We're "Trauma Bonded" and We Like It

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Speaker 6 Welcome you guys back to Kate and Ty Break It Down. We are on episode don't even remember.
Nope don't recall.

Speaker 6 But we appreciate you guys listening and chiming in and we've gotten so much feedback.

Speaker 7 We really have.

Speaker 6 Like we've been using our Instagram page to kind of like kind of bring you guys into this whole experience, which I think is the best because

Speaker 6 you guys bring up stuff that we never even, I would never even have thought of.

Speaker 7 No, I know. And I forgot.
I did. I posted another like

Speaker 7 juicy

Speaker 7 juicy secrets thing today. And

Speaker 7 because I always think it's so funny

Speaker 6 to like,

Speaker 7 yeah.

Speaker 7 And I forgot to look at it. I posted it this morning.

Speaker 7 So I really like that, you know, Tyler and I, we can create polls and ask you guys questions.

Speaker 7 Or, you know, we we really want to do a segment called like unlicensed advice because we're both not therapists, but we can kind of give you what we would do in a certain scenario or situation.

Speaker 6 Yeah, you're hanging out with friends and you're like, hey, right.

Speaker 7 And I

Speaker 7 somebody's, uh, somebody's comment on it was like, can you just be my unlicensed therapist therapist forever? I was like, that is funny.

Speaker 6 Sure, sure.

Speaker 6 I'll do it for free.

Speaker 7 See, like, there's already some good anonymous secrets. Yeah.
I might have to pull those up at the end. But for later on in today's episode, I do have some of your guys'

Speaker 7 questions that you wanted unlicensed advice on. So we'll talk about that later.
And just so everybody knows, whenever you send something in, I always keep it anonymous. So that way, you know,

Speaker 7 it just keeps people private.

Speaker 6 I think it's

Speaker 6 a good thing. Unless they say like, hey, you can say my name.
Right. Even if you tell us, though, that we can say your name, we're probably not going to say your name.

Speaker 6 I think it's better when it's anonymous. Yes.
Because, hey, it just works.

Speaker 7 You don't have to worry about, you know, people figuring out who you are or whatever.

Speaker 6 Yeah. yeah for sure

Speaker 7 so i know like you were talking about what you wanted to talk about certain things that happen on the show i was thinking about talking about like mental health stuff

Speaker 6 i think it kind of all comes together in that realm okay but uh

Speaker 6 i think i think it's i think it's important that we in the beginning of this kind of kind of go through

Speaker 6 stuff that we feel we should just clarify things on or explain further, whatever. Okay.

Speaker 6 And the first thing that I was like, well, what I see a lot of is obviously people are taking the clips that we filmed, you know, I don't know, 10, 12 years ago, whatever.

Speaker 6 And they're kind of using it in nowadays way. And like, oh, this is what was going on back then.

Speaker 6 They're trying to dissect it. Yeah, whatever they're trying to do.
And, and, of course, it always comes back to like your

Speaker 6 when you were just had severe postpartum depression and when you were down and out and when you were worried about your weight and and remember we did a whole, it was like a whole season.

Speaker 7 Oh my god, that was the worst season of my life.

Speaker 6 Honestly, it was the worst season. Actually, it was like two seasons.
I feel like we had a certain producer, and it just wasn't working.

Speaker 7 Well, no, but I just felt like also too, it was just very like weight-driven. Like, the whole story was about like my weight.
And I'm like, why is this a subject?

Speaker 7 Especially when I just had a baby, mind you.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 7 And then you were talking about weight. Like, that's not good for any female.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Well, I also feel like it's almost like when you're filming a reality show, it's like you bring up one thing, even if you're just talking to the producer, you're like just chilling, right?

Speaker 6 And then they go, oh, and they like attack that situation and go, okay, let's, let's, let's

Speaker 7 like we said before in previous episodes where we would say stuff, and they're like, that's interesting. We're like, what?

Speaker 6 How?

Speaker 7 How is that interesting?

Speaker 6 And I feel like that season was like the moment you mentioned about losing the baby weight, because everything was about like, oh, you're, you're, our, we're first.

Speaker 6 child we're parenting, you know, whatever. You're getting married now.
And it was all, it came all about your weight. And I remember being like, we talked about it all the time.

Speaker 6 You always mentioned about like, I want to lose weight. I'm going to do weight watchers.
I want to do this. I want to do that.
And so we talked about it a lot.

Speaker 6 And it never, it never was like a negative bad thing.

Speaker 6 But I think when you're in a situation, you're filming a show and they're like, hey, hey, hey, hey, we're eating a meal, right?

Speaker 6 And we're talking about, and they're like, hey, so how's the weight loss thing going? Right.

Speaker 7 It's like, oh, of course. And it puts an awkward spin on it.
It's like, why? I wouldn't really be talking about this while I'm eating dinner.

Speaker 6 Like, what

Speaker 6 I feel like when that situation was going on, it was like, what the TV didn't show was that behind closed doors, you were talking about how bad you wanted to lose weight.

Speaker 7 Yeah, how I needed to be held accountable

Speaker 7 because I do need help with those certain things. And those are your words.

Speaker 6 You're like, listen, you need to hold me accountable because I'm not good at this.

Speaker 6 Like, okay.

Speaker 6 And I'm like,

Speaker 6 I think, you know, 10, 11 years ago, I was, my delivery was off. I messed up tremendously with my delivery.
I won't say, I don't think my intent was wrong. Yeah.

Speaker 6 I just feel like the way I delivered and expressed that intent was wrong. Oh, I can, yeah.
Do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 7 I understand what you're saying.

Speaker 6 And especially when you're filming a show, and they, and this is like the fourth time they've asked this question, right? It's like,

Speaker 6 all right, you know, how much points is that? Like, what, what's, you know, after a while, it gets super annoying, but I did it because that's a part of our job and we were filming.

Speaker 6 So I just feel like I've been seeing all these comments and the, and the people tagging us.

Speaker 7 And I'm like, Well, I think the biggest one that I see the most is people always play that team where you're like, Well, I don't want a heifer for a wife,

Speaker 7 but they don't know the backstory of it. Like, it's not like you met, it's not like you were saying that I'm a heifer, I'm gonna be a heifer, you know.
But I feel like that's how people take it.

Speaker 7 Like, we joke around shit like that all the time. Like, you always say, like, well, I'm sure you wouldn't want getting down to dirty with somebody who's got a big old beer belly.

Speaker 6 Yeah, like, you're in the clouds, you know what I'm saying? Like, I

Speaker 7 joke about that stuff, yeah.

Speaker 6 And I feel like, in that context, it like I notice a lot of the clips they play, they don't play the afterwords where it was like, well, do you think I'm a heifer? And I'm like, no, my God, no.

Speaker 7 Well, right. Because I don't like TikTok and stuff.
They'll edit it.

Speaker 6 Yeah, but you know.

Speaker 6 So it makes their narrative and it works good for their story. Right.
But I'm like, you know, like that heifer scene, bro, I will never. You'll never go to live that down.
Ever live it down.

Speaker 6 But I think it's interesting because they play it as if I called you one. Yeah, they do.
You think I called you a heifer?

Speaker 7 No, I do not think that you called me a heifer.

Speaker 6 yeah so glad because i remember thinking like you don't like there's no way like i hope that never came across like i was calling you people must really think that i'm just like some abused pushover

Speaker 7 you don't think that that blows my mind i have no clue because as far as just like how we talked in the last episode about you forcing me to do an option now you're calling me a heifer and i just stay with you what the fuck like do people must really think i'm like a weak bitch

Speaker 6 i don't, I think.

Speaker 7 That's how it comes across to me.

Speaker 6 I'm like, wow. I think what they do is they try to understand why, why would this,

Speaker 6 what's an excuse for her to stay or this to work out?

Speaker 7 I don't have to have an excuse.

Speaker 6 And that's the thing. There is no excuse because I never called you a heifer.
It was a producer asking, Tyler, what do you look for? I can't remember what she said.

Speaker 6 And I was like, well, obviously I don't want no.

Speaker 6 I'm being honest. You asked me what I

Speaker 6 wanted or didn't want. And I was being honest.
And I felt like just the same way I'd ask you, like, do you want some big old heffing dude? Right. You're a drinking beer belly guy? And you're like, no.

Speaker 6 And I'm like, all right, cool. Now, I think it's ironic because I think if you said that, I don't think you'd get as much hate.
Probably not. Do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 6 It was the fact that I had said what I said, and then I'm a guy and you're a girl. And I think it just, it, obviously, I get it.
Yes. Looking back.

Speaker 6 But, and then I also feel like when we were doing all those scenes and they were asking, it always brought up when we were eating.

Speaker 7 It was like, yeah, it was all the time.

