How to Heal Unhealthy Relationship Patterns + Glennon & Abby On Marriage

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Speaker 2 Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

Speaker 2 Lennon just gave me the mic to start this this podcast and I'm so excited. We're going to do a little Q ⁇ A with you folks today.
How you doing, Glennon?

Speaker 3 I'm good. I really like these episodes because I really like to hear from the pod squad and it makes me,

Speaker 3 I don't know, it just makes me feel like we're not just like talking into an abyss. So you know what it makes me feel like?

Speaker 2 What? Okay.

Speaker 3 You know that my best, truest self is a third grade teacher. Yes.
Yes. Okay.
So I started my professional.

Speaker 2 I mean, I don't agree with you, but I know that that's what you feel. Oh, okay.

Speaker 3 I feel most in my own skin, in my own zone, in my own

Speaker 3 best of everything when I'm like

Speaker 3 on the floor with a circle of third graders.

Speaker 2 I can't believe that that could be true.

Speaker 3 Well, you didn't know me when I was teaching.

Speaker 2 No, I know, but I just, that would be my worst nightmare. Keep going.

Speaker 3 And honestly, anywhere from kindergarten to third grade, I taught preschool for a long time and I freaking love preschoolers, but I just, I need everybody to concentrate for a little longer.

Speaker 2 And only third graders can do that.

Speaker 3 Well, first and second too, and even kindergarten, it's just preschoolers. I just remember I would spend like hours each night creating these activities.

Speaker 3 And then it would take me like two hours to make the activity. And then I would put the thing down on their tables and turn around and they'd be like, done.

Speaker 3 I can't do that. And I also need everybody to be able to read quietly.
Like I need for my own mental health to be able to be like, dear time, drop everything and read.

Speaker 3 Miss Doyle needs a minute.

Speaker 2 Drop everything and read.

Speaker 3 Yeah, dear time. Or some people call it SSSR, sustained silent reading time.
Yeah. Dear time's better.
Dear time's better. Drop everything and read.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 the point is that when my favorite part of the day when I I was teaching was called morning meeting, it's morning meeting time. It's morning meeting time.
It's time to share, show we care.

Speaker 3 It's morning meeting time.

Speaker 2 Okay, sure.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 3 it felt like the time of day where

Speaker 3 the kids could,

Speaker 3 I mean, in my classroom, it actually was a very

Speaker 3 intimate time. It was like where the kiddos could talk about what had gone on the night before or the morning of or was happening in their hearts

Speaker 3 before we got to the business of learning.

Speaker 3 And it was just my favorite time of day.

Speaker 3 And it felt like, wow, how important to make sure that we get a pulse on everybody's hearts, bodies, minds before we go into like whatever the hell hieroglyphics or whatever the hell we were studying that day.

Speaker 3 It just felt like that was the most important time, the morning meeting time.

Speaker 3 So,

Speaker 3 and we'd always do like an activity,

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 2 oh, I loved it.

Speaker 3 Okay, so the point is that I feel like when we do these Q ⁇ As, that it's kind of like morning meeting time. It's like our circle time.

Speaker 2 We're circling up.

Speaker 3 We're talking about our feelings.

Speaker 3 This is the best time of day for me. So this morning, I would like to call on Bailey.
Bailey, what would you like to share with us today?

Speaker 4 Hi, my name is Bailey. My question is, about three years ago, I came out to myself myself that I haven't really given myself that many opportunities to date women.

Speaker 4 And so, the few times that I do, which I'm in right now, it's a lot of like,

Speaker 4 I might not even be that interested in them.

Speaker 4 We've only been talking for like two weeks, but as soon as they start showing a lack of interest in me, it's like a 180 and I can't stop thinking about them.

Speaker 4 And I'm like, why haven't they messaged me back? Why did they post on their story and not text me? And it's a mess.

Speaker 4 And I don't even know why because, yeah, I might not even be that interested in them. But

Speaker 4 as soon as that

Speaker 4 takes a turn, it's really, I don't know, frustrating. And I don't want to act like that.
So I don't know how to stop it. So if you have any suggestions, that would be much appreciated.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 Ooh, I love this one.

Speaker 3 Bailey. Bailey, first of all, congratulations.

Speaker 3 Coming out to yourself is a really big deal.

Speaker 3 Well done.

Speaker 3 I'll tell you what my thoughts are about this.

Speaker 2 Can't wait.

Speaker 3 And because I am not a therapist and have no qualifications

Speaker 3 at all, I am only going to respond to this based on my own experience with my own self.

Speaker 2 Okay? Okay.

Speaker 3 Sweet Bailey, this is what I have learned.

Speaker 3 about when we do things we don't want to do. So whenever anyone says to me, why am I doing this thing that I don't want to do?

Speaker 2 Or

Speaker 3 I keep doing this thing and it's not aligned with who I am. Or whenever someone says to me, or I say to myself,

Speaker 3 I appear to be acting in a way that I don't understand and I don't want to act.

Speaker 3 That is the sign to me that this is an old pattern.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 So you know how

Speaker 3 The only things we can do

Speaker 3 disembodied are things that we've done a million times and our body is so used to that we go into autopilot.

Speaker 3 Like when you're driving to a place that you're so familiar to you and then you wake up and you're like, oh my God, I was driving this whole time. Does that happen to you? I mean, yes.
Yes.

