Pregnancy, Birth & The Power of Informed Consent with Traci Weafer

Audival's romance collection has something to satisfy every side of you.

When it comes to what kind of romance you're into, you don't have to choose just one.

Fancy a dallions with a duke, or maybe a steamy billionaire.

You could find a book boyfriend in the city and another one tearing it up on the hockey field.

And if nothing on this earth satisfies, you can always find love in another realm.

Discover modern rom-coms from authors like Lily Chu and Allie Hazelwood, the latest romanticy series from Sarah J.

Maas and Rebecca Yaros, plus regency favorites like like Bridgerton and Outlander.

And of course, all the really steamy stuff.

Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash wondery.

That's audible.com/slash wondery.

Sucks!

The new musical has made Tony award-winning history on Broadway.

We demand to be home.

Winner, best score.

We demand to be seen.

Winner, best book.

We demand to be quality.

It's a theatrical masterpiece that's thrilling, inspiring, dazzlingly entertaining, and unquestionably the most emotionally stirring musical this season.

Suffs, playing the Orpheum Theater, October 22nd through November 9th.

Tickets at BroadwaySF.com.

Okay, hello.

Welcome back to another episode of Kate and Ty Break It Down.

We have a very special guest with us today, Tracy Doula.

You may know her on Instagram.

And we are just really excited to kind of talk everything, birth and pregnancy.

She's also an adoptee.

So we have a lot of ground.

A lot to talk about.

Yeah.

Thanks for coming on and joining us today.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I homeschooled my kids.

Tyler.

We're hitting all of a little note.

Okay.

We have lots of things we could talk about then.

No, but I actually did.

I saw saw your comment on my post and I was like, this is great because I think it, I think,

yeah, I think it got, I guess the

takeaway from it was people were very upset with me.

And, you know, I understand.

Yeah, you ruffled some feathers.

I was not meaning to.

I didn't know there was any feathers to ruffle, I guess.

Right.

But your comment was obviously, it was just, it was very nice and sweet, way, way nicer than a lot of the other ones.

I'm assuming you saw.

But so I wanted to just say I appreciated it.

And yeah, and I actually really enjoyed reading it and just, you know, I mean, my thing is I'm just trying to learn more about everything.

So, you know, so it's, I like to have these kind of conversations.

Yeah.

Well, I knew where you were coming from.

I did.

Okay, good.

I was like, oh,

he's opening a can of worms.

And I knew you didn't know that you were

headed.

Right.

And I think.

And I think people twisted it.

Like our perspective is like people that do homeschool, I give you a lot of credit because I'm telling you right now, it would be very hard for us to do that, like to be a teacher and a mom and a wife, like, you know, all the things that it takes to do all that.

And it was just like, we're not saying anything negative.

We're just saying like we as a family wouldn't be able to do it.

Right.

And there's a lot that goes along with that, you know, and

I think people struggle with parenting choices anyway.

And it's like, oh,

you know, when it's not understood, you know, it's not, you know, when you make a comment about, you know, homeschooling, birthing, we're getting ready to talk about those choices also.

You know, I think that people are like, oh, well, you know, I did that.

I knew you didn't know the bigger picture.

And so I think people get into confession mode with, oh, well, this is why I did what I did.

And it's, you know, the bigger conversation is hard to have when somebody makes a choice and they don't really understand why they made that choice.

And so when you're trying to open that conversation of, well, why are you doing what you're doing?

Let's talk about the bias in even the system of homeschooling in general or sending your kid because there's an agenda there too in any system.

Same with the maternity care system.

And that's what we're probably getting ready to talk about for Duluthum.

But I did.

I knew where you were coming from.

Okay, that makes me feel a lot better because I was just really shocked.

I was like, I am shocked on,

I guess I'm not shocked on the the reactions because that's why we talk publicly about stuff.

I was more shocked on the visceral that was behind all the reactions.

I was like, whoa, whoa, almost as if

I was, you know, saying something.

I feel like they were putting a lot of words in my mouth.

I was like, no, I never said anything about homeschool.

I just was very curious on how to, you know, obviously minimize that.

But I feel like

on the subject of homeschooling, like I said, even in that episode, I was like, I'm nothing against it.

Like, you know, I couldn't do it.

I was just genuinely asking a question.

Still Still not against it, obviously.

Right.

Yeah.

But yeah, I, I, uh, it was, it's a very interesting

topic, especially with everything going on in our world today.

And I had a lot of people actually write me back and say it had nothing to do with academics and everything to do with safety.

Yeah.

And I thought, and I was like, oh, completely, 100%.

Understand that.

I understand that completely.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I mean, I really appreciate you chiming in there with your

and, you know, pre-pandemic is way different than after pandemic, you know, because everything shut down and people had to homeschool their kids and nobody was expecting those things either.

And when you're not prepared to do those things, then it kind of hit everybody in the face too.

I would have been a crazy teacher during that time.

Crazy nuts.

Psycho.

So you are a doula and you're also an adoptee.

I am.

Do you want to share anything about your adoption story

and lead us into, you know, or whatever you're comfortable with.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know a lot of it.

Honestly, I just sent away paperwork for my birth records and

I'm trying to get information about

different counties because apparently where I thought that I was born might not be the place that I was born.

So I'm in the process of that.

The relinquishment,

the information that I do have is

my birth mom, I was the last of six

and

she had relinquished two of the oldest and then had three in the middle, and then I was the last.

She relinquished the children when she was not married,

tried to have a family in the middle, and then ended up divorced and then relinquished me.

The really the interesting part of my story that I can't share a whole lot of,

and the reason why I started searching for information

was because I was being told these things, but

I didn't have solid proof that these things

had happened.

But I had a private investigator find me when I was 21 when the closed adoption records opened, and I had two siblings.

Those two relinquished sisters, we have the same mom, but not the same dad.

They found me.

So that private investigator, non-profit that puts adoptees together and finds

you know, families and reunites them, he's the one that told me a lot of the information.

So he got it.

So I'm trying to get it.

I'm trying to get it firsthand.

And,

you know, it's a the information that I have is that my birth mom was killed and I was relinquished already, but she

was

unalived.

And

it's, you know, kind of a bigger story where that's happened.

And

so that's really all I know.

And I don't really know much about my birth dad.

So I kind of put it aside for a while because it did not

make me who I was.

I really,

and I didn't fight it.

Fight's not the word.

It was kind of like a little battle of identity.

And when you talk to a lot of adoptees, you'll probably hear that.

You know, like, who am I?

Where did I come from?

What, you know,

you know, who are my people?

Like, where is my village?

And

I felt some of that, but then I did have a very loving birth family that I wanted to respect their feelings.

And that,

as an older adult, I mean, I'm 51.

Nope, I just turned 52.

Okay.

It's okay.

I forget, and I'm only 33, so it's all right.

Oh, my brain today.

I'm just going to blame menopause.

So we'll.

You know, I didn't want to ask a lot of questions.

And me and Tyler had talked about this on my podcast.

I didn't want to

make them feel less than parents.

And because I did respect where they were coming from.

I didn't really want to ask a whole lot of questions.

And do you feel like that just came from a sense of you wanting to protect them or not like

hurt them in a sense?

No.

No, yeah, kind of.

It was more like maybe the generation thing too, because my mom was a lost generation.

She was born in 1935.

So you didn't talk about adoption.

It was very secretive.

It was very, we're just going to tiptoe around this conversation because her identity was in question.

She couldn't have children.

So therefore, that's why they adopted.