Speaker 6 It was the pixidia thing. Oh, God, yeah.
Oh, you know, how's the weight loss going as you're taking a bite? And I'm like, oh, it just, it just came across so harsh.

Speaker 7 Well, and I think for me, it was just like, why is this? I just don't understand why it's becoming the whole part of my life.

Speaker 7 My life is so much more than me like wanting to lose weight before I get married, you know?

Speaker 6 Yeah, but also one thing that they don't understand is that it was like two seasons, one where you were pregnant.

Speaker 6 And then they, I thought they just kind of continued on with the weight thing after that because when you were pregnant, you had gestational diabetes. Yeah.

Speaker 6 And your doctor was like, It's a big concern. And you went in there and you gained it.
And there she was like, you can't.

Speaker 7 Yeah. Something, something happened.

Speaker 7 Yeah, but yeah, but I do, I do recall, though, like, I had my gestational diabetes on point. You did?

Speaker 6 Like, yeah.

Speaker 7 I was very, because it scared the shit out of me. Do you remember when I went in there?

Speaker 6 I was like crying, like, oh my God, what am I going to do?

Speaker 7 I can't eat chicken strips with ranch. Like, that was my shit, you know? But so, no, I was very.
And

Speaker 7 so at that point, when I found out that I had just gestational diabetes, I was like so anal about tracking stuff and my sugars were so good and I ended up not gaining any weight after that because I was so like it scared me.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it scared the hell out of me too. And that's what I think people don't understand is that I was making these

Speaker 6 I was making these comments and the in these concerns, I was bringing up these concerns based off of like being concerned.

Speaker 6 I was like, I'm concerned because she had, she lists all those, I went to the appointment with you and she listed all those things that could possibly happen to the baby.

Speaker 6 Yeah, the baby could be bigger, like all that stuff.

Speaker 7 And I'm like, what?

Speaker 6 Like, it so it freaked me out. So, I felt like

Speaker 6 the way it was portrayed was that I was like doing it in a um like an aggressive control thing, like like you motherfucker. What the hell's wrong with you?

Speaker 7 I like seemed to take it in, but it wasn't like that.

Speaker 6 I was concerned, I was scared.

Speaker 7 I was gonna say, you were more, you're more or less concerned for me, my well-being, and the child that is ours that I'm carrying.

Speaker 6 You know, I also feel like it comes down to like, I'm, I'm concerned for your health. I just, so my intent was my concern for your health.
My delivery did not, wasn't very good.

Speaker 6 You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 7 Well, you're very like, I know you, you know, so it's like, they don't. Right.
And I know you on such a deep level where, you know, you're very blunt and very just like, oh, I don't know.

Speaker 7 You know what I mean? But I know what.

Speaker 6 how you are.

Speaker 7 And also people don't see you behind the scenes. But I'm like, shut up, you fucking cocky fuck, you know? Like, you know what I mean? Like, or whatever I need to say.
Like, you're cocky as fuck.

Speaker 7 You know, or I come around and fucking show my finger.

Speaker 6 You know? Dude, I don't know if any other guy's out there, but it's so irritating, dude.

Speaker 6 Because everyone else's wife could just, anytime, anything random and she comes out with this finger trying to shove it up my ass. And I swear to God, I'm like, get out of it.

Speaker 6 Like, it makes me cleanse up.

Speaker 6 Well, yeah,

Speaker 7 it'd be, it would be very weird if you liked it, you know.

Speaker 6 I don't know.

Speaker 7 But yeah, some guys probably like that. Oh, they're out there.
Yeah, so I guess.

Speaker 6 But I feel like, I don't know. I just feel like that, that's something something I see a lot.
And I'm like, I take full accountability for my delivery. It was wrong.
I

Speaker 6 was young. I was naive.
I didn't know about postpartum depression. I didn't know about, like,

Speaker 6 I guess my main thing was that I knew you didn't take it offensively. No, I didn't.
And so if you would have said that, I also asked you to hold me accountable.

Speaker 7 You did.

Speaker 6 So, and so, and they didn't put that on camera.

Speaker 7 Well, that wasn't filmed, though, either.

Speaker 6 Right. But, um, and I asked you, like,

Speaker 6 is this hurting you? Like, are you offended? And you said, No.

Speaker 6 So, I feel like you, you would have, and if you would have said, yeah, that really hurt my feelings, I would have been like, Holy shit, you would felt like

Speaker 6 I was, yeah, that wasn't my intent. Like, oh my God, like, I don't, I'm so sorry.
I didn't mean to say that.

Speaker 6 But looking back at clips and the music they play and how they cut, I mean, I see people's perspective.

Speaker 7 Yeah, and like you said, maybe your delivery was wrong, you know. Do you think my delivery is wrong?

Speaker 7 I mean, I can see like how people could internalize what you said in a different way with your delivery. Yes, yes.

Speaker 6 But you know my, so that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 7 Like, I know we've been together for so fucking, like, do people forget that shit? Like, I don't know.

Speaker 7 We've been together for so long that, like, I just know you as a person and I know that, and also, too, like, I know your heart.

Speaker 7 Like, you're not the type of person that is going to want to say degrading things to me because you love me. Yeah.
And vice versa. So.

Speaker 6 So, and I also feel like I trust you to tell me, hey, that was fucked up or hey, that was more.

Speaker 7 I would say that hurt my feelings.

Speaker 6 Yeah, and I'd be like, oh my God, you know, so I don't know. I just feel like that was something that I see a lot, which I'll probably never let that down.

Speaker 7 Probably not.

Speaker 7 And people are still going to always think that I'm a weak ass bitch. Okay.

Speaker 6 And they're going to still say that I called you a heifer. And that's, I mean, it is what it is.
That's fine.

Speaker 7 Well, if you watch the clip, you don't say, you're a heifer. I don't want you as a wife.

Speaker 7 You said, well, of course, I don't want a heifer for a wife. Like, that's different.

Speaker 6 And I was literally answering the producer. She asked the question.
I was answering her. I was like, well, I don't want no heifer for a wife.
I mean, she asked me that question. Yeah.

Speaker 6 So, like, what I I would want or what I didn't, what I wouldn't want. So I was just answering the question by truth, I guess.
You know what I mean?

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Speaker 6 We're all out of the ordinary.

Speaker 6 But then there's also a scene that I forgot we filmed and it was like we're eating dinner with your dad and his girlfriend at the time.

Speaker 7 I've seen that clip recently.

Speaker 6 And I watch it back. I'm like, oh,

Speaker 6 was rough. That scene was.

Speaker 7 It was cringy. Yeah.

Speaker 6 Yeah, It was bad because it was like the whole table was like, well, yeah, let's go on a 200 calorie diet and blah, blah, blah. Yeah.
And

Speaker 6 they aired my part speaking about how, oh, she used to eat so much, so little.

Speaker 7 And now she's like, oh, right, and they eat like a bird.

Speaker 6 And you said it first. You're like, well, I used to eat so much little.

Speaker 6 And then they, and then I was like, I piggyback off what you said and was like, yeah, she used to eat all the time and get really full.

Speaker 6 And they didn't air the part of you saying it first about you saying, well, I used to eat really not a lot at all. Yeah.
And get full really fast. So it just, but that scene, I was like, ooh, God.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it looked crazy. And then I thought about my, ooh.

Speaker 7 And then my dad was like saying stuff. And he's like, his girlfriend.

Speaker 6 Yeah. I was like, dude.

Speaker 7 And I think I was just irritated with the whole thing. And Michael, my face was just like, oh, my God.

Speaker 6 Because that was probably the fifth or sixth conversation the producer wanted to have.

Speaker 7 That we've had about weight. Yeah.

Speaker 6 That whole, the whole, those two seasons were just.

Speaker 7 Yeah, that was hell.

Speaker 6 It was. It was annoying.

Speaker 7 And it was. Isn't that funny how, too, how like you

Speaker 7 see like clips and stuff that people post? And you're like, I don't even remember filming that. Never even know that was filmed.

Speaker 6 Well, I think a lot of it when you had post-part depression was pretty like blurry. Because I remember you were like on the couch a lot.
And I remember being like, the cameras were coming to film.

Speaker 6 And I remember feeling anxious. Cause I'm like, oh my God, you know, like, maybe we should go film in the kitchen or something because, you know, you were laying down on the couch a lot or whatever.

Speaker 6 And so, like, I remember feeling anxious, like, oh my God, like, I don't want to. I almost look like a couch.
Yeah. No.
No, I almost, I didn't want, I didn't want them to see you in that way.

Speaker 6 Like, I was, I was so, like, worried about you that I was like, I don't want them to see her in this way.

Speaker 7 You're like, this is not my wife.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it's not her. This is not who she is.

Speaker 7 Like, well, we were married at that point, but yeah.