Speaker 3 Or like you're washing your face and you've done it so many times that you just aren't even present and you come to and you're like, oh, I was somewhere else.

Speaker 3 When we're doing a new thing, we don't do that.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 When we're doing a thing that is based on an old pattern that we're on autopilot that we have not made intentional decisions to do

Speaker 3 those are the moments we're completely disembodied and out of control and we don't know why we're doing it okay

Speaker 3 so

Speaker 3 Bailey is saying I know better there's a version of me now that knows that I don't want to be chasing people who are disinterested in me so why am I doing it

Speaker 3 on autopilot

Speaker 3 that's the moment I feel like that is the most exciting thing in the world to me right now with my last year of therapy and all, et cetera, et cetera, is like figuring out those moments where

Speaker 3 I went into autopilot, I disassociated, and then came to.

Speaker 3 And what that says about something I, an old belief that I could change.

Speaker 3 So I wonder with Bailey,

Speaker 3 when is the first time she learned

Speaker 3 that when somebody shows disinterest,

Speaker 3 it is her role to chase the interest?

Speaker 3 So as I think like we would say, when's the first time you did that? Do you remember this feeling early on, right?

Speaker 3 Do you remember the feeling of you perceiving someone else as disinterested and that being the signal to your body and your mind and your heart that you have to chase and prove your worthiness to that person?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 As opposed to,

Speaker 3 and by the way, I freaking get that. I think everybody gets that.
I think many of us have the inner signal of, if someone's disinterested in me, that must prove that I'm not worthy. And so I have to

Speaker 3 pursue,

Speaker 3 pursue, pursue, pursue. So I can prove to that person that I am worthy.
So the question is not even, do I like that person?

Speaker 3 The question is, that doesn't matter. The question is, does that person like me?

Speaker 3 So then you pursue and pursue.

Speaker 3 And then what happens if that person ends up liking you with your pursuit? You're screwed anyway because you don't even know if you like them.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's like outsourcing. I mean, how many of us have asked our friend growing up, do you think so-and-so is cute? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because like you're trying to figure out if you really think they're cute. And so you outsource that information.

Speaker 2 It feels like Bailey is outsourcing the knowing the need to understand what the attraction is because i don't think it's attached to the person it sounds to me that it's attached to the chase or the drama yeah when i was younger this was my jam this thing feels very familiar to me i love the chase because also then it becomes a challenge like oh you're you're disinterested in me oh i okay i can win this one yeah i just put it into the next gear like charm it up do my little thing.

Speaker 3 I could see that. It feels to me like

Speaker 3 what we learned as kids becomes the hard drive of ourselves.

Speaker 3 Okay, the hard drive, you can correct me if I'm wrong. That's the place of the computer that holds all the codes

Speaker 3 that is telling the screen and the printer and all the things what to do. Yep.
It's telling the things what to do. Yep.
The hard drive.

Speaker 2 Okay. Well, the hard drive is like the mechanisms, the mechanics, the technology.

Speaker 3 Okay, well, what's the part that has all the codes?

Speaker 2 So software?

Speaker 3 Great. Software.
It's software.

Speaker 2 It's an old, non-updated software.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 3 So Bailey, like when you are doing something that does not align with what you know and your values, it's because there's an old code in the software that you haven't up done the work to update yet, right?

Speaker 3 Because the software is just sending its messages And we're looking at the shit that comes out of the printer and we're like, what?

Speaker 3 Why is this this way? Why am I doing this? Why is this the result of my life?

Speaker 3 And then we cross it out on the paper. White out.
We like try to make it, but no, it's always going to be the same until we change

Speaker 3 the software. So for me, that looks like barely, well, I have a million examples.
Here's just one. How come I can't effing relax?

Speaker 3 How come no matter how much I produce, no matter how much work I do, if I sit on a couch couch for longer than two hours or an hour, or I sit down in the middle of the day, I feel uncomfortable, I feel unworthy, I feel wasteful, I feel

Speaker 3 because there is still a code in my hard drive that was put there when I was little: that you can rest when you're dead,

Speaker 3 that

Speaker 3 hustle is your worthiness,

Speaker 3 that resting is laziness, and that is a code that is hard to change. So

Speaker 3 what I do,

Speaker 3 and the beautiful thing about embodiment, and I really feel like this has to do with embodiment, Bailey, because in order to abandon our new beliefs,

Speaker 3 we have to go offline. Wait, hold on.
We have to not stay in our bodies.

Speaker 2 In order to abandon our old beliefs?

Speaker 3 I believe that Bailey, she would not be asking this question if she really didn't believe she should be or wanted to be pursuing people who are disinterested in her. She wouldn't have a problem.

Speaker 3 People who are in their old beliefs completely don't have a problem. They're not like.

Speaker 2 Okay, so you're saying that her understanding, this is a new belief system, she has.

Speaker 3 I feel like she's moving towards a new belief system. I feel like there's this awkward time

Speaker 3 where it's an in-between time. If Bailey were still completely in her old software, She would not even be questioning this desire of hers.
She would not be questioning her behavior.

Speaker 3 She would not still be looking at the printer printer paper, going, Why am I doing this thing? That's right. The discrepancy, the discomfort is proof of growth.

Speaker 2 In the middle, you're in the middle. It's in the middle.

