#472 - 47 Kisses, #NoPowerUps and The More Money than Sense Boys

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Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes.

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Hello, listeners. Producer Dave, John, and I are broadcasting under a unique pressure.

Because of an extracurricular activity we can't mention, the three of us are spending a lot of time in a van, and it has brought our relationship and a sharp focus.

John, of course, is an old hand at touring, turning up at venues seven hours early, telling our tour manager Giles that he has chosen a bad route and is naive for following Google Maps, and walking into theatres with such steely-eyed focus that venue managers then take me to one side to ask if he's alright.

I am conducting rituals

that have successfully seen me through 20 years of live performance. I make sure I eat two hours before the gig.

I do 15 push-ups in the dressing room in case American fitness influencer bodied by markers at any of the shows. And at showtime, I get Giles to remind me that these gigs are in English and not Welsh.

But then, of course, we get to Dave.

The unknown quantity in a live context. His first words on seeing the tour van were, that's alright, but we're the birds.
But it's the company he keeps that is most distressing.

On the first night in Norwich, we didn't have the dressing room to ourselves. I walked in, and Dave's mate was already there.
All right, my name's Negsy. I'm Deggsy's dad, I think.
Hopefully.

Anyway, Skeggsy's mate, you know him. Told Dave that I'm doing security on your tour.

Dave looked a bit nervous. Don't mind them, said Neggsy, pointing at the 21 Staffordshire Bull Terriers that were in the dressing room.

They're good dogs, they'll eh, but I think they've eaten you merch.

Right, I said, we don't really need security on the tour, because we're comedians largely playing Edwarding in theatres with an early start time to the gig so that John could get up to do CrossFit and how I can do the school run.

Are you mad? said Negzi. A lot of timber magnates in the northwest blame Dave's dad for introducing a woodworm epidemic in the 90s.

But Dave's dad is an honourable man, I said. Oh, he is, yeah, said Negsi.
But Dave was hanging around with such bad lads in She Daleen, people just assume he's from a bad family.

I can assure you that's not the case, I said. Negzi didn't look convinced.
Where are you next, anyway? Manchester, I replied. Negsi raised an eyebrow.
We will have security, please, I replied.

It's mad the amount of security we've got on this show, all provided by Negsi and his mates. They're good guys.
They're all tooled up. They're using screwdrivers.

Yeah,

it's created quite a bad vibe on the tour, actually.

But I do feel safe. Unless they turn.

That's the thing. That's the thing I'm scared of.

Once you get to know them. Yeah.
And they're your old mates, aren't they? Megsy, Skegsy. Megsy, of course, he's always nutmegging people.
Oh, my God, there's Megsy Meh.

The dogs are just saying hello, even if they do sometimes say hello to your throat quite a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And your groin. But, you know, it's the cut and thrust of the live environment.

And just to remind you all, we are coming remotely due to strike action.

Fingers crossed, the alarm sound, which derailed our previous two recordings,

is now at an end. And that's not going to come back on because I don't think Dave could handle another visit from the alarm repair specialist.
No, that was a stressful few moments.

But it gave a lot of texture to the experience, Dave.

It's mad.

That has never gone off and it went off the moment I've done my first remote podcast record in a year i think um but if you want to know how that was resolved and of course head to the bureau de chans of the mind on only on bbc sounds that is lovely but joe but dave loves the tour van don't you makes you feel like a rock and all star well hannah keeps i've not done it actually i need to hannah keeps asking me for a videoed tour of the of the bus

i don't know what she thinks we're traveling around in like you're in pool jam

yeah i think she's like i can send you a i can send you a photo i've got of you and Ellis in it, Dave, if you like. Oh, that's nice.
I think she wants

a bit of a proper tour because she wants to get a camper van for Latitude next year. So she's trying to get, like, you know, get ahead, get ahead with info and intel.

But this isn't quite the same as a camper van, so I think she might be a little bit disappointed. Would you hire the camper van? Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. You're not buying a,

it's not going to become your car for the school run, a big camper van. No, I don't, I'd no thank you.
Oh, Johnson. Oh, yeah, that's nice, isn't it? Johnson.

Well, also, Dave, we can use that for the socials because we're going to play out some audio footage from our travels, aren't we? Yes, well, very soon on this episode, of course.

We could even do it now if you wanted to, Dave, seeing as we're talking about it.

Wow. Okay, so do you want to set the scene, John? Well, yes, Ellis and I are driving round the country with Dave for no reason whatsoever and for a variety of reasons.

Ellis wanted to visit a Wild Fowl and Wetlands Trust near Cardiff.

Just on... Where was it? Where's the wildfowl and wetlands trust near Cardiff? You wanted to see a rare goose? Yeah,

there's a rare goose in Pernath. So it's only

10 minutes away from town. So we hired someone to drive us.
We hired a van so we could discuss the geese.

Cost about 700 quid a day to go goose spotting. Yeah, yeah.
But you only live once. I'm just checking that is where we're going on this one.

Anyway, we're going to lots of places for a variety of reasons. Basically, Ellis and I pitched so many travelogues to various channels over the years that we thought we'd just combine them all in one.

Um,

so it's Ellis and John's Classic Pub Historical Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust family visiting

lottery fund trip on a bike

on a bike in a van. And what are we calling it? Ellis and John's Road to Nowhere:

A Robins alone.

A Robins Untethered.

A Robins Freed.

Yes, I am in the tour van. It's 9am.

Ellis has opted for a lie-in,

so he's getting the train. Dave has got up early to attend to family business.
So it's just me and my thoughts and Giles.

And it's a bit like, it's quite reminiscent of

John's Irish Odyssey and John's Scottish Odyssey.

But I'm not crying as much, which is a bonus. I mean, I'm not crying at all.
I'm having a great time. Just had a meal-deal breakfast.

I'm going to bring in Giles at this juncture because, Giles, amongst some UK comedians on various WhatsApp groups,

I am receiving a lot of abuse for my choice of hotel.

