James Gunn's Superheroes Are Flawed But Funny | 2 Bears, 1 Cave

100%.

All right, we have great news.

My regular co-host isn't here.

And so sitting in front of him is a prolific filmmaker.

A sentence you don't normally hear on this show.

But we're super stoked to have him.

So give it up real big for James Gunn, everybody.

Oh, listen to those claps.

Oh, I'm excited.

I don't think I can't fill Bert's shoes.

You should hear their normal claps.

It's usually like really like, yeah, it's really sad.

That was genuine.

They're big fans.

Everybody here is a big fan of it.

And I'm a big fan of yours.

Well, thank you.

As you will know, I've contacted you on Twitter.

Yes, how great you are.

One of those things.

I don't know.

You're very kind.

Just to reiterate to everybody, Peacemaker is on HBO or Max or Max HBO, whatever fucking name they've chosen this week.

It's airing Thursdays

at 9.

Wait, did it come out at a certain time?

It comes out at 9 o'clock.

Okay.

People watch it at 9 o'clock.

That's like old school, like when they give you a time.

It is, it is.

I mean, obviously, you can still watch it at 9.15 or 9, you know, 20, but at 9 is when it drops.

Okay.

It drops at 9.

It's in its second season.

I got to say, dude, I was.

First of all, there's so many goddamn shows now.

Like, you know, when we were growing up, they're like, there's four shows.

Like, you just could just kind of go through shows.

Yeah.

You knew every movie because there was like a campaign for a movie.

And like, you know, to catch up on things, it's it's kind of mind-blowing it is a really fucking fun watch like peacemaker is really fun i was actually i gotta say i was kind of blown away at um not just like what a fun ride it is but like watching cena he's he's

so good he's so good yeah no and this season i mean so we did the first you know you know going way back the reason i wanted to do peacemaker was because of my relationship with john working with him on the suicide squad yeah And I saw something in him that was so, I knew he was a good actor.

And we did the first season of Peacemaker and we worked on that a lot.

And since then, he's gone off and he's acted, you know, in more things between the two seasons of Peacemaker than he had before that.

And the change in him from season one to season two and what he's capable of has been an incredible thing to watch.

So it's notable to you, like as the

oh, yeah, it's it's completely notable to me.

He's, you know, really gone to a place where, I mean, there's a scene in episode one of this season where I'm like, you know, he's meeting his brother from another dimension who's dead in our dimension.

And, you know, he walks out of the room.

And I say, I think you break down crying, you know, John.

I said, don't worry about really crying.

Just like, you know, put your head in your hands and like, you know, heave.

And immediately, he just, the guy walks at David Dedman, who plays his brother, walks out of the room.

And John just has these tears spilled down his face.

And I'm like, what is going on?

This is not the same guy who I worked with four years ago on the first season, who was like, had the scene where he was supposed to be crying in bed and he was terrified to do it because he'd never done anything like that in his life.

He's just, he's much more comfortable in his own skin.

Yeah, that's really cool to watch.

Yes.

To see someone evolve and kind of like get better at their craft, basically.

How do you, I mean, you, so you're acting now.

I'm acting now.

Yes.

And how do you like that?

How do you like the well, kind of like I know that you moved to L.A.

when you, like, when you first, this was to pursue music, right?

No, I.

And then you want to do it.

No, I moved.

No, I.

To pursue music, I made the really wise choice of moving to Tucson, Arizona.

Oh, that's the music haven.

Yeah,

the mecca of

early alternative rock.

No, I lived all over the place.

But I moved to L.A.

in 98, and I was already a screenwriter by the time.

Well, I moved to L.A.

in 2002 with the sole, like the sole purpose was just to pursue acting and comedy acting right like like i wanted to do comedy you weren't doing stand-up i wasn't doing stand-up okay i had no like it wasn't even on the radar yeah and when i moved there i i was like what should i do you know like how do i do this and i knew i discovered that a lot of these comedy actors were they went through the groundlings yeah so i was like that's what i'll do i'll just go to the groundlings yeah so i went there i'm in their school i'm doing the the levels.

And a couple people in my class were like, you should try stand-up.

You would like stand-up.

And I was like, I don't know what to do.

And I kind of followed them doing spots.

And then stand-up just became something that I fell in love with.

Meanwhile, you try to keep like, for me, it was harder to keep like the

burner on here.

I was like, I kind of feel like I have to be all in on stand-up.

Right.

So, you know, every once in a while, I would book something commercial or like five lines on this, but I was clearly on the stand-up path.

Yeah.

But you're kind of like, it never fades.

You're like, I really wanted to do this.

Oh, that's amazing.

So, like, then I did my series, and I just did a feature this summer that we just wrapped.

And now we're going into season two.

So now it's.

What's the feature?

The feature is a script.

It's called El Tigre.

Okay.

Which.

That was the name of my grandmother's cat.

Oh, really?

El Tigre.

El Tigre.

It's a great feature.

That was the first cat I ever met.

That's a great cat.

It wanted nothing to do with me.

So I play

a Mexican cartel leader named El Tigray.

And I also play an American named Jeff, who's his doppelganger.

And so when Jeff goes on vacation with friends, the real El Tigray gets assassinated.

And then people find Jeff and they're like, oh, you're El Tigray.

So he's in this world.

But the great thing was we assembled this incredible cast, and the movie is played like very grounded.

Yeah, I love that.

I I love that.

It's very funny.

I mean, that's Peacemaker, too, really.

I mean, it really is about like, it's a superhero show, but it's not really a superhero show.

It's about human beings, and a couple of them happen to sometimes put on costumes.

Right.

And it's something that's treated, you know, as if that's all completely real.

You know, of course, with comedy and some outlandish characters.

For sure.

It's all grounded.

The camera work is grounded.

The way we acted is grounded.

The performances, yeah.

And it's like, it's great characters.

And, you know, like as an actor in this, I got to do a full range of things.

I got to be like a super violent guy.

I got to break down crying.

I got to have like fun.

Like, I get to be the reactor in certain moments.

And then you get to be like the person bringing the comedy.

So it was the most fun I've ever had.

That's what I, I mean, I love that aesthetic of an outlandish concept like that.

Yes.

Or like Peacemaker going to another dimension where there's another version of himself, but played as if it's, you know, as if we were experiencing this.

That's what makes the funny part funny, though.

Yeah.

And some totally.

Some, you know, execs and producers don't get that.

And they're like, what if you were juggling in this scene?

And you're like, what the fuck are you talking about?

Yeah.

They're like, you know, something funny.

You're like, no, it's funny that we're playing it like it's real.

Yeah, but it's funny.

I love how those aesthetics have sort of caught up with culture because if you remember like way back, like, you know, I remember when Freaks and Geeks,

when it came out on the air and I saw this show, it was like, I just happened to watch it, like on its first time it was on TV.

I have no clue what year that was.

I guess late 90s.

Yeah, late 90s.

And I just happened, and I'm like, holy crap, this is like so grounded and well done and truly funny, not in a forced way, but just funny, funny, and about real kids and shot like a real, you know, show.

Yeah.

Paul Feig was shooting it.

And

of course, nobody watched it and it lasted for not so many episodes.

And everything was so broad back then.

And little by little, with

that, and then the office and, of course, Sopranos and S.H.I.E.L.D.

and all those shows coming out on TV, the aesthetics of what people want have changed and have gotten closer to what I liked

when I was younger and was starving for and never really had enough of.

