A Late Discovery Adoptee: From Hidden Identity to Advocacy with Melissa, the Adoption Educator

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Speaker 7 Welcome back to another episode of K and Tai Break It Down. We appreciate you joining us today.
We have Melissa, the adoption educator, which I am so excited you're here.

Speaker 7 I appreciate you so much for taking the time to just come out here and, you know, be a part of this whole discussion. It's important.
So, yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 8 I'm very excited to see what we get into today.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I mean, obviously, adoption is a huge, the whole thing that we're kind kind of trying to elevate voices here. And you're an adoptee.

Speaker 7 So, can you like kind of just like give us the summary of the video?

Speaker 5 What is your broad over here?

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 8 Okay, so I'm all these fancy labels to say, um, I'm a transracial adoptee. I'm also a late discovery international adoptee.
What does that mean?

Speaker 8 So, that means I didn't find out that I was adopted until much later in life. So, for me, I was 19.
Oh, wow.

Speaker 8 And my parents whitewashed me, essentially, for 19 years of my life and totally integrated me into their Italian Portuguese culture.

Speaker 8 And then at 19, I found my brother's adoption paperwork that referenced me being adopted. And so the cat was out of the bag.

Speaker 8 And so not only did I find out about myself, but I had to tell him because now I was just like, wow, this is huge.

Speaker 8 So that kind of started my adoption journey of like coming out of the fog.

Speaker 8 And then over the next few years, like I tried to like understand it in college go to counseling there but they had no idea how to help and it just kind of really hit me when i was pregnant with my first child and that's when i'm really dug into like telling my story and learning more about it and doing deep deep research into it and that's how i got my books so it all led me here to the work that i do now to help other adoptive families because i don't want transracial adoptees to go through the struggles that i have and that many others have.

Speaker 7 So, do you feel like when

Speaker 7 you got pregnant, did that like spark something? Because, I mean, you're having your, I mean, technically, it's your first biological relative, right? So, I'm assuming that had to have hit you.

Speaker 8 Oh, my gosh, yes. I think it was during

Speaker 8 the worst part, I think, was the birth, because it was in those moments that I was like,

Speaker 8 How could you let someone take your baby? Right. And that was like the first like wisps of like anger I had towards my adoptive, my birth mom.

Speaker 8 And then after that's when I dug into it because I'm also autistic, so I love researching like my special interests.

Speaker 8 And so I went for it reading all these research papers, reading perspectives from birth mothers.

Speaker 8 And then I learned about the multi-billion dollar adoption industry and how it even affects international adoption. And so I learned about why women place in Colombia.

Speaker 8 That was where I was adopted from.

Speaker 8 And I just knew that, okay, it wasn't really a choice.

Speaker 8 Like, my birth mother did what she could with the resources that she had, which were nothing.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 yeah, so that's that's kind of what sparked me to like really try to find out more. And I went through like a deep, dark depression.
And then I got pregnant with my second child.

Speaker 8 And I just knew that I needed to process it more. So I use writing as an outlet.

Speaker 7 And that's kind of how the books and all that. Is that kind of how it started?

Speaker 8 Yeah, I actually, back in 2019, so my youngest was two at the time,

Speaker 8 I wrote my first essay about finding out that I was adopted and my parents hiding my race and ethnicity. And I wrote that for HuffPoves personal and it took off like crazy viral all over the world.

Speaker 8 I had like BBC, MPR, like

Speaker 8 me. And I was just like, whoa, didn't expect that.
And I was very new to the like publishing space and just like journalism and all that stuff.

Speaker 8 So I was like, I don't really know what to do with this, but I know I want to help more families. And then I just kept writing.
I wrote a lot of op-eds, a lot more personal essays.

Speaker 8 And then eventually I was connected with a publisher at North Atlantic Books. And that's how my books, What White Parents Should Know About Transracial Adoption, came about.

Speaker 8 And it's been a few years now, and we've sold over 6,000 copies. So

Speaker 8 I'm very excited that it has been well-received and been helping families.

Speaker 5 So, when you found these documents, so I take it, so your adoptive parents obviously adopted your brother, also, right?

Speaker 5 So, when you find your, you find these documents randomly, like, how did you bring that up to your adoptive parents, or did you not for a while?

Speaker 11 Oh, I straight up did. Oh, okay, okay,

Speaker 8 yeah, yeah.

Speaker 8 So, I was 19 visiting home with my husband. He was my boyfriend back then.
And I was just kind of just trying to show him like old report cards and just like

Speaker 8 cute.

Speaker 8 And then he sees something and he passes it to me and he's like, you need to read this. And that's when I read the line, like their adopted daughter, Melissa.

Speaker 7 He actually

Speaker 8 for like a millisecond before me, like completely shocked and like, what are you supposed to do with this? Right.

Speaker 8 So he showed me.

Speaker 8 And we turned my house upside down trying to find my adoption records. And then nothing was there except for like a few pieces of my brother's paperwork, which I had stumbled upon a few years prior.

Speaker 8 But Italian conservative families, you keep that stuff hush, hush. So I was like, well, I don't think he's ready to deal with that.
And he was already having some other behavior problems.

Speaker 8 So I was like, I don't want to be the messenger.

Speaker 12 Yeah.

Speaker 8 The messenger never is.

Speaker 11 Yeah. Right, right.

Speaker 8 And so when my mom came home later that day, I had to wait like hours and hours. I just remember her walking in and and I was just like I know I'm adopted and then oh my god

Speaker 8 she started screaming like how dare you go in the office and look at the papers like you had no right and it's like how dare me how dare you yeah for me my whole life yeah so the gaslighting was real and you could just see like the fear in her eyes and so like immediately I was like you need to give me my paperwork and if you don't like I'm gonna get out of here and you're never gonna see me again because I can't believe you lied to me.

Speaker 8 Because for me, it was not like, oh, you're not my real parent. Right.
To me, it was like, no, you lied about my identity.

Speaker 8 Like, you ingrained me, like, this Italian and Portuguese culture, the language, the food, like everything. Like, I was working at my dad's Italian restaurant.
Like,

Speaker 8 we grew up with all those traditions, and it was always beaten into me to

Speaker 8 show who my family was and being a good representative of that. And so, to find out that, oh, so your culture matters, but mine doesn't.
Right. And then

Speaker 8 understanding that, oh, they pushed mine aside because they actually don't like people of color.

