Our Parenting Advice: Raising Teens, Family Anxiety & Decision Fatigue

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Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things, the place where we do hard things or we hardly do things,

depending on what day it is.

Today is a day that makes us so

happy because it's the day that we talk to you.

Let's jump into some glorious voicemails from these

hilarious, deep.

Hi, Glennon, Abby, and sister.

My name is Patty.

and I have a question.

I was wondering if you are ever going to talk about

teenagers.

Teenagers, I'm having such a hard time with my daughter.

I just I feel like I'm losing her.

She ebbs and flows to me, but she's mostly gone.

There's also this other vaping thing that's going on now with the teenagers.

Like everybody's on this vaping thing because it's a cool thing.

So she comes up to me and says, mommy, I'm going to a party.

She's 14 with my friends at school.

And

I'm letting you know there will be vape.

I'm not going to vape, but everybody around me is going to vape.

So I just said, okay, okay, baby.

That's what I said.

But I'm just wondering if I'm doing the right thing.

I mean, I was not prepared for that.

I always thought, oh, my daughter, never.

She's so sweet.

Thank you so much.

Your podcast is a changer oh patty i love patty i love patty i think patty's nailing it i did too she thinks that she's losing her daughter but her daughter came to her and told her that there was going to be vape there did you tell your parents that there was going to be alcohol at parties i lied so much all i did was lie all the lies all the lies and then i would also like to talk for a second about the intellectual dishonesty of the shock when they found us in our lives.

Like, I mean, my parents would drink at home.

They'd be with their friends and they would drink.

My dad would tell stories about how he drank like in all through high school.

And then we'd lie and say we did nothing.

And then when we got in trouble, it would be like utter shock.

Like,

I can't believe it.

Can you not?

Can you not believe it?

Like, that just doesn't feel honest.

It feels, you're right.

It feels dishonest because it is.

Their shock, I think,

I know that this is true for me.

The shock and disappointment

is the thing that they hung their hats on.

I know for me that if they just like they said, I'm just really disappointed in you, that was supposed to keep me in line.

Well, I have been writing poems about the word liar

because I

feel like parents who

are

shocked and angry that their kids are lying

is so interesting.

It's like

being shocked that your kid is like breathing in air.

I don't think it's an individual responsibility of a child

to always tell you the truth.

All they're doing is reading the room of what is acceptable that you have presented to them.

That's right.

What are you telling me I should be saying in this context?

Exactly.

The amount of times that a child tries to tell the truth, they're just learning.

They're learning their world.

And so if a child tells the truth through their emotion, through their anger, through their words, through their whatever, and the parents react horrifically to that, the child is learning, oh, I see, we lie here.

So I don't think we should call kids liars.

Like, I think we should just call kids...

Humans who are in a situation where they don't feel like their whole truth is is safe.

It's attachment theory shit, right?

So, Patty, freaking amazing that your daughter came to you and said there's going to be vape there.

I mean, it's just, it's kind of funny, too.

It's just all quite funny.

Are they smoking like tobacco through vape or both?

Or can you do both?

You can do either or.

Yeah.

So like some are weed and some are it's like nicotine.

And it's it's an equally horrific, nefarious

attempt, again, from big tobacco to target children because a lot of the vape.

They're remarketing it now.

Yeah, it was spun as safer, of course, as always.

And then they all have flavors.

So they're like

blueberry, rock and cherry.

It's all marketed completely towards her.

You have cotton candy vape.

You're like, oh, I'm pretty sure that was for a 12-year-old.

Can we talk about the most important sentence and I think her question?

The, I'm just wondering if I'm doing the right thing.

No.

I'm losing.

I was like, that's what I wonder if I'm doing that.

I just feel like I'm losing.

I just feel like I'm losing her.

Yeah.

And I think that that is essentially the most tragic thing about being a parent.

Is that that's the goal?

That's, well, that is the reality.

Yeah.

But I will say this to Patty.

This is the thing I come back to as a parent of teenagers who

over time a million times have felt like this is it.

I'm losing them.

Just by their energy, their vibe, they used to tell me they don't, all the different million things.

Is I think that the best approach that I have come up with is

we must tolerate the ebbs and flows of losing them because that is individuation.

That is what they have to do.

That is their developmental job is to try to survive on their own for what's coming.

So it's the vibe of telling yourself over and over again that that is not only okay, that means you're doing it as a parent.

The fact that they can experiment with disappearing from you and needing you, it means you're doing it right.

So it's that tolerance with a steadfast commitment commitment to they might leave but i will not

like a

a tree in the ground their job is to throw at you that they don't need you their job is you i love you like their job is go away for god's sake don't leave yeah the crisis is when a parent actually doesn't have the maturity to not take it personally

yeah

and to think they don't want me so i'm not gonna show up for them or when we we do that energetically, right?