And I didn't want to

take...

like her identity away either or make her feel worse than probably what she already had felt in that time frame.

Because in that time frame of the 60s 60s and 70s, if you couldn't have children,

you were just kind of really looked down on.

And so I, you know, I just kind of left it alone.

And we just didn't talk about it much.

Not that we, not that she was like, don't tell people that you weren't adopted, you know, keep it that secret, but I just didn't feel the openness to talk about it.

So it was more of like a like the time of the culture at that moment, was it really?

Yeah.

Yeah, it was very, very like hush-hush back then, like back door.

You know, we don't talk about it.

One thing that that always kind of is interesting to me is that, you know, the more adoptees that we talk to, it's so common.

It's so common that all of them say, either I treaded my origin story by protecting my adoptive parents, or I treaded that origin story by protecting my birth parents.

It's always in the matter of like emotionally monitoring everyone else around them and the adults who made the decision.

You know what I mean?

So that always really is interesting to me that they all mostly share that, that, that common thinking, which is like, does that have anything to do with their attachment style?

And it makes me go down a huge deep rabbit hole.

But

100% the tiptoeing around the abandonment

for sure issues.

And you don't realize really what that is until, I mean, I really didn't understand my abandonment issues until I was having kids and I was more of an adult.

My brain was fully formed.

I mean, y'all know.

And I was looking back thinking, why did I feel

the ways that I felt?

And,

you know,

I loved my mom, but I did see a very big difference in my relationship with my mom than my friends had with their moms.

Like

my love for my mom was more, I need you to hold me.

I need you to be by me.

I need you to be with me.

I need you to, you know,

you know, rock me to sleep.

The

physical things.

Not necessarily, you know, when I was away from her, did I feel this kind of like nurturing, do I, you know, I miss you?

Not necessarily.

And I, and I never want to hurt my mom.

She's been gone since the pandemic.

Took care of her for five years.

She had dementia.

And, but it was a, I, I realized, like, even taking care of her in her end times, that it was a very different different relationship that I had with her.

And it was special, but it was very different.

It was not

what I think other people have with their biological children.

Which you would say, would you determine that as in being like a more of like you said, like holding and physical, was that more of a physical, like you felt the that.

So that's really interesting because you also had siblings that you were raised with.

Did they adopt other children?

Well, she, uh, my sister is also adopted.

Yeah.

Okay.

So, did have you and your sister ever talked about that?

Like, do you guys share that commonality?

Yeah, my, I attach very easily to people.

Well, and that's been an interesting dynamic throughout my life also.

I did not find healthy ways to attach until, you know, later until my kids were coming up too, just in adulthood.

And so I attach very easily.

My sister doesn't attach.

at all and has a hard time attaching.

So, um, and then she's adopted two children also.

And so

we actually kind of researched and was doing a lot of the attachment education when her son was having some behavioral issues.

And we were trying to, you know, understand what those were.

And I said, I'm looking at adoption more than just.

mental illness or right absolutely

and that's when we really started looking at wow

how you think is you know how how you're raised or biologically what's what's happening you know and so as a doula what what ended up I mean I've always been mesmerized by birth I can explain it I have a very big pull towards pregnancy and you know

and birth.

It's just all a miracle to me.

But then I also have a fascination of

how how did that work for me?

Like what was happening?

And what was my mom going through?

And what was the pregnancy like?

And, you know, so, and not having that with my adopted mom made me more interested in birth itself and not to pull my, pull me away from my adopted mom, but it was just just super intriguing to me.

And even before I had children, even in high school, and I just, and I loved babies.

And that's all I wanted to do was be a mom and

kids.

So when

I didn't know it was a thing, I had no idea that this was even a profession that was starting in those times.

But between my first and my second,

which are 15 months apart,

I didn't have a lot of education between those two.

And when I was pregnant with Christopher at 18

and not no internet, no Google.

Right.

None of the things we have now.

Get to read books.

I'm a little bit bitter about it.

You know, but

thinking, okay, if

I'm on, you know, if I'm having these prenatal appointments or if I'm going to these resource centers because I was on Medicaid, you know,

shouldn't I be getting some kind of really good information?

And I wasn't.

And when I started educating myself more, knowing what I didn't want, what happened with my first and educating for my second, I'm like, well, if I'm not getting this information, other people aren't too.

So I just started really educating myself.

Then when I was pregnant with my third, I ran into a friend that was a high school friend, and we just got to talking.

And she said, hey, this is what I'm doing.

I'm going to,

you know, start helping people through labor.

And I'm like, oh,

I want to do that.

I want to do that.

But I couldn't because my kids were so little.

And it didn't make sense to me to leave my family to go to somebody else's.

So I started postpartum doula work because I could plan it and, you know, those kind of things.

So what is that?

I've never heard of postpartum doula work.

What is that exactly?

Yeah, a postpartum doula helps with the transitional process into parenthood,

making sure that mom's taken care of, partners are taken care of, what does the dynamics look like?

There's overnight care, if that's what needs to happen, which why wasn't that a thing when I was having mine?

Right, same.

How come I didn't know about this?

Hallelujah.

I could be like an angel coming into the house where I'm going to sleep.

Just

a child.

You know, but the educational parts of that is understanding the body, understanding, you know, the after parts of birth, educating mom on what to expect,

monitoring for mood, you know, mood changes, mood disorders.

Are these normal?

Are these not normal?

Because usually moms don't know it first.

They know that, they know that they don't feel good, but really moms, postpartum depression, anxiety, maybe even psychosis, moms don't realize those things.

So education on the partner's part, those kind of things.

And different postpartum doulas do different things.

I would go in and I would make sure that at least one meal was cooked before I left.

I did four-hour periods.

it during the day.

I did, you know, laundry.

We talked over, you know, the birth.

We debriefed the birth.

I made sure people were psychologically whole and being able to process out their births.

If it was an eventful birth, there might be more processing and resources out for, you know, therapy, those kind of things.

My goal was to make sure that,

you know, the family was transitioning well is really what it is.

And that's amazing because I feel like what you're talking about as far as like the education and just like all the little things that you do postpartum.

Like when you just, just, I don't know, you know, like I've had four births and I, it's always been at a hospital with just a doctor, everything.

Like, they literally just send you home with this new thing and you're just supposed to figure it out.

Like, nobody really does tell, like, you know, you go in in your six weeks and you fill out a questionnaire, and the questionnaire is supposed to tell you if you're, you know, depressed or not, or you know, whatever.

But I feel like that should just be like a normal thing, like, as far as being educated afterwards and knowing how your body is.

It takes months to heal, not just days, you know, sometimes sometimes even longer.

Same with the brain and postpartum and stuff.

And yeah, because you're not given anything like that.

And like to go back to what you said about the whole postpartum thing, like I definitely think I had postpartum after placing, like after placing Carly that I didn't know about.

And I for sure know for a fact that after Nova.

I did have postpartum and I didn't even know I had postpartum until I was out of the postpartum.

And then I could look back and be like, oh, wow, I really was going through something and I didn't didn't even know that I was going through it.

Well, yeah, and I also feel like when you're talking about, like, oh, going to the house, and like, it could mean, you know, postpartum doula work could look different for each person who does that.

But what it comes down to is it reminds me of like when we were, when you know, us being hunter-gatherer back in the day, it was like, you, it really took a village.

When we say it took a village, it really did.

I don't think women were meant to do this by themselves.

It just doesn't make any sense to why they would,

you know, be designed to do it on their own.

And it reminds me of just like, you know, support goes a long way.

