The Adoptee's Voice: Erin Calls for Reform of the Adoption System

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Speaker 9 All right, guys. Welcome back to Kate and Ty Break It Down.
Today we're super excited.

Speaker 9 Aaron. We have our friend Aaron.

Speaker 9 We actually have been friends on TikTok for a while now, and we talk to each other very regularly.

Speaker 2 All the time, I feel like we talk all the time. Yep.

Speaker 9 And so we're just so excited to have you here.

Speaker 10 I'm so happy to be here, guys. I'm so happy to finally get to see you in person and be here in front of you.

Speaker 5 We always joke around like Aaron's like our adoptee mom.

Speaker 2 That's what we call you.

Speaker 10 I know, and I'm like, I'm like, I feel like you guys are like my kids at this point. I'm like, I always, like, I just want to help you guys, and like, you know what I mean?

Speaker 10 You're just such good people, and I always enjoy talking to you guys so much. So it's been really nice to get to know you guys.
Same.

Speaker 5 Well, you're the first adoptee that we were interviewing. So

Speaker 5 we feel honored that you're the first one.

Speaker 2 I feel honored to be here.

Speaker 10 I really do. I'm just, I'm blown away by this whole thing and being able to talk about this at this platform.
It's really, it's amazing.

Speaker 5 Well, did you ever like, did you ever like expect talking about it on TikTok to even do anything?

Speaker 10 No, and I honestly just started talking about it on TikTok to find the community. Like, I really didn't ever expect to become an advocate or for anybody to even listen or care about what I had to say.

Speaker 10 I genuinely just did it for my own personal, you know, my own personal stuff. I just wanted to find other people that had a similar experience.

Speaker 10 I was really just coming out of the fog myself a few years back when I started getting on TikTok.

Speaker 2 Just a few years ago? Yeah, it really, really.

Speaker 10 I mean, honestly, honestly, my best friend was the one that really brought me out of the fog and started like giving me information and showing me things.

Speaker 10 And I, you know, when I got on TikTok, I was still a little bit in the fog, I feel like.

Speaker 10 And it's watching videos from the TikTok community, from the adoptee community, that really brought me out completely and allowed me to start advocating for other adoptees.

Speaker 9 So if people don't know who you are,

Speaker 9 can you kind of tell a breakdown of like who you are, where you came from, a little bit of your story?

Speaker 10 Sure.

Speaker 10 My name is Erin, and I was adopted adopted as an infant at five days old. My adoption story is a little bit crazy.

Speaker 10 My birth mother had two children before me.

Speaker 10 And when she got pregnant with me, her OBGYN basically was like, well, you already have two kids. You're not really taking great care of them.

Speaker 10 I really want a baby. Why don't you just let me adopt your baby?

Speaker 10 So she went through the entire pregnancy with the assumption that she was going to adopt, that I was going to be adopted out to the OBGYN, the doctor that was to deliver me.

Speaker 10 When I was born, I was born addicted to speed, and the OBGYN's husband was like, absolutely not. I do not want a baby that is drug addicted.
They just foresaw problems happening in the future.

Speaker 10 So I was kind of just left in the wind.

Speaker 10 They were going through the same lawyer that my adoptive parents had adopted my brother through two and a half years before.

Speaker 10 So they basically just called the lawyer and they said, do you have any other adoptive parents that have gone through the process, have been been approved, and are waiting for another child?

Speaker 10 He just pulled the file, called my dad, my adopted dad, and said, Hey, we have this baby girl sitting here. Do you want her? My dad said, Sure.

Speaker 10 And it's funny, he was actually supposed to give a speech overseas at a convention, and he didn't go because they were going to pick me up at the lawyer's office.

Speaker 10 And there was a terrorist attack, and everybody that was in the row that he would have been sitting in was killed.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 10 they say, you know, he always tells me that I saved his life by being born and by like just the way the circumstances happened, you know, it ended up saving his life. So that's intense.

Speaker 10 Yeah, it's really intense.

Speaker 5 Wait, so the lawyer office, how does that work? So they, so you're born and the OBGYN's husband's like, no. And then where do you go from there? You go to the business.

Speaker 10 I was in the NICU because I was born addicted to drugs. So I was in the NICU for a while.
My records show that. And then they released me.

Speaker 10 The lawyer secretary came and picked me up from the hospital.

Speaker 9 And like, how long were you with this lawyer's secretary?

Speaker 10 Do you even know home? I don't know.

Speaker 10 I guess just from the time they left the hospital and they brought me to the lawyer's office, and I have pictures of my adoptive mom, them handing me to her in the office.

Speaker 5 So they signed off, like, so because in order for the lawyer or secretary to pick up a baby, that's you know, totally relevant to her, they had to have your mom had your bio mom had to have signed something, right?

Speaker 10 Yeah, I'm assuming she, according to her, I actually just met her last year, and according to her, she gave birth and literally, like, within hours, was like, I'm leaving.

Speaker 10 She said, I couldn't even be in the hospital with you because I was so upset that

Speaker 10 I couldn't be there. She actually left, she went home, and had to come back because she was was bleeding.
Like they, she almost bled to death when she went home.

Speaker 10 So she did end up back at the hospital, but I was already, you know, like had been taken away or wherever I was.

Speaker 10 But yeah, it was.

Speaker 2 That's crazy.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 10 I mean, the part about it that really upsets me, I think, is the fact that the OBGYN was like, well, I want a baby. I was just going to say that.
And you're a teen mom, and you know what I mean?

Speaker 10 You are already not doing so great with the first two that you have. Let me just take your baby.
And like, literally, like, the entire time was like giving her care, giving her money.

Speaker 5 It was so weird to me.

Speaker 10 Because it was coercion. I mean, it was more than a manipulation.

Speaker 5 It was predatory. I mean, for an OBGYN, a professional to.

Speaker 10 And I think back then it was pretty normal for OBGYNs to offer this stuff?

Speaker 9 Wow. Because I would have been so turned off.
I would have been like, whoa, I'm never seeing you again after I leave here. Like, that's creepy.

Speaker 10 But then there was my birth mom who was like living in a basement in her parents' house with like no power, no heat, like two kids like living on a floor.

Speaker 10 And she sees this doctor who's like probably in the community and has money and has this husband and this great house.

Speaker 10 And she's like, well, you're better, you know, this kid's probably better off with you anyway. So, like, you know what I mean? You're all you're presented with this situation.

Speaker 10 Like, what are you supposed to do?

Speaker 5 And obviously, you were born addicted. So, your mom obviously struggled.
I mean, she was struggling.

Speaker 2 She was struggling. Yeah.

Speaker 10 I mean, and this is a good place to say that many things can be true in adoption. I can acknowledge the fact that I would not have been better off had I not been placed in an adoptive home.

Speaker 10 If I had been raised by my birth mother, I would have had a very hard life. I had eight siblings, and they were all removed over time from my birth family.
Into foster care.

Speaker 2 Into foster care.

Speaker 10 Okay.

Speaker 10 Group homes, such things.

Speaker 10 Except for the youngest, who somehow was able to stay with my mom.

Speaker 10 She had kind of gotten it together enough that they never removed him. But I can acknowledge the fact that I would not have had an easy life in my birth family.

Speaker 10 Also, while saying that I didn't have the greatest life in my adopted family either. Like two things can be true.

Speaker 10 Like just because you go to a wealthier family that has giving you more opportunity doesn't mean that you're still missing where you came from and people that you know mirror you and that you can mirror and genetically and you uh your adoption was a closed adoption it was a closed adoption and my mom actually my adoptive mom actually lied to me um and my i know my dad never really said anything he just kind of stayed to the side um he was a very passive human being but my adoptive mom always told me that my my files were sealed i was not allowed to have any information until i was 18.

Speaker 10 that was the law is what i was told i never like knew any different to question it or to like ask questions about it it.

Speaker 10 I just assumed, oh, the law is that you know, if you're a minor, you aren't allowed to have this information. I just, that was what I thought.

Speaker 10 She passed away not long after I turned 18 and it kind of just like put everything to the side.

Speaker 10 I never, I just didn't really, like at that point, it wasn't like, oh, I'm going to go find my birth family. Like I was kind of dealing with other things.

Speaker 10 So I just never really... like did anything with it until I got into my 30s and I was like, you know what, I think I want to try to find my birth family.
But they did. I mean, they lied.

Speaker 10 They definitely did.

Speaker 9 And how did you find out about them lying and like it not being sealed and that you could have known?

Speaker 10 Well, they just, I mean, my, my, my dad just handed me the file one day.

Speaker 2 Oh, really? Holy shit.

Speaker 10 I was like, dad, I want to find my birth mom. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 And he was like, oh, I have that file somewhere.

Speaker 10 It's like, okay. And he literally just handed it to me.
And then I had the information. And I'm going through it and I'm looking at it.

Speaker 10 And I don't think I really processed it all because as I actually just found it again, like, I don't know, whenever I posted all that stuff about it, it was a few months back.

Speaker 10 But I don't even think I realized when I first looked at it that like the literal receipt for my adoption was in there. Like I could see all the costs, like what everything costs.

Speaker 10 And like my medical records from the hospital were in there. Like all of my mom's identifying information was in there.
I knew that she had given birth twice before me, that I had two siblings.

Speaker 5 Right off rip, I opened the file. You knew that.

Speaker 10 Right off the bat, all that information was right there.

Speaker 10 And so then I think like, okay, so my mom obviously saw that. So she knew all of these things about my birth mom.

Speaker 10 So all the times that she would tell me stories like, oh, you know, maybe she just loved you so much that she wanted wanted you to have a better life.

Speaker 10 Or like, oh, you know, all these stories and all these things that she would say like weren't true. And she knew that they weren't true because she had the information in front of her.

Speaker 10 You know what I mean? So there was definitely a feeling of betrayal once I found out all of these things.

Speaker 5 Well, you said 18 years old is when after she passed and then you didn't do anything till 30.

Speaker 2 I mean, that's a whole decade.

Speaker 5 So like what that whole decade were you just kind of like...

Speaker 10 I was very much in the fog and I was very much of the opinion that like, oh, my parents that raised me are my parents and I don't need anything else and I don't need to know where I came from because it's not relevant and like a lot of the things that people in the fog say like they really truly don't think that it matters where they came from because they had a good life and they or they felt as though they had a good life so they don't feel the need to find you know well for people who don't know what is the fog so the for me the way I explain it is when you're a child and you're adopted everybody constantly tells you adoption is beautiful you should be grateful people saved you people wanted you they chose you you know your adoptive parents say things like i grew you in my heart or like you were were a gift from God or all.

Speaker 10 And it's always put in such a positive light, adoption.

Speaker 10 And as an adoptee, you feel that abandonment and you feel that loss and you feel that grief, but as a kid, you're not really sure what those feelings are.

Speaker 10 And you're told, no, no, no, not the, not that. It's beautiful.
You should be grateful. Everything about it is beautiful.
You were saved. Now look at this great life that you get to have.

Speaker 10 So that's the narrative that you choose to go with because it's easier to deal with.

Speaker 10 And it's much easier to internalize negative feelings about grief and loss and abandonment than it is to accept them and try to talk about them, especially when a lot of adoptive parents are not willing to talk to you about them.

Speaker 10 A lot of adoptive parents don't want to talk about the negative feelings that you have towards your adoption. So you do internalize them.
And then as you get older, that's what we call the fog.

