The Adoptee's Voice: Erin Calls for Reform of the Adoption System

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All right, guys.

Welcome back to Kate and Ty Break It Down.

Today, we're super excited.

Aaron.

We have our friend Aaron.

We actually have been friends on TikTok for a while now, and we talk to each other very regularly.

All the time, I feel like.

We talk talk all the time.

And so we're just so excited to have you here.

I'm so happy to be here, guys.

I'm so happy to finally get to see you in person and be here in front of you.

We always joke around like Aaron's like our adoptee mom.

That's what we call you.

I know, and I'm like, I'm like, I feel like you guys are like my kids at this point.

I'm like, I always, like, I just want to help you guys and like, you know what I mean?

You're just such good people, and I always enjoy talking to you guys so much.

So it's been really nice to get to know you guys.

Same.

Well, you're the first adoptee that we were interviewing.

So

we feel honored that you're the first one.

I feel honored to be here.

I really do.

I'm just, I'm blown away by this whole thing and being able to talk about this at this platform.

It's really, it's amazing.

Well, did you ever like, did you ever like expect talking about it on TikTok to even do anything?

No, and I honestly just started talking about it on TikTok to find the community.

Like I really didn't ever expect to become an advocate or for anybody to even like listen or care about what I had to say.

I genuinely just did it for my own personal, you know, my own personal stuff.

I just wanted to find other people that had a similar experience.

I was really just coming out of the fog myself a few years back when I started getting on TikTok.

Just a few years ago?

Yeah, it really, really.

I mean, honestly, my best friend was the one that really brought me out of the fog and started like giving me information and showing me things.

And I, you know, when I got on TikTok, I was still a little bit in the fog, I feel like.

And it's watching videos from the TikTok community, from the adoptee community, that really brought me out completely and allowed me to start advocating for other adoptees.

So, if people don't know who you are,

can you kind of tell a breakdown of like who you are, where you came from, a little bit of your your story?

Sure.

My name is Erin, and I was adopted as an infant at five days old.

My adoption story is a little bit crazy.

My birth mother had two children before me.

And when she got pregnant with me, her OBGYN basically was like, well, you already have two kids.

You're not really taking great care of them.

I really want a baby.

Why don't you just let me adopt your baby?

So she went through the entire pregnancy with the assumption that she was going to adopt, that I was going going to be adopted out to the OBGYN, the doctor that was to deliver me.

When I was born, I was born addicted to speed.

And the OBGYN's husband was like, absolutely not.

I do not want a baby that is drug addicted.

They just foresaw problems happening in the future.

So I was...

kind of just left in the wind.

They were going through the same lawyer that my adoptive parents had adopted my brother through two and a half years before.

So they basically just called the lawyer and and they said, Do you have any other adoptive parents that have gone through the process, have been approved, and are waiting for another child?

He just pulled the file, called my dad, my adopted dad, and said, Hey, we have this baby girl sitting here.

Do you want her?

My dad said, Sure.

And it's funny, he was actually supposed to give a speech overseas at a convention, and he didn't go because they were going to pick me up at the lawyer's office.

And there was a terrorist attack, and everybody that was in the row that he would have been sitting in was killed.

So

they say, you know, he always tells me that i saved his life by being born and by like just the way the circumstances happened you know it ended up saving his life so that's intense that's yeah it's brilliant wait so the lawyer office how does that work so they so you're born and the the ob-gan's husband's like no yeah and then where do you go from there you go to the next step i was in the niki because i was born addicted to drugs so i was in the niki for a while uh my records show that and then they released me the secret the lawyer secretary came and picked me up from the hospital and like how long were you with this lawyer secretary you even know I don't know I they I guess just from the time they left the hospital and they brought me to the lawyer's office and I have pictures of my adoptive mom them handing me to her in the office so they signed off like so because in order for the lawyer secretary to pick up a baby that's you know totally relevant to her they had to your mom had your bio mom had to have signed Something, right?

Yeah, I'm assuming if she according to her I actually just met her last year and according to her She gave birth and literally like within hours was like I'm leaving I could she said I couldn't even be in the hospital with you because I was so upset that

I couldn't be there she actually left she went home and had to come back because she was bleeding like they she almost bled to death when she went home so she did end up back at the hospital but I was already you know like had been taken away or wherever I was but yeah it was

That's crazy.

I mean, the part about it that really upsets me, I think, is the fact that the OBGYN was like, well, I want a baby.

I was just going to say that.

And you're a teen mom and you, you know what I mean?

You are already not doing so great with the first two that you have.

Let me just take your baby.

And like, literally, like the entire time was like giving her care, giving her money.

It was so weird to me.

Because it was coercion.

I mean,

a manipulation.

Predatory.

I mean, for an OBJYN, a professional to.

And I think back then it was, it was pretty normal for OBGYNs to offer this stuff.

Wow, because I would have been so turned off.

I would have been like, whoa, I'm never seeing you again after I leave here.

Like, that's creepy.

But then there was my birth mom who was like living in a basement in her parents' house with like no power, no heat, like two kids, like living on a floor.

And she sees this doctor who's like probably in the community and has money and has this husband and this great house.

And she's like, well, you're better, you know, this kid's probably better off with you anyway.

So like, you know what I mean?

You're offered, you're presented this situation.

Like, what are you supposed to do?

And obviously you were born addicted.

So your mom obviously struggled.

She was struggling.

I mean, and this is a good, a good place to say that many things can be true in adoption.

I can acknowledge the fact that I would not have been better off had I not been placed in an adoptive home.

If I had been raised by my birth mother, I would have had a very hard life.

I had eight siblings and they were all removed over time from my birth family.

Into foster care.

Into foster care.

Okay.

Group homes, such things.

Except for the youngest, who somehow was able to stay with my mom.

She had kind of gotten it together enough that they never removed him.

But I can acknowledge the fact that I would not have had an easy life in my birth family.

Also, while saying that I didn't have the greatest life in my adopted family either.

Like two things can be true.

Like just because you go to a wealthier family that has giving you more opportunity doesn't mean that you're still missing where you came from and people that, you know, mirror you and that you can mirror and genetically.

And you, your adoption was a closed adoption.

It was a closed adoption.

And my mom, actually, my adoptive mom actually lied to me.

And I know my dad never really said anything.

He just kind of stayed to the side.

He was a very passive human being.

But my adoptive mom always told me that my files were sealed.

I was not allowed to have any information until I was 18.

That was the law, is what I was told.

I never knew any different to question it or to ask questions about it.

I just assumed, oh, the law is that, you know, if you're a minor, you aren't allowed to have this information.

I just, that was what I thought.

She passed away not, long after I turned 18.

And it kind of just like put everything to the side.

I never, I just didn't really, like, at that point, it wasn't like, oh, I'm going to go find my birth family.

Like, I was kind of dealing with other things.

So I just never really.

like did anything with it until I got into my 30s and I was like, you know what?

I think I want to try to find my birth family.

But they did.

I mean, they lied.

They definitely did.

And how did you find out about them lying and like it not being sealed and that you could have known?

Well, they just, I mean,

my dad just handed me the file one day.

Oh, really?

Holy shit.

I was like, dad, I want to find my birth mom.

You know what I mean?

And he was like, oh, I have that file somewhere.

It's like, okay.

And he literally just handed it to me.

And then I had the information.

And I'm going through it and I'm looking at it.

And I don't think I really processed it all because as I actually just found it again, like, I don't know, whenever I had posted all that stuff about it, it was a few months back, but I don't even think I realized when I first looked at it that like the literal receipt for my adoption was in there.

Like, I could see all the costs, like what everything costs.

And like, my medical records from the hospital were in there.

Like, all of my mom's identifying information was in there.

I knew that she had given birth twice before me, that I had two siblings.

Right off by opening the file, you knew that.

Right off the bat, all that information was right there.

And so then I think, like, okay, so my mom obviously saw that.

So she knew all of these things about my birth mom.

So all the times that she would tell me stories like, oh, you know, maybe she just loved you so much that she wanted you to have a better life.

Or like, oh, you know, all these stories and all these things that she would say weren't true.

And she knew that they weren't true because she had the information in front of her.

You know what I mean?

So there was definitely a feeling of betrayal once I found out all of these things.

Well, you said 18 years old is when after she passed and then you didn't do anything till 30.

I mean, that's a whole decade.

So like what that whole decade were you just kind of like...

I was very much in the fog and I was very much of the opinion that like, oh, my parents that raised me are my parents and I don't need anything else and I don't need to know where I came from because it's not relevant and like a lot of the things that people in the fog say like they really truly don't think that it matters where they came from because they had a good life and they or they felt as though they had a good life so they don't feel the need to find you know well for people who don't know what is the fog so the for me the way i explain it is when you're a child and you're adopted everybody constantly tells you adoption is beautiful you should be grateful people saved you people wanted you They chose you.

You know, adoptive parents say things like, I grew you in my heart, or like, you were a gift from God.

And it's always put in such a positive light, adoption.

And as an adoptee, you feel that abandonment and you feel that loss and you feel that grief.

But as a kid, you're not really sure what those feelings are.

And you're told, no, no, no, not the, not that.

It's beautiful.

You should be grateful.

Everything about it is beautiful.

You were saved.

Now look at this great life that you get to have.

So that's the narrative that you choose to go with because it's easier to deal with.

And it's much easier to internalize negative feelings about grief and loss and abandonment than it is to accept them and try to talk about them, especially when a lot of adoptive parents are not willing to talk to you about them.

A lot of adoptive parents don't want to talk about the negative feelings that you have towards your adoption.

So you do internalize them.

And then as you get older, that's what we call the fog.

You end up regurgitating the narrative that...

Adoption's beautiful.

I was saved.

Adoption saves people.

People use adoption to build these beautiful families.

And that's what you're telling everybody else.