Simple, I mean, you making that meal before leaving, doing that one load along, that literally could have been the saving grace before a breaking point for that mom.

And I think that's really interesting how, like, we almost like kind of like, I don't know where in society we kind of separated like birth to be this only medical thing.

And I, and I, and it blows my mind because the more I learn about like at-home births and different

You know birthing centers that have nothing to do with hospitals and how different it looks and how different practices over the world that people do when it comes to birth it just it reminds me that like this is supposed to be a community-based thing with help and support for for women who are well yeah don't know what they're doing

to go back on like the like the birthing like centers and stuff like we found one when i was pregnant with one of our kids but they're like few and far between and i'm like i wouldn't wouldn't even make it there.

She'd be born in the car.

You know, like there's no way.

Like we'd have to stay out there.

And also too, like you were talking about, like, you know, we're doing it, like having the midwife sandoulas and like all the things.

And I was too afraid.

We talked about doing home births and stuff like that.

And I was too afraid.

I honestly was.

But I feel like that comes down to we're almost so programmed that it's a medical necessary to be in a hospital setting with, you know what I mean, with doctors and all the kind of stuff.

And it's like, well, you know, women have been doing this for since the beginning of time, or else none of us would be here.

So before we had hospitals, before we had all these things, and I'm not saying, oh, you know, don't, you know, give birth at hospitals.

I'm saying, like, where I tell Kate all the time that I really believe that as, you know, a medical thing, if we're going to look at it that way, you wouldn't go, you would go to a specific bone doctor who has a different practice.

You would go to a different, you know, so why, why are we dealing with birth in a hospital wing when, like, I feel like, in my opinion, it'd be great if we just had specific centers designed only for that and nothing else.

And so I thought that was interesting.

And I wanted to get your perspective on, I think people confuse doula and midwifes a lot.

So can you tell people what the difference is?

For sure.

And I want to say, too, that I am a doula that has four kids.

I think four is a wonderful number.

But I had all my babies in the hospital.

And, you know, I did have a midwife with all of them.

The first two were appointed to me because I was on Medicaid and in a town where back then

everybody that was on Medicaid saw midwives.

And that to me was the introduction to midwifery care, which that was a huge benefit.

But a doula is emotional support, physical support, educational support, and advocacy.

And I put the advocacy in on there because that has been huge.

That's like totally my platform is, you know, advocating for families to get what they need, what they deserve, what they don't know, because you don't know what you don't know.

We know and do,

or the birth experts, but your midwives and your OBs are your medical care providers.

They, you know, there's some midwives, and of course you have different types of midwives.

You have your home birth midwives or community midwives.

Then you have your certified nurse midwives that primarily deliver in the hospital.

Some can, depending on the state, deliver outside of the hospital.

And then you have your OBs that are in the hospital.

I think there's maybe one or two that deliver at home, but their states support that.

But that's rare.

That's going to be few and far between.

So depending on, you know, say if somebody says, hey, I hear about this dual award and really, you know, quite honestly, when Kamala Harris a few years ago put our names out there, I'm like, are we ready for this?

Because

there is a lot of nuanced topics that surround douladom,

what I consider douladom.

And when somebody says, oh, you know, doulas are only for home births.

Well, no, doulas are for everyone.

Doulas are not only for unmedicated births.

Doulas are for medicated births.

They're for the challenges that come along with birth and how to navigate that.

So, you know, if a doula gets into, you know, her work and finds that she only wants to, or he, there are male doulas out there also that are fabulous, but if they only want to provide emotional and physical support, that's great.

That's how they advertise themselves.

Look, you know, what is your need?

And I will provide that for you.

But if somebody needs an educator and they need, you know, more of the education side or help facilitating through education, you know, say you go to your doctor or your midwife and you're not really sure that you understand the information that they're giving you.

You can help them navigate what that means, give them more resources without bias and judgment, by the way.

And, you know, so that's what doulas do.

And, you know, the

I feel like politically we've been propelled into this arena where doulas are

able to

be in states or where we're trying to

get,

I don't want to say standardization is not a word that I love because we are not licensed,

we're not regulated.

But, you know, for insurance purposes, it's coming to the place where doulas are able to accept Medicaid and some insurances.

So that's a benefit, but it also comes with

cost, I feel like,

because it's not independent anymore.

And that's like you just said, and like you just said before, like you can cut, you come into it with no bias, no, but you know, you don't, you're not working for the hospital, you're not working for the doctors, you're strictly just like information and help.

Which, yeah, it's interesting that you say that because when you talked about that, because I remember with Kate's OB, it was like she made you sign a form saying

you will not work with a dueler or a midwife.

No, no, no, I was allowed to work with a doula.

Oh, I'm sorry.

She made me sign a form that stated that I could not, if I decided to work with a midwife, she would not work with a dwindler.

Oh, a midwife.

Okay.

Yeah.

Kate and Ty Break It Down is sponsored by BetterHelp.

If you didn't know, October 10th is World Mental Health Day.

And this year, we're saying thank you, therapists.

BetterHelp therapists have helped over 5 million people worldwide on their mental health journeys.

That's millions of stories.

This World Mental Health Day, BetterHelp is honoring those connections and the therapists who make them possible while showing how easy it is to get guidance from a licensed therapist online with BetterHelp.

I know for me, when I was struggling with depression really bad years ago, therapy honestly saved my life.

And it was that therapist, the therapist that I had a connection with, that truly gave me the tools and the advice to kick depression in its butt.

And honestly, it's the right therapist that can literally change everything.

And BetterHelp has 12-plus years' experience in matching people to the right therapist.

BetterHelp therapists work according to the strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the U.S.

With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people people globally, and it works.

With the average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews, this World Mental Health Day, we're celebrating the therapists who've helped millions of people take the step forward.

And if you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start that journey.

Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/slash breakitown.

That's better H-E-L-P dot com/slash breakitown.

How do you feel about that, Kate?

Um, looking back on it now, I'm like, why?

You know, why does that matter?

Like, what's the reasoning?

And I don't know if you know some of these reasonings, ORY, or not, but I don't know.

But also, I think, I think in the moment, I didn't question it because I loved her as a doctor and she was very good at her job.

But I remember when I came home and I'm like, yeah, she made me sign a form that was like, if I work with a midwife, she will not work with me as a patient.

And I remember being like, well, dang, like, okay.

I mean, she knows what.

And my doctor was very like, I mean, if you did something wrong, she's going to to let you know and she's going to drill it into you.

Like, she was very just like, how would you describe her?

I don't want to use her, but she was very,

very passionately stern.

When she needed to be.

Yeah.

But yeah, I remember.

Yeah.

So she made me signing that.

And I was like, huh, I wonder why.

Yeah.

There, there is a

hierarchy of practice that

I have seen.

You know, you have your OBs that do feel very strongly about being over or having more education or more

experience with childbirth than, say, a midwife and, you know, definitely a doula.

We are not medical.

So, you know, for, but,

or, and

if a doctor is going to go so far to have their patients sign something,

that tells me that there's some kind of

either miscommunication or there's some kind of

maybe insecurity.

First of all, why would you go see another provider?

Why would you get what I call piggyback care?

Did that doctor think that you were going to have a home birth and go to

maybe a home birth midwife?

And she was saying, well, I can't see you if

you're seeing somebody else.

That makes more sense to me.

But, you know, and that's out there.

And this brings me to the perfect point.

You're like, I'm just not really sure why this is happening.

Education needs to always be a thing.

And this is what I see the most inside the system:

there's no explanation.