Speaker 10 You end up regurgitating the narrative that adoption is beautiful. I was saved.
Adoption saves people. People use adoption to build these beautiful families.

Speaker 10 And that's what you're telling everybody else. But internally, you have this like struggle where you're like, I don't know.

Speaker 5 almost feel like you're not allowed to feel that way.

Speaker 10 Right. You're not allowed to feel that way because it's beautiful.

Speaker 9 And which is beautiful.

Speaker 9 And which is sad because I feel like as parents, I would want my child to come and speak to me and not worry about how I'm going to react about things that are going to hurt you.

Speaker 9 Like if it hurts my feelings a little bit, I'm going to keep that to myself, but we're going to process this together and figure out how I can help you with whatever you're feeling.

Speaker 9 Like healthy parents do that for their children.

Speaker 5 Yeah, because a lot of people don't know what the fog is, and it's fear, obligation, and guilt.

Speaker 5 And that's the, so it's like those three things are exactly what you're talking about like your fear i'm obligated to make sure my adoptive parents know that i'm yay i love this and then the guilt for even feeling internalized feelings of i kind of don't feel right about certain things or whatever and it's like you almost i every time i hear people explain it it's like adoptees are almost like forced to put themselves in the on the back burner like how they you know what i mean in order to make sure all the adults yeah we're responsible for their feelings right absolutely as an adoptee you are 100 responsible for the adults' feelings around you.

Speaker 2 I hate that.

Speaker 10 I hate that. But I mean, it just is what it is.
It's why I'm hyper-responsible now. It's why I am the way that I am, though, is because I always felt responsible for other people's feelings.

Speaker 10 I never wanted to say anything that was going to upset my adoptive mom, and she was super sensitive about things.

Speaker 2 She was.

Speaker 10 Oh, yeah, because anytime anybody would say things like, oh, you look like your mom, and I would say, oh, that's, I'm adopted. I can't look like my mom.

Speaker 10 You know, and she would go, she would launch into the, oh, I saved her from this and that, and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 10 And it was always like this whole thing, but she couldn't stand it when I would correct people and say, no, I don't look like her. It's not like, I couldn't possibly look like her.

Speaker 10 She's not biologically my mom. You're speaking facts.

Speaker 2 You're not trying to say that.

Speaker 10 Right, to me, it was, to me, like that was just common sense. It was just me being like, no, I really don't look like her.
Like, that's a weird thing to say.

Speaker 10 And other people just being like, oh, and then like people kind of get like uncomfortable when you say that. You know what I mean? So then there's that.

Speaker 10 So then as a kid, you realize that you're making other people uncomfortable when you talk about your adoption, when you say, I don't look like my family, and you make them feel uncomfortable.

Speaker 5 And so you're all of a sudden responsible responsible for everybody else's feelings so you just talk about that positive happy experience that you have with the doctor well and plus that's all you're taught growing up from a young kid that's all you're hearing like you said all around you we saved you it's beautiful you have look at this great life so of course a kid that's heard that their whole life they're gonna grow up saying those exact same things yes I feel like the amount of pressure is so unfair like that that to literally be a kid didn't choose to be adopted now I have to also deal with my own identity stuff internally not express it to anybody and also make sure I emotionally monitor all these adults in the the situation.

Speaker 2 That is literally all the time.

Speaker 10 Like, you go to school, and they're like, you go to school, your teacher's like, all right, it's family tree day, and you're like, oh, well, which family do I choose?

Speaker 10 Like, and then the teacher's like, well, the family that's raising you. Like, and they act like you're crazy for even questioning which family to use.
Right. And then you're like, well, what?

Speaker 10 And then you're like, well, I don't really know where my other family is from. And then you're sitting there and you're like, where is my other family from? What, you know, am I Irish? Am I Italian?

Speaker 10 Am I this? Am I that? What's their last name? And like, you're sitting there.

Speaker 10 And like, I was always just so distracted when we were doing things like that, when it involved like any type of talking about any type of family that like because my brain would just wander into like well I have another family somewhere else I don't know anything about them but I know that they exist you know so there's just so much confusion as a child and if you don't have a healthy outlet for that you internalize it and again adoptees internalize so much we're just expected to do so and that's where the fog comes from

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Speaker 5 and I feel like it's almost like you said it's it's um it's easier for adoptees to stay in the fog because it's hard to like because once you open the door you can't go backwards you know you can't go back into the fog once you're out of it it's a wrap like so it's almost like they hold on to it in a way to keep them like safe and so yeah and I just feel like that and they love to stop and tell us about and listen yeah listen I love when people have happy adoptions.

Speaker 10 I am the biggest, when people have good, healthy, loving families that became educated and trauma-informed, and they're raising these adoptees correctly.

Speaker 10 And they allow them in their biofamilies and they encourage them and they support them. I love hearing good, happy adoption stories.

Speaker 10 People always tell us, oh, you guys don't want to hear happy adoption stories. Yes, we do.
We just don't necessarily believe them all the time.

Speaker 10 We don't necessarily believe what you're saying is accurate about your adoption because you're in the fog.

Speaker 10 And then we're told all the time that we're being negative and that we're like, we're not, we're not allowing other adoptees to have their voice. But it's not, we're just basically saying like, guys.

Speaker 10 Maybe just look a little bit further into what happened to you and to like why you stopped to tell the entire internet that you don't have trauma.

Speaker 10 Because healthy, healed people aren't going to stop on a video about adoption trauma and tell them, oh, I had a great adoption.

Speaker 2 I don't have trauma at all. They're just going to keep scrolling.

Speaker 5 Right, but they get defensive.

Speaker 10 They get defensive because they know. They know deep down that they have abandonment and loss and grief and they have those internalized issues that they never dealt with.

Speaker 5 And also if they hadn't have an environment that nurtured the expression of those things, then of course they're so used to keeping it inside, which is just like, I just feel like learning the last couple of years about like how adoptees just like that has to affect everything growing up, how I make relationships work with every aspect of it.

Speaker 5 Every aspect, because you're constantly emotionally modern, which in my opinion, it's like a version of like you're self-betraying in order to keep everyone comfortable.

Speaker 5 And that's always gonna backfire. That's all that's never gonna be good for you.

Speaker 5 So it's like and to not even believe that you have the freedom to express it is crazy because I we've gotten so much backlash like and I don't know if these adoptees are in the fog or not.

Speaker 5 I'm not sure, but they are very aggressive. I try to be not aggressive.

Speaker 10 Anybody that's aggressive towards you for trying to speak the truth about adoption is just very unhealed.

Speaker 10 If they aren't even receptive to listening, then it's then they're in the fog. I mean, it's

Speaker 10 not even wanting to understand something further further that has affected your life in such a great way and is really just very prevalent in your life.

Speaker 10 That's where the fog comes from. That's the only way I can really explain it.
And like you said, like the only way that I can really explain being adopted is I feel like I'm in a room full of people.

Speaker 10 And like, I'll get along and I'll talk to everybody and like I'll figure everybody out and like whatever. But I never feel like I like belong in the room.
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 10 Like I always feel like I'm kind of like on the outside of everything looking in and I don't ever really make those connections with people, like really strong, deep connections.

Speaker 5 Almost like detached a little bit.

Speaker 10 I'm very detached, absolutely. And most adoptees that I talk to are very detached.

Speaker 9 And you think that's because, like, you're subconsciously a fear, like, afraid of somebody leaving?

Speaker 10 Or yeah. Oh, yeah, there's always going to be that internalized fear of abandonment.
Yeah. Because the person that was supposed to love me most on earth literally just gave me to somebody else.
Right.

Speaker 10 Do you know what I mean? And that's when, I don't know why people deny trauma from adoption. Right.
I don't know either.

Speaker 10 Your life started with the person who was supposed to love you the most giving you away to somebody else.

Speaker 2 They came in.

Speaker 10 They gave you away. That's grief.
That's loss.

Speaker 10 To not understand why people would have a negative feeling about that, it doesn't make sense to me. Like, I just don't understand.

Speaker 5 And you can also have a positive adoption experience and also be traumatized as a pre-verbal trauma baby.

Speaker 9 Or you could have like a positive adoption, but also struggle with certain things and have feelings and emotions, and that's okay too.

Speaker 5 But what I'm hearing a lot from adoptites is they don't think it's either black or white.

Speaker 2 You can't be true. Oh, right.
You know what I mean? Two things can't be true at once.

Speaker 5 I mean, they're really happy with my adoption or i'm not and it's like well what about you you know you can still have the perfect adoptive parents had the perfect you know being raised and and raised in an environment that nurture everything and you can still have fear obligation and guilt and it's one of those things where it's like like you said like why are you screaming at me mine was great you're wrong it's like well dude like and my whole thing is that like why are why would you minimize their experience you are in the same community you're in the same minority group so if i had a really good experience you had a bad one i want to kind of hush my and let you, because you had a bad one.

Speaker 5 And I think that's prioritized, right?

Speaker 9 You should. And asking questions and learning.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we're curious. Right.

Speaker 10 Like, how do you know? And why should we not talk about the bad ones just because somebody had a good one? Shouldn't it be the opposite?

Speaker 10 Shouldn't we be like quiet about the good ones until all of them are good? Yep. Why shouldn't we talk about the bad ones until they're all good?

Speaker 10 Because right now, adoptees are eight times more likely to be abused.

Speaker 10 Right now, it's a $25 billion industry. Like, you don't, you want me to believe that there's not like weird, crazy things going on in a $25 billion industry where people are literally buying children.

Speaker 10 Like, you know what I mean? Like, the fact that, like, people don't want you to talk about it is absolutely crazy to me.

Speaker 10 They just don't even want to acknowledge that maybe there's something else going on.

Speaker 9 Well, no, and that's why it shows that it needs to be talked about more.

Speaker 9 And Tyler and I said just the few podcasts that we recorded yesterday was like, you know, until every single adoptee can say, I had a very open adoption, I felt very secure, I could express my feelings, you know, all of the adults were a safe place.

Speaker 9 Like, until every single adoptee can say that, then there needs to be change because all of them are still broken.

Speaker 10 And then everyone's like, well, what do you want me to do? Just like throw the kids in an orphanage?

Speaker 2 And it's like, that's what they say. They say the craziest stuff.

Speaker 10 They're like, oh, we're just going to, wish we just throw them in a river. I'm like, yeah, let's just throw them in the river.
Like, let's just

Speaker 10 dispose of that. Like, no, like, we, people don't seem to understand that.
Like, we're calling for reform of the system. Like, we're calling for reform.
We want. people to have be educated.

Speaker 10 We want people who are adopting children or putting people in their home for a safe environment to be educated on trauma and where they came from and the things that they're going to be experiencing.

Speaker 10 So without being able to do that and then taking money out of the equation,

Speaker 10 why is there any money being exchanged for human life? Like that just makes it unethical to begin with.

Speaker 2 It does, right?

Speaker 5 And I actually just learned that, like, I had someone, an adoptee write me from Australia and said, it is unheard of here.

Speaker 5 Adoption agencies are illegal in our country. And I was like, that's making you think, like, wow, Bethany would be illegal.
Their operation operation would be illegal in this country.

Speaker 10 Because adoption in Australia is a very last resort.

Speaker 10 They support birth mothers.