Speaker 3 It's the best place. It's like Bailey's getting ready for her actual software to change.

Speaker 2 The update is coming.

Speaker 3 Update is come.

Speaker 2 It's updating. It's like that little line when you're updating the thing.
It's like close. Yes.
Yes. Just wait it out.
Keep doing some work.

Speaker 3 But you can't wait it out in your brain. Like you have to stay embodied because,

Speaker 3 okay, I'm only saying this from my own experience.

Speaker 3 So I don't know if it's right, but when I'm trying to change a pattern, okay, you know, with the eating disorder stuff, I'd be like, wait, I'd come to.

Speaker 3 I'd come to and I'm in the bathroom throwing up. I'd come to and I'm like eating a whole pie, whatever.
And I kept thinking, why am I always coming to?

Speaker 3 Where am I going?

Speaker 3 Where do I go? There is a moment when you're in a situation and you feel uncomfortable

Speaker 3 that you can either stay in your body and deal with that discomfort in a new, fresh way with new programming,

Speaker 3 or you can deal with that discomfort by going offline, by dissociating, by abandoning yourself.

Speaker 3 And then you come to and you're in the bathroom throwing up, or you come to and you're pursuing that person who is disinterested in you, or you come to and you're drinking again, or you come to and you have abandoned your new software and the old one kicks in while you're disembodied.

Speaker 3 Does that make sense? Total sense. So for me, when I am in an uncomfortable situation, when I am with people who I feel triggered by,

Speaker 3 I have a moment where I get to stay and use my agency and try to implement my new belief system

Speaker 3 and sit with all the discomfort of that. And that is how the software changes.
So, Bailey, what that would look like for you, perhaps, is

Speaker 3 you have the moment, okay, where you've gone on a date.

Speaker 3 This woman is showing a lack of interest in you.

Speaker 3 There is a moment where you decide whether to dissociate and go into your old pattern. So you say to yourself, she's not interested.
My job is to make her interested.

Speaker 3 My worthiness is based on whether she's interested. I have to pursue this.
I'm uncomfortable. I'm going.

Speaker 3 And you come to and you're days later and you're embarrassed, you're lost again, you're whatever.

Speaker 2 Or

Speaker 3 you go on that date.

Speaker 3 Next day, she shows a lack of interest.

Speaker 3 You stay with it.

Speaker 3 You stay in your uncomfortable body that feels unworthy, that feels like no one's going to love you, that feels like, what's wrong with me? And you make that about you and yourself.

Speaker 3 Okay, you just sit with it and see what happens. You decide what you're going to tell tell yourself instead.
So

Speaker 3 it's like making a ship move two inches to the right. It's hard.
It seems like it should be so simple. It's the hardest thing in the entire world.

Speaker 2 It's like moving train tracks. Yes.
You know, like when the train tracks move and you're like right in the middle, you just need to get it to clink over. And don't feel bad.

Speaker 2 If you aren't aware or you don't see what's happening until you wake up,

Speaker 2 until you're halfway down or you're two weeks into pursuing this person one of the most difficult things that i have learned in my life is to become aware of my unconscious behaviors and before that my unconscious thoughts that lead to my behaviors it is the most difficult thing i'm working a lot on recognizing when i'm dysregulated And often I think that that's kind of what we're talking about.

Speaker 2 When complex emotions rise and then I start acting based on those complex emotions, I think that that's what we're talking about here.

Speaker 2 Recognize when we are not online and when the tracks have shifted back to the old software that's not updated.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And then you look at what the software is telling you, the old software.
Like, I'm only worthy

Speaker 3 if another person's interested in me.

Speaker 3 You think of like what you're telling yourself or what that code must be to make you pursue this person. And you think, what do I want to replace it with? Because you have to replace it, right?

Speaker 3 If I were Bailey, I would think, okay, every time I feel that fear

Speaker 3 and I want to reach out, chase that person who's disinterested.

Speaker 3 And I want

Speaker 2 her

Speaker 3 reaction to prove that I'm worthy.

Speaker 3 I think I would try to change it to, okay, every time I feel that disinterest, that terror, I want to prove to myself that I am worthy. That's right.
I want to pursue myself.

Speaker 3 I want to give to myself what I think that person needs to give me to make me whole.

Speaker 3 I think if I were Bailey, I would love myself so much through that change of software that I would pay attention to every time I felt that terror, that desire to pursue.

Speaker 3 And I would use all of that energy to pursue myself. I would say, what do I need today? How do I take amazing care of myself today? How do I love the shit out of myself today?

Speaker 3 And like, the amazing thing is, over time, you realize that all of those old behaviors are gifts because they like

Speaker 3 show you all the places where you need to heal and make yourself whole and love yourself. And then, Bailey,

Speaker 3 over time, you learn how to love yourself so well and become so whole that when the right person comes, you are fucking ready. It's really good.
To choose and not need,

Speaker 3 to choose as a whole person who can meet her own needs and who knows that

Speaker 3 disinterest from another human being is not a signal for you to pursue, but it's a signal for you to retreat into yourself. Yeah,

Speaker 2 I think that that's really good.

Speaker 3 I just love Bailey.

Speaker 2 Yeah, Bailey. And also, it's hard, Bailey, but you got this.

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Speaker 3 Let's hear in circle time from Jacqueline and what she would like to share today.