Speaker 8 And they were actually very racist. And so that was like a huge hurdle that we had to come across because I was like, why did you adopt two Latino kids? Right.

Speaker 8 And think that race wasn't going to be a problem. And my mom was like, well, I just didn't.
think it mattered. And my dad was like, yeah, you're not one of those.

Speaker 6 So, okay.

Speaker 5 You're like, no, but I am one of those.

Speaker 7 Well, in a way, it's almost kind of hypocritical that you're talking about, oh, represent Italian, you know, and then, but, yeah, but not, you know, it's very, I mean, to me, it seems very like hypocritical to be so, you know, let's, let's elevate this culture, but minimize that one.

Speaker 7 And that must have been like, that must have been really hard to hear.

Speaker 5 Also, from some of just the books that I've been listening to about adoptees and stuff, they say it's very important

Speaker 5 if you are, you know, getting a child that is from a different culture, race, anything like that, that it's super important that you teach them about their culture and where they come from and the food and the music and all of that.

Speaker 5 Like, it's super beneficial to them.

Speaker 6 Like, duh. Yeah.

Speaker 8 It ties in with self-esteem and just like your mental health later on. And, like, for me, there was questions since I was like in kindergarten.

Speaker 8 And I remember because I used to spend way more time outdoors. So I was a lot darker than I am now.

Speaker 8 And there was this little girl came up to me and she was like, you can't play with us at recess because because you're brown.

Speaker 8 And I went home and I was like, What does she mean? Like, what do you mean I'm brown?

Speaker 8 She's like, Oh, well, you know, your great-grandfather, you know, he's from a town in Portugal, and he gets really tan because they had similar olive complexion.

Speaker 8 And, like, at certain points throughout my life,

Speaker 8 like, especially in the winter, I was pale enough to pass enough with my Italian family because, like, if you think of Jersey Shore, especially in the early 2000s, like it was tan, black hair,

Speaker 8 like a lot of makeup and stuff like that. So it it was enough that they had me pass.
So then my brother was able to pass because he was darker than me and looked more different, but we looked alike.

Speaker 8 So

Speaker 8 they they got away with it for a very long time. And they had everybody in the family like in on this secret, like everybody knew except for me and my brother.

Speaker 7 So everyone, everyone in your family you were raised with, they knew you were adopted.

Speaker 8 And we were like the youngest of the cousins. So we were kept pretty isolated.

Speaker 8 We weren't really allowed to hang out much with like friends and even family. And I never like understood why.
I was like, Why, why do we get treated differently?

Speaker 8 Like, we're always more strict, and it was largely because they were afraid that someone else in the family would let the secret out.

Speaker 7 Wow. So, did you are you in contact with them as an adult?

Speaker 8 Yeah, my dad has since passed away a few years ago, but my mom and I are really close. And honestly, my work and that kind kind of inspired us to have these deep conversations.

Speaker 8 Where they weren't even conversations at first, they were screaming matches.

Speaker 8 And we would just go into it about like how I felt, how she felt. And

Speaker 8 it took a long time, but I think as my kids got older, and I started to understand her position as a mother and like have a different perspective on my family, and the fact that you know she immigrated here as a teenager, and my dad immigrated here, and then learning about multicultural

Speaker 8 different things and racial identity, and how, like, the constructs and microaggressions happen, that it was

Speaker 8 kind of giving me some peace of mind because I was like, oh, I know where she's coming from. I know where my dad's coming from.
And it was a little easier with my mom in this case because

Speaker 8 she was just taught in that culture to listen to the man. Like her job was to get pregnant, get married, have kids, take care of them, take care of the house.
Right, you know what?

Speaker 8 That was her sole job. And so the fact that she couldn't carry kids, I was very shameful for her.
And so I had dealt with some infertility problems. I have endometriosis and PCOS.

Speaker 8 And so the doctors told me that like my chances of having kids were like next to none unless I tried early on. So that's one of the reasons why we had children so young.
And

Speaker 8 at that moment, I was like, oh, okay, this, this is what it feels like for her. Like she was afraid that she wouldn't have kids.

Speaker 8 And so that allowed me to have more empathy for her and kind of want to bridge that gap between adoptive parents, adoptees, and

Speaker 8 just the whole community.

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Speaker 7 so in a way it's almost like you know your mom was a first generation immigrant you were like a first generation immigrant from both like in multiple like ways that is like that is crazy did you know so did your did um

Speaker 8 you said your brother's younger yeah he's about two years two and old okay so and they and they adopted from the same area or the same area same orphanage but um so it was an orphanage yeah it was an orphanage in colombia and you were an infant, or I was about five months old at the time.

Speaker 8 The paperwork is always completed. But as soon as I was born, the nurses swiped me away, and my birth mother wasn't allowed to hold me or anything.

Speaker 8 And so then I was put in the orphanage. And my brother was adopted from the same orphanage, but they had since upgraded.
So at 95, they moved to a bigger facility.

Speaker 8 So that's the one that's still there today. It's called Fauna.

Speaker 8 And yeah, so.

Speaker 5 Do you know any backstory of why they just took you from your birth mother so far? Yes.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I actually was able to reconnect with my birth mom a few years ago and found out more of the story.

Speaker 8 And basically what happened with my adoption is that

Speaker 8 you go to the hospital and they pretty much just take the kids away right away and have them sign the paperwork because they're afraid if the moms hold the baby that they're going to change their minds.

Speaker 8 So a lot of times they'll be in the like maturity section of the orphanage and like where they say they help women learn skills and stuff like that.

Speaker 8 And occasionally they'll teach them sewing skills and like reading and writing and stuff like that. But my birth mother was in many abusive relationships when she had her children.

Speaker 8 And she had already placed two of my siblings up for adoption a few years prior to me.

Speaker 8 So I have two elder sisters that were placed before me and an older brother who has since passed away, but she raised him.

Speaker 8 But with one kid, with nobody to help her, and just abusive men that took advantage of her, she had nobody to help her. And she was abandoned as a child.

Speaker 8 So when she was introduced to the orphanage, like people were just telling her, Oh, they'll give your kids a better life. So this is what you need to do.
And so it was pretty much that.

Speaker 8 She was just like, I don't want my kids to suffer. I want them to have more than I do.
And that's the only option she saw.