There is maybe a little bit of biased education.

Like locally here, we have a practice that

absolutely says if you are planning a home birth, we will relinquish you from care.

We cannot see you.

And if you transfer in, we will not see you.

So, but they are not explaining it like that.

They're saying this form said you are signing this form stating that you will not have a home birth.

And I'm like, that's not what that form says.

It's not what it really means.

Yeah.

means.

So I'm thankful that you loved your OB enough that you were like, okay, I'm good with this because I'm using you anyway.

I'm not really sure what this personal thing is with midwives.

And maybe she didn't explain it well.

You know, but parents need to know the bigger picture.

And that's where my, that's where my passion has driven me is giving parents all of the information so that you can make an informed decision.

I'm not telling you either way what you need to do.

When somebody comes to me and says, hey, Tracy, I'm thinking about this type of birth.

We get to the heart of it.

You know, why do you want a home birth?

And please don't tell me it's because you had a traumatic hospital birth.

That's not a good reason.

And if you're saying, hey, I am really afraid, you know, I don't really want to be at home.

I'm thinking I need to go to the hospital.

Well, let's talk about what that looks like, you know, because not everybody knows their options.

And going back to what you said, Tyler, where did all this happen?

People have been having babies since the dawn of time.

Right, right.

In the history of childbirth,

you know, people were having babies at home and, you know, the

system changed to obstetrics.

Obstetrics didn't even exist, you know, for a while.

And then it became

obstetrics when they were having to do procedures like showing up episodomies and doing cesareans and those kind of things.

So they had to create that surgeon.

And that's what OBs are.

OBs are medically trained emergency medicine surgeons.

So if you are somebody that is a low-risk person and you are going to a high risk OB, you're going to get high risk care.

Do you,

yeah, when you say emergency, I think that's a pretty big word.

I mean, that's like, you know, they're designed for emergency situations.

I think that's, yeah.

So I think that's when, I think, like you said, that's people.

I don't think people really understand that that's, it's a lot different than just a, you know, normal practicing low risk, you know.

I never do that.

Yeah.

I mean, so that's kind of why I feel like it was so important for people to understand, like, where it all came from.

Because, like I said, like when they

made this

system based off of the need to do surgeries, is what it sounds like.

Yeah, but or did they, or did they create the system because, you know, I mean, childbirth is one of the things that kill lots of women, and there can be severe complications.

Like, so is it like through history that we just saw women dying from certain things?

And so, we thought as a society, we need to have something bigger because history, history definitely affects it.

I mean, we all know the reason why women started laying down to give birth, which is just crazy in itself based off of gravity and biology because of some weird, weirdo king that wanted to watch it.

Right.

I mean, we know, but yet we're still laying down.

Right.

It's really strange.

Well, and that goes to the bias and the experience and the does this doctor that knows all these things for high-risk patients need to be in a place that is a low-risk, just, hey, you're going to sit down and you're going to catch a baby.

I mean, the U.S.

is the, you know, Canada has the majority of

OB

care also.

Our midwifery rate is down here.

OBs are up here with both U.S.

and Canada.

But other countries like the UK and Sweden and Norway and all those people, I get people in my comment sections on TikTok going,

what are y'all doing?

Like, why are y'all going to OBs?

Like, why are OBs?

Are Are you okay?

Because OBs only come in to a situation in those countries when something is high risk or needs attention in that medical part of birth.

So if you, we are in a society that the majority of the medical system believes that birth has got to be managed.

That's where the fear comes in.

We have been conditioned to fear birth.

And I definitely am.

And I had, you know, and I had four of them.

And I mean, it would have been great to have a doula with my last unmedicated and only unmedicated birth because I'll never forget she made me keep using this stupid peanut thing and it hurts so much more.

And I'm just like such a people pleaser.

But there was a moment in time where I was like, I'm doing it one last time and I'm never touching the thing again.

Like, don't give it to me ever again.

But I also think that comes down to like, you know, we, I think there's a, there's a balance that we could come in the middle ground where it's like, okay, high risk, you go here, and then lower risk or, you know, quote unquote, average normal pregnancy.

Like, you know, listening, let the woman listen to her body.

I mean, Kate, I'll never forget seeing her in that chair with that peanut.

And she looked at me in the eye.

She didn't have to say nothing.

I just saw in her face.

I'm like, yeah.

She don't like it.

She don't like it.

And

like the nurse is so focused on it happening.

And I'm keeping her out.

And I'm like, I'm like, she's doing fine.

She's moving along.

And I don't know anything about anything, but in my head, this is what I'm thinking as I'm listening to her.

And the nurse was so adamant on using this thing.

And I'm like, listen, this, my wife knows.

This is her fourth birth.

She's let her do her thing, pretty much.

And I think it comes down to like, okay, well, such high-risk situations require you to be kind of humble and listen to the professional.

But in a normal, well, you were not high-risk.

So it was like, I don't know.

There's just, that's why, like I said earlier, like, I believe, like, I wish we could just like switch the system a little bit and separate birth and pregnancy as separate from a medical thing.

It should be

the fear, like you were talking, like, I wonder why, and I don't know the answer, but I wonder why is the culture, why are we afraid to have home births and stuff?

Because for me, like, yeah, there was definitely fear.

I'm like, if something happens, if all of you know, how do they test her breathing at home?

I don't know, you know, maybe with their heart rate and stuff like that.

Like, I, how do they do all those things?

Like, I don't, you know, so yeah, it's, and I wonder, yeah, maybe it's just an education, you know, not being educated.

Well, it goes to can, you know, the conditioning comes from fear because we have to keep people, you know, fearful to keep the money so hospitals are money makers right so the majority of hospitals make their money on birth so what has to happen is you know we have to keep these people thinking that they need us for us to have a job and that's why you don't see a lot of birthing centers and now I'm not in a state that has a you know a ton we have two that that you know that are very new because the law wanted to make that even restrictive our midwife law has not even been a thing very, you know, that is very new also,

which is very interesting to me.

It took us 14 years to pass that law.

Why?

Because the medical system wanted all birth.

So we have to think about it as, you know, yeah, why are these things happening?

Why are we keeping people in a place

and we don't want them to know things?

I think the majority of the battling that I do on really on social media and education is when I present something, because I'm not presenting it as medical advice.

I don't care what you do.

I'm unbiased.

I'm non-judgmental.

I'm just like, here, consider it.

What would you like to do?

Playing the would you rather game?

And then I get so many people like, you're just a doula.

You need to stop.

You can't say these things.

You need to quit educating.

You need to, you know,

well, that's dumb.

But let's just listen to your doctor.

Just listen to your doctor is one of the things that drives me crazy because they are practicing medicine, they should be practicing evidence-based care, which is the evidence that's current, okay,

and the yes, the expertise of your doctor, you've chosen them, you need to listen to them, but also your belief system and your critical thinking.

And you need the opportunity to say yes or no.

And that's where I'm at in Dooladom and in my platform, and why keeping your power exists.

Because I'm seeing doctors, and not all of them are bad, but the communication part, they're not getting in school, I don't think.

Because it's like, this is what I see.

This is what we're going to do.

And you don't feel like you have any choice.

You always have a choice.

You have agency and autonomy.

And evidence-based ethical practices in all medical care should look like a conversation, what's happening with facts.

Here's the evidence behind it.

How do you feel about it?

And you know what?

That's probably going to get me in trouble here is you can disagree with your doctor.

Yeah.

Right.

Absolutely.