Speaker 10 They support women within their society so that they don't have to give children up for adoption. There's resources.
There's resources. They give women resources so that they can keep their children.

Speaker 10 It's literally a last resort. And they say in this country, there's studies that show that 97% of birth mothers want to keep their child.

Speaker 10 They say that $5,000 is the difference between being able to keep your child and feeling safe and secure and support it and feeling like you need to give your child to somebody else. $5,000.

Speaker 9 When in turn, they're paying $50,000 to adopt a child.

Speaker 5 And also getting a $16,000 tax credit for adopting. Like, that's insane to me right there.
The fact that you're giving a tax credit to adoptive parents who are already kind of

Speaker 5 ahead of the game with

Speaker 5 wealthy,

Speaker 5 but you're not going to help the poverty-stricken birth mom who feels stuck. Like, this is, we're so backwards by who we're prioritizing in this whole little system.
It's like, it's insane.

Speaker 5 And when I found out that it was illegal to have adoption agencies, and she even wrote, she's like, because our country believes commodifying any children or any human life is wrong.

Speaker 5 And I'm like, holy shit.

Speaker 10 Australia's adoption system is really well, is really well run. We could learn a lot from

Speaker 10 their social system.

Speaker 5 And I think in general, but I think people don't want to, when I, they get offended when I say industry. Yeah.
It's not industry. It's like, well, it is industry.

Speaker 2 It is.

Speaker 10 It's worth $25 billion. When something's worth that much money, it is an industry.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 It is absolutely. absolutely interesting.

Speaker 5 And people are going to manipulate to protect that money interest. They're going to do lots of things to make sure that stays flowing.

Speaker 10 When I talk about adoption reform, I regularly say that you're probably not going to be able to get your hands in a $25 billion industry and make change on that side of it.

Speaker 10 You have to take away the supply. So you have to make the change on the side of where are the babies coming from for adoption.

Speaker 10 How do we help the people that are having these babies keep their children so that we don't need safe external care for other children?

Speaker 5 We should be prioritizing family preservation and that money should be going to that stuff instead of

Speaker 2 tax credits for adopted parents who are already wealthy enough to buy a baby.

Speaker 2 We're backwards.

Speaker 9 I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 10 I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 5 But you didn't go through an agency, right?

Speaker 2 No, my parents just had a private lawyer.

Speaker 10 That was pretty common in the 70s and 80s was just private lawyers and there weren't a lot of adoption agencies at that point.

Speaker 10 You know, there was, you know, Georgia Tan was going through neighborhoods and finding low-income people and saying, hey, you're pregnant. Let me just scoop your baby.

Speaker 10 And, you know, here we're going to make your life so much better and this baby's life so much better like literally walking the streets and taking infants from people it's been predatory from the beginning yeah and at the end of the day it's just a really predatory industry it is and i mean you guys are prime examples of being coerced and manipulated and not having adult support and not having people in your lives that were like able to like say hey we can support you if you keep your child like this is what we can do for you to help you keep your own child like you guys are prime examples and it was very public how how manipulation and coercion happens, especially with open adoption.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 5 I mean open adoption is the number one coercion tactic that's used as far as and I think people look like it's a beautiful thing that we've we've uh evolved from the old clothes stuff we've actually gotten better.

Speaker 9 It's like it's not it's because it's they they created open adoption because there was a lack of infants being placed. And so they were like we need a different idea.

Speaker 9 We need a different way to go about this.

Speaker 5 We need a prettier bow to put on it so people, yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 10 But then they didn't give any legal rights to the people who gave birth to the child, which just seems so backwards to me.

Speaker 10 Why wouldn't the people who gave birth to the child have legal rights to the child? In all reality,

Speaker 10 it should be enforceable on both sides because the power dynamic is what creates the coercion and the manipulation.

Speaker 10 The power dynamic is really unhealthy and it's really unhealthy for the child.

Speaker 5 And I also think the paperwork that's not legally enforceable, then what else is the paperwork besides a coercive thing?

Speaker 10 I mean, that's all it is.

Speaker 10 When you're sitting there signing paperwork, but you have somebody in your ear telling you you're in the driver's seat, it's going to look exactly how you want it to look, but legally you can't enforce that.

Speaker 10 Like, what are you supposed to expect? You're trusting that these adults are telling you the truth, and you're trusting that these adults want what's best for the child,

Speaker 10 knowing that you guys being in their life is what's best for them.

Speaker 10 You know what I mean? Like, children who have their healthy biological parents in their lives are going to be more successful.

Speaker 10 They have those genetic mirrors, they know where they came from, they aren't questioning everything about their lives, they aren't having all of the negative sides of adoption that adopt these enclosed adoptions have.

Speaker 10 Like, it's just a healthier situation for them in general. But you get insecure adoptive parents.
Yeah.

Speaker 9 Fearful.

Speaker 2 Fearful.

Speaker 5 Not common for them. Not

Speaker 5 healed.

Speaker 10 Not child-centered.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 10 If you're right off the bat saying that I want to adopt a child to build my family,

Speaker 10 you're not a child-centered human being.

Speaker 10 You are not centering the child in adoption. You are centering your need to be a parent and to build your family.
You shouldn't be adopting to build your family.

Speaker 10 You should be adopting to provide safe external care to a child that needs it. Because that's what it is.
That's centering the child. That's what it's designed for.

Speaker 10 It's not there to build your family.

Speaker 10 And it shouldn't be used.

Speaker 5 And I think people get that very confused because they're like, when they say, oh, so I'm not allowed, like people who will be negative and write me and stuff.

Speaker 5 And they're like, oh, so I'm not allowed to desire my own kid. And I said, I didn't say that.

Speaker 10 Nobody owes you their kids.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I never told you you can't have a desire to have your own child. I'm saying you don't have to participate in a predatory corrupt system.
to do that. And you know, like it's

Speaker 10 nobody owes you a child. And you know what I mean? You're building your family using someone else's crisis.
That's not an ethical way to build your family. This woman over here is in crisis.

Speaker 10 She's not, you know what I mean? And then there's the people that

Speaker 10 adopt the children and they're posting the babies online before the birth mother is even out of the hospital.

Speaker 2 Oh,

Speaker 10 that one really Adelaide White. You want to talk about Adelaide White?

Speaker 5 Which one is that one? I don't know. There's a couple that I've seen.

Speaker 10 She's my, like, she's the bane of my existence.

Speaker 10 She's a content. content creator on on TikTok.
Okay. And she went through the whole IBF thing and then they ended up adopting a baby.

Speaker 10 And literally before they they like left the hospital and they're on tick tock with the baby the mother is the birth mother is still recovering in probably in the recovery room and they're posting this baby on on tick tock and and now it's just their whole entire platform is tick tock and adopt or on tick tock is adoption and you know you know this adopted baby and showing this adopted baby to the world.

Speaker 10 But like, the baby's literally, like, you're literally showing a child that's in like the, in crisis. You know what I mean? Like, this child was just born, just removed from its mother.

Speaker 10 It's, It's experiencing maternal separation. And here you are, like exploiting it to the world.

Speaker 9 And I was going to say, like, and I think that people just look at it like, oh, it's just a baby.

Speaker 9 And it's like, yeah, but you don't re-if you look at the studies, like, those babies are actually, they're suffering. Right.
That's why they can't, they're unconsolable.

Speaker 2 They're crying all the time.

Speaker 9 Don't want to eat because they don't have the smell. They don't have the same heartbeat.
Nothing. It's not normal or natural to them.
It's heartbreaking.

Speaker 2 It's a stranger.

Speaker 10 It's a little stranger. You're giving it, like, that's what people don't seem to understand.

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Speaker 10 That's uncommon goods.com slash kate and tie for 15 off uncommon goods we're all out of the ordinary when when adoptive parents want to be in the hospital there's no benefit for the child right at all whatsoever you going into a different room with that child and putting that child on a complete stranger doesn't do anything for that child it doesn't regulate that child's needs in any way shape or form it provides a warm you know chest for them to lay on but it but it's not the mom's smell it's not there's no chemical there's no chemical bond there's no there's no you know the mother's smell.

Speaker 10 It's not the same thing. And it's predatory.

Speaker 10 We were talking about Siobhan earlier. She's on TikTok, first mom, birth mom, and she's one of the most amazing human beings ever.
But her story,

Speaker 10 the adoptive parents were in the delivery room. The adoptive father is holding her leg

Speaker 10 while the baby is exiting her body.

Speaker 9 Didn't he even cut the umbilical cord?

Speaker 10 He cut the umbilical cord. There's pictures of him holding her leg while she's holding the spread eagle on the table.
The baby's coming out and he's holding her leg.

Speaker 9 And she said from the beginning she didn't want them in the room.

Speaker 10 She didn't want them in the room. They insisted.

Speaker 2 Dude, that is

Speaker 2 so.

Speaker 10 They're cosplaying birth.

Speaker 9 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like some hands

Speaker 2 literally. It's a handmade tail shit.
It's handmade and tail shit.

Speaker 5 Yeah. That is so...
I did not. See that.

Speaker 10 But that's not uncommon.

Speaker 2 No, it's not.

Speaker 10 They want to be there because they can't have that experience for themselves, but they're taking it away from the person who's actually having the experience.

Speaker 10 And I can't even imagine how uncomfortable it is to have, like, dude, some random guy.

Speaker 5 I actually saw a TikTok video of the adoptive parents in a hospital room, and the nurse brings in their baby, and the baby is unconsolable, crying.

Speaker 2 Yes, yes.

Speaker 5 And they're trying to get a video, and you can tell the mom's like, Oh, what's going on?

Speaker 9 She's really upset.

Speaker 5 Like, I'm, you know, and it's like, and watching it, like, it literally got me emotional because I'm like, oh my God, that baby wants that baby wants its mom.

Speaker 5 And they, and the baby knows this is not my mom. Oh, 100%.

Speaker 5 And so when a baby is born with, you know, specific survival instincts, they're immediately going to be unconsolable because it's, it's, they know they're with strangers.

Speaker 5 And I thought in my head, I'm like, whoa, I never thought about, you know, the daughter we relinquished. Like, what was she doing in the nursery?

Speaker 9 Like, she was. Well, thank God she was in the nursery for like 30 minutes.
And I was like, she needs to come to you.

Speaker 5 Yeah, we were like, yeah,

Speaker 2 I held on to her for three days as much as I could. Yeah.

Speaker 5 But watching that video, like, and you're right, the adoptive parents had some, one of their friends filming it because they thought it was going to be this, like people

Speaker 5 like we got our baby and the baby knew who I was and this and that but the baby has no idea who you are you're going to see the mom actually look at the camera like oh stop recording this isn't good and I'm like this is so sad it's because you're right they're not thinking about the baby at all they're not and they just think like oh it's a baby it has no clue and the issue

Speaker 10 they're there because they're afraid that the the birth mother is going to change her mind

Speaker 10 they're there because they're afraid the birth mother is going to hold the baby and bond with the baby and not want to relinquish the baby that's why they're there that's why they're pushing That's why they're like, hey, you've had enough time.

Speaker 2 Give us the baby.

Speaker 10 Because they don't want you to change your mind. To get connected.

Speaker 10 I mean, you, I mean, I have three children. I, I, when I, when you give birth, like your whole body just, it's, you're just different after you give birth.