Do you think we'll have a, like, because everything kind of feels in entertainment and movies like pretty cyclical, you know, like things kind of go in this path, but like comedies, like studio comedies have become, feels like they're just, there's not really that many of them.

I mean, that's the big question.

I mean, people are kind of, and like in the industry, as like a studio head, people are always talking about, you know, you can, you know, obviously some types of movies are harder sells, right?

Yeah.

Dramas.

They're harder sells because you can do them on TV and people can watch them at home with their family and they'll have, you know, everything has, for me, everything should be, you know, could be a theatrical experience is going to be better, but you lose less from a drama than you do from, say, a horror movie where the audience is screaming or from a spectacle film where it's like so big and like knocked up.

Did I screw up your mic here?

Or like,

you know, or for me, a comedy.

Yeah.

But the, but comedies have sort of not been at, you know, the box office.

There hasn't really been hit comedies.

And that, to me seems like the best type of that's the movie i mean i remember going to see like the hangover in the theater which is just surrounded by people i didn't know and you know you walk out of there it's like family it's like being at a comedy show it's the greatest experience and so you know what is it i think I mean, I honestly think it's the material.

I think it is too.

I think that there hasn't been a good comedy that's gotten people to, you know, and there are, maybe there have been some good comedies, but when people go see a bad comedy and another bad comedy and another bad comedy,

then they don't want to go to the theater to see the comedy.

The same with superhero movies.

Like, that's why, you know,

superhero movies have, you know,

it's a harder marketplace.

And one of the reasons is people feel tricked.

Yes.

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They loved going to see, you know, what, what, you know, ever that movie was that got them into superhero movies, whether it was Iron Man or Spider-Man 2 or Guardians or whatever.

And then, you know, they go and then they're like, well, this is really just a pale imitation of that thing that I liked.

And then they go again and they're like, oh, it's, this one's even worse.

Yeah.

And they're like, well, shoot, I'll wait for HBO Max.

I think you're totally right.

I think that like with comedy too,

there's this thing where when you see a trailer for some of these comedies coming out, Yeah, you're watching the trailer and you're like I read first of all I know every beat of this like there's no you always have to have some element of surprise, right?

So like you know the beats and you're like that this is they're putting the funniest stuff in this trailer and it looks like shit and what I always think is I always think about a director because I go you need

I think I think in all filmmaking, you need like a final, like, this is your POV.

Like this is you at the helm.

And some of these big studio comedies, you can just sense that there's 10 voices being like, it's this, it's this.

It doesn't feel like it's one guy's or girl's vision of like,

this is the movie.

And also they lack story.

Like what I like about the idea that you told me about is that

there's an idea that people can hook their hats on.

So having that central idea

that you can put in a trailer and people will understand is good.

But I also think that unlike a horror movie, which is kind of easy to sell in a trailer because all of of us get scared in the same way, people laugh at different things.

And a movie like, again, I'm going to go back to the hangover because I think it's one of the best comedies ever.

That has a central premise that I'm talking about.

And then it has, you know, comedy for like real broad comedy that's just for everybody, Mike Tyson with the tiger.

And then a lot of stuff that's a lot more subtle for the people who really like, you know, nuanced comedy.

Yeah.

And so it works for everybody in the audience.

Well, how do you cut that trailer?

It can be a little bit difficult because you've got to be able to sell that to a mass audience.

And people's

likes, the kinds of comedy they like is more varied than the type of horror they like.

Sure.

That's, you know,

so it's, it can be a little bit harder to cut a comedy trailer.

Does it interest you at all to like,

I mean, you're, you have very funny material in your movies, yeah.

But like to do a comedy that is outside of superhero world, like like

a hangover type story.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, it would be a lot of fun to do that.

I mean, I think there's always an emotional angle to whatever I do.

But,

and I don't, I mean, people often think of, you know, the Guardians movies as part comedy.

I never have, I never thought of, I make myself laugh when I'm writing.

Yeah.

But I never,

I mean, I can't say that completely because I did have a lot of, you know, links with comedy when I first came to town.

And I started my career in a lot of ways.

Every year I'd write a different comedy pilot for whatever network I was

getting work from.

Sure.

But originally when I started writing and people were like, oh my God, it's so funny.

And they're laughing.

I didn't really, I'm like, oh, yeah, I guess I knew it was funny when I wrote it, but that wasn't like the point of what I was writing.

Your point was more about the story and the emotional connection to it.

Yeah, the characters and the fun of it whatever and i think that just naturally it it becomes it's funny because i'm funny i guess yeah you are yeah yeah i mean there's there's uh there's

really funny stuff and yeah but you know laughing in my real life is important i mean it's like you know joking around making jokes like that's my personality in real life and also that's the other thing i mean i get this thing sometimes from fans online why are you know why is peacemaker so funny this is superheroes are serious stuff which of course is silly in the first place yeah but superheroes are serious stuff and I'm like yeah but people laugh man people say dumb stuff yeah people make jokes people laugh like that's if you have a movie that is deadly serious all the way I worked in a hospital when I was young I was like surrounded by people dying and people being brought in with gunshot wounds and I'd have to move all the bodies in the morgue and I we just joked constantly like that that gallows humor that's that thing that's that So I don't care what kind of thing you're working on.

People deal with that stuff through joking.

So pretending like if something's serious, there's no humor in it.

I mean, to me, that's just a crock of shit.

Like that's, yeah.

But that is, that's probably the number one complaint I get.

That's hilarious.

Because I actually think you do like, there's a great balance to it, which I think is kind of key to this kind of world of, you know, you want your superhero to be, you know, heroic and

like badass in his moments, but the balance of it is, it's just the same thing like what I think it was Daniel Craig that brought that up when he was he was cast as Bond.

And then as the movies evolved, he was he was making the point that like, well, he should have his more like flaws and these real moments.

Yeah.

Because otherwise it's just a cool dude walking in every room.

And you're like, all right, he's cool.

That was always a I mean, that was always the difficulty for me with accessing James Bond.

I always loved James Bond.

but I never got into the world of James Bond like I did into the world of, say, Star Wars or, you know, DC Comics or whatever.

Because he was, it's just a character that's just constantly, you know, everything's pretty good.

Yeah.

No flaws.

And it was really Craig that made that character more interesting.

I mean, also,

I mean, it was not just him.

Yeah.

So it was,

yeah, that was, that was a thing for me with James Bond.

He was just a little too perfect.

There's a couple of superhero movies like that, too, that if the character doesn't have any flaws or depth,

I just don't care.

Yeah, and I think a lot of times you don't realize that you don't care until you see that.

You're like, oh, there's just not, there's nothing.

What's there to access?

I don't know how to relate to this person,

quote unquote,

because

there's nothing there behind the eyes.

It's just this perfect paragon of virtue.

Yeah, that doesn't, I know, it doesn't connect with as many people, I don't think.

Yeah, yeah.

They tended to do that a lot with female characters in the early days of superhero stuff, you know, because they didn't want to make them bad in any way.

And they wanted them to be good examples of everything.

But I'm like, my men, you know, Star-Lord gets to be a jerk.

Like, he's a jerk.

Rocket Raccoon, he's a man.

He's a jerk.

Yeah.

You know, so I, you know, like, you know, I always thought that Nebula and Gomorrah and the other female characters should have as many flaws as those male characters.