Speaker 6 Yeah, but I didn't know about postpartum depression. So I didn't know that

Speaker 6 was going on. I had no idea.
I just didn't know what was going on. You know what I mean?

Speaker 7 I think it's crazy because, yeah, like I, you know, people ask me questions a lot about the postpartum and stuff. And the weird part for me was I didn't even know that I had it until I was out of it.

Speaker 6 Which is crazy. Yeah.

Speaker 7 It's wild. Like when I was going through it,

Speaker 6 I

Speaker 7 just was going through it, I guess. Like,

Speaker 7 but when I, when I got out of it on the other side of it and looked back, I was like, oh, wow.

Speaker 6 We were very disconnected. You were very like couch, phone, bed.

Speaker 7 Yeah. And I was very,

Speaker 7 I was also was like, I don't think people realize, but that was in the beginning stages also of my mental health decline.

Speaker 7 That was the first time in life that I've ever experienced anything with mental health. Panic attack, yeah.
Yeah, any massive panic attacks out of nowhere or anything.

Speaker 7 So I also was on like a massive high dose of antidepressants, which is crazy because it didn't even help with the postpartum depression.

Speaker 7 Come to find out, you know, years and years down the road, when I did a genetic testing, found out that that medicine wasn't even working within my body.

Speaker 7 So it makes sense why it wouldn't help the postpartum because it wasn't even helping me mentally, let alone.

Speaker 6 You were literally like a robot. And I think people don't really, people like, I think people look back at that.
And a lot of the scenes that were aired were us talking about certain stuff.

Speaker 6 You're late for your appointment. And I, and at that point, I am

Speaker 6 so naive with postpartum depression in general and also just. frustrated that this is happening and I'm not understanding why we're about to get married.
I'm like, who am I marrying?

Speaker 6 What's this is it?

Speaker 6 You know what I mean?

Speaker 6 I'm going through my own shit, but I didn't want to like pour it all out. Yeah.
Because I didn't know what was going on.

Speaker 6 And so I was trying to tread lightly, and I just, I guess I sucked at treading lightly because I am too blunt and I just speak and whatever. Like, I, yeah, I just know I just remember feeling very

Speaker 6 stuck,

Speaker 6 yeah, super like stuck and also concerned that is this the rest of our life? Is this what it's gonna be like? Like, this is crazy.

Speaker 7 Well, and like you said, it comes from just people being uneducated about postpartum depression. And then also, you look at it now.

Speaker 7 I mean, now we're, you know, as we've dug even deeper about the adoption stuff, I never knew that, you know, first moms or birth moms, they have a way higher likelihood of having postpartum depression when they go to parent their children.

Speaker 7 And of course, now that I'm like older and think about it, I'm like, of course, that's totally logical. Like, how could you not? You know,

Speaker 7 your body remembers all the stuff that you went through with this baby that you placed. Of course, it's going to freak out when you have another child.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it's like post-relinquishment parenting, yeah. They call it, they call it like you know, a birth mom who was placed and then she goes on to have other kids.

Speaker 6 Like, post-relinquishing parenting is a super triggering thing, and I think honestly, look back at it, I think it's exactly what happened.

Speaker 6 You had Nova, we were all sure, we're supposed to be happy, and you're like, why am I not like feeling like what's going on? It's like, I think it just was

Speaker 7 subconscious shit.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it was just like your body remembers the score, yeah, your nervous system.

Speaker 7 Like, yeah, because even after we got married and stuff too, I still had it. Like, people think that postpartum depression is only for a few months or it only, and it depends on the person.

Speaker 7 It can last up to like over a year with some people.

Speaker 6 Some are done longer.

Speaker 7 Yeah. And there's very much different degrees of postpartum depression, too.

Speaker 7 I think mine was just like anxiety.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 Yeah, because you, it's not like you didn't bond with Nova. Oh, no, I definitely did.
Yeah, someone like, you know, talk about like not even a bond, didn't really hold, didn't like have the desire.

Speaker 6 And you weren't like that at all. You just seemed very robotic.
And just like, I remember talking to you, and you'd be like, you know, yeah. And I was just like, God, there's nothing.
There's no like

Speaker 6 reciprocal anything.

Speaker 7 And I was overly dosed too.

Speaker 6 And you were like, just, just, just like this numb walking thing.

Speaker 7 I mean, that's definitely how it was.

Speaker 7 I think I couldn't feel anything. I was just there, if that makes sense.
Yeah. That's what I'm saying.
Like, I remember when my great grandma died and I was like, I didn't even cry. Yeah.

Speaker 7 And I was like, how do I not feel?

Speaker 6 I think I even remember remember telling you that like i'm not even like why don't i even just feel sad about it like you didn't feel happy sad excited nothing you were just kind of there neutral yeah very neutral it's so weird when you think about it because you were not ever like that no i knew something was off i just didn't know how to deal with it and like yeah i don't know i just feel i looking back i just feel really bad i wish i would have been more educated.

Speaker 6 I wish someone would have like pulled me aside and said like, hey,

Speaker 6 have you asked for this? Have you tried this? Have you done that? You know what I mean? I was just trying to like fit, I was almost like trying to pretend like it would just go away.

Speaker 7 Well, don't beat yourself up too bad about it. I mean, we all didn't know

Speaker 6 what was going on. I was, I was, I was, um,

Speaker 6 what do you call it?

Speaker 7 I was worried, frustrated, angry.

Speaker 6 It was worried for sure, but I think the worry manifested in a frustration because I'm like, all right, get up. We're gonna go for a walk.

Speaker 6 You're gonna like, come on, like, like, you know, and then when you just didn't want to do it, or you had no enthusiasm, I was like, I just want to shake you. Like, what's wrong with you?

Speaker 6 Like, you you know what I mean? Like, so that concern turned into frustration.

Speaker 6 I think the frustration is what was delivered when we were filming because they wanted to, of course, dive deep into that. Oh, she's on the, oh, what's going on? And I'm like,

Speaker 6 you know, so, yeah, I don't know. I just feel bad.
I feel if I can go back in time, I wish I would have been, you know, much more educated and more soft.

Speaker 7 Well, and obviously, you must have, you must have had a

Speaker 7 change of thinking or mind eventually because it wasn't even documented.

Speaker 7 But I mean, when you came up to our room, you know, um, when I was upstairs laying in bed, and you just said, Something's wrong. Are you okay? And then it gave me the freedom where I just broke down.

Speaker 7 I was like, No, I don't think I'm okay. Like, I think something's wrong here, you know?

Speaker 6 First, I remember at first like, I don't know. And I was like,

Speaker 6 You don't know? Like, I mean, usually people answer, like, yeah, I'm good, or no, I'm not. You were like, I don't know.
And I'm like, That's, that's what I'm saying. Like, yeah.

Speaker 6 And yeah, like, I remember like going up to the room too, because obviously when you went up there to take a nap, I just left, you know, I'm like, whatever, it's fine.

Speaker 6 But I remember going up there, I'm like, I can't do this anymore.

Speaker 6 Because I remember thinking in my head, it comes to a point when you're dealing with someone else who has a mental illness or has something going on where

Speaker 6 burnout fatigue. It's like you get

Speaker 6 the caretaker gets like caretaking fatigue. They get burnt out.
They feel whatever they feel. And so I felt like I can't do this anymore.
Right.

Speaker 6 Because then what? If I lose myself by trying to always protect this, then what? Well, right. Now Nova's got two parents who are checked out.
You know what I mean? Because I'm over here,

Speaker 6 you know, whatever. So I remember going up to the room and just being like, we got it.
Something's got to, something's got to happen.

Speaker 7 Right. Something's got to change.
Well, I remember you were the very, you were a driving force to be like, we're going to go see a psychiatrist.

Speaker 7 Like, there's people you can talk to, you know, all of the things. Because, and also, I feel like that's,

Speaker 7 it was a blessing that I had you in my life during that time because you,

Speaker 7 your mental health journey started at a younger age. So you kind of knew about

Speaker 7 seeing psychiatrists and therapists and thing like things like that. Mine literally just smacked me in my face when I was like 20.
Or 21 or something. Yeah.

Speaker 7 And I never experienced anything like that in my entire life. So I was like, what is this feeling? This is scary.
You know, so,

Speaker 7 and you

Speaker 7 knew kind of the steps to push me in the right direction to help myself.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it was scary.

Speaker 7 I mean, oh, yeah, it was scary for me.

Speaker 6 But I also feel like people don't know what it's like to be the other person. They're like, oh, oh my God, you know, I feel so bad.
She's depressed.

Speaker 6 But no one knows what it's like when you love somebody watching them do it. Yeah.
Watching them just crumble in front of you. And like, you can't do anything about it.

Speaker 6 Like, it's like you feel so helpless. It's like, oh, my God, like, what do I do? So I feel like at the same time, I was going through my own stuff, just putting it on the back burner.