Speaker 10 Like, you're, you're, you know, you're rushed with hormones and you're rushed with all these feelings and emotions and everything else. And as a birth mother, like,

Speaker 10 you should have that opportunity to like feel those feels and see your baby and bond with your baby and change your mind if you want to.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. It's your right to do that.

Speaker 10 It's your right to do that. And if they're sitting there holding your leg.
Yeah, right.

Speaker 10 Like, how are you supposed to be, feel comfortable changing your mind?

Speaker 2 And that's where

Speaker 9 the coercion comes in. Because then as a birth mom, you'll think to yourself, well, I don't want to hurt their feelings.
I've made all these promises to them and here they are in front of me.

Speaker 9 And if I change my mind, it's going to break their heart.

Speaker 2 I'm a huge advocate.

Speaker 9 So you know what, actually? Kudos to your fucking sister. I know.
Because

Speaker 9 his sister was going to choose an option for our niece. And, you know, she rolled in that room sobbing, but she looked right at him and said, I can't do it.

Speaker 2 And I'm taking her home.

Speaker 5 Oh, I love that. And the adoptive parents were so sweet.
They were like, honey, it's okay. Everything's in the same way.

Speaker 2 That's the only reaction they did.

Speaker 5 And the adoptive mom, or the, you know, she was going to be the adoptive mom. She's like, you're going to be a great mom.
Yeah. I know it.
And then they held their composure.

Speaker 2 When they left, they were both.

Speaker 5 And then when I watched them walk out of the hospital, I mean, she was just sobbing. So I'm not minimizing adoptive parents.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 5 Like, they have their own feelings

Speaker 5 and they are allowed to grieve.

Speaker 9 But I was just thinking and I'm like, damn, kudos to your sister because she was very emotional she didn't want to do it

Speaker 9 because of the fear of hurting their feelings

Speaker 5 she asked my mom to do it my mom's like honey you have to tell them yourself well let's talk about the fact that like pre-birth matching just shouldn't exist

Speaker 10 yeah you're absolutely right i mean why do we i mean you educated me on that when you talked to me about that i was like oh my gosh that makes so much sense right because all of a sudden if you like you you match with somebody and they're gonna be the parents and now they're having a baby shower and they're doing they're making a nursery and they got the car seat and all their friends are excited and they're doing gender reveals and how are you supposed to change your mind when you're literally watching this family have all these experiences expecting to get your baby and then you're like sitting there you're like well i can't change my mind now because it would just completely you know what i mean like it really takes away from your ability to keep your own child especially when i i'm especially back then too i was such a people pleaser right like i told like i told you like i'd be calling them on the phone like once a week like yeah like almost pep talking them yeah like don't worry i'm not gonna change my mind like it's good this is how it's gonna be and so for sure i would have been even if i wanted to change my mind it would have been super hard for me i think yeah Oh, 100%.

Speaker 10 100%. But she knew, I think they knew that that was the case.
And that's why they were rushing you to, you know what I mean? They wanted the baby in their hands, like ASAP.

Speaker 10 They wanted to be out of the hospital. You know, the exchange was in the parking lot.
Like, there was a lot of things about your situation that was, that was, but very common and very normal. Like,

Speaker 10 your situation is not abnormal. It's actually probably the most common story I hear with adoption.

Speaker 5 Which is crazy because it's so common, but we're the only, we just happen to be on TV, right? And people are like, they're able to see it.

Speaker 10 But you can see it. Like, you could see the rabbit look in the eye and you can see like you can see it happening in real time.

Speaker 10 Like just that incessant need to get the hands on the baby before anybody changes their mind.

Speaker 9 And I think it's super important that it was documented and documented like authentically. Oh, you know, because it's important for people to see it.

Speaker 9 It's important for people to see and even adoptees to see that maybe they might think that their birth parent didn't love them or care about them to see the struggles that we go through to see how freaking hard it is sometimes.

Speaker 9 Like all of that's important.

Speaker 5 Well, I've had a lot of adoptees write me and say that because of you guys being on the show and just watching you, I

Speaker 5 like had my hate and my anger and hatred towards my birth mom, I thought I had just dissipated because I was able to see her through you guys and like really know that I wasn't just throwing the river.

Speaker 10 I think your story is incredibly important for adoptees to see. I know personally, I wish that I had adoptive parents or I wish that I had birth parents like you.
I do.

Speaker 10 I wish that my birth parents cared and were healthy human beings and wanted to be a a part of my life and fought to be a part of my life.

Speaker 10 Like, I think a lot of adoptees see you and think, like, wow, maybe I have birth parents waiting for me that are like that too.

Speaker 10 Or like, maybe my, like, because a lot of the closed adoptions, like, we really don't know what's waiting for us on the other side.

Speaker 10 So, like, I think that you give a lot of adoptees hope that maybe there are like good adoptive or good birth parents on the other side because there are so many like really negative reunion stories.

Speaker 10 Like, there's

Speaker 2 a lot

Speaker 10 there are a lot of really unhealthy birth families that just never really got it together and are not,

Speaker 10 it doesn't go well when there's a reunion.

Speaker 9 And it goes back to because in the beginning,

Speaker 9 society failed them.

Speaker 2 Honestly, I feel that they failed.

Speaker 10 Oh, 100%. Like, my birth mother was 100% failed.
She was failed by everybody in her entire life. Like, she had a really hard life starting as a child and then just was never able to recover.

Speaker 10 So, like, I, you know, I give her some grace and I give her some, I, I give her understanding. Like, I totally understand.
Like, I have no ill feelings towards her.

Speaker 10 But, like, I feel as though that's a lot of birth mothers have

Speaker 10 that makes me want to like I'll be your birth moment I will be anybody's birth mom like that makes me really kind of emotional like that's sad I just but I just think it's so important that you guys are speaking out despite the negative things that people have to say to you because for adoptees I think that you're giving adoptees hope that maybe there's somebody waiting for us out there that cares about us and loves us and wants to be a part of our life.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean?

Speaker 10 Because it's scary because you don't know.

Speaker 10 And I know growing up, my mom would always say things to me like, oh, well, you know, maybe maybe they moved on with their life and had another family and you're just gonna be like bothering

Speaker 10 that was but in the same breath she would say things like it would be like oh well maybe she was a drug addict and couldn't take care of you and this or but then like or in the same breath it would be like the other thing like maybe she has this great life now and you're just gonna be like disturbing her life and so like that's gonna make me feel like shit as a kid exactly 100% and then but then I was always thinking like do I really want to like look for them because I you know what I mean like again like you don't want I would feel awful if I like found my birth mother and her she had all these kids and husband that didn't know about me and then like it like ruined her life you know what I mean right you don't want to ruin and hopefully I don't ever give bad advice but I mean there are adoptees that write me and they'll say like I just don't know if my you know if they love me or they care and my response is always like I can tell you one thing right now that no matter what is going on in your birth mom's life that she loves you

Speaker 9 Like even with your birth mom, like she might have not made good decisions in her life and you know messed up in certain ways, but I know as a birth mom, deep in your soul like you love your children all your children deeply she definitely told me like i felt like a piece of me was missing my whole life and like she you know she did eventually like blame her drug problem on me not being there

Speaker 2 it was a very odd situation but it was a very odd situation

Speaker 10 but she yeah but like it was more or less like you know a big you weren't there and you know my life was never the same and i never was able to get my act together because i felt like something was missing was kind of the issue of the moment.

Speaker 9 And it's like, honey, I wouldn't have been able to save you. Like, that's your journey, too.

Speaker 5 Well, that's also not fair either because I think even that's an example of a birth parent playing on that fear, obligation, and guilt that you

Speaker 10 have to have. We get it from all angles.
The adoptee really does get it from all angles. It's, it's, in the triad, we are definitely the ones that...
I think take the brunt of the negative negativity.

Speaker 9 And that's why it all needs to change. I mean, I'm hearing adoptees screaming from the rooftops of how things need to change and how things need to be different.
And adoption very much

Speaker 9 plays it as in, oh, well, it all needs to be child-centered and they are the most important. But as we are being shown, they aren't the most important and nobody is listening to them.

Speaker 9 Nobody's listening to about the changes that need to happen when, in fact, that's the only person and people we need to be listening to. Like, it blows my mind.

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Speaker 9 Were you raised always knowing you were adopted?

Speaker 10 Yeah, I never didn't know that I was adopted. My parents, they definitely always, it was always something that I was told.
I don't ever remember being told that I was adopted.

Speaker 10 So I'm assuming that they read me books or like, you know, did like whatever age appropriate.

Speaker 9 Just raised knowing it. Right.

Speaker 10 That was the only thing that I think they did right was telling me that I was adopted.

Speaker 10 There's plenty of adoptees out there that aren't told that they're adopted and either find out later in life or are told later in life.

Speaker 10 And I just can't even fathom the trauma of having a moment where you found that out, where you went from like not knowing to knowing.

Speaker 10 I think that one of the most important things adoptive parents can do is always make sure that their child knows that they're adopted. Do not ever say, well, I don't know.

Speaker 10 What's a good time for me to tell my kid that they're adopted? Right.

Speaker 10 From the second they understand words.

Speaker 9 Tell them they're adopted. That's one of the things that Brian and Teresa have always done too with Carly.
Like they have always talked about it ever since she was little.

Speaker 9 They have always read her books. And, you know, people would come and talk and be like, oh, she's so beautiful.
And she'd be like, oh, she's adopted.

Speaker 9 And I feel like that's so healthy. Like, just raise them just knowing.
Right.

Speaker 10 Because what's the alternative? The alternative is that you don't know that you're adopted. You have no chance of getting an accurate medical history.

Speaker 10 You're literally going to the doctor of what giving the medical history of like the family that you live with.

Speaker 2 It looks like nothing to do with you. Like, that's dangerous.

Speaker 10 It is dangerous. It's dangerous to not know that you're, to not know who you're biologically related.

Speaker 9 So, and then, or just like the trauma of just one one day being like you're 12 now and so we have something to tell you you know or whatever age

Speaker 10 i can't even imagine like i was well aware that i didn't act like my family and that i didn't look like really yeah growing up like i always like and it became really obvious when i met my actual birth family and i the way the mannerisms and the way that i we oh my god it was absolutely insane like i instantly felt like i was with people that i belonged with so you grew up kind of knowing that you may like mannerisms were different yeah yeah like i just nothing was ever the same we didn't really think think the same way.

Speaker 10 We didn't talk the same way. We didn't have anything.
You know what I mean? Like, when you see other people, like, you're like, oh, you look just like your mom. Oh, you just laugh just like your mom.

Speaker 10 Oh, you, like, I always notice when families look like each other. Like, I'm really, I love seeing genetics and I love like seeing families that look alike and talking about that kind of stuff.

Speaker 10 So, like, I always, as a kid, would notice, like, oh, look at those two girls, like, those two people over there, they're laughing alike, or like, you know what I mean?

Speaker 10 And I would be like, oh, I don't laugh like anybody in my family.

Speaker 9 Like, hypersensitive to it.

Speaker 10 Right. So, like, I feel like, I don't know, just like, I can't imagine growing up not knowing that you're adopted and not understanding why you don't match anybody around you.

Speaker 2 Like, it has to be so confusing.

Speaker 10 It has to be really confusing.

Speaker 5 Did you, when you were growing up, though, did you have, like, did religion play any part? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 5 Okay, because I was going to ask you, because I wanted to know, it seems all the messages that I'm receiving, it seems very, like, very common.