Speaker 8 And that's what happens with a lot of mothers and parents in these situations, especially international adoptions. About 80% of orphans have living parents and relatives.

Speaker 7 So they already go. So the, so the, you know, the women already go to this place knowing that they're placing the baby for adoption.

Speaker 11 Like, yeah, okay. Yeah.

Speaker 8 They usually try to go like, oh, we know somewhere that can help you with your baby. Okay.
And then you go there and they're like, oh, here's some food. Here's this.
Okay. And this is the program.

Speaker 8 So you get free housing and free food. And then a lot of these women have other children.
So they're multiple mouths to feed.

Speaker 8 So all of a sudden they have a safe home to bring the baby to, like a safe place to

Speaker 8 live for however long they're pregnant for. And then a few months after.
And so

Speaker 8 there's that sense of obligation there. It's just like, oh, you don't want me to help you anymore? Then, you know, well, then I guess you can't stay here.
Like, who's going to feed your kids?

Speaker 11 Like, where are you going to go?

Speaker 5 Do these places get like a cut of the money?

Speaker 8 Oh, there's some adoption like making bank. Like right now, I think international adoption will still is like $60,000, $75,000.

Speaker 5 Right, but I mean like even like the orphanage in Colombia, because like what it sounds like, it's like if the mom is saying, oh, I'm not having, you know, I'm thinking maybe I don't want to do this.

Speaker 5 And they're like, oh, well, then you don't want us to help you anymore and you're going to have to leave. So like I wonder, are they getting a cut?

Speaker 5 Some of this? The birth mother?

Speaker 11 No, the fruit.

Speaker 8 Oh, the orphanage is definitely getting okay.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 5 I'm like, that sounds really pushy.

Speaker 8 But they call it donations to the orphanage. And then the orphanage gets like a glass mural.
And then they're like, oh, this place was donated by so-and-so, this family.

Speaker 8 And then I actually walked through the orphanage last year and we went on a tour. And you just see like cots of like toddler beds lined up.
And we're like, where's the blankets and stuff?

Speaker 8 And they're like, oh, they, they really don't get cold here.

Speaker 8 And I'm like, you're inside with AC. They're toddlers.
They need a blanket. And they're like, oh, well, they have a stuffed animal and a sheet.
And I'm just like, Okay.

Speaker 5 How did you feel walking through that same place?

Speaker 8 Oh my gosh.

Speaker 5 That had to be emotional, I feel like.

Speaker 8 Yeah, it I was kind of numb, but also just like angry.

Speaker 8 There was a lot of anger simmering below the surface because I would ask questions and I'd be like, Oh, so like when a family is chosen, like, how do you prepare the child if they're older?

Speaker 8 Because they're going to a different country. Because

Speaker 8 Colombia adopts out to sometimes Italy, sometimes Greece, sometimes like other countries. So, like the language is obviously different from French to like English or Italian or whatever it is.

Speaker 8 They're like, oh, well, we give them a few language classes, or if like they're going to America, we teach them a few things.

Speaker 8 But we just tell the family that just love them. That's that's enough.
That's all they need to do. Just give them a home.
And I'm like, okay, so there's no education on adoption, transracial adoption.

Speaker 8 You're not preparing them at all.

Speaker 13 Like, no, not at all.

Speaker 7 That seems so like, it just seems like corrupted and just like

Speaker 7 you had to have gotten a really eerie feeling walking through something like that because knowing that you were a little five-month-old in there.

Speaker 7 I mean, that, because honestly, I think it's, it's different than obviously domestic infant adoption because it's rate. I mean, it's five months is so.
I'm wondering, like, how does that play into

Speaker 7 adoptee trauma? Like, being so, you know what I mean? Because you're immediately like,

Speaker 7 it's got to be intense.

Speaker 8 People think that like newborns are like this blank slate, the blank slate theory. And and then statement ever but the thing is

Speaker 8 while my birth mother had me and she was going through this crisis like i was in her womb you know nine months i was listening to the things that were going around her and feeling the stress that she went through

Speaker 8 and then i was immediately taken and placed in an orphanage so i didn't have that uh what's it called the like the golden hour yeah the golden hour time i didn't have that which then when i had my baby they told me how important it is and like, um, how it helps regulate the the body and the temperature and all these amazing things.

Speaker 8 And that's when I'm just like, okay, so I didn't get any of that. And okay, I was immediately on formula.

Speaker 8 Um, yeah, I was taken care of by nurses, but there's like 12 other babies in the infant section. So there was definitely a lot of crying and you know, they can only console so many at once.

Speaker 8 And then my mom, my adoptive mom, she was like, yeah, when, when I had you like as a kid like a baby i would be over your crib patting you and like trying to get you to sleep and you would just cry and cry and cry

Speaker 8 Those are often signs of that maternal separation because even if you are a baby, you still recognize like your birth mother.

Speaker 8 Like they've done studies where they'll have a mother and then have like a blanket and then the mother can recognize which one is their babies and vice versa. Like it's very intuitive.

Speaker 8 And, like, these moments are especially important for development.

Speaker 8 So, for adoptees like me, it often takes us a while to kind of dig into the layers of trauma that there is because it's not just like one thing, it's multifaceted. Yeah, multiple things.

Speaker 7 Yeah, because, like you said, I mean, that's something that only biology can do. You can't get the golden, you can't get the golden iron, you can't feel all that stuff without biology being involved.

Speaker 7 So, even if these people are taking care of you, quote unquote, it's like it's just not the same. I think people, people don't really know a lot about maternal separation trauma.

Speaker 7 And some people even like try to

Speaker 7 don't believe in it, which I think is just, I'm like, it is 2025. There are enough studies out there.

Speaker 7 You're just being, you're choosing ignorance at this point because you can find proof that it's really important for brain development. And I even read a recent article that kind of talked about how

Speaker 7 that it's a traumatic brain injury. They're considering it for these adoptees to actually not have that.

Speaker 8 Even they said even even three hours of the baby can regulate and it with and when they don't have that how does the brain develop the foundation of what they're developing on is is trauma and if you just look at families like um families who are end up in the niku right right babies sometimes don't have that opportunity because medical attention needs to happen but then the nurses and the doctors all encourage it because it's so important for the baby's health their physical health and their mental health and it's like literally any other family structure.

