Who Is Adoption Really For? Alé Cardinalle's International Adoption Experience

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Speaker 4 Okay, well, welcome back to Kate and Ty Break It Down. And this episode, we have Allie Cardanali.

Speaker 2 Okay,

Speaker 2 is it Allie?

Speaker 4 Okay, it's just Allie. Okay.

Speaker 4 And she is on TikTok, and that's how we connected originally.

Speaker 4 You are an adoptee.

Speaker 2 I am.

Speaker 4 And so, for people who don't know, like

Speaker 4 open adoption, closed adoption, how are you involved in adoption at all?

Speaker 2 Okay, well, I'll go right in. So, I am an international adoptee.
I was adopted from Brazil when I was four months old by a New Jersey Italian-American couple.

Speaker 2 And so, my adoption was completely closed, even to myself, because I was around 11 or 12 when I kind of put the pieces of my puzzle together and

Speaker 2 I asked my mom, my adoptive mom, am I adopted? And she said yes. Wow.

Speaker 4 And how did you, you just had a feeling that you were?

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I like to say it like this. My, my, I didn't have a conscious memory of it, but my body remembered, my soul remembered.

Speaker 2 And there was a few times in my childhood, my mom talks about the story that I was like in the bathtub and I just said, I'm adopted, right? And she was just frozen. Wow.

Speaker 2 But how I ultimately put the pieces together was my parents have three other daughters who are their biological children.

Speaker 2 My sister, Tonielle, is five years older than me and she has cerebral palsy, which was due to a complication at birth. So obviously we heard Tonielle's birth story all the time.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then my younger sisters are about two years younger than me, and they were conceived through IVF. Okay.
So we heard, and that was like 35 years ago. So it was like in the infancy of IVF.

Speaker 2 So that was a really exciting birth story. And then there was me, Allie, the cheese stands alone, and there was like nothing interesting or cool about how I was born.

Speaker 2 But also, there was my mom was pregnant with twins, so she talked about how her, like big her belly was and how it almost touched the, like if she stood in the doorway, it would almost touch. Um,

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 and I was like thinking and thinking, and I was like, there's no pictures of her pregnant with me, and she doesn't talk about being pregnant with me.

Speaker 2 Not only that, is I had a Brazilian passport, so I knew I was born in Brazil. Oh, weird.
And so I was, and I had to travel with a green card because

Speaker 2 another story, I didn't have automatic citizenship as an adoptee.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I was a naturalized citizen at 13 years old. But that's like the sidebar, which is a huge other issue in adoption.

Speaker 4 Yeah, because you're just doing me for the, I'm like, whoa, you're not, you're not a citizen. You get the green card.

Speaker 2 Like, what? Yeah. So, so, anyway, I had to travel with the passport and the green card.
No, no pictures, no birth story. Why were you going to Brazil if you were so pregnant?

Speaker 2 Right, right, right, right.

Speaker 2 And, but, more, I can't stress enough, more than all of those facts, like it was just a knowing.

Speaker 2 It was just a knowing.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's completely, completely intuitive. And the only way that I can explain it is it happened to my body and it happened to my soul.
And obviously, I was a newborn baby.

Speaker 2 It was pre-verbal memories, but I knew. I actually told all my friends at school before it was confirmed.
I'm like, I'm adopted. And I was so

Speaker 2 sure.

Speaker 2 And what happened was, I was like one of those kids. I like to eat lunch with the guidance counselor.

Speaker 2 I know those kids.

Speaker 2 So shout out to Dr. Pellucci.

Speaker 2 And so I was telling Dr. Pellucci, like, I'm adopted.
And he called my mom.

Speaker 2 So I guess my mom knew the question was coming.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 yeah. So my adoption, like it said, was very much closed even to myself.
Wow.

Speaker 4 So how so when obviously when you asked, like, and she said, Yeah, you are. I mean, what was it? How did you feel then?

Speaker 2 So, remember, I'm 11 or 12. Right, right.

Speaker 2 I thought I was like,

Speaker 2 now I have this cool thing to tell people.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 so, you know, I I'll never forget the day after my mom let me stay home and she took me to the mall. And like, I just got to spend the day with her.

Speaker 2 and so what was difficult was they asked me not to tell anybody

Speaker 2 yeah at 11. Yeah I was in the sixth grade so

Speaker 2 yeah

Speaker 2 and the the line that I you know that I was given is you're our daughter and it's none of anybody else's business you know

Speaker 2 that you're an adopted person and we love you like you're our own daughter and that's it End of the story.

Speaker 2 And so, what wound up happening to me was over the years, at first, I'm like a little bit thrilled because, like I told you, my siblings had like interesting things about their, how they came into the world.

Speaker 2 You have one, and now I have one too, right?

Speaker 2 But as the years went on, and I want, I felt that if I even mentioned that I was adopted or had questions about who I was and where I came from,

Speaker 2 that it would be upsetting to them, or I would be betraying them because I was their daughter, no different than their other biological children.

Speaker 2 Period, end of story. Which I will tell you that, like, in our, I never feel like the adopted one.
Like, I.

Speaker 1 That was going to be my next question. Like, with them having biological children, you never felt differently.

Speaker 2 Not at all. Not, no.
And I mean, and there's like privilege in that too, because I'm white and they're white. And

Speaker 2 I mean, they're Italian and I'm Brazilian, but I, it, it's not like I'm a different race that I stick out, you know, like a thumb, or they're all redheads, or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 Um, so I mean, and that's I just want to acknowledge that that's a huge part of it, you know.

Speaker 2 You see people who are transracially adopted, and you know, they're getting on a plane together, and I can only imagine for a kid that looks so genetically different than their family always sticking out like that.

Speaker 2 But no, I didn't.

Speaker 2 I always felt a part of.

Speaker 2 But I will say a lot of the way that I process information, the way I felt about the world, the way that I saw things, even down to like how affectionate I am, that was different.

Speaker 2 There were differences. I always felt like loved and belonging, but I also did feel very

Speaker 2 different. And I was very different.

Speaker 2 And I guess we can get into the different experience that I was having because I came into their family by adoption.

Speaker 2 So even though they loved me the same and they treated me the same, I needed to be treated differently because I had different needs, a different experience.

Speaker 2 And so I love my adoptive parents. My mom has wished me good luck today, like several times.
They are so supportive, but they didn't know what they didn't know at the time.

Speaker 2 And so, I

Speaker 2 had I had this loss and my questions answered, I don't know how things would have been different for me. And we can talk, if you'd like, about how I struggled.

Speaker 2 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 I mean, I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's kind of where the whole point of this. Right.
So, I just also want to say,

Speaker 2 for me, when I talk about my story,

Speaker 2 I get kind of nervous because, as you've seen,

Speaker 2 when we do tell our stories, we're dismissed. And one thing people like to say is, Well, I'm sorry, you had a bad experience.

Speaker 2 And I most likely had an above-average experience.

Speaker 2 My parents and my sisters, like I said, I always felt loved and a part of. My parents were able to provide me with a very privileged life.

Speaker 2 When you you think about people say, oh, you, you know, you choose adoption to give your biological child a better life. I had all the ingredients and then some of a better life, right?

Speaker 2 A great education, access to medical care.

Speaker 2 I was able to go to any college that I was able to get into if I wanted. I'm, you know, pretty well traveled.

Speaker 2 You know, people, I don't know, it always comes back to on social media like, you wouldn't have got to go to Disney World. Stupid shit like that um

Speaker 2 and so

Speaker 2 on paper I have like the dream scenario like I won the lottery but love was not enough

Speaker 2 all those opportunities and privileges were not enough to erase the foundation on which my brain developed, which was being separated from my biological mother.

Speaker 2 And so I am happy to share my story, and I think my story is important, but it's not a one-off experience. I didn't have a bad experience.

Speaker 2 And how many adoptees have to have a bad experience for the culture and society to start asking questions and caring that so many of us are having what they say is a bad experience.

Speaker 2 But in my early childhood, before I knew that I was adopted, for sure, like confirmed,

Speaker 2 I had so much trouble making friends and relating, relating to my peers.