Because

some people feel because of the size of the venues we're playing we should splash out and live a little. There's an argument for that.

There's also an argument against it which is you're only sleeping there.

Well this this I actually on the WhatsApp group did some maths. We arrived at 1032.

I was asleep by 11.24. That's 52 minutes.
I then woke up at 2am having had a nightmare about reversing down the M32.

I was awake for another nine minutes. I then got up at 7.30.
We were at the door by 8.

It doesn't matter if we mention names because we've stayed in all of them and they're all the same. So we stayed in the hotels that are all the same.

We've travelled, we've lodged, we've premiered, we've inned, we've holidayed and we've expressed.

But how much are we talking for a night in one of those rooms? We're paying about 70 or 80 quid. 70 or 80 quid.
So for my waking hours, that's a pound a minute.

And if we were in some of the brands that Nish Kumar has suggested, James Acastra has suggested, Lord Edward Gamble has suggested, we'd be looking at four quid a minute, Giles.

Are they the ones that I refer to as the more money than sense boys? Yeah, the more money than sense boys. That's correct.
Whereas I'm more sense than, well, more sense than anything.

Ellis doesn't get cc'd in on the emails and dave's just happy and i got in the room last night wireless charging point by the bed usb port by the bed complimentary nespresso

complimentary green and blacks coffee rain effect shower executive seating local art it was a delight So if you're listening to the, I know Agassin doesn't listen.

I know Nish doesn't listen, but I know Ed listens. Ed, you're one of of the more money than Sense Boys.
And that's according to Giles. And now I've got a whole tour van to myself.

Unfortunately, I will hold my hands up. The hotel we were staying in was undergoing some improvements, so there was no breakfast available.
But I like brands that innovate.

I like brands that don't rest on their laurels. I like brands that say the kitchen is good, but could it be better?

Could it be better for Britain? Could it be better for the FTSE?

Could it be better for soft power both home and abroad?

So

I do regret not taking a banana from the tray at reception, but I've had an eldeal breakfast. On our way to Manchester, me, Jilo, my crosswords, I've whirdled in three.
It's a good day.

I've bounced back.

So here we are,

the morning after the night before, in the balance bus.

I went back to my hotel after the show.

Ellis and Dave took a different route. They turned left.
Yeah.

Where did you turn left to, Ellis? To Dancing with Dave, the venue of which I can't remember. I just know it was...

There was a great bit when we left the Apollo and you could see all these people were walking to where Dancing with Dave was. Like Wembley Way.
Like Wembley Way. Dave Way with Dancing with Dave flags.

It was. People talking about the magic of Dancing with Dave.
Yeah, it was. It's not commercial, is it? No.

But

we got a cab over, and there were hundreds of people all walking on Dave Way towards Dancing with Dave.

And that was really exciting. But there was free beer.

and I can never sleep after the show, so I thought, well, I'll just drink beer and then I'll fall asleep naturally.

And I got really excited because when I played certain songs I like, everyone sang along, and that was a very positive experience.

But then I just remember waking up, and it was ten past three in the morning, and all the lights were on, and I was still in my clothes with my shoes on.

So, uh,

you know, I wouldn't say I went to bed, I I wouldn't say sleep hygiene was the best.

And then I was staying in a hotel very near the venue, and there were lots of people who'd been at Dancing with Dave there as well.

And they were all like, oh my god, are you doing another one in York? And I was like, yeah.

But that doesn't detract from the fact that this evening is going to be an extremely professional, excellent show that I'm looking forward to.

Yeah, it is. And

we're two minutes into the recording now, and Ellis has just taken his hands hands off his head.

He's now just rubbing his eyes, pinching the middle of his nose,

like stressed CEOs do. Yeah.
But I've got nothing to be stressed about. No.

No, you're not. This is

the dream. This is the dream.

It is the dream.

We've got Giles, who's promised to tell me as soon as he finds out, he's going to find out as soon as he can, what Danny Baker thinks of the band can, because I don't know, and I would like to know.

We're in a Torbus full of Diet Coke.

And Monster Munch. And Monster Munch.
John looks extremely chipper, and we're on the way to York. Well, I want to.
There's been a discussion going on a WhatsApp group about hotel controversy

because I

like,

well,

it's not miserliness as such, but

there is a broader point about fantasy and reality that I think is valid. Right.

Giles has referred to some other comedic voices as the more money than sense boys in a previous recording that you weren't here for.

Here's my fantasy versus reality observation. If I go to a premiere in, a travel lodge, a holiday in Express,

I know what I am going to get and I get it. A trifecta of value.
Yeah, they're always the same. When you venture into the bespoke hotel,

which I stayed in last night, you needed to be near the station. Because anything is possible when you're in a bespoke hotel,

any errors really bug you in a way that anything wouldn't bug you in, say, a Premier Inn or a Travel Lodge. Yeah, yeah.

But also, they tend not to happen in a Premier Inn or a Travelodge because it's 100 rooms exactly the same, done the same every day. So, for example.

In the hotel I stayed in, they have an instant hot tap, which I don't need because there's a lot of people. There's cups of tea and stuff.
Yeah, right. There's a kettle next to it.

So that's a way of... It's ideal if you want to wash your hands in scalding water.
Exactly.

So if you are the sort of person that goes, oh that's nice, I've spent an extra 200 quid, so I've got an instant hot tap. Yeah.

A I don't need it. B they'd had to cut out the fixture in the little sort of kitchenette.
Yeah. So they just got a like a band saw and cut a semicircle out of the wood, but they hadn't painted it.

Right, okay. So it looks like a bodge job.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm now looking at a bodge looking.
It's like an ex-resident at the hotel thought, you know what, I'm going to do this. Exactly, yeah.

So I'm now looking at a bodge job in a room that's cost 200 quid. Yeah.
I would never be looking at that in a Premier Inn.