Speaker 6 Yeah, which is not fair. Well, no, but knowing that I'll come back to this.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 Like you said, I had a little bit more experience with like therapy and stuff like that, being a younger kid. So I knew I I was like, I'm just going to put this in the back burner.
I'll visit later.

Speaker 6 Yeah. But you were the priority at that point.
So I feel like,

Speaker 6 you know, I just, I don't know. I just feel like the postpartum depression stuff needs to be talked about more.

Speaker 7 Like, I mean, it does. You hear these stories on the news of that one, you know, the one mom killing all three of her kids and jumping out of the window trying to kill herself.

Speaker 7 There's been a newer story, too, about this mom shooting all of her kids and then shooting herself.

Speaker 7 And they're all linked back to postpartum depression. And it's because there aren't enough resources out into the world to help women.
I mean, you go to your doctors and you answer like a test.

Speaker 7 And if they, if you come up that you feel like you have postpartum, they're like, here's some pills. But nobody directs you into like, here's, you need to go to therapy.
It's normal. It's okay.

Speaker 7 Here's support. Like there needs to be more support for women after birth.

Speaker 6 Yep.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 just help out there.

Speaker 6 Well, it's one of those things, too. Like you said,

Speaker 6 you go to the doctor and they say, here's some pills. That's half the treatment plan.
Right. Any psychiatrist or therapist will tell you pills are half 50%.

Speaker 6 The other 50% is therapy. Like, dude, you can't just take a pill.

Speaker 6 If you could just take a pill, everyone would be out of pill. We would have no mental health crises, right? We just take a pill and everything would be fine.

Speaker 7 Yeah, that doesn't sell the therapy.

Speaker 6 So that's the whole point: pills are 50%

Speaker 6 of the treatment plan. Yeah.
And I think a lot of people don't understand that.

Speaker 7 Maybe even 50%.

Speaker 6 Yeah. I mean, it's...

Speaker 7 It might be a little less because you haven't heard cock therapy and shit. It's hard-ass work.

Speaker 6 Hard to sell and scary. Yeah.
Like, super scary.

Speaker 7 But I don't think people realize, too, when you talk about being the other person and watching your person that you love too, those people need support too.

Speaker 7 Like the caretaker, you know, the burnt out fatigue.

Speaker 6 Yeah. I didn't know about it at all.
So my therapist was like, oh, you, you're, you're burnt out. And I'm like, okay.

Speaker 6 I'm a dad. And yeah, like, sure.
Yeah. She's like, no, no, no, you're not understanding.
It's like a thing. That's like a caretaking fatigue.

Speaker 6 Like, you literally, and say, and they can lead into caretaking, you can get depressed. Right.

Speaker 7 Oh, it makes sense.

Speaker 6 And I remember, like I said, I was freaked out because I'm like, oh my God, I can't afford that. I said, we can't both be depressed people.

Speaker 6 You know, like, oh, shit. And it was like 10 months.

Speaker 6 I can't figure it out. Yeah, yeah.
I'm like, oh, my God. Like, what? And so I remember like learning about it and reading about it.
And, oh, okay, like, this is what I got to do.

Speaker 6 And that's when I kind of

Speaker 6 make sense, though. That's when I was kind of like, okay, I can't put this in the back burner for too much comfort.
No. Bringing it forward.
Mm-hmm. But

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Speaker 6 Yeah, I just think, yeah, I think the

Speaker 6 post-birth resources for women should be higher.

Speaker 7 And I think, yeah, like I said, I vividly remember you go to your OB, answer like a little spreadsheet, yes or no questions, one out of 10.

Speaker 7 And they're like, oh, you're okay, or oh, you're mild, or oh, you're severe. And it's like, well, here, go, you know, you had to have to get on a Zoloft or whatever.
And it's like, yeah, okay, but.

Speaker 7 What about like support groups or psychiatrists or just counseling?

Speaker 6 I think there's a of things out there now where, you know, like people talk about their experience. And also, like, what about genetic testing?

Speaker 6 Like, why are we not genetic testing is what you do to figure out what your body metabolizes as far as medication goes. It works for everything from Tylenol to antipsychotics.

Speaker 6 I'll tell you exactly what medication will not work and what medication will work.

Speaker 6 Why we're not implementing that into the medical field is weird to me.

Speaker 6 Like, that should be literally a paid-for-insurance covered thing where you get a genetic test done every time that you go to a doctor.

Speaker 6 And then, once you get that list, you know, okay, that why, why be guinea pig? Yeah, in medications.

Speaker 7 I don't know because I mean, when I was in, when I was in treatment, and the doctor there was like, I think you should, you know, do you want to do genetic testing?

Speaker 7 And he explained it to me about how, yeah, you don't have to do the guinea pig stuff and you find out what works for your body. I was like, absolutely fucking litly.

Speaker 6 It was expensive, but it was worth it.

Speaker 7 Yeah, my insurance wouldn't cover it, but I was like, I don't care. Like, that's important to me.

Speaker 7 And then I got the results back, and he was was like, You were on 200 milligrams of Zoloft and your body was only metabolizing like 20, 25 milligrams. And I was on the highest dose.

Speaker 7 And I was like, Oh my gosh, it makes complete sense. And even with him, he was like, Of course you're still experiencing all these things, even when you're doing therapy and stuff.

Speaker 6 And so, which I think it brings up a good point: people say, Oh, she got back from treatment, went back to it, going back to it.

Speaker 6 It's like, No, no, no, she went back to treatment because her symptoms were not

Speaker 6 gone.

Speaker 7 They weren't gone. Well, because now we know why.
Well, because the first time I went there, I didn't switch any medications, nothing.

Speaker 7 I went there for like really intense therapy, and it helped a lot. It did, but then I came home and I felt like something was still off.
And I was like, you know, I need to go back.

Speaker 7 I think I need to switch my meds and stuff. And then I went back, did the genetic testing, still was doing very intense therapies and stuff like that.

Speaker 7 And then when my results came back, that the medication I was taking wasn't even working for my body, we switched my medications, all of that, continued on with therapy.

Speaker 7 And honestly, it literally changed my life. Yep.

Speaker 6 Genetic testing. Isn't that crazy?

Speaker 7 Changed my life because now I'm on the lowest dose of an antidepressant medicine that you can take. And I don't feel like a zombie.
I still have emotions and feelings. I can still have conversations.

Speaker 7 And I just feel, I honestly, it saved my life. I feel like.

Speaker 6 I think it did too. Because I remember after the six weeks or whatever, after you being on the new stuff, I was like, oh, wow, like there's...

Speaker 6 a little bit, I can see a little bit of light coming back. Right.
Yeah, it really changed.

Speaker 7 It changed my life for sure.

Speaker 7 And I think, you know, it's been a journey for me, but I feel like it, people are always, you know, I see people say like, oh, you're, you were so selfish and you left Tyler to take on everything.

Speaker 6 And I'm glad you were.

Speaker 7 And yada, yada, yada. But my whole thing, too, going into it, though, was like, if I'm not 100%

Speaker 7 me, I can't even be nothing for my children, let alone my husband or myself. Like, I want to be the best that I can be, you know?

Speaker 6 And I think. I'm proud of you because I think in spite of that, like you were worried about, oh my God, he's going to be

Speaker 6 a burden and he's going to feel this and he's going to feel that. But you still were like,

Speaker 6 it's worth the risk.

Speaker 7 I had to do it for myself.

Speaker 6 I had to do it. I remember I'm just, I looked back and like, damn, I'm so glad I did that because we wouldn't have to do it.

Speaker 7 I mean, and believe me, like, it ain't no fucking vacation or walk, like a cake walk when you're at those places.

Speaker 7 There was lots of tearful nights, tearful days of clinging on to Nova's little stuffed animal all the time. You know what I mean? Like, and you're, because you're working, like, it's very intense.

Speaker 7 Emotionally exhausting very and you're missing your family and your family can't always come to for visits and you know fuck i was there for fucking christmas one like that shit sucked thanksgiving you know what i mean like it sucked but i knew i had to do it for myself so that way i could be 100 percent me to then show up as a wife and as a mom um

Speaker 7 and it was scary but it definitely it changed my life.

Speaker 6 I think it saved it. Yeah.
So I don't know what would have happened.

Speaker 7 And I've commented or even like said stuff to people before where I'm like oh, okay, so Nova could have a mom that was gone for you know six weeks 12 weeks or she could have a dead mom. Yeah, so

Speaker 7 What's what's worse?

Speaker 6 Oh, it's true, and that's why I think people don't understand is that and also like I remember remember telling you that I can't do this anymore if this is what it's gonna be like then we just we're not gonna work because There comes a point in time where I have to retreat and I have to figure out my shit.