Speaker 2 I probably

Speaker 2 had major depression as a child. I was in therapy at eight years old.
Still not talking about adoption. Right, right.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 always being

Speaker 2 almost every year, I remember being evaluated by the child study team for ADD, ADHD,

Speaker 2 mostly ADD. Like I had so much trouble staying on task, staying organizing, staying organized, finishing something

Speaker 2 through, but every year, not given any kind of diagnosis or anything.

Speaker 2 And, you know, through my teenage years and my adolescence, like it...

Speaker 2 like I was just mentally ill, like anxiety and depression, turning to emotional eating, you know, maybe problematic drinking and other, you know, experimentation.

Speaker 2 And just like risky behavior, you know.

Speaker 2 And then I started to, you know, want to talk about being adopted. And I just was so hesitant to because I didn't want to hurt my adoptive parents, my parents' feelings.

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Speaker 2 We're all out of the ordinary.

Speaker 1 But did you eventually start talking to your parents about it?

Speaker 2 So, okay, I had my

Speaker 2 trauma, it was always like run-of-the-mill adoption,

Speaker 2 I mean, anxiety and depression.

Speaker 2 And then at one point, I, you know, a relationship in my life ended, and like hindsight is, you know, 2020, but it just like it broke me.

Speaker 2 I had Caitlin, I heard you on a clip, you said like about grippy sock vacays. Me too, girl.

Speaker 2 I had, you know, in my early adulthood, a few grippy sock vacays. And just remember the beautiful, privileged, better life that my adoptive parents provided me.
And that didn't save me.

Speaker 2 And I had therapy, right? I was in therapy.

Speaker 2 And it didn't save me. And I had a wonderful therapist.
Shout out to Renee Altman, wherever you are out there, who it was in Florida, the treatment center I was in, were from New Jersey.

Speaker 2 And she had my parents fly in, and she's like, we're going to talk about this. Good.
Good. And, and it was, oh, it was the first time in my whole life

Speaker 2 that we had a conversation. My dad, and if you knew my dad, you would like my dad crying.

Speaker 2 And I like, I guess he was holding stuff in for for all of these, all of these years.

Speaker 2 And, you know, it's not like we had a couple family sessions and everything was perfect, but it was a huge difference that, like, I was afraid to even mention that I was adopting it.

Speaker 1 So it was, it set up like the path moving forward of being able to continue talking about it and working.

Speaker 2 Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 2 And it was a very like pivotal moment in the relationship I had with

Speaker 2 my parents

Speaker 2 and and you know I know a lot of teenage girls not to generalize but like what I've seen like adolescent years with our mothers can be quite volatile and I feel like mine was like I was so horrible to her

Speaker 2 and it was like just knocking heads and knocking heads and knocking heads and this was like it it just opened a door for such a softer more understanding relationship where I felt safe to, like I said, just even mention the fact like

Speaker 2 I wasn't, you know, I never lived in that womb. Exactly, right.
Right.

Speaker 4 And so that obviously kind of created a shift. Like you said, exactly.
You sense the shift in your relationship with dynamic with your mom. Exactly.

Speaker 2 Which is both of them, it sounds like. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, so let me like backtrack a little bit because a question a lot of people have is like, why the hell did they not tell you that i was adopted yeah yeah

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 their reason is

Speaker 2 that they say is that you know because they had biological children that they didn't want me to feel any different and they would never treat me any different

Speaker 2 than their my sisters Do you think they regret that decision now?

Speaker 1 Like not just raising you, always knowing that you're not going to be able to do that.

Speaker 2 They better. Right.
I'm like, do they

Speaker 1 like, do they regret, you know, have they ever said that they regret not telling you sooner or raising you just knowing?

Speaker 2 Um, I, you know, I think that if they could go back, um, that they would make different decisions.

Speaker 2 But like, it was really, yeah, it was really my dad, and that's like kind of the culture he came from. Like, Italian-American culture, like family secrets is like a thing.
Um, but also,

Speaker 2 I mean, who knows what insecurities like laid beneath the surface, but I do believe that it was genuine that they never wanted me to feel any different or that I was any different.

Speaker 2 And I think that part came from a deep place of love, though a misguided decision.

Speaker 2 And then I'm sure there's like other stuff too, right? This is all very nuanced.

Speaker 4 But you're saying, as an adoptee, though, that might not have been the best. Like, you know, their intention was pure to want you to feel like, you know, no different from your siblings.

Speaker 4 But you're saying, as an adoptee, that might be different.

Speaker 2 I was different.

Speaker 4 Yeah, you were different.

Speaker 4 So you're saying you actually, you know, if there's any adoptive parents listening, like that, like as an adoptee, it's like, well, that I wish you would have almost like I was different to acknowledge it and just to have it be right.

Speaker 2 All I like to say is we don't come into a family the same way that biological children do.

Speaker 2 We have, we all have pasts. We know that all adoption starts with loss.
We have

Speaker 2 biological family, like apart from parents, grandparents, siblings.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 1 it's different all around. It's all different.

Speaker 2 Right. And like I, like, we know now that, like, even for newborns with, you know, pre-verbal memories, we know that separating a newborn from their mother is trauma.

Speaker 2 And that trauma, you know, a lot of adoptees will say that they don't have trauma. And to that, I will say, I'm never going to tell you that you do if you don't.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 if you asked me at a certain point, do you have adoption trauma? I would have been like, that's not,

Speaker 2 there's no such thing as that. And it took me a very long time and therapy to connect all the difficulties that I was having to my adoption.
So what wound up happening, which I think is really

Speaker 2 interesting,

Speaker 2 is I was getting a mental health treatment called neurofeedback, which was like, have you heard of it? No.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but describe it for listeners.

Speaker 2 Okay. So, I mean, I'm not an expert.

Speaker 1 Well, no, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 But what you experienced, yeah.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, it starts with doing like a brain map where they put like all this gooey stuff in your hair and like a cap, and they do what they call like a brain map, their brain mapping.

Speaker 2 And they, and, and so, it's like a kind of therapy that uses like brain waves and it can be a treatment for anxiety, depression, and ADD.

Speaker 2 So, again, I have all of these symptoms of ADD, right? Like, through my childhood, through my adulthood, like always like, like,

Speaker 2 like running behind,

Speaker 2 I don't know where my keys are.

Speaker 2 But also with this

Speaker 2 anxiety and depression piece. And like I mentioned before, was never

Speaker 2 definitely diagnosed with major depression and anxiety. But anyway, so I did this neurofeedback where

Speaker 2 the guy reads my brain map and he, and I'm there for ADD, right? This was a recommendation by my therapist. And he sits me down and he goes, What happened to you? Wow.

Speaker 2 And I was like, what do you mean? He was like, your skin came back as if you were like a Vietnam veteran. Wow.
And I was like,

Speaker 4 I had a great life.

Speaker 1 But I was adopted.

Speaker 2 I was adopted. Wow.
I was adopted. And that's, you know, that was like my first step, you know, out of of the fog and realizing you know that adoption is much more complicated and

Speaker 2 we are led to understand and how old are you when this happened I was

Speaker 2 I think in my mid-20s okay okay

Speaker 2 and yeah so

Speaker 2 so that was another really really big pivotal moment, but it was just like a first step to looking things, looking at things a little bit differently.

Speaker 4 So, was that hard to like? I mean, I'm assuming if you're, I'm here for ADD and all these things, and then that's intense.

Speaker 1 I mean, that's really intense for someone to say that you have like a brain that looks like somebody of a VM bat.

Speaker 2 Yeah, like, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, it was really hard, and it was also really validating. Yeah, because

Speaker 2 through, you know, my childhood and

Speaker 2 my teenage years, and even into my early adulthood, it's like, you have

Speaker 2 everything.

Speaker 2 What the fuck is wrong with you?

Speaker 2 Why can't you get this shit together? You need therapy, you go see a therapist. You want to get another degree? Go do it.

Speaker 2 You need psychiatry, medication.

Speaker 2 And I was like, why can't you get this shit together? Why does this keep happening to you? And so it was the first time in my life where I was like, nothing is wrong with you.

Speaker 2 Something happened to you. Right.
Something happened to you and you aren't reacting in turn.

Speaker 2 And so, yes, it was hard. And yes, it was like a lot to digest, but it was also really, really validated.

Speaker 1 Well, it taught you not to hate so much on yourself. And like, why can't I get myself out of this? But no, it's not me.
It's because something happened to me. Right.

