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we

can do hard again.

Adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

We might get lost, but we're okay.

We've stopped asking directions

in some places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to belong.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do hard

things.

Yeah, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we

can do all earth things