Speaker 6 And I think when you got back from treatment, that's when I felt the freedom to do so I was like okay I well you could tell that I was okay I was getting my shit yeah learning yeah and then you got back I'm like all right you feel I feel good I'm gonna now I'm gonna put the back on the front burner right and I and I think people

Speaker 6 um criticized me a lot for that which is fine I mean they criticize you for leaving they criticize me for

Speaker 6 uh but we're always gonna be criticized that's what we're here for uh but i remember getting criticized because it was like oh

Speaker 6 you know now you're going to do a trial separation. Now you're going to do all these things.
And it wasn't a bit.

Speaker 7 Which, by the way, he actually spent the night at my house a lot. He couldn't leave.

Speaker 7 I was like, I thought we were supposed to be like separated. And you're still coming over here every night.

Speaker 6 I can't help it. I couldn't help it.
I thought that's.

Speaker 7 He wants to play Big Bad.

Speaker 6 No,

Speaker 6 I fully admit I was a bitch. I didn't do the therapist that I was seeing.
I mean, you did for

Speaker 6 the therapist that I was seeing was like,

Speaker 6 this is what it's called. And it's called, you know, you just kind of like, you know, just separate the focus on yourself for a little bit.
That's what it feels like.

Speaker 6 And then I remember going to my therapist after a week of it. And I was like, no, it ain't for me.
And she's like, well, why? And I'm like, well, because

Speaker 6 I said, I don't, I want to be with my wife. I want to be with my kid.

Speaker 7 I said, and I supported it. Like, it was hard for me.

Speaker 6 Yeah, no, I know.

Speaker 7 And I know it was hard for you too. Like, it was a hard thing, you know.

Speaker 7 But I feel like I was like, if you feel like that's something that you need for yourself, then do it. Yeah.

Speaker 6 Yeah. because I think that's, I mean, that's what it was required, I think, for me.
Cause I was like, I have to do this or else, what am I going to do? I didn't want to work out child separation was.

Speaker 7 I was like, he loves me.

Speaker 6 It was an epic fail.

Speaker 7 But I do remember there was a part of me, like, when I was at my mom's one time, and

Speaker 7 my friend showed up at my mom's house. And I remember like crying.
And I was like, what if he divorces me? Who's going to want to be with somebody who has two kids? I was so scared.

Speaker 7 Remember how I would mess with you all the time and be like, you're going to divorce me.

Speaker 6 No, I remember

Speaker 6 the very first time you ever asked me that, I said, divorce is not even on my radar.

Speaker 7 Again, I was like, that's bullshit.

Speaker 6 It wasn't even close. I wasn't even thinking about divorcing.
I'm thinking about I got to separate myself from the.

Speaker 6 And I think it was important for me to do that because when you were gone, I got in robot mode of kind of like monitoring your depression, making sure Noah was good.

Speaker 6 And I got in like, you know, my own dad robotic mode. And I knew that I had to like remove myself from it.

Speaker 7 so that way I could like look at it from a different perspective and you deserved the time to I mean yeah because me leaving put a lot on your desire yeah it's hard I mean missing and then on top of it you know it's like being a single dad yeah I mean schools and yeah just all of it and so um I knew I needed to get out of it no it makes sense for your own mental health for a week it was longer than a week but you would come over and spend the night

Speaker 6 yeah

Speaker 6 and then I remember thinking feeling guilty I'm like oh I gotta go back to the house because my therapist told me I gotta do this last why I feel like I'm breaking the rules. I'm not listening.

Speaker 7 Well, I feel like it's important when you were going through that just to feel like you needed to do whatever was necessary for your own self.

Speaker 6 And I look back at it now and it wasn't necessary.

Speaker 7 But maybe it was. I don't know.

Speaker 6 I don't think it was because I, and I'm not saying don't listen to your therapist. I'm saying follow your intuition.
My intuition never told me to do the trial separation. My intuition was saying.

Speaker 6 Then why did you do it? I, because I, I, I'm not a professional therapist. Okay.
And she, and she was talking about all these things.

Speaker 6 And I'm like, okay, so maybe, maybe there's things I think your therapist just deep down hated me honestly no I do I always got bad vibes from her really yeah you did no way swear I was like she is fucking warping his brain

Speaker 6 are you serious I mean she helped me allow alphas I mean she talked no that stuff yeah but some of the scenes and stuff I've seen I'm like oh she hates me she thinks I'm crazy Wow I never got okay I mean I get I guess what you're watching it from your whatever okay yeah but I mean I don't know all I know is my intuition was saying otherwise but i knew i had to be logical because i'm not a mental health professional and i could be right addicted to you or i could be whatever the fuck was going on we're trauma bonded yeah we're trauma bonded oh my yeah that's why i'm just a weak ass bit listen i'll be honest with you everyone out there if if if what if we're trauma bonded i really highly suggest it right

Speaker 6 because we

Speaker 7 and honestly we have sat down with very very smart professionals and asked the question if we are trauma bonded and we got the word absolutely not and they also also said that everyone to a point, if you're with someone long enough throughout a period of your life,

Speaker 6 you will bond over trauma. It works.
It won't be the only bond you have. No.
But you go through, like, for instance, growing up and being married for a long time, you know, the spouse's parent dies.

Speaker 6 That's trauma. Right.
You're going to bond over that. You are.
Of course. So I think it's interesting when Dr.
Mike was like, well, everyone's trauma bonded.

Speaker 6 And I was like, whoa, whoa, what does that mean? And he's like, well, everyone, he's like, what I mean by, is that there's a healthy level and there's a toxic level, right?

Speaker 6 He's like, And, but everyone, just like everyone to a point is codependent, yeah, we have to be or else all babies would die, we'd all we'd all die.

Speaker 6 I mean, so, um, he's like, It just there's a there's a spectrum and a level of where it's where it's toxic.

Speaker 7 We need to get him on here and talk to us about trauma bonding. So, put the

Speaker 7 record straight, yeah, because he was like, Absolutely not. The bad trauma bondage is when you're like abusing each other and be, you know, just very toxic things, yeah.

Speaker 6 Um,

Speaker 7 so it's like, okay, so if you're going through something hard and I'm supporting you and loving you and doing good things for you to make you feel better, that's trauma bonded. Okay.

Speaker 6 Okay. Well, love it.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 Well, we love each other. I don't know.
Bring it. You call it trauma bond.
I call it support and love. And I don't know what else to call it.

Speaker 7 I don't. Yeah.
I don't understand it.

Speaker 6 Hey, if we're trauma bonded, I highly suggest it for people. So

Speaker 7 I mean, I've confirmed that we're not because we've got confirmed from multiple people, but hey, I like I said before, and I'll probably, people hear me probably say it a lot on here, is like, well, I sleep good at night next to you.

Speaker 7 So, and I enjoy our cuddles and our snuggles. So, you know,

Speaker 6 we're not abused. And, you know what I mean?

Speaker 7 Like, people think I am.

Speaker 6 Well, I, well, it's like when I.

Speaker 7 You control all of my things.

Speaker 6 I'm a dictating motherfucker.

Speaker 6 But people,

Speaker 6 like.

Speaker 6 It's also even with our friends and stuff. I'll see like and hear some of their issues in their relationships.
And I'm like, dude. Whoa.

Speaker 6 yeah they think we're like i mean like dude like i don't think people understand we don't fight no we don't we don't raise our voice nothing no and we've never called each other out of our like our names yeah nothing it's almost like kind of weird that like i almost like something wrong with us because why are we it's not nothing wrong with us no i tell you our close people yeah they you just don't learn how to communicate we have done such a good job of like well and honey we've been together for like what this year will be what 18 years yeah 18 fucking years.

Speaker 7 Yeah, and we've done a lot of work throughout all of the years, you know?

Speaker 7 So, of course.

Speaker 6 I just think it's interesting, though, how it's like people, well, well, every couple of fights, and I'm like, that's not true.

Speaker 7 No, I think

Speaker 6 you fight. It's how you fight.

Speaker 7 Right. Like, do we have disagreements? Of course.
Can we talk about them? Of course.

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Speaker 6 But I'm saying, like, I would never consider anything that we've had a fight, in my opinion.

Speaker 7 No, I think the only fight I can ever recall was the one time.

Speaker 6 Do you remember that? Are you thinking what I'm thinking? I don't know. Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Speaker 7 When we lived on Clinton Street.

Speaker 6 And you threw the keys in my face.

Speaker 7 Oh, no. I think I was pregnant with Carly at that time, wasn't I? I don't know.
The only one I can think of, so yeah is that one when i threw the keys at your face yeah

Speaker 7 and then the other one when we were drinking though this was before kids or anything

Speaker 6 drinking like 20 or something

Speaker 7 yeah and we like got in a fight in ryan terhune's car

Speaker 7 and then i was like walking down the street dirt road always yeah and then you were chasing me and then we got home

Speaker 6 got home and then we were arguing about like who each other followed on fucking facebook oh wow i remember that part yeah i remember remember the fight walking on the dirt road all drunk, trying to catch you.