Well, I think that comes down to the whole point of even her having her old OBGYN and have her sign that thing is that in my opinion, when I first heard about her having to sign it, I'm like, well, what a way to take away agency right away.

And almost like kind of subconsciously put that little seed there.

Like, hey, like, if you sign this, you're pretty much, you know, relinquishing your agency to me.

And you got to listen to me.

And

I think, unfortunately, too, it kind of instilled

the belief that cultural that we have culturally, too, of like, oh, midwives aren't as educated, or they're not as

good as a doctor, per se.

And then he was telling me that a lot of midwives have to do even extra years of school than like OB does.

And I was like, wow, really?

Like, what?

I think people get it confused, or it's like, no, a midwife,

they go through a lot, a lot of schooling.

And I also think extra harsh criticism.

Like, they, they, you know, I feel like that space gets a lot of criticism and it's unwarranted because you don't, they have to go to school, people.

You know?

Yeah.

There's our, there are some really great,

I would say since the pandemic, there, there are some OB practices that are, you know, incorporating midwifery care.

But we also have to be careful with marketing because now we are switching back to more people wanting to use midwives because they are thinking, yeah, I'm low risk or I have more of a low intervention belief system.

I only want these things in the medical side of birth if I need them.

I don't want them just as a standard of practice.

Standard of practice is different than individualized care.

So really midwifery care is the individualized care, but we have to be careful with, oh, why are they incorporating midwives?

Do they really believe midwives are you know a good thing to have in the practice or are they just making the money

and I bet you and so for like you being a doula too like I'm sure you've probably worked with midwives and you've probably worked with just normal OBs too what is yeah what does that have you I mean being a doula you've probably had to see some crazy things um wild yeah so I wonder I don't know because of HIPAA and everything too like I don't know what you can share or if there's some things that you've seen that you were that just like floored you, or what?

Oh,

um,

yeah,

I bet, I bet, yes, yes, and I believe that all doulas um need uh, well, all birth workers, all birth because birth is boss.

That's my that's just it's I respect it.

I respect birth, I respect labor, it can do the weirdest things, but it's so beautiful, and but it is boss, and you have to listen.

And I think the

interesting parts of my career is

knowing that I can't control it.

My clients can't control it, but we are all riding these waves together.

And therapy is really good for birth workers.

I mean, it just has to happen because there is,

you know, what we call secondary trauma that you're going to see stuff that's not being done to you.

You can't control it.

And it's horrible.

It can be horrible.

You know, as far as advocating and the things that I want to change in the system

are things like

things done that are unconsented, like,

you know, unconsented membrane sweeps, which is, you know, comes with a cervical exam.

And then, you know, the,

you have to be open a little bit.

And they insert fingers and then they separate the amniotic sac from the from the cervix.

That should be.

So you're

you're telling me there is doctors out there that do that without asking or being given permission?

Yes.

Wow.

I'm floored.

That is insane.

Because I've had it done.

But I asked for it because I was like, she needs to come.

Yeah.

But

it is super painful, first of all.

And then it and then it threw me into 72 hours of pre-labor, which was not fun.

But I asked for it.

So I couldn't imagine like you're, so there's doctors out there that are doing it just to do without.

That is disgusting for one.

And that's horrible.

What a violation.

Yes.

Really?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And what I'm seeing, and this has been years, and I talk about this stuff over and over and over.

And that's the other weary part about education and just thinking that things are going to get better.

And then it's like, nope, I'll do an educational video.

And they're like, oh, I had that done.

And I didn't know it until after.

There was no discussion around it.

Because what I'm seeing, and the same thing with like unconsented episiotomies, and that's the cutting of the perineum, and the theory is to make more room.

Now, that's actually not a standard of practice, and it shouldn't be anymore.

But there's still obese that are doing it and doing it without consent.

And then are they doing it without consent and it not being necessary at the same time?

Yeah.

Well, what is the point?

Well, I heard that there's, but the general consensus around it is that it's not, it's never really necessary usually to do the episiotomy.

Like, there's, you know, the body is designed very well to

do.

Is that what you find?

I mean, like, that's what the standard, you know, that's why the standard is not episiotomy anymore.

But the reason why I even started advocating as a doula, as hard as I am, and I train doulas to advocate, advocating meaning having really good conversations or saying, you know, facilitating conversations and saying, you know, can you give us more information on that?

My client needs to hear more education to feel comfortable about what you're doing, advocating that way.

And I do trainings on that now.

And it was because of

a situation that happened

at a birth that I was at.

And the doctor, you know, he started picking up scissors.

And I was like, oh, yo, doc, she doesn't want an episiotomy.

It's on her birth plan.

And he, you know, he said, oh, well, she's going to tear here.

And all I wanted him to do was to consent her.

That's all I wanted.

That's all I wanted.

And I, you know, looking now with the experience that I I have, I would have said that.

Hey, just ask her.

Because she would have said,

she would have said yes.

But you're saying give them the agency to make the dignity to make that decision based on her body.

Yeah, telling the person that, hey, this is why we need to use the scissors at this moment.

That's what you're saying.

And giving her the education of saying, why I'm wanting to do this because, or I'm thinking to do this, because you're going to tear X, Y, and Z.

And if I just do this.

So it's just like explaining.

Yeah.

Or as simple as the doctor respecting the birth plan, knowing that this is on there.

So, hey, I know on your birth plan, it said no episionomy.

but

yeah, yeah, and he was very respectful.

Like, you know, we talk about doula advocacy sometimes as this

high-tension, oh no, the doula is not going to do the right things, which, you know, I'm pretty sure that that's out there.

We, we, in doula dum, we, in birth world, we talk a lot about that.

But I, I instinctively stopped his arm because I wanted to stop what he was doing because it's very quick.

And in a lot of our trainings, we're doulas are like they're doing stuff and and they're hiding things you know breaking water with amniotic hooks and we're not seeing it um we're not able to stop certain situations it's it's the unconsented things that they know that they're doing that should have a conversation i'm not talking about baby's not doing well let's get the baby out you know i'm not talking about you know these level what i call level three situations that hey danger is involved and we need to do these things.

That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the shadiness that happens and that is going on and that shouldn't be going on.

Because

as a doula, I'm having to educate parents on self-advocacy and why is the obstetric abuse

or the coercion or the shadiness of the system trickling down to families.

They shouldn't have to.

I shouldn't have to be doing

the education and the advocacy that I'm doing for families.

I shouldn't have to be doing that.

I shouldn't have to do that.

So, the doctors should be having doing it.

They should be having conversations.

They should be holding each other accountable.

They should be not saying, hey, just do what I say because I'm saying it.

No.

Yeah, well, I think that actually goes, that goes back to the importance of what you just mentioned, which I didn't know that high-risk versus low risk or average, whatever.

Like that is, because this stuff, informed consent and having these conversations would be very normal practice in a lower,

it's low risk.

So we can have these conversations in not

being an emergency medical situation, which what you're talking about is like, you're like, I'm not talking about those situations where it's like, hey, where it's life or death.

Yeah, where it's emergency and we have to do this thing.

It's more or less like the reason that they're low risk, they're normal.

There's a reason for you to hastily grab scissors and go to do something without talking about, hey, I'm going to, you know what I mean?

So it's really interesting.

And I, and I, it makes me think about what is

like what is the intention behind a lot of the nurses and these things in in the um in the ob gyn space where they're so adamant to get that baby out like fast i feel like did you like that's how i felt yeah it just feels like come on hurry up and get the baby out and i'm like why

why

do you see that a lot in your world i do or i i don't as much i don't as much um and i don't know if it's just because they know a duel is present like i i don't know i don't know why but um because one of my main goals is to like slow the chaos.

