Reality TV Bullying with Rei Clarke

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Hey guys, so it is Wednesday again. Hump day.
Hump day.

Welcome back to another episode of Kate and Tie Breakdown. And today...
We're breaking it down with Ray, reality TV with Ray.

Popular podcast, Jerry.

First podcast. This is my first podcast.
Thanks for having me. I'm excited.
And it's with you guys. I know.
Thanks for coming all this way. Thanks for having me.
Yes. We're so excited.

I'm so excited to have you. Who knows how much hate we're going to get? Because I don't know.
I mean, you need to bash me on here. You need to bash us.

Shame, shame, shame you. Yeah.
Yeah. Shame on.
You need to kill us, right? You know,

it's like, you know, not everything needs to be said to people on the internet, you know, especially when you talk to people.

It's like people, stuff can be said to each other that's not on the internet. Well, you were just talking about that.
I mean, you literally just had to do a live. Did you feel compelled to do a live?

Cause you're like, dude, I'm so sick of seeing this shit or what was it?

Yeah, so I had just gotten on a live last night because I was, I'm, I am someone like I am very, if this is what I'm in right now, like this is my feeling, I'm headstrong, like I'm going in.

So that's why I went on the live last night and I was talking about you and I was like, I'm sick of this bullying like i'm sick of this because it it also reminds me like i was bullied my whole life

so

um and i and i understand people are like well you know if you can't handle it then you shouldn't be on tv or you shouldn't be on the internet or whatever but that doesn't give anybody the right to bully or body shame you know what i'm saying it's just it doesn't make any sense to me like you i don't think it warrants it no because i'm on public TV does not give me a doesn't warrant you to be just a complete unnecessary asshole.

Yeah, and and are you going to come to my face and tell me to my face? They wouldn't.

If anything, they'd be the ones that come out to you and say, like, oh my gosh, you're so much prettier than what you are on camera. I'm like, oh, you kill me.

I'm like, well, that was a fucking

thing. And they say it's so comfy that when they say it, I'm like, man,

what the fuck? Wow, you're so much pretty now than on camera. And I'm like, thanks.
Yeah, it's like, how do you respond to that? Thank you.

I'm admitting. If I say thank you, I'm admitting that look like you should on camera.
It's just like, how do you respond to that question? I would be like, oh, really? Like, So how do I look? Yeah.

Make him say it. Make them fucking look.
I can't.

Right. You know, just fucking say it.

Don't try to fucking sugarcoat it with some bullshit.

Yeah, but I also feel like we were just joking around because obviously you're on TikTok. You talk about, you cover pop culture.
Yeah. You do movies.
Movies. Just like tons of different shows.

You people.

What would you label yourself as?

You know, I keep trying to find the answer to that question. Right? We do too.
I'm like, it's like a hard. it's like, do you call him like,

I hate the word influencer, but

reality influencer. Right.
I don't consider myself a content creator. Um,

and I

don't really consider myself a blogger either because I talk about everything.

Right. Um, it's kind of like a mix.
Like, you talk about a bunch of different people, and whether they're on reality TV or different other things, or yeah, I feel like it's very broad. Right.

And that's why I changed my name to Ray Clark because I felt like I was getting boxed into just reality TV. Yeah.
When I'm like, yo, I'm a huge movie buff. Right.
Right.

Let me talk about these movies right now.

You know, or like sometimes people ask about me or who I am. And I'm like, do I like stick to this or whatever?

So I really don't have a name for it right now. I wish I could, but I just don't have it.
You're just going with the flow. I'm just going with the flow.
Talking,

sharing your opinions. Take me as I am.
Right. No, I love it.
I love it. Yeah.
I do too. No, I do too.

It's refreshing. It's just refreshing to see because I feel like there's so many people who are not doing the way you're doing it.

Like, I will say, I think you and L are two of the ones that I have the most respect for because

you guys do it in a way of staying true to yourself, but also being kind to other people and not honing in on just dogging a specific person. You know what I mean?

Yeah, and that's respectful because I think in this community, especially TikTok,

how do you gain followers? Hate.

How do I get the most engaged on my posts? I'm going to do very, make a very controversial hot take,

which is going to invite hatred and criticism. And so I feel like you and Elle are going to do a really good job of like balancing it.
Well, I will say that Elle is

way nicer than me. I know.

She, I love her. She is.
So kind. She gives like that southern like charm vibe, you know, like so sweet.

Cause she knows how to like read you for filth without you feeling red. You know, you were red.
Yeah.

And I am just more, I go based off of like my emotions at that time.

And sometimes, like, I will say, like, I've talked about other cast members on teen mom, like, especially if they have something immediately happening. You're right.
Right. Yeah, of course.

And obviously, I'm going to talk about it in that moment. So if they have something back to back to back to back, it's not that I'm just trying to bully that person.

It's like, listen, it's not my fault that they're so much shit going

So I

um I try my best, and I spoke about this last night too.

I have changed the way that I discuss things on my platform because I too am realizing that words do matter.

Words matter, right?

I've seen the change, I will say, from the first time I ever saw you. Yeah.
And

as much as I

love to be a commentator and, you know,

read people on the side. I still have to make sure that

I'm not hurting anybody in the process

because people do follow me. Right.

And I'm not saying like I'm like this really big person, but the following that I do have, I want them to be able to trust me and to know that, you know, I'm, I'm just giving the information without hurting somebody and you can do that.

Well, and I was going to add to what he was saying. Like the thing about you and L2 is that I feel like you guys aren't just coming up with some sort of conspiracies in your head.
Right.

You're not listening to some Joe Blow in your DMs telling you information and then running with that until it ends.

Like, you act, you guys actually do the due diligence to find out, like, is this accurate? Is this what's really going on? Like, you hold on to that integrity, right?

Yeah, well, I think it is integrity because you easily could fill in the space with all your opinions. And I think it's which I mean, we still do have values, obviously.

but but but i think but i think one thing that separates you from everybody else is that you actually keep it in the forefront of your mind hey could this hurt somebody yeah which i don't think anyone on this app on tick tock are is doing because i think they know that the algorithm will reward them if they if the more harsh and critical they are you know what i mean and you guys are actually hey listen fuck the followers and likes i mean yeah they're great but i'm gonna focus more on maintaining my moral integrity and how i am as a person which i feel like is it you know

it shows Yeah, you can tell it's a huge difference between huge differences, you know, a lot of them. But you have to see it.

You see other creators on there that are, yeah, I see all the creators on there, and I sometimes I look at them and I'm like, like, why?

Why? Like, why go that far? Yeah, right. Why go that far?

Like, if it's one thing, if I'm like reading off all the things that you've done,

you know what I'm saying? Because you've done it. Right.
You did it. I didn't do it.
I'm not making it up. You did it.
Right.

But to go as far as, and yes, I do give my opinion, but to go as far as to be malice you know intentionally hurt somebody that for me is is too much yeah no because like you said words do they do matter and i think there's a responsibility that people have listen i know people start off doing your work or you know making this content and stuff like that for a specific reason but once it gets to a level now

you have to you have to take Responsibility for that. You have a responsibility of that.
You have a huge one. You're like not ignore it and be like, well, it's just my opinion.
I don't give a shit.

It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I mean, you should give a shit.
If you care about people, you should definitely give a shit. And when you get to a certain level, I think you should

do some moral inventory, check yourself, and figure out how am I going to move forward. I think people just get so drowned out by

the attention they get from being so harsh and critical and cruel that they don't even think to check themselves. And I think people need to do that.
Yeah.

Yeah, they've lost, people have lost filter. Yeah.
Filter's gone. It is gone.
It's like, dude, I mean, people are reading this stuff. And they, like you said, I have followers now.

That's responsibility. If someone that you make a video and that follower is like, that really hurt me, that's not your intention.
You know, so it's like, of a court.

I mean, I just feel like the people who are not doing that, like, could learn something from you. That's all I'm saying.
Literally, the other day,

the other day I was in bed and I was like, and I made a video and I said, how come? And I was about you guys.

I was like, How come other people can talk about Caitlin and Tyler and bash them and everything else, right?

But if I am just saying, like, for example, when you had mentioned that you got your diagnosis that you were autistic, right? Right.

And I was like, but how come if I can just mention something that's, that they discussed or something that's happening? Right. Well, shame on me because I wasn't bashing them in the process.
Yeah.

How is that fair when I report on everyone else? Well, people are about to have a fucking heyday here.

You know what I mean? Like, what the fuck? I don't know. No, they're going to be like, you're going to have a payroll, so they're going to say.

And then even when Ray went online, when the whole tech scandal happened, and she was like, Do you think people should be talking to minors? No, like yada, yada, yada. And she said her opinion.

So cut and dry. And me as a friend, I'm like, Yeah, totally here.
Oh, yeah. Got it.
Absolutely.

I fucking agree. And then even then, she's like, Still ain't good enough.
Look at it. Still ain't

good enough. It's crazy.
Yeah. It's not until I am just saying, like, you're worthless.
You're garbage. Right.
You're, because that's what I was called last night. Because when I posted that,

a lady came on and she was like, well, you're trash. Like, you're a trash person.
I was like, so does that make you a garbage disposal because you're coming on here bullying me? Right.

Just for asking a question? It was a yes or no. Like,

you know, like,

why is that so difficult? Why do you have to bash somebody to make? And then afterwards, because after I said that, right, she was like, well, do you feel better about yourself now? Well, do you?