Speaker 4 Right. Which that's the trauma part.
I mean, that's what people, I think, who aren't familiar with or even want to acknowledge that adoption is trauma.

Speaker 4 I mean, that's the first, I mean, brain mapping is, I mean, that's,

Speaker 4 you can't get any more clear evidence than that.

Speaker 4 And I think that it's important for people to kind of like, you know, understand that, like, when you're saying that was a pivotal moment for you kind of like getting out of the fog.

Speaker 4 And when did you first like hear about the fog? Or when did you like? Okay.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 at that point, I kind of understood that adoption was trauma. And then a little around the same time,

Speaker 2 oh, there's so much that was happening. Okay.
Let's

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 we went from not being able to even mention that I was adopted

Speaker 2 to it being okay to talk about. And now it's been years, right?

Speaker 2 So it was around my 28th birthday, and this is going to sound judge me if you want, but

Speaker 2 my mom had this masseuse that was also a spiritual medium.

Speaker 2 Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 And so for my birthday, I asked for a gift certificate to go see her. And I was was like, maybe,

Speaker 2 maybe

Speaker 2 she'll connect me to somebody I am biologically related to on, you know, this afterlife realm.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Hey, I love that shit.

Speaker 2 I'm not judging. I'm totally into it.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 my sister, Tonya, my oldest sister,

Speaker 2 she doesn't communicate through speech. She's nonverbal, but she uses

Speaker 2 very savvy on the computer. So she communicates that way.
So she hears me and she starts laughing, I guess rightfully so, and screaming.

Speaker 2 Like she's like,

Speaker 2 I don't know how to make this a concise story, but

Speaker 2 let me just explain to you how I was adopted. I'm going to take like another turn here.
How like Lucine and Tony from New Jersey got this Brazilian baby. Yeah.
Okay. Okay.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 my sister had a lot of high needs. So they hired this woman named Anna, a Brazilian woman named Anna, to

Speaker 2 help with

Speaker 2 a nanny helper caregiver position.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 my parents were having trouble conceiving.

Speaker 2 And they were, you know, poking around adoption and nothing was like lining up.

Speaker 2 And Anna overheard, you know, some conversations and she's like, I don't want to overstep or anything, but my brother and sister-in-law are OBGYNs in Brazil.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 it's like I'll never know the whole real story. And you know, that's a piece that I've come with.
But so from what I know and what I understand,

Speaker 2 there was a patient of Anna's sister-in-law, Giasani, who lives in Brazil, who's an OBGYN in Brazil, who has this patient that is placing their child for adoption. Now,

Speaker 2 Brazil is not a country that allows international adoption.

Speaker 2 Like, I'm another cheese stands alone here because

Speaker 2 I,

Speaker 2 very active in the community, have never met another American person, like an adoptee that was adopted from I've met Brazilian adoptees, but they were adopted by Brazilian families.

Speaker 2 But anyway, so my mom flies to Brazil with like a little yellow 37 years ago, maybe the 37 years ago, with this little like word-to-word dictionary and like petitions a judge to allow her to adopt me.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 2 Yeah. My mom's a badass.

Speaker 2 I was gonna say, she had a mission, she was a yeah, yeah, um,

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 um,

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 so she shows up to Brazil with this little book, yes, and so she becomes friends with Jizani, she's staying in Ghazani's house,

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 um,

Speaker 2 and so

Speaker 2 she had to do a couple of trips and ultimately came back with my dad.

Speaker 2 And then it took four months after my birth for the adoption to actually be finalized, hiring lawyers, petitioning the judge, going back with this little tiny Portuguese to English dictionary.

Speaker 2 And so in that four months, I was living with Ghisani, the doctor,

Speaker 2 my biological mother's OBGYN. Wow.

Speaker 2 It's very

Speaker 2 different story than, you know, it's not a typical route to adoption.

Speaker 4 So the doctor was taking care of you as as a baby at his house.

Speaker 2 Or she was. She was.
Okay. Her and her husband.
Okay, her and her husband. Got it.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 For four months. That's four.

Speaker 2 Yeah, for four months. And, you know, now that I'm a mom and I see like somebody at four months old, like, whatever.
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Speaker 2 So now you have some context. So now I'm in the kitchen telling my mom, like, can you buy me this gift certificate so I can connect with my dead biological relatives?

Speaker 2 And Tonyell, my nonverbal sister, is like wailing, like screaming.

Speaker 2 And she like types out that she's friends with Anna. on Facebook.
Like you don't have to find your biological family like through.

Speaker 2 So she's like, let's send Anna a message and see if she can get you in touch with Jizani, the doctor. And maybe Jizani, it's a very small community.
Maybe she can connect you with your biological mom.

Speaker 2 So we find Anna on Facebook. We find Jizani on Facebook.
She, none of them will answer me. Oh, wow.
My mom messages them and says, it's okay. Immediately,

Speaker 2 they answer me. Like they needed her permission that me as an adult woman

Speaker 2 couldn't make this decision for myself, but that's another thing. Yeah, right, right.
Anyway, So, Josani

Speaker 2 puts it out on the like a local radio station that it, you know, my information. And if you know, and my biological mom called the

Speaker 2 radio station immediately, immediately. So, Jisan, like, I talked with Jizani and she's like, okay, I'll find her.

Speaker 2 Before I even ask, that I was like, you know, I was like, thank you for taking care of me and whatever. And she's like, I'll find her.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 we found her like very quickly which is another

Speaker 2 rare rare and I think a you know a privilege

Speaker 2 because some adoptees don't have that story I think it's a blessing yeah I like that you know instead of a privilege like I think it's a blessing that you were able to find her yeah it was a blessing it was a blessing and

Speaker 2 That's a good way to put it.

Speaker 2 Because, you know, I like to acknowledge that, first of all, sometimes in reunion, it's too late and people have passed away or

Speaker 2 they've closed the door on that part of their life and they don't want to acknowledge the adoptee. And so me being welcomed with open arms

Speaker 2 was an amazing experience for me. So

Speaker 2 I am messaging with my biological mom. It's funny because I was teaching at the time and I was teaching ESL, English as a second language.
And so a lot of my

Speaker 2 in middle school and so for whatever reasons my students like knew this was going on

Speaker 2 and so

Speaker 2 and that it was like the coolest thing ever I'm like you're so I was like I'm not gonna so I got a message from Josani that was like here's a picture of her here's her phone number here's a link to her Facebook and here's her home address and her phone number

Speaker 2 and she's like she's waiting to hear from you but it was the middle of the school day when I got this message and so I was like, I want to wait till after school.

Speaker 2 So there's like a little window in my classroom, and there was like all these little faces like in the window, like waiting for this to happen.

Speaker 2 And so I messaged her that night, and it was like using Google Translate one-to-one, you know, messages. And it was

Speaker 2 so, and the same night, it was like, this is, um, I want to say this is that I have three siblings in Brazil that always knew about me.

Speaker 4 Wow.

Speaker 2 They always knew. They didn't know I was American.
They didn't know.

Speaker 2 But I just think that's really important and something that felt

Speaker 2 really good because as an adoptee, when you think about reunion, like there is possible rejection or that people like kept you, kept the adoptee a secret. And

Speaker 2 so I just, like, that felt so good that they knew about me. So that same night, I not only met my biological

Speaker 2 mother, but also my brother and my sister and my aunts and my cousins. And everyone's messaging me in Portuguese.

Speaker 1 Was that overwhelming? It was.

Speaker 2 It really was. But it was also just like, yeah, it's like amazing.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's like amazing, but overwhelming at the same time.

Speaker 2 So we were, you know, we didn't get to like the meat and the heart of it right away.

Speaker 2 But eventually, you know, we did. And

Speaker 2 I heard my biological mother's side of the story. And

Speaker 2 she was asking me for forgiveness.

Speaker 2 And it, like, me needing to forgive her never, like, it wasn't even in my consciousness. I had nothing to forgive her for.
But she explained, you know, her circumstances.

Speaker 2 And so she, long story short, she was a live-in nanny at the time, or like a live-in housekeeper.