But internally, you have this like struggle where you're like, I don't know.

Like, almost feel like you're not allowed to feel that way.

Right.

You're not allowed to feel that way because it's beautiful.

And which is

sad because I feel like as parents, I would want my child to come and speak to me and not worry about how I'm going to react about things that are going to hurt you.

Like if it hurts my feelings a little bit, I'm going to keep that to myself, but we're going to process this together and figure out how I can help you with whatever you're feeling.

Like healthy parents do that for their children.

Yeah, because a lot of people don't know what the fog is and it's fear, obligation, and guilt.

And that's the, so it's like those three things are exactly what you're talking about.

Like, your fear, I'm obligated to make sure my adopted parents know that I'm, yay, I love this.

And then the guilt for even feeling internalized feelings of, I kind of don't feel right about certain things or whatever.

And it's like, you almost, I, every time I hear people explain it, it's like adoptees are almost like forced to put themselves in the on the back burner.

Like, how they, you know what I mean?

In order to make sure all the adults.

Yeah, we're responsible for their feelings.

Right, absolutely.

As an adoptee, you are 100% responsible for the adults' feelings around you.

I hate that.

I hate that.

But I mean, it just is what it is.

It's why I'm hyper-responsible now.

It's why I am the way that I am, though, is because I always felt responsible for other people's feelings.

I never wanted to say anything that was going to upset my adoptive mom, and she was super sensitive about things.

She was.

Oh, yeah, because anytime anybody would say things like, oh, you look like your mom, and I would say, oh, I'm adopted.

I can't look like my mom.

And she would go, she would launch into the, oh, I saved her from this and that, and blah, blah, blah.

And it was always like this whole thing.

But she couldn't stand it when I would correct people and say, no, I don't look like her.

It's not like, I couldn't possibly look like her.

She's not biologically my mom.

You're speaking facts.

You're not trying to say that.

Right, to me, it was, to me, like that was just common sense.

It was just me being like, no, I really don't look like her.

Like, that's a weird thing to say.

And other people just being like, oh, and then like people kind of get like uncomfortable when you say that.

You know what I mean?

So then there's that.

So then as a kid, you realize that you're making other people uncomfortable when you talk about your adoption, when you say, I don't look look like my family, and you make them feel uncomfortable.

And so, you're all of a sudden responsible for everybody else's feelings.

So, you just talk about that positive, happy experience that you have with the doctor.

Well, and plus, that's all you're taught growing up from a young kid.

That's all you're hearing, like you said, all around you.

We saved you, it's beautiful, you have to look at this great life.

So, of course, a kid that's heard that their whole life, they're gonna grow up saying those exact same things.

I feel like the amount of pressure is so unfair.

Like, that to literally be a kid didn't choose to be adopted.

Now, I have to also deal with my own identity stuff internally, not express it to anybody, and also make sure I emotionally monitor all these adults in the situation.

That is literally crazy.

All the time.

Like, you go to school and they're like, you go to school, your teacher's like, all right, it's family tree day.

And you're like, oh, well, which family do I choose?

Like, and then the teacher's like, well, the family that's raising you.

Like, and they act like you're crazy for even questioning which family to use.

Right.

And then you're like, well, what?

And then you're like, well, I don't really know where my other family is from.

And then you're sitting there and you're like, where is my other family from?

What, you know, am I Irish?

Am I Italian?

Am I this?

Am I that?

What's their last name and like you're sitting there and like i was always just so distracted when we were doing things like that when it involved like any type of talking about any type of family that like because my brain would just wander into like well i have another family somewhere else i don't know anything about them but i know that they exist you know so there's just so much confusion as a child and if you don't have a healthy outlet for that you internalize it.

And again, adoptees internalize so much.

We're just expected to do so.

And that's where the fog comes from.

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And I feel like it's almost like you said,

it's easier for adoptees to stay in the fog because it's hard to like, because once you open the door, you can't go backwards.

You can't go back into the fog.

Once you're out of it, it's a wrap.

Like, so it's almost like they hold on to it in a way to keep them like safe.

And so, yeah, and I just feel like that.

And they love to stop and tell us about.

And listen.

Yeah.

Listen, I love when people have happy adoptions.

I am the biggest, when people have good, healthy, loving families that became educated and trauma-informed and they're raising these adoptees correctly.

And they allow them in their biofamilies and they encourage them and they support them.

I love hearing good, happy adoption stories.

People always tell us, Oh, you guys don't want to hear happy adoption stories.

Yes, we do.

We just don't necessarily believe them all the time.

Yeah, right, right.

We don't necessarily believe what you're saying is accurate about your adoption because you're in the fog.

And then we're told all the time that we're being negative and that we're like, we're not, we're not allowing other adoptees to have their voice.

But it's not, we're just basically saying, like, guys,

maybe just look a little bit further into what happened to you and to like why you stopped to tell the entire internet that you don't have trauma.

Because healthy, healed people aren't going to stop on a video about adoption trauma and tell them, oh, I had a great adoption.

I don't have trauma at all.

They're just going to keep scrolling.

Right, but they get defensive.

They get defensive because

they know deep down that they have abandonment and loss and grief and they have those internalized issues that they never dealt with.

And also, if they had to have an environment that nurtured the expression of those things, then of course they're so used to keeping it inside, which is just like, I just feel like I learning the last couple of years about like how adoptees just like that has to affect everything growing up, how I make relationships work with every aspect, every aspect because you're constantly emotionally moderate, which, in my opinion, it's like a version of like you're self-betraying in order to keep everyone comfortable.

And that's always going to backfire.

That's all, that's never going to be good for you.

So it's like, and to not even believe that you have the freedom to express it is crazy because I we've gotten gotten so much backlash.

Like, and I don't know if these adoptees are in the fog or not.

I'm not sure, but they are very aggressive.

I try to be not aggressive.

Anybody that's aggressive towards you for trying to speak the truth about adoption is just very unhealed.

If they aren't even receptive to listening, then they're in the fog.

I mean, it's

not even wanting to understand something further that has affected your life in such a great way and is really just very prevalent in your life.

That's where the fog comes from.

That's the only way I can really explain it.

And like you said, the only way that I can really explain being adopted is I feel like I'm in a room full of people.

And I'll get along and I'll talk to everybody and I'll figure everybody out and like whatever.

But I never feel like I belong in the room.

Do you know what I mean?

Like I always feel like I'm kind of like on the outside of everything looking in and I don't ever really make those connections with people, like really strong, deep connections.

Almost like detached a little bit.

I'm very detached.

Absolutely.

And most adoptees that I talk to are very detached.

And you think that's because like you're subconsciously a fear, like afraid of somebody leaving?

Or yeah.

Oh, yeah, there's always going to be that internalized fear of abandonment.

Yeah.

Because the person that was supposed to love me most on earth literally just gave me to somebody else.

Right.

Do you know what I mean?

And that's when I don't know why people deny trauma from adoption.

Right.

I don't know either.

Your life started with the person who was supposed to love you the most giving you away to somebody else.

They turned into you.

They gave you away.

That's grief.

That's loss.

To not understand why people would have a negative feeling about that, it doesn't make sense to me.

like i just don't understand and you can also have a positive adoption experience and also be traumatized as a pre-verbal trauma baby like that's or you could have like a positive adoption but also struggle with certain things and have feelings and emotions and that's okay too but what i'm hearing a lot from adopted is they don't think it's either black or white you can't oh right you know what i mean two things can't be true at once i'm either really happy with my adoption or i'm not and it's like well what about

You know, you can still have the perfect adoptive parents, had the perfect, you know, being raised and raised in an environment that nurture everything, and you could still have fear, obligation, and guilt.

And it's one of those things where it's like, like you said, like, why are you screaming at me?

Mine was great.

You're wrong.

It's like, well, dude, like, and my whole thing is that, like, why are you, why would you minimize their experience?

You are in the same community.

You're in the same minority group.

So if I had a really good experience and you had a bad one, I want to kind of hush my and let you, because you had a bad one.

And I think that's prioritized, right?

You should.

And asking questions and learning.

Yeah, we're curious.

Right.

Like, how are we going to do that?

And why should we not talk about the bad ones just because somebody had a good one?

Shouldn't it be the opposite?

Shouldn't we be like quiet about the good ones until all of them are good?

Yep.

Tyler.

Why shouldn't we talk about the bad ones until they're all good?

Because right now, adoptees are eight times more likely to be abused.

Right now, it's a $25 billion industry.

Like, you want me to believe that there's not weird, crazy things going on in a $25 billion industry where people are literally buying children?

Like, you know what I mean?

Like, the fact that people don't want you to talk about it is absolutely crazy to me.

They just crazy.

They just don't even want to acknowledge that maybe there's something else going on well no and that's why it shows that it needs to be talked about more and tyler and i said just the few podcasts that we recorded yesterday was like you know until every single adoptee can say i had a very open adoption i felt very secure i could express my feelings you know all of the adults were a safe place like until every single adoptee can say that then there needs to be change because not all of them yeah still broken because and then everyone's like well what do you want me to do just like throw the kids in an orphanage and it's like

they say the craziest stuff.

They're like, oh, we're just going to, wish we just like throw them in a river?

I'm like, yeah, let's just throw them in the river.

Like, let's just

dispose of that.

Like, no, like, we, people don't seem to understand that.

Like, we're calling for reform of the system.

Like, we're calling for reform.

We want.

people to have be educated.

We want people who are adopting children or putting people in their home for a safe environment to be educated on trauma and where they came from and the things that they're going to be experiencing.

Yeah.

So without being able to do that and then taking money out of the equation, right?

Why are there any money being exchanged for human life?

Like, that just makes it unethical to begin with.

It does, right?

And I actually just learned that, like, I had someone, uh, an adoptee write me from Australia and said, It is unheard of here.