Speaker 10 Yeah, I mean, we were at church every Sunday. I mean, my parents were religious.
Like, we were just Presbyterian, which is like one of their, like, you know, it's a very open religion.

Speaker 10 We're very LGBT friendly, and it's a very open religion. It's more of a community than it is a religion, but they were, we were definitely in church every Sunday and part of that community.

Speaker 5 Do you think that played a part in any of the like guilt or any of the like, what does that play any part?

Speaker 10 I mean, it definitely, like, when I would hear, like, you're like God's gift, like, that kind of thing always really bothered me. And I could never really understand why.

Speaker 10 And now, as an adult, I understand, like, now that I'm a part of the community and I understand, like, so wait, if, like, wait, what about the kids that went into like abusive adoptive homes?

Speaker 10 Was that God's will as well? Like, did God will them to have horrible lives? Like, what, like,

Speaker 10 would, like, w, like, I don't understand.

Speaker 10 Like, so, yeah, like, I guess religion, like, definitely, like, when people make it a part of it, it definitely you question things because you're like, there's other adoptees that are, like, in really bad situations.

Speaker 10 Was that God's intention for them to have, like, horrible families? Like, how do you justify that? If I was God's gift to you, they were God's gift to that family.

Speaker 10 Like, how do you justify the fact that they had a horrible life?

Speaker 5 So, you're saying that, like, when people would say, like, God's gift, you're about God's gift, like, that kind of makes it it's confusing because at the same time, it's like, so, in order for God's gift to be you, I had to punish or make a birth mom miserable and say, or whatever you know, like, is it right?

Speaker 10 Like, was it God's intention to like punish the birth mom who now has this empty hole in her in her life?

Speaker 10 Like, it's yeah, like bringing religion into the adoption, into the adoption story is just a very I just didn't know how prevalent it was until all of them.

Speaker 10 I think it's prevalent in a lot of other religions. Like, I know, like, Mormons really push adoption.

Speaker 10 I know that it's like really big in a lot of the purity religions, as you guys know, that, like, people who can't have children, like, having a family is like, that's what they base their whole entire existence on, is like the ability to have a family in those religions.

Speaker 5 Which I wonder if that plays into the adoptive parents, like kind of like subconsciously prioritizing their own need to be a parent.

Speaker 2 I also

Speaker 2 think that it does.

Speaker 10 Yeah, like, that's why the infertility trauma, like, with like people in like the Mormon community, like, they, when they suffer from infertility, like, having a family is like the ultimate goal.

Speaker 2 And, like,

Speaker 9 and having as many kids as they can.

Speaker 10 that's like that's like what they're encouraged to do so like there's a lot of shame that comes with not being able to to provide that so i think that like adoption is heavily pushed in religious communities because they have to have those families or else they're not relevant in the community yeah see that's kind of like that and that's also where i feel like that should not play a part oh hello at all no we need to keep that out of the whole equation because it makes it murky and

Speaker 10 it's just messy i feel like i mean like there's really just the only reason that anybody should be placed in in for adoption is because they need safe external care.

Speaker 10 Like, we shouldn't be building our families using other people's children. It just shouldn't happen.

Speaker 2 Like, it's just not enough. Well, that's also my next point.

Speaker 5 It's like, how do what are the other options besides adoption? I hear all the time. And I like that.
Like, yeah, what do you think?

Speaker 5 What are the other options?

Speaker 2 Or an ethical adoption?

Speaker 9 Is there any ethical adoption?

Speaker 10 I mean, in an ideal world,

Speaker 10 a fully open adoption that is legally enforceable on both sides, almost a co-parenting situation is what's best for the child if it's available and the parents are healthy people and the adoptive parents are healthy people and they're able to provide that healthy relationship for the child.

Speaker 10 Like that's an ideal situation for me because everybody gets to be involved and everybody's there for the child. The child has their genetic mirrors.

Speaker 10 They have everything that they need and they're being raised with surrounded by all the love that they need.

Speaker 10 But again, that's an ideal situation. There's really no ethical way to do adoption.
And I don't have a solution. And people ask me all the time, reform needs to happen.

Speaker 10 First and foremost, adoptive parents have to be educated. Yes.
There has to be an ongoing education system.

Speaker 9 Ongoing is like the point. I say it all the time.

Speaker 10 Adoption agencies tell you, oh, we do all this follow-up and post-adoption care, and they don't. That could mean like giving them a Christmas card once a year.

Speaker 10 It doesn't necessarily mean there's continued education or they're following up to make sure the adoptee is safe.

Speaker 9 It should be like a legal thing. Every few years you're taking classes again.

Speaker 10 Right, because at the end of the day, they're doing home studies.

Speaker 10 Guess who's performing the home studies? Right. The adoption agency.

Speaker 10 People you're paying. So of course you're going to pass the home study.
You're paying them $60,000 to pass the home study.

Speaker 5 And that's part of where reform needs to happen. That shouldn't be a conflict.
That's a conflict of interest.

Speaker 10 It's a complete conflict of interest.

Speaker 5 And it shouldn't even be a thing.

Speaker 10 There's no separation there that keeps the adoptee safe. There's nothing that's keeping the adoptee safe in any way, shape, or form.
They're saying, hey, we're going to come into your home.

Speaker 10 We're going to check it. And they just, it does, there's nothing.

Speaker 10 First of all, the standards for home studies are kind of a to begin with. Like, if you don't have something locked in your basement, basement, like, you're probably going to pass a home study.

Speaker 10 You know what I mean? Like, if you're financially stable, which all these people are, and all these things, but

Speaker 10 passing a home study is a joke. So, people are like, oh, but people will hold that to a, like, that's, like, the highest standard of like care.

Speaker 10 Like, oh, if you could pass a home study, you're like the best human being ever, which isn't the case. It's just not the case.

Speaker 10 I know plenty of people that have passed home studies that were horrible human beings and have no business around children. So, like,

Speaker 10 right now we're already at a place where there's no separation of power.

Speaker 10 There's a huge conflicts of interest between adoption, the adoption agencies, the adoptive parents, and the safety of the adoptee.

Speaker 10 And I really think that reforming that is a good place to start.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 10 Figuring out how we keep adoptees safe after they've been adopted, whether there's some sort of check system to make sure that

Speaker 5 ongoing continuously.

Speaker 10 But at the end of the day, the adoptive parents need to be educated.

Speaker 10 They think that they're just getting this blank slate that they're going to be able to raise however they want.

Speaker 10 That's why they want the infants and not that's why they're not adopting from foster care. They don't want to have they want the blank slate, but they're not getting a blank slate.

Speaker 10 They're getting a child that's coming with maternal separation trauma.

Speaker 5 And I think they honestly believe that they're getting a blank slate, which I don't know where that came from, but I but like I said, people look at it as and it's a baby, it doesn't know anything.

Speaker 10 It doesn't know anything about that.

Speaker 5 That's insane because, like, when you think about it, like, you're just choosing ignorance at that point. Right.

Speaker 5 And I also feel like if you know you're going to be an adoptive parent, you need to know those things so that way you can do what you're doing.

Speaker 10 You're doing a disservice to your child. The only person you're doing a disservice to by not educating yourself on adoption and adoption trauma is the child.

Speaker 10 Because you're just going in completely unprepared to parent a child that is probably going to have issues. I mean, their neurodivergence is huge.

Speaker 10 Most of us have some sort of ADHD, autism, some sort of neurodivergence, huge in the adoption community.

Speaker 10 And a lot of it's because, I mean, a lot of it's because we were, you know, a lot of us were born addicted to drugs, but whatever, whatever the situation is, there's a lot of that within the community.

Speaker 10 There's a lot of drug addiction. There's a lot of just people

Speaker 5 mental health issues and again it's a lot of it is caused by internalizing all the negative feelings that you had about your adoption and not being able to talk about it growing up so you end up with all kinds of mental health issues i feel like people constantly say like well what do you want us to do and i'm like my first thing is well how about like i said about australia earlier like let's take a playbook out of their process how i mean like why why aren't we doing that why aren't we like looking at other places where it works and honestly when they ask about ethics it's like well, anything that has to do with commodifying children is not ethical.

Speaker 5 I don't care what you build on top of it or what experience positive experience you had.

Speaker 5 Selling children is not

Speaker 2 ethical.

Speaker 10 How is it ethical to go to an adoption agency and sit there and fill out a literal form? Yes, I'm okay with the baby being addicted to crack, heroin, right? Not, but not the, you know what I mean?

Speaker 10 Like, you're

Speaker 2 like build-a-bear.

Speaker 10 It's literally like Build-A-Bear. Yeah.
Like, you're literally telling, you're commodifying a child.

Speaker 10 And that, and it's so prevalent when it's so easy to see when you're looking at the process to adopt that it's it's it's just crazy.

Speaker 9 And so I think the problem, like the problem with our culture is that, you know,

Speaker 9 the positive side of adoption has always been talked about. It's just like beautiful and rainbows and so amazing.

Speaker 9 And now that people are starting to speak about the hard stuff and what adoptees go through and the struggles that they have, like nobody wants to listen to it.

Speaker 9 And so it's like, well, we need to talk about it more so that way it can change because the only way that it's going to change is if we change the culture in the United States and the thinking

Speaker 2 on adoption. You got to change the narrative.
You got to change the narrative. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 I mean, and the only way to do that is let adoptees speak. Right.
And the ones that have positive experiences, that's great. We're all happy.
We're all really great. I mean, that's that's awesome.

Speaker 2 It just listen to all the other ones.

Speaker 10 It doesn't negate the negative ones. And the ones that have the positive experiences a lot of times don't even realize that they didn't have a positive experience.
Like I did.

Speaker 10 I would have told you, again, 10 years ago, I would have told you that I had the best family growing up. I had a great adoption.
I was super pro-adoption.

Speaker 10 I would, like, I watched, the only reason I watched Teen Mom at all was because of your story. I've never seen, I will admit that, like, I've never seen any other teen mom other than like

Speaker 10 the season that you were on because I was watching for the adoption story. But, like, I like would have.

Speaker 10 Like, fist fought somebody that said that adoption was bad. Do you know what I mean? When my best friend was like, maybe you should, like, think about it this way.
I was like, you're crazy.

Speaker 10 I had awesome parents. Maybe you just had like really shitty parents and that sucks for you.
But But like my parents were great.

Speaker 10 And I was like, and I like literally went to town on my friend about, and like the same thing that people say to me now when they're like happy adoptees. And

Speaker 10 it really took going to therapy and

Speaker 10 really taking a deep dive into how I felt growing up and everything else to realize like what.

Speaker 5 So in a way, when you see these other adoptees kind of attacking the positive, you know, you're like, okay, I get you. I understand.

Speaker 2 I was there to be there. I was there.

Speaker 10 That's what's so frustrating about it is that like I was that person person that was like really angry at people saying that adoption is negative because I couldn't in my brain comprehend how giving a child a better home was a negative thing.

Speaker 10 But now I see that you're not necessarily giving a child a better home. You're just giving them a different home.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 10 Adoption doesn't guarantee you a better life. Yeah.
It guarantees you a different life.

Speaker 5 Yeah. And I think people get that very, very confusing.

Speaker 2 Very confused.