Yes, that is true. When I'm spending 200 quid, I suddenly become hyacinth bouquet.

I am, I deserve better than this. So I just think sod it.

And

there was more tea and coffee in the Premier Inn than there was in the Blimin fancy barbs when I've stayed in fancy hotels the breakfast is much nicer there was no breakfast in this hotel that's madness you had to go to a restaurant next door and pay that's madness

and

life

is

reality and I I like reality fantasy always disappoints when it meets reality so why not pay for disappointment you know

as opposed to paying for a shelter fulfillment to the disappointment, you know. Yeah, totally.

It is funny, though, fantasy vs. Reality.

The two of us have been very, very lucky in that we've performed in some really iconic venues. And I do regard myself and the two of us as very lucky.

So we've done the Shepherd's Bush Empire, where David Bowie and Led Zeppelin played in the Rolling Stones. And we've done the Hammersmith Apollo.
We're doing the Hammersmith Apollo in two weeks' time.

Queen played there. You know, Queen played in the Manchester Apollo.
The Beatles Apollo. Yes, they did.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And especially the old theatres, which are the ones I prefer, the really old theatre, like the Matcham-style Edwardian theatres, the dressing rooms are hilariously basic.
Yes.

So then you turn up this venue where Oasis have been, or where Ragerhead have been, or the Beatles, or the Stones or the Who, and there's like a little kettle.

got a and you're like all right last night we were at the at a venue that Dave saw Wasis play

on his 17th birthday when they were the biggest band in the world and we had our Thai takeaway and we were all sitting on the floor because it was the proper table

you're like is this what Liam and Noah did yeah it's quite an interesting glimpse behind the cloth because when I was at those gigs as a teenager and I saw races on that tour I assumed that it was incredibly lavish backstage and it's probably Liam Gallagher looking for a socket so he could charge his full

so we're off to York to England's most beautiful city in my opinion to check out

the

chemical levels in there streams and brooks. Yes.
Because we're doing some research for the waterways agency. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, but Dave's not with us, he's making his own way.

Uh, to he's actually getting there on a barge because he's making a doc U-Soap for Five Star. Yeah,

about Dave living on a barge with two former offenders,

seeing if they're rehabilitated and can get from Birmingham to York without touching a pavement.

Bye-bye, goodbye,

A glimpse behind the magician's cloth there and what a magician. And what a cloth.

And what a trick he's playing on us.

And if that was and if that was a TV show, I think you would actually be very appropriate for BBC One, BBC Two, ITV, Channel 4, Channel 5, and all of Sky. Yeah, I think so.
And all digital channels.

Yes.

Yeah, food for thought for any commissioners up there

again.

But, you know, to be honest, we've shown them about 50 recipes for different meals that we want to make them, and they've all said they're full.

They all said they're too full to ever eat again.

Yeah.

Then you realize they're eating with Jack Whiteel and his dad. You're like, oh, okay.

Yeah.

Okay, I think it's that part of the show where we find out the sort of week John has had in John Wynn's again.

John wins again, oh, John wins again.

John wins again, John wins again, wins again,

wins again.

Yes, it's another mixed week, I've got to say, Dave, so make sure sure you've got your you've got your calculator out.

Okay.

He's got it there. Well, we start with a boggle personal best.
Oh. Yeah.

In fact, too, I beat my record and then I beat it again. So we now have a new highest scoring game for Johnny JR John Robbins.

3,306 points.

No power-ups! Hashtag no power-ups. I don't use power-ups.
It was only in a game against Jossie? No, that was actually in a game against another boggle foe who is

pushing me to my limits. Wow.

Yeah. Your Moriarty.

My boggle Moriarty, yes. Goodness me.
Do I know this person? No, you don't. And

it's just, it's an online person. Oh, it's a pal you met on the boggle forums.
Yeah, it's a boggle pal, and I can't compete.

Well, okay. Let's just put this in context.
I'm still winning overall,

but they've gone from a three to one loss ratio to a two to one loss ratio to an above two to one loss ratio, and I am feeling stretched. Wow.
So they're improving all the time.

Yes, I'm struggling to compete with Gen Z fingers.

Oh, God.

A youngster on the boggle scene.

Luckily, the chat in Boggle is very limited. It's pre-selected phrases like great

wow

oh well done. I'm not I hate this and I am completely motivated by spite.

Yeah yeah

good.

Watched a Thames Valley League cricket mid-table showdown. Amisham versus Reading and Amersham battered Reading.
Oh, did they? That's good.

Yeah, it's nice to watch village cricket, even though I think it's a step up from village cricket. Actually, the standard was quite high.
You'd think that Reading would beat Amersham. They've got

more results.

To think again. Bigger player pool.

Yeah. I suppose the Amersham players are playing for the badge, aren't they?

Well,

exactly. It was like Grimsby Man United.
Yeah, yeah. They're all just kissing the badge before every offer.

What kind of crowd is an Amersham Reading cricket match getting? Aside from relatives of the players yeah yeah

me

ah and why were you there and the odd dog walker who pauses in the line of the batsman's sight

I find

that level of cricket such a soothing thing to walk past

I used to like doing gigs in Edinburgh in the summer in the meadows when I had to walk through the meadows to get to my uh show and I often would be walking past games of cricket in the meadows and that used to put a real spring on my step.

I loved it.

Yes.

New distance PB running, but I can't remember whether I've mentioned that already.

I mean, there was a PB in the last John Wins again.

Well, this is more PB than that. It's Ber than that P.
Well, let me just have a little look at previous JWIIAs.

Nope, JWAs.

I wrote that your oh,

your last one was a distance PB of 18.1 K.

Up that to 21.1. Whoa.

Yeah, half marathon. I've never done that far in my life.

Half marathon. That's fantastic.

I'm really impressed with that. Absolutely destroyed.

What was it again? Give us the K again.