But like, I think that if we can embody the vibe of, yes, that's your job, you go ahead and go, I am going nowhere.

I am the touch tree that you can continue to come back to if you're gone for a day, a week, a year, whatever it is.

That's how we've made it through.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, you just actually, that helped me a lot right now because I'm actually feeling a lot of this with our kids right now.

It's just like the leaving, and I didn't get as much time.

And so I'm holding on for my dear fucking life over here and it is true and i think that i can put more energy in the staying and not going anywhere than the worrying about the leaving because if you chase them nope nope you got to be a tree yeah you got to be a tree no chasing no roots don't run

roots don't run so what you're saying is their job is to be alternatively lovey and an asshole because that's part of it.

And so what you need to not get confused about their job is so when they're being an asshole to you or they're ebbing and flowing or how Patty put it nicer, ebbing and flowing, you're not reacting to that.

You're just saying, oh, look, you're doing your job.

I'm not reacting to that as if it's a personal affront to me.

I'm just saying steady in my job and we'll be here.

I am a tree.

I am a tree.

I am a tree.

My teenagers are the weather.

Yeah.

Like sometimes they're going to shine.

They're going to shine on me.

I'm not taking that to you personally because tomorrow they're going to storm on me.

There's going to be a tornado.

But I am a tree and I am rooted and I am going nowhere.

And one little thing that Glenn and I started doing as a kid started to get old enough, we stopped going into their bedrooms

at night to say goodnight.

And so we stay in our bedroom.

And it was kind of hard at first, but eventually they started to come to our bedroom to say goodnight.

And that's now our dynamic.

We don't encroach on their space, but every single night, these kiddos show up so that they can say goodnight and talk to us and then they tell us shit because it's on their time.

They've chosen it.

This is a hack, I swear.

And it works for everybody because Abby and I go to bed.

We're in bed by 7.30.

Like after dinner.

I mean, that's weird, right?

We're tired.

True's our fucking time.

And standing all all day.

Gotta lie down.

And there's something energetic about teenagers being able to have their own.

If I go into my kids' room, it's just like everything shuts down.

It's like their cooking method there.

Like, I don't know what they're doing that makes them so sketchy every time I walk in.

It's like a record scratch.

Like,

it's like, it's like, oh, God.

I don't know.

There's no nervous systems that are regulated when I walk into their bedrooms, right?

But we just sit there in our bed and we watch our TV and little, every single night they trickle in they tell us their things they sit on the bed they need their own agency and their own power to come to us yeah so there's something in there and the dogs and they the dogs are there oh god if you don't have a dog

if you don't have a dog and you're raising a teenager they express their physical hugs need for physical touch with the dogs.

It's a little bit more complicated with the older.

Like I actually just hugged Tish as an experiment the other day.

She came into the bed and sometimes I like lean over and I give them like fist dabs so they don't have to walk all the way around the bed to give me a hug.

But this day,

Tish came in and I just was like, oh, I'm gonna hug her and not let go and see what she does.

What'd she do?

And so I hugged her, I embraced her and she goes, is everything okay?

And I said, yeah, I was just seeing how long it would take for you to notice that I'm just holding the hugs.

And then, what did she say?

And then she's like, You're a really good hugger.

She said, I'm a great hugger.

She said, I needed that.

Yeah.

I know.

Anyway, Patty, I don't think Patty needs our advice.

I think Patty's crushing it.

Patty is a tree.

Yeah.

Patri.

Patri.

I know.

And so I just said, okay, baby, that's what I said.

I think that that's a great thing to do.

Because also,

what she taught her daughter is that she is a safe place for the truth.

That's all it was.

Safe place for the truth.

And to be clear, I'm not sure it was the whole truth.

She said everybody there is going to be vaping, but not me.

But what's more important?

That she's not doing that or that she's sharing with her mom.

She's testing the waters.

I have one more.

She's testing the waters.

Can I hear it?

I feel like this one's really important.

Okay.

This is another teenage chimp that we told our kids in a very confusing conversation.

As they they move into teenage world, we are

their next best move.

Okay, so like

when they are in a situation and they have done a dumbass thing that we have told them not to do a million times,

now that we are in teenage land, what we are here for is for in every dumbass moment

to be their best resource for how to make it better in the next moment.

that's right in the future moment we are no longer going to go backwards with them we are no longer going to say you dumbasses why did you do that thing that we told you not to do we want to be your resource when you are sitting at that party and your friend has had too much to drink and they're in trouble and you are in trouble we want to be the call you make when you know that my parents are going to help me figure out how to make this better in the next step

Because so much shit goes wrong when they don't make that call and then they're in the circumstance and they are continuing to make wrong decision after wrong decision because they don't have their wits about them.