That's, I think that's, yeah.

I really hope that

we do see, though, more comedies come back in theaters.

Me too.

I mean, I think we will.

I do think that will happen.

I really do.

You know, as long as the theaters don't close from nobody going out there and see movies.

But I think, but I don't think they are.

I mean, I think in certain ways, theater culture is booming.

We did have quite a few hit movies this year.

Yeah.

And

the experience of going to the movies with things like Minecraft, a movie that a lot of people don't like, but the fact that people made this experience out of it was really cool

for me to see it.

It reminded me of what I saw the older kids doing when they went to see Rocky Horror Pictures show when I was a kid.

Yeah, my kids flipped for Minecraft.

Did they?

They loved it.

Yeah, they loved it.

Yeah, my nephew came home and said, that's my favorite movie of all time.

I'm like, your favorite movie of all time.

It's like, yeah.

He says it about half the movies.

He's like, tell that guy he was amazing in it.

I'll let him know.

I told him.

Who was I?

I told Mamoa.

Oh, Mamoa.

I was like, yeah, my son said you were amazing.

He's like, good.

Did you tell him you thought he sucked?

Yeah.

I was like, I didn't

impress at all.

Mamoa's in next in Super Girl next summer.

Oh, sweet.

He plays Lobo.

Oh, he's great, man.

Oh, he's a great guy.

Yeah.

He's great.

I was going to, I wanted to ask, like, do you,

do you feel?

Because it's it's like, you know, you're in it right now where you, I mean, you hit the fucking, I mean, I don't mean like it's luck, but like, it's like the lottery to be filmmaking, you're the head of a studio.

The first thing I think of when I think of that, I'm like, that's so cool.

Yeah.

Then I think, I'm like, oh, that's a lot of pressure.

Like, meaning that like these franchises mean so much to people.

Like, you, you know, like, you want to honor the character and their story and this audience that loves it.

And then the next thing I'm like, God damn, it's a lot of work.

It feels like it's a lot of work.

It's a lot of work.

Like, I just,

when this job first came up, I was really torn.

When it first came up, it came up outside of the context of Peter Safran and I doing it together.

And that was like, no way.

I don't want to do, you know, Kevin Feige's job.

Like, that's just not my thing.

Yeah.

And then it came up, Peter and I doing it together.

And I just, I knew that for the next few years, I just would do nothing else but this job.

But I also knew that

it was an opportunity that no one had ever had

in terms of being a creative at the head of a studio.

So I had to say yes.

Yeah.

And I'm.

I'm happy I said yes, but it's it's been a rough few years because of that.

And

I'm not sure it's my wife's favorite choice that I've made in our lives.

I could see that.

So it's,

I think that I really,

you know,

it was tough.

And it was really tough.

And I feel, but I did feel a certain amount of relief

after Superman came out.

Yeah.

Because that was a rough road making that movie.

That was probably the toughest time I ever had making anything.

From even from like development through production, everything?

No, really just in, you know, it was hard because it was so, you know,

high pressure.

Yeah.

But it really wasn't post.

It was like

I was trying to make a comic book movie.

And as much as it sounds strange,

I don't feel like I've ever really made a comic book movie.

I feel like the Guardians movies were space fantasies and the Marvel was an asterisk on that.

Like it was really space fantasy first.

It was more based on the space stuff that I loved, like Farscape or Star Wars or whatever than anything else.

And so with this, I was really taking on a character that people loved that was

social attention and could go a lot of different ways.

And so I just, I felt a lot of pressure.

And when it came out and it was embraced by by far the majority of the audience and, you know, did well at the box office, it was a big relief well because now I'm like I looked at Peter and I remember when like the reviews when the reviews came out and

we were on the plane flying to China so the movie hadn't come out yet I have no idea what the reviews are going to be like and I'm playing Bellatro on my on my my uh my little phone as I'm flying to China Peter Saffron's a couple seats behind me and he goes the reviews are dropping in two minutes and I go oh my god don't why'd you tell me that

so i go up and i'm and i'm playing bellatro

and i'm playing like a game for like a half an hour and i'm like oh my god this this must be it this must be a nightmare because peter hasn't come up and said anything and told me anything like oh this is this is

This is terrible.

This is my brain.

This is terrible.

Oh my God, this is the worst thing ever.

This is embarrassing.

Oh, you know.

And then finally, I'm like, I'm not going to go back till I finish this game.

It was a good game.

I finished the game, and then I'm like, you know,

having that great willpower.

And then I walk back and I'm like, What's up?

And he's like, We're certified fresh.

What the hell, dude?

Dude, come on.

I was like, Why did you tell me that?

He's like, It just happened.

We're certified fresh in a half an hour.

And I was like, I was really relieved.

And like, it wasn't necessary, it was joyful, but it was mostly just this relief of like this energy and this drive that I had been holding in my body forever.

Yeah.

Because this was the proof of concept.

Because now we have all these other projects that are related to Superman.

Superman directly leads into Peacemaker.

Peacemaker directly leads into the next movie, the Superman saga.

Superman directly leads into

Supergirl,

totally attached to, you know, all the other things we're doing.

And if it wasn't, if it didn't work, it would have been a nightmare.

And so I was

hugely relieved.

And then I felt like, okay, now I can play.

Now I can have fun.

I'm so excited to do the next movie because I know so much more what I'm doing with the character, who the character is, who Lex Luther is, all of this stuff in a way that I didn't

when I started that movie.

You got great performances in that.

It's a fantastic group of people.

I mean, David Kornswitz is just a movie star, and I knew that from the beginning.

And Nick Holt is incredible.

The movie is really good, man.

It's really good, and it's really fun.

And I love when people tell me this.

This is the rare time that I'll...

My wife was like, make sure you tell him.

And you're like, huh?

She's like, make sure you tell him.

I don't like any of

these types of movies, and I love this movie.

And I'm like, I will definitely tell him.

Oh, I love that.

I'm sure.

I love to hear that.

I mean, because that is, and I hear that.

I hear that.

I mean, I don't want to say like, I hear that pretty pretty often about my movies.

Like, oh, my grandma loves Guardians of the Galaxy.

I'm like, really?

Okay.

Cool.

Great.

Yeah.

She loves that little group.

She does Rocket or whatever.

And I'm like, that's, that is, that's really what it's about for me.

I want to create, and it is, it's so weird.

People think I'm, you know,

whatever, because I go from making something like Peacemaker, which has a bunch of flopping penises in the first episode of the season to something like, you know, Superman, which is made for everyone.

Yeah.

And I don't think of it as like I'm not holding anything back when I'm making Superman.

I'm simply speaking to a different audience than I'm speaking to everyone.

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And a movie is that.

It's a conversation with the audience.

It's not a one-sided thing.

I'm not just putting something out there that has no connection to anyone else.

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And

that's how I feel about Superman versus Peacemaker or whatever.

I'm just in one I'm talking to everybody and in another one I'm saying hey, this is this is for the adults.

Yeah, it's like boy talk at the back sure.

It's a little different when the ladies walk in the room.

You're like, hey, shoulders back.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you

do you enjoy the writing process?

Like, do you enjoy writing?

Somebody asked me this the other day.

And, you know,

it's a grind.

It's a grind, but I'd say, yeah, I'd say I do enjoy it.

Because obviously you're writing so many different things.

Too much, yeah.

But so you get an idea cooking.