21.1, Dave. Or whatever half marathon is.
I think it's 21.1. Fair play to John.
22.1? Maybe it's 22.1, Dave. It's too late.
It's sharpied into the annals of history now. It's half mara.

How was the recovery? Yeah, I felt normal the next day-ish. Oh, well done.

But I just couldn't really. I could not have gone a step further.
Yeah.

I think you should be really proud of that. Thank you.

There is no...

There's no agenda for me there. I just think that's genuinely very impressive.
Well done. Yes.

I went for a lovely big Chinese meal and then nearly esed myself in Regent's Park.

Yes. Ah, wow.
Yes, you did text me about this.

Mid-S.

Hold on, is this a win or a loss?

Well, this is the problem, Dave, because

life is a rich tapestry. But I've got to stop ordering whatever the meal is, where it's basically a whole fish in chili oil with a hundred chilies in it.

Because I keep ordering it. And I went for a lovely walk with my fellow diner in Regent's Park

and

it was late in the day

and we were seconds from apocalypse.

It was it was so

I haven't experienced that since I was drinking.

It was I was almost I was almost nostalgic for drinking. So I was like, God, he used to get this quite a lot.

But

And

how did the event pan out?

For.

Well,

how do you expect me to ask?

Where did you go to the toilet? Well, there are public toilets. Oh, in Regents Park, okay.
And they're clean.

No, it was.

I'll just be honest with you. The first cubicle, there was no paper.
The second one was occupied, so I had to go in the disabled one. Oh, okay.

needs there was no other there was no other choice well i was in that headspace of thinking what do i say if someone with a disability is like waiting outside or is banging on the door so i came up with

well i i was just

what i i was going to ask myself in regions like that about a bit chinese

i've i would have showed them a photo of the meal yeah

because i did take a photo of it they would have said you brought that upon yourself absolutely i'm hoisted by my own petard there. So what I've done there in terms of columns

is one in each, I think, Dave. It is.
But then it's a good thing to not S yourself. It's a good thing to see your friend.
And it's a good thing to have a nice Chinese.

I think it's 2-1 in the wins to losses column, Dave. Okay.
Oh, how am I doing this? So I've already done an arrow from had a Chinese to nearly Esther's pants.

So there's an arrow that goes from the bottom of the win column to the top of the loss column because it's your first loss of the day.

So I don't now know how I go back to the win column and now make it clear that you're two wins and a loss. So, I had a lovely meal with a friend.

I thought I was going to S myself, which is bad, but I didn't S myself, which is good.

Okay, there's there has to be a loss in there because you never want to introduce Peril to the toilet in that way. I think I think that means your day's gone wrong.
Yeah, and it's a royal park.

You could probably be arrested for treason. Yeah, yeah.

My clematis has flowered.

Oh, congrats. Sounds like my

favorite. No,

it's been three years

waiting for the clematis or clematis, if you're listening to garden as well, to flower. And I'm looking at them now.
Two little white flowers knocking around the old clematis. Oh, but that's good.

And was it worth it? Three-year wait?

No, no, it wasn't worth it. No, I was going to say, that's the

I should have just bought some flowers. Yeah, that's the waiting list to be in the audience that have I got news for you, from what I remember, you know.

Clematis has

flowered. What was the film where

I feel like it must have been something like Dumb and Dumber,

where they were waiting for this this plant to flower for like half the film, and then someone does something mad and everyone turns away because they

flew into the sky or something off a rocket, and then they missed this flower and then it went back into it shriveled back into itself and everyone had missed it it was the first time it had flowered in like 45 years or something i think that's one of your own ideas steve it's not that was a famous film that's dave where's my car

it is something like dude where's my car it's that sort of silly film i think anyway carry on i'll try and i'll see if i can find it's not like naked gun or something like that is it no but i can really imagine it like this beautiful flower and everyone's looking the other way because this guy's cocked up around the corner and everyone's been distracted and they look back and this flower is just like this withered mess that it was.

Oh, yeah. Comedically, the joke works.
Yeah. I don't mind it.
Yeah. I don't mind it at all.

12 hours before the deadline for my book, I panicked and reordered it and then handed it in and then was panicked for a day.

Ah, now then. That was a bad day.
Also, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter, but it was a bad day. But it was a good day.
Is it one all? It might be one all.

I would, I It's definitely a loss because you got stressed, but I think it's actually 2-1 because it's such an enormous achievement to write a book.

There are millions of people up there who say things like, I've definitely got a book in me, and then they never do anything about it.

So, what? Book finished?

Yeah, I suppose that's a positive. That's a big positive.
Oh, yeah.

What am I going to worry about now, though?

Oh, you'll find something. Yeah, that's a good point.

Dave, this next one, you have to decide whether it's a good or a bad thing.

You are an owner of a vinyl copy of Parachutes by Coldplay. You know what it's like to feel, you know, the full emotional spectrum.
And that is what it offers me.

I've discovered one of the saddest songs I've ever heard. Is that a good or a bad thing? Because I love it, but it's very, very sad.
But does it make you sad?

Yes.

If you were sad about something else, could you listen to it?

I have done in that state, and it makes it worse.

But it's also very pleasant to know someone is experiencing the same melancholy as you. And do you think it's artistically valid as a song? I think it is a superb song.

It's called I Never Dream About Trains by Casma Coombs.

Well, then, I think it's a positive that you have it in your life, because I've got sad songs I love, but if I was feeling sad, I just wouldn't play them.

Sometimes I feel very sad, and I think, what can you do to make it feel better? And I realise I am listening to that song.

So I turn it off. Also, there are some tunes that are like in case of emergency brick glass to make me feel positive.
Yes, We Are Not Alone by Frank Zappa.

Yeah, so I was very nervous about the Cardiff gig. I listened to

Camera Bskura.