You know, like

let's all take a big, deep breath.

You know, and that's another thing that bothers me is if they're trying to rush you and, hey, let's get this baby out.

Was baby's heart rate going down?

You know, was there something going on?

And y'all are over here in the dark going.

What's the rush?

And nobody's educating.

So you don't know.

Like, I can't tell you that nothing was happening because as many labor and delivery nurses and OBs and midwives that I'm around that I have learned from and I talk to, some of them are trained not to say anything.

to keep parents calm.

So, you know, so there's some of that too.

But I do feel like birth is rushed.

Birth is interrupted just because it's in the hospital system.

You know, not anybody's fault, but just, you know, the lights and the environment.

And that's going to break down labor because labor is kind of an inward thing where we're all in ourselves and we're trying to get through this thing and we have belts on and we have monitors and we have this and we're we're wanting to know we're doing it right and you can't be in the bed you can't be out of the bed and so we just want to be good patients.

Well, where does that come from?

That comes from, you know, Kate, you said it, either we're conditioned to be people pleasers or recovering people pleasers or we're in like trauma responses and we're just fawning.

We just want to be friends with you.

We want to know that we're doing the right things.

And, you know, so that's, you know, that's what I'm seeing that's really sad.

And it's

when people choose hospital birth, it's not necessarily sometimes it's out of education.

They don't know that they have the other option.

Maybe it's insurance reasons.

They don't have other options.

But I think the majority is this is where society gives birth and I don't know any other way.

And I'm scared to learn more because if I learn more, then I'm responsible for it.

And I mean, I was there four times.

I had, you know, the midwifery care, but really, as I was doing my doula work and starting really doing hospital births, it wasn't until maybe in the third or fourth year that I'm seeing all of these, you know, standards of practice that didn't make sense.

And I don't know if it's, you know, yes, high-risk OBs, but it's a lot of the hospital system.

Hey, we have policies and this is how nurses are trained.

And, you know, they have a checklist and there was no conversation, you know, like, hey, your water's broken.

You can't get out of the bed because of prolapse cord.

Okay.

Can you educate my client on that?

Or I would say, is baby well applied?

And, you know, I would ask questions like.

How can we work together to get around some of these policies?

And then there were outdated policies.

There's, you know, the policies of not eating and drinking and labor, which came from the 1940s.

Oh, yeah, Tyler always snake, he always snuck me drinks.

He would always put water in my cup and they would never know.

This is stupid.

Because in my head, I'm like, listen, I am not

willingly watching my wife.

Well, and you want to piss a pregnant woman off in labor?

Don't let her eat and don't let her have water.

Yeah, right.

I never really understood that, and I always thought it was strange.

But obviously, I'm assuming you've experienced some home births as well.

And what would, in your professional opinion, what is the biggest difference or takeaway that you see between hospital births and home births?

It depends on the person.

I'm going to be honest.

I've done pretty much both for long periods of time.

I have probably equal experience with both.

I was a midwife assistant for a while also,

but

the challenging part of the system really like tickles my

brain.

So I really love that.

I feel like the differences

depends on the person.

Like I said, it depends on the person on the belief system.

Because if you take somebody that feels really comfortable at home birth, like the oxytocin is going, there's no stress, there's no cortisol, because cortisol is going to make

your body in survival mode.

Your labor is not going to be really great.

That can happen at home or at the hospital.

So, it's not that one is better than the other.

It just depends on if the person is comfortable in the environment that they're in.

And that's not going to be the same both places.

The biggest difference that I see, though, is probably the pushing phases when there's nobody checking.

Like

there's, you know, the vaginal exams are pretty much non-existent unless there's a long period of time.

Like you are not seeing the progression of labor.

You're not seeing the contractions get stronger.

You're not seeing

the emotional, like you're happy, then you're not, then you're really not happy.

You know, you're not seeing the emotional progression.

The contractions are not getting stronger.

They're not getting longer.

You're not seeing any of that.

So maybe there might be a cervical exam to see, hey, is baby in a weird position?

Is there something?

Information gathering is what I call that.

But in the system, there's more of a checklist.

There's more of a standardized practice that they do for everyone.

And midwives have standards of practice, also,

but it's definitely not

controlled like the hospital is.

And then the environments are different.

It's more calming.

It's not,

there's no like hustle and bustle.

You know, it's just

very

kind of go with the flow.

The pushing phases are very different because,

you know, water is usually involved.

There's water,

water birth.

I know some facilities have those now, but it just seems more laid back.

There's no really timeframe unless there's

a big indication of something that maybe progressively is not going right.

So, I do understand when you say there's, there's a sense of hurry

in the system, but I feel like that's not just the hospital and the system.

That's insurance companies.

They're like, And I think what's interesting, too, to go go to go back to what you said about like how the pushing is different.

Like, um, so I had three medicated births, and then I wanted to do one non-medicated with our youngest.

And I'll never forget of like, I feel like when you're not medicated, your body just does it.

There's no control.

Um, and

my body was just pushing.

And the nurse looked at me and she's like, was that just a push?

And I'm like, I don't even know.

And I look, I looked at the nurse and said, that was a push because she's never made that noise or that face or any of those movements ever in life.

So I'm telling you, lady, like that was, that was a push.

But then the nurse in turn looked at me and she was like, don't push again.

Do not push again until we have the doctor in here.

And I remember in my mind being like,

and I, and I think, I don't even know if I said it off, but I remember being like, I can literally, I cannot control it.

And I, me and Ty talked about that a lot.

I'm like, that is the weirdest thing to me is to have somebody look at you and say, don't push.

You have to wait for the doctor.

And my body was just doing it.

I can't control it.

And to the point to where the doctor literally had to catch her with a gown because that's how my body was just pushing her.

She was trying to wash her hands as fast because she kept, you know, legs spread out.

She sees what's going on.

I see what's going on.

So I'll look at the doctor, like, oh, if you don't catch this baby, I'm going to have to.

Like, what's up?

Right.

And so, but I always think that's so interesting: how are you going to tell a woman that is in labor to not push when we literally cannot control it?

Especially, especially when you just asked her, Was that a push?

Like, you're asking a woman, you don't even believe she knows what a push is to not do that.

Like, that's insane.

Believing, believing people giving birth.

If a baby is coming out of a body, believe the person that it's happening to you.

This is my biggest pet peeve.

And if you go on my TikTok page, this is what I talk about the majority of the time.

Is labor and delivery nurses stop telling people not to push when their body is

involuntarily pushing that baby out.

Literally, how am I going to stop it?

I can't.

It's a breakdown of language and communication because there is the fetal ejection reflex, which is what you are like, baby is doing it.

Baby is doing it.

There's no, there's no nothing.

And then there's the urge to push, which is the Ferguson reflex, which is just the urge.

You know, it's, it's okay.

I feel the urge to push.

I need to help with it.

It's not,

you know, because those are totally two different things that we get confused about.

So when nurses are like, don't push, and you're like.

Yeah, what?

What do you mean not push?

Like you said, yeah, like she was coming.

There was no way I was going to like, what do you want me to like clench?

Like Like I'm holding a P, that's not going to work.

And also you telling a woman who's in the middle of this not to push, how scary is that?

Well, I remember being like, oh my God, I'm doing what?

Right, right.

It does.

It makes you feel like you're doing something wrong.

But then in turn, you're like, well, you're not because your body's just doing it.