Adoption agencies are illegal in our country.

And I was like, that's making me think, like, wow, Bethany would be illegal.

Their operation would be illegal in this country.

Because adoption in Australia is a very last resort.

They support birth mothers.

They support women within their society so that they don't have to give children up for adoption.

There's resources.

There's resources.

They give women resources so that they can keep their children.

It's literally a last resort.

And they say in this country, there's studies that show that 97% of birth mothers want to keep their child.

They say that $5,000 is the difference between being able to keep your child and feeling safe and secure and support it and feeling like you need to give your child to somebody else.

$5,000.

When in turn, they're paying $50,000 to adopt a child.

And also getting a $16,000 tax credit for adopting.

Like, that's insane to me right there.

The fact that you're giving a tax credit to adoptive parents who are already kind of ahead of the game with

wealthy,

but you're not going to help the poverty-stricken birth mom who feels stuck.

Like, this is, we're so backwards by who we're prioritizing in this whole little system.

It's like, it's insane.

And when I found out that it was illegal to have adoption agencies, and she even wrote, she's like, because our country believes commodifying any children or any human life is wrong.

And I'm like, holy shit.

Australia's adoption system is really well, is really well run.

We could learn a lot from

their social system just in general.

I think people don't want to, when I, they get offended when I say industry.

Yeah.

It's not industry.

It's like, well, it is.

It's worth $25 billion.

When something's worth that much money, it is an industry.

Yeah.

It is absolutely.

And people are going to manipulate to protect that.

that money interest.

They're going to do lots of things to make sure that stays flowing.

When I talk about adoption reform, I regularly say that you're probably not going to be able to get your hands in a $25 billion industry and make change on that side of it.

You have to take away the supply.

So you have to make the change on the side of where are the babies coming from for adoption.

How do we help the people that are having these babies keep their children so that we don't need safe external care for other children?

We should be prioritizing family preservation.

And that money should be going to that stuff instead of

tax credits for adopted parents who are already wealthy enough to buy a baby.

We're backwards.

I couldn't agree more.

I couldn't agree more.

But you didn't go through an agency, right?

No, my parents just had a private lawyer.

That was pretty common in the 70s and 80s

was just private lawyers, and there weren't a lot of adoption agencies at that point.

You know, there was, you know, Georgia Tan was going through neighborhoods and finding low-income people and saying, hey, you're pregnant.

Let me just scoop your baby.

And, you know, here we're going to make your life so much better and this baby's life so much better.

Like literally walking the streets and taking infants from people.

It's been predatory from the beginning.

And at the end of the day, it's just a really predatory industry.

It is.

And I mean, you guys are prime examples of being coerced and manipulated and not having adult support and not having people in your lives that were like able to say, hey, we can support you if you keep your child.

Like this is what we can do for you to help you keep your own child.

Like you guys are prime examples.

And it was very public how manipulation and coercion happens, especially with open adoption.

Right.

Open adoption is the number one coercion tactic that's used as far as and I think people look like it's a beautiful thing that we've we've uh evolved from the old clothes stuff we've actually gotten better it's like it's not open adoption

it's they they created open adoption because there was a lack of infants being replaced and so they were like we need a different idea we need a different way to go about this we need a prettier bow to put on it so people yeah yeah but then they didn't give any legal rights to the people who gave birth to the child which just seems so backwards to me why wouldn't the people who gave birth to the child have legal rights to the child in all reality it should be it should be enforceable on both sides because the power dynamic is what creates the coercion and the manipulation.

The power dynamic is really unhealthy and it's really unhealthy for the child.

And I also think the paperwork that's not legally enforceable, then what else is the paperwork besides a coercive thing?

I mean, that's all it is.

When you're sitting there signing paperwork, but you have somebody in your ear telling you you're in the driver's seat, it's going to look exactly how you want it to look, but legally you can't enforce that.

Like, what are you supposed to expect?

You're trusting that these adults are telling you the truth, and you're trusting that these adults want what's best for the child, knowing that you guys being in their life is the best, what's best for them.

You know what I mean?

Like, children who have their healthy biological parents in their lives are going to be more successful.

They have those genetic mirrors, they know where they came from, they aren't questioning everything about their lives, they aren't having all of the negative sides of adoption that adoptees and closed adoptions have.

Like, it's just a healthier situation for them in general.

But you get insecure adoptive parents, fearful, fearful, they're you know, not common for them, not not healed, not child-centered.

Yeah, they're not if you're right off the bat saying that I want to adopt a child to build my family,

you're not a child-centered human being, right?

You are not centering the child in adoption, you are centering your need to be a parent and to build your family.

You shouldn't be adopting to build your family, you should be adopting to provide safe external care to a child that needs it because that's what it is.

That's centering the child, that's what it's designed for.

It's not there to build your family, right?

And it shouldn't be used.

And I think people get that very confused because they're like when they say, Oh, so I'm not allowed, like people who like will be negative and write me and stuff.

And they're like, oh, so I'm not allowed to desire my own kid.

And I said, I didn't say that.

Nobody owes you their kid.

Yeah, I never told you you can't have a desire to have your own child.

I'm saying you don't have to participate in a predatory corrupt system to do that.

And, you know, like, it's

nobody owes you a child.

And, you know what I mean?

You're building your family using someone else's crisis.

That's not an ethical way to build your family.

This woman over here is in crisis.

She's not, you know what I mean?

And then there's the people that, you know, that adopt the children and they're posting the babies online before the birth mother is even out of the hospital.

Oh, that's that one really Adelaide White.

You want to talk about Adelaide White?

Which one is that one?

I don't know.

There's a couple that I've seen.

She's my, like, she's the bane of my existence.

She's a content creator on TikTok.

Okay.

And she went through the whole IVF thing and then they ended up adopting a baby.

And literally, before they like left the hospital and they're on TikTok with the baby, the mother is, the birth mother is still recovering in, probably in the recovery room.

And they're posting this baby on TikTok.

And now it's just their whole entire platform is TikTok and adopt, or on TikTok is adoption and, you know, you know, this adopted baby and showing this adopted baby to the world.

And, but, like, the baby's literally, like, you're literally showing a child that's in like the, in crisis.

You know what I mean?

Like, this child was just born, just removed from its mother.

It's, it's experiencing maternal separation.

And here you are, like, exploiting it to the world.

And I was gonna, I was gonna say, like, and I think that people just look at it like, oh, it's just a baby.

And it's like, yeah but you don't really if you look at the studies like those babies are actually they're suffering right that's why they can't they're unconsolable they're crying all the time don't want to eat because they don't have the smell they don't have the same heartbeat nothing uh it's not normal or natural to them it's heartbreaking

stranger you're giving it like that's what people don't seem to understand like

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When adoptive parents want to be in the hospital, there's no benefit for the child at all whatsoever.

You going into a different room with that child and putting that child on a complete stranger doesn't do anything for that child.

It doesn't regulate that child's needs in any way, shape, or form.

It provides a warm

chest for them to lay on.

But it's not the mom's smell.

There's no chemical, there's no chemical bond.

There's no mother's smell.

It's not the same thing.

And it's predatory.

We were talking about Siobhan earlier.

She's on TikTok, first mom, birth mom, and she's one of the most amazing human beings ever.

But her story,

the adopted parents were in the delivery room.

The adoptive father is holding her leg

while the baby is exiting her body.

Didn't he even cut the umbilical cord?

He cut the umbilical cord.

There's pictures of him holding her leg while she's holding her spread eagle on the table.

The baby's coming out, and he's holding her leg.

And she said from the beginning she didn't want them in the room.

She didn't want them in the room.

They insisted.

Dude, that is like that's so at their cosplaying birth.

Yeah.

It's like some hands

literally.

It's a handmade tail shit.

It's handmade and tail shit.

Yeah.

That is so.

I did not.

That is, see that.

But that's not uncommon.

No, it's not.

They want to be there because they can't have that experience for themselves, but they're taking it away from the person who's actually having the experience.

And I can't even imagine how uncomfortable it is to have like

some random guys.

I actually saw a TikTok video of the adoptive parents in a hospital room and the nurse brings in their baby and the baby's unconsolable, crying.

Yes.

And they're trying to get a video and you can tell the mom's like,

what's going on?

She's She's really upset.

Like, I'm, you know, and it's like, and watching it, like, it literally got me emotional because I'm like, oh my God.

That baby wants that baby wants its mom.

And they, and the baby knows this is not my mom.

Oh, 100%.

And so when a baby is born with, you know, specific survival instincts, they're immediately going to be unconsolable because it's, it's, they know they're with strangers.

And I thought in my head, I'm like, whoa, I never thought about, you know, the daughter we relinquished.

Like, what was she doing in the nursery?

Like, she was.

Well, thank God she was in the nursery for like 30 30 minutes.

And I was like, she needs to come to you.

Yeah, we were like, yeah, which is the same thing.

I held on to her for three days as much as I could.

Yeah.

But watching that video, like, and you're right, the adoptive parents had one of their friends filming it because they thought it was going to be this like

we got our baby and the baby knew who I was and this and that, but the baby has no idea who you are.

You'll see the mom actually look at the camera like, oh, stop recording.

Like, this isn't good.

And I'm like, this is so sad.

It's because you're right.

They're not thinking about the baby at all.

They're not.

And they just think, like, oh, it's a baby.

It has no clue.

And the issue.

is

they're there because they're afraid that the birth mother is going to change her mind.

They're there because they're afraid the birth mother is going to hold the baby and bond with the baby and not want to relinquish the baby.

That's why they're there.

That's why they're pushing.

That's why they're like, hey, you've had enough time.

Give us the baby.

Because they don't want you to change your mind.

To get connected.

Which when you give, I mean, you, I mean, I have three children.

