43. Esther Perel Answers Your Relationship Questions

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Hello, loves.

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

I get so amazed and excited every time

you come to this little party that we're having.

So thank thank you for coming.

Thank you for showing up at our We Can Do Hard Things party.

Super excited today because we have the magical, wise, incredible Esther Perel back with us, and she is answering your questions today.

And I don't want to take up any extra time here, so let's just jump right in.

Hi, Glennon and sister.

My name's Melissa, and I'm a mom of two.

My hard thing is

my husband and I's relationship does not have anything inherently wrong.

We don't have any major issues and we fight very infrequently,

but

I find myself feeling very stagnant in the relationship.

recognize that he is an amazing provider.

He gave me my two beautiful, amazing girls, girls.

And he is steady.

He's constant.

He's not going anywhere.

He tells me that.

But there's no spark.

There's no pursuit.

There's no adventure.

There's no passion.

And I used to try to make that for us.

But it's been kind of rejected and not received for so long that now

I'm finding that I'm not

even trying anymore.

And I feel so sad about that.

My question is:

what do you do when you feel like

you wouldn't have much of a relationship without your kids being there?

The last question kind of takes it in a different direction.

So

it's which one do I want to answer?

You know,

I would want to know: what did you try before?

Did you say, Let's go to a club, let's go dance, let's go take a walk together?

Did you hold his hand and he took the hand out?

Did you sit next to him on the couch and he basically doesn't notice if you're there or not?

Did you try to put your

hand in his hair and his hand never comes on you?

I mean, what did you try for which you say the response was such that I stopped trying and I basically closed in and

basically

shut myself down?

So there's two ways to change it.

You either restart certain things like that and you see

if there is a response.

And then you basically, depending on the response, you go to the partner.

And that is a very scary conversation because it's basically a conversation that that says we have an infrastructure of a relationship and that relationship gives us both a deep sense of stability and consistency and predictability, but there is very little intimacy between us.

There is very little closeness between us.

I am lonely.

Are you?

And that is a scary conversation to have.

You know, it's not you don't respond and there is no spark.

it's i'm lonely we we are good productive providers together and we get things done

but that doesn't feed my soul that doesn't make me feel that i am important to you that i matter that you are special to me does that matter to you do you ever have that need

you know or do you think that because we go on saturday night to dinner together that that we have that you know how do you see us?

And can we ever talk about that?

And I often find it very difficult.

I'm afraid that you are going to shut down the conversation or that you're not going to know what I'm talking about, which is going to make me feel even more lonely, or that things are actually fine for you.

And that at the end of the conversation, I'm really going to feel that once there is no kids, there is nothing between us.

I often think letter writing is very useful in situations like this because it gets people's attention rather rather than sitting at a table and trying to get them to lift their head from the phone.

You actually write a note and you say, This is a letter that I've been writing in my head many, many times to you.

I've written versions to yourself, you know that you've written versions that you won't send.

So the letter that is sent is not the first one you write, in which you say, you know,

I was looking at us today and I saw this beautiful unit of people, you know, but there is

an empty space between them.

And I suffer from that empty space.

And I don't know if you do too.

When we met, we used to be able to talk for hours.

There was a real sense of, you know, we were curious about each other.

I sometimes feel like I don't really know what's inside of you and what makes you tick.

And I don't feel that you have any idea of what happens inside of me.

And maybe that's the marriage that you know.

Maybe that's what you grew up with.

Maybe that's how we each, you saw your parents.

I saw my parents that way too, but I promised myself that I would have better, I would have more.

And here I am with you, and I don't have that.

And I don't know, I want you to feel my longing.

I hope you don't just hear this as my criticism.

I miss you, I miss us.

I long.

I'm lonely.

And I can't imagine that if I feel this way, you can just think we're having the best of times.

Shall we meet somewhere?

Oh,

I love it.

Focus on the longing and not the criticism.

That's so beautiful.

That changed everything for me when I read that.

That you said, Esther, behind every criticism is a longing, behind every anger is a hurt.

Because

that,

like,

if you could interpret all of my criticisms

as a

longing for more closeness to you, as opposed to

low-grade warfare on you.

Imagine what we would have.

And imagine that you can say that.

I know I can sometimes sound critical.

I know that I lose all elegance in the way that I say things.

And I really want to own that because what I really would love for you to feel is how much I miss you.

It's not that I don't like what you do, it's that I used to love what we had.

And I and, you know, now it depends.