Lloyd, I'm Ready to Be Heartbroken. And it really put a spring in my step.
And it completely changed my sort of of vibe and it completely changed what's your favourite sad songs both of you

I mean I've got an album called sad lads on my spotify which is my little curation I love it just answer to your question I had a I had a playlist called sad lads did you where sadlads.com

I didn't put minds.gov.uk this is

in answer to your question I think if I revel and enjoy listening to sad music so I think it's a I think think that's a win.

If you've discovered the most beautiful/slash sad song that you've ever encountered, but you enjoy listening to, I think that's a win, isn't it? It's just great music. I think it's a win.

Yeah.

I think

maybe Pink Moon by

the album by Nick Drake because of the context of its release.

There's a song by an amazing Welsh band I love called Dat Blagi, Dominion De Da,

which

is

so. it is, it is sad, but

I found it quite uplifting as well because I think it's one of his creative high points. But yeah, I'd probably say Nick Drake.

Although now it's good, that question is going to bother me for a day whilst I remember as I remember sander songs I like.

But yeah, good cue. I think mine's probably Everything's Not Lost on the end of the Parachute's Coldplay album, actually.

Okay. No, it's not.
It's a lovely song. The Mourners of St.
Paul's was a track by a singer-songwriter in the early noughties by someone called Liam Frost in Manchester.

And I bet quite a few of our listeners do remember Liam Frost because he was he was kind of on the cusp of being huge and for whatever reason still really built a very cult following.

But the Mourners of St. Paul's is related to his dad's death, I think.
And it's very sad and also very beautiful. So I'd recommend it.

Okay, well, there's some good recommendations you get. Finally, I Hex Dumbbells arrived, which I ordered online.

Unfortunately, I ordered the weights that I used to use when I went more regularly to the gym. When they arrived, I thought there'd been an error because they were so heavy.

Turns out, I've just lost a lot of muscle mass. So, what, dumbbells too heavy in the loss column?

Yes, I think it is in the loss column there. But it's a kind of purchase for the future.

Because your strength will come back and then you've got the right dumbbells. It's like buying a car before you've passed your test.
Yeah, yeah, but people do that. Which you have to do.

And that's regarded as a... You know, that's regarded as a positive, I think.

No, I think it's a negative because I am quite depressed about the loss of muscle mass, but we can't be all things to all people. There we go, Dave.
What's my score this week? What's the song called?

I never dream about trains. Is that what it's about?

It's a very clever song. Robin actually wrote a sub stack about it.
So he's...

He's telling you that he doesn't dream about trains and he's listing all the other things he doesn't dream about. And one of them is this

um

holiday or occasion with a woman and he goes into such detail about it and he keeps saying i never dream about this and but it's obvious by what he's saying that he dreams about it all the time so it's very very moving ah

um 7-3 to you john oh to me

the world oh well that's that's put a spring in my step yeah

well done because we flipped some of the losses, didn't we? Yeah.

Good stuff. Lovely lesson for life.
John wins again.

Oh, John wins again.

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4.
History's toughest heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head.
Tough enough for you.

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I'm going to have a big bath.

Good, you deserve it.

Have a nice bath.

Have a bath.

Are you going to get some meaty in there?

Some meat. Some meat.
Some meaty, not some meat.

Yeah, I'm going to sous vide.

I'm just going to slow cook some pork

in the old in the bath, which you could do. Yeah, no, I'm not suggesting you get into a

bath, some pork chops.

I'm suggesting you put some meaty bubble bath in the bath.

You know, to create some. I don't have any meaty bubble bath, but I will whack whatever shower gel I've got in there.

And then it'll be too hot, and I'll get straight out and it'll be a complete waste of everyone's time. Okay, there we go again.

What an attitude.

What a mentality.

Always happens. I think, oh, wouldn't it be nice to have a lovely bath? You can relax in the bath and read for half an hour.
And I get in. I think this is too hot.
So I get out and go to bed.

Is John a mentality monster? In a way, yeah. He does have a monstrous mentality.

he's he's the negative in literally everything

i mean i i i actually do see where you're coming from there john i i romanticize a bath put some

cold in

put some cold in it's lying there thinking

to tip over which no one does put some cold in and solve the problem but i do reckon i mean reading in a bath i don't think ever works Izzy does it all the time, and her books are an absolute mess.

Yeah.

But Izzy does do a lot of reading in the bath. Bit of music.

I like podcasts in the bath.

But I find, you know, broad gender brushstroke here, but women can spend so long in a bath. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I get paid. It's got to be 15 minutes.

Oh, I wouldn't even, I would five minutes if I'm lucky. Five minutes?

That is a waste of time, John.

People sliding off me. I've been slow with my head for that long.

Five minutes? That's worse than Paddling Poolgate, John. You've got to at least get 15 minutes out of it.
15 minutes of your thoughts and your bathroom tiles.

Yeah, you stick a podcast on and stick some tunes on. That's what I do.

I could put a podcast on, actually. Yeah.

I listened to my favourite. I listened to Three Bean Saladin.
Started again.

Yeah.

Oh, right. Yeah.

Well, there's that. There's that as well, which is good because, you know, children are wonderful.
Is it 704 now, John? By any chance. You never know.
I never know.

This is the thing with not being a parent. You just only find out when the holidays are because either the train station's rammed at like two in the afternoon

or at half past three, the gay sound of childhood joy drifts across the landscape. Yeah.

And you only find out when half term is, is if you're trying to book a holiday and it's three times more expensive. Yeah, yeah, there is that.

So good luck to all of them. Why have I just had a missed call?

What's that number? Oh, shivnarine Chandapal.

I think that's the

I think that's the chemist.

That's okay.

That's all right. Do you want to ring the chemist? Well, I missed it.
You know any idea how hard it is to get these people on the phone? And they say they call and they don't. Oh, they do.

Oh.

He's Googled the number, I imagine. I think it might be Hillary's Blinds.

It's either that or someone pretending to be Amazon.