Speaker 6 Like, no, no, let my girlfriend walk down the road. I was like, we got to get her, dude.

Speaker 7 By the way, we were not drunk driving.

Speaker 6 We had a drive. No, yeah, he was drunk.
Yeah, he wasn't. But we were like, I'll remember saying, don't let her walk.
I'm walking home. I'm like, dude, we're 50 miles from home in the back roads.

Speaker 7 And the started it.

Speaker 6 I don't know either.

Speaker 6 But yeah, like, we don't, there's, I mean, we just don't fight. So I feel like, and I'm saying, like, it's not if you fight, it's how you fight.
Right.

Speaker 6 And I I think how we fight, I wouldn't call it a fight, but how we disagree

Speaker 6 is

Speaker 6 not

Speaker 6 toxic. It's not.

Speaker 7 No, it's healthy.

Speaker 7 We have a conversation and we always come up, come to a conclusion.

Speaker 7 I think me and you are both the same in the sense of like, I would, I cannot go to sleep without having a fucking conversation and coming to a conclusion.

Speaker 7 Even if that occlusion is like, you can do it, but I just don't agree with it or whatever, but I cannot.

Speaker 7 Like, I gotta figure out a solution for us right now.

Speaker 6 Yeah. And I think it's important because it's like one of those old cliche things about don't go to sleep mad at each other.
That's a legit thing.

Speaker 7 Well, that's my personality, though. I wouldn't be able to just sit next to you in bed.
I'd be like, I'd be like,

Speaker 6 or like, I noticed a lot of like people we know, they'll like just pretend that nothing ever happened.

Speaker 7 Yeah, which that's the worst.

Speaker 6 And that's the worst. I could never deal with that anxiety.

Speaker 7 The sweeping the shit under the rug. It's always going to come back up and bite you, by the way.

Speaker 6 I could not. I couldn't do it.

Speaker 7 Absolutely not.

Speaker 7 One thing going back to mental health, though, I do remember my first psych class in college learning about how if you're going to have a mental illness, it always typically comes before the age of 22 when you will have like a

Speaker 7 like that by that time. If you pass 22, it's like way less likely for you to come and have a mental health illness or whatever.
And I remember being so mad that I fucking didn't make it one year.

Speaker 7 I was like, this is some bullshit. It had to be handed to me right at fucking 21.
I mean, I look at my like my childhood and shit, everything that I went through, adoption, all of that.

Speaker 7 I'm like, of course, how could I not? Fuck. But I remember being pissed about that.
I'm like, wow. If it would have just waited one fucking year.
Fucking year.

Speaker 6 But your panic attack was pretty bad.

Speaker 7 And I don't think people realize that it literally, I've never experienced anything like that in my life.

Speaker 7 And then to literally be woken up out of a steep sleep with the, I thought I was having a heart attack. I went to the hospital three times, made them give me EKGs.

Speaker 7 I didn't know what the fuck was happening.

Speaker 6 Yeah, that was wild.

Speaker 7 It was a, it was bad. But thankfully, years and years out of it,

Speaker 7 I do. I'm glad that I went through what I went through because now I'm so freaking self-aware.
Like, I can tell to a T, like, oh, I need to call my counselor, or, you know, like,

Speaker 6 even with something with your mom recently and stuff, you're like, I'm calling.

Speaker 7 Yep, I got to talk to somebody, process this with somebody.

Speaker 6 And it's kind of crazy because look at the polarity. Like, I don't need to come in the bedroom and say, hey, are you okay? Something's wrong with you.

Speaker 6 You go,

Speaker 6 something's wrong with me.

Speaker 6 I got to call.

Speaker 7 It's all about learning and growth and, you know, learning about what tools you need and all that.

Speaker 6 Well, I'm part of you.

Speaker 7 Thanks. Well, thank you for being there for me.
Yeah, I love you. And for Nova, and I love you too much.
Let's just hope Nova doesn't carry any trauma from that.

Speaker 6 I don't, I mean, I hope not.

Speaker 6 I don't know, honey. We're gonna undoubtedly traumatize our fucking kids eventually, so, in one way or another, right?

Speaker 7 Okay, so moving on.

Speaker 6 Yeah,

Speaker 7 I do have one more thing to say about it, but I don't know.

Speaker 6 What? What you mean?

Speaker 7 Well, one of my things is what also is like fucked up with the world.

Speaker 7 We talked about postpartum depression and there being no, you know, like not a lot of things out there for women as far as help when it comes to that. I think another really messed up part is

Speaker 7 if you do not have money

Speaker 7 and you have a mental health illness, they want you to stay sick

Speaker 7 because the amount of money that I spent out of my own pocket for my my mental health is ridiculous. It is.

Speaker 6 And it's wrong. We're the only country that has a sickness.

Speaker 7 So they want us, they want the poor to stay sick and poor, and they want the rich to

Speaker 7 stay mentally well and rich. Enabled.
And that's horrible.

Speaker 6 It is.

Speaker 7 Any Joe Smo

Speaker 7 from the walks of any part of the earth that is struggling with mental health deserves to get help. I agree.

Speaker 6 And it should be covered.

Speaker 7 Absolutely.

Speaker 6 It's a mental health thing. Absolutely.
But I think it's the whole problem is that we have to eventually get to a point where we're looking at it as a real,

Speaker 6 we need to look at mental health the same way you look at diabetes. Oh my God, you have diabetes.
You diagnose? Okay, great.

Speaker 6 EpiPen, diet change, like, you know, you get a treatment plan. Right.
We need to literally look at mental health the same exact way. And so it's an illness.

Speaker 6 To incorporate the mental health into the full biology of

Speaker 6 health issues. You know what I'm saying? Stop separating it.
Yeah. And stop like demonizing it.
And stop, like, you know, just don't stop. Stop doing that.
It's a health problem.

Speaker 7 Yeah. It's sick.
It's coming on, dude. Because, like I said, Nova could have a dead mom

Speaker 7 or a mom that had to go somewhere to put in some work.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Or divorced parents who are, yeah, that's a whole, yeah.
So it's like.

Speaker 7 And I don't think people realize that. Like, I literally was at the point where I was like, I cannot live another day like this.
Like, I would rather be dead.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 And that's what I was concerned about. I knew something was wrong.
I'm like, dude, I really, yeah, I just, yeah.

Speaker 7 And that's not a good feeling. No, no.
Suicide, suicidal ideation is fucking real.

Speaker 6 And I also think it's crazy too, because I'm just glad that you never had to deal with it, like watching some.

Speaker 6 Because I think, I like, I think you'd have a hard time if you watched me just like completely just like, oh my God, horrible times. It's just like, because you're, you start, it's hard.

Speaker 6 I'd be doing what you did.

Speaker 7 I'll be like, all right, we're going here.

Speaker 6 Yeah. We're talking to this person.
Also, it's hard not to question, is something wrong with me? No. Remember when I was like, it's got to be me.

Speaker 6 I got to be like, you know, you're like, no, Tyler, it's nothing with you. It's me.
It's my own shit. It's my mom.
It's my life. It's my trauma.
And I'm like, are you sure?

Speaker 6 Because, you know what I mean? Like, it's hard not to internalize it. Like, okay, she's just not happy with me or something.
You know what I mean? Right.

Speaker 7 When Dex is like, no, I just have a bunch of shit in here that I can't figure out on my own.

Speaker 6 But I need to figure it out.

Speaker 7 Yeah. So that shit should be free.
It should. There was a few times where I was like, I'm about to go check myself into the loomie bin in New Baltimore.
You were like, absolutely not.

Speaker 6 Oh, you're not.

Speaker 7 And I'm like, well, I need to go somewhere. Yeah.

Speaker 7 Shit, put me on a, I need a sticky grip sock vacation in the fucking

Speaker 7 hospital. Put me on a 72-hour hold, bitch.
You know, paper-dressed sticky sock vacation.

Speaker 6 Padded room vacation.

Speaker 7 That's where I was at.

Speaker 7 Straight up.

Speaker 6 Damn.

Speaker 7 Tell you what, this sounds good right now. I need a 72-hour hold.

Speaker 6 No, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 7 Oh, shit. So I did get some unlicensed advice questions.

Speaker 6 Okay.

Speaker 6 unlicensed advice i love it okay

Speaker 7 so i wrote down four different questions but

Speaker 6 um

Speaker 7 one is

Speaker 6 how do you have a relationship with a toxic parent without getting hurt i would say boundaries is the only it's the only way to do it because it i mean boundaries and i think people should understand the difference between boundaries and ultimatums.

Speaker 7 Yeah, you can't give ultimatums.