Speaker 5 Yeah, because I've had a lot of people write me saying horrible stories.

Speaker 5 I mean, and I think it comes down to like, you know, when these adoptive parents aren't trauma-informed and they're kind of self, you know, centering themselves and the whole thing, the kid suffers.

Speaker 5 And they're writing me messages, and it's clear that that led into them being raised.

Speaker 10 And it's like, well, yeah, the most common, I mean, hands down, I've been doing this for not a long, long time, but like long enough that I've heard thousands of adoption stories.

Speaker 10 The most common adoption story, hands down, 100%,

Speaker 10 is rich and fertile woman

Speaker 10 does IVF or whatever, can't have her own child, doesn't doesn't get any help, adopts to fill a void, puts the adoption, puts her infertility trauma on the adoptee. And that's my story.

Speaker 10 And that's almost every adoptee I know has the same exact story.

Speaker 5 Now, did your adoptive mom ever talk about her infertility with you growing up?

Speaker 2 Wow. Okay.

Speaker 10 Interesting. Never, ever, ever.
Never talked about it.

Speaker 5 That's crazy.

Speaker 10 But

Speaker 10 I was definitely there to fill the void. I was definitely there to be the perfect child and

Speaker 10 do all the things that her child would have done.

Speaker 10 And when I didn't do the things that like her child would have done, it was very obvious that there was disappointment that I was not her child, that I was not her biological child, because her biological child would have never acted like I acted.

Speaker 10 Do you know what I mean? Like it was always, there was always that underlying feeling. And she was so busy trying to portray herself as the perfect mom to society

Speaker 10 that she did everything for me. but never did anything with me.
She was my Girl Scout leader. She was my coach.
She was the PTO president.

Speaker 10 She ran the the church youth group she every but she was never home she never played with me she never did anything with me she never spent time with me she was just so busy showing society that she was this great mom because that was you know what that's what she prioritized

Speaker 9 and so like

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Speaker 9 I mean, I know

Speaker 9 your dad recently passed.

Speaker 10 He did, yeah.

Speaker 9 But I feel like when I hear you speak, I feel like your dad seems to me, it comes off like you probably felt more comfortable with him, in a sense.

Speaker 10 And again, this is another thing that I will, I'll die on this hill. The most common story that I hear is narcissistic adoptive mom, passive adoptive father.

Speaker 10 And that's what you hear all the time. And that's the dynamic is the mom is the ringleader.
The mom is the one that wanted the adoption. The mom is the, you know, the one, is just, that's it.

Speaker 10 And the passive dad. And that's what I had.

Speaker 10 I had a very strong-willed mother and a dad that was kind of just like, he owned a travel agency and basically just like traveled all the time and was like, worked all the time.

Speaker 10 And he was a great man and a wonderful human being. And I love my dad very, very much, but like definitely did not protect me from my adoptive mother.

Speaker 10 And I think that's the story that we we hear most from adoptees: is that they had a very narcissistic mom and a dad that didn't protect them.

Speaker 10 And that's the only real complaint that I hear from adoptees about adoptive fathers

Speaker 10 is that they didn't protect them from the adoptive mother.

Speaker 9 I just do you hold a little bit of resent for a lot of people.

Speaker 10 I did resent my dad, definitely. I did actually,

Speaker 10 I did, I talked about it a lot in therapy. That, like, and again, my dad was my best friend.
My dad definitely tried. There was never any malicious intent from my dad at all, whatsoever.

Speaker 10 But I did definitely resent the fact that he did not do anything to protect me from my mom.

Speaker 9 But I know you said in the recent years that you and him had a very good conversation.

Speaker 2 You talked about it.

Speaker 10 We did. Actually, it was like he just passed away in January and it was probably in maybe November.

Speaker 10 We were just sitting there and I was kind of telling him a little bit about like the TikTok videos that I was making and then I was talking about adoption on like a platform and stuff.

Speaker 10 And he and I was like telling him a little bit about like adoption trauma and like just what we talk about. And he's like, oh, that makes sense.

Speaker 10 Like he's like, I never really thought about it that way. And like, I think I like, I don't think that he just ever really thought about it.
And I think that that's the issue with most people.

Speaker 10 Most people just don't think that there is another side to it.

Speaker 10 They don't think about like that anybody should feel anything but good about it because they don't, it's never been presented to them that way. Right.

Speaker 10 So, like, my dad just never saw it as anything but like a good thing. Like, he, in his mind, they provided me with this great life.

Speaker 10 You know, I went to private school and college and got a good career and did all these things. And he attributed that to the fact that they were able to provide this life for me.

Speaker 10 He never really saw it as like abandonment and loss and grief for me. So for him to acknowledge that those things happened was like really important for me.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I bet that was very validating.

Speaker 10 I never in a million years thought that I would hear him acknowledge that maybe they didn't make the best decisions or that

Speaker 10 he didn't protect me from my mom. And he did.
He really did acknowledge those things and

Speaker 10 let me know that. So that was huge.
But

Speaker 5 so if you had like a if you were to label it like, okay, if I if I could go back in time and

Speaker 5 in order to say I had the best adoption experience like what would what as an adoptee like what could adoptive parents if they're actually listening what could they what is what could they have done what could they have done better or what can adoptive parents do yeah if they're thinking even about adopting

Speaker 10 no it's a hard one don't adopt yeah i know that's a hard one i know but if they're already they're already in the situation what as an adoptee what could they do i think it's really important to listen to adoptees okay i think it's incredibly important to listen to adoptees' stories.

Speaker 10 And I think that it's incredibly important to go to family therapists and to find trauma-informed therapists.

Speaker 10 I think there's a very, there's a, there's a lack of adoption-informed therapists in this country. There's one in Pennsylvania that I know of.

Speaker 5 I don't find any.

Speaker 10 There's one in Pennsylvania that I know of. And actually Brenda, the adoptive mom, Brenda, that's in Texas.
Yeah.

Speaker 10 She actually does virtual therapy sessions with the woman in Pennsylvania because it was like the only one that we could find. And it's so she always recommends people to go to her.

Speaker 10 But I think that it's really important that you find someone that is, that specializes in this type of family dynamic and you go regularly so that your child always will know that they are able to talk about.

Speaker 10 anything they want,

Speaker 10 however they feel. I think that really being educated and continuing your education is important.

Speaker 5 And that might actually minimize the fog. If they're constantly giving this opportunity to speak and express, like maybe that won't.

Speaker 10 Right.

Speaker 10 And you need to advocate for your child and you need to support them and you need to understand that like like you like finding their birth family like things like you need to like be ready to make these suggestions to them and to encourage them to do these things because a lot of adoptees are like oh i don't want to find my birth family because they're scared they're scared that they're going to be rejected or they're you know what i mean secondhand rejection is awful like oh i couldn't my like being rejected by my birth mom again was just was was a horrible horrible feeling but like so i think a lot of adoptees like are really stuck in like a point where like they don't want to even look i think that it's really important for for adoptive families to understand that and to be like educated on that and how to support them and how to, you know, really just talk to them about everything that has to do with it and have an open conversation.

Speaker 9 And do you think like encouraging them to do so, like, hey, let you know, encouraging them to look and saying, like, if something happens, we're here to support you and we will talk about it or whatever.

Speaker 10 I think just encouraging them to feel whatever they want to feel or do whatever they want to do with regards to their own life and their own adoption is super important.

Speaker 10 And it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen because of insecurities. Like in reality, like the...

Speaker 9 So, Honestly, if you're an adoptive parent that has insecurities or you're even thinking about adopting, you probably shouldn't adopt. Right.

Speaker 10 It's like thinking about it, John's saying, if you're thinking about adopting and the thought of your child finding their biological family bothers you, don't adopt a child.

Speaker 9 Right. Or, oh, them getting older and they're going to want nothing to do with me.

Speaker 2 Like, any of you.

Speaker 10 Like, you're sitting there and you're thinking, like, oh, like, what if they want to search for their, like, oh, I'm so scared.

Speaker 10 Like, I mean, there was a, there was a, there was a very, a very prevalent conversation between, you know, your adoptive parents and you were, they basically said, our biggest fear is that she's going to want to have a relationship with you when she's older.

Speaker 5 And you're saying that fear alone.

Speaker 10 That fear alone,

Speaker 10 you should not adopt.

Speaker 10 Or if you're afraid that the child that you're going to raise will want to have a relationship with the person who gave birth to them, then you should not be in that child's life.

Speaker 10 You're not a safe person for them.

Speaker 10 It's not safe.

Speaker 5 It's not child-centered.

Speaker 2 It's not child-centered. It's not centered.
Yeah, you're literally.

Speaker 10 They're going to come to you and be like, I want to have a relationship with my parents. And you're going to be like, oh my God, that was my biggest fear.

Speaker 10 Like, right, right, no, and then they're going to not want to even talk about it, they're going to internalize it and then they're never going to want to talk about it again.

Speaker 10 And that's the other thing. A lot of adoptive children will go to their adoptive parents and say, I would like to find my biological family, and they're met with, well,

Speaker 10 you know, and they're met with negativity, and it's a very negative experience. And what if it's in there? And then, or that fear is put in them by their adoptive parents.

Speaker 5 How stuck that the what's the adopting children?

Speaker 10 That's what we're saying. I mean,

Speaker 10 my adoptive mom would regularly say things to me that made me afraid to look.

Speaker 10 Which I think was why, like, when she passed away, that I kind of just didn't even bother to look. Was I was like, I was like, well, what if, like, everything that she said was right?

Speaker 10 Like, I didn't, you know what I mean?

Speaker 5 What are the things that she would say?

Speaker 10 Again, like, we're basically just saying, like, you know, what if they have moved on and they have a family and you're disturbing their family?

Speaker 10 Or, like, or she would say things like, what if she's like a horrible drug addict and like you find out like awful things about her? Like, you know what I mean?

Speaker 10 Like, it was always like, it was always spun in a negative way. Like, what if you find her and some horrible thing happens?

Speaker 10 It was never like, what if you find her and she's this wonderful person and wants you in her her life? It was always just negative and like, don't do it because something bad could happen.

Speaker 9 And so, obviously, you most recently did find them and

Speaker 9 you've met your other siblings.

Speaker 10 Some of them, yeah. Some of them.

Speaker 2 Oh, not all of them. No.

Speaker 10 I have, so I, there were eight of us. Um, one passed away.
My, my sister April passed away. Um,

Speaker 10 horrible circumstances. Um, and then I have

Speaker 10 So there was Mary Jane was my first sister, and then my brother Michael. And they're just, just, they all were raised in like really chaotic, horrible, abusive environments.
Yeah.

Speaker 10 So they're just, they're not healthy people. Right.
So the relationships aren't able to happen at this point.

Speaker 9 Are any of them healthy?

Speaker 10 I do. My brother Harley, who's, again, is the youngest and was the only one that was actually kept in that situation.
And I think because he was the youngest was maybe spoiled a little bit.

Speaker 10 So he kind of had more of a...

Speaker 10 an opportunity to like normalcy not not necessarily like the greatest but like was a little enough normalcy that he was okay that he's okay now okay he's awesome i love him And I talk to him all the time and he's got this awesome wife who I absolutely adore.

Speaker 10 And they're the ones that I actually got to meet when I went to meet my birth mom. So when I hugged him and for the first time in my life, I felt family.

Speaker 2 Oh, wow.