I, I, when I, when you give birth, like, your whole body just, it's, you're just different after you give birth.

Like,

you know, you're rushed with hormones and you're rushed with all these feelings and emotions and everything else.

And as a birth mother, like

you should have that opportunity to like feel those feels and see your baby and bond with your baby and change your mind if you want to.

Absolutely.

It's your right to do that.

It's your right to do that.

And if they're sitting there holding your leg, right?

You're like,

how are you supposed to feel comfortable changing your mind?

And

that's where the coercion comes in.

Because then as a birth mom, you'll think to yourself, well, I don't want to hurt their feelings.

I've made all these promises to them and here they are in front of me.

And if I change my my mind, it's going to break their heart.

I'm a huge advocate.

So, you know what, actually, kudos to your fucking sister.

I know.

Because

his sister was going to choose adoption for our niece.

And, you know, she rolled in that room sobbing, but she looked right at him and said, I can't do it.

And I'm taking her home.

Oh, I love that.

And the adoptive parents were so sweet.

They were like, honey, it's okay.

Everything's going to be a good thing.

That's the only reaction that she's going to be.

And the adoptive mom, or the, you know, she was going to be adoptive mom.

She's like, you're going to be a great mom.

Yeah.

I know it.

And then they held the composure.

When they left, they were both.

And then then when I watched them walk out the hospital, I mean, she was just sobbing.

So I'm not minimizing adoptive parents.

No.

Like they have their own feelings

and they are allowed to grieve.

But I was just thinking to them, I'm like, damn, kudos to your sister because she was very emotional.

She didn't want to do it

because of the fear of hurting their feelings.

She asked my mom to do it.

My mom's like, honey, you have to tell them yourself.

Well, let's talk about the fact that like pre-birth matching just shouldn't exist.

Yeah.

You're absolutely right.

I mean, why do we, I mean, you educated me on that.

When you talked to me about that, I was like, oh my gosh, that makes so much sense.

Right, because all of a sudden, if you, like, you, you match with somebody and they're gonna be the parents and now they're having a baby shower and they're doing they're making a nursery and they got the car seat and all their friends are excited and they're doing gender reveals and how are you supposed to change your mind when you're literally watching this family have all these experiences expecting to get your baby and then you're like sitting there you're like well i can't change my mind now because it would just completely you know what i mean like it really takes away from your ability to keep your own child especially when i i'm especially back then too i was such a people pleaser right like i told like i told you like i'd be calling them on the phone like once a week, like,

almost pep talking them.

Yeah.

Like, don't worry, I'm not going to change my mind.

Like, it's good.

This is how it's going to be.

And so, for sure, I would have been, even if I wanted to change my mind, it would have been super hard for me, I think.

Yeah.

Oh, 100%.

100%.

But she knew, like, I think, like, they knew that that was the case.

And that's why they were rushing you to, you know what I mean?

They wanted the baby in their hands, like, ASAP.

They wanted to be out of the hospital.

You know, the exchange was in the parking lot.

Like, there was a lot of things about your situation that was, that was, but very common and very normal.

Like,

your situation is not abnormal.

It's actually probably the most common story I hear with adoption.

Which is crazy because it's so common, but we're the only, we just happen to be on TV, right?

And people are like, they're able to see it.

But you can see it.

Like, you can see the rabbit look in the eye and you can see, like, you can see it happening in real time, like, just that incessant need to get the hands on the baby before anybody changes their mind.

And I think it's super important that it was documented and documented like authentically.

Oh, you know, because it's important for people to see it.

It's important for people to see and even adoptees to see that maybe they might think that their birth parent didn't love them or care about them to see the struggles that we go through, to see how freaking hard it is sometimes.

Like, all of that's important.

Well, I've had a lot of adoptees write me and say that because of you guys being on the show and just watching you, I...

I like had my hate and my anger and hatred towards my birth mom, I thought I had just dissipated because I was able to see her through you guys and like really know that I wasn't just thrown in the river.

I think your story is incredibly important for adoptees to see.

I know personally, I wish that I had adoptive parents or I wish that I had birth parents like you.

I do.

I wish that my birth parents cared and were healthy human beings and wanted to be a part of my life and fought to be a part of my life.

Like I think a lot of adoptees see you and think like, wow, maybe I have birth parents waiting for me that are like that too.

Or like maybe my, like, because a lot of the closed adoptions, like, we really don't know what's waiting for us on the other side.

So like, I think that you give a lot of adoptees hope that maybe there are like good adoptive or good birth parents on the other side because there are so many like really negative reunion stories.

Like there's I know I've

there are a lot of really unhealthy birth families that just never really got it together and are not, it's just, it doesn't go well when there's a reunion.

And it goes back to because in the beginning

society failed them honestly.

Oh 100%.

Like my birth mother was 100% failed.

She was failed by everybody in her entire life.

Like she was, she had a really hard life starting as a child and then just was never able to recover.

So like, you know, I give her some grace and I give her some, I, I give her understanding.

Like I totally understand, like, I have no ill feelings towards her.

Um, but like, I feel as though that's a lot of birth mothers have.

And that's so sad.

That makes me want to like, I'll be your birth mom.

I will be anybody's birth mom.

Like, that makes me really kind of emotional.

Like, that's sad.

I just, but I just think it's so important that you guys are speaking out despite the negative things that people have to say to you.

Because for adoptees, I think that you're giving adoptees hope that maybe there's somebody waiting for us out there that cares about us and loves us and wants to be a part of our life.

You know what I mean?

Because it's scary because you don't know.

And I know growing up, my mom would always say things to me like, oh, well, you know, maybe they moved on with their life and had another family and you're just going to be like bothering me.

How does that make a kid feel like that?

But in the same breath, she would say things, like, it would be like, oh, well, maybe she was a drug addict and couldn't take care of you and this.

But then, like, or in the same breath, it would be like the other thing.

Like, maybe she has this great life now and you're just going to be like disturbing her life.

That's going to make you feel like shit as a kid.

Exactly, 100%.

But then I was always thinking, like, do I really want to look for them?

Because, you know what I mean?

Like, again, like, you don't want, I would feel awful if I like.

found my birth mother and she had all these kids and a husband that didn't know about me and then like it like ruined her life you know what i mean right you don't want to ruin and hopefully i don't ever give bad advice but i mean there are adoptees that write me and they'll say like i just don't know if my you know if they love me or they care and my response is always like i can tell you one thing right now that no matter what is going on in your birth mom's life, that she loves you.

Like, even with your birth mom, like, she might have not made good decisions in her life and you know, messed up in certain ways, but I know as a birth mom, deep in your soul, like you love your children, all your children, deeply.

She definitely told me, like, I felt like a piece of me was missing my whole life.

And, like, she, you know, she did eventually like blame her drug problem on me not being there.

It was a very odd situation.

But it was a very odd situation.

But she, yeah, but like, it was more or less like, you know, a big, you weren't there.

And, you know, my life was never the same.

And I never was able to get my act together because I felt like something was missing.

It was kind of the same thing.

And it's like, honey, I wouldn't have been able to save you.

Like, that's your journey, too.

Well, that's also not fair either because I think even that's an example of a birth parent playing on that fear, obligation, and guilt that you are just.

have to have.

We get it from all angles.

The adoptee really does get it from all angles.

It's, it's in the triad, we are definitely the ones that I think take the brunt of the negative, negativity.

And that's why it all needs to change.

I mean, I'm hearing adoptees screaming from the rooftops of how things need to change and how things need to be different.

And adoption very much

plays it as in, oh, well, it all needs to be child-centered and they are the most important.

But as we are being shown, they aren't the most important.

And nobody is listening to them.

Nobody's listening to about the changes that need to happen when, in fact, that's the only person and people we need to be listening to.

Like, it blows my mind.

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Were you raised always knowing you were adopted?

Yeah, I never didn't know that I was adopted.

My parents, they definitely always, it was always something that I was told.

I don't ever remember being told that I was adopted.

So I'm assuming that they read me books or like, you know, did like whatever age appropriate.

Just raised knowing it.

Right.

That was the only thing that I think they did right was telling me that I was adopted.

There's plenty of adoptees out there that aren't told that they're adopted and either find out later in life or are told later in life.

And I just can't even fathom the trauma of having a moment where you found that out, where you went from like not knowing to knowing.

I think that one of the most important things adoptive parents can do is always make sure that their child knows that they're adopted.

Do not ever say, Well, I don't know.

What's a good time for me to tell my kid that they're adopted?

Right.

From the second they understand words.

You know, that's one of the things that Brian and Teresa have always done too with Carly.

Like, they have always talked about it ever since she was little.

They have always read her books.

And, you know, people would come and talk and be like, oh, she's so beautiful.

And she'd be like, oh, she's adopted, you know?

And so it, and I feel like that's so healthy.

Like, just raise them just knowing.

Right.

Because what's the alternative?

The alternative is that you don't know that you're adopted.

You have no chance of getting an accurate medical history.

You're literally going to the doctor and what giving the medical history of like the family that you live with it looks like nothing to do with you.

Like, that's dangerous.

It is dangerous.

It's dangerous to not know that you're, to not know who you're biologically related to.

And then, or just like the trauma of just one day being like, you're 12 now, and so we have something to tell you, you know, or whatever age they decide.

I can't even imagine.

Like, I was well aware that I didn't act like my family and that I didn't look like really.

Yeah, growing up, like, I always like, and it became really obvious when I met my actual birth family.

And I, the way, the mannerisms and the way that I, we, oh my god, it was absolutely insane.

Like, I instantly felt like I was with people that I belonged with.

So, you grew up kind of knowing that you like mannerisms were different?

Yeah, yeah, like I just, nothing was ever the same.

We didn't really think the same way, we didn't talk the same way, we didn't have anything, you know what I mean?

Like, when you see other people, like, you're like, oh, you look just like your mom.