Are you like, do you go, you know, outline note cards?

Like, what, how do you actually approach writing your material?

It always changes, and that's one of the ways I keep it fresh.

But the main, you know, usually what happens like with a movie is I spend time, I'm usually like doing something else is my main thing.

So like, for instance, working on the new script with Lex and Superman,

I was, you know, promoting Superman.

I'm doing all this other stuff.

You know, I'm editing Superman when I started it, you know, and so I don't have the time to fully commit myself because once I start writing the actual script, nothing else exists in my life.

And so I'm just writing down ideas, short synopses, like real simple first act, second act, third act, trying to find the center of what the story is, you know,

who the antagonist is, who's the protagonist, you know, just dealing with these different things.

And I went through a couple of different things.

Like, I wrote a treatment that was very different from what the treatment ends up being that I gave to Peter Safran.

He liked, but I read it and I was like, there's something missing, you know?

And so I just go through this process of discovery in which the doors are completely open.

I never lock in to anything at that point because locking in at that point is really the death of the creative process because I've done it before where I lock in on this idea and then I find that everything else doesn't work so well around that one idea.

So I play, play, play, play, play.

Then after, you know, time stewing, I feel like I have that thing.

And then I sit down and I write the treatment.

And the treatment is really worked out.

It's, you know, like this, the Mana Tomorrow treatment was, you know, 65 pages.

Yeah.

You know,

eventually I put photos in there as reference from the comics and different things.

And then I give that to my select group of people.

And then they give.

give me notes.

And then I take them in, the ones that I want and don't take in the ones I don't.

And then I get to writing the

rewrite the treatment so it fits.

It fits, yeah.

And then I start writing the screenplay off of that treatment.

And then I finish that usually in

less than two weeks.

Wow.

So, but a big thing that helps is that that treatment is so thorough.

The treatment is really thorough.

And that doesn't mean that that screenplay that I've written in two weeks is that the screenplay is the screenplay.

Right.

Because then I take another bit of time

rewriting that.

And that's real.

That's once I'm done with that screenplay, screenplay, that's the fun part.

Then I'm going and I'm improving and making it better, you know, and then I finish that draft of the screenplay and I give that, which I've, you know, did with all the DC Studios folks.

And then they give me notes on that, which is always the,

you know, fun and terrible part of the process.

You know, this time, you know, the movie works, but there are things that I'm still doing to improve it.

And then I'm going to, you know, now I'm finishing up the next draft of that.

Wow.

I wondered if, because I was thinking about this, because I've just come off of two productions.

Yeah.

And you always, before you are actually like producing,

when you hear budgets, they just kind of, you just go like, oh, like, that's a lot of money.

Yeah.

But when you're doing productions, the one thing that you think of when you think of big budgets, you think about time.

Right.

Like, so like I just came off of this feature that we shot.

We had 25 shooting days.

Yeah.

And you realize that everything,

every day is like, this is wildly important.

That's, oh, it's so so hard.

And there's like nothing you can do.

Like, we just got to get this shit.

And so, when I think about like big budgets, I always go, like, now when I watch everything, I'm like, God, I wonder how many days they had.

Like, that's how I watch everything.

Now, I'm like, so I was watching Superman.

I was like, God, I wonder how much time they had to do this.

Well, I'll tell you, you know, it seems like we have a lot of time.

I think we shoot in like, we usually do 91 days and then we, you know, something like 90, 91 days, and then we set aside a few days for pickups because I always find

that you have little things that you want to, you know, screw a little tighter, a little looser.

And so that's how much time we have.

But the thing that's different about me is I don't have second unit.

Oh.

So I really,

I shoot all of

everything.

Everything.

And every movie I go.

I got to have some second unit this time.

And because I really have a guy, Wayne Daglish, who is my stunt coordinator, who I really trust and like.

And then I keep stealing second unit from him.

Yeah.

Wayne, this time it's going to be different, I swear, man.

So, you know, but it's, yeah, but I really, so it is 91 days.

Whereas, you know, you take a movie like a recent DC movie before we were involved was like, I think they shot for 91 days, but then there was like 60 days of second unit.

God, really?

Yes.

I don't even know how you afford to do it.

Do those 90 or 91 take into account like

just whatever going wrong?

Like, in other words, you have a big set piece and there's a lot of action or whatever, and that day, just inevitably in production, things like, does it take into account that we might have to do it?

Without a doubt.

So, the guy who does all my scheduling is Lars Winter.

He's been my AD for many years, and now he is the head of production at DC.

Okay.

And now he produces, you know, our move our movies with me and Peter.

And

Lars, you know, he's been making, you know, he did, you know, Avengers and all, he was an AD on all the biggest movies ever.

Not all of them, but many of them.

Sure.

And

he really knows what goes wrong and what doesn't.

But also over the years, he's learned what I do differently,

which is a lot.

So, for instance, you know, I was way under budget on every movie I made up until Guardians 3 was the only one I wasn't.

But I was under budget on Superman 2.

Really?

Yeah.

And

it's like, I just, because

I really care about it, I started making movies for like 250 grand.

Yeah.

So I know

what it means.

I don't like waste.

And I don't like keeping the crew there for endless hours.

So we say, you know, we shoot whatever, 12-hour days, and then we're done.

Like, I don't ever, you know if i have overtime maybe once a whole shoot we go two hours into overtime like but other than that i never go i rarely ever go you know more than 10 15 minutes into you know over the schedule yeah so like those kinds of things are things you learn about a filmmaker and that is not the norm um and so they have learned over the years that when I have a schedule, I usually stick to that schedule pretty closely.

Sure, they love that.

They can count on it.

Yeah.

And I have, you know, VFX, you know, a supervisor who I've worked with on many movies now.

He tells me the amount of shots I have.

I say, in this sequence, we'll need less, or in this sequence, we'll need way more.

Steph, you got to figure that out because this is how many shots they are.

I storyboard, you know, I draw every single frame of the movie so I know what the shots are, which I change, but not enough that it's going to make everything crazily different.

And so, yeah, and so sometimes you always go over on some sequences and under on other sequences.

And Lars has learned that over the years.

Yeah,

that's fascinating.

I also think about, too, like, how good special effects are now.

You know, like when you watch things, like I was watching Superman and you're like, man,

you can't believe what you're seeing.

Yeah.

And then I feel like there's like a, I was going like back, when's the cutoff of like this is buy up?

Like you buy it still.

And I feel like the one where I'm like, oh, it's still like, because everything, you know, every year it gets like a little better.

I feel like Minority Report, you go, like, this is now it's like 20 years old or something, yeah, but it still looks good, like, the effects look good, yeah.

And if you start going further back from that, you're like, this is, yeah, that's, I mean, I think that's the reason why superhero movies, people are like, oh, why did superhero movies all become the rage?

Yeah.

And it's, it's simply visual effects.

I mean,

Iron Man came out, and that was like the first B-list superhero that came out that was a box office hit.

Yeah.

The reason is because the visual effect, I mean, the movie was really good.

Yeah.

But the visual effects were also believable.

And, you know, you think about the stuff that we saw in the 80s and 90s with superheroes.

And it was like, you're like, I can't believe it.

It was like ridiculous looking.

You can't believe it.

You can't fully put yourself into that character.

There's one shot, and this is not a superhero movie, but if you watch The Fugitive, which is a great movie.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that style movie is also not really done anymore.