That's what Google tells me. Right.
So. Okay, so that's okay.
That's okay. Good.
Should we

play

a fun-made-up game? Oh, yes, please. Oh, yes, please.
Okay, we're gonna...

Oh, we're definitely gonna repeat last week's jingle because we've only played it the once, so it deserves a few more outings.

This jingle is from Becca and Tom, and it's their reversioning of an Avril Levine song. Here we go.

of games.

Even stress-uppressed, or psycho-sexually repressed. They're always ready to play.
Keep it light. Alice gets excuses in early.
When John's broke wrong, he can't become surly.

Take Wismas and adjudicate. And the youngest person is on the hottest station.

Made of games, made of games.

Made of games, made up games.

How many food bottles were born and come on?

What's the market value of a nice full of farthings?

Made-up games, made-up

games.

What a tune. What a tune.
So good. So good.
I mean, that could be on top of the pops, Dave. Yeah, if some of the pops are still on.
Yes.

It's great. Thank you, Becca.
Thank you, Tom. Every week we do play a made-up game, and it's sent in by listeners.
If you've got a made-up game, of course, it's ellisandjohn at bbc.co.uk on email.

Scores on the doors. Ellis James is on a roll.
Your victory in last week's game, How Low Can You Go, bought the scores to Juice, our first ever Juice.

in the third game of the second set. John is leading two loving games and one loving set, but, you know, you're only a couple of wins here away from getting a game back, Al.

I also, I am doing quite well in the made-up game we play on the tour, but those don't account for the official. They don't count towards the official stats, they do.
No, they don't. Absolutely not.

All right, then, so this week's game comes in from Taran in Baseldon.

Ahoy there, my hearty little shipmates. A few weeks ago, you read out an email from someone who had made a searchable database of all your previous endeavors.

My first thought on hearing this was, they have to play a game around that. This was

Trevor, I think, sent in a website where you can search any word, anything that we've said, and it'll give you an answer immediately in terms of how many times that word has been said.

It's incredible.

So I'm sending in a game based on that very database to test your knowledge of yourselves and the various excellent shows you've made over the past 10 years plus.

It's called, We've Said Todgers How Many Times?

Instead of simply asking you to guess how many times a certain word has been said though Dave will offer up a number all you need to do is choose a word that you think has been said on all of your shows that's XFM Radio X five live slash BBC sounds that many times So it's we've kind of flipped it on its head a bit to make it a little bit more interesting has Taron the closest person to Dave's number wins the point I do have a word in mind so there is one word that will have been said this number of times.

What you'll get, what your job is here. I mean, hey, if you get that word bang on, fair play, you still get the 10 bonus points off.
That's not going to happen, Dave. That will not happen.
But...

You're asking us to pick the average vocabulary of a human being. Well, the highest ever recorded vocabulary is Winston Churchill, which is about 20,000 words.
Really?

Let's say we're half a Churchill. We're asking us to pick one of 10,000 words.
Well, I'm not, though, am I?

Because I think it's fair to say I'm going to be choosing words that are, I don't think this is a spoiler or in any way helping you with the game, but that are quite synonymous with the show.

So

email, for instance, you're not going to get me saying and as a word and trying to find the number of times we've said.

I'll be quite curious to hear that. Well, we'll get to that.

If you guessed the correct number, bang on, 10 bonus points. But like you say, tricky.
Tricky to get the full 10.

So all searches were accurate up to the time of recording, which is Monday, the 8th of September, 2025. The website is IwantListen, this rubbish.com, which I love.
Thank you, Trevor.

I think Trevor works in IT, so he's just done this as a bit of a side hustle because he was bored one afternoon, which is great.

Oh, Trevor and Jack. Sorry, I wasn't giving Jack his dues there.
When people in IT do side hustles, they're so much more useful than mine. Yeah.

My side hustle is playing boggle. Yeah.
Well, no. Your side hustle.

Yeah. Well, that's not a hustle.
I always assumed side hustle was

another way of earning money. So I think your Cytus was cameo.

Yeah. Fair enough.
Yeah, great. Thanks for that, Dave.

So, yeah, a bit of context here. Just so you can get your eye in, I'm going to give you a few words, which obviously we then can't use in the game.

But I think it's important because otherwise you are shooting in the dark a bit here.

So here are some words and how many times they've been said on the show. We'll give away Todgers because it's in the title of the show.

Todgers, it's inclusive of the singular.

How many times do you reckon? Let's get a quick guess for fun on the cards. How many times do you reckon we've said Todgers?

86.

100. 64.
Okay.

Zappa has been said 491 times. I'd thought it would be more than that.
Good.

Massive

has been said 1,530 times.

Massive it is. Massive it is.
And, you know, that is a phrase that we've said a lot, and there'll have been many other ways we would have said that as well when just describing big things.

And then, Ellis, you were curious about and?

This website's mad that it's been able to figure this out, but it's incredible. And has been said

174,565 times.

Wow.

Okay.

So have fun with the game.

Thank you, Trevor. Thank you, Jack.
And obviously thank you, Taron, for thinking that there was a made-up game in it.

So

round one.

All you've got to do here is think of every word that you've ever said on the podcast. Simple as that.

Round one, the number

that I'm offering up is 665 times.

And I do have a word in mind that hits that number bang on, but kind of irrelevant to the game. Unless you hit it bang on, you can get those 10 bonus points.

Or if you say any word that hits this number bang on, you will get the 10 bonus points. Hmm.
I've got one. Yeah, I've got one.
Okay, well, John, we'll come to you first.

I'm going to say Freddy.

Freddie. Ellis.

Oh, no.

You can't be thinking now I've said my word.

Oh, you're absolutely mad. Because

that was in a jingle for quite a while as well, email.

And we say it like three times an episode.

Well, how many episodes have we done? I've got no idea. About a thousand.

Oh, a bad guess.

Alright, then.

Am I going to change it? No, no, no. Alright again.

Email.

What was the answer at the 665?