Sometimes you have a person who really can hear it and then responds from that place.

And sometimes you have a person who, no matter which way you say it, is still going to react defensively.

You know, you have to be prepared for that.

And basically, just like, you're never happy.

What else does it take for you?

I do this, and I do this, and I do this.

And no matter how much you've acknowledged everything they do,

because then they are in their own scripts.

This is not anymore marriage material.

This is family of origin material.

Well, and sister, speaking of family of origin material, when she says that, I think, you know, we would say, why can't they just interpret our criticism?

I know, that's what I said.

But, but it's our responsibility to express it as longing.

It's not always their responsibility to listen to our criticism, translate it into their brain as longing, and we say, why the hell aren't you interpreting?

We have to actually express it as longing.

I know.

The heartache.

And that's so vulnerable, sister.

You don't like to be vulnerable.

We're going to go to Ashley right now.

My name is Ashley.

I have had a very estranged relationship with my mother since I can remember.

We've never gotten along.

It's been super rough.

As an adult, I am a mother to five kids, and I'm finding it very hard to connect with them because of the not the connection that I had with my mom and I'm also finding it very hard to cope and deal with it it's been a skeleton in my closet for years and I'm now trying to face it and I'm just so overwhelmed do you guys have any tips for me or anything that can help me with this Thank you so much.

And I've just started watching listening to your podcast and it has been amazing.

It brought some tears to me though, but good tears.

Thank you so much and have a great day.

So Ashley,

I'm going to just have a few minutes to talk to you, but this is a situation where I would say it could be really helpful to try some therapy with somebody who helps you parse out what happened in your relationship with your mother.

You know, much of our early conflicts with our parents are often either because we got too much of something or too little of something.

We either got intrusion or abandonment.

You know, we got the neglect or we got the suffocation.

So I don't really know what led you to be so cut off from your mom that it almost led you to cut off from the mom that is inside of you.

And in order not to be like her, you can't develop your own.

And what you notice in a very beautiful way is how this is playing itself out with your children.

And you've made, you've connected the dots.

You know that something is not allowing you maybe to hug them, to kiss them, to console them, or to put limits to them, or whatever the challenges that you are feeling vis-à-vis them,

because there is something in you that, as the child, that is being replayed, that makes it hard for you to then become your own mother, differentiated from the one that you had.

And this is not a quick fix.

You have five kids,

go get the help.

It's a lot of people that would be affected by this.

And this is not irreversible.

If you do want to start something on your own, I actually had the same thought, you know, because I don't know that you're talking to your mother.

So talk to your mother by writing to your mother, but to yourself.

Handwritten, please, not computer.

You want the emotion that comes through the hand.

And just write.

you know, mom, it's been so long since we had an exchange.

And I realized that in fact, on the one hand, I don't talk to you.

And on the other hand, I seem to be in conversations with you all day long.

But it is a subverted conversation.

And I need to figure that out.

So I'm going to just try to tell you what kinds of conversations I have with you every day, even though we rarely see each other or rarely talk to each other.

And put it down.

If you want, you can even put something, an object that represents her right in front of you so that when you lift your head you can look at her a picture of her and you can really enact this kind of a conversation and what was missing in your experience with her and was she the only one did you have siblings was there a another parent you know what was the context of how this kind of this dissociative estrangement took place what happened to you in your body what happened to you in your heart in your hands etc

then you'll decide if you ever want to go and meet with her and say, you know, I wrote you something, and then read it out loud to her.

That will be much better than trying to have a conversation.

You may have a mother who doesn't know what you're talking about and is completely cut off, too, and then we can go and deal with her mother and see how many generations of this takes place.

But in the meantime, do yourself and your five little ones the favor and get help on this.

You don't have to do this all alone.

And I will just say, because

I remember feeling feeling early on when I stepped into the family with these three children, that I was exhibiting some behaviors that my mom showed me that hurt me, that traumatized me,

and just talking about it with you, Glennon, and almost not like an accountability coach, but somebody that I could just say, I don't want to be that mom.

I want to be a different mom.

But some of this stuff is instinctually integrated into our DNA that we can work through with not only therapy, but bringing your partner along on this journey with you.

I think can be super helpful.

I know for me, it has allowed me the closeness that I crave to have, not only for my mom.

So it's been a re-parenting in some ways, like my little childhood self

has healed some of those childhood traumas through the reparenting of my own children.

Yep.