Speaker 4 Oh my goodness. I just love you all so much.
My name is Jacqueline, and my question is about marriage.

Speaker 4 I'm like like halfway through your boundaries podcast, the latest one, and you were discussing boundaries for married people.

Speaker 4 And I grew up pretty alternatively. I've kind of, for many reasons, I think, been conditioned to be pretty skeptical about the institution of marriage, to say the least.

Speaker 4 As a feminist, it feels a little bit against some things that I believe in.

Speaker 4 Abby and Glennon, I'm just wondering what made you decide you wanted to get married? What made you want to be a wife, Glennon? How much of it had to do with your faith?

Speaker 4 How much of it was just sheer practicality, finances, and such? Or just having the status of being married and have the world take your relationship a little bit more seriously?

Speaker 4 So these are all questions that have been circulating in my mind.

Speaker 4 I feel like it's something that I may want in the future, but that's also confusing to me because it seems to go against a lot of my core values. So I would love your opinion on that.

Speaker 4 Thank you so much for everything that you do.

Speaker 5 You have...

Speaker 4 Words cannot describe how much my life has been changed by all three of your work, really. Thank you.
Thank you. I love you.
Bye.

Speaker 3 I'm just going to tell you, babe, that this question from Jacqueline

Speaker 3 got me thinking.

Speaker 3 I'm thinking. Like, I

Speaker 3 love this question. I want to explore it with you.
Like, do you remember

Speaker 3 how

Speaker 3 utterly obsessed we were with getting married as soon as humanly possible? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 I felt like I was adrift at sea

Speaker 2 until we got married. I felt like my life depended on

Speaker 2 us needing to be married.

Speaker 3 And why do you think that was?

Speaker 2 I needed, I think that I have some insecurity issues.

Speaker 2 And I wanted to be legally tethered to you, even though I know that that can be unwound because both of us have been through divorce.

Speaker 2 But I will be honest, like, this is maybe not the proudest thing I could ever say. I wanted you to have a legal ownership over me.
And I wanted to have a legal ownership over you.

Speaker 2 That is how desperate I was.

Speaker 2 I wanted to show the most serious, the most

Speaker 2 highest form of attachment to somebody.

Speaker 3 I hear you. That is all true of what we wanted.
We did feel that way.

Speaker 2 And I do think now there's a lot of perks,

Speaker 2 finances, legal taxes, all that stuff.

Speaker 3 Respect, like

Speaker 2 in the world for queer people.

Speaker 3 It's so interesting, though, because

Speaker 3 we know

Speaker 3 that it's not necessarily the highest form of love, or it can be, but it can certainly not be, you know?

Speaker 3 I don't have answers to this one. I just think it's so interesting

Speaker 3 to

Speaker 3 think about why we so desperately, like as to

Speaker 3 feminists, as to

Speaker 3 people who aren't really super trusting of institutions. That's not usually our jam.

Speaker 3 It is interesting that we were so desperate to get married.

Speaker 3 We

Speaker 3 did feel a huge sense of relief after. It was like relief.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I also think because there were three children also involved, that I wanted them to clearly see the seriousness

Speaker 2 of our marriage.

Speaker 3 You wanted them to just like really feel that you weren't going anywhere. That's right.

Speaker 2 I wanted them to know in their bones that I wasn't just in this for dating you. I wanted to do the real deal.

Speaker 2 My question is: now that, you know, all the most intense love hormones have worn away in some ways, and we are settled into this like really deep grounded love,

Speaker 2 do you feel

Speaker 2 embarrassed by

Speaker 2 this desperate need to have been married to me?

Speaker 3 No, I don't feel embarrassed at all. I feel just curious about it.
Jacqueline really has me thinking.

Speaker 2 What are you thinking over there?

Speaker 3 No, I'm just, I wonder whether we thought

Speaker 3 that other people wouldn't respect our relationship or whether we thought it was going to be taken away from us somehow. I just think there's something deep.
and maybe

Speaker 3 that exists more with queer couples than other ones, where it's like something that you have not been allowed to have, that you have been deprived of forever. That doesn't ring true to me.

Speaker 3 Feel like it's like a hungry person who sees food.

Speaker 2 No, that doesn't ring true to me. Because it was less about the institution of marriage and more about wanting to be connected to you.

Speaker 2 I mean, don't forget, we were so fucking obsessed with each other that, like, I wanted to live among your body.

Speaker 2 It was ridiculous. I see how ridiculous that was, but that's what love was to us then.
And the way that we wanted, it was almost like an escalation.

Speaker 2 Like maybe this will allow us to even escalate the way we feel. Yeah.
It's what addicts do.

Speaker 3 We're looking for like the next tie.

Speaker 2 Honestly, I was addicted to you. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 For sure.

Speaker 3 So what do you think about like as a feminist, what does it bring up to you to be someone's wife?

Speaker 2 Well, I think it's very different when you're in a queer relationship where feminism is honored and not squelched. There is no hierarchy here.

Speaker 3 Right. Like wife,

Speaker 2 wife. It's not like husband, wife.

Speaker 3 Yeah. So it's Jaclyn.
I think Jacqueline might be straight. She did.

Speaker 2 Where there's a perceived hierarchy and a known,

Speaker 2 like if you become someone's wife, that you're now married to a husband. There's set expectations of cultures here and worldwide of how you're supposed to be.
That is not the case.