Because it's cyclical.

It's like it's the parents who are the quote-unquote strictest are doing it

in the light most favorable to them out of a real desire to protect their kid and have their kid not get harmed or not get in trouble or not get all of the bad things happen.

but ironically if you've made it so costly to admit that you've done the bad thing

then then they're not going to use you to get out of trouble that's right so so you have to do what you're doing and say like here are the ways for you to not get yourself in trouble and when you do I want to be the one that you call.

We said, don't like this.

When I say it's a confusing conversation, it's intellectually dishonest.

that's why it's confusing but being human is intellectually dishonest right so so parents who are just like that strict it's like relying on abstinence in schools or like it's just it doesn't it's not realistic so basically it just makes the person teaching it feel better yeah yeah exactly by pretending like everything's so black and white so basically our conversation is don't do that

If and when you do that.

Right.

So next Tuesday when you do that.

Yeah.

Because we know what it's like to be human because we were it.

But I do think that there's a version of teenage parenting where your kid gets in trouble and their first thought is one of two things.

The last person I need to find out about this is my parent.

Conversely, the only person who can help me with this shit is my parent.

Exactly.

Because we have mentioned, like, look, we won't be upset if you come to us.

If you choose not to come to us, you're fucked.

More shit happens because you choose not to come to us.

That's when you're going to be fucked.

Yeah.

Like you get a pass.

First go around, you'll get a pass.

But if you fuck up two back-to-back things because you didn't come to us, that's when you're gonna be really in trouble.

And it won't even be with us.

It'll just be with life.

Yeah.

Like you'll just be fucked in general.

We are your only intermediary between yourself and life right now.

Yeah.

Use it wisely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I feel like teenagerhood is when you really have to embody

the truth of what it is to be human.

Yeah.

You can pretend they're not human until being teenagers.

And then it's time to remove the abstinence program, the

dare program from your curriculum, all of the things that don't work that have to do with shutting down human nature and just work with human nature.

That's right.

Although we do need to do an episode on fentanyl because that is the one we have had very real conversations with our kids about that, about like how when mommy and daddy were growing up, you could experiment with the quote unquote not bad drugs.

Like you really could.

It was was fine, whatever.

And that we are in a brave new world where like one experiment with that will kill you.

So if you're going to do that, you need to do it from these kinds of places and not these kinds of places.

So let's do an episode that we should do.

That is the

trick of that.

They actually can't be the same humans that we were in some respects because they could die.

in a hot spot.

But there's

ways around that too.

Like our kids all have fentanyl tests.

We have Narcan, Narcan, which is the antidote to a fentanyl overdose.

Lots of states are giving away Narcan for free.

Yeah.

You need Narcan.

The fentanyl strips aren't always accurate, though, so you have to be really careful with those.

But we'll do a whole nother episode on this.

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

Love it.

Let's hear from somebody else.

Hi, Gwenny, Abby, and sister.

My name's Lauren.

I'm a mother of five-year-old twin girls.

One of them is very confident and never abandons herself and is just very comfortable and confident in the person that she is.

And then her sister is

not as confident and is always looking outward to please other people.

And so my question is, how do I validate her and let her know that I'm proud of her,

but also not make her a people pleaser?

So thank you again for everything you do.

Appreciate everything.

Bye.

Okay, I'm going to say what my reaction to this story, and then you guys just do yours, which I think will be more logical.

But my first thought when I heard Lauren say these things about her twins was that if Lauren were on my couch and she were my friend,

I would say, can you just try throwing those stories away about your girls?

Can you just even because when we just have a story about our kid, we are only seeing or looking for evidence that supports that story.

That's right.

And then we say that to them in a million different ways.

We don't have to say it like this.

We say it with our body.

We say it in the way we react.

If I were Lauren, what I would do to try to detox myself from these stories that I've written about my girls is that I would tell myself the opposite ones.

Yeah, that's good.

I do that with the kids.

I'm like, oh, no, no, you're the athletic one in my brain.

Yeah.

Not whatever.

I wouldn't be as worried about the details of this.

What I would really be worried about is just maintaining these stories and what they will keep Lauren from seeing in each girl.

And if the girls pick up on these stories about themselves, what it will do to them

in the long run.

That's good.

And by the way, Lauren, I want to say that because I've done this to all my children.

So I'm not saying like, this is what I have learned.

through personal experience that when we have stories about each kid, that that helps them individuate at first and then fucks them because they feel like they have to stay inside this little box and the other kids feel like they are not that thing.

Yeah.

And it's, I think from a human perspective, we all like to put people in our little categories and stories and boxes.

It makes us feel safer.

And especially when we're raising kids, it also like, it gives you an orientation.

Like, oh, okay, so my kids like this.

So this is how I have to be and this

I have to turn towards them.