Speaker 8 If you heard a story of a mom giving birth and then the baby just being snatched away, you wouldn't go, aw, how lucky, how great that baby is now set for the rest of their life happily ever after.

Speaker 8 Any other situation, and you would be like, oh, yeah, it's so wrong.

Speaker 11 Right.

Speaker 7 Obviously, you know, being more farther in your journey with your mom, who obviously sounds like you've repaired some stuff, does she, did you like explain maternal separation trauma, why you cried so much as a baby?

Speaker 8 Did she like yeah, and it took a while for her to understand because adopted parents are really clinging to this you are saving a baby in need.

Speaker 8 So for me and my mom, she explained it like, oh, well, you know, I was told that there were babies in need in Colombia. I knew like a lawyer who had adopted from there before.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 you know, we got this picture of you. We knew you didn't have a family and that your mother couldn't take care of you.
So we brought you here to even live a better life.

Speaker 8 Yeah, even though you had a family, and like I think the immigrant part too, um, because my dad and her, like, were whole like American dream is anything is possible.

Speaker 8 You're here, you can work from the ground up. Like, we brought you to America, America is going to give you the best opportunities here.

Speaker 8 So, like, obviously, um, and there were moments when I would try to explain to them, I was just like, Yes, I had food, I had shelter, I had a family that loved me despite its faults.

Speaker 5 Um,

Speaker 8 but I did lose a lot of things too.

Speaker 8 And originally, my dad and her would say things like, Well, if it wasn't for us, you would be on the street selling yourself or,

Speaker 8 you know, selling drugs or whatever it is.

Speaker 5 And it's like, How do you know that you don't know that?

Speaker 8 You know, but that there you go. That's the misconceptions and the prejudice that many adoptive families have.

Speaker 8 And if you look into adoptive families, especially families adopting transracially to another culture, they will have a lot of bias about the race and ethnicity their child is coming from, and will see the child as the exception to the rule.

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Speaker 7 Oh, that's interesting.

Speaker 7 Cause I think the transracial adoptee space is something I'm not too familiar with, but I've heard enough to where it's like it adds a whole extra layer of the trauma that adoptees feel, you know, versus domestic, you know, infant.

Speaker 7 So it's like, yeah,

Speaker 7 it adds a whole nother layer because now I have to, I have to undig this whole culture that was hidden for me.

Speaker 9 Yeah, and like learn it.

Speaker 5 Understand it.

Speaker 7 In a way,

Speaker 9 having to learn it because I was robbed from it.

Speaker 7 It's a totally different thing to handle.

Speaker 8 It was completely like wiped away. And I had so many moments throughout my childhood where I was questioning things.
I was like, huh, like people keep coming up to me and speaking in Spanish.

Speaker 8 That's odd.

Speaker 11 Oh, that's really weird. So I'd be like, mom, dad, what's going on?

Speaker 8 They're like, ah, you know, they're just people. Just ignore what they're saying.
And I was kept very, very isolated. Like, I was only allowed to have a few friends that were Italian.

Speaker 8 And when I went over to play with them, my brother had to come with me.

Speaker 8 And it was just like I wasn't really exposed to other families and understanding how typical American families function until like high school. And that's when I started working and getting out more.

Speaker 8 And then that's when I had more people come up to me and just speak in Spanish and

Speaker 8 like just ask me where I was born. And I'd be like, oh, yeah, I was born in Colombia, but you know, my parents are Italian Portuguese.

Speaker 5 And they'd be like,

Speaker 8 and I'm like, what?

Speaker 11 Like, it completely.

Speaker 8 Because once you're told something every single day of your life, like it's hard to believe, like, why would someone lie about that? It's

Speaker 8 so odd. But looking back, like, I was just like, yeah, you know, there were signs.

Speaker 8 Definitely missed a lot of them.

Speaker 8 But.

Speaker 8 I feel like things happen for a reason, and I wouldn't go back and necessarily change it. But

Speaker 8 I definitely think there are things that my parents could have done to support me more, and even in just like adulthood,

Speaker 8 there wouldn't have been as many struggles if there was at the very basis, honesty, right?

Speaker 5 Because that's what I'm thinking. Like, one thing do you think that they could have done differently was just raise you knowing you were adopted? Yeah, like, I think that's stupid.

Speaker 5 I couldn't imagine being 19 and then just finding out, like, that's a huge traumatic thing to happen

Speaker 5 just alone.

Speaker 8 I went through a crazy mental health crisis in college.

Speaker 8 And I was there studying psychology and criminal justice, just trying to understand the world and

Speaker 8 why people do the things that they do.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 yeah, just like crying out for help. I try to talk to friends about it.
And they're just like,

Speaker 8 yeah, well, you're adopted. Who cares? Like, whatever.

Speaker 8 They're your parents. And then a lot of people.

Speaker 7 Which must have been a lot really hard because you're like, listen, I'm trying to like, hello, and you're just like minimizing it. Like, that's these things.

Speaker 11 I'm struggling.

Speaker 8 And then the Catholic guilt for my family, for my adoptive family. I had an aunt reach out to me.
He's like, I can't believe you and your brother are doing this to your mom.

Speaker 8 You know, you could have had it way worse in life. And

Speaker 5 that we go again. Like, yeah, you need to be grateful.
Because remember, you were saved, you know.

Speaker 8 That's sick.

Speaker 8 That was the whole thing. And so for a year, I didn't talk to my mom.
I just couldn't. I talked to my dad.

Speaker 8 I still felt that obligation because I knew despite like his issues with like racism and stuff, he wasn't like the mastermind behind this.

Speaker 8 It was my mom, and she admitted to it, like, that pushed him into saying, let's not say anything.

Speaker 8 And then it just kind of kept going from there.

Speaker 7 So, wait, at a point, your dad kind of wanted to be honest?

Speaker 8 He said that if I ever asked or

Speaker 8 like, he would have told me. But the thing with my dad and like a lot of Italian men is just like his main job wasn't rearing the children it was providing so he was working 12 hour shifts like

Speaker 8 sunday through saturday like all the time and so i only really saw him monday evenings or on the weekends occasionally and then we do yard work together or like help with family stuff and so like he wasn't the one like teaching us like relationship things and just like basic things so that all was left to my mom and so she took charge and that's he just went with whatever she said so i had a little less anger in that department towards my dad because I was just like, I'm mad at you because you went along with it.