It's almost like a procedural feature, you know, and it's really, it's really good.

Harrison Ford jumps off a train.

Yeah.

It's just one shot.

And you're like, what the fuck is that?

Because it's like the green screen is so, it looks like, it looks like a green screen from 20 years prior.

It's like an insert.

And you're like, what is that?

And it's so goofy when he jumps off of it, especially the moving shots.

You know, this is like a, this is a still, I think, but it is,

really bad.

When you're watching it, you're like, this is really bad.

Oh, wow.

And every time that movie's on, it's like one of those movies that you'll just pick up if it's on.

You're like, yeah, I'll watch this for a while.

That scene comes, I'm like, oh, my God, I can't even.

Yeah, that's a great meme that people should use under post about movies where they don't like the visual effects.

It's really bad, dude.

It's really bad.

Yeah, I still, you know, there are things that I'm really impressed by, and then things I think that we can improve a lot.

I have a really, really

an eye with visual effects.

That's well, yours has to be like hard, like so

developed.

Yeah, I mean, like, it never looks real to me.

So, the one thing I will say that, you know, in Superman, the things I'm really proud of, there's some work by Framestore, who did

crypto

in

the early scenes and in some later scenes too, and who did

the Superman robots when they weren't practical.

And

it's very hard to tell that it's not real.

Really?

I think so.

Yeah, I mean, it's like, you know, that stuff with crypto and the snow and it became.

Well, even like, I mean, I have no idea how this shit's done, but like, when

who's the Spanish actress in Superman that's one of Lex's like bad guys?

Yeah, yeah.

Gabriel.

Gab, like, the way, like, her...

The effects of like her hands turning into shit and like morphing.

Yeah.

I mean, you watch that and you're like, I don't know how this is happening, but it's so believable.

Yeah.

It's so like visually impressive.

Yeah, I'll get it better still.

Yeah, I'm sure you will.

I mean, there's still, there she is.

There she is.

She's the best.

She's about the best person in the world, by the way.

She is, she fulfills, you know, her and Nick Holt both, you know, are a testament to the fact that I don't know why, but the best villains are the nicest people.

I believe that.

You know?

Also, the best,

I was explaining to people on the set about this actor playing a, he's dumb, right?

The character's dumb.

I'm like, you get that that guy's smart, right?

And these people, friends of mine, they're like, what do you mean?

I'm like, you can't play dumb if you're dumb.

You don't, you're too fucking dumb

to do it.

Like, you have to know.

I'm instantly going to, I got, there's got to be somebody I know that was good at playing dumb.

Yeah, playing dumb takes intelligence, you know, like to actually have it read well.

Yeah.

You know that we were talking about pickups.

Do you, do you know that, um, have you heard that James Cameron Matt Damon story?

Do you know that?

No.

It's really, it's kind of fascinating.

So I heard Matt Damon tell this story where he got a call from James Cameron and he goes, hey,

I'm doing this new movie, Avatar.

And he tells, he goes, I don't need a movie star.

Okay.

Like he tells him, I don't need, it doesn't need a star.

Yeah.

But I'd like to offer you the lead

because I just think you would be great in this role, you know, and like the movie will work without a star, but I'm give, I would offer it to you and I'll give you 10%

of the revenue.

Right.

And

Matt Damon tells him, he's like, well, I really appreciate that.

Technically, I'm available, but we're going to be having just wrapped the last Born, like one of the Born trilogy or whatever franchise movies.

And he goes, and we always do pickups.

And so I don't want to put that production in a bind.

by signing on to do yours and knowing, I just know we're going to have like especially because you know, this is crazy action.

He's like, We always have like quite a few pickup stuff, so I just don't think I'll be available.

And so, James told him, Well, I really respect that you are showing your production that, and that's fine.

I'll just go.

And then David goes, It would have been about 350 million that I would have made.

I was like, God damn, that's a crazy amount of money.

I wonder what James Cameron meant by 10%.

That's my, it's just because there's no way that's that's his story.

I don't know, but I'm I'm like, that's

ask him about that next time I see him.

That's a pretty, I mean, pretty sweet offer, though, right?

Yeah, I just,

I'm not going to say I doubt the story.

Yeah, well, but Cameron's not stupid.

Please fill me in if you have the answer.

I will.

I will.

I'll let you know.

I'll let you know.

But I do believe that he was offered the role and was offered a great amount of money that he would have made off of it.

You know, much more than he made off.

But listen, Born Ultimatum is one of the best action movies of all time so there you go the born stuff is so fun dude and also you know what he can still pay his bills he's fine he's doing just fine yeah i've seen

i know how much he made off of one of his last movies so it was okay i'll tell you afterwards okay

okay cool cool do you how much time do you guys spend like as

the you know the heads of this planning out where DC goes next?

Like, is that a big

feels like it would be a big thing?

It is a big thing.

Well, I I mean, one of the things that we did was when we first took over,

I had written up what,

God, what point was what?

But I had written up like what the first shows were supposed to be, and then, but where the story eventually went.

And so then we met with David Zazlov, who's the one who hired us.

We told him what the basic plan was.

He was into that.

We got hired.

He was the only one that knew that.

And then we told Mike DeLuca and Pam Abdi, and they were into it.

And Casey Boyce is out of HBO Max.

So we had a basic plan, but then I hired a group of writers who I really respected

who came in.

And then we kind of worked out the whole story.

Now.

Some things have changed since then for various reasons, but the basic thrust of the big story is the same.

That is what started in Superman, continues in Peacemaker, goes to the next Superman movie, and then will continue from the movie after that.

And then after that.

So there was always, there was this big, the bigger plan that we came up with.

It feels like it's got to be like a, I mean, with everything you have and just the scale, it's like, you have to think in terms of like decade, right?

Like 10 years.

It's like a decade, yeah.

And maybe a little less, but yeah, but like it's, it's very loose, too.

You want to be, you have to be careful because there were certain projects that were a part of that plan that like because my other rule is that I'm not going to green light anything without having a screenplay that I love.

And there were other things that just didn't haven't worked yet.

And so there's you got to be able to have the big picture in mind, but then also be willing and be able to shift anytime you need to.

So the pinpoints are the same, but some of the specifics have changed.

I have a heavy hitting question for you.

You got it.

Will we ever get a blue-gray Batman?

Is that what you want?

It's just what everybody wants.

I don't, it's not everybody.

No, it's not everybody.

It's not everybody because I have people,

I have somebody saying, please give us this Batman.

And then they put a picture of the blue-gray Batman on threads or whatever.

And then somebody else says, you know,

you're a piece of shit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm like, he's a piece of shit because he likes

a color.

You have a pretty heart.

That's the thing.

There's a religious aspect to so much of this stuff that's very uncomfortable because, you know, should Batman have white eyes?

That's a big subject of conversation.

Like, that's a big combo.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

And it's like, guys, like, that's really what matters.

But those are the things I care about.

Should his utility belt be yellow?

Should he have the yellow crest around the bat?

You know, all of that sort of stuff.

And none of those things are what's most important to me.

No.

what matters is like the character, the story.

And I think that we have a really, really good story now for what's happening with

Batman.

Dude, I'm so stoked.

Yeah.

That was like, for me, I think

age-wise, like I introduction to Super.

So, of course, I saw the Christopher Reeve Superman as a kid.

Yeah.

And you're mesmerized, right?