Oh, you just laugh just like your mom.

Oh, you, like, I always notice when families look like each other.

Like, I'm really, I love seeing genetics, and I love like, like, seeing families that look alike and talking about that kind of stuff.

So, like, I always, as a kid, would notice, like, oh, look at those two girls, like, those two people over there, they're laughing alike, or like, you know what I mean?

And I would be like, oh, I don't laugh like anybody in my family.

Like, hypersensitive to it.

Right.

So, like, I feel like, I don't know, just like, I can't imagine growing up not knowing that you're adopted and not understanding why you don't match anybody around you.

Like, it has to be so confusing.

It has to be really confusing.

Did you, when you were growing up, though, did you have, like, did religion play any part?

Oh, yeah.

Okay, because I was going to ask you, I wanted to know, it seems all the messages that I'm receiving, it seems very, like, very common.

Yeah, I mean, we were at church every Sunday.

I mean, my parents were religious.

Like, we were just Presbyterian, which is, like, one of their, like, you know, it's a very open religion.

We're very LGBT friendly.

And it's a very open religion.

It's more of a community than it is a religion.

But we were definitely in church every Sunday and part of that community.

Do you think that played a part in any of the

guilt or any of the...

Like, what does that play any part in?

I mean, it definitely, like, when I would hear, like, you're like God's gift, like that kind of thing always really bothered bothered me.

And I could never really understand why.

And now, as an adult, I understand, like, now that I'm a part of the community and I understand, like, so wait, if, like, wait, what about the kids that went into like abusive adopted homes?

Was that God's will as well?

Like, did God will them to have horrible lives?

Like, what, like,

would, like, like, I don't understand.

Like, so, yeah, like, I guess religion, like, definitely, like, when people make it a part of it, it definitely, you question things because you're like, there's other adoptees that are, like, in really bad situations.

Was that God's intention for them to have like horrible families?

Like, how do you justify that?

If I was God's gift to you, they were God's gift to that family.

Like, how do you justify the fact that they had a horrible life?

So, you're saying that, like, when people would say, like, God's gift, you're about God's gift, like, that kind of makes it

confusing because at the same time, it's like, so, in order for God's gift to be you, I had to punish or make a birth mom miserable and sad.

Or what I'm not like, is that right?

Like, was it God's intention to like punish the birth mom who now has this empty hole in her in her life?

Like, it's yeah, like bringing religion into the adoption the adoption story is just a very I just didn't know how prevalent it was until all of them.

I think it's prevalent in a lot of other religions.

Like, I know, like, Mormons really push adoption.

I know that it's like really big in a lot of the purity religions, as you guys know, that like people who can't have children, like having a family is like, that's what they base their whole entire existence on, is like the ability to have a family in those religions.

Which I wonder if that plays into the adopted parents, like, kind of like subconsciously prioritizing their own need to be a parent.

I also

think that it does.

yeah like that's why the infertility trauma like with with like people in like the Mormon community like they when they suffer from infertility like having a family and is like the ultimate goal and like having like and having as many kids as they can like that's like that's like what they're encouraged to do so like there's a lot of shame that comes with not being able to to provide that so I think that like adoption is heavily pushed in religious communities because they have to have those families or else they're not relevant in the community yeah see that's kind of like that and that's also where I feel like that should not play a part

at all We need to keep that out of the whole equation because it makes it murky and

it's just messy, I feel like.

I mean, like, there's really just the only reason that anybody should be placed for adoption is because they need safe external care.

Like, we shouldn't be building our families using other people's children.

It just shouldn't happen.

Like, it's just not well.

That's also my next point: is like, how do what are the other options besides adoption?

I hear all the time, and I like

adopting what are the other options.

Or an ethical adoption.

Is there any ethical adoption?

Or

I mean, in an ideal world,

a fully open adoption that is legally enforceable on both sides, almost a co-parenting situation is what's best for the child if it's available and the parents are healthy people and the adoptive parents are healthy people and they're able to provide that healthy relationship for the child.

Like, that's an ideal situation for me because everybody gets to be involved and everybody's there for the child.

The child has their genetic mirrors, they have everything that they need, and they're being raised with surrounded by all the love that they need.

But again, that's an ideal situation.

There's really no ethical way to do adoption.

And I don't have a solution.

People ask me all the time, reform needs to happen.

First and foremost, adoptive parents have to be educated.

There has to be an ongoing education system.

Ongoing is like the point.

I say it all the time.

Adoption agencies tell you, oh, we do all this follow-up and post-adoption care, and they don't, that could mean like giving them a Christmas card once a year.

It doesn't necessarily mean there's continued education or they're following up to make sure the adoptee is safe.

It should be like a legal thing.

Every few years you're taking classes again.

Right, because at the end of the day, they're doing home studies.

Guess who's performing the home studies?

Right.

The adoption agency, right?

People you're paying, so of course you're going to pass the home study.

You're paying them $60,000 to pass the home study.

And that's part of where reform needs to happen.

That shouldn't be a conflict.

That's a conflict of interest.

That's a complete conflict of interest.

And it shouldn't even be a thing.

There's no separation there that keeps the adoptee safe.

There's nothing that's keeping the adoptee safe in any way shape or form they're saying hey we're gonna come into your home we're gonna check it and they just it does there's nothing there it's first of all the standards for home studies are kind of a joke to begin with like if you're if you don't have like someone locked in your basement like you're probably gonna pass a home study right you know what i mean like if you're financially stable which all these people are and you know all these things but Passing a home study is a joke.

So people are like, oh, but people will hold that to a, like, that's like the highest standard of like care.

Like, oh, if you could pass a home study, you're like the best human being ever, which isn't the case.

It's just not the case.

I know plenty of people that have passed home studies that are horrible human beings and have no business around children.

So, like,

right now, we're already at a place where there's no separation of power.

There's no, there's a huge conflicts of interest between adoption, the adoption agencies, the adoptive parents, and the safety of the adoptee.

And I really think that, like, reforming that is a good place to start.

Yeah, I agree.

Like, figuring out like how we keep adoptees safe after they've been adopted, whether it's like there's some sort of check system to make sure that like

ongoing continuously, yeah.

But at the end of the day, the adopted parents need to be educated.

And they think that they're just getting this blank slate that they're going to be able to raise however they want.

That's why they want the infants and not that's why they're not adopting from foster care.

They don't want to have the blank slate, but they're not getting a blank slate.

They're getting a child that's coming with maternal separation trauma.

And I think they honestly believe that they're getting a blank slate, which I don't know where that came from, but I.

Because, like I said, people look at it as, and it's a baby, it doesn't know anything.

It doesn't know anything.

That's insane because when you think about it, like, you're just choosing ignorance at that point.

Right.

And I also feel like if you know you're going to be an adoptive parent, you need to know those things so that way you can do what you're doing.

You're doing a disservice to your child.

The only person you're doing a disservice to by not educating yourself on adoption and adoption trauma is the child.

Because you're just going in completely unprepared to parent a child that is probably going to have issues.

I mean, their neurodivergence is huge.

Most of us have some sort of ADHD, autism, some sort of neurodivergence, huge in the adoption community.

And a lot of it's because, I mean, a lot of it's because we were, you know, a lot of us were born addicted to drugs, but whatever, whatever the situation is, there's a lot of, a lot of that within the community.

There's a lot of drug addiction.

There's a lot of just people,

mental health issues.

And again, it's a lot of it is caused by internalizing all the negative feelings that you had about your adoption and not being able to talk about it growing up.

So you end up with all kinds of mental health issues.

I feel like people constantly say, like, well, what do you want us to do?

And I'm like, my first thing is, well, how how about, like I said about Australia earlier, like, let's take a playbook out of their process.

I mean, like, why aren't we doing that?

Why aren't we like looking at other places where it works?

And honestly, when they ask about ethics, it's like, well, anything that has to do with commodifying children is not ethical.

I don't care what you build on top of it or what positive experience you had.

Selling children is not

ethical.

How is it ethical to go to an adoption agency and sit there and fill out a literal form?

Yes, I'm okay with the baby being addicted addicted to crack heroin.

Right.

But not the, you know what I mean?

Like you're an adult.

It's like build-a-bear.

It's literally like Build-A-Bear.

Yeah.

Like you're literally telling, you're commodifying a child.

And it's so prevalent when it's so easy to see when you're looking at the process to adopt that it's it's it's just crazy.

And so I think

the problem with our culture is that, you know,

the positive side of adoption has always been talked about.

It's just like beautiful and rainbows and so amazing.

And now that people are starting to speak about the hard stuff and what adoptees go through and the struggles that they have like nobody wants to listen to it and so it's like well we need to talk about it more so that way it can change because the only way that it's going to change is if we change the culture in the United States and the thinking

on adoption.

You got to change the narrative.

You got to change the narrative.

I mean, and the only way to do that is let adoptees speak.

And the ones that have positive experiences, that's great.

We're all happy.

We're all really great.

I mean, that's awesome.

You just listen to all the other ones.

It doesn't negate the negative ones.

And the ones that have the positive experiences a lot of times don't even realize that they didn't have a positive experience.

Like, I didn't.

I would have told you, again, 10 years ago, I would have told you that I had the best family growing up.

I had a great adoption.

I was super pro-adoption.

I would, like, I watched the only reason I watched Teen Mom at all was because of your story.

I've never seen, I will admit that, like, I've never seen any other Teen Mom other than like

the season that you were on because I was watching for the adoption story.

But, like, I like would have

like fist fought somebody that said that adoption was bad.

Do you know what I mean?

When my best friend was like, maybe you should like think about it this way.

I was like, you're crazy.

I had awesome parents.

Maybe you just had like really shitty parents and that sucks for you.

But like my parents were great.

And I was like, and I like literally went to town on my friend about and like the same thing that people say to me now when they're like happy adoptees.