So I totally agree.

Like I was labeled the athlete and I've been trying to unwind from from that label pretty much since I started playing sports.

Cause there's so much responsibility that I had to carry as this one thing.

You identify with the thing, and then you squash the rest when you think that's your single story.

So, like, Lauren's first twin, if she finds out that her family thinks she's the confident one,

she will squash forever any sort of doubt, any sort of, because this is how she has earned her identity in the family.

That's right.

So, but that's not how humans are.

No human is a story.

Each of Lauren's twins are the whole shebang of the human experience.

So if

the confident one believes she's earning her attachment through confidence, she will never admit to doubt, which is a very important part of being human and making good decisions.

If the other one thinks she's a people pleaser, she will not find that inner confidence that she has as much as the other twin.

So see, what do you think?

And not for nothing.

I mean, I trust Lauren.

And so if she's saying the one that's a people pleaser is looking outwards.

I just wonder, it would be interesting to play with that story and be like, are we sure

that that's the case?

Because it could be that the one who presents as confident has determined, and rightly so,

that that is what is more pleasing to her mother.

Right.

And which we can see by this because Lauren's worried about the other one that isn't present the right way.

So it's not always clear that the presenting symptom

is actually the crux of the problem.

The one that's quote unquote most confident and outgoing could be doing that precisely because it is pleasing.

Absolutely.

And the other one

could be actually most comfortable in her own skin and doesn't give a shit that the other one's hustling so hard to be so pleasing to other people.

But the only way that you make sure that that that's the case is by not

making a hierarchy of those.

By not being like, this one's better and this one's better.

Exactly.

This one is the aspirational one and this one is the.

And I also think, I have two things to say.

One,

I think

in terms of the people pleasing piece,

it's hard because you want them to live from the inside out, not the outside in.

That's at least how I want our kids to experience their lives and the world.

It's just not always possible.

For real, yeah.

Yeah, we are always, and I speak for myself as a people pleaser.

I'm in therapy now, trying to orient to trying to figure out, okay, where is the, where does this thing start?

Where does the energy start?

I want it to start from inside.

I don't want it to be outside in.

And that's my personal journey, my personal work.

And so I don't think it necessarily needs to be classified as like a not as good as the confident piece.

That's just like one thing.

My second thing is, I think we have to be very careful with the word or the statement, I'm proud of you

to our children.

That really jumped out to me.

And

what a huge responsibility.

that is to put on our children.

Because when you say, I'm proud of you, what that then gets interpreted in the body and the mind of this child is, oh, I just did something that made my parent proud.

In and of that statement is a people pleasing request.

You are saying to your kid, I am requesting that you please me.

And I will tell you when you have pleased me with these words.

I'm proud of you.

And so I think that we have to be very careful when we use that word.

And I really try to, I talk to glenn about this a lot when when ammo walks off the soccer field and she's had a great game i'm just like wow i'm so happy for you

I am so happy for you that that game happened and that that moment happened or that play happened.

And I don't always get it right because it's so, it's just like at the tip of my tongue because I do have pride in me because I'm a human and I have an ego and I'm like, fuck it, my kid just killed it on that field.

I have it in me.

But I think we have to be very careful how we communicate that with our kids because it is this responsibility that they will carry forever, which is in, you know, in turn, we don't want our kids to be living their lives so they can make us proud.

That is not what the converse of that is true.

Like the veiled threat is, yes, well, I know I killed it out there, and therefore you're proud, which means if I have a shitty game next week and I come off the field,

you have to not be as proud as that.

That's right.

So I've started saying, trying to do that because of what you always say about proud is that,

and my kids are different.

So it's not like the same thing.

Exactly.

It's not like one thing is going to apply to all of them.

I can't just have a meter where it's like, this is good and this isn't and this is pride and this isn't.

So I've just started saying like if they have a test or something,

they'll tell me, oh, I got a X score.

And I'll, and I'll just say, how do you feel about that?

Yes.

Yeah.

Like not reacting if it was like a 10 out of 10 or a six out of 10.

And for one kid, it might be like, I feel good about the six out of 10.

I'll be like, awesome, great.

And the other one might get a nine out of 10 and be like, I don't feel good about that.

And I'll be like, man, that's tough.

You know, so I'm reacting to their feelings so good to their own thing

instead of an arbitrary, like,

this is my personal response to your grade.

That's weird.

It's weird.

It's like, it's, it's a revelation of values.

So every time a parent says, I'm proud of you, what they mean is, I have a value,

a personal

personal value that you have just met.

And that in itself is what attachment is, right?

It's like, oh, that thing I do makes my mom matches what she thinks is important.

I don't think it gets the kid to understand what they think is important.

And everything is reaction.

I mean, this reminds me of Amma.