Yeah, talking about increased cortisol.

Right.

So I just tell, you know, whoever's on the birth team or labor and delivery nurses, because, you know, depending on facility, it's looked down on for the labor and delivery nurses to deliver.

So that's really where the language is coming in on.

And I'm like, glove up, you know, you can report it later.

But you can't trickle that frustration or lack of communication down to

a mom who is literally having their baby and it's happening

without them.

And it's literally being happening without them.

You cannot make it their fault that they're doing something that they're not supposed to be doing.

And I hear that so much.

I mean,

it's ridiculous how many videos have gone viral in just that comment section.

It's, and, and we're in 2025.

Stop.

No, and it happens a lot.

I mean, I can, that was definitely not my first labor where somebody was like, don't push.

Right.

Yeah.

Which I thought was so weird too, because the way that I remember looking at Kate and the way her eyes were, I mean, it was like, nurse, do you not see how confused she is?

Like, she, you can't tell, she doesn't even know what's going on right now.

No, I didn't.

I did not know what was happening.

Yeah.

Have you ever, have you ever seen in your, in your work, like

differences?

Like, how many, let's, for instance, like, just to be more broader, like, how many

home births have to eventually be going to the hospital?

How many home births have I seen that had to be transferred to the hospital?

Yes, yeah.

So, in the time, so I've been doing doula work, birth work for 26 years.

And so, I would say

out of

I'm just going to be recent.

Okay.

So maybe out of 50 home births,

maybe two.

And they were for

pain management.

Oh, wow.

Really?

Oh, so it wasn't for necessarily like medical emergency babies in trouble thing.

No.

So I think a lot of people get that.

They're so afraid.

And that was, I think that was one of the things that, you know, with Raya, our last one, we talked heavily about it.

And I said, listen, there's these birthing centers.

I want you to have this.

It's our last baby.

Like, I just wanted you to have this

most amazing experience that you could have.

And so we talked about it for a little bit.

And that was one of the biggest things where it was like, I think the main concern and fear is, oh my gosh, what if something goes wrong?

For me, it was.

Yeah.

And that's a reasonable fear, but it's fear without education.

So your first mistake is you didn't have a Tracy because

what we would have done is we would have roundtabled the fear, you know, what education do you need?

And it's more about understanding what an emergency is and trusting your care team and how they would handle it.

So it's like, okay, what is the fear?

So a lot of it is, you know, what if I bleed too much or what if baby doesn't do well or all the things, right?

So what, whatever the emergency is that that family is afraid of, you ask your ask your midwife, ask the team, you build trust, you ask, how would you

remedy these things?

When would it be appropriate?

When do you think it'd be appropriate to transfer?

Because each midwife is not going to transfer the same for everything, right?

By experience and by comfort level.

So, say you know, you interview a midwife and they're you're like, Hey, this is my concern.

When would you transfer?

You got to be okay with that answer because the majority of transfers in home birth are non-emergent.

Oh, that's interesting.

And they're going to get ahead of a train.

It's not like we're sitting there, you know, thinking everything's fine, everything's fine.

Nobody, you know, we're out in a daisy field wherever you want to think home birth happens, because, you know, if somebody is thinking about home birth, it's all going to be talked about.

You know, I mean, a daisy field would be amazing.

I'm not going to lie.

Whatever.

Whatever.

And, you know, but we are watching.

And, you know, your midwives are still listening to babies, still doing all the things, still doing all of the monitoring that's happening even in the hospital.

And if something, now remember, the majority of people, I would say that, and I say majority because midwives have their own standards in interviewing who they will take into a home birth.

They're not just taking anybody.

So these statistics that I'm talking about are out of the UK because the U.S.

doesn't have enough for these statistics.

But the non-emergent transfers, these are low-risk people that are good candidates for home birth.

It means that they've had a healthy pregnancy.

It means that

they have one baby unless they're in a state that

says that home birth or people with multiples that can have home birth or those kind of things.

So these are low-risk people, no precursors to any medical things that can happen.

gestational diabetes or chronic hypertension or gestational hypertension, all the things.

Okay, so these are low-risk, uneventful people.

That's why if something looks off in a labor, it's going to be talked about way before it gets to be emergent.

So those are the things.

Yeah.

So

honestly, but yeah, when you speak about it like that, it's like, well, my question, I just automatically come back to like, why aren't more people doing

at-home births with midwives and duos?

Like, what, what, what, like, you know, because all the data, everything you're talking about, like, well, it comes back to fear.

Yeah.

I mean, I think, think, and me, and that's my opinion.

I think it comes down.

I think it comes down to fear for sure.

Do you feel like

doulas

or midwives are mistreated kind of in the hospital area?

Sometimes.

It just, yeah, it depends on the area and the, you know, that hierarchy and how, you know, how medical care is perceived, or especially if there's homebirth midwives transferring in.

There's a lot of, you know, head-butting with that, you know, I hear around our country.

Um, the midwife that I work the closest with has a wonderful relationship with the hospital that she collaborates with.

So it's about relationships and it's about, hey, we all have a job to do and we all need to respect everybody in their profession.

And, you know, like it's not, it's trickling down to like the mistrust and the OBs not liking the midwives and those kind of things are going to trickle down to the patients and they're not going to get good care.

Which is unfortunate because obviously they're there as in like, I'm the patient, help me.

Right.

The most important, me and the baby, you know.

But I, I, I always, you know, like you said about monitoring.

So, so for people who are confused, which I think a lot of people are based off, even I very don't know anything.

But like, so when you have a home birth, the midwife has the same kind of monitoring.

technology or whatever.

Can you talk a little bit more about that versus hospital?

Yeah, it's going to be, So, hospital, you have continuous fetal monitoring with the belts.

You've got the belts wrapped around you.

You have one that monitors the baby's heart rate, which is usually on the bottom, and the top one monitors the contractions, sometimes not how hard they are, but if you're having a contraction.

Now, that can be continuous or it can be intermittent, or what we talk about,

intermittent, intermittent alcoholtation, which is just like the Doppler, like they would use in the prenatal appointments.

So, at a home birth, it's just going to be Dopplering, but it's going to be, you know, kind of more often, but it's going to be during a contraction.

How well is baby recovering after a contraction?

Those kind of things to make sure that the baseline is still the same during the duration of the contract of the labor.

Early labor is different than active labor.

You know, like what is baby doing in early labor?

And sometimes you're not even in the hospital in early labor.

Sometimes you're just going to go in active.

But at a home birth, the midwife sometimes, not all the time, will go during early labor too and then leave and then come in active.

So, the monitoring is

to me, the monitoring is more in-depth because the midwife or the midwife assistant is doing it, is getting a personal, this is what's happening.

It's more of a critical thinking, and it's not just a strip because inside the system, evidence has shown that the you know, strips cannot be.

It sometimes it does, the monitors aren't working well.

Oh, yeah, inaccurate.

Continuous meat fetal monitoring by evidence is one of the number one reasons why people have cesareans today because they are inaccurate.

So, which is crazy because we're that's like I said, you're going into the system, relying on it, trusting it, and then all because of a simple malfunction of a machine.

That's that's kind of crazy to think about because I think most people, like, you know, that's their biggest fear is, oh my gosh, how do I make sure everything's safe?

And it's like, and that comes down to the then that trickles down to the question of, like, well, midwives are doctors.

I think people think that they're not.

And I'm like, they are.

So, like, they're able, whatever, whatever their process is for monitoring the baby is going to be legit.