By these flying.

It's the whole thing.

But the funny thing was Batman,

the Michael Keaton, Batman.

Yeah.

that movie,

I realized, like, in retrospect, it made me

feel like I had adult taste.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, as a kid,

I'm a fucking grown-up.

Yeah, yeah.

Because this shit, I like this guy.

Who's this?

Jack Nicholson?

He's good.

Yeah.

And, you know, you're like, you're like, oh, she's hot.

Yeah, I like her.

I like her.

Yeah.

I like adult women.

Yeah, I like adult women.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Keaton was awesome in it.

Like that introduction to that world.

And I watched it recently, and it definitely, it feels like a little more

like, I don't want to say cartoonish, but you know, it's such a, it's, it is a separate, like the tone in my memory is not the tone of the film.

I, I, I totally understand what you're saying.

Um, but I was like, that was like, I was like, so in where I was like, I love it.

Now, did you like Batman before that?

Or was that what got you into Batman?

No, I did like Batman before that.

And I even, because,

you know, as a kid, they were playing even the old adam west oh yeah like you know so you i was like oh batman's cool batman i was like batman robin i thought it was like cool character i had some comic books but you know that movie for me so i was like i didn't realize this is i think i forget what year this is but 89 was the first batman so that that's perfect because i'm 10.

So if you're 10 years old, you go, oh, this is a genre of film?

Like, I don't even know this is a thing, really.

And it just catapulted into always wanting to see Batmans because like that was that set the bar for me of like this is awesome.

Yeah, that's what I think that's one of the fun things about Batman though is that there are so many expressions of Batman that are cool.

Yes.

And different ways to access that character is one of the ways in which he's so iconic.

So I don't think it's a matter of the blue and the gray or the black Batman.

I think both those things are really cool.

I like the detective Batman, but I also really like the fighter Batman that's just the brute that's

fighting.

I like the, you know, I like the, I like the silly, you know, 50s Silver Age Batman with Batmite, and that's kind of closer to what the original Batman TV show was like.

I like all of these different, you know, versions of Batman.

But I will say, in the same way, that was your experience with Batman.

That was my experience with Batman 2 as a kid,

because I'm older than you reading the

sort of early 70s Neil Adams Batman comics that were much darker and grittier.

And I was like, oh, I like this Batman.

You know, I had seen like the sillier Batman.

I'd seen the sillier Batman on TV.

And I'm like, oh, this is gritty, cool Batman.

And that was the thing that made me feel more like, if not an adult, at least a teenager.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Eight or nine years old.

It makes you feel like a little more grown up.

Yeah, and I really liked that about, I really still like that, that version of, I like that, that version of Batman that was sort of a Batman that we've never seen.

There it is right there.

See that one in the upper left corner?

That's the one.

That one there?

That's it, man.

That was my favorite story.

That was in a compilation of Batman comics that I read.

And I just thought it was the greatest ever.

And it was Batman, Supernatural Batman too, which is something we've never seen Batman in like a sort of supernatural environment.

Were you like a huge consumer of like were you like voracious?

It was my life.

It was your life.

It was my life.

So this is like destiny, is what it feels like, kind of.

Well, I think a lot of people had that as their life that are not the head of DC.

That's true.

But it's cool that the person who is the head does come from that DNA.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, like,

I spent so much of my childhood skipping school, staying home, and drawing comics.

And the main things the one of the main things I drew were these characters and comics with Batman so I drew like DC comics and I had you know all my own characters who I liked to have fighting with teaming up with Batman that's so cool dude when you um but I'm a big guardians fan I mean I think obviously a lot of people like that's the thing where you're like this is like such a fun ride thanks and you're a big Star Wars fan too, right?

So when you're not as big as I am a comic book fan, but Star Wars was revolutionary for me when the first one came out.

Like, it really opened me up.

I just, and I, you know, for the last, my kids are nine and seven, two boys.

And for the last several years,

every, you know, you go like, hey, wait, you check this out.

I would bring up Star Wars.

They're like, we don't want to see that shit.

And I was like, what?

And I was always like, no, they're like, no.

Like, these were always like, I don't want to see it.

And I was, I would try, and they would just,

and then this summer, I was like, you guys want to watch Star Wars?

And they were like, yeah, okay.

And I sat them down and we went through

New Hope, Empire, Jedi.

And then we went to

whatever the

first

Phantom Menace and then Attack of the Clone.

The funny thing was, they watched those first three locked in.

Yeah.

Locked and they were like, who's this guy?

And I'm like, that's Darth Vader.

They're like, what kind of fucking name is that?

I'm like, it says guy who lives in outer space.

I don't know.

Like, they were like questioning everything, but then like really into the dark side and good.

Like you realize like the lessons of the movie, like it really impacts.

Yeah, it's really, yeah.

And then we got to the newer ones and I couldn't keep them in their seats.

Like they would just get up and walk around.

They're slower movies.

They're slower movies.

I mean, Phantom Madison in particular is much slower.

Much slower, but those first three, they really got into it.

But I'm wondering.

Did they see Rogue One?

No, we didn't make it up to Rogue One yet.

They should see that.

I'll try to get that.

I think Rogue One is great.

It's great.

It's like up there with my favorites.

Rogue One is awesome.

Yeah.

When you're making or you know, feeling that I know that George Lucas was influenced like big time, I think Curaçao, but he always references Joseph Campbell with mythology.

Do you like think of mythology and everything as well?

I mean, I think of Joseph Campbell because my background is I have a MFA in writing, in prose writing.

And I've always

studied all of that, you know the hero's journey and and you know those books made a big difference to me as a writer you know kind of finding things that are innate in storytelling no matter what um

but uh

yeah i'm i'm into all that stuff but i also think

you also got to be open for whatever is yeah not that and when you i was because it's like a space fantasy guardians i'm saying right like it's that whole world do you have to like entertain the idea of like, is this too much?

Like, like, and they're not the same movie at all, but does that enter your mind when you're making something that like this?

No, because like when I started working on one of the things that inspired me to do Guardians when he first asked me, you know, when they first asked me if I was interested,

I wasn't certain at first.

And the first thing that sort of snapped in was Rocket Story.

And the second thing that snapped in was

this could be Star Wars for kids

to allow kids to feel like I felt when I saw Star Wars, but it's many years later.

And that means that that voice is much different than what it was when Star Wars came out.

So it always felt innately different from Star Wars

while having the same impact.

Okay.

You know, the same impression of Star Wars.

You want people to have an emotional connection.

I want them to have that feeling of magic.

I just, you know, for me, it was like I remember being a kid when the first Star Wars came out.

I was, I had never seen a PG-rated movie before.

And I was in the grocery store, and I saw People magazine with like C-3PO and

Chewbacca on it.

And I was like, oh, my God, I want to inject that into my brain.

Yeah.

And so that was that excitement.

And I knew that I could do that with kids with Rocket and Groot.

Yeah.

I mean, they're, yeah, you connect.

Yeah.

Like,

like, and the humor's there.

Like, you get huge laughs.

And like, it's, it's so fucking cool, man.

How did, like, when

they pitch you this, or this is presented to you,

is it that you connected to those characters, and that's what drew your interest?

They had already announced, Marvel had already announced that they were doing Guardians of the Galaxy.

And they had shown an image.

They had announced it at Comic-Con already.

And they had shown an image that one of their concept artists had drawn of

the Guardians.