Speaker 8 But my mom, I feel like she should have known better. And she also had a little bit more education than my dad.

Speaker 8 My dad couldn't read or write well, um, because like he came to the States and like didn't speak English, and then he couldn't even finish high school.

Speaker 8 Um, but my mom, she's very intelligent, and so I knew she had a better grasp on things that

Speaker 8 it made it harder to forgive so fast. Okay.

Speaker 5 So, you did, so you took a year break separation.

Speaker 7 Yeah. In that year break, did you like, is that when you kind of just like, did you deep dive into all the things that you felt like you needed to?

Speaker 8 Or I tried. Yeah.
Back then,

Speaker 8 I was really digging into like Facebook groups because those are the only things that like forums about adoption. I'd be Googling, like, found out I was adopted.
Right, right.

Speaker 8 There weren't many resources.

Speaker 8 And I remember posting, I found an adopted from Columbia group on Facebook. And I posted, like, oh my God, like this just happened.
I just found I was adopted.

Speaker 8 And that was like a big reality check where I saw that even the adoptee community was completely split down the middle because half were like, how could this happen to you? Like, that's so ridiculous.

Speaker 8 I can't believe they did that to you. And the other half was, shut up.
You were given a better life.

Speaker 8 And it came from adoptees and I was getting messages after messages. So then I kind of let it go for a little bit because I was like, I can't deal with this.

Speaker 8 And I tried to lean into my Colombian roots. My husband is actually half Colombian.
So we joined the Latinos Unidos at college.

Speaker 8 And we would go to these meetups and there would be people all of a sudden that look like me. And they would come up to me and just say, hola, comesas.
And I'd be like, hi.

Speaker 8 I'm a listen. They're like, where are you from? I'm like, Colombia.
And they're like, oh, but where are your parents from? Like, that's a long story.

Speaker 8 And it just got really uncomfortable because there was this huge

Speaker 8 like gap between like my culture that I was raised in versus the culture that people expected me to know.

Speaker 7 And then did you feel kind of like almost rejected a little bit and not belonging in this group, but not that, you know what I mean?

Speaker 8 Yeah, it was too much of one, not enough of the other, at different opportunities. And I remember going to one of my cousins' weddings a few years after that, and it was like this huge Italian bash.

Speaker 8 There were grandparents and uncles and aunts from Italy everywhere. And then there was a song.
It's like, everybody who's Italian, stand up.

Speaker 8 and me i just look at my husband fiancé at the time and uh i'm like i'm not standing up

Speaker 8 this is my family but this isn't who i am anymore and i'm not going to pretend right for the comfort of those around me

Speaker 8 and

Speaker 7 still to this day i would say 90 of my family doesn't talk about it to me and has it still really about it and i'm very popular yeah right right right well almost a little bit not not a protest but i'm not i'm not gonna fall into this or keep the like facade, or you know, I'm not going to stand up and do this.

Speaker 7 Right. I think it was almost in a way of like, I'm going to make a stance a little bit by not standing, you know, in a way.

Speaker 5 Yeah. So obviously, you've mentioned that you've been back to Colombia, right?

Speaker 5 Have you met your birth parents at all?

Speaker 8 I met my birth mother. We went last November.

Speaker 11 Oh, recent. This is recent.

Speaker 6 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 8 So we went.

Speaker 8 She lives in a little town about four or five hours from Bogota, the major city in Zetaquira.

Speaker 8 And she has been married since for like, I don't know, 28-ish years now. And she has a few other children.
So I have two younger brothers and a younger sister and a nephew

Speaker 8 there. And we got to meet.

Speaker 13 We...

Speaker 8 We don't really know much. Me and my sisters that were adopted about our birth fathers, but we're not really interested because of the hardships our birth mother went through.

Speaker 8 And there was a lot of abuse in those situations.

Speaker 8 But I always wanted to know like if i had other siblings and um when i went to columbia i actually didn't expect to have as much of a reaction as i did to my birth mother and it was like a very surreal moment where all of a sudden we were coming up the street and she was outside crying and then i was just like i have to get out there and like we hugged and for me like especially as an autistic woman like i'm not big like hugging and touching

Speaker 8 even my adoptive mom, like occasionally.

Speaker 8 And so for that to feel natural, it was a very surreal moment that it felt like another puzzle piece clicked into place. And it was like, this is where I should have been.

Speaker 8 And like, this is where I was meant to be. But also, like.

Speaker 8 I have a huge part of me that isn't here. We had to leave my kids home

Speaker 8 with my adoptive mom during that time. So we could go for the week.
And

Speaker 8 I like, because people say, they're like, why don't you just move back there if you're not happy? And it's like, because I have family there and I have family here. And it's not that simple.

Speaker 8 Like, I wasn't raised in that culture. My Spanish isn't great.

Speaker 8 And, like, I'm not going to just pack my kids up from everything they've known to go on this other adventure in a country where, you know, we don't know what life would be like entirely.

Speaker 8 And so being back there, it was just

Speaker 8 very traumatic in a way.

Speaker 8 And I think the hardest part for me was leaving because we were saying goodbye to my birth mother and

Speaker 8 she

Speaker 8 was giving hugs and like talking to everybody and she just fainted.

Speaker 5 She fainted? She fainted.

Speaker 8 She was so overcome by emotion. She just completely fainted.
I barely caught her in time. And she's this tiny little woman, a little shorter than me.
And I was just like, oh, God, like she cares.

Speaker 8 She loves me. She doesn't want me to go.
And then I was just kind of putting myself in her shoes.

Speaker 8 I'm just like, oh, imagine never expecting to know your children to meeting them and now having to say goodbye again.

Speaker 6 Again. Yeah.

Speaker 8 And it's not just like I'm going down a few blocks. Right.
I have to take a plane. I'm not going to be back there for how many years.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 I was the only one of my sisters that was able to go for the trip

Speaker 8 too. So it was like having to reschedule because like the crisis, like COVID was going on around the time that we planned.
And so it was just like a lot of different factors that went into this. That

Speaker 8 just seeing her faint, I think that really just nailed

Speaker 8 the confident to me. It's just like

Speaker 8 adoption,

Speaker 8 there's loss. There is such loss there.
And it's for every single side of it. Yeah.