She just got a certain grade on a group project

And she was delighted with the grade.

She got, did I tell you the story?

She got on.

Oh, but I'm laughing because I know it from my own home.

Yeah.

So she got on a call with the group, her group at school, which she thought was going to be celebratory.

And she said, Mom, they said we got an 89.

What are we going to do about it?

And Amma thought,

get cupcakes?

I don't know.

But like,

she just couldn't believe how differently people could receive the same information,

which is really important to remember.

Went home and their parents were like, we are not proud.

Yeah, and we were like, oh, that sounds 89 feels like so many number.

Like, that's so much out of 100.

Yeah.

So

the point being,

that's why that question of yours is so brilliant, because

it is calling forth an internal reaction in your kid and then helping support that as opposed to blessing it in line with my values or not.

It's very cool, sissy.

I love it.

And to be fair, the answer is usually like,

yeah, right.

You know,

it's not like I'm calling forth a hell of a lot.

Yeah.

Listen,

you're not responsible.

You're not responsible for bringing it forth.

That's their effing business.

You have called it.

You have called it, and that's all you can do.

i give you a d minus on your bringing forth yeah and i don't know if people have seen this out there but um i've seen some videos online about it and i think about this all the time that when your kid comes home from a test and they you know they're talking about the the grade no matter what it is complimenting their effort as opposed to their intelligence, especially when they're super young, it enables them to understand.

If you tell a kid that they're smart when they're young, they'll work less hard.

If you tell a kid, I really loved how hard you worked, and they worked really hard for it, they will actually, I think, develop the skills because they get reinforced with the work ethic rather than just, oh, I'm smart.

They are afraid of revealing that they're not smart, which is even scarier than the not working hard.

That's right.

Because their kids who view themselves as really smart are very, very much in danger of not challenging themselves because they know when they do a harder thing they are more likely to fail at it initially and they don't want to fail because and the studies have shown this because then it will confirm to the people who've been telling them they're smart that they were wrong about that yes that's why i won't go on make it about effort yeah they will challenge themselves that's why i won't go on celebrity jeopardy I'm like, God, that was hilarious.

If people tell me that they like me because I do wild things that make no sense and are outside my comfort zone.

If that is what people, then maybe I would have been like, Okay, I'll go on Celebrate Jeopardy.

No, no, no, no, no.

What people tell me is some things, and some people think I'm smart.

I'm not gonna go on Jeopardy and prove that I don't exactly know where any countries are.

I can't lose that identity, which keeps me sometimes from doing things that would actually make me smarter.

Screw it.

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Let's listen to the next one.

Hi, Glennon and Abby and sister.

My name is Heather,

and I didn't know if you all have any advice for what I think many people are calling the parenting decision fatigue and this super complicated risk assessment you have to do for the most trivial of choices for your kids from everything from school to getting together and it's just exhausting.

I'm just downright weary of the need to make these risk assessments on an hourly basis as a parent.

I know I'm not alone.

I'm just so tired and I didn't know if you all have any advice.

Oh, Heather.

I am with you.

Are we a little out of this?

I think we're maybe not as much of in this moment as sister is because

I think when they get a little older, they're doing a lot of their own risk.

What is your reaction to this?

I feel like we're just entering it.

I feel like I'm at the precipice of it.

And I feel like Heather might be right smack in the middle of where my kids are and your kids are because it's developmentally appropriate that they do different things farther away from you for longer periods of time that are inherently more risky.

And what is

where's the line between letting them fly and being

aiding and embedding their undeveloped brains to do dumb stuff.

Yeah.

So I get that.

It's weird to allow your kids to do things that you know aren't good ideas.

Here's the other thing, Heather, and this is something that Glennon and I have been talking about a lot recently.

And it's this idea of

oftentimes there's a parent who really thinks about the full-on risk.

And then there's another parent who doesn't maybe think about it as much.

And one of the things that happened is that I came into the kids' lives a little bit later.

And so Glennon took on

taking on the risk assessment for the family.

And she was beautiful at it.

And I think as time goes on, you just get fucking exhausted.

It's the, you know, this parenting decision fatigue.

But I came on board and I was like, oh, parenting is about this risk assessment.

Like, I have to be constantly making this risk assessments.

But Glennon has been going through it for so long that I think that you are a little desensitized to the risk assessment, especially as they've gotten older.

And I don't know if you would agree with that.

No.

So are you taking it on more, Abby?

I think that I have been.

And it's not because, and maybe it's not because you're desensitized.

Maybe you're just like allowing them to individuate better than I am.

No, it's because I have reordered in my head what risk assessment is.

It's because when they're little,

for me, risk assessment was risk of outer danger.

Cars, seatbelts, strangers, risk of injury, risk of whatever.