Speaker 2 And she had lost her parents at a young age. And so this was a way for her to shelter herself,

Speaker 2 feed herself. And so she had actually another

Speaker 2 child with a man. And that child was living with her paternal grandparents.
So the kids,

Speaker 2 my sister was living with paternal grandparents. And I guess this was like an on-and-off relationship.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 on, I guess, an off-time, I was conceived, and she was living with this family as like a live-in housekeeper. And so

Speaker 2 her

Speaker 2 boss facilitated the whole adoption. Oh, wow.
I was like, you can't stay here with a baby and you need to stay somewhere.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 yeah. And it makes me sad for her.

Speaker 2 It's devastating. Yeah.
It's devastating. And

Speaker 2 so after,

Speaker 2 you know, I was relinquished, she signed over her rights.

Speaker 2 I don't, like, I don't even know if she got to hold me or anything.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 she was

Speaker 2 very depressed after that.

Speaker 2 And her boss told her, well, like, don't, she died. Like, she's not even adopted.
She died. And for, like,

Speaker 2 so, um,

Speaker 2 so for 28 years, she like, she's like, I knew in my heart that you were alive, but she's like, I didn't, I didn't know for, for 100%

Speaker 2 sure.

Speaker 2 Um,

Speaker 2 and I don't know why this stupid lady

Speaker 2 thought that that would make things better.

Speaker 1 But, um, and it sounds like your mom, you know, your birth mom, it was literally out of desperation. They were basically like, you can't have this baby here when you have nowhere to live.

Speaker 1 And if you're going to live here,

Speaker 4 then you have to place this baby she didn't have any contact with the the the doctor when you the four months they had you like she didn't come and like that wow okay

Speaker 2 no

Speaker 2 no um

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 so when she told me that i was like i told you i was teaching at the time and it was about to be spring break and i told my parents i'm going to Brazil.

Speaker 2 Again, it's not like they were in like a huge city or anything. And, you know, it was, it would have been like a mission to get there.
But I was like, My dad was like, How are you gonna do that?

Speaker 2 And I was like, I don't know, I'll figure it out. You figured it out, you got there,

Speaker 2 jugged with a little dictionary.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and he was like, I want, I want your mom to go with you, I don't want you to go by yourself, but like completely supportive, like to a man that could not even hear that I was adopted to sending my mom.

Speaker 2 He paid for it, like he, he, like, he sent me good, rightfully so. He's good.

Speaker 2 well yeah I mean I'm glad that he did and you don't you know but um

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 my

Speaker 2 so we wound up going to Brazil and staying in Ghisani's house like the doc the doctor

Speaker 2 whoa yeah full circle yeah you're there oh my gosh but my mom so my mom kept going back and forth and Ghisani She was staying with Ghisani the whole time and

Speaker 2 Ghisani so like just to talk like talk about the economics in in Brazil a little bit Ghisani and her husband are both doctors they're OBGYNs and they were making wedding videos on the side to like make extra money wow and like I grew up with a Brazilian nanny or babysitter what housekeeper um oh you did yeah

Speaker 2 another full circle moment

Speaker 2 yeah who had to leave her son back in Brazil to get so so like

Speaker 2 what are the odds of that happening that well it I mean it's just like a story so um

Speaker 2 my story explaining that

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 2 about how my mom was a housekeeper who had to give her baby for adoption and my nanny had to let her son live with her mother back in Brazil I told that story and that's kind of how I had that was my like viral moment on TikTok telling that story and that's kind of I built my platform and my following on like

Speaker 2 it's it was a stitch It's like, what's what's classy if you're rich and trashy if you're poor?

Speaker 2 And it was like raising a child that's not biologically yours because I was raised in part by this Brazilian nanny who had to leave this behind, her child behind.

Speaker 2 But then people like have all this praise, like you're an adoptive parent, like you're so selfless, and whatever.

Speaker 2 So we fly to Brazil, it was an amazing amazing reunion.

Speaker 2 Like, very, I mean, obviously, really emotional. My biological mom, who's like, teeny, tiny, petite woman, like pulls me onto her lap and she's like looking at my fingers and looking at my toe, like

Speaker 2 I was a baby. It was so like primal, like animals.
Like, like,

Speaker 2 she wanted to see all the parts of you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 Did that feel like that didn't feel invasive to you at all?

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 wildly, no. Okay, yeah.
Wildly, like, like, I was so nervous to be, like, these are strangers. Right.
Right. And, um,

Speaker 2 but no. And, like, Brazilians, at least the Brazilians that I have encountered that are biologically related to me are so affectionate.
And I am, I am so affectionate.

Speaker 2 And it's so funny because, like, one of the things my, my. sisters that I grew up with would talk, like, I always wanted to hug them and touch them and play with their hair.
And they're like, nah.

Speaker 2 And then finally, I was like, it would be a couch like you guys are sitting on, and the whole family's like sitting on top of each other. But there's like plenty of other space.

Speaker 2 And it was just like, we don't speak the same language. I'm like teaching these

Speaker 2 elderly uncles that I'm meeting, like how to speak into the Google Translate.

Speaker 2 And,

Speaker 2 but it was, I don't know, like, it was like animals, like, in a way that it's just like, like communicating and just this knowing on it like a deeper level

Speaker 2 yeah yeah and I mean reunion

Speaker 2 you know it was all like very much like hot and heavy in the beginning like a lot of relationships are but you know

Speaker 2 the excitement wears down the newness wears you know the yeah and also like life goes on we live in different countries we have different cultures

Speaker 2 and you know I love my biological family very, very much.

Speaker 1 How long did you spend out there when you first went there for reunion?

Speaker 2 So, you know what's nuts? I'm getting like Facebook memories. It was nine years ago to the day.
Oh, wow. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Isn't that wild?

Speaker 2 Isn't that wild?

Speaker 2 I spent about a week, maybe a little over a week, and then I went back by myself again

Speaker 2 in the summer

Speaker 2 because now I had like my footing and I think they weren't so afraid to send me by myself. And like we met them, um, and they were good people, and

Speaker 2 everyone, it was just very like harmonious.

Speaker 6 How did your um biological mom and your adoptive mom kind of you're tuned into auto intelligence live from auto trader where data tools and your preferences sync to make your car shopping smooth?

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Speaker 4 How did that?

Speaker 2 So they didn't actually spend too much time together, but they were because my mom was like kikiing with Giozani.

Speaker 2 Because, like I said, they were friends. And Ghisani was the only person that spoke English, too.

Speaker 2 But the first night, the initial meeting, they were just like crying in each into each other's arms and they were both like thanking each other and um

Speaker 2 uh that's beautiful though. Yeah, it was it was it was uh like a really another pivotal moment and a really like tender moment and I think healing for all of us.

Speaker 1 So have you been back to Brazil ever since ever since? No.

Speaker 2 Do you plan on going back ever? Um, I really want my biological mom to meet her grandsons.

Speaker 4 Yeah, okay, so that's a whole different, you know, adoptees, they get older and they have their own children.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so those are called second generation adoptees. Oh, wait,

Speaker 2 never heard that term before. Yeah, so my children

Speaker 2 will be second generation adoptees and adoption, you know, affects them too. Right, or just like

Speaker 2 children, my kids, yeah, yeah, but children of adoptees in general, because especially like without reunion, like they have all these questions about where they came from.

Speaker 2 Like, it's just a domino effect.

Speaker 2 So, my kids are really little. So, they

Speaker 2 have a one-year-old and an almost three-year-old. So, I mean, they don't, we haven't discussed any of this, but my biological mom didn't get to know me as a baby, and she missed that out.

Speaker 2 And I would really like it if she got the opportunity to be part of her grandson's lives. So, like, I send her pictures and stuff, but you know,

Speaker 2 it's a superficial kind of level. yeah.

Speaker 2 But uh, I would like to go back because I want to bring my sons.

Speaker 1 Would she ever be able to come to the United States with us that you think?

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 that was always

Speaker 2 something that we really wanted. Um, it's just been a lot of red tape with visas and presidencies, and yeah, um, it's just not it's much so.
I have dual citizenship

Speaker 2 because I was born there, so it's much easier and much easier for an American to go to Brazil than a Brazilian to come to America. But

Speaker 2 so we would like that to happen one day. It just

Speaker 2 hasn't. Wow.

Speaker 4 That is a crazy story.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's nuts.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's nuts.

Speaker 4 I've heard like thousands of adoptee stories, but that is,

Speaker 4 that was, that's just crazy. I can't believe that you literally walked in, you were in the same house that you were at four months old, and then you end up going back there.