Oh, in fact, Alice, not that bad. 4,592.

So some 10, okay, per power of 10. Alright, then.
Yeah, you're 3,900 out, roughly.

John, 944.

Okay, cool that's the point so we're coming up to the the thousand we should do a special show

well we've said it probably three times in this episode so it's keeping up you

beg your pardon what about archaeologist are you mad sorry

sorry sorry sorry sorry we did it

to ellie oldroid every show three times what's going on in your head

Yeah.

I mean, chat.

We only chatted to in the summer. It's a good point.
Cricket would have got you closer. But I'm not going to give you the answer because you might want to use cricket elsewhere in the game.

My heart skipped a beat, John, because when you went Freddy,

I thought you were going to say fridge. And that was the answer we were looking for.
Lovely. Fridge.
Well, mustard in the fridge, are you high? Was in a jingle every week for us to do it.

So the jingles. The jails count.
Okay, that's a jingles

count.

So I thought you were about to get it bang on, which would have been incredible. But still, John, one nil to your good self.
Thank you. A couple of examples.
Oh, you absolute fridge.

You complete fridge.

John, butter has existed far longer than the fridge.

True. Milk has existed far longer than the fridge.
True. It is a point I will make again and again.

Right, round two.

1,440.

So double the popularity, really, in theory, compared to fridge.

Okay, I've got one. Okay, Ellis, we'll come to you first.
Oasis.

Oasis.

I don't think that's bad.

John. Queen.

Queen, it's music.

Okay, both of them are locked in. I can reveal neither of those are the word that I was looking for, but let's see who was closest.

Queen.

2,979. Dear, dear, dear, dear, dear.
Neither of you are that close, but Ellis, you are closer with... Oh, hold on.
Yes, you are closer with Oasis at 745.

So what is the word?

Oh, the word was vibe.

Oh, nice.

How many times? 1,440.

1,440 vibes. I'm trying to think where that's come from.

We'll have talked about your vibe, male a lot, John.

Yeah. God, you're getting the plugs in this episode, aren't you, Dave? Thanks, man.
Sorry, yeah. Well, you know.

A couple of examples, or just one example here. I'm not sure you can vibe dancing on ice.
It's not called vibing on ice.

Vibing on ice, just improvising from Ellis James. Okay, nice.
I mean, already, I mean, what's that four times you've said vibe there? Oh, it's vibing, though, isn't it? So, you've only got one vibe.

I was going to say, I'm not sure vibing counts towards it.

Okay, here we go. 2-3-1 for round number three:

231. 231.

It's a great bit of music just to think over.

Now, I thought this might be higher, but um, hit me.

Uh, John, please. I'm still thinking, Dave.
No worries, in which case, we'll have to wait.

Can't be influenced by Ellis's guess, so you just keep that little mouth of yours shut, Ellis, okay, until John is ready. I've got it.
Okay, John's in. Ellis, we'll come to you first.

Taskmaster.

I think that'll be high. I think that'll be high.

John. Gorkies.
Gorkies, I think that's a lot higher as well, you know.

Let's see, though.

231. Neither of the words that I was looking for.

Oh.

Has it picked up Gorkies when you type it in? Because it might not know how to spell it.

It's picked it up.

Gorkies, 106 times. Huh.

Taskmaster.

Sorry, a bit more information here.

Plus 14

with Gorkies with an apostrophe. So it's taken both.
Okay. So actually, you've got John 120.

Ellis, Taskmaster. We're aiming for 2-3-1.
You've got 155. It's 2-1 in Round.
Is it Better 3? No, that we're doing 5, unfortunately.

The word was significant.

Significant has been said, 2-3-1.

Okay. Which you might think is higher, but it's more than a hundred.
I would have thought that would be higher, actually, yeah.

More recent phrase, I'd say. This is crushing.
You did nothing wrong, Debbie. You did nothing wrong.

It's just, is it Pontiates? How do you pronounce it? Pontiettes. It's just Pontiette's is significant, and I got it wrong.
I think that was you trying to

appease someone after a cum reconnection, I imagine. Oh, okay.

Great. All right, round four.
Oh.

Low numbers. 86.

Round four, 86.

Okay, yeah, I've got one. John.

Apollo. Interesting.

Ellis. Sacred.

Are you absolutely mad? What is a sacred cow? Yeah, but 86 times. I must have said it when I'm not...
We must have talked about the feature after we'd stopped doing it. Yeah, I know.

And yeah, I think we're saying that's a low. because

no, we didn't do it for that long, I don't think, because we ran out of bands. Yeah, but think how many times we might say the word sacred in one case.
Sacred cow.

But you might be right.

It might just be one and ap. John, you said Apollo.
Ellis, you said sacred. The answer, well,

the number we were trying to hit was 86. Ellis, sacred was said 354 times.

Apollo, 172 times. It's two all going into the final round.
Sorry, that's my sense bird clock going off again. I don't know what the bird song is, or I can't stop it.
Sorry,

Apollo's a great guess. The word, of course, was Stansby.

Oh, lovely. Oh, okay.
Lovely days. Stansby got 86 outings.

So it's two all. Two all going into the fifth.

And final round.

The number we're trying to hit is 837.

Hmm. 837.
Quite a word clearly here that's been said. Quite a lot.
Yeah, I've got one.

Ellis, we'll come to you first. Edinburgh.
Edinburgh.

Okay, I think that's not bad.

John.

Adrian.

Adrian.

Oof.

Two big hitters there, but it's a big round. I guess.

Because obviously Edinburgh we would say a lot, but we wouldn't say it all year round. But I think we talk about Edinburgh anecdotes and how it's...
I think you're on the money.

Well, we shall see. We shall see.

Oh.

Edinburgh, 1,824 times. That's amazing.
Adrian, 1,370 times.

Oh, good lord. And it's still not enough, if you ask me.
It's not enough. We need to work.
That's great gameplay, John. Thank you.
Good gameplay. That's incredible gameplay.
So 3-2 to John.