You came out. You're calling me trash.
I know. I love it when you call the people out because I'm just like, fuck yeah, Ray.

Just the way you say things to some people that just say, like, comment stupid shit on your stuff. I'm like, it makes me laugh.

I have learned because my whole life, like I've been taught to filter myself. Like people say I'm loud and aggressive because of the way I speak.
And for years I was made to be silent.

So as an adult and through therapy, I have learned that it is okay to be loud. It is okay to have a voice.
Yes, absolutely.

You don't like it too fucking bad.

But then I'm like, I've told you before, like not even on camera and stuff too. I'm like, and how fucking stereotypical of you to say I'm loud and aggressive? What the fuck? Fuck you.

You're not going to make me get loud and aggressive. Why are you calling me loud and aggressive?

It's, it's weird. It's, it's very weird.
The fan base is weird. Okay,

how did all this start though? How did you get into this whole thing? We don't know what to label it. Yeah, content creator, whatever.
Yeah, so how did I get it? Okay, like into like social media. So

I

love reality TV. Okay.
I love the drama. I'm not going to lie.
Oh, yeah. Everyone does.
I love it. I love the tea.
Um,

I was, I got my wife into watching some of it with me, right? Like housewives and stuff. Before she'd be like, No, I don't want to watch.

I'm like, Okay, so I watched one myself, and then every once in a while, she'd be like, What's wanted to look at? What's happening on the corner? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Like, well, what happened with Salzo? You know,

so then when she started watching with me, I was like, Oh, well, maybe she's as invested as I am.

So, when I would find out, tea, like, see some tea online, and I would tell her, She'd be like, I love you, but I don't care.

I'm not being honest.

And she was like, I really love you. And I know that you like this stuff, but I really don't give a shit.
And I was like, okay, that's fair.

So I went on TikTok one day and I was like, I'm just going to give my opinion. Like give my two cents, like tell somebody what's happening.
And I did. I made a video on it.

turned my fucking phone off. And then next day it was like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
What was it about? You remember? No.

I think it was about Janelle. Oh,

I think, I want to say it was about Janelle. Okay, got it.
Yeah, because she had a lot going on at that time because she had just left David. Oh, okay.
Oh, okay.

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And then if someone makes a video about it, I know to their profile sometimes and I'll see that. Like that, only that one video has like

100,000 views, and their other ones will have not a lot. And I'm like, oh.
And it got me thinking, like, okay, so

once something gets traction like that, and someone goes, oh, it's like the algorithm. Yes.
Okay. Oh, here's what I have to do to get more.
Oh, this is a follow-up.

Oh, this is how I get a lot of followers. And so they get honed in and they almost get like too.

Some people more than others. Yeah, they get too like focused on that.
Okay, I'm going to keep repeating that same content so I can get that same engagement.

I was taught, I spoke about Janelle, Janelle and then I spoke about Gypsy Rose because she had just gotten out.

And that was mainly how I got a lot of my followers was because I went on a live and I was like, so do you think that Gypsy should be in prison still? Or do you think that she should be free?

Like, what do you guys think? And that's, I got like a lot of traction from that. I spoke about housewives.
And then somehow I got wrapped into Teen Mom. Yeah.
I know, right?

And that just became like my main. thing to talk about.
So when everybody's like, why do you keep talking about Gypsy Rose?

Well, because she's one of the first people that I started talking about initially when she came out, yeah, and her stuff was very interesting.

I mean, it blew up when it started getting out and all the things. So, of course, I'm going to talk about it, right?

But I think it's interesting though, because the first, even the first way we ever got connected with you, it was you. You like you saw something, you saw a live or something like that.

Yeah, so it was because it was when you guys had just gotten the news that they had closed the adoption, yeah, and then you were posting a lot on your uh Instagram stories.

So, Kate was posting a lot on her Instagram stories. And I was like, is she having a spiral moment?

She's crashing out. Crashing out.
And so I remember I went on a live because I was at work and I hadn't clocked in yet.

So I was like on my live, having my little chit chat, drinking my little coffee, right? And then Kate was in the comments. And I remember this specifically because

somebody said, like, not Caitlin in the comments. And I read that out.
I read it out. Caitlin in the comments.
I was like, not Caitlin in the comments. Wait, Caitlin's in the comments.
Wait, what?

Uh-huh.

So then I was was like, if you want to talk, like, come up. Like, let's, let's talk.
And so you did. And it was because, like, people were circulating a whole bunch of like misinformation then.

And so when I saw Ray talking about some things, I was like, well, no, this is what I, I was kind of trying to tell her, like, no, but this is actually what happened.

And so then, yeah, she brought me up and we started having a whole conversation about it. Yeah.

Which that right there I think is important because that shows the vulnerability on your side to talk about what's going on. This is how I feel about it.

You having the courage to be, hey, I know you're not really agreeing or you're, you know, it's hot take on all the situations i'm and then for you to say well come on join you say okay i mean that right there that that kind of like ability to just be in that space even if things are yeah whether you have opinions

but you know i can tell you from my side you can see how it feels from your side and then if they ever want to share their side they can't i think it developed this like ability to like okay we can actually some pe most people are not as bad as you think they are right you know what i mean like you see them from outside you think oh all these things and then you talk to them or you you get to know them better, and it's like, oh, wow, like, holy shit!

Like, well, and I think, too, like, in the realm of like reality TV and like, even just everything that happened with us and the adoption and all of that, it's like not a lot of people knew the full scope of the situation, right?

You know what I mean? Right. So I could.
It's their fault. So we're here to just make it's it's it's our fault because a lot of things we felt like we couldn't share in the past or whatever.

And then eventually, once it's closed, I got nothing to lose. I'm putting it all out there now.
You know what I mean?

So, and I will say, like, when I would talk about about you guys, there were times where it was something, like, for example, um, there was a video that I made that blew up, right?

Because it was around the time that

you and your mom weren't talking and you were having a discussion with Nova. Oh, yeah.
And Amber called

her daughter a dick.

So it was those two, like in the same freaking episode or a sequel.

Yeah. So when that happened, I was talking about trauma and healing and how important it was to be be heard as a child instead of being talked down to.

And that was another video that had blown up because I was like, these are the differences. The polarity.

Right. Because two people.

Two people can have trauma. No trauma is better than the other, right? Right.
Who wants it?

No trauma is better than the other, but it's how you deal with that trauma, right? And how you break those cycles.

And I talked about how important it is to break those cycles, not to put those cycles. And it's hard, but you got to try.
You're damn to try it.

So you were pretty much bringing the polarity of, like, wow, we have one calling her daughter dick. We have one saying, I'm here for you.
This is really hard. Pretty much holding the space.

I guess that's interesting because I didn't really think about it from that perspective. But yeah, it makes sense.
But yeah,

I had talked about everything. So when that moment came up, I was like, well, I don't know what the hell is going on.
I just know she's posting a lot. Right, right.

Yeah. So that's when I had the opportunity to have you up.
I was like, well, come up. Like, let's talk.
Were you shocked that she invited, like, what came up? Hell yeah.

Hell yeah. I was like, damn, what the fuck? I was like, wait, is this really? You know, and then I heard her voice and I was like, oh, oh, oh, yeah.
All right. Uh-huh.

Hey, girl. Yeah.
Well, I just think it's a lot of, I think it's, I, I, I give a lot of credit to both of you, but I feel like a lot of people, I don't think, are willing to

expose themselves on that level. Like, you went on a live.
That live could have went any which way. Yeah.
You know what I'm saying? Especially, you know, me, I'm emotionally reactive. Oh, very.
Yeah.

Which I'm like, hey, go for it. But I'm like, and at the end of the day, I'm like, oh man, you go going live, K.
It's woo. You know, he doesn't know what the fuck's going to come out of my mouth.

So he's like, I don't know.

But, uh, but I thought it's, it's kind of crazy because moving forward, now we're just having this conversation, which never would have been enabled to happen. Right.

That, if, if, if that vulnerability and that courage didn't come together and it happens that way, which I think is just, it's so cool.

Well, and I also think it's important for people to understand, like, have like being able to speak or converse with people when you want to ask questions, right?

Like, I've asked you guys tons of questions in lives and that's like what you do too asking questions yeah yeah so if i'm if i have you on a live if i invite you into my home and then i spit in your face when you come into my home yeah you're gonna turn around and walk the fuck out right right right and no one's gonna be heard no yeah no and versus i me inviting you into my home having a cup of tea and having a discussion right so that maybe the audience gets a different perspective.

Right. And it may not be something that they agree with, but at least they can hear you out.
Yeah. And a lot of people expect me to just,

you know, yell at you and curse at you and name call you when where you come here, you try that. And let me know how that works.
Right. Yeah, exactly.

Well, I think it's kind of Jordy Craig said the same thing. That's exactly what I was going to say.

Like, I think around that time that I joined your live was like around the time when we had it was around the same time you were

the conversation with Jordy too. And same thing.
Like we didn't go into it changing his mind, but I was like, I want you to be fully educated

about the topic of my life and my experience if you're going to talk about it. If you're going to talk about it, right? Like, doesn't mean you have to agree with it.

Even to this day, Jordy's like, do I still agree with some of those things? No. But do I have more of an understanding? Yes.
Yeah. And it was kind of like the same thing.

Which I think that's what society is lacking right now is that there's, where is the curiosity for deeper understanding for individuals? Yeah.