Speaker 4 It's just, and then your nanny being Brazilian, it's just so.

Speaker 4 when you talk about kind of like a pivotal moments of coming out of the fog, did you ever like did anyone ever give you like pushback on searching, or did anyone like say that you were disapproving your parents?

Speaker 4 Like, you know what?

Speaker 2 So it's so funny

Speaker 2 because so many people were like, Is your mom going to be upset? Like Lucine, my mom, New Jersey mom, was like, Is she going to be upset? And my mom,

Speaker 2 she's from Brooklyn. She's like, Why would I be upset? I'm like, Sandra,

Speaker 2 she, you know, her whole

Speaker 2 thing was: you don't run out of love, right?

Speaker 2 It's not a finite resource, right?

Speaker 2 And there's, you know, she was very confident. Like, there's nothing, you can't take away her relationship with me as a as my mother.
Like, no.

Speaker 4 But I think it's interesting that society automatically goes, oh my God, what about your mom?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 I think it's really interesting, too. And

Speaker 2 when I went viral,

Speaker 2 I got like I didn't mention my adoptive family at all in the video, it was really just explaining like the irony of like leaving

Speaker 2 a person who was a live-in housekeeper to being raised by a Brazilian live-in housekeeper.

Speaker 2 People, there was a lot of, it's still like, I that like if this was years ago, and it still like goes up on the For You page. Um,

Speaker 2 unfortunately, it's not monetized, but

Speaker 2 I'm just kidding. A little bit.

Speaker 2 People continuously are like, This is so rude to your adoptive parents. How do you spit in their face like this?

Speaker 1 And they supported you. They said, Absolutely, let's go for it.
Just make sure that you're doing it safely.

Speaker 2 Like, you know, so I made a TikTok with my mom, and she was like, Well, look,

Speaker 2 she's like, I understand.

Speaker 2 You have trauma on the cellular level.

Speaker 2 That was a horrible impression. I'm sorry.
She's like, what? Upset? Why would I be upset?

Speaker 2 And, you know, I think my dad was always the more like insecure one about adoption in general. And she always said, like, he was the one that wouldn't let me tell you.
And like, it's all good now.

Speaker 2 But, but, um,

Speaker 2 you know, I hope it's okay that I share this, but I, since I started to communicate with you guys,

Speaker 2 and a lot of your clips have been coming up, older clips, which some of them

Speaker 2 are just like really emotional, like you're 16 and pregnant episode.

Speaker 2 But there was an interview you had with your biological daughter's adoptive parents, and the adoptive father says the quiet part out loud.

Speaker 2 So, like, I even recorded it on my phone because I'm like, I can't believe he said that.

Speaker 2 And he was like, We worry that, you know, our daughter will grow grow up and want a relationship with you, yeah.

Speaker 2 And at first, I was like,

Speaker 2 What a dweeb? I hate you, but then I was like, That's like he's that's just honest, and I can understand he was being so vulnerable in that moment.

Speaker 4 And I actually looking back as an adult, I appreciate him being because I think the more even adoptive parents talk about that honesty, like that's important.

Speaker 4 Like, we need to like, that's that's the reality of it.

Speaker 2 And what we would like to see going forward is potentially, like, if you're going to raise a child that's not biologically related to you, whether that's through, you know, adoption, step parent adoption, legal or guardianship, whatever it is, to address these insecurities

Speaker 2 beforehand. Right.

Speaker 2 And I mean, we're all learning, but hopefully, you know, that's why we use our voices, right, to make it better for,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 the people that are coming after us.

Speaker 2 So, you know,

Speaker 2 we get mad that, like, what do you mean that you're insecure? Of course, like, we have birth parents. What? Like, but it's just, it's just real.

Speaker 2 Yeah. You know, and that doesn't make it right.
It's not right. You got to work through that shit.

Speaker 2 Right. Right.
But to acknowledge it.

Speaker 1 But they're real fears and feelings and emotions, and those are valid. But like you said, but work through the shit.

Speaker 2 Right. Right.
And like Lucine says, my mom,

Speaker 2 like love doesn't run out.

Speaker 4 I love that because it's so true.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And he, and I think it's, it's interesting because

Speaker 4 a lot of people will kind of throw that clip back in my face by saying, um, you know, that, well, you were just being really stubborn and you were being, you know, defensive. And

Speaker 2 you were a little bit. And I was.

Speaker 4 And I, because there was a lot of stuff building up to that moment that we were, that we were talking about.

Speaker 1 There wasn't a lot of open, honest communication happening for years.

Speaker 2 For years.

Speaker 1 It was like our first, like, let's get everything out of the way.

Speaker 4 And I actually offered, I said, I want to sit down with them. I'm done with the communicating through our adoption counselor, Dawn.
I'm done.

Speaker 4 You know, I wanted just to have the, I wanted to sit across and just explain and talk.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 I think it's interesting that people are more focused on, you know, us being defensive and kind of wanting to talk versus, you know, what you just mentioned, which is what he was.

Speaker 2 Well, no, you know, the lens of which I'm looking at.

Speaker 2 But yeah, I mean, sometimes I just want to grab your lips and be like stop talking

Speaker 2 it's been a problem my whole life uh you got 80 yeah me i'm gonna say i got a lot of issues okay i mean not not today i loved everything that you said but sometimes i watch these things and i'm like

Speaker 2 i know it's been a problem my whole life that's fine

Speaker 2 you work on it in your own therapy but um

Speaker 2 but i think like my story and your story are very important and because they matter but also because

Speaker 2 you know i have my little corner of the internet that I'm talking from, and you have, you know, you're arguably the most recognizable birth parents of all time, as far as I know.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, I guess we ever looked at it that way, but yeah.

Speaker 1 And that's why, you know, I feel like for Tyler and I, we want to share all stories because not one adoption is the same at all. They are all different.
Not one looks the same.

Speaker 1 And I feel like all adoptees and all of their experiences should be told as many as we can tell.

Speaker 4 The positive, the good. Yeah,

Speaker 1 because at the end of the day, like we say all the time, adoptees are the most important and the most affected.

Speaker 1 And whatever anybody can do, even policy-wise, adoptive parent-wise, education-wise,

Speaker 1 whatever we can do just to help the adoptee at the end of the day, that's what's important to us, you know?

Speaker 4 That's kind of the reason why we even started this podcast to begin with: was like, we need to

Speaker 1 speak about all things, but also to uplift adoptees' voices.

Speaker 1 Let them speak about, you know, what did they like, what did they not like, what do they think could be different, what was special, like all of the things.

Speaker 4 Because I mean, being the birth parent side, we're told to hush, hush, be quiet. And then the most that we're

Speaker 1 using, you guys, and the adoptive parents can say whatever they want.

Speaker 4 And what we're seeing is that adoptees are also the ones saying shh, no, no, no. And then why are adoptive parents, you know, why are we, I guess, prioritizing their voice more than the right.

Speaker 2 Well, it's it is. It's real, well, because we have a $25

Speaker 2 billion adoption industry and the consumer, because it is a business, it is an industry.

Speaker 4 They hate that, but I've gotten a lot of.

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, it's just true. It is, yeah, it is true.
And

Speaker 2 it's a supply and demand business. You know, when Roe v.

Speaker 2 Wade was overturned, one of the reasons cited, like, again, the quiet part out loud was a shortage in the domestic supply of infants, as if people are owed babies. So, if you think about it,

Speaker 2 why have adoptive parents' stories and why have they always been painted in such like a heroic and saintly light is because the industry depends on that.

Speaker 4 They're the clients at the end of the day. Right, right.

Speaker 2 They're the ones that are all these agencies. Exactly.

Speaker 2 And, you know, another clip, Caitlin, that just like, oh, I cried so much was it was

Speaker 2 after you gave birth and the adoption counselor walked in and was like, it's been five hours. Like, can the adoptive parents meet the baby?

Speaker 2 And you said, you were like, not yet. You know, you said, I want to get more parents.
And I was like, fucking her.

Speaker 2 But it's like, it's like, you vulture. Like, it's been five hours.
What do you mean?

Speaker 2 Five hours. Like, that's.

Speaker 4 I've actually had their opposite reaction where they're like, well, that's a long time. And I'm like, I didn't, we didn't feel that way.