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Speaker 8 But there was also a moment of joy that I didn't expect to have. And I had called my mom, my adoptive mom-in-law, we were there because it was Thanksgiving back in the States.

Speaker 8 And we were talking to my kids. And then my mother and my birth mother are both there on like the little WhatsApp video call.
And my mom, my adoptive mom, goes,

Speaker 8 you are her mother.

Speaker 8 And my other mom, my birth mom, goes, You are the first mom. I'm the second mom.

Speaker 11 We're both her moms.

Speaker 8 And they just had this moment of connection where I would have never in a million years guessed that would happen that my mom, my adopted mom, would have such empathy and

Speaker 8 such a heart for my birth mother because it was always jealousy.

Speaker 12 Right.

Speaker 8 It was always like, oh no, she's going to leave me. She doesn't want me to be her mom anymore.
She's going to reject me.

Speaker 8 But I think finally seeing me there and then hearing from me all the time, she was like, she's not going anywhere.

Speaker 5 And that's the thing, too, about like adoptive parents.

Speaker 5 I feel like, you know, if you are a very safe and positive adoptive parent, even though your adoptive parents did some things that maybe weren't the best thing that they should have done and were wrong, but like they raised you, I feel, I feel you're always going to have a love for those people, you know, and you're always going to have a love for your birth parents because that's also your family.

Speaker 5 Like, I feel like if adoption could all just be like, there's just all these people around this child that love this child, that's how it needs to be. Like, open and honesty and love and care.

Speaker 5 And the more people that love this child, isn't that better? Like, that's how I want every adoption to be.

Speaker 9 Like, you know, I know.

Speaker 7 And that's how they honestly, in a way, that's how society sells it. Especially with this new, you know,

Speaker 7 trend of openness or whatever. They kind of sell this whole pitch or whatever.
So

Speaker 7 did your, so did your younger brother, has he had any contact with his

Speaker 8 no, and for like the longest time, I would say even to like last year, he didn't want to really do anything with adoption. A lot of adopted men, like they don't talk as much as

Speaker 8 women in this space.

Speaker 8 But since he's currently incarcerated right now, but he's due to finish his sentence in a few months and come home on a work release program, we've been emailing back and forth like a few times a week and doing phone calls.

Speaker 8 And we've just been kind of reflecting on our childhood.

Speaker 8 and he started opening up about the adoption he's like oh yeah I would want to to know more I would want to do like a DNA test and he actually uh I sent him my book in there I saw it he was reading it and we were talking about it and now we're we're working on a memoir between the two of us because

Speaker 8 between our stories I kind of had um well

Speaker 8 The trajectory of like, oh, she was adopted. She had a happily ever after.
She had a college education. She got married, had the 2.5 kids, whatever, has a beautiful house in the suburbs.

Speaker 8 And my brother, he struggled with drug addiction. He was in and out of jail, incarcerated and currently incarcerated.
And, you know, he is essentially what my parents feared Latino to be.

Speaker 8 He is one of those Latinos who ended up selling drugs and ended up being incarcerated and being in these tough spots that embarrass the family.

Speaker 8 And I think when push came to shove, that really showed where the rest of the adoptive family lied. And I think that's also a way that me and my mom got closer because she finally realized

Speaker 8 you guys are being treated differently.

Speaker 8 Everything I had feared, because part of it was like, we don't want the rest of the family to treat you like we treat other people and look down upon.

Speaker 8 And I had aunts who would say like, oh, you can't go out out with those people. Or like, what would you do if your daughter came home and like dated a black man or a Latino man? How would you react?

Speaker 5 I wouldn't care.

Speaker 8 Yeah. Yeah, that was an optional.

Speaker 5 But also, too, it's interesting because even if your adoptive parents knew and maybe were educated about the statistics of adoptees when they were adopting, they would have known that.

Speaker 5 you know, the possibility of any of you kids dealing with drug addiction or mental health stuff

Speaker 5 is actually very high.

Speaker 8 Yeah, and it happens of incarcerated individuals too.

Speaker 5 Like, yes, the foster care degeneration

Speaker 8 and then even like adoptees are crazy numbers in the incarceration.

Speaker 8 And so I think that's why me and him have really started to bond a lot more because we have completely taken off the sheet of secrecy of our story. And him and I are very like honest people.

Speaker 8 Like after growing up in a very like Catholic immigrant household, we were told, hush, hush, kids are supposed to be seen and not heard. And now to have like this place where we're not being

Speaker 8 butted heads against each other, like we're not being compared anymore because it was like, oh, he's the guy, like boys will be boys. They can get away with anything.

Speaker 8 And then for me, I was the eldest daughter of an immigrant family. So I had a lot of responsibilities.
I was responsible for how my brother acted if he got in trouble.

Speaker 8 I was responsible for like watching him and all these things. And like being taught over and over and over is good.
Like, we came to America. We got a better life.

Speaker 8 We did this for you, you know, we gave you everything.

Speaker 12 Our energy, a lot of pressure for kids,

Speaker 8 and it just took a while to kind of understand where my parents were coming from, why they had these ideas, and then also kind of figure out where that lies in like my upbringing and like being raised in America and like seeing other American families and being like, they're not like her.

Speaker 6 Yeah, that's the right thing. Right.

Speaker 8 But do you, you so, when you mentioned Catholic, like, so does that, do you think that played a big role in kind of like the function dynamics of the family a bit my my parents are like holiday Catholics okay, okay, okay, but we still did like CCD and like we were taught like no sex before marriage and all that stuff and like you know shame like the it was like anything wrong like oh God is watching you and like don't don't embarrass us because like you need to do good in front of God and we had like our confirmations and all those things.

Speaker 8 So it was just like always like church and God was used as a way to just shame us into listening and so that

Speaker 8 also like when i found out that i was adopted it was like that catholic guilt and i was like i'm not talking to my mom

Speaker 8 i'm ungrateful my mom did everything for me like she took care of me she took me to the hospital when i needed to like she she raised me she changed my diapers how could i do this to my family like you know your your parents come first like it's god then your parents yeah right right right

Speaker 7 but that's also part of like the fog which i think people don't really know know a lot about, but that's part of the guilt, which you feel like I have these internal feelings, but I feel guilty for even having these internal feelings, which means I can't even externally act on those feelings.