Did you allow yourself,

because I think the piece in between here that I, and that's a very important piece for all your listeners too, is the actual acceptance that we are bound to do and to repeat the very things that we promised ourselves we would never do.

Let's start with that.

Yeah, that was a tough one.

That was a tough one to swallow.

Because it's that which allows you to then find

an accountability partner, is that you don't, because so often we hide it.

We feel so ashamed about it.

It's like, oof, how could that be?

You know,

I hear the thing come out of my mouth or I hear the way I've responded to this or the coldness that suddenly takes over me or the sternness or whatever the piece is, you know.

And I think the first thing is really to know, you know, in the name of what Glenn said at the beginning, you're not alone with this.

This is common.

We do repeat what was done to us and we learned it even when we know, oh,

I cringe and so I want to hide.

I don't want to say it.

And then we don't want to talk about it to others.

But if you accept it, you'll have an easier time.

And talk about it.

I mean, we,

I haven't been able to change completely.

I like the idea of just even acknowledging it because we acknowledge it as a whole family.

I decided I did not want to bring my hyper awareness of every social situation and controlling everything and being worried about everyone's energy in the room into my family.

So that's what I do every damn day, Esther.

But,

and I haven't been able to change it completely.

But what we do do as a family is I say, I'm doing that thing

where I'm making everybody nervous and ruining everyone's social experience because I'm worried that the social experience will be ruined.

So I'm ruining it.

And the kids know, they know that's the energy I got from my family of origin.

They know when I'm doing it.

They can see it.

So it's not that I've been able to change it, but just talking about it as a family, I think makes them a little bit freer from it.

Yeah.

Because we're not repeating the pattern.

We're pointing it out and saying, oh, mom's doing that thing.

Bless her heart.

Yep.

And when they get older, they can say to you too, you're doing that thing,

which is what happens in my family is that they started to say to me, you know,

you're doing this thing.

And I would just say, oh, God.

I'd say, thank you.

And at first, I'd be defensive.

No, it's not the same thing.

I'm not doing that thing.

But then over time, I just basically thought, you know what, they're doing you a favor.

So then I take it and just say, you're right.

I'm stopping.

And so that's, I don't know how old the children are of this, of Ashley, but

it's astounding how much we live in an echo chamber and how much we bring this thing, you know.

It's very disturbing.

It feels like we will never leave our, you know, whichever the parent is that we're trying to transcend.

Like you just like,

you hold me prison.

You live inside of me.

But in fact, we slowly put them out there.

And that's why the picture is very helpful.

You put the person outside of you, you externalize her.

You're talking to the part of you that identifies with your mom, that has learned that piece.

But you also are trying to take that part and look at it separately because you have other parts inside of you.

And it is those other parts inside of you that will will help you make sure that this one doesn't become the dominant one.

That's the piece: you do have that, but you have other things that you do so differently from your mom.

This I say to Ashley, too.

You focused in on the part of you that is repeating,

but you didn't focus on the parts of you with those five children, those unique moments, even if they're small, where you noticed that you had done something that you liked and that went well.

And you need that list too, because otherwise, you can't address the other list.

Ah,

perfect.

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Okay.

Hi, Gwennon, Amanda, and Abby.

My name is Lauren.

I'm 23 years old, and

I have a hard thing.

One of my best friends is going through

what I would consider to be a

toxic and

really hard relationship.

And

I find it really hard to

be a supportive friend through this kind of thing.

And I would really like to figure out how to

be a better friend because I feel like I'm constantly battling between being supportive and

burning someone's house down.

So

I would like to know, what advice do you have on

loving someone through

a bad relationship?

Have you ever been in such a situation?

Yes.

I mean, I think this defines Glennon and I's the difference of personality that we are.

Glennon wants to burn everybody's house down, and I'm usually pretty supportive of,

not that you're not supportive, but I think that, yeah, all of us have some.

So how I would frame it, you know, so how Abby framed it is I burn, she supports.

How I would say it is I tend to

err on the side of saying the thing,

saying what I think is the truth,

and Abby would err more on the side of supporting the person through their truth, no matter what she thinks.

and i see

beauty on both with both approaches although recently

we have been in a situation where i actually went beyond myself and into because we choose partners that we wish to teach us things and i said some really hard things to a wonderful friend recently um about her relationship about her relationship and that was so out of my character because i'd like to let people live their own lives and figure stuff out themselves.

But I think that at the risk of our relationship, I said a hard thing because I thought it was

the right thing that she needed to hear in support of her.