And I, it really took going to therapy and

really taking a deep dive into how I felt growing up and everything else to realize realize like what so in a way when you see these other adoptees kind of attacking the positive you know you're like okay I get you I understand I was there 10 years

that's what's so frustrating yeah is that like I was that person that was like really angry at people saying that adoption is negative because I couldn't in my brain comprehend how giving a child a better home was a negative thing.

But now I see that you're not necessarily giving a child a better home.

You're just giving them a different home.

Right.

Adoption doesn't guarantee you a better life.

Yeah.

It guarantees you a different life.

Yeah.

And I think people get that very, very confused.

Very confused.

Yeah, because I've had a lot of people write me saying horrible stories.

I mean, and I think it comes down to like, you know, when these adoptive parents aren't trauma-informed and they're kind of self, you know, centering themselves and the whole thing, the kid suffers.

And they're writing me messages, and it's clear that that led into them being raised.

And it's like, well, yeah, the most common, I mean, hands down, I've been doing this for not a long, long time, but like long enough that I've heard thousands of adoption stories.

The most common adoption story, hands down, 100%,

is rich infertile woman,

does IVF or whatever, can't have her own child, doesn't get any help, adopts to fill a void, puts the adoption, puts her infertility trauma on the adoptee.

And that's my story, and that's almost every adoptee I know has the same exact story.

Now, did your adoptive mom ever talk about her infertility with you growing up?

Wow, okay.

Interesting.

Never, ever, ever, never talked about it.

That's crazy.

but i was definitely there i was definitely there to fill the void i was definitely there to like be the perfect child and and like do all the things that like her child would have done and when i didn't do the things that like her child would have done it was very obvious that that there was disappointment that i was not her child that i was not her biological child because her biological child would have never acted like i acted Do you know what I mean?

Like it was always, there was always that underlying feeling.

And she was so busy trying to portray herself as the perfect mom to society

that she did everything for me, but never did anything with me.

She was my Girl Scout leader.

She was my coach.

She was the PTO president.

She ran the church youth group.

But she was never home.

She never played with me.

She never did anything with me.

She never spent time with me.

She was just so busy showing society that she was this great mom because that was, you know, what she was doing.

That's what she prioritized.

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I mean, I know your dad, your dad recently passed.

He did, yeah.

But I feel like when I hear you speak, I feel like your dad seemed, to me, it comes off like you probably felt more comfortable with him in a sense.

And again, this is another thing that I will, I'll die on this hill.

The most common story that I hear is narcissistic adoptive mom, passive adoptive father.

And that's what you hear all the time.

And that's the dynamic is the mom is the ringleader.

The mom is the one that wanted the adoption.

The mom is the, you know, the one, is just, that's it.

And the passive dad.

And that's what I had.

I had a very strong-willed mother and a dad that was kind of just like, he owned a travel agency and basically just like traveled all the time and was like, worked all the time.

And he was a great man and a wonderful human being.

And I love my dad very, very much, but like definitely did not protect me from my adoptive mother.

And I think that's the story that we hear most from adoptees is that they had.

A very narcissistic mom and a dad that didn't protect them.

And that's the only real complaint that I hear from adoptees about adoptive fathers

is that they didn't protect them from the adoptive mother.

Do you hold a little bit of resent?

I did resent my dad, definitely.

I did actually,

I did, I talked about it a lot in therapy that, like, and again, my dad was my best friend.

My dad definitely tried.

There was never any malicious intent from my dad at all, whatsoever.

But I did definitely resent the fact that he did not do anything to protect me from my mom.

But I know you said in the recent years that you and him had a very good conversation.

You talked about that.

We did.

Actually, it was like he just passed um away in january and it was probably in

maybe november we were just sitting there and i was kind of telling him a little bit about like the tick tock videos that i was making and then i was talking about adoption on like a platform and stuff and and he and i was like telling him a little bit about like adoption trauma and like just what we talk about and he's like oh that makes sense like he's like i never really thought about it that way and like i i think i like i don't think that he just ever really thought about it and i think that that's the issue with most people most people just don't think that there is another side to it they don't think about like that that anybody should feel anything but good about it because they don't, it's never been presented to them that way.

So, like, my dad just never saw it as anything but like a good thing.

Like, he, in his mind, they provided me with this great life.

You know, I went to private school and college and got a good career and did all these things.

And he attributed that to the fact that they were able to provide this life for me.

He never really saw it as like abandonment and loss and grief for me.

So, for him to acknowledge that those things happened was like really important for me.

Yeah, I bet.

It was very validating.

I never in a million years thought that I would hear him acknowledge that

maybe they didn't make the best decisions or that you know he didn't that he didn't protect me from my mom.

And he did.

He really did acknowledge those things and

let me know that.

So that was huge.

But

so if you had like a if you were to label it like, okay, if I, if I could go back in time and, and in order to say I had the best adoption experience, like what would

as an adoptee, like, what could adoptive parents, if they're actually listening, what could they, what is, is, what could they have done?

What could they have done better?

Or what can adoptive parents do?

Yeah.

If they're thinking even about adopting.

It's a hard one.

Don't adopt.

Yeah, I know.

That's a hard one.

I know.

But if they're already, let's say they're already in the situation, what, as an adoptee, what could they do?

I think it's really important to listen to adoptees.

Okay.

I think it's incredibly important to listen to adoptees' stories.

And I think that it's incredibly important to go to family therapists and to find trauma-informed therapists.

I think there's a very, there's a lack of adoption-informed therapists in this country.

There's one in Pennsylvania that I know of.

I don't find any.

There's one in Pennsylvania that I know of, and actually, Brenda, the adoptive mom, Brenda, that's in Texas, she actually does virtual therapy sessions with the woman in Pennsylvania because it was like the only one that we could find.

And so she always recommends people to go to her.

But I think that it's really important that you find someone that specializes in this type of family dynamic and you go regularly so that your child always will know that they are able to talk about anything they want,

however they feel.

I think that really being educated and continuing your education is important.

And that might actually minimize the fog if they're constantly giving this opportunity to speak and express, like maybe that won't.

Right.

And you need to advocate for your child and you need to support them and you need to understand that like, like you like finding their birth family, like things, like you need to like be ready to make these suggestions to them and to encourage them to do these things.

Because a lot of adoptees are like oh I don't want to find my birth family because they're scared they're scared that they're going to be rejected or they're scared you know what I mean secondhand rejection is awful like oh I couldn't my like being rejected by my birth mom again was just was was a horrible horrible feeling but like so I think a lot of adoptees like are really stuck in like a point where like they don't want to even look I think that it's really important for adoptive families to understand that and to be like educated on that and how to support them and how to you know really just talk to them about everything that has to do with it and have an open conversation and do you think like encouraging them to do so?

Like, hey,

encouraging them to look and saying, like, if something happens, we're here to support you and we will talk about it or whatever.

I think just encouraging them to feel whatever they want to feel or do whatever they want to do with regards to their own life and their own adoption is super important.

And it doesn't happen.

It doesn't happen because of insecurities.

Like in reality, like the...

Honestly, if you're an adoptive parent that has insecurities or you're even thinking about adopting, you probably shouldn't adopt.

Right.

You're thinking about adopting it.

If you're thinking about adopting and the thought of your child finding their biological family bothers you, don't adopt a child.

Right.

Or, oh, them getting older and they're going to want nothing to do with me.

Like, any of you.

Like, you're sitting there and you're thinking, like, oh, like, what if they want to search for their, like, oh, I'm so scared.

Like, I mean, there was a, there was a, there was a very, a very prevalent conversation between, you know, your adoptive parents and you were, they basically said, our biggest fear is that she's going to want to have a relationship with you when she's older.

And you're saying that fear alone.

That fear alone,

you should not adopt.

Or if you're afraid that the child that you're going to raise will want to have a relationship with the person who gave birth to them, then you should not be in that child's life.

You're not a safe person for them.

It's not safe.

It's not child-centered.

It's not child-centered.

Yeah, you're literally.

They're going to come to you and be like, I want to have a relationship with my parents.

And you're going to be like, oh my God, that was my biggest fear.

Like,

right, no.

And then they're going to not want to even talk about it.

They're going to internalize it and then they're never going to want to talk about it again.

And that's the other thing.

A lot of adoptive children will go to their adoptive parents parents and say, I would like to find my biological family.

And they're met with, well, you know, and they're met with negativity and it's a very negative experience.

And what if it's in there?

And then, or that fear is put in them by their adoptive parents.

How stuck that's the adoptive children?

That's what we're saying.

I mean,

my adoptive mom would regularly say things to me that made me afraid to look.

Which I think was why, like, when she passed away, that I kind of just didn't even bother to look.

I was like, I was like, well, what if everything that she said was right?

Like, I didn't, you know what I mean?

What are the things that she would say?

Again, like, we're basically just saying, like, you know, what if they have moved on and they have a family and you're disturbing their family?

Or, like, or she would say things like, what if she's like a horrible drug addict and like you find out like awful things about her?

Like, you know what I mean?

Like, it was always like, it was always spun in a negative way.

Like, what if you find her and some horrible thing happens?

It was never like, what if you find her and she's this wonderful person and wants you in her life?

It was always just negative and like, don't do it because something bad could happen.

And so, obviously, you most recently did find them and you've, and you've met your other siblings.

Some of them, yeah.

Some of them.

Oh, not all of them.

No.

I have, so I, there were eight of us.

Um, one passed away.

My, my sister April passed away.

Um,

horrible circumstances.

Um, and then I have,

so there was Mary Jane was my first sister, and then my brother Michael.

And they're just, they all were raised in like really chaotic, horrible, abusive environments.

Yeah.

So they're just, they're not healthy people.

Right.

So the relationships aren't able to happen at this point.