Speaker 7 And it's a whole like.

Speaker 5 When actually your feelings are completely valid, you feel no guilt with that.

Speaker 7 Yeah. I mean, it's just crazy how

Speaker 7 the more stories that I hear, I just see a lot of similarities with religious pressure and then like familial pressure.

Speaker 7 And then I just feel like the most unfair thing that I'm hearing is that adoptes are expected to hold so much,

Speaker 7 like the whole world together. And it's like, how are we, like, how are we all just pretending that this is okay?

Speaker 7 Like, we're, they're the children, they're literally the most affected, innocent, never asked to be there, but yet we're telling them to be the pillars to hold this whole crazy thing up.

Speaker 8 If you saw my family or heard them on the day that like my HuffPo article took off, and all of a sudden, thousands and thousands of people are sharing it, and they're seeing my face on TV, on Tamron Hall, and

Speaker 8 You would have thought that I set their most beloved pet on fire, like something

Speaker 8 god awful. And then, ring, ring, ring.
Oh, talking to my mom's like, Oh, how could she do this to you? She is so ungrateful.

Speaker 8 You are such a great mother, you loved her, and she, you know, she's a uh like shaming our family on public TV. Like, I can't believe she said these things.
We are not racist.

Speaker 8 And I'm like, Uh, dad had a Confederate flag in the garage.

Speaker 11 Oh my god. Like,

Speaker 8 Did you just black out like the years 0 to 18 and all the slurs they would say and all these things that were just normalized?

Speaker 8 And in school, you learn like, oh, golden rule, everybody treat everybody the same. And like, oh,

Speaker 8 like, we're all equal. And then coming home, my parents and just like my dad would say some out-of-pocket stuff.

Speaker 12 And I'd be like, you're not allowed to say that word.

Speaker 11 Right.

Speaker 8 And then again, we were told, be seen, not heard, like, shut up, be quiet. It's not your right to say that.

Speaker 8 And so, when I approached them, I was just like, well, you know, you guys really don't like black or brown people. We are Latino.
Yeah.

Speaker 8 And my parents looked me in the head and the eye and they go, no, you're not.

Speaker 8 You're Italian and Portuguese. And like, it went so far as like they hid scholarships that were like Hispanic heritage scholarships from school.

Speaker 8 So I couldn't do them. And like, I had trouble when I was going to school with my social security card because they didn't change one thing.

Speaker 8 Luckily, my citizenship was fine, but like they had never updated it. So like the school was always questioning, like, oh, are you an United States citizen?

Speaker 8 And I'd be like, why, why is that happening? And then when I found out I was adopted the year and the next year, I was like, oh, that's

Speaker 5 what.

Speaker 8 And so it's just like they had like completely changed the story in their head. And partially it's because like that narrative, that's pretty little butterfly narrative is what the media shows.

Speaker 8 And adoptive parents and foster parents, like they're always told that, you know, it's a beautiful thing and like there'll be some struggles, but don't worry about it. Love is enough.

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Speaker 8 And even like some agencies now are being like defensive of this like new wave of adoptees and foster youth and birth parents speaking out. And so they're trying to do like campaigns.

Speaker 8 And I see them in like

Speaker 13 campaigns to like

Speaker 8 campaigns to like

Speaker 8 re-establish how positive adoption is. So it's just like we're looking for adoptive families and adoptees that are happy and satisfied with their adoption to combat the negative narrative.

Speaker 7 I wonder if that's why we're receiving so much backlash because they're part of this, like they feel maybe, and I honestly feel like a lot of the adoptees that I'm hearing from, and I'm not, I refuse to label anybody, but I'm like, are you like, I want to talk to you in five years from now or maybe 10 years from now and see if you feel

Speaker 7 the same way because maybe they feel obligated to defend adoption because they're maybe their parents are talking about it.

Speaker 7 And I just feel like, like I said, even the even your family calling your mom and say, How dare you? How could you do this to you? Who is that centering?

Speaker 7 So it's like another instance where it's like, why are the adopted parents prioritized in the in the scope and the in the in the language?

Speaker 7 It's like, it's really like, I just, we're not centering the right people.

Speaker 8 Adoptees are the most important people. Once those papers are signed, that completely flips.
And

Speaker 8 they we just take a back seat and as soon as we're old enough to form our own opinions and they don't align we're completely just taken over and then we're the troubled adoptee we're the angry adoptee we're the ungrateful adoptee

Speaker 8 and we get pushed to the back and like usually like before social media we were able to kind of just hide there no matter how many times we like screamed for help or like tried to raise awareness about this.

Speaker 8 But now I think especially with TikTok and Instagram and all these different avenues we have now been able to connect our stories with other stories and

Speaker 8 people are realizing that oh like Natalia Grace that story was awful oh Micah Staffer oh terrible things are happening here there's more to this now

Speaker 8 and so it's It's progress, but it is slow. There's still a lot of anger.
I still get angry messages from people all the time.

Speaker 8 i get threats i get told to go back to my country and wow um you know like i'm grateful or i should just go you know sell drugs with pablo escobar like some

Speaker 8 cringy but do you do you feel that most of those is that coming from adoptees mostly or is it coming from like adoptive parents what do you where do you i would say a lot is like adoptive parents and family members okay um occasionally there'll be a few adoptees here but usually um my content is typically adoptee and foster youth centered so I'll get a lot of like messages like, oh, thank you for helping me talk about this.

Speaker 8 I got my parents your book and we're we're listening to your podcast now. So like we're connecting.

Speaker 8 I have, I had a really special moment where a Colombian adoptee's father reached out to me about a year ago and he would just send me email updates. He's like, we listened to this

Speaker 8 episode and we talked about this. And then this past year, his daughter actually went to Columbia and he saw he was like, I think she needs some more support.

Speaker 8 would you reach out to her and I was like you have to ask her first if she wants to talk to me but if she's open to it like sure send me a message I gave her my email and then we talked for a little bit and then he still sends me updates to this day he's like I'm still able to talk to my daughter because you gave me a different perspective what adoption is oh and so like you said like those moments are so special to me because

Speaker 8 No matter how openly I talk about the struggles of adoption, my goal isn't just to say, like, oh, nobody should adopt Adam. Right.