Why are we, and has the digital space created such a, you know, divide that we're losing that curiosity to understand people on a deeper level? I mean, I think it does.

I think it completely shuts people out. And then what warrants more cruelty than just having this, oh, well, not a real person.
There's this wall.

I can't, you know, so I think it's important to like do that. Or like, it's like a trend.
They have to follow the trend to feel important. Yeah.
You know, versus getting,

I got so much backlash just for, you know, talking to you guys or being your friends. And it was like, I felt so.
I know, we felt horrible. We're like, dude, Raiders, kick us to the curve.

Is that worth it? No.

And I remember, like, I remember, because a lot of people were like, well, they didn't have your back, blah, blah, blah. But they didn't know.

You know, we were talking and you guys were like, look, if you don't want to be our friend, if you guys, if you don't want to talk to us because you're getting the hate, like, we understand.

Yeah. You know? But I also felt like if I don't stay true to me and who I am and how I feel, then the only person I'm betraying in this world is myself.
Right. You know, just what?

Just to appease a few followers? Right. Yeah.

And I think we felt bad during that period of time too was like because we started becoming friends in a time in our life where we were getting a lot of hate. Yeah.

And I felt like at that moment, I felt like, wow, me just even putting it out to the world that I am friends with Ray and just because she talks about people online like dragged you into this fucking mess that you had no part of.

Which you didn't want to. You know what I mean? Yeah.
And I was like, this is so un and that's why I was very much like, listen, I understand. Like because you didn't ask for all this bullshit,

stupid nonsense just because we talk. Yeah.

Well, and that's why I feel it's kind of like our responsibility as people who are public figures, whatever you want to call it, that like we understand to be, well, also to reach out to people who have supported us or shown or whatever that like when things happen, I'm gonna be transparent with you because I think you you deserve it.

If you're gonna go and talk about and

be our friend, whatever, like you deserve to know the truth. And that's why when all the crazy texting stuff happened, I reached out to you right now.
I said, I'll send you all of it.

You can have all of it. it.
You know what I mean? Yeah. Cause when all of that happened, like I was in, I was camping.
I was camping and I'm like getting, like my service is in and out. Okay.

So when this is happening and I'm seeing stuff and I'm like, yeah, my phone, like I'm driving through the curves and it's going bing, bing, bing, bing. And all gosh, what is happening? Right.

And I like look and I like see what's, you know, what they're sending me and I immediately send this to you. And I'm like, hey, you know, what is this? Right.
Yeah. Right.
Right.

You know, and so we had that discussion, and I said, like, don't message this person again. Don't, don't talk to these people.
Right. Clearly, these are people that you can't trust.
Right.

Like, you know, who is true?

So when it happened, and you were like, yeah, no, I, you know, I'm not. And then I lost service again.
So I was like, well, I'm fucked.

You know? And because the thing too is like, you know, there's lots of things like, like how you said, how you had that conversation. Like, hey guys, this isn't a good look.

You probably need to stop who you're talking. Because as friends, we don't have to go blast it all over the internet.

I can, I can tell, you know, I tell my friends one time, like, hey, man, you're being really fucking dumb. Like, I wouldn't probably do that, but I'm not going on the internet on Facebook.

My friend's an idiot. I told my friend, I told my friend Amber today that she needs to fucking stop what she's doing because she looks like a psycho ass bitch and she needs to knock it off.

You know what I mean? Like,

why do we have to do that? And why do you have to bash certain people online just so that way you don't get bullied? Yeah, which is weird.

Like, how does that, how does bullying counteracting your own bullying by bullying somebody else? So, from my understanding, is

you are talking about all these other people and what all these other people are doing, right? You should be doing the same thing.

And I was like, well, I did, right?

That's what I don't get.

I don't get either. I'm like, uh, and when I did, y'all were coming for me, right?

So, I, it didn't matter how I said it, when I said it, because at that point, all you guys saw was, well, you're having dinner with them. So, you're, you guys are in cahoots.

And I was like, Look, and my wife asked me, She was like, Are you sure like you want to keep? And I was like, Listen,

I don't, I don't care because at the end of the day, like I said, I have to be able to sleep at night with my decision,

right?

And I go based off of what I see and what I know. And

so, when I'm seeing like all these other things on the internet, like on TikTok, especially all these people saying all of these certain things, I'm like, well, how are they getting this information?

Yeah, right. Which is giving you a lot of things.
The difference is though, Ray, you reached out. The difference is you reached out before, making a video, making this huge thing.

You said, hey, guys, this is what I'm seeing. What's the deal?

And that right there is curiosity for a deeper understanding. So you do have a really good

magazine person. A real journalist.

A real journalist. A real journalist.

Because there's people out there, I think, that pretend it, like,

we're just covering pop culture media. It's like, you're not, though.

You're using it as an excuse to be hateful and stuff like that. Because, like you you said, some people are like putting facts out there.
It's like, where did you find this information?

Can I see this information? Yeah, and when I'm given, and when I'm not given this information, I'm like, well, then, how can I? I can't just go based off your word. Right, right.
Right.

I gotta have proof, right? Like, solid proof.

Help me. Help you.
Help me. Help you hate them.
Right. Right.
Right.

So I, so that's, and that's why when so many people are like, well, I'm disappointed in you.

You don't pay my bills. Right.
What are you disappointed? The only person that I care about is my wife, right? And my wife is damn proud of me.

So at this point, I'm thinking, show me,

it's like a teacher, show me your work. Yeah.
Right. Show me your work.
This should be simple to do if you can work.

You guys know, you know, you guys have entrusted me with a lot of stuff that I don't share with people. A lot of content creators know this, right? Obviously, I'm a trusted human being.
You are.

So why is it difficult for you to share this piece of information with me and say, please do not share, which I wouldn't. Right.

even if you guys are my friends yeah like please you know please don't share this absolutely right this is you're trusting me with this

but at that point i can then go to you guys and say look I saw this for myself. Yeah.
Right.

Cut the bullshit. Yeah, right, right, right.
You know, right. And, and I know what's up.
Yeah.

And then I, and then I'd move on. It's because you're a good person, Ray.
That's why. Well, I think in your intentions behind doing what you're doing is also pure.

It's not, you're not, you don't have any malice intent. You're not, you're not in in it for the, for the, like, just being cruel and just, you know, creating discourse.

Because I do believe that there's healthy discourse and unhealthy discourse. And I think you promote healthy discourse.

And I think people that are on this app do just promote unhealthy and they thrive off of it. And unfortunately, I hate that they get, I hate that it's more popular, I guess.

I hate the unhealthy discourse is more popular than the healthy part. So I feel like it's a whole thing, but I, you know, it takes a lot of vulnerability to do what you do.

Because like you said, I mean, just for being in friends with someone, you get dragged, which is and I'm like, I can't help it that I met Ray, we met on a live one time, and then we talked every now and then, and then she's a really good person.

I ended up liking her, she likes us, yeah, I'm like, is that a fucking problem?

What the fuck? Yeah, man,

yeah, and even being friends, like we've said, like, we don't have to agree, not at all, we don't have to agree.

Yeah, I have a lot of friends that do some stupid ass shit that I don't agree with, and I'll tell them that, but I'm still their friend, yeah.

But that's kind of why I thought it was important for all of us to have conversations because, like, I mean, here's, here's, I always want to have that, give the people the opportunity.

What do you want? What question do you have? What, you know,

what are people saying? What do people want you to ask us? What are people, what are they, what do they want? You know what I mean? What the hell do people want?

Right?

Like, like, when you satisfy your people, what the fuck do they want? Okay, okay.

Damn.

You know? So, um,

one of the things,

and this is so hard, right? Because so many people,

I asked all all the damn questions that you wanted me to ask. But some people were like, okay,

as soon as this person started texting, why continue texting? Why not say, okay, yes, this sounds like it's a possibility, right? You fear for your daughter.

Why not say, okay, I'm going to reach out to Don. I'm going to reach out and see if we can get a hold of Brennan and Teresa and try to get this resolved or whatever the case is, right?

Or not reach out to Brennan and Teresa and maybe go to police officials or whatever the case is.

Well, at first, for one, there wasn't a lot to happen at first that required, I think, police intervention at first.

It was a very slow, dragging thing. But we reached out to Dawn and told her that we were getting this information very early on.
We're like, Dawn, we're getting these random messages.

We're getting random phone calls. We're getting,

you know, spam stuff that people are texting from weird numbers off of apps, whatever, whatever.

And, you know, I feel like when we asked Dawn and told Dawn about it, it was very kind of nonchalant. She said, well, you know, yeah, people are crazy.
And so I was like, okay.

And then, so I feel like I think people just thought we just like were messaging for months without saying anything to anyone else.

And it's like, well, I thought Dawn was very first person to reach out to, obviously.

And I think people need to remember too, at that time when this was, when this all started, too, like our adoption was already closed. Yeah.
Like we weren't speaking, you know, with Teresa or Brandon.

Like literally our only outlet was Dawn at the time. We couldn't even text them.
We were blocked. They wouldn't get it.
So or else we would have. Hey, we're getting messages from some weird stuff.

And also, I didn't know whatever. And I think, like, people that aren't affiliated with adoption and understand how the dynamics work, unfortunately, um, and

if you just don't understand what you're not a part of, I guess. And

when we were getting these things told to us about supposedly what was happening,

um,

who we and plus, also, you have to remember too that when these people are telling us things before the stuff that we were nervous about, it has, it's somebody that knows her. I still do this day.