Well, it's like, and of course, they want to do it correctly because they don't want nothing to happen to the mom or the baby.

Right.

And it's, yeah,

yeah.

Oh, right.

I just think it's interesting because like it keeps coming down to standardize care for high risk.

And it's like, you can't have standardized care for high risk and low risk.

That doesn't make any sense.

You can't standardize those two things, you know?

Right, right.

So, yeah, absolutely.

I would say the monitoring thing, too, or the standardized practices that happen in the hospital, I think happen a lot of times because of staffing.

You know,

your nurse is not going to be able, if that nurse has two or three patients

that are being induced or they're responsible for it, they're not going to be able to go in with the Doppler every 15 to 20 minutes to do a fetal heart tone.

So continuous fetal monitoring is easier for the system

just because of the way it's set up.

And that's the other frustration that I see.

You know, I can have the frustration just because I'm not employed by them or inside the system, you know, but I have a lot of really good

colleagues that are on the inside trying to change things, trying to say, you know, things like, hey, we need more intermittent monitoring.

We don't need to just hook up moms because, you know, we feel like we have to hibernate.

We feel like we have to be in the bed.

We don't need to be in the bed.

You know, if mom's good, baby's good, everybody needs to get out of that stupid bed, but they don't know it either, right?

So that's lack of education.

But is it lack of education because you know they're busy or they don't know it?

Sometimes I see that it's lack of education because that nurse doesn't want my client to know that she can get up and move around because it's going to be harder on her on her job.

And another thing that I see, you know, too, is: hey, we need to get baby back on the monitor.

You need to get back in the bed.

And I all

one of the things I always say is, don't absorb the job of your nurses.

It's your nurse's job to keep that baby on the monitor, not your job.

And if baby is coming off the monitor somehow, they need to come up with a way to keep that baby on the monitor if you need to be there because maybe you've got medicines going in you or, you know, for whatever reason.

Right.

But definitely it doesn't need to trickle down to mom to make her uncomfortable because of a a standard that is happening.

Yeah, and that's kind of what I'm in bringing up standards.

It's almost like, you know, when you mention even, you know,

I think people don't realize that when they're in that delivery room, this nurse has other patients.

You are not the only patient that this nurse is, you know, obligated to take care of.

So, like, is there even a standard for nurses to have all you can only have two patients?

You can only have three patients that you're caring.

It probably varies.

You know what I mean?

Probably varies.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which I think is really interesting.

It depends on the facility for sure.

I have been in some hospitals with clients that have one-on-one nursing, but it's rare.

I mean, it's really rare.

And see, that's kind of where I come in.

My belief is why it should be separate from the hospital.

Just a totally different

one-on-one.

And that would, and that, the more one-on-one, the less chance of nurses miscommunicating with each other.

Or I gave her that.

No, I didn't give her that.

When did you do that?

When did you do that?

It's like, well, if it's one-on-one, which I really believe it should be one-on-one because this birthing experience is insane.

And yeah, I feel like it would be, it would be better, you know, kind of of a standard, I think, to have a limitation on what, how many, you know, patients these nurses have to monitor.

Because I feel bad for these nurses who have to be.

I do too.

Could you imagine having that much pressure?

Baby, mom, birth.

And if your unit or whatever just happens to have so many deliveries that day, you're, I mean, and I've heard a lot of, you know, mistakes being made just by pure miscommunication between two nurses on different shifts and it's like oh my god could you imagine we're human i mean we make mistakes yeah it's just it's crazy you know also it's just it's it's a hard specialty i have a very soft spot in my heart for labor and delivery nurses i have seen them do some magic and have to you know walk away like nothing happened it's just interesting to learn more about um the system and stuff.

I wanted to ask, though, before we go and end this, because we could be talking forever.

but

what would your advice be for a woman who is pregnant and is

50% wanting to do

a hospital birth, 50% wanting to do a home birth, and just kind of on the fence about how to move forward?

Should they hire a doula?

Should they get a midwife, you know, etc.?

You know, I'm going to have fellow birth workers really hate me for this.

I don't believe everybody needs a doula, but I do believe everybody needs really good out-of-hospital education.

I think that everybody needs to dig deep into their whys.

Why do you want a home birth?

Why do you want a hospital birth?

What are your options?

What are your local options?

Just because it sounds really great doesn't mean that it always is.

The grass is not always greener.

You need to understand your own belief system and where you're coming from

and

get the education.

I think doulas are good to reach out to and ask for, you know, hey, I'll pay for an hour consult with you so that you give me my options.

But I don't.

I say because what you're talking about, I'll do look and help you with that, figuring out your whys and stuff.

Yeah, figure out your whys, and then childbirth education.

I cannot tell you how important just the basic childbirth education is because you're going to get tips and tricks in there.

The things that I talked about today are in comprehensive childbirth education classes.

You know, I do, you know, coaching calls.

I would say the majority of my service for families is not in-person birth.

I just want families to get where they need to be in the journey that they are going on.

So, you know, it's not, hey, this looks fancy over here.

Let's try this.

It's really figuring out if that's really where you need to be because where you need to be is where you feel the safest in birth and psychologically whole.

Sounds like education, education, education.

Yeah, for sure.

Honestly, the main thing that I'm hearing from you is informed consent and education.

So those two things, that's huge.

Yeah.

I mean, very important.

So.

Wow.

Well, I feel like we could totally have more episodes, even more about a whole bunch of different things.

I was going to say, if you have a, if you have a specific midwife that

would be willing to share her experience or hers, I would love to.

The one you work with, like, if both of you guys were to come on, I think it's super, it's super interesting for sure.

Yeah, absolutely.

We have the best time at births.

We just had one not too long ago that we got in the car.

The mom and dad were in the back.

We were hoping to make it to the hospital because she was a hospital birth and and construction was on the interstate.

Oh,

yes, but we made it.

We made it.

It's

a lot of fun.

But yeah, absolutely.

We I could talk about this all day.

I just want families to understand that they have choices, they have rights, and not everything is what it seems.

Yeah,

awesome.

Okay, so if people don't know where to find you, where can they go to find you?

I am on TikTok at Tracy Doula4.

I am on Facebook, which is Tracy Doula Maternal Instincts.

I'm on Instagram at Tracy Doula and YouTube at Tracy Doula.

Well, thank you so much for taking time to join us today.

And

yeah, it was super fun, super interesting.

I definitely learned some things that I'm like, oh, wow, you know.

And just thank you for spending your afternoon with us today.

Absolutely.

I just love getting to know y'all.

Y'all are just the best.

Oh, thank you.

Thank you.

This October, fear is free on Pluto TV with horror movie collections from paranormal activity, The Ring.

You will die in seven days.

Scream.

And from dusk till dawn.

This is my kind of place.

And don't miss the man-made nightmares in Mary Shelley's Frankenstein or the world-ending chaos in 28 days later.

Something in the blood.

All the scares, all for free.

Pluto TV.

Stream now, pay never.

Hi, I'm Adam Rappon, and this is Intrusive Thoughts, the podcast where I finally say the stuff out loud that's been living rent-free in my head for years.

From dumb decisions to awkward moments, I probably should have kept to myself.

Nothing's off limits.

Yes, I'm talking about the time I lost my phone mid-flight and still haven't truly emotionally recovered from that.

There might be too many sound effects.

I've been told to chill.

Will I?

Unclear.

But if you've ever laid awake at night cringing at something you said five years ago, congratulations, you found your people.

Intrusive Thoughts with Adam Rippon is available now wherever you get your podcasts.