And it went okay.

It didn't go great.

But yeah, I mean, I think, I think it's interesting that that,

I mean, it was really awkward for me to do it.

I was sweating.

I actually am sweating right now thinking about it.

So, what are the guidelines of that, Esther?

Like, how do we know what to say and when to say what?

How do we know how to support and also tell the truth?

So, the reason I picked this question is also because Lauren is 23 and I had just

been asked a very similar question by a young boy who was a young man who was in college and was asking it about his friend.

And

I just thought, these are such interesting questions and they differ

at different developmental stages.

I think that I would respond differently if it's me today vis-à-vis some friends versus me when I'm, you know, when I'm not yet so sure about things, but I sense things, right?

And I don't want to upset you and I don't want to lose you, but I also want you to not get hurt.

It's very easy when you see your friend in a situation

to want to blame the third person.

They found somebody, and that person is not nice to them, is offensive to them, is not respecting them, is living off their money, is exploiting them,

has lied to them, is cheating on them.

I mean, there's a long list.

And

so, the first thing we want to do is pull our friend away from that person.

And the more sometimes we try to pull them away from that person, and the more they actually are gonna get glued to that person, or they're gonna stop telling us the truth because they are embarrassed about what's happening, they don't want you to know that they get scratched on occasion, or not just on occasion, they're afraid, they're ashamed, they're embarrassed, uh, etc.

So,

this is really where the thing is, at this stage, she's your friend, and you, first and foremost, are going to be with her, no matter what she's going through.

You're not going to be the judge of it.

And on occasion, you're going to just say, you know, you seem to really be having a hard time.

Or you're going to look for the places where she has doubts, where she wishes it was different.

Because if you become the police of the problems, then

she doesn't have to see the problems and she can just focus on, but afterwards, he apologizes, but he was really nice this morning.

But he was so nice when we went to visit my mother.

Of course, after the visit, he, you know, it shreds her apart.

So

don't polarize.

Make sure to first get a sense: does your friend here and there think something here is off?

Then, when you get that, then you say, Tell me more.

Don't say, Yes, now that you brought it up, let me tell you what I really think about how off it is.

If you can, this is very hard to do.

That's why, you know, and that's why the experience of life here matters.

Then you say, tell me, tell me more about off.

Get the full sense and then start to feel where the dissonance lies.

And then go in and say, you know,

this is a very good intuition on your part.

What you think is off, I agree, it's off.

And I feel that maybe you don't know how to get out of that.

I'm here for you.

And if you don't have a place to stay, if you don't have money, if you think about it, if you're afraid of retaliation, if you think there's a vindictive person there,

if whatever the thing of the toxic, if you are just going to get broke because you're feeding his habit, or whatever the thing, or his big ideas that never amount to much of anything, whatever the ways in which you think there's a fundamental imbalance in this relationship, then you say,

come spend a few days with me.

Just get out of this for a tiny bit.

Don't force anybody to go, but help them come.

And then bring a few other girlfriends together or friends, no matter who.

They, he, people, warm, loving people, come together.

Because when you're in a toxic relationship, parts of you are falling off

and you become a narrow version of yourself.

Other people need to bring back a mirror of the multifaceted you,

of the you who once could say no, of the you who used to have such strong opinions about things, of the you who could put limits, of the

you, the fuller, bigger you.

That's what you want to bring back to this person because that's where that she will find the strength and the resilience to then make a decision towards this relationship.

Oh, that's the strategy.

That's beautiful.

So it's like not, this is what I think,

it's this is who you are

in a million different creative ways.

That's and in this relationship, you are not the full version of you.

I know you, and this is just chopping, eroding major chunks of you because you are being, whatever the thing is, you know, she didn't explain the toxic is such a complex word at this moment.

What is it that you're sensing?

You know, what is the imbalance?

What is the

inequity and the indignity that you perceive is happening to your girlfriend?

And then bring her back into a circle of people who see the whole of her.

Beautiful.

And then she gets to be her own hero.

She gets to be the one that says, no,

that's not worthy of me.

Instead of

being accepting or being

pushed upon the other heroes heroes who are saying, We're going to save you from this.

She can say, I'm saving me from this.

In any case, she will only go when she's ready to go.

It's just a matter of time, or if

the other person leaves, but it is only a matter.

So, the point is, you're absolutely right.

She owns the story, and you bring back pieces to the story that have just kind of disappeared because you know, sometimes really people barely can remember their name.

Yeah.