I'm like, it's somebody that knows her, it's somebody that was involved in the community.

Nobody else would know these things that this person knew. Um,

and so when she was telling us these scary things that we were kind of nervous about, it was like, I wanted to, part of you is like, I need to know more information to see if this is fully true, right?

Is this accurate? Is this what's going on? Um, so of course, it was like, well, I'm going to try to keep this person talking to try to decipher, like, is this legitimate or is this not?

Um,

so I mean, honestly, it comes out. And I would, we would text Dawn.
I'd be like, Dawn, you know, is Carly, you know, has, has you, have you heard anything?

Has she been like, have they been saying, like, she's been acting out or having a hard time? Or, like, trying to kind of confirm or validate anything.

You know, have they said, like, has there been issues in the home and stuff? And Dawn would, you know, say, like, no, I haven't heard anything, you know, all these things.

And then I'm like, well, then in your mind, you think, well, like, maybe they're not telling Dawn these things are going on. You know, she's not telling her parents.
Right.

Yeah, you kind of play mental gymnastics. It's hard.
But I do feel like any

natural parent hearing things would immediately go to action mode.

When you don't have access to do action mode, you go the next best thing, which is, okay, I'm going to try to get as much information as possible.

I'm going to reach out to Dawn simultaneously, try to see what's figuring, whatever. And I feel like people don't understand that we were very outspoken about, hey, this is what's happening.

So it wasn't like we were talking. I think we both think we were talking for months or months and months or whatever.
And then not saying anything to anyone outside of us. Us.
You know what I mean?

It was like, no, you were like, hey, Don. And I thought for sure Dawn was the best person, the only person that would have even been able to get any answers.
Yeah.

And then, you know, so yeah, I mean, I feel like,

should we have, I guess it's kind of hard because I couldn't get a hold of them. If I could have talked to her parents, it would have been so, oh, this would have not ever happened.

You know what I mean? And also, too, it's like when all the texting and stuff was going on, there was always this part where it's like, there's no way in hell. Like, what kid talks like this?

And then they would say what kind of, you know, and then, and then all of a sudden they would bring something up about their lives. And it's like, but who would know that?

And then, so then we were thinking ourselves, like, there's no way this is a kid.

And so we knew, we were like, well, if we keep them plugging along, like, we know it's somebody that's close because there's just things that you don't know. And honestly, is that right or wrong?

I mean, okay, listen,

I, it wasn't, it wasn't. Do you feel like that? That's like a muddy

area? It is. And for people that aren't.
In adoption, it's extra muddy.

And for people that aren't,

you know, first parents, birth parents, whatever you want to call,

and you don't understand the PTSD of relinquishment. You don't understand the PTSD of your adoption getting closed and all these promises not kept to you.

You're not going to understand what your mind will do to you. And also, like,

want to know. Yeah.
And you're also not going to, and also you don't understand how common it is in the adoptee space community how intense

evangelism is and how intense certain things that are damaging and concerning. So, like, when these things are being said to you, most people, I think, would be like, oh, yeah, right, bullshit.

But it's like, no, when you know the culture and you know the commonality of a lot of adoptees telling you things that are,

I mean, you, you, you have no, you can't fight your parental instinct to protect or whatever. You know what I mean? And I think you said something.
I meant you mentioned something. Oh, yeah.

Man, one of my nieces, I read, I mean, I'd be like, what the fuck?

What the fuck's going on? And

so, yeah, I mean, I think,

you know. So, for the normal person that's not involved in the dynamic of it, you would have probably contacted a cop or something.
Sure, whatever. I don't know.

I mean, I don't know what you would have done, but. But also, yeah, it's going to look fucking crazy.

You know what I mean? It's going to look fucking nuts. Because it is.
It is fucking nuts. Yeah.
It is fucking. This whole adoption space is nuts.
But I will say, full accountability for being wrong.

Should the conversation have happened that long that they did? Absolutely not.

But I think it was a, and I say this multiple times, a million times, they can hear it or not. It was, it was just the desperation.

That's what happened. I mean, it was, and I think desperation has a root cause.
Why was I so, why are we so desperate to make sure these things were not happening?

And it was like, well, if I had access to information, we could have, none of that's what it happened. So I think it comes down to like just that fear.
I mean, honestly, the desperation

to make sure everything was safe and good and whatever. That she was okay.
So let's say, right, because you guys do not believe that this was a minor. No.

Okay.

So

there was a time on Kale's podcast, right? Where I believe she said that, like, someone was like trying to message

her son or something, right?

And you guys had said, like, oh, that's like, that's weird. Would you guys see yourselves in this, in that same circumstance with this minor? Oh, like it being weird? Yeah.
Oh, yeah.

We've never said texting this fake minor was not weird. Like all of its weird.

Very weird. Never should have happened.
I mean, it's very fucking weird. Yeah.

But what do you, what do you do? I mean, could we handle it better? I think we could. Yeah, of course.

Were we wrong? Absolutely.

Was it warranted? Based off of the

intensity of where she's raised in the culture, I think it was warranted. Not to keep texting the minor, but to keep trying to make sure the safety was in place and everything was happening.

And I think it's interesting. Or also to see, like, is this person truly as close as they say that they are? Yeah, right.

So it's one of those things where it's like a catfish trying to figure out, but trying to maintain safety while you're catfishing because

whatever.

But I think it's interesting because to this day, and I literally have the messages of like, hey.

What's going on? And everyone in that community also believes you're catfished. So if this was true and real and everything was happened the way it's happened, we would hear about it.

We'd have charges against it. Something would have happened.
So, you guys have like no charges against you. Nothing.
Like,

we've never had any adult innocence.

Yeah.

And I think it's crazy because we never really talked about this publicly before, but at this point, we're like, I don't even need to. Right.
But since we're talking about it, whatever.

But, like, so reaching out, and I made sure, I said, Dawn, you need to confirm with me if any of this was accurate so I can do the right thing as an adult, as a father, and make it right. Right.

And so when she wrote back and said, No, they all say that this never happened. Like you got, you got cat-fished, pretty much.

And even Dawn was like, she brought up to them because Tyler was very much like, if there is a minor that is friends with Carly and her parents know, and if there's something going on, please put them in our direction.

Yes. Because as a parent-to-parent, if it was a legit minor, I would apologize and say, sorry, this got crazy, whatever, whatever the hell.

But no, for people now to be saying, like, oh, we have like a cease and desist or there's been charges pressed on us and cops are are involved. All lies.

Nothing. And also, where they where the hell did that even coming from? I don't know.
Listen, obviously, that people work.

Yeah, I don't know. But no, that has nothing, nothing.
And it's because I'm telling you right now, I think it's an adult in the community. I know it's an adult.

Honestly, at first, like I said, we thought it was like maybe an older cousin because she

knew some people.

Yeah, she was too. So, but yeah, I always say, like, I'm waiting for the charges.
Okay.

If there was any minor involved or any minor in danger, I'm still waiting for the charges. Yeah, where are they?

And I know as parents, I'd be the, I'd be, if it was my kid, oh, we're we're going all in. I'm gonna well, and also, we didn't do anything illegal, so but yeah, say what you will about it.

Um, but yeah, I wanted to make sure because I was like, I was like, listen, this is a rare opportunity. We get a yeah, what else you got, Ray? Yeah, laying out.

Oh, well, lamb. Uh, yeah, I had that.
Um, what else were people saying? Why involve, because remember when we were having um the discussion on TikTok or on my live, you and I.

And I mean, I don't remember exactly, but yeah, refreshment. I, to be honest, my memory is like horrible.
So, lies coming up. Yeah, but there was a question

about your niece because you were talking about the story about how your niece, you'd gotten like your niece to try to add Carly

on social media. Yes.
Or whatever.

A lot of people were questioning why involve your niece in adding Carly in the, like, putting Carly in that position?

Interesting because I feel like for my niece, as far as I was like, you know, I don't want to add her personally because I don't want her. And actually, Lex was the one that was like, I will.
Yeah.

She knows who I am. Like who I, if she, you know, if she remembers her.
As far as her profile is not as,

you know,

just like say our names. Like, what was the intent, I guess? The intent was to see if.

My niece could contact Carly and verify anything. Okay.
Because I think peer-to-peer, I'm not going to talk about it, you know, but but but Carly is around the same age.

I, you know, because that was like a lot of what was circling was, well, you're trying to get your niece to add Carly so that way you guys can stalk her. Oh, well, okay, listen.
Okay, okay.

Did I try to get my niece to do it? No, my niece brought up to me and I said, well, absolutely.

If she's, if she'll accept you and your account's not like no big as ours and, you know, don't want to get Carly in trouble if that was what was happening.

Yeah, of course. Yeah, for sure.
Try to connect. And if you do connect, you're a peer of hers, also a biological cousin.
So maybe there's a,

uh maybe there's an access there that could you could verify any of this crazy shit okay that we're getting and it was i think that was more a part of our vetting process that that was available to us i said hey let's do it right hey present

so like i don't want you to follow uh carly ask her a bunch of questions and yeah that's no that's crazy um but yeah my niece offered i said yeah go for it and i figured if um and nothing ever came of it why not even because we're not fucking psychopaths being like push it in like hey lex message her to this

no it was simply like Lex was like I'll add her and we were like well you're her cousin if you want to add her and she adds you back then that is what it is

and nothing ever went from that like I know Lex messaged her one time you know like hey I don't know if you marry me or whatever and um Carly read it and she didn't respond and that's all it was well no Lex did she even read it Oh, no, I thought she did.