Speaker 2 Like, we got to craft that ourselves. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And so I get that deeply. The vibe of entering a heterosexual marriage, and you want marriage and you want love, but it almost feels like admitting

Speaker 3 deference or something.

Speaker 3 It's like the institution of heterosexual marriage has been so ingrained as a hierarchy that it almost would feel fraudulent to enter it without massive intentionality between the two partners, which can be done.

Speaker 3 And I'm sure can be done beautifully.

Speaker 2 Well, we've proven that.

Speaker 3 Well, I mean, we're both women.

Speaker 2 I feel like it's harder for... For sure, but like, what I'm saying is you didn't change your name.
I didn't change my name, although I really wanted to.

Speaker 3 Remember that time? Oh my God, you were going to be Abby Doyle. I was like, I have to draw the line.
I must draw the line.

Speaker 3 I cannot have the entire world mad at me because now you've decided to be Abby doyle i can't even say it out loud it makes me so uncomfortable i know but i just think but that shows how crazy okay sorry pod squatters are going to get mad at me about this i believe the name changing thing is so

Speaker 3 insane it's bizarre i'll say is so

Speaker 3 weird weird and by the way i changed my name in my first marriage i was glenn and doyle melton

Speaker 3 My kids all have Craig's last name.

Speaker 3 That was an old consciousness that made made that decision.

Speaker 3 I would never make that decision now.

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 3 don't understand

Speaker 3 why

Speaker 3 we don't rethink the idea that a woman is who she is and her name until she falls in love and gets married. And then

Speaker 3 who she is as a person disappears completely, literally in her name.

Speaker 2 I know, but also that happened to your mom and it happened to your grandma.

Speaker 3 But I'm just saying saying we could rethink that. I know.
I don't respect so much.

Speaker 2 I know, but like your name isn't necessarily your name. Exactly.
It's weird.

Speaker 2 Our names are not our names. They're our fathers passed down to us names.

Speaker 2 Generation after generation after generation. How many women have been erased?

Speaker 3 Yeah, just erased.

Speaker 2 They're like given middle names. They're like, we'll give you a middle name.

Speaker 3 Because they know nobody uses that. So stupid.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 I think that there's a lot of different valid opinions about this, but I do respect intentionality about it and not just doing it as a default.

Speaker 2 Totally.

Speaker 3 People should talk about it and like really get beneath what it means to give up your name and take on someone else's. And like, why not?

Speaker 3 Why doesn't? It's like when you talk to somebody about why we should stop saying firemen. Okay.

Speaker 3 And they say,

Speaker 3 well, it's just firemen's just the default. It's not a big deal.
It includes everybody,

Speaker 3 which makes sense to them until you say, okay, well, how about we just call them all firewomen? And that can be the default. And it'll just include everybody.

Speaker 3 And suddenly that, when you reverse it, that feels crazy to the person. And that's how you can get the person to understand how you feel sometimes.

Speaker 3 It feels like to do that about names would be important. Like, okay, I understand, sir, that it doesn't feel like a big deal to you if I change my name.

Speaker 3 So how about we just change your name to my name?

Speaker 3 And then how you feel about that

Speaker 3 would be how I felt about this if I weren't conditioned to death to just take it. And I also think with kids' last names, like I want to know what people do.
I feel

Speaker 3 sad. There's a part of me that feels sad that our children.
don't have my name anywhere.

Speaker 3 I don't know.

Speaker 3 And that maybe that's like, I don't know, but I do every once once in a while think damn i wish i had my new consciousness when i was making that decision yeah and i think that to speak directly to jacqueline here

Speaker 2 marriage and the institution of marriage might not be for you but that doesn't mean you can't necessarily enjoy all the fruits of what marriage can bring without the actual institution recognizing it I remember thinking as I was pretty young that I would just get married in my own way.

Speaker 2 And I just wouldn't receive the tax benefits or like it being a legally sanctioned situation. And I remember thinking, well, this

Speaker 2 really, it's about me being able to stand up in front of my friends and family to honor this union, to like do it in a way that makes it feel more profound than just

Speaker 2 dating somebody.

Speaker 2 So I'm sure that there are a lot of different people out there that have different ways to honor

Speaker 2 an increased step of commitment. I'm a firm believer in,

Speaker 2 I like to celebrate. And I think that when you do step into this world of quote unquote marriage, whether you do choose to do it legally or not,

Speaker 2 that there needs to be a level of commitment there. And that needs to be celebrated and honored, not just by the two people, but a witness or your friends and family.

Speaker 3 Yeah, just two things about that that makes me think about number one, our culture has made it

Speaker 3 so that that's like it's a nice idea to have your family honor your relationship and all that, but

Speaker 3 it comes down to the safety of the family

Speaker 3 and the rights and penalties that our institutions will hold against people who don't get married. For example, it's not just tax and money.
It's like who gets to visit you in the hospital?

Speaker 3 Who gets to take care of your children when you, I mean, we punish people who don't choose marriage, right? Or who can't because it's not allowed for them.

Speaker 3 So it's complicated in terms of just saying, well, I'd just like to celebrate the love. You also need the legal protection or you deserve the legal protection.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 some people, of course, that's what they want. That's important.
I don't know if that's something that Jacqueline is necessarily talking about here. I think that she's trying to get right with

Speaker 2 the institution itself and how gross it can be

Speaker 2 in the name of love. Yeah.