Speaker 10 For the first time in my life, I was like, oh, my God, this feels like

Speaker 10 I know this person in a different way than I've ever felt when I hugged my, even my adoptive family.

Speaker 10 Like the bond and like this, the feeling I had when I hugged him and my other brother Tony was just so different than anything I've ever felt in my life.

Speaker 5 Like different, because I think what people don't understand is that, like, as an adoptee, like, yeah, I have my adoptive parents, but then their parents are your grandparents.

Speaker 5 And, like, you, you know what I mean?

Speaker 5 It's a whole branch of, and if you never felt a hug like that, I mean, that's got to be really intense.

Speaker 2 In social, it's like the souls know.

Speaker 10 My soul knew that that was my family. Yeah.
My body knew that that was my brother.

Speaker 10 Like, I felt everything from, I like, I almost felt like everything inside of him, like all his feelings and emotions seeping into my, it was, I don't know how else to describe it.

Speaker 10 It was, it was a very surreal experience, but I've never felt anything like that in my life. And I can only assume it's because my body knew that that was my relative.
That was my DNA.

Speaker 5 Would you consider like you being reunited as a good experience, bad?

Speaker 10 Like, what would you? It was an experience.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 But you know what?

Speaker 9 One person that I don't ever really hear you talk about is your birth father.

Speaker 10 He passed away.

Speaker 10 My story is absolutely the birth family story is absolutely insane. So my birth mother,

Speaker 10 I think the reason that I was the only one out of seven that was given up for adoption. And I think that it was because my birth mother wasn't quite sure who my birth father was.

Speaker 10 She had the first two children with Michael, who is, who did end up being my birth father.

Speaker 10 And then she left him and she was getting with Tony, and who is the father of the other five.

Speaker 10 And I think she was cheating on Tony with Michael and didn't know who the father of the child was and then was like pressured into giving, like, you know what I mean?

Speaker 10 The opportunity presented itself, the adoption, and she was like, Well, I really don't know who the dad is, and I don't want to, like, you know.

Speaker 10 And I'm pretty sure that that's why I was given up for adoption. But when she went back to Tony, Tony paid somebody to hit my birth father with a car.
What the fuck? And he ended up in a coma.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 10 For a while, he came out of the coma. And then Tony paid somebody to run him off the road again, and he ended up passing away the second time.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 2 Okay, so what the hell?

Speaker 10 Yeah, so I never to meet my birth father. He passed away very young.

Speaker 10 And so I don't really know anything about him. I do have contact with his family, though.
So

Speaker 10 his brother's daughter I talk to, like my first cousin, and then a couple of my second cousins on that side, they all live like five minutes from me.

Speaker 2 Have you ever seen them? Really? Yeah, we go and hang out all the time. We hang out with them all the time.

Speaker 10 Have you seen pictures of them or I look like my birth father, yeah? Yeah. Yeah, I think so.
I mean, but I sound just like my birth mother. I laugh and everything.

Speaker 10 When I heard her laugh, we were cracking up because we laugh exactly the same. My sister and I laugh exactly the same.

Speaker 10 We both, like, we, when I, when I, as soon as I started having conversations with them, that's when I realized, like, so much of growing up, like, I didn't resemble these people at all.

Speaker 10 I didn't have any of their mannerisms, I didn't have any of their like anything at all. And it was so obvious when I got with my birth family that I didn't have that growing up.

Speaker 5 Which is the importance of genetic mirroring. It's really important for kids.
And I had no idea what genetic mirroring was until diving into this whole thing.

Speaker 10 I mean, I was blown away by how much I resembled and acted and acted like these people.

Speaker 9 That you weren't even raised with.

Speaker 10 Our mannerisms are so similar, it's crazy, right? That I've never even met. But we like, even like seeing my sister on FaceTime, like the facial expressions that we make are the same.

Speaker 10 And like, we're only half sisters, but like, it's still crazy. It's crazy.
And like, I see, like, like, I think that, like, Nova and Carly look exactly the same.

Speaker 2 Do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 10 Like, right, like, that genetic mirroring, like, to me, like, that relationship is so important because, like, like she can see herself and her sister. And like, do you know what I mean?

Speaker 10 Like, those relationships are so unbelievably important for adoptees because, like, I don't know, you get to see yourself and other people, and people take that advantage.

Speaker 10 Take that for, you know what I mean? Take advantage of that because that's what you're used to. Like, you guys don't know a time when you didn't see people that you, you know what I mean? So, like,

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Speaker 10 I don't know. It's so obvious.

Speaker 9 And it has to be harder.

Speaker 9 Like one of my questions too was like, it has to be harder because being an adoptee, but now an older adoptee and knowing that that you had siblings out there, like it's almost harder to have to build these relationships from scratch when, in fact, if everything would have been open and honest, it would have just been normal.

Speaker 10 Right.

Speaker 10 And I can't help but think, like, and I know that this is just me being me, but like, I can't help but thinking, like, if I had known they existed growing up, like, what could I have done to make their lives better?

Speaker 10 And, like, maybe they wouldn't have had such hard lives or, like, they wouldn't have turned out the way that they did. Or like, I could have helped them.

Speaker 10 Or, like, and I know that that's just me being me, I'm a helper. And, like, that's just like my initial response to things.
But, like, that's how I feel about it.

Speaker 10 I'm like, what if we grew up, if I grew up knowing them, like, could I have called them and like, like, you know, could you have been a resource, maybe? Right, like, they never had any guidance.

Speaker 10 Could I have like guided them down the right path? Or like, you know what I mean? Like, who knows if I could have been a positive influence on their life? You know what I mean?

Speaker 10 Like, they probably wouldn't have been a negative influence on mine.

Speaker 10 But like, at the same time, like, I was, I've always been, you know, a very confident person and not very easily, you know, sway your influence.

Speaker 10 So I feel like I could have been a positive influence on their life.

Speaker 10 And I, I, just just the fact that opportunity wasn't given to me, I will never forgive my parents for taking away the opportunity to have siblings growing up. I mean, I had an adoptive brother.

Speaker 10 We, you know, that relationship is what it was.

Speaker 9 Well, right. And it's just not the same.
Just having your, yeah.

Speaker 10 There's no, there was no bond. I mean, again, you're putting your adoptive fat, like you're literally putting strangers in a house together

Speaker 2 and then just expecting them to bond.

Speaker 10 And like sometimes strangers don't bond with each other. Like you're not going to bond with everybody.
So like I really just never felt that bond with my brother.

Speaker 10 And again, I had an adoptive mom that triangulated things and pinned us against each other. And like, that was, that was the dynamic, too.

Speaker 10 And I think that's a very common dynamic in adoptive homes, especially when there is an adoptive and a biological child.

Speaker 5 I was just going to bring that up because I've had really crazy stories lately of adoptees saying, like,

Speaker 5 I... Like you saying the first hug that you got from your biological brother was so intense.

Speaker 5 And I've heard people say, I never knew that I was, I never knew that it was possible to feel this relationship with a sibling because I was adopted, but he was biological and actually was born.

Speaker 5 The specific girl I'm talking about, she was older, and then she was adopted because they didn't think they could have.

Speaker 2 I think I know who you're talking about.

Speaker 5 And then her brother was a biological. And she said, I literally like...

Speaker 2 She does something to you has to.

Speaker 5 She said, I could sense the shift in the house.

Speaker 5 I could feel it.

Speaker 5 And it's like.

Speaker 10 And they know. They know.
And those adopted, when you talk to those adopted children as adults, they very much knew that they were the adopted child in the house, not the biological.

Speaker 5 And she said that nothing specific happened or was said. It just that you could just, you could just feel it.

Speaker 5 That my whole life changed the moment he's so sad. Well, it's, yeah.
I mean, it's something that I don't think other people think about. Like, you can, not all kids are adopted.

Speaker 5 Some of them are adopted and biological, and that creates a really a lot of times.

Speaker 10 People adopt it because they've told they can't have kids, and then they get pregnant and they have a child, but then they're like, oh my God, all my prayers have been answered. I can have my own kid.

Speaker 10 Right, right. But then you're like, wait, but then you, but you spent all this time convincing this other child that you're my real child.

Speaker 10 So then there's that confusion too. Because again, whenever people are like, who? And that's the other thing.
Like, as a kid, people are constantly like, well, what about your real parents?

Speaker 10 People constantly say to adoptees, well, who are your real parents? Or where are your real parents? And then you're like, well, what does that mean?

Speaker 2 Who does that mean? Who are my real parents?

Speaker 10 So then you're given that responsibility of figuring out, like, well, these people are raising me and they're there for me full-time and they're doing all the parental responsibilities for my real care.

Speaker 10 These people like actually created me and gave birth to me.

Speaker 10 So like they're, and now as an adult, I have a full understanding that the people that the person that grew me and created me and gave birth to me, that's my real parent.

Speaker 10 Like, that person created my life. They, I'm alive because of that person.

Speaker 5 And I think people kind of like, that's when they're like, oh, well, my real parent. They're like, no, that was your real mother.

Speaker 5 And then people get like the parent and then versus a mother versus a parent are two different things.

Speaker 5 Or you don't have to be, you know, you don't have to be a parent in order to be a mom is what they're.

Speaker 5 And I think that obviously that probably comes from adoptees who are probably still in the fog or whatever.

Speaker 5 And I also noticed that that gets really like, they do not like to be told anything about the fog. They get very upset and say, don't label me.
And it's weird. It's a tricky situation.

Speaker 5 I'm not I'm not trying.

Speaker 10 I just you just want people to look inward and like maybe like maybe like maybe just take it maybe look at it like me like you don't have to like you can still be mad about it.

Speaker 5 Just yeah,

Speaker 2 try. Try.
Yeah. Just try.
Yeah. Try to have some other perspective at it.

Speaker 10 Or like just try to understand that maybe you were led to believe something that isn't fully accurate like that's that's important like or like just acknowledge that two things could be true at once right you can acknowledge the fact that you had a good adoption but that adoption is not a great thing i feel

Speaker 9 even with birth with like birth parents for us like it's all like two feelings a lot all the time it can be happy and sad or you know make you angry and sad at the same time like it all is and we talk about birth parent we like we're like we i think we went through our own little fog for years after placing i mean you definitely did i mean there's i mean you got a lot of criticism because you actually helped another,

Speaker 10 you actually went and helped another birth mother give her child up for adoption. Yeah, and you got a lot of backlash for that.
But I think that that was just you being in the fog.

Speaker 10 Like, you thought you were doing the right thing and you didn't really understand that.

Speaker 9 Yeah, and I've seen people say, like, oh, you pressured her into it. And I was like, no, no, no, no.
This was four years after Carly was placed.

Speaker 9 And this birth mom asked me, will you be in the room with me? And she had nobody. And I was like, of course, I will say that.

Speaker 10 Like, you just felt like you don't want the person to be alone.

Speaker 2 No, I don't want her to be alone.

Speaker 9 And then when her son was born, she kicked everybody out. She didn't let the adoptive parents in there.
Nothing. And she was just her and her son for three days.
But

Speaker 10 looking back, what would you tell her now? If you were presented with that same information now and she came to you and said, like, will you be in the room? What should I do?

Speaker 10 Like, what different information would you give her now?

Speaker 9 I think that I would try to talk to her and point out all of the support that she does have in her life

Speaker 9 and tell her, like, you can do this. Like, this doesn't have to be your only option.
Because she did have a very supportive family.