Speaker 6 They are two different things. And I think people can sometimes like mesh them together and they're not.

Speaker 7 I think it's hard to.

Speaker 6 And well, a boundary is to protect me.

Speaker 6 And an ultimatum is to control somebody else and their actions. And their behavior.
Right. That's you can never control somebody else's behavior.
Impossible. Can't do it.
Wasted time.

Speaker 6 You're going to drive yourself crazy trying to do something.

Speaker 7 Right.

Speaker 6 So, you know, so you can't

Speaker 6 just first off get those two things out of your mind. Where I think people go, my boundary is you don't, you don't stop doing this.
I'm going to do this.

Speaker 6 That you, you know, a boundary is not a response to them doing something wrong or bad in spite to spite them. It's, it's, it's for yourself.
It's to protect yourself.

Speaker 6 It's, it's, right, you know what I mean? Right.

Speaker 7 Yeah. Like, for instance, so with my mom, you know, I had to create boundaries in order to make myself feel comfortable and safe.

Speaker 7 And my boundaries with her is just don't drink around me and don't drink around my kids.

Speaker 7 If you're going to drink, let me know ahead of time and I'll say, all right, I'll come, we'll get together next weekend or whatever. I'm not saying you can't ever drink.

Speaker 6 Right.

Speaker 7 You know, because then that's me trying to control her. It's just.

Speaker 6 So in a way, it's almost like your boundaries, actually, more or less like your boundaries to yourself. Like, my boundary is I will leave and remove myself from the situation if I notice her drinking.

Speaker 6 Right. That's the boundary.
Yes. The boundary has nothing to do with her.

Speaker 6 you know, person personal behavior. It's like, okay, well, boundaries are also really,

Speaker 6 nobody can enforce a boundary but you. Right.
The person can't,

Speaker 6 you are in control of enforcing the boundary or not.

Speaker 7 And make yourself feel powerful in enforcing it. In doing that.
Because it can be scary to enforce your boundaries.

Speaker 6 Especially when you're so used to a certain dynamic. Yes.
It's hard to break that. I was calling it.

Speaker 7 Oh, God. Yeah.

Speaker 6 And I remember it's funny because I remember bringing it up to you like years in your relationship where I'm like, you have a, you and your mom have a certain dance you do.

Speaker 6 And that's the only thing I could explain it. I'd watch it happen in real time.

Speaker 6 And come to find out, it was like your dynamic. That's the dynamic you created with your mom.
And so it takes one person to stop moving. I'm going to stop dancing.
Yep.

Speaker 6 Another person starts going, whoa, you missed a step. We got a twirl.
What are you doing? You know what I mean? Yeah, you're like, I'm not doing this. I'm not dancing the right way.
Right.

Speaker 6 Well, I'm actually just kind of stopping this dance. I'm stopping this dynamic.
I'm switching it

Speaker 6 to something more healthy for me.

Speaker 7 And unfortunately, too, I think to other advice for this person is,

Speaker 7 you know, if your parent is not respecting your boundaries, then you might have to step away for a while

Speaker 7 and just say, like, if it's her still hurting you in a sense, then, and they're not respecting what you asked to make you feel safe, then I think you need to kind of cut ties with that person.

Speaker 6 Temporarily or permanently, just or whatever feels right to you.

Speaker 7 Yeah. And kind of re-evaluate after the fact.

Speaker 6 Yeah. I agree.

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Speaker 6 Um, okay.

Speaker 7 I have another one, another one that said, um, how do I talk to my partner about not being satisfied in the bedroom without hurting them?

Speaker 6 I would just, first off, I'd be honest. You have to be honest and communicate.
Yeah. I mean, I think

Speaker 6 going into it with the intention of trying not to hurt their feelings is going to be messy.

Speaker 7 Right. And just go into it.
Maybe go into it in the fact of like, we're going to make our sex life fire.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Like going to it, being like, my goal is to make this.
amazing. Right.
Not to criticize you, not to judge you, not to make you feel like shit about yourself.

Speaker 6 It's to literally just, I'm trying to get the best out of this, right?

Speaker 6 So

Speaker 7 I because it is hard.

Speaker 6 I can understand like I get it being nervous. Yeah, especially if it has something to do with them, like and this was a female.

Speaker 7 Oh, talking about a male. Okay.
Yeah. So I can get where she's like, I don't, you know, I don't want to hurt his feelings or make him feel like anything.

Speaker 6 I guess, I guess, I guess my thing is, though, is that you can't worry about hurting his feelings. You first need to just ask yourself, what do I want? What do I need? What am I missing?

Speaker 6 And then you fill in the gaps. You don't need to tell him why you're like, well, it's like, just, okay, this is what I want.
This is what I need.

Speaker 6 And then my whole thing is that like, it's completely a possibility that what you want or what you need, he can't do. Okay.

Speaker 6 And that is something that I think people need to like get comfortable with. Then what do you do?

Speaker 6 It's a whole different.

Speaker 6 Okay, right. Right.
So we got to first establish this is what I need. Can you provide yes or no? Okay.

Speaker 6 Right. And then I think asking yourself the question to yourself first before asking him

Speaker 6 i need this and it's like well he can't do that you know what i'm saying like like and then kind of like kind of prioritizing it in your own head before coming to him and saying it because that by if you do it to yourself in your head you can go okay oh but you know that could help and so i definitely think don't approach him without having your own solution but i thought about it what i want and what i need and here's a solution you know what i mean and that i thought of Do you have any solutions?

Speaker 6 Is there anything I can do? Also, I think reciprocating, like, hey, I'm going to tell you what I wish you could do better or what I'm missing or what I need.

Speaker 6 And then invite him to do the same exact thing. Yeah.

Speaker 7 To say, what, okay, because there might be things he's not telling you.

Speaker 6 Exactly. And that's what's kind of creating this weird, like, oh,

Speaker 6 I didn't say nothing because I don't want to hurt your feelings. I don't want to hurt your feelings.
And it's like, well, you know what? If we're on this for the long haul, I've always said this.

Speaker 6 I'm not afraid to hurt your feelings. I can apologize later on.
Yeah. If it happens, but we got to get to the nitty-gritty.

Speaker 6 We got to be real and talk to each other because me and you are a firm believer that that is one of the

Speaker 7 pinnacles you have to be honest you have to be honest you have to communicate and and you have to have a healthy sex life it's it's yeah it's that's it i mean and like when so when i saw her question too i was like how well like what would i do in that situation yeah what would you do i was thinking like all right if i was in that situation like when we were getting it on i'd be like oh like talk even in that sense when it's happening like oh when you do this it feels really good right you know do that again or that was really, that was really great.

Speaker 6 Or, oh, that hurt. Don't do that.

Speaker 7 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, you know, because it's, you don't have to be like silence.
Right, right. It's like quiet in the middle of being intimate.
Like, speak about what feels good.

Speaker 7 What doesn't feel good?

Speaker 6 I think sometimes that's also better because you're in the moment. It's organic.
You're not like, you don't have time to go, oh, man. All right.
She didn't like that last night.

Speaker 7 Right. So maybe that's what I'm saying.
It's easier too for her if you don't want to hurt his feelings. Like, oh, when you do this, this, that feels fucking amazing.

Speaker 7 Or when you do, when you do this, that, oh, nope, that hurts.

Speaker 6 Or I don't like that. That's weird.
Right. I don't know.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 i mean i guess i'm thinking about oh my god i don't know if i don't if we're in the middle of doing something you're like ew don't do that but oh right well you don't say like that you say ah no that hurts

Speaker 6 you're just talking about pain

Speaker 6 i know not every girl's getting hurt so what i'm saying is that like if it's not having to do with pain and you're just like

Speaker 6 oh i don't really like that i don't like that Because what if I'm in the middle of a role reversal in the middle, I'm like, ew, don't, don't do that. Or I won't say ew.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I wish I wasn't do that. Okay, I think we have said that before.
I've said that to you. I think I've said that to you before.

Speaker 6 Because you're thinking of pain, though. Don't do that.
Oh, yeah. You know, you got to get out of the pain.
Okay, I'm thinking of like, not everybody's in pain. So, what I'm saying is that if I

Speaker 6 vice versa, you don't hurt me besides any head of fucking IUD. But if I said something

Speaker 6 like, don't do that, that wasn't hot.

Speaker 7 I didn't like that at all. I guess I would have to lead you into conversation.
Why?

Speaker 6 Yeah, why don't you just stop? What? Yeah, why? Why don't you like that?

Speaker 6 Maybe that's what needs to happen. How about everyone just, you know what? Hey, whoa, let's just, okay.

Speaker 7 So there needs to be some honest communication happening.

Speaker 6 And I think, listen, you don't always have to use words spoken. You can write it in a note.
You can text it. You can, everyone feels safer.
Just communicate in the safest way for you.