Speaker 3 I think

Speaker 3 it's wonderful and beautiful that we decided that we wanted to be legally attached to each other.

Speaker 2 I love being legally attached to you.

Speaker 3 I mean, at the end of the day, you just were like, you were, you were literally like, I don't want you to be able to leave me without a legal problem. You actually said that.
But I also think about

Speaker 3 the moment where I felt like someone was expressing to me what the highest form of love is. And it was when Tish was talking about,

Speaker 3 I've told the story on the pod before, but somebody asked who taught her the most about love.

Speaker 3 And she said, Abby, because my mom and my dad have to love me, but Abby chooses it every day.

Speaker 3 And so I do believe in my gut that there's a higher sort of love than the one that says you have to because it's contractually written down.

Speaker 2 Like

Speaker 3 I'm not there.

Speaker 3 That scares me too much, but I feel like a higher version of myself

Speaker 3 would

Speaker 3 be comfortable in.

Speaker 3 the idea that love is actually not something that you can totally put on a piece of paper and sign that it's actually at its truest, something that two people either choose every day or don't.

Speaker 2 Totally. And I still, I believe that to be true also with being married to you.

Speaker 3 Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. I mean, there's just so many things that happen in our daily life now.

Speaker 2 Like, I think I'm so grateful to be married to you for all of just like paperwork shit and stuff that we have to deal with the house. Like, to me, it was the foundation of building a life together.

Speaker 2 Like, this real, true,

Speaker 2 I'm not going anywhere. I'm legally binding myself to you.

Speaker 2 And yes, I will admit there, I have insecurity around that for all the right reasons from my past. But at the end of the day, it is something that I'm extraordinarily proud that you chose to marry me.

Speaker 2 And that I hope you feel the same way. Like, it's a big step.
It's a serious step. It's like, this is no joke.
We're doing this step.

Speaker 2 And I think because of that foundation,

Speaker 2 we've been able to hold each other accountable for continuing to build the most beautiful, truest version of life that we can envision.

Speaker 2 And it's like, no, like, I think about our vows all the time.

Speaker 2 I think, what did I say to you? What did you say to me? And

Speaker 2 am I holding up my side of that of the vows that we said?

Speaker 2 I don't know.

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Speaker 3 Let's hear from Julie. Julie wants to know, where are all the lesbians?

Speaker 4 Hi, this is Julie. I left a very toxic marriage after 24 years and I've always identified as bisexual, but now I'm really excited to meet women and

Speaker 4 accept I don't know how to meet women. I tried the app.
The app suck. I really hate it.
I am now 46 years old and single and how do I meet lesbians?

Speaker 4 I live in Los Angeles and I've even looked up lesbian bars and

Speaker 4 all my gay guy friends, nobody knows any lesbians. I know a million gay guys, no lesbians.
So where are they? Please help me.

Speaker 4 Please, please, please. And thank you for everything.
You are all three a gift and I love you so much. Thank you.

Speaker 4 Help.

Speaker 2 Julie,

Speaker 3 where are all the lesbians? First of all, congratulations. It sounds like you were in a tough spot in a marriage and you got yourself out.
Way to go, Julie. And now you might have meet some women.

Speaker 3 Abby Wambach, where do people go to meet the lesbians? I met mine at a librarian conference in Chicago. I assume that's not where lesbians usually meet up.
So what, where?

Speaker 2 Well, a couple things. In Los Angeles, you could go.
to an angel city

Speaker 2 go to an angel city game so many lesbians and the problem with gay i wouldn't say the problem yeah it's a problem the problem with gay going out culture is that usually the gay bars in Los Angeles, whether it's West Hollywood or where are all the women lesbian bars?

Speaker 2 I see. We don't look at it me.
Yeah, we don't go out to bars, but back in the day when I did go out to the bars in Los Angeles, the Abbey was a thing.

Speaker 3 Wait, what? It was called the Abbey?

Speaker 2 Yeah, A-B-B-E-Y.

Speaker 3 So that's that was a bar. Yes.
Can you tell me, I just need to know. I've never been to a lesbian bar.
Oh my God, Lauren, our producers are.

Speaker 2 Silver Lake.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah the ruby fruit yes yes that's that's exactly what i was thinking the ruby fruit ruby fruit and silver lake okay so those are two yeah silver lake is like a big gay friendly area that there are a lot of women lesbians okay that's great that's a good hot tip queer folks too can you tell me abby what is a gay bar like i just want you to set the scene hold on a second

Speaker 2 wait Have you ever been to a gay bar?

Speaker 3 Never been to a gay bar. I've never been anywhere.
I've never got to do any of this.

Speaker 3 I'm like, I was out with Alex the other day and she went into a convenience store and I was waiting outside and these women came up to me. They didn't know who I was.

Speaker 3 They didn't know that I was with Alex and they said, there's a very famous lesbian in that convenience store. And I said, what? And they said, from the L-word.

Speaker 2 They were talking about Alex.

Speaker 3 Our best friend, Alex. I don't even know about the L-word.

Speaker 3 Okay. I missed everything.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you really did.

Speaker 3 So tell me what is a gay bar.

Speaker 2 We're going to have to watch the L-word together. Okay.
The first, the original.

Speaker 3 Okay, let's do it.