Now I weigh all the time psychological risk of control because there's a way you can go, a road you can take, which is my job as a parent is to minimize the outer world's risk to my child.

And that is where we get Rapunzel and Tangled and the wicked mother who's like, you know, keeping her child away from the entire world.

So I've just added to my risk assessment the risk of over-controlling them and what that will do to them psychologically, what that will do to my relationship with them.

My risk is just widened.

If you think I'm relaxing for one second, you don't know your wife.

I've just added more risks to my risk assessment.

It's a little bit like Patty when we were talking about like the risk of me coming down so hard and making all of these things totally illegal to you is that you won't come to me

when you need help.

Exactly.

Like the risk always turns and comes back on itself.

But there's no black and white.

There's no, oh, okay, I can choose to keep you sheltered from the outer risk.

There's no risk to that.

There's also risk to that.

Yes.

Can I ask you a follow-up question?

Yes, please.

So, okay, this is very interesting.

I have never thought of it like that, like you just explained to it, like the risk of over-controlling our teenage kids.

So

my question is, do you loosen the need to consider or think about or ruminate about the physical risk, the cars, that risk assessment of what the world can do to them?

Do you loosen your thought process on that because you know that I'm covering it?

Probably a little bit, maybe, but what I want you to know about my personal approach as a parent of teenagers who are out in the world doing dangerous things, who are in cars, who are out at night, who are at schools where we're in a country where we will not protect schools or teachers or students from gun violence, from all of the risk that they're involved, is that my entire strategy is to just fucking go dead inside.

Like, I'm serious.

I'm not trying to be cute.

I'm not trying to, like, I make the decision.

I know that I cannot live out of fear.

I know I have to let you walk out the door.

Internally, I am not handling that well.

I have no strategy for making it okay.

I feel

like terrified and sick inside and angry that I live in this world where I have to be so scared all the time.

Like that's my strategy.

And knowing that I, yes, I have to because this is their world, their life, like we can't rapunzle them.

So I'm overriding my own terror and anxiety.

And in that way, a little bit instincts, although I must have a deeper instinct than fear that knows because if if my truest instinct was keep them rapunzeled that's what i would be doing yeah so i must have an instinct that's deeper than the fear one yeah the only thing more damaging to them than sending them out into a terrifying dangerous world

would be locking them up away from it is not sending them into a terrorist terrifying dangerous world and that's why it's fatigue right it's fatigue overriding all of those feelings it's not just the decision-making process it's the exhaustion that comes from the inner turmoil of knowing like, oh God, this is scary and bad and terrible things could happen.

And okay, go anyway.

Yeah.

And I think something that's really important as it relates to Glennon and I, that I experience, and this is so helpful for you to have explained it that way, because I get it.

I agree.

I just can't let go because both of us can't let go.

I don't think you ever have to worry about me letting go.

That's not my strong suit.

No, I know, but like what you're saying is, and I think a lot of people in relationships who have children might feel this way, that we might be polarized about this, that one person is taking on this mentality and the other is taking on this mentality.

And it feels, I feel jealous of you.

I get that.

And it feels exhausting because it feels like I'm doing it alone and I want to meet somewhere in the middle.

Do you feel like

Like you're carrying more of the burden of

like logistics about the kids?

Like what exactly are you saying?

I think that I worry more about the doomsday possibilities than you do.

Like, wow, I never thought anyone would say that to me.

I feel, I love it.

Like, I am like, I know that's really good.

Like, in the middle of the night, you don't know this, but in the middle of the night, I go to the bathroom at like two or three o'clock every night.

And when I know the kids have been out and they've been out past the time that we've actually gone to sleep, every time I come back to my phone, I look at my phone and make sure that they are where they said they were supposed to be.

And that's like, that's just like a unconscious thing that I do.

And then the problem is, is that like when something comes to me, I sometimes have this negative because I'm operating, my brain and my heart and my body is operating almost from this like worst case scenario place.

And so when I come to them with a solution, or they come to me with a problem, I'm like, I'm already like ready.

I've got armor on rather than softness.

And that changes the way that I parent with them, you know?

So like, I want to be able to have softness and playfulness and joy rather than worry and fear.

And like, you know, like they're starting to drive and like there's friends and they, you know, drinking and stuff.

And it's like, my mind just, I'm like,

I don't know.

I feel like I'm

hardcore parenting over here in my mind.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Not that you're

defending.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I feel like probably there is a level of what you're saying that like

maybe part of me does understand that you're going to be getting up and watching and so I don't have to.

Like I think what you're talking about is mental load.

Yeah.

And I think that the truest, most honest answer to that is, yeah, probably

if you weren't doing what you were doing, then maybe I wouldn't

have as much freedom to think about the other side of risk.

In one way of thinking about it, we're both analyzing risk and we are balancing each other out.

Yeah.