Speaker 6 But I also think, like, talk about your needs and wants and then come up with your own solutions

Speaker 6 or at least I feel

Speaker 6 a solution. Yeah.
Because I'm going to tell you right now, I think even man, woman, if I tell you, I don't like that, and then you go,

Speaker 6 what should I do? And I go, I don't know, but I don't like that.

Speaker 7 Yeah, that's not you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 6 Like, so figure out what your own solution could be, so that way you have options to like, well, so that way you have a very productive conversation about the issue.

Speaker 6 Could you imagine if I was like, I don't like to do that, and you're like, well, what should I do different? I'm like, I don't know, don't do that. I'd be like, oh,

Speaker 7 not help me at all.

Speaker 7 Like, so I'm not doing it right, but then you don't know what

Speaker 7 needs to happen.

Speaker 6 Well, it's, it's just, it's interesting that you bring that up because one of the things I kept seeing from our Instagram was the a frequency.

Speaker 6 I think when we say the relationship advice,

Speaker 6 a lot of it's sexual. A lot of it

Speaker 7 has to do with a huge part of a relationship.

Speaker 6 Which I think reiterates my point that I think it's one of the number one pinnacles thing. So it's like, if, I mean, what's the frequency?

Speaker 6 Some people are like, oh, I don't want it more than once or twice a week. Some people are like, I want it four times a week.
And it's like, that's also an important conversation.

Speaker 6 I also think there are therapists that are specifically

Speaker 6 for this issue. Yeah.
Sex therapists will probably open up all the doors you need to be opened in a safe space.

Speaker 7 Yeah, and then you have a mediator where you don't have to feel like you're hurting his feelings or something.

Speaker 6 And you talk to a therapist outside of that. This is my problem.
They go, okay, we can deliver that in a way that protects everybody. Right.
He's great. So, boom.

Speaker 7 Yeah, that's even something to look into.

Speaker 7 Yep. All right.
And so the last one that I thought was, I thought it was good. And obviously, this person is wanting to go about this the right way.

Speaker 7 I wasn't really, it's kind of a hard one for me, but

Speaker 7 they said, I'm wanting to adopt, but we are struggling with trying to find the most ethical options. In your opinion, do you think there's any ethical adoption? Hmm.

Speaker 6 I

Speaker 6 don't necessarily think there is an ethical way to adopt. that is completely, fully child-centered,

Speaker 6 unless all parties are trauma-informed people.

Speaker 6 That means the adopted parents, the birth parents,

Speaker 6 and whatever. Like they both need to be very trauma-informed about what adoptees experience.
My opinion, I don't think infant adoption is ethical. I just don't.

Speaker 6 I think foster care adoption is very ethical because you're going, you're already

Speaker 6 going to children in a crisis who need help. They need help.
They're already born. They're already here.
They're already suffering, really. The foster care system is full of children.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 You know, yearning for that. So I think the question is, what do you seek to get out of adoption? Do you seek to be a mom to a newborn baby and be able to raise the baby from a baby to an adult?

Speaker 7 Because

Speaker 6 if so, I don't think you should adopt because no baby is a blank slate.

Speaker 6 You don't just get a baby from separated from its mother and has maternal separation trauma and preverbal trauma and stuff like that. And it's a blank splint.
They're trying to make it your own.

Speaker 6 It's not going to happen. And that's an unfortunate thing.

Speaker 6 I think if you're struggling with infertility, that you should,

Speaker 6 you should go and heal or at least start the process of dissecting that infertility trauma way before you adopt, way before even thinking about it.

Speaker 6 And if it comes to the point where you do want to adopt, I highly suggest the next step is through foster care. I don't think private infant adoption is ethical in any way that I can find out there.

Speaker 7 So, yesterday I was speaking on a live with a few adoptees that we talked to. I was on live with them.
And then also this birth mom on there, or not this birth mom, this adoptive mom that's on there.

Speaker 7 And her herself, she said, you know, she adopted her son.

Speaker 7 It was through like foster care stuff. But she even said, in turn, if she could go back, she would even do things differently.
And she said, I would do like a legal permanent guardianship.

Speaker 7 She said, because then his birth certificate would have stayed the same a lot of his rights would have stayed the same but i still would be considered like a parent to be able to make all the decisions for him but um and i was like wow that was very shocking to me and i was like i'm very proud of you for saying that because even she you know and she is a very open adoption um and so yeah i know what you're talking about she she actually said that um that she was not trauma-informed when she first adopted and that she learned.

Speaker 6 So I had to really learn as an adoptive mom. I had to break down my own stereotypes that I built in my head.
And she's like, I used to justify some of the decisions I made.

Speaker 6 I used to justify my desire to be a mom

Speaker 6 by minimizing or pretty much avoiding the fact that it was trauma-based. Yeah.

Speaker 6 You don't

Speaker 6 have adoption without trauma.

Speaker 7 Right. And so I thought it was interesting, this person that wrote, she's like, she's not finding any ethical options.
And it's like, because there's not.

Speaker 6 No. There's not any ethical options.
That's why when we're talking about infant adoption, we're talking about adoption is not necessary.

Speaker 6 Kinship adoption, aunts, uncles, somewhere, grandma, filial, anything. That's the first option, I think.

Speaker 6 If a birth mom is in a situation where it's a crisis and she can't do this, and it's not.

Speaker 7 First option should be like resources. Well, of course.

Speaker 6 No, no, no, right.

Speaker 7 Second option, yeah, we would be like kinship adoption.

Speaker 6 Yeah, kinship adoption and guardianship. I even don't like the word using the word adoption.
Like guardianship is a really

Speaker 6 it's the same thing.

Speaker 6 So I think, I think all prospective adoptive parents ask yourself what is my intention for doing this is it to help children right or is it just to become a parent become a parent because your infertility trauma does not make you entitled to anyone else's baby

Speaker 6 and you can you can't justify that desire by saying i'm saving the kid i'm helping you that's true so don't ever say don't ever say it you're not no

Speaker 6 That's disturbing. Adoptees don't like that.

Speaker 7 And then it also just reiterates what adoptees think. Like, oh, they saved me and I need to be grateful.

Speaker 6 I shouldn't want to find my birth family.

Speaker 6 I shouldn't be having these issues, identity crisis that I'm having because I should be grateful when I'm taking care of. And that's just not something you do.

Speaker 6 So I think any prospective adoptive parents read the primal wound, talk to a therapist about your infertility trauma or what, or why you can't have it.

Speaker 7 Or the process of it. Yeah.

Speaker 7 Got to be very painful. Yes.

Speaker 6 I know that there are some people who they just grow up and go, I don't want to have my own natural kids. I just want to adopt.
Okay. If you want to do that, foster care.
Right.

Speaker 6 Help the children who really need it and are already born.

Speaker 7 Or be like a very great foster parent to help their biological family get on their feet and do be parents in class.

Speaker 6 Foster care is designed for reunification with the biological family. And that's why.

Speaker 7 Because we know that that's best.

Speaker 6 We know it's best. There's data out there.
So just don't go into this blindly and also don't go into it selfishly. I know you want to be a parent.
I understand that.

Speaker 6 And I think your trauma about not being able to be one is valid and it's real. However, that is your responsibility to figure out.

Speaker 6 And it is not the responsibility of an innocent child to fulfill that hole or that.

Speaker 7 You had no choice.

Speaker 6 You had no choice

Speaker 6 to rob them of their biological identity, et cetera, et cetera, to fill this void that you have because you can't have your own children. That's not fair.
That's not child-centered.

Speaker 6 If you adopt, it needs to be child-centered, period, all the way around.

Speaker 7 Beautiful. I think so too.
Yeah, because my first thought to her question, I was like, well, permanent legal guardianship. Yes.

Speaker 7 That's the only way that I see it being ethical because then that gives the birth parent some rights too and some protection. And also the child.

Speaker 6 It's a child. And you still have guardianship.
You still can make all the legal decisions.

Speaker 7 Absolutely.

Speaker 6 It's primary custodial.

Speaker 7 I mean, you can forever.

Speaker 6 There's no difference. Yeah.
Adoption is literally.

Speaker 6 Just strip them of everything. It's a legal transfer.
Yeah. That's all it is.
Like, it's literally, there's nothing else to it. So.

Speaker 7 So that was my thing that came to my mind.

Speaker 7 But all right, guys. Well, thank you so much for joining us and listening to this episode.
Make sure you like and follow everywhere that you can listen to podcasts.

Speaker 7 And we just, again, appreciate all the love and the support that we've received. And it's been fun.
We love it.

Speaker 6 So, subscribe, like, share, comment, whatever you need.

Speaker 7 Give us all the love.

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Speaker 6 We need it. All right.

Speaker 7 We'll talk to you guys next week. Have a good one.
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