Speaker 2 It's good. I mean, a gay bar is like a normal bar.
A bar that you've gone to is just like gay people, gay women or gay men or trans folks, queer folks, everybody in between.

Speaker 3 That sounds wonderful.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, and it's really fun because

Speaker 2 now.

Speaker 2 We also have to remember this is back in like the

Speaker 2 2010 era when I would be going to gay bars. It was just about like the lipstick lesbian thing was just happening.

Speaker 3 Okay, wait. So before that, I don't want to say any words.
I'm scared to get in trouble. Just tell me what you mean.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, I'm probably going to say a lot of offensive things here, but it's my people, so I get to say whatever the fuck I want. There you go.
The gay culture, like the gay bar culture,

Speaker 2 usually back in the day, you'd have one night a week. That was women's ladies' night.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 2 And then the rest of the week, it would be for gay men.

Speaker 3 Oh, sounds about right. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 you'd go to the bar, I think the Abbey or another bar down there at the time, I forget what it's called. You go, it was like a Monday night, ladies' night.

Speaker 2 And it's like this, all the butch lesbians are acting like frat boys.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 2 They're just like

Speaker 2 totally

Speaker 2 like buying the hot women.

Speaker 2 And at this time, you know, what we would call back then, like lipstick lesbians, women who do not present at all gay that's who I was attracted to and that's you know and so you'd be in there with your baseball cap and like your baggy cargo pants

Speaker 2 flannel

Speaker 2 my hair pulled back because I had long hair

Speaker 2 and like you would buy a girl a drink and like you would try to have a conversation oh my god so it's just like a regular heterosexual bar yeah but was the music better at least

Speaker 2 was it like gay music yeah like all ani de DeFranco? No, they like share and like

Speaker 2 because it's like house music. You're at like a bar that people are, you know.

Speaker 3 Okay, so it's still dance music. It's not like we're going into DeFranco vibes.

Speaker 2 Like, okay. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 And can I ask you a question? Tell the truth. Were you like when Abby Wambach walked into the bar? Because you were like a bit of a

Speaker 3 butch icon. Were you getting a lot of attention? Were people excited?

Speaker 2 The problem is not a lot of lesbians at the time were like huge

Speaker 2 sports fans. What? Yeah, they were.
But you also have to remember, this is back in the 2000s. This is pre-Twitter.
Twitter wasn't even like a thing.

Speaker 3 Oh, you just missed your moment.

Speaker 2 And like, only the lesbians who were like real women soccer fans knew who I was.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 2 So, like, I would say.

Speaker 3 Did you like wear your jersey to the

Speaker 2 ton. I did go to Dinoshore one year.

Speaker 3 Tell the people what Dinoshore is.

Speaker 2 So it's like a weekend that a lot of lesbians descend upon Palm Springs,

Speaker 2 and it often correlates with the women's professional golf tournament.

Speaker 2 And also, it's right around the final four time for the women's NCAA basketball tournament. Oh my God, it's amazing.
So it's like this big weekend, and there's like a white party.

Speaker 2 I did go to that one time, and that was that was shortly after. I think that I thought I was more famous than I was.

Speaker 2 Oh, you know, I think in my, my ego was like, everybody's looking at me, but probably nobody was looking at me.

Speaker 3 I bet they were, babe. Is dinosaurs still happening? Is it something that our friend Julie could go to? And would you recommend it?

Speaker 2 I would. If it is happening, I'm assuming it's still happening.
I have an absolutely no idea.

Speaker 3 But you would recommend it.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 But I think what Julie's problem is she needs to meet another lesbian, even if it's not to like have sex with and hook up with you need to have other women or folks that are identifying as lesbians or queer that you can hang out with at these places so that you don't feel like you're just there all alone yes and i love ideas what are they okay here's my couple of ideas just right now

Speaker 3 Okay, first of all, I think Julie needs to be in spaces with queer people, not just to hook up, but because it just feels safer safer and better. I love my favorite social things in the entire world.

Speaker 3 My only social events I really like are when they're full of queer people. I feel safer.
I feel like it's a different,

Speaker 3 anyway.

Speaker 3 A couple of things I've gone to recently where I was surrounded by this sort of community. Fortune, Feemsters.
Oh, yeah, comedy.

Speaker 2 Comedy shows. Yeah, anything Fortune and Feemstrows.
Take Notaros.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Comedy shows.
This is all in LA, Julie. Alex and Abby and I went together to both of them and just

Speaker 3 joy. So many queer people, so many lesbians, joy, joy, joy, joy.
Okay. Additionally, I think that Julie needs to go to all of Brandi Carlisle's concerts.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 But here's the problem that I think Julie is saying. It's she needs a friend to be able to go because it's a hard thing to go to some of these things solo.

Speaker 3 Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 Like she needs to figure out where she has a wing person.

Speaker 2 She needs a wing man or woman or somewhere. Wing man.

Speaker 3 Human. Wing human.
Okay. Well, let's just put it to the pod squad.
All right. Are there any lesbians in LA in the pod squad that are interested in being Julie's wing person? All right.

Speaker 3 We can put that out there. If so, call the number.

Speaker 2 We will friend.

Speaker 3 We can try to matchmake a little bit.

Speaker 2 We're going to turn into an app. We are now an app.
No, we are.

Speaker 2 We're not an app. No.
We're not a dating app. No.
But we are trying to connect Julie here with some people, some lesbos.