No, she just kind of sent it. It said delivered and that and that was it.
Okay.

But like I said, I was okay with that because I'm like, whatever, dude, because I also, because someone was like, oh, if you knew about all of her social media accounts that she had, why don't you reach out yourself?

Why the hell would I do that? I would never reach out myself because I would never want to jeopardize that freedom that she has that I didn't know if she had permission to have. Right.

In case she was doing a real rebellious thing, like my mom said, I can't Instagram, but I'm going to have an Instagram.

I'm not going to go ruin it with my blue check mark DM that could, you know, I just didn't want to risk it. Um, so yeah, that's the reason why uh my niece, you know, reached out to her.
The last

question

is about um Carly's singing, right?

Beautiful, she sings beautifully. I've, you know, I've been sent her videos, never asked.

Um,

and I was like, wow, like, she's, you know, such a beautiful young lady, right? And you guys had mentioned this was the way that you guys were able to hear her sing, right? On Sundays. Um,

how

did you guys find this?

And

how did it feel when the world kind of in a sense took that took took yeah you found it well I actually found because someone um from her community reached out to me on an Instagram message which I don't know it's so weird because we get so many thousands of message requests right yeah and I don't know why this one for some reason I clicked on it was just crazy

but I did and she said

I'm so sorry for what's happening to you. I just want you to know that she is beautiful.
She sings amazing.

And if you didn't know, I wanted, she said in verbatim, it feels wrong for me to be able to witness this and you not be able to witness this because it's so beautiful.

And I was like, holy shit, what is this? And then it was a YouTube clip. And I was like, I didn't know, I didn't know what the hell it was.
And then I clicked on it and it was her singing worship.

And I was like, holy shit. And then I literally was like, oh my God.
Like, I kept myself. I said, thank you so much.
No idea what you've done for me. I'm like, oh my God.
How long ago was this?

Oh, this was a long time ago. Yeah, a while ago.
So I was watching her like a lot. You know, I watched every Sunday.
Right. And not every, she didn't always perform every Sunday.

So I sit there and wait. But it was like the whole thing, yeah, I'm like, oh, she ain't doing it's that other brown-haired girl, whatever.

Shut it off, you know, I don't care about anything else, but um, yeah, and so I was super excited because that, and that was when I first told Kay, I said, Oh my god, like, here she is singing, and he sent it to me, and it took me a while to watch it because I was, yeah, it brings up a lot of emotion for me, yeah.

Um, and so you know, we kept that to ourselves, so we didn't blast it all over the internet, we didn't say anything, but every once in a while, some Sundays, we we would watch her sing, you know, and I and it's it's just because it's she's beautiful at it you know and we love to watch her in that and she looks so happy and and we also didn't feel like it was anything wrong because it was a public something that they had youtube yeah and and like and i and even the woman who wrote me or whatever that's in the community she said that they you know they all know this is a televised in the sermon it's encouraged please share this with everyone and let everyone tune in everyone tune into the church so i didn't feel like it was violating anything right especially if i wasn't saying anything about it i'm just like watching quietly on a Sunday on a coffee.

You know what I mean?

So

that was the first time that we ever got to actually see her, like physically in like a long time.

And I think for us, it was special too, because there's been years, like, you know, knowing that she does different things, like singing.

And, you know, I, you know, and I've asked in the past, like, I've asked her parents, like, I would love, you know, to see a video of her singing if you could send me a video of her singing.

And, you know, like, they would never send me things or just ignore my text messages and stuff like that.

And so, it um, to see her sing and her do it so beautifully, and it was just something special. Yeah, you know, it was a different form of connection to her, like just hearing

kept intimate to herself. Yeah, well, I guess to piggyback off that, um, I'm sorry, there is one more question.
Um,

when you guys aired your last episode, right? In the last episode, it was Carly singing. Yeah.
And And you got a lot of criticism because you had asked, can I just watch this privately, right?

And then watch it filmed. And a lot of your viewers were upset because they wanted to see the raw emotion.
They wanted to be able to also hear Carly sing and what she had to say. Yeah.

I think for me, you know, in that moment, it was,

sit down. Dr.
Drew wants to talk to you. Cool.
He's got an update. Cool.
And, you you know, he brought it up like, hey, we have it. I want to play it for you right now.
I stopped him in that moment.

He said play it because we didn't know what it was at this point. Yeah.
Like, oh, I have it. I have it for you.
And I want to play it right now.

And I stopped him at that moment because you have to remember, like, people, you might watch me on TV, but this is my real life. These are my real feelings and my real emotions.

I have three other girls upstairs at that moment. And just a week prior to that.
I watched her singing for the first time because Tyler sent it to me and I sat on it. That was the YouTube video.
Yeah.

Yeah. I didn't sent it to her for a while.
Yeah. And I just remember you saying that she was like really emotional.
Like, no, it was. Yeah.
So, you know, a week prior to us sitting down with Dr.

Drew saying this, I watched it and I had it brought up so many emotions for me. PTSD, like I was literally feeling all these feelings and emotions.

And if people, if you don't understand PTSD, you won't understand. But it's like it puts you right in the spot where you were and you just feel all these intense feelings and emotions.

And I was super wrecked, like horrible mental health day, just super emotional, couldn't stop crying, like all the things. So then I, you know, whatever I process that, I get better, whatever.

And then a week later, I sit down and Dr. Drew says, I want to play it for you right now.
I was like, whoa, hold up. I have three girls upstairs.

Like, I don't know how this is going to affect me emotionally.

It's beautiful and I love it and I appreciate it and I hold on to those, but it's hard sometimes and you don't know how it's going to hit you.

And so I was like, I want to be able to process it first because I can't just be a fucking wreck and I have to be a mom too, you know, like I don't know it's it was just very intense and I wasn't expecting it.

So I was like whoa whoa whoa

Can I please listen to it and process my feelings and emotions first and then absolutely I will play it I will play it and and then you know we just got to talking about it more and more and then come to find out they were like well you can't have it unless you listen to it on TV.

They're not going to let you have it at all.

And I was like, wow, well, if she really wanted me to have this gift and then you're not going to give it to me, like that hurt my heart again, you know, on top of that.

And

the point I was trying to get to is that,

gosh, damn it. Well, I think it's important to note that the first time you ever heard her sing was devastating.
So I think it was important to

create the agency for yourself.

Right. But then, as we talked about it more and more, then my mind kind of got into like, does she want me to play it on national television? Does Carly herself want me to?

Because there's no communication at this point. There's no nothing.

And so I remember telling our executive, I looked right at him and I said, if you get her on the phone right now after I listen to it and you pro and I process it or whatever, I said, if you get her on the phone right now and she says she wants it played and I hear her say it, I will blast it all over for her.

Yeah, because we even told Larry, like, she can say it to you. I just need confirmation.
Like, listen, just get on the phone, confirm to you, executive producer, and then I will

do this. Yeah.
It wasn't like Kate was like, let me talk to her. Let me talk to to her.
Brennan and Teresa do have communication with production, right? Yeah, okay.

That's how they set this whole thing up. And I think people don't understand.
Originally, this was supposed to be a

behind-the-scenes.

They planned on going to her house, filming her, going to like having her family time, like literally going and filming her whole life and the day and the life of them.

And when that didn't happen,

they compromised on this song idea. And so they were talking to production the whole time without us even knowing it, which I thought was really.

We thought it was ironic that you have us blocked and you won't talk to us about the situation, but you're willing to talk to executive producers and set up a whole thing without, it just felt really

bombarded, it felt trappy, it felt weird. If the vibes fell off, I don't know.
Yeah, and so then that part sucked when I was like, just let me process it first.

And then coming to find out, I was like, nope, you can't have it unless you listen to it right now. And I was like, what?

You're like, oh.

It felt like it felt kind of like a spit in the face. And I was like, and, but then I remember, you know, somebody, Tyler said, sent me some video of something about like how

adopts, some adoptive parents just won't ever understand. What was it?

Because they have never really like, like at given birth, or what was that thing you sent me where it was like they never fully understand the feelings.

Well, they can't fully understand a birth mom because they've never been a birth mom. Like if they're not a bad person, which means they never birthed their,

so you can't understand

the feelings and the emotions and the hardships. Because I guess when MTV went back to them, I guess their kind of reaction was like, well, why would it be hard?

And I'm like, and to me, being a birth mom, I'm like, how can you not own it? How old if you've never been through it, then you wouldn't understand how it can be hard. Right.

Like, it brings up things, and I can't explain it. It's just, and like I said, it's like something can mean two things at the same time.

It can be beautiful and magical and mean so fucking much to me, but also super hard and sad at the same time. Yeah.

And I think it's because it brings up the emotions of like, wow, she's so beautiful and she's so talented and she's so great, but I'm missing out on that person.

I'm missing out on this beautiful girl that's about to be a woman. Like, you know, it brings, it's just.
Especially when we've asked for years to get any kind of her

singing, playing a violin or any instruments, and it was always met with resistance and no. And so, yeah,

I think one thing people don't understand, they also don't understand that backside of production either. Doing our whole reality TV show is different.
We have

things behind the scenes and them having us come downstairs thinking it was going to be a quick little update from Dr. Drew, and let alone it's not a quick little update, it's a whole thing.

And it was like, I think it's interesting though, that people are so mad that all Kay asked for was one moment off camera. When I've literally, I've shared everything.