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Okay, one last question for you, Aster.

Hi, Glennon and sister.

I

have a question on

love.

I don't know that you get many males to call into this podcast, but

I

recently ended things with my girlfriend or she ended things with me.

And it's caused a lot of self-reflection, self-discovery, and self-love.

And

we have both expressed that we will always love each other no matter what.

And I guess my question is,

when and how do you know

that it's time to

move on from that love, even knowing that that love will still always be there.

Thank you so much for your podcast, and thank you for all that you do.

You may decide that this relationship was a beautiful love story, but it will not remain a life story.

You don't have to squash the love in order to move on.

You may just say, this love is precious, I will hold it dearly, but it is not going to be my life.

That's the first thing.

And then I actually think that in situations like yours, that there are beautiful rituals of conscious uncoupling.

I love the term.

I think it really is so rich,

you know, to say goodbye in a nice way.

You will be in tears.

I've sat with people who do this in my office.

I'm in tears with them.

You know, and it starts with,

this is what I wish for you.

I'm here to say goodbye.

Sometimes I make people write it and then they bring it to the session and they read it out loud.

When I think of us, these are some of the main images, memories, associations that I will have.

And people just basically recount their story.

You know, I think of this bar, I think of this restaurant, I think of this beach, I think of this club, this band, you name it.

It's all the things that we shared that I take with me and that I hope you will take with you.

And so what I wish for you, what I hope that you take with you from me is,

and maybe sometimes people can also say the advice that I would like to give you as your friend.

You know, I will hope that you will do the things that you really have always said that you wanted to do, that you will find a confidence, that you won't just do what you think is what people expect, whatever the thing is.

But people have beautiful advice that they can give to each other in situations like that.

What I take from you, what I will carry with me from the years that we were together, from the time, from the relationship that we had, where I wish I had been different, the things that I take responsibility for that I did or did not do.

And

you will share the sadness of the loss together and you take it with you.

And then after that, you don't stay in touch for a while so that you don't feed on this all the time.

You hold it.

When you think it, you can go and read it.

You can read it again.

You can weep, you can cry, you'll mourn, you'll grieve, and you'll slowly, over time, make new space for love to enter again.

And at that point, you can, if you want to stay in touch and develop a friendship together, you can do so.

I believe that many beautiful relationships can transform into friendships, but not in the moment of separation, because people are not always exactly at the same place either.

You know, you say she broke up, you broke up, it's not sure.

Maybe you made it so that she would break up so that you wouldn't have to do it, or vice versa.

I mean, you know, but the main thing is

it's very important to say goodbye, to have rituals for the end.

Relationships are filled with rituals for the beginning, and they often end up just in some friggin' cold law courtroom, you know,

or with a text or with a ghosting of a person.

And when the way you end and the way you take with you what that was will do everything for what will follow.

Can I say one thing about that, Esther?

Because when you were saying that about the rituals, I was married and basically had a

10-minute conversation that was supposed to encapsulate the entirety of our marriage and literally haven't spoken or heard or seen him in those years since then.

So it was that.

And what I want to say is that I think that it, I think what you said, that that can be done by yourself too.

Like, I really think those rituals, the writing, the talking, it's that, cause so many of us have grieved so heavily not, not being able to do that, not being able to hear from our person.

But I think saying what it was to us

is important because the world will try to tell you that was a sham or that was, that wasn't really love, because how could it have ended that way if it was really love

and so

i love the idea of doing that for yourself even by yourself if you need to well and i'm not mature enough to be able to do it myself with i know that about myself that i don't want to have contact with people from my past in my present like that's something i have to know about myself i don't know if that's right or wrong but that's like what works for me like that's how i get closure is okay that's done and dusted and i'm moving in a different direction

Sorry.

I really don't think there's a right.

And, you know, in the past, we had none of these issues.

We couldn't decide.

You had one relationship.

It was the first person you had sex with.

It was the person you married, and it was for life, and there was no exit.

And that was that.

So having the opportunity to have more than one love relationship in your life, you know, and to then say goodbye, to end it, to end it well, or let well, or to just say, you know, I don't need you as a friend.

You were my partner, you were a lover, but I have friends.

i want other people as friends you're not the person i would choose as a friend totally fine you know but in this instance because i think that you know uh no matter i my when and how do you know when it's time to move on from that love even knowing that the love will stay it's like how do you end how do you leave and Sometimes you need to stage the actual goodbye.

And sometimes the goodbye is done with the person present.