Are any of them healthy?

I do.

My brother Harley, who's again, is the youngest and was the only one that was actually kept in that situation.

And I think because he was the youngest, was maybe spoiled a little bit.

So he kind of had more of

an opportunity to like normalcy, not necessarily like the greatest, but like was a little enough normalcy that he was okay, that he's okay now.

Okay.

He's awesome.

I love him.

And I talk to him all the time.

And he's got this awesome wife who I absolutely adore.

And they're the ones that I actually got to meet when I went to meet my birth mom.

So, but I hugged him, and for the first time in my life, I felt family.

Oh, wow.

For the first time in my life, I was like, oh, my God, this feels like

I know this person like in a different way than I've ever felt when I hugged my, even my adoptive family.

Like, the bond and like this, the feeling I had when I hugged him and my other brother Tony was just so different than anything I've ever felt in my life.

Like, different, because I think what people don't understand is that, like, as an adoptee, like, yeah, I have my adoptive parents, but then their parents are your grandparents.

And, like, you, you know what I mean?

It's a whole whole branch of and if you never felt a hug like that, I mean, that's got to be really

insurance.

It's like the souls know.

My soul knew that that was my family.

My body knew that that was my brother.

Like I felt everything from I like I almost felt like everything inside of him, like all his feelings and emotions seeping into my, it was, I don't know how else to describe it.

It was, it was a very surreal experience, but I've never felt anything like that in my life.

And I can only assume it's because my body knew that that was my my relative.

That was my DNA.

Would you consider like you being reunited as a good experience, bad?

Like, what would you?

It was an experience.

Okay.

But you know what?

One person that I don't ever really hear you talk about is your birth father.

He passed away.

My story is absolutely the birth family story is absolutely insane.

So my birth mother,

I think the reason that I was the only one out of seven that was given up for adoption.

And I think that it was because my birth mother wasn't quite sure who my birth father was.

She had the first two children with Michael, who is, who did end up being my birth father.

And then she left him and she was getting with Tony, and who is the father of the other five.

And I think she was cheating on Tony with Michael and didn't know who the father of the child was and then was like pressured into giving, like, you know what I mean?

The opportunity presented itself, the adoption, and she was like, well, I really don't know who the dad is and I don't want to like, you know.

And I'm pretty sure that that's why I was given up for adoption.

But when she went back to Tony, Tony paid somebody to hit my birth father with a car.

What the fuck?

And he ended up in a coma.

Wow.

For a while, he came out of the coma, and then Tony paid somebody to run him off the road again, and he ended up passing away the second time.

Wow.

Okay, so what the hell?

Yeah, so I never have to beat my birth father.

He passed away very young.

And so I don't really know anything about him.

I do have contact with his family, though.

So I my his

his brother's daughter I talk to like my first cousin and then a couple of my second cousins on that side they all live like five minutes from me Have you ever seen

me

have you seen pictures of them already?

I look like my birth father.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so.

I mean I and but I sound just like my birth mother I laugh and everything like when I heard her laugh We were cracking up because we laugh exactly the same my sister and I laugh exactly the same.

We both like we when I when I as soon as I started having conversations with them that's when I realized like so much of growing up, like, I didn't resemble these people at all.

I didn't have any of their mannerisms.

I didn't have any of their, like, anything at all.

And it was so obvious when I got with my birth family that I didn't have that growing up.

Which is the importance of genetic mirroring.

It's really important for kids.

And I had no idea what genetic mirroring was until diving into this whole.

I mean, I was blown away by how much I resembled and acted and acted like these people.

That you weren't even raised with.

Our mannerisms are so similar, it's crazy, right?

That I've never even met.

But we like, even like seeing my sister on FaceTime, like the facial expressions that we make are the same, and like we're only half sisters, but like, like, it's still crazy, it's crazy.

And like, I see, like, like, I think that, like, Nova and Carly look exactly the same, you know what I'm saying?

Like, right, like, that genetic mirroring, like, to me, like, that relationship is so important because, like, she can see herself and her sister.

And, like, do you know what I mean?

Like, those relationships are so unbelievably important for adoptees because, like, I don't know, you get to see yourself and other people and people take that advantage.

Take that for, you know what I mean?

Take advantage of that because that's what you're used to.

Like you guys don't know a time when you didn't see people that you, you know what I mean?

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I don't know.

It's so obvious.

And it has to be harder.

Like one of my questions, too, was like, it has to be harder because being an adoptee, but now an older adoptee and knowing that you had siblings out there, like it's almost harder to have to build these relationships from scratch when, in fact, if...

Everything would have been open and honest, it would have just been normal.

Right.

And I can't help but think, like, and I know that this is just me being me, but like, I can't help but thinking, like, if I had known they existed growing up, like, what could I have done to make their lives better?

And, like, maybe they wouldn't have had such hard lives or, like, they wouldn't have turned out the way that they did.

Or, like, I could have helped them.

And I know that that's just me being me.

I'm a helper.

And, like, that's just, like, my initial response to things.

But, like, that's how I feel about it.

I'm like, what if we grew up, if I grew up knowing them, like, could I have called them and like, like, you know, could you have been a resource?

Maybe they weren't going to be able to do that.

Right, like, they never had any guidance.

Could I have like guided them down the right path?

Or like, you know what I mean?

Like, who knows if I could have been a positive influence on their life?

You know what I mean?

Like, they probably wouldn't have been a negative influence on mine.

But like, at the same time, like, I was, I've always been, you know, a very confident person and not very easily, you know, swayed or influenced.

So I feel like I could have been a positive influence on their life.

And I, I, just the fact that opportunity wasn't given to me, I will never forgive my parents for taking away the opportunity to have siblings growing up.

I mean, I had an adopted brother.

We, you know, that relationship is what it was.

Well, Ray, and it's just not the same.

Just having your, yeah.

There's no, there was no bond.

I mean, again, you're putting your adoptive adoptive fat, like you're literally putting strangers in a house together

and then just expecting them to bond.

And then sometimes strangers don't bond with each other.

Like, you're not going to bond with everybody.

Right.

So, like, I really just never felt that bond with my brother.

And again, I had an adoptive mom that triangulated things and pinned us against each other.

And, like,

that was the dynamic, too.

And I think that's a very common dynamic in adoptive homes, especially when there is an adoptive and a biological child.

I was just going to bring that up because I've had really crazy stories lately of adoptees saying, like, I like you saying the first hug that you got from your, you know, biological brother was so intense.

And I've heard people say, I never knew that I was, I never knew that it was possible to feel this relationship with a sibling because I was adopted, but he was biological and actually was born.

The specific girl I'm talking about, she was older, and then she was adopted because they didn't think they could.

I think I know who you're talking about.

And then her brother was a biological.

And she said, I literally like.

She does something to you has to.

She's like, I could sense the shift in the house I could I could feel it like and it's like and it's and they know they know and those adopt when you talk to those adopted children as adults they very much knew that they were the adopted child in the house not the biological and she said that nothing specific happened or was said it just that you could just you could just feel it

that my whole life changed the moment he's so sad well it's yeah i mean it's something that i don't think other people think about like you can not all kids are adopted there some of them are adopted and biological and that creates a really a lot of times people adopt it because they've told they can't have kids and then they get pregnant and they have a child but then they're like oh my god all my prayers have been answered i can have my own kid right right but then you're like wait but then you but you spent all this time convincing this other child that you're my real child then what but then so then there's that confusion too because again whenever people are like who and that's the other thing like as a kid people are constantly like well what about your real parents people constantly say to adoptees well who are your real parents or where are your real parents and then you're like well what does that mean what does that mean who are my real parents right so then you're given that responsibility of figuring out like well these people are raising me and they're there for me full time and they're doing all the parental responses

right these parents that these people like actually created me and gave birth to me so like they're and now as an adult i have a full understanding that the people that the person that that grew me and created me and gave birth to me that's my real parent like that person created my life they i'm alive because of that person and i think people kind of like that's when they're like oh well my real parent they're like no that was your real mother.

And then people get like the parent and then versus a mother versus a parent are two different things.

Or you don't have to be, you know, you don't have to be a parent in order to be a mom is what they're kind of I it and I think that obviously that probably comes from adoptees who are probably still in the fog or whatever and I also noticed that that gets really like they do not like to be told anything about the fog.

They get very upset and said, don't label me.

And it's weird.

It's a tricky situation.

I'm not I'm not trying I I just you just want people to look inward and like maybe like maybe like maybe just take it, maybe look at it.

Like maybe like you don't have to like you can still be mad about it.

Just yeah, just try.

Try.

Yeah.

Just try.

Yeah.

Try to have some other perspective.

Or like just try to understand that maybe you were led to believe something that isn't fully accurate.

Like that's that's important.

Like, or like just acknowledge that two things could be true at once.

Right.

You can acknowledge the fact that you had a good adoption, but that adoption is not a great thing.

I feel like even with birth, with like birth parents, for us, like it's like two feelings a lot all the time it can be happy and sad or you know make you angry and sad at the same time like it all is and we talk about birth parent we really we i think we went through our own little fog for years after placing i mean you definitely did i mean there's i mean you got a lot of criticism because you actually helped another

you actually went and helped another birth mother give her child up for adoption yeah and you got a lot of backlash for that but i think that that was just you being in the fog like you thought you were doing the right thing and you didn't really understand that yeah and i've seen people say like oh you pressured it her into it And I was like, no, no, no, no.

This was four years after Carly was placed.

And this birth mom asked me, Will you be in the room with me?

And she had nobody.

And I was like, Of course I will say that.

Like, you just felt like you don't want the person to be alone.

No, I don't want her to be alone.

And then when her son was born, she kicked everybody out.

She didn't let the adoptive parents in there, nothing.

And she was just her and her son for three days.

And

looking back, what would you tell her now?