She's shared every she's opened her legs and pushed kids out on national TV. She's given her all to you.
Like literally, and I'm talking like audience members, production. Yeah.

This woman has given her all to you. Give her three minutes of agency, of control, of being able to process something.
Yeah.

And then she's willing to go out and do it how everyone else wants it to be done. The fact that she gets so much hate for, she didn't refuse to listen to it.
She didn't not accept it.

She just said, I just need a minute to process it first. And it was like that, meeting that with so much hate because you feel entitled to watch raw emotion.

I don't, does that make

it? No, no, I like I'm like, people are looking at it from the wrong angle. Well, well, we want to see the raw emotion.
Well, this is my real life. Yeah.

And if you believe after all this years of being vulnerable, getting criticized and heavily hated, whatever, that you're entitled to see this raw emotion is bullshit. And

you don't deserve it. Sorry.
You know, so I just thought that was really interesting how, you know, you got so much, she got so much hate for it.

It didn't make any sense to me, especially when she's what I mean.

Like, you know, if you're not a first parent order, you're never going to understand unless you fit, unless you go through with it and go, you know, you're not going to understand.

And the reason why Teresa was like, you know, the reason why she was like, oh, I don't, I can't imagine why this would be so hard. That's the reason why.
Because you've never done it.

So I don't expect you to understand this. I do expect you to have a little bit of sympathy and empathy and compassion and try to understand.
It's like, let's let's send her to my house for six months.

I'm going to cut off contact completely. You're not going to know shit about her, nothing.
And then I'm going to send you a video of her. You're going to get emotional because her mother.
Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like, so, yeah, because you've never been through it. You don't understand.
Yeah. And that's it.

That's why.

Well, those were all the questions

on my end.

Because we got some questions for you, right? Oh, no. Yes.

I know it's kind of weird to be in the hot seat. Is it?

But I thought it was important. I wanted to, like, this is important.
It is because there was like so much

like hate and so many like, shame on you, shame on you for not shaming them. And I was like, it's ridiculous.
Double down on shame, shame, like stupid.

You know, like, I'm not, I'm not a judge and a jury. Like, whatever they want me to be.
They want you to be, though. They want me to be angry because they're angry.
And

I. I just, I can't.
Sorry. Yeah.
I just can't.

Well, I respect you for maintaining your moral integrity with it because I think a lot of people, especially in this creating on TikTok space, they can get lost in it.

And they can get, you know what I mean? So, yeah, I just feel like that. I just want to give you the opportunity.

Put us in the hot seat.

Now I want to be like, okay, Ray,

how many siblings do you have? Where are you raised? Give a little bit of a whoop background on who you are.

Yep.

Stop. Turn around on you.
No. Pucker at the bubble.
So

I was raised in California. It's a small town in California.
Um,

agricultural,

nothing there. Farmer.
Okay. Farming.
Farming. Nothing there.
Um, I have seven siblings. Wow.
So I have uh wait, so there's eight of you all together? Eight all together. Okay.

So on my dad, it's uh me,

my

my brother, my twin brothers, and my little sister.

And then on my mom's side, it's me, me, my two sisters, and my little brother.

And so, and I'm the oldest. Wow.
Oh, damn. Yeah.
So my, my, my parents

got together. So my dad was 21, but they were married when they, when they had me, right?

Um, so they were still very young. Um, ended up having me.
I don't really know too much of a story. It's unfortunate because my mom's gone.

And so all my mom ever told me, my, she she never bashed my dad. Like, she never did any of those things.
Um, she was just like, you know, I really loved your dad. Like, I was really in love with him.

And, you know, we tried to have kids and we had a lot of miscarriages. My name means queen.
My name is Reina. Fuck you.
Yeah, there you go. My name is Reyna.
My name means queen in Spanish.

And she was like, I just, you know, you're, you were the queen. You were the, the, you made it.
Yeah. Right.

And so, um,

so they had me, they didn't work out. And then when they were in the process of getting divorced and splitting custody, my dad got full custody because my mom didn't show up to court.

My grandpa was there. My mom's dad was there.
And I, I loved him to pieces, but, um, he was there, but the judge was like, well, it's better for her to live with her parent.

And so they gave custody to my dad, but my dad never raised me. My grandparents raised me.
Oh, so your dad had custody, but you lived in the grandparents' home, like with your grandparents. Right.

Yeah. Why did dad not raise? I don't understand.
I don't know. He didn't raise any of his kids.
Oh, really? Yeah. So he just wanted the custody, and then that was.

My assumption is that he didn't want to deal with child support or whatever. Maybe.
Okay. Right.

Listen, maybe he thought, like, well, I don't want to give custody back to her mom because maybe if she gets better or whatever, she could take her again and maybe get back into drugs again.

Like, who knows?

I don't know.

But the fact that he got custody of me and then

never raised me. Yeah.
Right. Literally.

And your mom didn't try coming, like.

She would come to visit. So for her.
Mom ever tried fighting again for you? No, because she was an addict. Yes,

she was an addict and stayed an addict and died an addict.

My mom

was

kind.

Like, my mom was kind. And

it's really sad because my mom was abandoned by her mom as a child you know my my grandma was white my grandpa was black right back in those days

couldn't have those two mixed right and so my mom was raised primarily with my grandfather

and um

so

she had a lot of demons that she had to try to fight you know and and

i don't excuse it i but i do think that had she had more resources, I think if therapy was a natural thing back then, I think she could have gotten the help that she needed.

She tried to get better multiple times, but it just never happened for her.

So how old were you when she passed?

I

was

completing my first anniversary. So she passed away about five years ago.
Oh, okay. So this was, I mean, it's relatively recent.
Yeah, she passed away around COVID. Oh, wow.
Okay.

So growing up, though, at your grandparents' house, you didn't see her a lot, obviously. No, she would come every once in a while.

Anytime that she came to the door, my nana always let her say hi. She was never allowed in, but I was allowed to go and say hi to her and stuff like that.
So that was never a problem.

And then she and my grandpa actually had like a good co-parenting in a sense, because if my grandpa wanted to have me for the summer for a couple of weeks, she was always like, yeah, go ahead.

And he was my favorite person. And he passed away when I was 18.
So

it was, it just totally sucked. But,

you know,

but so she would come, but she would try to come and visit. She did.
She did come and try to visit

when she was well, you know.

But we also lived in the same like area. So

when my

siblings, when she and my siblings had lived in another town, it was like 30 minutes away,

she was, she wasn't great, but she was okay yeah and around that time was when and i was older i was about

i want to say i was maybe 20 and i would visit her often and be able to talk to her sometimes i don't like i said my memory is horrible yeah so i don't remember a lot of those conversations

but that's also because my mom didn't want to relive her past you know okay so she didn't want to talk about it much yeah and i didn't blame her yeah you know

um

But when she did, all she did was just have kind words for people.

You know, so you remember being kind. That's

the beautiful.

I mean, despite the, you know, obviously the trauma that comes with being a child of an addict, you did have that, and you still remain, you, you keep that image of her that she was kind, which is really important.

Yeah, well, no, my, like, literally, my mom was on the streets and willing to give the clothes on her back. Like, that was the person that she was.

You know, that's how I choose to remember her because that's all that I have of her. Wow.
Well, I think it's a testament to your character as far as how you present yourself even today.

I mean, when you think about it, addict or not, homeless people or not. I mean, if they're willing to, you know, not have a house and also give us the clothes off their back.

I mean, everything, everyone can live. With that.
I mean, that is, that is an amazing way to treat people. It's an amazing way to go through life.

Did your mom and your dad just completely stop talking to each other altogether? Yeah, they just completely stopped. Okay, so

yeah. It was weird is like my mom never even got rid of her married last name.
Like she stayed. Yeah.
Like she's crazy. Yeah.

Like she told me, like, I remember her telling me, like, I'm always going to love your dad. Like, I'm always going to be in love with your dad, you know.

And I just thought it was weird because I was like, why? Like,

you know, but

she was like, I.

I loved your dad. I'm always going to love your dad.
And, you know, so you never heard her talk bad about your dad? Never. Okay.
Well, that's, that's, yeah, true. I think that's true.

Did your dad come in and out a lot when you were being raised?

Yeah, so when I was being raised, my dad would come for like a little bit, like surf on the couch or stay in the spare bed, and then he would leave or like he had gotten married. And um,

so it was after me and after my, um, after my brother, he had met his ex-wife, they had twins, and

you know, he was married not long, he was married like a cup, cup, a couple years and then ended up getting divorced and whatever. But even then, it was just always back and forth.

And my dad always gave me like empty promises, you know, like, oh, I'm always, I'm going to come. I'm going to take care of you.
I'm going to raise you.

And for me, it was always a hope of, oh, like maybe this is the time. Like maybe he's going to.
And it just never happened. And it was the same with my mom too.
Like, I'd be,

I was actually having this discussion with my sisters the other day because I was like, you know, I remember being a little girl and looking at the stars like from my bedroom and just being like, oh, I wonder if my mom is looking at the stars like I'm looking at the stars.

I wonder if that's like

Ray. Like that's sad.
You know, I love her. But you know, like, but, and I'm, I'm so sad for that little girl because that little girl wanted to be loved.
And I was a very affectionate little girl.

I'm, I was very emotional still.

And, you know, all I wanted was just to feel loved. Yeah.
And I never felt loved. Were your grandparents good at making you feel loved? No.