Because if we were both like you, our kids would be fucked.

And if right now both of our kids were like, if we were both like me, our kids would be fucked.

So totally.

My therapist said, wow, that's so beautiful.

You guys are covering so much ground.

Oh, that's a great way to do that.

It's so beautiful.

You're covering so much ground.

You're making this such a big, wide breath.

But, but maybe you guys can meet somewhere in the middle rather than being polarized.

So So interesting.

I didn't even, I mean, it's helpful to me.

I didn't know that we were polarized about this.

Like, I literally did not know this.

This is new information to me.

I know we were talking about it a couple of days ago about something different, but I think it applies.

Yeah.

So maybe after this, you can ask Abby what else you're polarized about.

Yeah.

I can't.

There was other things.

I can't because we already had that conversation apparently.

Oh, okay.

All right.

Then you're polarizing part two.

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Hi, this is Alyssa, and I have a question

about

anxiety.

I have anxiety.

I've always had it.

And now I can tell that my son, my five-year-old son, also has anxiety.

I can see when it pops up for him.

I can see when it's building.

I can see it kind of take over.

And I'm not sure what to do.

I know how to handle anxiety

or I know how to attempt to handle anxiety, but it's like I've put him in this club that I don't want him to be in.

So just curious if you have any advice or, I don't know, tips on how to help him handle anxiety

and how

help me handle my guilt about this.

I'm just kind of at a loss for what to do.

Thank you so much.

I really appreciate y'all.

You helped me feel a little less alone in my crazy parenting.

Thanks.

Can I just say one thing?

Because I don't have,

I feel like you might be able to talk a little bit more about this.

The only thing I'll say, I feel I'm looking at you two with your anxiety.

I don't know.

She's got.

I've got it.

I didn't know it, but I've got it.

It's just, I express it very differently.

Yep, I've got it.

One thing I will say is

it's a question back to Alyssa.

Who do you blame for your anxiety?

Because I think that that can help curb some of the guilt.

Like it's not.

I was wondering the same thing.

I totally understand that initiating your kid into a club that you don't want them to have to be in and you feel like it's your fault for doing it and that sucks.

And at the same time, if Alyssa is anything like our generation where I feel like everything was individually like, that's your problem.

You're a crazy person.

That has nothing to do with us, your family members.

So if

her son has the benefit of

being

able to

commune

with his mom and they share that together,

then that is already like 10 steps ahead of where Alyssa probably was of like, oh, I have this.

You don't have to be scared of yourself.

Mommy has it too.

I can see it in you.

I know it stinks.

It stinks for me, but also

I, your brain is like mine.

And this is how we work.

And let's figure it out.

And, and so I think that the, the guilt might be getting in the way of being

an ally and a friend to your kid in owning your thing and talking about it.

I mean, we,

I.

Talk to my kids all the time about anxiety and about how it feels.

And I never had the benefit of that i didn't know i had anxiety until i was 40.

i just thought that that was life and

and i was weird and high strung

and so that sucks like think of how beautiful it is to that the fact you can see this in your five-year-old i wish someone had seen it in me

Like that's already a beautiful thing that you can notice it.

And this is like super tactical, but one of the ways that it has helped in my family is a lot of the IFS language, like actually naming the part that like, oh my,

like there's actual names in my house, like perfectionist Patty or worry,

Walter, or whatever, whatever.

And knowing like, well, this part is saying this to me and making me feel like I have to do this one thing.

And this other part is super worried about me trying this thing.

And then they're able to actually figure out: well, do I have motivation?

What is my motivation to

not listen to those parts?

Do I even have one?

And, and if it's, there's like a goal or something, I really want to be able to sing in front of those people.

Okay.

If I want to be able to do that, do I want that so much

that I want to help give these parts of me the proof that I'm going to be okay.

And that's how we talk about it.

They're protecting you because that's their job.

And so we have to little by little show them proof that you're going to be okay as you work towards this goal that you have or this value that you have.

And

so our job is to present that proof to them

so that they can find another job when they know they don't have to protect you from this.

And that proof is like in little ladder moments.

Like

maybe if you want to sing in front of all those people, maybe you could sing in front of me and daddy for a little bit.

Okay.

Okay.

That's a little proof for little Wari Walrus over there.

And then once they're all settled, then they get quieter because they have the proof they need.

So I don't know.

That might be, that's been super helpful

in our family.

That's so fucking helpful to me right now.

That's really helpful.

You're such a good mama.

I'm so proud of you.

I just think we should mention that really

the theme of these questions is like, okay, if we're not going to take pride

in something about our kid because that's just a matched value, then maybe we just look at the flip side of that and we don't claim guilt.

about something about our kid because that doesn't match the value that we want for them.

Like,

that's just a story, right?