If you were presented with that same information now and she came to you and said, like, will you be in the room?

What should I do?

Like, what different information would you give her now?

I think that I would try to talk to her and point out all of the support that she does have in her life

and tell her, like, you can do this.

Like, this doesn't have to be your only option.

Because she did have a very supportive family.

Like, yes, it was out of wedlock, you know, or whatever, but that doesn't matter.

And that doesn't define you.

Yeah, there's a lot of things, of course, I wish I could go back and tell her.

We grow up.

I know people ask me things all the time.

Like, somebody asked me the other day, like, what would I, like, when we were on the live, they said, like, what would I have told you?

Like, if you were, you know, if I, and I'm like, oh, my God, I don't know.

Right?

Right?

Like, that's a really serious question.

But, like, and, like, the answer that Brenda gave was one that I really loved.

And she would have just told you that, like, you're worthy of being a mom.

You're worthy of keeping your child.

You're worthy of parenting your child.

And you are.

And you've proven that.

The two of you have proven that you're very worthy of parenting and being.

But I think part of the coercion stuff was that, like, that I didn't really realize back then was that everyone kept telling us, all the adults kept saying, in order to be the best parent, you have to not be one.

And it was like, all right, all right.

So, any moment, any thought that we would have, and me and Kate talk about it, we looked at each other in the hospital multiple times and we didn't have to say words, but we just knew, like, let's just run.

Let's just get out of here with the baby, and we'll just run.

And we don't care where the hell we go.

And it's like, it was like telepathically.

Yeah, but it was like afterwards, we're like, yeah, but even thinking about it made us feel guilty because it was telling us, well, the best thing you can do, if you want to be a good parent, don't be one.

And it was like, okay, all right.

So it's like, you know, I think looking back at me being now any birth parent, I would say, I would first ask, why are you doing this?

And then after you tell me why, I would say, well, there's a solution for that.

Yeah.

And whatever it is, we're not going to find it relinquished.

There's a solution for that.

Let me help you find those resources because I think that's what it comes down to.

We were just talking to Gretchen Sisson the other day, and she was talking about how the number one reason is

financial resources, like $1,000.

And I think now's a really good time to mention that there are organizations out there that do help that are there to help.

Saving our sisters is one of them.

Um, there's wonderful organizations that you can contact again.

Saving our sisters, if you're a birth mother in need and you want to keep your child, there are people out there that will help you.

It's on my list of things.

One of my goals is to start a service like that in our area.

I, you know, you guys have expressed wanting to help with that.

I would love to make a non-profit organization that fully supports birth bonds with, you know, and even afterwards, like offering career services and education services, housing, childcare.

It's so important.

A full service, you know, how do you correct?

How do you correct a problem?

You fix society so that the problem isn't there to begin.

Yes, it's so absolutely important.

We have to culturally shift it.

And we're not going to change a $25 billion industry because if billions of dollars are involved, no one's in a hurry to make changes or reform it or

do anything to it because then maybe it wouldn't be worth so much money.

Yeah, right.

You know what I mean?

So how do we, again, how do we take away the supply to that industry?

We help birth mothers keep their children.

So, that was going to be my question for you: is like, so, what, you know, where can people find you?

Um, and also, kind of, what are you going to continue doing as an adoptee to try to change this whole system?

I mean, that, I mean, really, that that's on my list of things to do right now.

I have been overloaded with, obviously, I've had a lot of, there's been, you know, some personal situations that have put a lot of things on hold in my life right now.

But, I mean, that is my goal: is to try to get this nonprofit organization off the ground and do something with that.

I'm still on TikTok, Adoptee Advocate Aaron.

I just make videos really.

It's just to talk about it.

I really just want people to understand that there's a different narrative out there.

And

it may be scary to hear it first.

But in the grand scheme of things, we're really just trying to center adopted children.

We're just trying to help children have a better life

and be able to be well taken care of and have people be educated because they're not going to stop adoption.

People that are against adoption and want to abolish adoption, it's a great idea.

And I mean, like, obviously, I'm anti-adoption, and if we could do away with adoption completely, I think that that would be great.

But it's just not, I don't think it's a feasible situation right now in this country.

We have to figure out a healthy, good way to provide safe external.

Yeah, baby steps.

And I think one of the big things that

people do push is really finding a way to do it where the child doesn't lose their identity.

They don't lose their medical records.

They don't, you know what I mean?

Because that's really the worst part of it.

And that was really what got me searching for my birth family to begin with: was that I had kids.

And you go to the doctor and they're like, What's your medical history?

And I'm like, I don't know.

My kids don't know.

And I was like, well, maybe I should find my birth family because I would love to have my medical records.

I still haven't been able to get a coherent medical history out of anybody in my family.

So obviously that could change with federal law.

There has to be baby steps into changing, but that right there is a lot of fun.

I mean, there is a database where like people, like there is an actual database that's anonymous where like those, that information can be left.

I don't know a lot about it, but I was actually, someone just told me about it the other day.

So the database does exist, but like you have to rely on the birth families to enter the information in and keep up with it.

And I think that a lot of times like

you're 16 and you're giving a child out for adoption, you don't really have a medical history because you're 16.

Like nothing's really happened to you yet.

Right.

I filled out whatever data.

But you don't really know.

You know what happened to your parents and stuff, but like you personally don't really have much.

So it's something that has to be ongoing.

There has to be a way to anonymously update the system as time goes on.

Like I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease at 35 years old.

So I would have never known about it, but it's genetic.

So I would have to be able to go back into a system and be able to update that and people will be able to look at it as life goes on.

But I mean, these systems need to exist

because we have no rights.

Adoptees have absolutely no rights at all whatsoever, like basic human rights to access our information.

They're forced into it.

have no choice, which is why.

Oh, I was five days old, I didn't consent to being an adopted, right?

Right, I had no decision.

I had no choice in the matter, I had no choice in losing my medical history, my family, everything.

I lost everything, and I wasn't able to get it back until I was 18 years old.

That's 18 years of my life where I had no idea where I came from, who in my family existed, what my medical history was, like, just nothing.

Which isn't fair.

It's like you said, like, how you lost everything.

Tyler and I always say that the adoptees, most of all, and the birth parents lose everything.

Yes.

While the adoptive parents literally are gaining everything.

They lose nothing.

They lose nothing.

And I think that...

But they love to talk about their loss.

I know.

Yeah, they do.

Yes.

It's very like losing.

I mean, during that same interview where Brandon was talking about the fear of her wanting to have a relationship with you,

all we heard about was Teresa's loss and the infertility and the loss and the infertility and the loss.

And it's like, you need to heal that before you take on someone else's child.

Right.

I agree.

Like if you're literally crying about the fact that you can't have your own child, you're not ready to take on someone else's child.

If you're literally in tears,

crying about the fact that you can't have your own child, you're not going to do someone else's child justice.

Right.

You're just getting them to fill the void of not being able to have your own child.

Yep.

Which isn't child-centered.

No, and they're going to know it.

They're going to know it.

There's no way.

It's supposed to be adoption.

I mean, child-centered, yes.

So I think,

what was I going to say?

So I think people that are like, whether you're listening or watching, and if you're interested in learning more, and I think everybody should take even just five minutes out of their day to educate themselves about adoptees and listen to adoptees.

If you go to TikTok, you can search, you know, like adoptee talk or adoptee talk or anything like that and just listen to what these people are saying.

I think it's very educational and just try to put yourselves in their shoes and understand where they're coming from.

Obviously, this is our first podcast with our first adoptee and one of our friends, and it's very important to be talked about.

And I just want to say thank you, Aaron, for always being vulnerable, always being there, always helping educate us, you know, and always allowing Ty and I to ask like an adoptee questions so that we can learn and make sure we're kind of navigating in the right way.

Yeah, because we message you the same day and I even know it.

I know.

And then now we're all like, she's our adoptee mom.

That's what we're going to call her, you know.

But like, seriously, just.

for you being vulnerable and coming on and talking.

And I think, I think what we're all trying to do is very important work.

And I hope, you know, I'm hoping this won't be the last time that you're on, just the first time.

And I hope that you guys don't get discouraged by people telling you not to talk about adoption in a negative way.

And I know that.

And I also want to point out the fact that people

say all the time that you say negative things about Carly's parents and you say negative things about adoption.

And I've been talking to you guys for a year now, and I've literally never heard you say a negative word about

their parents.

Even in private.

Even in private.

Like even

though you're not right, right.

You're not out here bad-mouthing people.

You're not out here bad-mouthing adoption.

You're just trying to educate people so that they can be healthier in the ways that they're raising their adopted children.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

You're using your voice to help advocate for your daughter.

Really, really amazing.

I mean, and I think that that's a beautiful thing.

And I think that a lot of adoptees can relate to you and really appreciate you because we see how much you love your daughter.

And we all wish that we had that.

So, like, for us, having you in our community has been like a really beautiful thing because it gives us hope.

I mean, it really does.

It gives us hope that like

our parents wanted us.

You know what I mean?

That they will fight for us and that they will advocate for the adoption community that she's a part of.

I mean, at the end of the day, she's a part of that.

Yeah, I don't want people to think that we're coming here trampling all over.

You know, it's that we're asserting ourselves.

Like, we're just trying to, yeah.

Make a platform that people can hear.

Right.

And I mean, right, because people are going to be giving their children up for adoption.

Like, that's not going to stop.

So how can we help them be better parents to their adoption?

Therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy.

Find a trauma-informed therapist that understands adoption.

You have an adopted child.

So I'm hoping this won't be the last time, but just a lot of people.

I would love to come back.

Yes, definitely.

I'm excited to see you talk to all the other adoptees that are coming through.

You have some really good guests coming on.

Thank you, Erin.

Thank you.

Thank you, guys.

You're the best.

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