I love my Nana. Like, I love her.
That is my mom to me. Like, she raised me and she loved me the best way that she could love me.

She was just, she was very tough.

Very tough.

But every once in a while, like I remember, I'd I'd be like, no, no, I'm going to give you a hug. And she'd be like, no.
And I would still go hug her anyway. She would say no.
She would say no.

She'd be like, no.

And

I would go in anyway. Yes.

And I would like go in and hug her. And she'd be like, okay, you know, like, okay.
And then, and then that was it.

And she, she tried. And even now, like, as an adult, she's in her 90s.
And I just recently went to go visit her. And, you know, she's so much more affectionate

Now, oh,

yeah.

And she and I have had so many discussions about me growing up and how I felt about stuff because I never was able to have those discussions.

And as an adult, I just was like, No, I'm standing firm on how I feel and how you made me feel. Yeah.
And she apologized, which is never. She apologized.
And, you know, and she just has

all of this love to give. And I think it's because maybe she just wasn't loved to.
Right.

You just didn't know how to show it and stuff like that.

Yeah,

when you're not given love, how do you know how to? But for whatever reason, I just had the instinct. I was.
Yeah, you're like, I want to hug. I want to hug.
Yeah.

Come hug me. Like, hold me.
Like, show me that you love me. Like, that's all I wanted out of you.
Did you find that desire to be loved and have that affection?

Did you find that to have any effect on your relationships growing up? Like, like girlfriends, boyfriend, whatever. I don't know what your experience was.
Yeah. Yeah.

So

I'll tell you guys, um,

like, so growing up, I had a crush on a boy and I had a crush on a girl. And I was like, I don't know what these are.
How old are you? Oh, how old was I? I was like seven. Okay.
So, yeah.

I was like seven. Okay.
There was a girl who was like a huge bully. And for whatever reason, I was like, she's so pretty.
You know, like,

and you know how they would say, like, oh, like, if they bully you, it's because they like you. I was like, maybe she likes me.
Right. You know, I'll still try to be her friend anyway.

And as I got older, I was like, God, she's such a bitch. But I, you know,

I just, and as I got older, so I was raised very old school, right? Cause I was raised with people that were born in like the 20s and 30s. Mm-hmm.

And I was raised Catholic. And so you can't be gay.
Right.

You can't.

There was no way in hell. Like, I wasn't allowed to date anyone that was of the opposite or of the same sex.
and I wasn't allowed to date anyone that was a person of color. What?

How does that work? Because

see, growing up, to them, it was you're not black. You're Mexican.
Okay.

Which is not true. I'm white.
I'm black and I'm Mexican. Right.

But interesting, though, how does it almost, what, being Mexican is better than being

black

from their viewpoint was bad, right? Because like I said, she was raised in the 30s.

And when you went to school, they segregated you

from white kids. And so when you are mixing with black kids, well, now I'm here because of you.

Right. It starts, it's like a, you don't realize it, but it's like this little hatred, which is still kind of funny because my aunt is like loves Denzel.
But but do you know what I'm saying? Like she,

it was like,

yeah, she didn't hate black people,

but she thought it was easier for me

to say that I was Mexican because it would make an easier life for me. Interesting, if that makes sense, yeah, which is hard because I was raised in a community that is predominantly white, right?

So that's already not easy, yeah. Because I'm going to a private school, and I, and by the way, no, it's not because we were rich, it was because my nana worked for the school.

Oh, okay, so I got to go because she was working there, but it was a predominantly white school,

mixed with a few Mexicans,

no black people.

I remember there was like one black girl when I was like in the third grade, and I was like, oh, people, like, you know,

right, right. But then she didn't last long.
She was, she was gone. And so,

yes, I grew up with my black side of the family too,

but it just wasn't the same. Right.
And so it's growing up, it was you can't bring home a girl and you can't bring home a black person because your life is going to be harder.

So

I dated

boys because that's what I was raised to do.

On the side, I was hooking up with girls. Right.

Oh, wow. Okay.
So you're so you're actually. You're having to hide that that part.
Yeah, you're like, you're living the duality of the closet, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, yeah.

And it was, it was tough, but going back to our original discussion, it was hard. Relationships were hard because I was searching for love

and I wasn't being loved. I was being physically abused, mentally abused, verbally abused.
And I thought,

this is what I deserve, right? This is love. This is what I deserve because this is what love is

and it took me

it

took me until I met my wife to understand

what love was

because my wife

I would I would ask for permit or I would say I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry and she was like why

stop like

yeah you don't sorry for what you know or I she would things for me and I was like oh okay or I would ask for permission and she's like why the fuck you asking me girl

do you you know or

worrying about pleasing and she was like at that point she was like you need to see a therapist

like you know you you need to so did she inspire you to go to therapy she did wow yeah because she was like this is not healthy. Like you are loved, you know, you are loved.

I do love you, you You know, you're this, and she tells me, like, you're this amazing person. I love you.
I love who you are. I love how you are.
Otherwise, I wouldn't have married you. Right.

But you have a hard time accepting it. But you have a hard time accepting it.
Yeah. Right.
And so I saw like three

therapists until I saw my now therapist because I was like, listen, girl, I need someone who's going to give it to me straight up.

Don't beat around the bush.

Don't tell me what you think I want to hear. Be straight up.
And she is, and I love her for it.

And she has helped me be able to heal the little girl in me. Yeah.

By,

and it sounds weird because she's like, I know this is going to sound weird. It always sounds weird when you first hear it.
She was like, but when that little girl in you, right?

Because no matter what, you still have that

little person.

She was like that little girl in you. And when she's feeling anxious or when she's like scared, it's okay to kind of talk to yourself.
Talk to her. Yeah.
And her a hug. Yeah.
Give her a hug.

Yeah, give her a hug. Give her a hug.
No, I remember when I first heard that, when I was going to therapy, and I was like, that is the most fucking woo shit I've ever heard in my life.

Some crazy shit. Right.
But then when you like dig into and you really learn about how your inner child and how it can affect you in your adult life and the things that you do, and it's like, oh shit.

Well, that's kind of why I always say, I'm like, dude, us adults are really just children pretending, growing up in bodies to pretending to be adults, how we think adults should act.

But really inside, we're all, our inner child is always inside operating the system. You know, it is.
You can't control it. And even now, like, even to this day, there's still times where, like,

my brain is like, well, no, you, you have to do it this way because if you don't do it this way, and I have to take a moment, like I have to take a step back and be like,

I don't have to do it right now.

I have to get it done. We don't have to get it done right now.
Yeah.

You know, and it was mainly because like growing up, my nana was like, it's got to get done. It's got to get done.
Come on, what are you doing? It's got to get done.

And so I'm used to, oh my my God, I have to, you know, I have to get it done. I have to, or I'm going to get in trouble or whatever.
And so now, as an adult, it's, you can get it done.

You will get it done. Do you have a hard time pausing?

Being busy? Like, cause I think, I think our generation actually is a problem where we glamorize hustle culture.

We glamorize side hustles and being constantly busy and having three jobs, two jobs, whatever, and this business ventures and all this stuff.

And it's like, but the reality and the goal of life is to work more. I don't think so.
Yeah.

And I think that it's weird that we've become so obsessed with, like, and I think it's affecting people because how, like, you obviously felt the need to, like, I got to be going, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go.

And if I'm not, go, go, go, go. I have to sit here.
And sitting here being still and

it's, it's almost like it's triggering. Yes.
There was a moment where I sat down because I

had texted my wife and I was like, just so you know, like, I'm not doing anything today.

Even then, I still fucking did something, but it was hard

for me. I felt like I was being lazy.
I felt like I wasn't being productive. And I, it was, it's hard, you know, or even sleeping in.
Wow, some people can like sleep in. I envy it.
Me too.

God damn it. I really, I truly envy it because

I

want to be able to just be like, it's cool, you know?

And my brain won't let me. Maybe one day you will, though.
Because I feel like, you know, you're raised a certain way. So, I mean, it's not just a few years and everything changes.

It's a lifelong work of just trying to unravel all of the things that we were raised with.

And

yeah.

I just feel like, though, for you, like growing up, like, you know, okay, mom and dad are not around. Grandma, grandpa raising me, Catholic.

I'm fighting. I'm gay, but I'm not supposed to be.
Like, I mean, that whole, even just that alone is like, it's a lot. It's a lot.
Yeah. That's a lot.
And I all, so I wanted to ask,

what was it like when, did you, did you come out to your grandparents? Did you just bring home a girl one day? How did they find out?

How did your family find out, I guess I should say? So I was living in Arizona by that time.

And I am in my late 20s. So my best friend.
Oh, wow. That's the late 20s.
Yeah. Holy shit.
Okay. Wow.
So.

My best friend was like, you need to, you need to leave because I was getting very depressed. I was drinking a lot.

I was like at the bar all the time partying, coming home drunk, didn't care, did it the next day. And it was just so bad.

And at that point, I was pretty much sleeping all day, not the normal me at all. And my best friend who was stationed in Arizona,

she

came. She went literally at my door, like at my nana's door, was like, Get up and pack your bags.
Wow. Like, I'm, you're coming with me.
And I was like, yeah, but you know, I'm like, I'm not ready.

I don't give a shit. Pack your shit and let's go.
Where are you guys going? To Arizona, baby. Oh, my God.
That's crazy. What a good friend, though.
She's that's my best friend.

And so she, um,

we drove, we drove out there. And

I'm forever thankful to her for that.