Speaker 2 I don't think we felt five hours. Somebody like you carried and loved and, you know, don't know when you get to see again.

Speaker 2 Like

Speaker 1 back off.

Speaker 1 And I think, and I think if that's one thing that I can change, like me watching it now with adult mind, like adult eyes, and I see that clip, like, obviously, if I could go back, there would have been things that I would have changed.

Speaker 1 Like, I don't think I would have had Brandon Teresa there. I think I would have spent just me tying her for the three days that we have with her because you guys have her for the rest of her life.

Speaker 2 That terrifies. That is your right and you have a revocation period too.
I'm not sure how long it was in your state, but like after you sign the papers in all 50 states in America,

Speaker 2 it's different the time length, but after you consent to adoption, you can revoke consent. Yes.
They don't.

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Speaker 2 They don't want you to spend time after you give birth.

Speaker 2 That's not coincidental.

Speaker 2 They don't want you to change your mind because, again, it is an industry.

Speaker 2 They need the product.

Speaker 4 And I also feel like it's one of those things where it's like, you know, you,

Speaker 4 you know,

Speaker 4 even if you have that thought, like,

Speaker 4 I don't want them to be with the baby too long. It's like, that's already a sign that you probably shouldn't adopt.

Speaker 1 It's too fucking bad. Go sit down.

Speaker 4 It's like you're already, you're already like, you're operating already kind of in that fear. I just feel like that.

Speaker 2 But it's also coercion on the top, on the, on the

Speaker 2 so anyway, what I wanted to say is our stories matter, and they matter because they shine a light on these systemic issues. It's not Kate and Tyler's story.
It's not Allie's story.

Speaker 2 It is, and it's also like, because this is happening,

Speaker 2 it is happening today, right now.

Speaker 2 And we need to talk about it.

Speaker 2 So it's not my bad experience, your bad experience, or whatever the fuck.

Speaker 2 Even good experiences.

Speaker 1 It's just it's happening. Things need to change.

Speaker 2 Right. Well, even in like successful adoptions like my own, where I feel like I am my, like I told you on the way here last night, my mom's like, good luck.

Speaker 2 And where I'm loved and supported, like, like I've shared with you, that doesn't, that, that didn't erase everything that I went through. Right.

Speaker 2 And also, for adoptees that say that they don't have trauma, I hope you never, I hope you never feel it.

Speaker 2 I hope, you know, and I've talked to some adoptees who are like, I never had adoption trauma either until this happened and I hit 40 and/or I have my own kids or like, and things just like break open.

Speaker 2 And I, you know, I don't think every

Speaker 2 adoptee has these effects of trauma, but I explain it like this: like, like, not everyone who smokes cigarettes is going to get cancer.

Speaker 2 But that doesn't mean that we should hand cigarettes out like candy. Right.
Right.

Speaker 2 And we want to think about protective factors for

Speaker 2 adoptees. And one of the conversations that I think we should be having, and I think your story illuminates,

Speaker 2 is what is an open adoption and who is an open adoption for? Because if you ask, like,

Speaker 2 in my opinion, as an adoptee, as a professional,

Speaker 2 as a parent,

Speaker 2 the child needs to be centered in all aspects, if external care through adoption or whatever.

Speaker 1 Yes,

Speaker 2 how open adoption, and we again we see it in your guys' circumstance.

Speaker 2 Open adoption was a bargaining chip.

Speaker 2 Even negotiating how often and what year.

Speaker 2 Like, I'm sorry, sending pictures back and forth is not going to help an adoptee

Speaker 2 move through this, and it's not going to quell adoption trauma, right? One visit a year, right?

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 2 it's not. So we need to talk about in terms of, we need to rethink.
We need to rethink all of this. But when we're talking about specifically open adoption,

Speaker 2 how can we center the child in an open adoption? Because one visit a year

Speaker 2 is not in service of the adoptee. Right.

Speaker 1 So you're saying, like, there should be more involvement. And then also when a child gets to an age, they should be able to decipher on what they want as far as like openness.
Do you think?

Speaker 2 Like the adoption. For sure.

Speaker 2 For sure.

Speaker 1 Like maybe an adoptee will say like, like, oh, I don't really want that much, or no, I want to see him like every other weekend or get together with Hollywood.

Speaker 2 Right, well, and I, and that's why, that's another reason why

Speaker 2 adoptive parents, or again,

Speaker 2 people who are raising children that are not biologically yours, you need to deal with your shit

Speaker 2 beforehand. Because I see it again and again and again.
Well, they're not safe. And I'm like, well, what does that mean? Yeah, that's

Speaker 2 it. So, what does that mean? And if they're not safe, how can you facilitate communication in a way that is safe? Yeah, right.
Because it's a possibility.

Speaker 4 There's a way to do it.

Speaker 2 Right. So

Speaker 2 we don't want to be raising children in 2025 that will one day have to come out of the fog.

Speaker 2 Right. There is no fog, right? You're allowed to talk about being adopted.
You're allowed to ask questions about why. You're allowed to have pictures hanging in your house of your biological family.

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 2 what can we do? What can

Speaker 2 the adoptive parents or legal guardians do to make

Speaker 2 in conjunction and working together with the biological parents to do a truly open adoption that is in the service of the child?

Speaker 2 Because right now, like I told you, like it was for you all, the concept of an open adoption was a bargaining chip to get this adoption pushed through.

Speaker 1 And I think with what you're saying too, I think...

Speaker 2 to end with that is like what you've been saying they need to work on their shit before they even consider to adopt exactly exactly and especially people who are adopting as a result of infertility that is a trauma in and of itself um

Speaker 2 and in that same clip that i was talking about um

Speaker 2 your daughter's adoptive mother says well there's loss on all sides of the triad you know the adoptee lost their biological parents you guys lost your daughter and she's like i've lost so much to infertility and i think that is so inappropriate in this conversation conversation.

Speaker 4 I'm really glad you say that because I know that I have a hard time starting my mouth but like in that moment when she said that I felt really like guilty for even like mentioning like oh my god I'm so sorry that

Speaker 4 and I almost felt like I felt like we did when we were 16 where I better make sure that you know that we always felt like we had to like we're last like how we feel it's about them and making sure that they're comfortable and safe and all that stuff and when she said that I felt very like very

Speaker 4 just inferior very like

Speaker 2 right I wasn't allowed to hard for me and then I've heard other people say that you know that wasn't really a time and place for her to bring up her no loss loss in the triad has nothing to do not that that's not valid right right and you know I've experienced pregnancy loss myself I mean I have two sons

Speaker 2 and but but you know people online have said to me like you'll never understand and I was like you'll never understand how much I understand.

Speaker 4 Yeah, right.

Speaker 2 And,

Speaker 2 I mean, adoptees aren't plan B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N O, P, because we hear, oh, you know, we tried to conceive for five years and then we did IUI and that didn't work.

Speaker 2 And then, and then we tried IVF and that, and that failed. And then finally, God put adoption on our hearts.
Right?

Speaker 4 Which I think as an adoptee, that kind of has to feel like, oh, I was plan Z. Like, that's.
exactly.

Speaker 2 No, it totally I mean, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 That's got to be really difficult on top of everything else.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 4 I also feel like, you know, as far as a loss goes with infertility, I'm not minimizing that. No, no, neither am I.

Speaker 2 I'm just saying that in the conversation when we're talking about loss within adoption, your infertility loss doesn't have a place in this conversation because if you're choosing adoption, I really, really, really hope that you have moved through, not that you've stopped grieving, but that you have grieved the loss because infertility is a very emotional medical issue adoption cannot heal that right i get what you're saying and so that's why i felt when that that was inappropriate in that conversation and we need to denormalize adoption as a plan B or family planning because adoption is not but should only be a last resort for a child in crisis when it is impossible for them to remain in a safe biological, a safe and available biological family.

Speaker 2 It should not be a service for whether you're infertile or you're in a same-sex couple or you're single, whatever the case may be, adoption should not exist as a service for an adult. Right.
Correct.

Speaker 2 And it does. And we, and we need to, like, when we should be appalled.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 We should be, we should be, you know, that America, the United States of America, is the only country on planet Earth with a private adoption industry.

Speaker 2 I just learned.