Speaker 9 Like, yes, it was out of wedlock, you know, or whatever, but that doesn't matter. And that doesn't define you.

Speaker 9 Yeah, there's a lot of things, of course, I wish I could go back and tell her.

Speaker 10 We grow up. I know people ask me things all the time.
Like, somebody asked me the other day, like, what would I, like, when we were on the live, they said, like, what would I have told you?

Speaker 10 Like, if you were, you know, if I, and I'm like, oh my God, I don't know.

Speaker 2 Right? Right?

Speaker 10 Like, that's a really serious question. But, like, and like, the answer that Brenda gave was one that I really loved.
And she would have just told you that, like, you're worthy of being a mom.

Speaker 10 You're worthy of keeping your child. You're worthy of parenting your child.
And you are. And you've proven that.

Speaker 10 The two of you have proven that you're very worthy of parenting and being.

Speaker 5 But I think part of the coercion stuff was that, like, that I didn't really realize back then was that everyone kept telling us, all the adults kept saying, in order to be the best parent, you have to not be one.

Speaker 5 And it was like, all right, all right.

Speaker 5 So any moment, any thought that we would have, and me and Kate talk about it, we looked at each other in the hospital multiple times and we didn't have to say words, but we just knew like, let's just run.

Speaker 5 Let's just get out of here with the baby, and we'll just run. And we don't care where the hell we go.

Speaker 2 And it's like, it was like telepathically.

Speaker 5 Yeah, but it was like, afterwards, we're like, yeah, but even thinking about it made us feel guilty because it was telling us, well, the best thing you can do, if you want to be a good parent, don't be one.

Speaker 5 And it was like, okay, all right. So it's like, you know, I think looking back at me being now any birth parent, I would say, I would first ask, why are you doing this?

Speaker 5 And then after you tell me why, I would say, well, there's a solution for that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And whatever it is, we're not going to be able to do that.

Speaker 5 There's a solution for that. Let me help you find those resources because I think that's what it comes down to.

Speaker 5 We were just talking to Gretchen Sisson the other day, and she was talking about how the number one reason is

Speaker 5 financial resources.

Speaker 10 $1,000. And I think now's a really good time to mention that there are organizations out there that do help, that are there to help.
Saving Our Sisters is one of them.

Speaker 10 There's wonderful organizations that you can contact. Again, Saving Our Sisters.
If you're a birth mother in need and you want to keep your child, there are people out there that will help you.

Speaker 10 It's on my list of things. One of my goals is to start a service like that in our area.

Speaker 10 You guys have expressed wanting to help with that.

Speaker 10 I would love to make a nonprofit organization that fully supports birth bonds with, you know, and even afterwards, like offering career services and education services, housing, childcare.

Speaker 2 It's so important.

Speaker 10 A full service. You know,

Speaker 10 how do you correct a problem?

Speaker 10 You fix society so that the problem isn't there to begin with.

Speaker 2 Yes, you know, absolutely. So we culturally shift it.

Speaker 10 And we're not going to change a $25 billion industry because if billions of dollars are involved, no one's in a hurry to make changes or reform it or

Speaker 10 do anything to it because then maybe it wouldn't be worth so much money.

Speaker 2 Yeah, right. You know what I mean?

Speaker 10 So how do we, again, how do we take away the supply to that industry? We help birth mothers keep their children.

Speaker 9 So that was going to be my question for you. It's like, so what, you know, where can people find you?

Speaker 9 And also kind of what are you going to continue doing as an adoptee to try to change this whole system?

Speaker 10 I mean, that, I mean, really, that, that's on my list of things to do right now.

Speaker 10 I have been overloaded with obviously I've had a lot of there's been you know some personal situations that have put a lot of things on hold in my life right now but I mean that that is my goal is to try to get this nonprofit organization off the off the ground and do something with that.

Speaker 10 I'm still on TikTok adoptee advocate Aaron. I just make videos really.
It's just to talk about it.

Speaker 10 I really just want people to understand that there's a different narrative out there and it's you know it may be scary to hear it first yeah but in the grand scheme of things we're really just trying to center adopted children we're just trying to help children have a better life

Speaker 10 and be able to be well taken care of and have people be educated because they're not going to stop adoption adopt right people that are against adoption and and want to abolish adoption it's it's a great idea yeah and i i mean like obviously i'm anti-adoption and if we could do away with adoption completely, I think that that would be great.

Speaker 10 But it's just not, I don't think it's a feasible situation right now in this country. We have to figure out a healthy, good way to provide safe externality.

Speaker 10 Yeah, baby steps, you know, like, yeah, and I think one of the big things that people, that people do push is, is really finding a way to do it where the child doesn't lose their identity.

Speaker 10 They don't lose their medical records. They don't, you know what I mean? Because that's really the worst part of it.

Speaker 10 And that was really what got me searching for my birth family to begin with was that I had kids. And you go to the doctor and they're like, well, what's your medical history?

Speaker 10 And I'm like, I don't know. My kids don't know.
And I was like, well, maybe I should find my birth family because I would love to have my medical records.

Speaker 10 I still haven't been able to get a coherent medical history out of anybody in my family.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 5 that could change with federal law.

Speaker 9 There has to be baby steps into changing, but that right there is a good idea.

Speaker 10 I mean, there is a database where, like, people, like, there is an actual database that's anonymous where, like, those, that information can be left.

Speaker 10 I don't know a lot about it, but I was actually, someone just told me about it the other day.

Speaker 10 So the database does exist, but like, you have to rely on the birth families to enter the information in and keep up with it.

Speaker 10 And I think that a lot of times, like, like you're 16 and you're giving a child for adoption, you don't really have a medical history because you're 16.

Speaker 2 Like, nothing's really happened to you yet. Right?

Speaker 9 I filled out whatever did.

Speaker 10 You don't really know. Like, you can, you know, what happened to your parents and stuff, but like, you personally don't really have much.
So, like, it's something that has to be ongoing.

Speaker 10 There has to be a way to anonymously update the system as time goes on. Like, I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease at 35 years old.
So, like, I would have never known about it, but it's genetic.

Speaker 10 So, like, so I would have to be able to go back into a system and be able to update that and people will be able to look at it, you know, as life goes on.

Speaker 10 But I mean, these systems need to need to exist.

Speaker 10 Because we have no rights. Adoptees have absolutely no rights at all whatsoever, like basic human rights to access our information.

Speaker 5 They're forced into it. They have no choice, which is why.

Speaker 10 Oh, I was five days old. I didn't consent to being adopted.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 10 I had no choice in the matter. I had no choice in losing my medical history, my family, everything.
I lost everything. And I wasn't able to get it back until I was 18 years old.

Speaker 10 That's 18 years of my life where I had no idea where I came from, who in my family existed, what my medical history was, like just nothing.

Speaker 2 Which isn't fair.

Speaker 9 And like you said, like how you lost everything. Tyler and I always say that the adoptees, most of all, and the birth parents lose everything.
Yes.

Speaker 9 While the adoptive parents literally are gaining everything.

Speaker 2 They lose nothing.

Speaker 10 They lose nothing.

Speaker 9 And I think that... But they love to talk about their loss.

Speaker 2 I know. Yeah, they do.
Yes.

Speaker 10 It's very likely. I mean, during that same interview where Brandon was talking about the fear of her wanting to have a relationship with you,

Speaker 10 all we heard about was Theresa's loss and

Speaker 10 the infertility and the loss and the infertility and the loss. And it's like, you need to heal that before you take on someone else's child.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 10 Like, if you're literally crying about the fact that you can't have your own child, you're not ready to take on someone else's child. If you're literally...
in tears,

Speaker 10 crying about the fact that you can't have your own child, you're not going to do someone else's child justice. Right.

Speaker 10 You're just getting them to fill the void of not being able to have your own child.

Speaker 2 Yep. Which isn't child-centered.
No, and they're going to know it.

Speaker 10 They're going to know it. There's no way.

Speaker 9 It's supposed to be adoption. I mean, child-centered, yes.
So I think, um,

Speaker 9 what was I going to say?

Speaker 9 So I think people that are like, whether you're listening or watching, and if you're interested in learning more, and I think everybody should take even just five minutes out of their day to educate themselves about adoptees and listen to adoptees.

Speaker 9 If you go to TikTok, you can search, you know, like adoptee talk or adopte talk or anything like that.

Speaker 9 And just listen to what these people are saying i think it's very educational and just try to put yourselves in their shoes and understand where they're coming from um obviously this is our first podcast with our first adoptee and one of our friends and it's very important to be talked about um

Speaker 9 and i just want to say thank you aaron for always being vulnerable always being there always helping educate us you know and always allowing ty and i to ask like an adoptee questions so that we can learn and make sure we're kind of navigating in the right way yeah because we message you the same day and not even know it.

Speaker 5 I know.

Speaker 2 Oh,

Speaker 10 right.

Speaker 9 And then now we're all like, she's our adoptee mom.

Speaker 2 That's what we're going to call her, you know.

Speaker 9 But like, seriously, just for you being vulnerable and coming on and talking. And I think, I think what we're all trying to do is very important work.

Speaker 9 And I hope, you know, I'm hoping this won't be the last time that you're on, just the first time.

Speaker 10 And I hope that you guys don't get discouraged by people telling you not to talk about adoption in a negative way. And I know that.
And I also want to point out the fact that people

Speaker 10 say all the time that you say negative things about Carly's parents and you say negative things about adoption.

Speaker 10 And I've been talking to you guys for a year now and I've literally never heard you say a negative word about

Speaker 10 their parents.

Speaker 5 Even in private.

Speaker 2 Even in private.

Speaker 2 Or I could. No one would.

Speaker 10 You're not out here bad-mouthing people. You're not out here bad-mouthing adoption.

Speaker 10 You're just trying to educate people so that they can be healthier in the ways that they're raising their adopted children. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Speaker 10 You're using your voice to help advocate for your daughter, really.

Speaker 10 I mean, and and I think that that's a beautiful thing. And I think that a lot of adoptees can relate to you and really appreciate you because we see how much you love your daughter.

Speaker 10 And we all wish that we had that. So like for us, having you in our community has been like a really beautiful thing because it gives us hope.
I mean, it really does. It gives us hope that like

Speaker 10 our parents wanted us. You know what I mean? That they will fight for us and that they will advocate for the adoption.
adoption community that she's a part of.

Speaker 2 I mean, at the end of the day, she's a part of that.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I don't want people to think that we're coming here trampling all over. You You know, it's that

Speaker 2 we're asserting ourselves.

Speaker 5 Like, we're just trying to

Speaker 5 make a platform that people can hear. Right.

Speaker 10 And, I mean, right, because people are going to be giving their children up for adoption. Like, that's not going to stop.
So, how can we help them be better parents to their adoption?

Speaker 10 Therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy.

Speaker 10 Some might a trauma-informed therapist that understands adoption.

Speaker 2 You have an adopted child.

Speaker 9 So, I'm hoping this won't be the last time, but just the last time you're in the chat.

Speaker 2 I would love to come back.

Speaker 10 Yes, definitely. I'm excited to see you talk to all the other adoptees that are coming through.
You have some really good guests coming on.

Speaker 2 Thank you, Erin.

Speaker 2 Thank you, guys. You're the best.

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