Um, but

year,

I had like a full-on relationship with a girl. And

she was like way out of the closet. Right.
And I wasn't yet. And something she had told me was, like, you don't, you don't have to, we don't have to be together, right?

We don't have to be together, but I cannot be with you if you cannot be who you are.

Oh, okay. So she was, okay.
You know, like she was like, there's no rush for you. Like, right.

But I can't do this. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm, I'm comfortable with who I am.
I don't, I can't be a secret. I've, I've been there already.
I can't go back in the closet with Jeff.

Yeah, yeah. And so

I was like, I need to tell my family because, and there wasn't any pressure. It was just more like, but it's, it's true.
I can't keep living this lie.

So I

call.

My aunt first. That's, she's my godmother.
Like, that's the person I went to with all my troubles, like,

everything.

And so, I, I called her and I told her, and she was like, look, if, and she's like,

like, she's religious, still goes to church, right?

But she was like, look, if you're still the person that we all raise you to be, if you're not hurting anyone else,

just be who you are. Right.
Then who fucking cares, right?

That's how everybody should react. Yeah, literally everybody asks.
Yeah. And I, I was scared, shitless.
And she was like, did you tell your nana yet? And I was like, no.

And she was like, well, you're going to have to tell her.

You're like, can you tell her? I don't want to tell you.

And so, but she was like, you know, just

be honest.

So I called my Nana and I tell her and she goes, oh. And I said,

okay.

And she was like,

okay, well, I got to go. And I was like, okay.
And we didn't talk for a few months. Oh, really? And I was like, oh my God, like I lost my mom.
Like, you know, like, I

was like in panic. And

three months later, she calls me. She's like, Why haven't you called me? Because I, I,

I would call, like, I, I call her every day before that, you know.

So, three months later, she goes, You haven't called me. You're like, Oh, why haven't you called me? And I was like, I thought you hated me.
Oh, I was like, You, you still want to talk to me?

She goes, Yeah, I raised you, didn't I? Oh, and I, and that was her way of saying, like, I, I love you, I love you, I accept you.

And I was just like, okay. And it's just stayed that way ever since.
Yeah. Wow.

But I think it's crazy. I mean, 20, that's a long time.

Very long time. Which I, which I, my best friend, she set up my wedding.
I mean, our whole lives. And I actually was just talking to her a couple of weeks ago.

And she was like, you know, she'll call me about problems that she's having or whatever.

And I was like, have you ever thought about the fact that you, you know, you, because she was an addict, she recovered addict, whatever.

I tried helping her get into rehab multiple times and all that kind of stuff. And I never left her socks.
I just knew. I just knew that there was more to her stuff.

And I asked her, I said, do you ever think about the fact that you spent so much of your life hiding and not only hiding, but having to kind of act to everyone else that this is how it is, that you actually lost and detached from who you really were.

So that way when it finally came crashing down, you have to accept who I am, you didn't even know who that was. And how do you operate

at that age?

I mean, because you obviously had identity by then, you know what I mean?

You thought you knew who you were. You know what I'm saying? It's a really big, big, heavy thing that I think a lot of people don't really understand how profound it is to finally do that.

You know, would I go back? No, no, right, right, right. No, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go back.
I wouldn't change anything. I wouldn't go back to dating guys for sure.

I, you don't like dick ray? Come on.

Just concern. You know, and she's like, I tried it.
I tried. I tried.

I I cried my hardest, and it's so funny because, like, my sisters, you know, they have husbands, and so, like, sometimes they'll talk about stuff, and I'm like, that's so gross, right? You know,

yo, dicks are ugly, yeah. Like, I'm when we were like gagging, like, this is

not like, and they're like, you wouldn't go back. No, you're like, talk to your other sister about it.
Yeah, so I'm like, I'll listen to the tea, right? You know, but I'm like, girl, no.

And like, but it's just so funny because I think that

it's so hard, especially for like people that are old school to understand, right?

Because they, they are like, oh, well, you know, you got with a woman because, you know, all these guys treated you bad. No, no, no.
And I'm like, that's not how that works, but okay. You know, like,

I'm not,

I can't change anyone's mentality, right? On how they think.

But I am so thankful for my family because

even though, you know, there can be hardcore judgment, they still love you and they still accept you. And

the moment that I brought my wife to meet my family, that for me was everything because they really love her and they treat her like that. That's beautiful.
And yeah, that to me is ever.

I mean, at this point, they love her more than me.

And I'm just, I'm so thankful for that. I'm so thankful for that.
Did they come to your wedding and stuff?

No. So when we got married, so we got married three months after we met.

And

my wife is very introverted and gets very nervous around like big crowds, right? So that's why when I go someplace, majority of the time it's me going by myself.

Or if she does, like, she does like truck stuff with her truck friends. Yeah.
Like the first couple. Truck stuff with her truck friends.
Well, it's true. Yeah.

But like when she first met them, I had to be the one to push her to go talk because she's so,

you know, but she was like i i can't like i'm so sorry like i'm sure that you want to have like a wedding and whatever and i was like i don't care about that stuff i was like plus my mexican family is probably going to want mariachas and i sure as shit don't want to listen to that so yeah i was like it's we're good so when we got married my father-in-law my sister-in-law My best friend, the one that forced me to go to Arizona, and my great aunt.

So my grandpa's sister showed up. Oh, wow.
Yeah. So they all came with it.
Yeah. Yeah.
And that was important to me. You know, it was important.

One of the most important things to me was like, my, my great aunt was like, you know,

your grandpa loved you. You know, and I loved my grandpa.
That was my hero. Yeah.
You know, and when he was gone, that was one of the hardest things for me.

And

she goes, I'm here because he'd be rolling in his grave, right? If, if, if I wasn't here for you, right, or somebody. Yeah.
Yeah.

And I was so thankful for that. And, you know, my best friend showing up, and she's actually getting married next month.
So

I want to know that.

But it was just, it was small. It had the people that genuinely cared.
And that was what was important to me. That's all.
You know, I love that.

If you didn't want to be there and you just, you know, probably had judgment or probably had ugly thoughts or nasty, mean thoughts, you didn't need to be there. Absolutely.
Right.

Everything for a reason. So I was happy with who was there.
Yeah, we met her, and I automatically just went to hug her. And then afterwards, I was like, I don't know if she really wanted to hug.

What was funny was she was like. She hugged me.
I went in for a hug. I didn't.
It wasn't. I was natural.
I didn't ask. And then I'm like, some people aren't.

Yeah, I always got to tell myself, some people aren't huggers. What?

And that's what was funny was because she was like, they just came up and hugged me.

She was like,

I didn't even know if they knew who I was. I was like, okay.

And she seems really cool. She really is.
And she's like, I'm sure you guys noticed, like, she's a, she was very comfortable talking, which I was surprised. No, I really like it.

But she's also very much of like an observer. Oh, yeah, so she too.
I can relate. Yeah, she's just so much of an observer.
And okay, getting to know you. Okay, that's what you're saying.

All right, cool, yeah, right. Okay, character, all right, you know.
Like, I remember texting Ray after we left. I'm like, I just totally went in with it for a fucking hug.

I'm like, so hopefully, she didn't think that was weird. She's on her way to go take a piss.
And I'm like, hey, hey, yeah, I know. I know.
I feel like I know you. It's the first time we're meeting.

Yeah. I was like, oh, you guys.
Like, yeah, like when you guys come up, I was like, they're huggers. Okay.

Yeah. Ray's like, ah.
I know. We got to work on that.
I was like, oh, shit. But yeah.

Thanks for sharing all that. Yeah.
Being vulnerable. And thanks for, you know, shaming us.
No, I'm just kidding.

Thanks for joining us, man. But if people don't know, where can people go to find you?

So I'm on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, Ray Clark. C-L-A-R-K-E.
So Clark, I actually is is from like Clark Kent, you know, from Superman.

And so, I was like, you know, I need like a little alias. And I like it.
Superman's kind of

cute. I like it.

Ray Clark. Yeah.
Yeah. I like it.
So it's not reality TV with Ray anymore. No, it's not anymore.

Cancel it. Yeah, because it was putting me in a box.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it.
Yeah. So Ray Clark.
Okay.

Awesome. Well, thanks, Ray.
You're so nice. Thank you, guys.

Yeah, we have to do this. For sure.
Yeah.

Maybe you go on your page, get more questions to grill us for, and then we'll just do a Ray Ray special episode. Ray! A Ray

Shaming Station. Yeah.
No, I'm just kidding. Break it down.
Break it down, a Ray.

I love it. All right, you guys.
Well, thanks for listening to this week's episode. Make sure you guys go check out Ray, like and follow.
Don't forget to review and like our show.

And we'll be talking to you guys next week. Bye.

This October, fear is free on Pluto TV with horror movie collections from paranormal activity, The Ring. You will die in seven days.
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Hi, I'm Adam Rappon, and this is Intrusive Thoughts, the podcast where I finally say the stuff out loud that's been living rent-free in my head for years.

From dumb decisions to awkward moments, I probably should have kept to myself, nothing's off-limits.

Yes, I'm talking about the time I lost my phone mid-flight and still haven't truly emotionally recovered from that. There might be too many sound effects.
I've been told to chill. Will I?

Unclear. But if you've ever laid awake at night cringing at something you said five years ago, congratulations, you found your people.

Intrusive Thoughts with Adam Rappon is available now wherever you get your podcasts.