And

so that's what they pitched to me.

And so I went,

you know, I honestly, at first, I was like, I mean, first of all, I didn't really think I was being taken that seriously.

I didn't know how seriously they were taking me because my movie before that had cost $2 million.

But I was driving, but my first reaction was honestly like,

I don't know about this.

Like, it seems kind of like Bugs Bunny in the middle of Star Wars, and I just don't know about it.

Like, I just, I don't, you know, I don't want to write the first Marvel Bomb, which is what every article said before the movie came out.

And I was like, I just don't know.

But then once I said, okay, we'll take it.

Let's just like forget all those voices for a second.

I'm like, if Rocket was real, this goes back to what we were talking about initially.

If Rocket was real, what would he be?

And I realized he would just be the saddest creature in the universe.

And that he was this innocent little animal that was turned into something he shouldn't be.

And that that was this incredibly melancholy center of what otherwise would seem like this kind of peppy, happy franchise, which is what I think the whole trilogy is about.

That moment and Rocket's journey through those three movies, who to me was always the protagonist of those three movies.

And he was the one I related to.

That's it.

That's the original piece of art.

So you see how it's like, Grit looks like a skeleton guy.

Yeah.

I don't know what's going on with Rocket.

Gamora doesn't even look like they totally thought her out.

Yeah.

But Starlord is.

And this is the first thing they presented.

That's what they showed to me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I don't know.

I mean, I just thought, I mean, that's a really cool piece of art, but it does look a little bit like something on a cereal box rocket.

Yeah.

So

I, yeah, and that's, that's, that's what started out.

But once I came upon that, then I was off to the races.

It was like, I couldn't stop.

I was crazy.

And, uh, and then I, I just, you know, went nuts.

What do you, do you have, do you do anything for fun?

Because I don't feel like you have any time.

Um,

uh, well, I talked earlier about I played Pilatro on my phone.

I remember that

flights to China.

Um,

um,

I have a group of guys who I've been friends with for 20 years.

Yeah.

And, uh, and when I'm in LA, we meet once a week.

That's cool.

Yeah.

One of them I've been friends with for longer, since 95.

He's been my best friend.

He's in most of my movies, Steve Black Art.

Oh, yeah.

And,

you know, I smoke cigars.

Nice.

Fuck yeah.

You smoke cigars?

Yeah, sometimes, yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah, so I do some things.

I really, I don't, I have a hard time getting joy from anything that that doesn't work.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, so I mean, I relate.

Yeah, that's, that's, uh, that's, it's, it's a, it's a problem in my life.

Yeah.

You know, I'm trying to figure out ways that I can have fun doing other things.

I mean, I take my dogs for a walk once a day.

That's fun.

Yeah, sure.

I guess.

I mean, it's, it's calming.

Yeah, I get that.

I don't think most people are like, you know what I do for fun?

I walk my dogs.

I walk my dogs.

Yeah, but I get it.

On my property in Atlanta.

How do you feel?

Okay, I got to ask you these couple things.

How do you avoid,

because I think this happens to people who

achieve great success, especially in comedy, where then they go, I'm going to take myself real seriously now.

Do you know what I mean?

I mean, I'm not going to name, there's countless examples.

Name some.

I'll tell you after.

When we talk about Matt Damon's stuff.

Matt Damon's money and stuff.

But you know what I mean?

Like, you're in, in because you're obviously like a very talented filmmaker but there's also

comedy is a big part of what you're doing uh there's comedy in in everything that i've watched and i'm like yeah like how do you do do you you know i mean do you need to be reminded or do you think it's just innately in you to not you doesn't seem like you take yourself and your material too seriously like you still honor it and your story still is i mean i i honestly like i i wish i want to say i want to sit here tom and look good to you and say oh i don't take it seriously.

I know you take the worst.

But I take it so seriously.

I mean, I take the characters so seriously.

Like, I really, I believe in the characters.

I cry every time I, you know, like, there's a, you know, you know, episode six of

Peacemakers coming out soon.

There's a scene in that that I cry every single time I see this scene.

I get moved in the first episode of Peacemaker when I see, you know, so there's stuff in there I take really seriously.

Superman,

there's a lighter touch to it,

but I take the characters really seriously.

You know, I really, I love those characters, you know?

So I do take it seriously.

I just.

I guess I meant like you don't take

you don't take yourself and what you're doing so seriously that you I don't give a shit about being perceived as a serious filmmaker.

There we go.

I mean I mean, if I had my brothers, would it be like, oh, yeah, like that, you know, they can, people like me like in the same way they like some serious guy?

Yeah.

Maybe, I don't know.

But like, it's just, I'm here to play and make money.

Like that's, those are the two things that I like.

Yeah.

You know, and so it's like, I'm just, you know, trying to

create stories that people can become involved in.

Yeah.

And

create big stories and myths, modern myths.

That excites me so much.

But I don't care so much about being a filmmaker, frankly.

And you know what?

I'm I'm not the same kind of like, you know, I talked to my friend Edgar Wright.

I love Edgar.

He's a total filmmaker.

He watches so many movies, but I love comics.

I love TV shows.

I love movies.

I love storytelling.

I am ultimately married to storytelling, not to cinema.

Yeah.

You know, as much as I love cinema, and it's probably my biggest love of all of those things.

I love mostly my mistress is the craft of storytelling.

Yeah.

Did you watch watch

the limited series, Ripley?

No.

You've never seen it?

Dude.

I'm missing out?

Yes.

Okay.

I think, honestly, I think it's a masterclass in storytelling.

Okay, cool.

And it's one of the best things I've ever seen.

Okay, cool.

And I remember that I was a big fan of the feature, the talented Mr.

Ripley.

Yeah, me too.

And I was like, oh, it's a beautiful film.

I mean, it's just a great.

fun movie.

And when I heard there's a limited series, I was like, that's so dumb.

Yeah.

That guy's a really good actor, that guy that plays Andrew Scott.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But as, like, just, I only say this because you, you were like, you know, storytelling.

This is like,

it's, you know, to me, when I, when I'm watching something, if you can tell some story, part of the story is just visual storytelling, like you don't even have dialogue, and you actually are following the story.

This series does that so unbelievably well.

It's just, I mean, it's beautifully shot.

The performances are incredible, but it feels like masterclass storytelling.

It's in black and white, right?

It's all in black and white.

It's unbelievable.

Yeah, unbelievable.

They should colorize it.

They could do that, yeah.

We could send them a note.

I know a couple people there.

You send them a note?

No, let's send them a note.

I have Ted Saranos' number.

Yeah, yeah,

just give him a quick text.

Hey, man.

Yeah, let's.

Can you update this?

My last, I gotta ask.

People will like it more about

casting, because this is like a fascinating process.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I know, like, you know,

when something works really well, you kind of just go like, yeah,

it usually stands out when it doesn't work, where you're like, this is fucking weird.

Yeah.

But this cast.

But, like, for instance, Peacemaker has, you have, I think, perfect casting.

You know, we replaced one of the guys.

He died?

First season.

The character that played Vigilante

was played by another actor that we, I would have, please don't show the other actor

we can cut stuff out but Freddie Stroma who who plays Vigilante we had shot five and a half episodes of the first season with another actor and I decided it wasn't working and uh and we uh we we hired Freddie to and I had to reshoot all the stuff with him that seems like

a tough decision it was a tough it was tough to it was tough to to do but luckily we were, again, very under budget.