Speaker 4 I just learned this, that private adoption is illegal.

Speaker 4 I was like, I had no idea that like Bethany Christian Services, the agency we use, like it's illegal. They wouldn't be able to, it's not operable.
No.

Speaker 2 So like with international adoption, which it's like they're to look up the Hague Convention and Hague laws because a lot of countries have closed their doors to

Speaker 2 American adoption

Speaker 2 agencies. But yeah, it's all if they were,

Speaker 2 you know, you can adopt internationally in some cases, but that's an American company.

Speaker 2 Company.

Speaker 2 Right. Like, listen to the language industry company.

Speaker 4 Commodify. It's just all of it.
It's just really, it's kind of.

Speaker 1 Because they're literally buying and selling infants.

Speaker 2 And so I, I, we're having this conversation, and I, and, and what I get on my platform is, well, well, then what do you want? Do you want babies to like live on the street?

Speaker 1 Why does everybody say so?

Speaker 2 Or leave them in an orphanage, which, first of all, we don't have orphanages.

Speaker 2 And then, you know, I mean, we have like group homes and stuff like that, but we, there's no, like, you can't like leave the baby on the doorstep of the orphanage. Right.

Speaker 2 Well, there's safe haven laws, but that's a different thing.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 no. We want when external care, when it's not safe or possible to remain with biological families, we want the child's needs centered.
Right.

Speaker 2 And that means, like we keep saying, like adoptive and legal guardian dealing with their shit beforehand and their fragility and insecurity and expectations that they're putting on this child.

Speaker 2 Because, like I said in the beginning, raising an adoptee or a child that is not biologically related to you is not the same as raising a biological child. We're not, we can't switch us out.

Speaker 1 No, it's not the same at all.

Speaker 1 And an adoptee comes with, like, you know, exactly trauma that they can't even verbalize, emotions that they aren't understanding, and they need extra help to understand those things and safe places, safe place to talk about it, and safe people to talk about it with them.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 4 Without getting yelled at, because I noticed that, like, if you, if you get, you just get

Speaker 4 like ripped apart for even

Speaker 2 having an opinion, I think. Tyler, you and I have talked about this: that a belief system is the hardest thing to change.
And that's not my opinion.

Speaker 2 Like, there's been like research, like, even like in the face of facts, if you are indoctrinated into a belief system,

Speaker 2 even in the face of information, facts, research, people will dig their heels in.

Speaker 2 They do. And so

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 have my platform, and I have, I have, not I, I, we, we, some of the other people that you have invited to share this space with you too, and thousands that have come before me, you know, we are like putting a chip in all of this.

Speaker 2 And I get messages like, I thought you were like batshit at first, and now I'm like, really, you're hearing what you have to say, and it makes a lot of sense. And so I don't, I think the only way

Speaker 2 to really like I have a big goal and my community has a big goal and that is to reframe the way that we, as a society, as a nation, think about adoption.

Speaker 2 And I don't think we do that from yelling at each other.

Speaker 1 I think that we do it like this: that we're sitting down and we're having a conversation and saying, like, oh, yours might be different because mine's different, and yours isn't the same, and mine isn't, and sometimes agreeing to disagree, but just helping each other.

Speaker 2 Right, right. And also, I like to like even adoptees who have nothing to say, like, everything is great, and I'm so so happy for you.
That doesn't change the systemic issues in adoption.

Speaker 2 That it's an industry, right? That we don't have access to our medical information, that international adoptees don't have automatic citizenship. So, even

Speaker 2 if these things don't affect you as an adoptee or just as a human being, like we should care about that, right? Right.

Speaker 1 Like, be a decent human being, right?

Speaker 4 We should care about we should care. I mean, you're right.
We should totally care. Just because you had a good experience doesn't mean you can't acknowledge the fact that

Speaker 2 or like

Speaker 2 your neighbor's friend is adopted and they love it.

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Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, that's why it's interesting how, like, I have to, like, people are yelling at me for not having the right qualifications to advocate for adoptees or adoption reform, et cetera.

Speaker 4 And it's like, well, what makes me qualified? I mean, I can't.

Speaker 1 Right, it's like when we were all about, you know, the Black Lives Matter movement, too, you know, and all that was going on and women's rights move, you know, stuff.

Speaker 1 And nobody then was saying, sit down, you're not black, or sit down, you're not a woman. So why does it matter what I advocate for?

Speaker 1 I advocate for things that I'm passionate about and that I feel like there needs to be a change in. And it's like, so why does that matter?

Speaker 1 I'm going to advocate for whatever I feel I believe in and shit that needs to change.

Speaker 4 I've never seen anyone get mad about advocacy. It's like, how are you mad about advocacy?

Speaker 2 So, I kind of feel, I mean, not that everything's going well with like women's

Speaker 2 clearly, things aren't going well with like women's rights and ending racism and all of this stuff. But,

Speaker 2 with, but there are supporters and there are allies,

Speaker 2 adoptees, like it doesn't matter like what side of the aisle you fall on. Like, if you're a Republican, you're a Democrat, you're you're whatever, Christian atheist, whatever, yeah.
It doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 People are like, adoption is beautiful.

Speaker 2 And how dare you?

Speaker 1 And I think it's becoming more.

Speaker 1 I'm seeing more and a little bit more, though, of people, like you said, when people message you and be like, I thought you were about shit crazy, but now I'm starting to learn.

Speaker 2 I think it takes people hearing things after so much to be like and doing their own little bit of research and being like wait a minute these people are on to something absolutely and i'm starting to see a little bit of that yeah i absolutely absolutely and like i said i think i actually think tick tock has made a huge cultural impact i really really do so i take a lot of pride in being a part of that community.

Speaker 2 I mean, I have a one-year-old and a three-year-old, so it's not that easy to me. Well, you're not going to be able to do that.

Speaker 4 Yeah, because you were off TikTok for for a while, and I remember, I think I messed you. I was like, so you're not meditating.

Speaker 2 And then I saw, I was like, oh, why aren't you coming back? Like,

Speaker 2 well, that meant a lot. So, yeah, so you had messaged me in September, and I didn't come back until the band to like say goodbye to everyone.
That 16-hour vacation we took.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 But I like said, like, wanted to make a goodbye message. And I like checked, I saw.
And first of all, I didn't think it was really, I'm like, what a weird catfish thing would be to pretend to be Tyler

Speaker 2 but then and because you're not verified or you weren't at the time we're still not

Speaker 2 but then I saw you and you don't have much content on there but then you had tagged him so I was like oh wow but then I like I'm texting my friends I'm like Tyler from Chi Mom is messaging me and and

Speaker 2 and I was like but he's not gonna get back to me because it's been like like almost six months or something but you did oh yeah and I'm really and I'm really glad that you did and I'm really honored to be part of these conversations

Speaker 2 because one they're not happening as often as they should be and I'm like this has been a bottom-up grassroots

Speaker 2 effort and people are like you said they are starting to notice and we're planning seeds and you know one time I was out to dinner with my husband and a dear another adoptee and he's like one day people are gonna be like you did what when you talk about when you talk about private adoption that it's really you know and i hope it to be true that this is going to be a stain on our on our history that we're going to you can't believe it operated this way this long yeah for this long too yeah i mean this will be another like three-hour podcast but i really really encourage people to look into the history

Speaker 2 learn about georgia tan

Speaker 2 yeah learn about georgia tan um i really recommend the episode of criminal with Phoebe Judge. It has a great episode on Georgia Tan

Speaker 2 on Georgia Tan. Yeah, there's also

Speaker 2 a book like Baby Thief. Yeah, I wrote about it.

Speaker 4 I've read part of the book.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but if you want to get like a more concise version, that really is.

Speaker 2 I did a series, if you look up hashtag Georgia Tan on TikTok, I did a series on her, but I really recommend

Speaker 2 the episode of Criminal with Phoebe Judge.

Speaker 2 Also, how international adoption started in the United States through the Korean War and the saviorism there that our troops were conceiving children with these women and then we tore their country apart and then brought these kids home like, look how good we are.

Speaker 2 And that was

Speaker 2 Holt International.

Speaker 2 The Holt family was like the first, like the pioneers in adopting these Korean children. And to this day, in 2025, they're still the largest operating international adoption agency in the U.S.