And sometimes the goodbye is done with the person that you carry inside of you.

But you you need the ritual.

Rituals help us transition.

They frame the intention.

They elevate the meaning.

They say, this is over.

We spent months coming together.

We spent years coming together.

We blended our stuff.

And now we disentangle and we part.

So our dogs, Honey and Hattie, are sweet, spoiled, and insanely picky when it comes to food.

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Speaking of parting,

tragically, it is time to wind down.

Esther,

I just have such deep admiration and respect and love for you as a person, but for the work that you do,

the number of my friends whose relationships and lives you have changed and touched, I just, I don't know if you go to bed thinking about the effect that your work has had on the world, but it's profound.

And I'm deeply grateful.

Thank you.

And I, and I love even this

theme of these two episodes, which maybe I'm just hearing as a raging introvert, but there's so much of what we've talked about that is work that has to be done on our own.

That is relational, but like even the bringing the erotic back, even the awakening that part of ourselves that's personal, the

relationship you're talking about with the mother and she has to do that it personally first the the the saying goodbye sometimes has to be done alone so much of this has to do with reckoning with ourselves um y'all we're gonna put everything that estair's ever done in the show notes so that you can order her books and if you're not a big reader get the game My gosh, it's just listen to the podcast.

Yeah.

And the game is like.

Do you have episodes that you love?

Are there episodes that kind of have stayed with you?

Well, for I mean, I've listened to every single episode of Where Should We Begin.

So Where Shall We Begin?

I used to lay in my, I had this little infrared sauna.

I mean, Abby knows.

Like, I, I've, there's several episodes I've listened to two or three times, which I know I wouldn't be able to, you know, tell you specifically.

Well, you, you would walk in from your sauna.

You'd walk in from your sauna and you'd say, So what do you think about

da da da?

And I'm like, you were listening to Where Should We Begin Again?

Yes.

Okay, what episode?

Let me listen to it.

And then we can talk a little bit later.

Yeah.

So it was so helpful for us because we would go, you know, we would listen to your episodes and then we would talk about them as a couple or we'd be at dinner and there was an entire six months where all we said to each other was, I would say at dinner, so what Astair said today.

And she would go, and she would go, what Dax said today.

So it was like she was listening to Dax.

I was listening to Astaire.

And

I don't know.

I couldn't tell you a favorite because I've listened to every single one.

I just so it's interesting because we took where should we begin the podcast and we turned it into where should we begin the card game

because that way you don't have to necessarily listen to everything.

I give you the prompts right away.

Exactly, you can go directly to it.

I mean, and listen, Esther, the game, like Glennon was saying, her mom was here and we had this gorgeous, intense, and vulnerable conversation.

I shared some personal stuff with my kids.

Wow.

Like family trauma stuff with my own children.

They're not going to want to play.

No, they don't.

I know, but like,

I knew it was enough.

Like, they're old enough that they can handle it.

But it's just

for my kids to know me and know an embarrassment or know a vulnerability, like they are witnessing us.

do that.

So they themselves get permission to be that and to feel that they can express themselves and their vulnerabilities or their embarrassments.

So I just think that this game is so awesome.

It was

there.

We stopped at first.

We took out the sex questions,

but now we are strategically leaving in some sex questions, not like scary ones, but ones where we're like, no, we're going to talk about this stuff with our kids.

Like, and they act all uncomfortable, but then they do talk about it.

So it's great.

It's just like, it's this little set of keys that you can sit on your coffee table and you just unlock each other with the cards.

It's just a beautiful thing.

Can we play our pod squatter of the week so that we can let poor Astair go?

We've kept her long and she has the world to save out there.

So,

hello, my name is Cindy.

I love your podcast.

Um, We Can Do Hard Things.

I just was listening to the one about quitting this morning as I was on my walk.

And

one thing that I thought of

was I am so grateful for all the hard things that have come my way and that I've lived through and that I've quit and everything

because

it's gotten me to who I am now and I really, really like myself now.

So I've been through two marriages,

both of them I left

and

it really, it really has, they've been my greatest teachers.

Those relationships have been great, great teachers.

And I'm still learning.

So I just wanted to share that.

So thank you for listening.

Take care and have a wonderful, wonderful day.

Gotta love Cindy.

Yeah.

May we all at one day be able to say, I really like myself right now.

Y'all,

when life gets hard this week, don't forget, we can do hard things, and we'll see you back here soon.

Thank you so much.

We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios.

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