We still ended up really under budget.

So

we were able to afford to do it.

I did the same thing in the second season with another character, but it was when you just, I mean, you know, if something's not working, you know.

When you first sense it's not working, do you

obviously, like, do you try to like, oh, we'll try to

do something to make it work, or is it just like this just doesn't work?

As far as performances go?

Well, I mean, I tried to make it work every second.

I mean, the very first day we shot a scene, I was like, oh, no.

Like, how can I get, you know?

And then sometimes you feel like that as a director, and then you get to the cutting stage, and you're like, oh, no, it works really well.

It cuts together.

Yeah.

Because I'm really intense on set with actors.

And sometimes it's...

you know, my concerns are just a way to make the scene better and it doesn't match the reality of, oh, the scene's not working.

But in that case, we started cutting it together and I'm like, oh, God, this is everybody's favorite character in the script.

And

he's my favorite character in the show in a lot of ways.

And I am,

it's just not working.

But that feels like that sounds brutal to have.

It's brutal.

It's brutal.

Yeah, it's really.

I only learned, I learned last year about the Back to the Future.

Yeah, that's brutal too.

Yeah.

I didn't know that story.

I know.

I know.

I mean,

and Eric Sultz is a very good actor.

Yeah, he's very good.

He's a very good actor.

And it's like, oh, that sucks.

That hangs over that guy's head for the rest of his life.

It does.

But then, like, when you, like, when you look at it through the lens of

what like he's a very capable actor.

It's not that he's not capable actor.

No, there's a light touch to it that Michael J.

Fox brings that he is that character, you know, and

Stoltz is just more of a grounded, heavier actor.

Yeah.

And it just doesn't match.

It doesn't match.

But how about this is the one where I'm like, there feels like we were talking about Bond, right?

And so, like, they're always talking about like, you know, usually actors, they do three or four.

And then there's this whole thing of like, who's going to get the role next?

And it's like, it's a global dialogue.

And everyone's like, you know, it should be this.

And how come it's not a woman or whatever?

Yeah.

People, you know, you're like, all right.

Well, they, and they finally,

it's always like, you know, it's like, okay.

I mean, he's known for banging a bunch of shit.

But yeah, so have it be like that.

I'll watch that.

I'll watch that movie.

But

I don't know if there's anything that feels like heavier than casting Superman, right?

Like that feels like that is the big, like the big choice.

Absolutely.

So when you're starting.

It's harder than Batman.

It's harder than anything.

It feels like it would be.

Batman's wearing a mask.

Did you see that?

And also, people, Batman doesn't have Batman face.

Like, the thing about our Supermans is they've all had Superman face.

Yeah.

You know,

whether it's Brandon Ruth or Henry Cavill or Christopher Reeve or David Cornswell, they all have Superman face.

Yes.

And that's a specific sort of thing because people kind of have some idea of what Superman looks like from the comics.

So right away, you're incredibly limited.

I mean, think about all the different types of people that have played Batman.

Oh, here we have.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, you're right.

With Batman, it's like Keaton,

Ben Affleck.

Yeah,

Christian Bale.

George Clooney.

They're all over.

They're totally different.

Whereas Superman's more physically specific.

So I was terrified going into that casting process.

And I said to Peter, I said, if we can't

find

the right guy, I am not going to make this movie.

There's just no way.

I'm not going to

suddenly be like, you know, Paul Giamatti is a great actor,

but I'm not going to cast him as Superman.

I would love to get away with that.

Yeah, that would be amazing.

It would be pretty cool to remake it with Paul Giamatti.

But how long does it do?

I'm going to do my George Lucas recut with Paul Giamatti.

That's the funny thing.

In David's role.

Do you break the David or not?

He knows Paul's a good actor.

Was it a long time to find David?

Here's the funny part.

Yeah.

Second audition I saw.

The second?

Yeah.

And were you locked in?

I wasn't locked in, but I was like, I think we're going to be okay.

Really?

If that's my worst choice, that we're going to be okay.

There was like a guy who I thought was going to be really good, who I'm like, go, you know, I, you know, sometimes I see these guys in like little roles and I go, oh, he's going to be great.

And so I went to, you know, I, you know, I asked for his audition.

And so that when I got all of the auditions on tape, um, and I think people can go online and see, because I think GQ published David's audition.

But when I, when I, when I went and saw that list of all those actors, I watched that guy first and I'm like, oh shit, he's not, he's not it.

I thought he was so hopeful.

And I'm like, well, I really, I also picked out David Cornstall because I had seen him in Pearl, Ty West movie.

And so I watched his second and I'm like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, this is the greatest thing ever because he was, he, he handled the humor.

He's very serious in Pearl.

And so I knew he looked like Superman and I knew he was a good actor, but I didn't know he could handle the sort of wry goofiness of Superman, really.

You know, that's what I like that about Superman.

He's got this sort of farm boy charm goofiness about him that we love and find endearing.

And that needed to be a part of Superman for me.

And so he had that right away.

And I was like, oh, this is cool.

When they auditioned for that,

are they doing like Clark Kent and Superman?

Or is it like just one type of scene?

Are they giving you...

No, I didn't think so much.

There it is.

So it's, I had rewritten, you know, you know, these scenes are going to get out.

So,

well, they, this one didn't actually, but you're afraid they're going to.

And so I wrote another version just for auditions of the interview scene with Lois that's in the movie.

Ah, and that is really where he's being both Clark and Superman at the same time, and he switches back and forth a little bit.

And so that's a great scene, by the way.

Thank you.

And I do feel like you, you kind of surprise yourself as the audience watching that scene

because you don't expect yourself to get kind of like I was like, stop being an asshole to to him just why are you trying to you know i mean like you're yeah you're you catch yourself getting involved yeah yeah yeah yeah you're being a bad girlfriend it was a fun uh

yeah dude did you guys just did that already exist

they're on point how can you not make that now yeah i know is that are you not inspired i i am you know i i am kind of inspired god i love that guy i love that actor um anyway uh yeah so that was that was really so I was very lucky with, with Superman.

And the weirder thing is that then I went to look at all the Lois tapes

and

Rachel was a part of that group.

And so you're like, oh, this is great.

The Loises were, unlike Superman, like.

There were a couple of, you know, the three actors who ended up screen testing for Superman were the three I could see in the role, and there wasn't anybody else.

It was a much more slim pickings.

Loises were, there were some good Loises, man.

That was hard.

Those actors were, you know.

But I screen tested them together and I screen tested Rachel and David together.

And part of it was their chemistry together.

They had good chemistry.

Yeah.

Well, this was so fucking fun, man.

I love it, man.

Thank you for coming in.

I'm happy to finally be here.

Finally, happy to meet you in the middle of the music.

I really appreciate it.

I appreciate you too, man.

Peacemaker airs on HBO Max Thursdays.

It drops at 9 Eastern.

Uh, currently in a second season.

If you have not watched, dude, jump into season one.

It's fantastic, really entertaining, super funny.

Um, yeah, this is this is so, so cool, dude.

Thank you for coming in.

James Gunn, everybody.

See you guys next week.

Bert and Tom, Tom and Bert.

One goes topless while the other wears a shirt.

Tom tells stories, and Bert's the machine.

There's not a chance in hell that they'll keep it clean.

Here's what we call two bears, one cave.