Like, the

and it's using our kids to be either a referendum on our goodness or our badness.

So, they are either like a reflection of us as amazing or proof that we are shit.

Yeah, and I think that like that Alyssa, her son is still five, so she doesn't know yet that

Alyssa, this kid's going to do so much weird shit that you're going to be like, where did that come?

Like, our children have, I'm gonna say, three anxious parents.

I think Craig would be cool with me saying, we are not chill.

We have a kid who doesn't, couldn't find anxiety if you packed it up in a box and handed it to her.

Like,

she,

so how did that happen?

The anxiety in one of them is no more our

reflection than the non-anxiety in the other one.

Like, it's just the opposite of pride.

It's like looking at your kid without story and with beginner's mind.

Because honestly, Alyssa, like

this is not helpful, but like give me some anxious people.

Like, it's easier to chill people out than to tell people who don't care to care about things.

So,

like, even

yeah, they should have a diagnosis for the opposite of anxiety.

What is it?

Like, passionate apathy?

Exactly.

Like, what is it?

What is the word?

Give me Alyssa's kid.

I can work with that.

You know, I just

even the revelation that people shouldn't be anxious.

Yeah.

So I should feel guilty about that.

What does that say?

Are you sure?

Like, I think Alyssa's kid is probably tuned in to this crazy planet we're living on.

Yeah, these five years have been a real

bust.

So Alyssa's kid is like, this is fucked, y'all.

But do you know what I mean about like even worrying about that?

Like, I understand worrying about that.

I'm in mental health.

I get it.

But

there is an element of

looking at these people as not like

killing it or

failing.

And just that they're revealing who they are.

It's like that idea of parenting as expectation list.

Like they should be this and this and this and this and this and this and this.

And if they don't have the check mark, I'm failing.

As opposed to like embodied parenting, probably, which is like throwing the outer structure and checklist away and just thinking of your kid as like a treasure chest.

They are revealing their self to you.

You are reacting to that.

They are not reacting to your list.

I think that that's one of the most important things about all of the pod squatters today.

Like Patty, Lauren, Heather, Alyssa, the fact that you are all even having this question bubble come into your mind, like, huh, I wonder about this, makes me know

that you're doing parenting a little bit probably different than your parents parented you and a little bit different than their parents parented them.

And like, that is all your kid could ask for is a parent who's conscious of their actions, of their responses, of their children, the kids' behavior, and just like finding a little bit of fucking curiosity in the treasure chest of your child.

And like, how awesome is it to have these little human beings?

Though

whether we want to believe it or not, I do think like some of us have kids

to learn more about ourselves, to feel a little bit better about ourselves.

It's not just so that we can grow people.

It's like it's an expression.

We're trying to figure out the shit that's happening on our insides.

And

Patty, Lauren, Heather, Alyssa, I think that that's what this is all about.

All of your questions are about you trying to figure out more what's happening on your insides.

And

though

I just think that that's the most beautiful part about parenting is that like it's been my greatest teacher of myself.

Yeah, it's like we look at a kid and we say, how do we fix this problem?

Instead of asking ourselves, why do I even think that's a problem?

Yeah.

It's a really cool way to cultivate what is super hard to find, which is self-compassion.

Because if Alyssa looks at her beautiful son with anxiety anxiety and can have compassion for him and his struggles and what he's going through and seeing how hard it is to deal with all those big emotions, then perhaps Alyssa can take inventory of herself and her entire life where maybe she didn't even have anybody seeing her in her struggles and say, wow, the same compassion and understanding

that I have for him,

I deserve that my whole life.

That's right.

Yes.

And I was struggling just as hard, and good for me.

And

in the universe's brilliant specificity,

and this is just all from personal experience: if Alyssa can do that, if she can find a way to look at her

unruly, uncontrollable, unpredictable child, and find any

peace

there, then that is the cure for her anxiety.

That's so good.

That's it.

Her son is just representing every single thing she's never ever been able to fix or control.

Life itself.

So here comes the universe

with this beautiful experiment where she gets to do it person to person.

That it's no longer about life in general.

It's about this little life.

And so the cure for her own situation is in that relational moment between her and her son.

Love bugs, we think that you are freaking amazing.

Thank you for sending us these beautiful questions.

You get us thinking and feeling

more deeply than

you know.

Keep sending us your advice cues.

Keep them under a minute because that's the way that we can play them.

And we'll keep doing these.

Yes.

747-200-5307.

747-200-5307.

And this one was a lot of parenting stuff, but tell us what you want advice on.

Just all kinds of, we don't really have answers.

We have more questions and responses for you.

But

yes.

One minute so we can play it.

And

what advice are we all looking for?

Let us know.

747-200-5307.

See you next time.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

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Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.

I give you Tish Milton and Brandy Carlisle.

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