Speaker 4 Wow, so I didn't know they were even still operating. Yes, oh, wow, that's crazy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 One of my cousins is an international adoptee, and she is Korean, either Korean, I think it is Korean.

Speaker 4 Yeah, well, actually, it's crazy because

Speaker 4 you were the first TikTok person that I ever saw talk about adoption. And I was like, and that you open up the floodgates for me because once I, once I hit the hashtag,

Speaker 4 you know, once I hit the hashtag, first it was adopted, and then I hit the hashtag adoptee voices, or something like that. And all of a sudden, I mean, I spent days.

Speaker 1 Oh, he was going down some black holes.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Which is good, though. That's how you learn from love

Speaker 2 to people. I mean, that's what happened to me when,

Speaker 2 so another part of me coming out of the fog, I went into reunion, but also I was getting a master's in social work, and I

Speaker 2 we had to write, it was a

Speaker 2 child attachment class I was taking.

Speaker 2 And I, you had, you could write a paper about like whatever. And my like thesis for my paper was: attachment parenting will cure,

Speaker 2 will cure adoption trauma. Oh, and whoa, wait,

Speaker 2 you're right. Whoa, wait.

Speaker 2 So, but I was like, because I understood adoption was trauma, but like, it's still beautiful, right? Like,

Speaker 2 um,

Speaker 2 and so, like, like I said, it was baby baby steps. And my professor happened to be an adoptive parent, and she, she,

Speaker 2 that's crazy. So, she heard me say all of this, and she gave me a stack of books.

Speaker 2 I've never heard a professor like give me a book. Um,

Speaker 4 that was free,

Speaker 2 right?

Speaker 2 Right, exactly. No, these were like from her personal library, like, and she,

Speaker 2 and on the top of the stack was the primal wound, and she's like, These are all great, and she was like, But go easy with this one.

Speaker 2 Oh, wow. And I mean, my black hole, like, I read that, I I was so angry.
And, like, how I was a bitch to my mom when I was a teenager. I went nuts on her.
I was so angry and cruel.

Speaker 2 And I, and I took it out all on her.

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 2 how could you not understand this? You didn't question anything. I was so like this misplaced anger because I really think in a lot of ways, adoptive parents are victims of the fog.
I know.

Speaker 2 Oh, I think that they are 100%. And they're not.

Speaker 4 They also, like, why aren't they given that book when they're coming into the doors? Why are they

Speaker 1 given the education?

Speaker 2 Trauma-informed. I mean, but the thing about my mom, who is a badass, like, it was like a toddler having a tantrum because, I mean, I'm an adult woman, but I'm like having this, like,

Speaker 2 this. heartbreaking thing happening to me and I'm kicking and screaming and thrashing at her and instead of being like

Speaker 2 you ungrateful thing you she helped like helped me and she was like there's nothing

Speaker 2 she was like there's nothing that you could say that is going to make me stop loving you and and you're safe and maybe she didn't say these things verbatim but that i felt really safe to

Speaker 2 feel your feelings of your anger yeah yeah and it was and it was it was not neat i'm not particularly proud of it but it was it was real so yeah talk about she honored you in that moment she she absolutely did and you know my my

Speaker 2 other family was offended at my behavior which i i understand um but that's a mom that's a mother yeah right so you know um

Speaker 2 i hear a lot of people you know in in my story and your story like people trying to define things like you're not this and she's not this and they're not they're not sisters and you're not the mom and whatever and what you know only an adoptee gets to decide that yeah I have two moms and then my relationship with them

Speaker 2 is very different.

Speaker 2 But adoptees get to define what things are for themselves. So much is decided for us.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And it should not be that way.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 as an adopted person, like

Speaker 2 one different decision, I could have had a completely different reality. Right.
Like, what if these other people came and adopted me first? Or

Speaker 2 I was raised with my biological family or whatever it is.

Speaker 2 And our names are decided, you know, changed, and our birth certificates are changed. And

Speaker 2 so one thing that I deeply believe is our stories are our own to tell.

Speaker 2 And what else do I believe?

Speaker 2 I lost my life. No, I think that was great.

Speaker 1 I think that was great because Ty and I always say that too. Like, yeah, the adoptee, it's always your right as an adoptee to tell your story.

Speaker 1 And nobody should speak about it for you or tell it for you because they want to say it right.

Speaker 4 Yeah, we've honestly struggled with that because we're on reality TV when we grew up. Yeah, so we had a hard time.

Speaker 1 How do we balance it? We try to go into our story versus speaking of like on our feelings, things like that.

Speaker 2 I mean, it is

Speaker 2 like a really, no, I'll tell you, I'll be really honest with you. When, like I said, all the clips are coming back and to see your daughter's relinquishment was filmed.

Speaker 2 And I think, were you even giving birth? Were they

Speaker 2 in the room when you were giving birth? Like,

Speaker 2 like, I don't know, as an adoptee, I'm like, wow, like, what?

Speaker 2 Like, these are the moments that shaped your biological daughter's entire life. And, you know, and I think also we have different sensibilities now in 2025 about children and privacy and whatever.
But

Speaker 2 within adoption, you know, people have to stop saying, even people in my community, oh, as an adoptee, I would feel this way about like

Speaker 4 speculations.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 Like you said, who are you to speak on this one's story?

Speaker 1 You can't, or how they would feel. No, speak on their feelings.

Speaker 2 No, nobody, nobody knows anyone's experience until they share it.

Speaker 2 I love that. Yeah.
Yeah. And so, like,

Speaker 2 and my community is no, no different. I see it like, oh, I would feel if this happened, I would feel this way and that way.
And I bet this person feels that way. And I just, I want to be like, shh.

Speaker 4 Speculation is really not helpful and it's also could be potentially damaging because you're

Speaker 2 someone could be reading this and so it's like why are you well I just think about like how weird it must be for your daughter to have all these people talking about her right I know like they know her right which makes it difficult like I said as birth parents who are

Speaker 2 documented it's yes I I don't mean to cut you off. I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 I also think

Speaker 2 you guys have to. You have to.
Like I said, not that I I can think of or know of I don't know any birth parents that are in your position and the way that you have us adoptees on here

Speaker 2 like you're using your platform in such an important way and and like I said your des your story deserves to be told and I think

Speaker 2 and I think your daughter's story also deserves to be protected so it's a very uh it's tricky yeah it is very tricky it is very tricky and um and that's why from moving forward, me and Kate decided, we're like, we're not talking about negatively anything about our personal adoption story.

Speaker 4 We're going to focus on just advocacy, adopte-e-voices, and just kind of that's because honestly, our whole story's out there. Watch it.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's all been out there. Our feelings are there.

Speaker 4 We can't control what was aired or what we filmed, but we can control moving forward. So this is what we're going to do.
And so that's, you know, the reason why we're even.

Speaker 1 Ali, so I want,

Speaker 1 thank you so much for coming on here and being vulnerable and sharing the ins and outs of your story and your journey. And

Speaker 1 where can people find you, your username, all that?

Speaker 2 Okay, so you can find me on TikTok at WildHeart Collective underscore.

Speaker 2 And I do have a whole, in addition to being an adoptee and living in adoptee spaces for almost a decade in community with other adoptees

Speaker 2 and having a background in education. I also, like I mentioned, have a master's in social work.

Speaker 2 And so with all that experience mixed together, I do offer services for adoptive parents, whether your adoptee is still a child or an adult.

Speaker 2 But I help adoptive parents better support the needs of their adoptee. And also, like we've mentioned a few times, like deal with the shit.
I'm here. Give me your shit.
I want to hold it.

Speaker 1 So, what's the name of it? Where is it located?

Speaker 2 So, and then also, I also have a group coaching and support group that I do with adoptees.

Speaker 2 And I am happy if anyone is doing a project that has an adoption storyline to do some consulting there to make sure that we handle that with a knowing and respect and the care that adoptees deserve.

Speaker 2 And you can find all of that on my very new and improved website, wildheartcollective.care.

Speaker 1 Oh, that's awesome. Thank you.

Speaker 2 I can't wait to see that. I can't wait to see you later.

Speaker 1 And thank you so much for joining us on today's episode, Alien.

Speaker 2 Thank you so much for inviting me.

Speaker 1 This was so fun. We will talk to you guys next week.

Speaker 2 Bye.

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