Speaker 8 My goal is to help us address the tough topics and get comfortable being uncomfortable. Because the more we talk about these things, the more we can give proper support to families as a whole.

Speaker 8 Because we can't just help adoptees, we have to help everybody in this community to make progress. And to do that, you know, we have these conversations.
We're going to talk about it.

Speaker 8 This is how we're making change.

Speaker 5 Or you write books.

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 5 You know, and like, what?

Speaker 8 So, what is your book called and what is it it about yeah so my books that are out right now are called what white parents should know about transracial adoption and the accompanying workbook there too um the first i my mom wrote the forward my adoptive mom just to kind of like introduce our story and it goes into the nuances of transracial and international adoption the history like the politics around it and then it really digs into like racial identity because with transracial adoption, people think just like, oh, you're with your family, you know, race doesn't matter.

Speaker 8 Love is enough.

Speaker 8 But helping people understand how your racial identity develops, how you perceive yourself as a woman of color or a man of color, growing up in a primarily white environment is different, and how those have struggles.

Speaker 8 And so it goes through that.

Speaker 8 And then the workbook has like a bunch of activities and different just discussion points that you could have with your spouse or partner to spark these difficult conversations before you adopt.

Speaker 8 I think,

Speaker 8 yeah.

Speaker 8 And then hopefully after. And I have two other that I'm working on right now.
I'm also digging into the adoption influencing world.

Speaker 8 And so, like, how powerful social media has been to spark these conversations and how it's really sparked new change and like laws for privacy records.

Speaker 8 Like, now there's more open adoption records in different states, and how adoption influencers can influence the perception of things, and how it can also be a dark place, and

Speaker 8 how different ways you can connect. And then,

Speaker 8 so my agent has that book right now, and then I'm working, keeping busy with my next one with my brother, which is a memoir from like a dual POV of his story and my story, and his kind of like how he got led down the bad track and became my parents' worst nightmare of what a Latino kid could be, and how I became the ideal

Speaker 8 example of what could be, and how both of us struggled, and how both of us are still struggling to this day. And just,

Speaker 8 it's just a lot of nuance there, more of our stories.

Speaker 5 Where can people find and get your first book?

Speaker 8 Yeah, you can get it from any bookstore. You can Google my name or the title of the book.
And I have everything on my website linked, adopteethoughts.com to my social media.

Speaker 8 You just search me at adoptee underscore thoughts and you'll find me.

Speaker 7 Great. And, you know, I have to say, you said your mom wrote the foreword in your book.
And I had like that, let's honor her.

Speaker 7 That is such a huge, from what you've said about the past and how she was at first. That's huge that she was involved that intimately with that book.

Speaker 8 I think people just hear my story and they assume that I hate my family. Right.

Speaker 8 But people don't understand that, like, yeah, they have faults, they hurt me, there were different things that were terrible. But she's my mom, and I love her.

Speaker 8 And the fact that she did this work, that she was willing to have all of these conversations with me,

Speaker 8 like that's what an adoptive parent needs to be able to do. And so I hope that she is a good example for future adoptive parents.
And like, we've done a few interviews together, her and I.

Speaker 8 And so I think that has inspired a few different adoptive parents to finally do the work, even though it's a little later than we would have thought.

Speaker 11 Right.

Speaker 7 Yeah, but it's still really important.

Speaker 7 And I feel like, because that was my next question was like, what would you know, what would you, what advice would you have to prospective adoptive parents on how to handle it the right way?

Speaker 7 And it sounds like your mom has done the work.

Speaker 7 And I think that's what it comes down to: is that they're going to just be willing to be vulnerable, willing to be, you know, humble enough to say, I did something wrong.

Speaker 7 I want to learn something new. And I think that's like the biggest thing.

Speaker 5 Like, she got over the anger and the hurt, probably. I'm sure she was hurt.

Speaker 6 And it was valid on her.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Yeah.
You know, but she got through that. And then she put in the work to learn.
And that's awesome.

Speaker 8 Yeah. And I think just having parents and foster parents being willing to say, like, I didn't know.
Yeah. I wasn't prepared.

Speaker 8 And just realizing that like oh the adoption agency left that part out right made sure to send me the bill but they totally forgot to tell me that i would need to know all this information to help support my child and i i think that also is helping uh families these days breach these conversations approach these conversations because they are now aware that like oh yes we had responsibility here but it wasn't just us right because adoption isn't in a vacuum it's it's not just the birth parents, adopted parents, the child.

Speaker 8 There's the adoption agencies, the social workers that are pushing people through home studies, even though they know they're not prepared, not educating people.

Speaker 6 Yeah,

Speaker 8 MEPA, the multi-ethnic placement act, and then people trying to take laws like the Indian Child Welfare Act.

Speaker 8 Like, there's so many different areas here that it's not just like this narrow scope, it's all interconnected. And that's why, you know, these conversations are far from done.

Speaker 8 They need to be more often.

Speaker 5 Well, I really look forward to

Speaker 5 hearing about your next ventures and your next books. And I think what you're doing, you know, for adoptees and the community alone is very powerful.
And I think it's awesome.

Speaker 5 And I just appreciate you being vulnerable and coming on here today and talking with us about everything.

Speaker 8 Because it's important.

Speaker 5 We have to talk about it.

Speaker 7 Like you said, be, you know, get used to, you know, being uncomfortable. Yeah.
Being comfortable, being uncomfortable. And that's, and that's like what we're doing here.

Speaker 7 So, we just so thankful for you. Thank you so much for coming here and sharing your story.

Speaker 8 Thank you, and I appreciate it.

Speaker 8 I think hearing from birth parents is very important, and like because of the platform you guys have, it's allowed other adoptees to be like, Hey, like, you're all making it.

Speaker 2 You want to share all the adaptations, yeah, the good, the bad, yeah, all of it, yeah, you know,

Speaker 5 but no, but really, thank you for joining us today and having this conversation. And I look forward to your new book:

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Speaker 1 The Rec the Mundo.

Speaker 4 Feel the free Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.

Speaker 4 Howdy, partner. Next time you get chicken at McDonald's, you won't have to choose between the creamy flavors of Ranch and the tangy kick of Buffalo any longer.

Speaker 4 This time, enjoy all the flavors you love all at once. Try new creamy and tangy Buffalo Ranch sauce.
I participate in McDonald's for a limited time.