Speaker 3 And at the same time, I would also like to maintain our healthy boundaries and not try to fix Julie's life. So I think just some suggestions about places she should go.

Speaker 3 Silverlake, the Ruby Fruit, Tignotaro shows, Fortune Feemster shows.

Speaker 3 Brandy Carlisle's concerts. Go to, what's the weekend we go to that's the best thing in the world? Girls just want to.
Yeah. Girls just want a weekend.

Speaker 2 Yeah, with Brandy Carlisle. And also, they have a bunch of like queer cruises.

Speaker 2 I know that that's expensive, but if that's something that you could manage to do, I know a lot of people meet a lot of really cool, queer folks on cruises, gay cruises.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Cool.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 Well, we love you, Julie. We feel excited about this journey for you.
And Angel City, that was the last one. Yeah.
Angel City Games.

Speaker 2 Yes. Angel City, NEW NBA games, but like WNBA games.
Also, I just want to acknowledge, like, find a friend. You can go meet other people there.

Speaker 2 It's just better to do some of these things with a wing person, a wing human.

Speaker 3 All right. Well, pod squad, thank you for that amazing circle time.
I loved it. I love your questions.
They make me think so much and they make me appreciate being part of this community so deeply.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Do you have anything to say to wrap it up, my love?

Speaker 2 I don't ever get to say this that often. Uh-oh.

Speaker 2 But I feel so proud of this pod squad.

Speaker 2 Y'all, people, when they approach me out in the real world now, like, they never talk about soccer anymore. They're only talking about the pod

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 how grateful they are that we do this. And I just want the world to know and new pod squatters to know.

Speaker 2 This is honestly one of the things in my life that I feel the the absolute most proud of ever. More than soccer.

Speaker 2 I feel like this has brought me so much closer to myself and so much closer to really what I want to do in the world and what I love to do in this world. And

Speaker 2 I don't know. I just wanted the pod squad to know how grateful I am.

Speaker 2 Obviously, I am to you, but like this doesn't happen without. the people clicking on it and listening.

Speaker 3 You know how you always used to feel when you were playing soccer that there was an element of it that you felt like you weren't loved for who you are inside. Like you just had this skill.

Speaker 3 And this skill went away,

Speaker 3 it was over for you. Like you felt like it was a very conditional adoration that was based on this one thing that you could do.
And if you lost it, it would be over.

Speaker 3 I wonder if this feels like being loved for or appreciated for who you are on the inside do you want to know the real truth i do always

Speaker 2 doing this pod squad has made me realize

Speaker 2 that adoration out there does nothing for me in here

Speaker 2 and that it's beautiful when people come up and tell me it makes me know that my purpose in life is true it's real i love it

Speaker 2 But I have learned from doing this pod that there was a gap that I didn't know how to actually love myself

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 be in service to myself first. I was outsourcing that to the world.
And so I've learned that I'm not doing that anymore. I'm learning how to love myself so that when it actually comes to me,

Speaker 2 it's matching. Whoa.
When the outside now comes to me, I don't need to then go back out. and keep producing.
It's like like is seeing like and it's like, oh, I will, I will take that.

Speaker 2 And so that is the greatest gift that this podcast has ever, that I didn't even know it was possible that it could give me.

Speaker 3 Bailey, did you hear that, Bailey?

Speaker 3 Bailey, are you picking up what we're laying down, Bailey?

Speaker 3 All right, Pod Squad, we can do hard things. We'd love you.
See you next time.

Speaker 2 Bye.

Speaker 3 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Speaker 3 Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

Speaker 3 To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

Speaker 3 This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

Speaker 3 We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 3 We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 3 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and this show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.

Speaker 3 I give you Tish Milton and Brandi Carlisle.

Speaker 2 I chased desire, I made sure I got what's mine.

Speaker 2 And I continue

Speaker 2 to believe

Speaker 2 that I'm the one for me.

Speaker 2 And because I'm mine,

Speaker 2 I walk the line.

Speaker 2 Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on the map.

Speaker 2 The final destination

Speaker 2 we lack.

Speaker 2 We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 2 to places they've never been.

Speaker 2 And to be loved, we need to belong.

Speaker 2 We'll finally find our way back home.

Speaker 2 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 2 that our lives bring,

Speaker 2 we can do a heart again.

Speaker 2 I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

Speaker 2 I'm not the problem,

Speaker 2 sometimes things fall apart.

Speaker 2 And I continue

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Speaker 2 the best

Speaker 2 people are free.

Speaker 2 And it took some time,

Speaker 2 but I'm finally fine.

Speaker 2 Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are map.

Speaker 2 Our final destination

Speaker 2 directions

Speaker 2 to places they've never been.

Speaker 2 And to be loved, we need to be known.

Speaker 2 We'll finally find our way back home.

Speaker 2 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 2 that our lives

Speaker 2 bring,

Speaker 2 we can do hard pain.

Speaker 2 spread adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

Speaker 2 We might get lost, but we're okay with that. We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 2 to places they've never been.

Speaker 2 And to be loved, we need to belong.

Speaker 2 We'll finally find our way back on.

Speaker 2 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 2 that our lives bring,

Speaker 2 we can do hard things.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we

Speaker 2 do hard things.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we

Speaker 2 can do hard

Speaker 2 things.