The word we were looking for, of course, was bum.

Oh, lovely.

I'm really impressed with your Adrian guest. I think that's great gameplay.
I would have thought it was Adrian was... I don't know what I actually think anymore, now that I know the reality.

Impressive gameplay. Well done.
Impressive. Impressive.

He's so...

What's the word when you're

magnanimous, aren't you? Incredible. Yours looks like the bum of an elderly swimmer in the changing rooms.
It's sort of lost its form and it's got a couple of moles on it, some hairs.

John on Alice's bum from Radio X, episode 253.

Lovely.

Great.

Edinburgh's way higher than I expected.

I agree. We came live from Edinburgh a lot.
Yeah. Well, we did that first year.
We only did that one year. No, because I was in Edinburgh a lot.

Oh, Oh, yeah, of course, yeah. 3-2 to John.
He nicks it. This game.
I've got to say the phrase Edinburgh Comedy Award winner's been knocking around for nearly 10 years now.

He's got a good point.

And you cannot take that off the record. No, that's your legacy.
That's on the Wikipedia. Legacy.

Even if you did something horrific, that would still stand.

There'd be an asterisk next to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, it'd be Edinburgh Comedy Award winner has done this. No, it'd be disgraced Edinburgh Comedy Award winner.

Yeah, yeah.

Award called into question, brought into disrepute because of his actions. Yes.
Edinburgh Comedy Award revoked.

Probably. Yeah, I don't think he could revoke it, though, because he was the people's champion.

The Jimmy White of stand-up comedy.

Right, some thank yous then. Thank you to Jack and Trevor for making the website that was used to make the game.
Thank you to Tarin, who came up with the game.

Thank you to Becca and Tom for writing the Avril Levine-inspired jingle. And thank you to Alice and John for being the first time.
Thank you to Adrian. And thank you to Adrian.

And thank you for the thousandth time to Freddy.

That was made up game. What on chaps? That was lovely.
We enjoyed that very much. Shall we end with a shame well, Dave? Yes, yeah, if you've got one, absolutely.

Of course, I've got shame coming out of me

for the 886th time bum.

Okay,

okay.

Okay.

Okay.

What was I thinking? Why did I say he had nice ankles? She was stood behind me the whole time. I didn't know he's only got one hand.
I was signed in on her Gmail.

John's shame

well.

Yes, this week's shame from a remote well, I have wells all around the world, actually,

that I can get into within an hour's drive from anywhere. Yeah.
There's a well. A lot of them are owned by foreign governments.

But

I keep them open and they are cleaned once every six months. And you've got diplomatic immunity in there, haven't you?

Yes, I do have diplomatic immunity in there, and that entitles me to a special number plate and driving in bus lanes.

Hello, my perfect little credit scorers. After After much procrastination I'm sharing with you my shame well.
It was years ago but still manages to make me cringe and laugh whenever I think about it.

My boyfriend moved to Frankfurt for a job at a large German bank and after he'd been working there for about a month I flew over for a weekend visit.

Instead of a happy reunion at the airport he told me to meet him at work and I successfully navigated my way to his office.

Before checking out the Frankfurt social scene, my boyfriend wanted to quickly introduce me to his new colleagues. We walked into a room where 15 people were sitting in a circle on office chairs.

The meeting paused and everyone turned to look at us. My boyfriend ushered me forward and introduced me to the group.

I then found myself standing in the middle of a circle being introduced to Klaus, not his real name, the head of department and my boyfriend's new boss.

As I turned to Klaus, he leant forward and I thought to myself, oh, we're on the continent, and I happily kissed him on both cheeks.

A puzzled look came across Klaus' face, and I thought, oh no, it must be three kisses in Germany.

And I promptly kissed him again.

It was then that I noticed Klaus's outstretched hand, and realised he'd actually just leant forward slightly as he stood up to shake my hand.

Out of the corner of my eye, I saw my boyfriend's horrified expression as Klaus, incredibly professionally, given this rather awkward exchange, welcomed me to Frankfurt and wished me an enjoyable visit.

My boyfriend then introduced me to the person to Klaus's left, Johanna, not her real name, and I sensed the tension in his voice. A panicked thought flashed across my mind.

I can't look like I'm sucking up to the boss.

No. So I kissed Johanna three times.

What followed was possibly the most awkward of ten minutes of my life, as my boyfriend introduced me to each of his colleague and I kissed them all three times. Yeah.

Not the best start to our weekend. Frankfurt was a great city though, and I never went back.
This was another nail in the coffin of what was an already dying relationship. Love the podcast.
Big hugs.

It's the fact she had to do the triple.

Well, on everyone, yeah, you don't want to need someone out. One kiss is one thing, but to do the triple for everyone, that's so much kissing.
And it's continental panic.

Oh, my goodness. That would not be out of place on an episode of Friends.

What a lovely thought, Dave.

Thanks, John. But you know, you can see Rachel at a high-powered fashion event while she's working for Ralph Ferrer

and gets it wrong and then has to kiss them all. The audience go crazy.
They love it.

You're always coming up with ideas for friends. Let it go.

They're not opening your post anymore. They're not going to make another one, Dave.
It's fine.

Yeah. Oh, wow.

Oh, my God. It's the triple.

They're forced into the triple. But I suppose there was nothing else she could do, was there? It's 47 kisses in total.

Which is too many kisses,

even for a marriage. Where's the last time you kissed your partners 47 times in a day?

I will be doing it later on.

Oh my god. Anyway, great shame.
Well, and if you have one and you'd like John to absolve you of his shame, send it to EllisonJohn at bbc.co.uk we'll be back with you on friday goodbye bye-bye

hello it's ray winstone i'm here to tell you about my podcast on bbc radio 4 history's toughest heroes I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head.
Tough enough for you.

Subscribe to history's toughest heroes wherever you get your podcast.