The Dean Henderson Final, Scottish police enganches & the hitman criteria

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I'm sorry, you can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines as much as you like.

Is Fast Going going to have a crack?

He is, you know.

Oh, I say

brilliant.

But geez, he's round the goalkeeper.

He's done it.

Absolutely incredible.

He launched himself six feet into the crowd and Kung Fu kicked a supporter who was

without a shadow of a doubt getting him lip.

Oh, I say

it's amazing.

He does it tame and tame and tame

Can a nation crash out of Eurovision?

The near universally well-received spectacle of Crystal Palace winning the FA Cup and Sean Deish being vindicated in real time.

How close was Dean Henderson to reaching the threshold of the Player X final?

Goodbye Goodison with Gray and Keys.

Touchline reporters' names in Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2.

Fulham fans stake their claim for longest to realize an away goal has gone in supremacy.

What defines a hitman?

And Harry Winks vs.

the Alphabet.

Brought to your ears by Goal Hanger Podcasts.

This is Football Cliches.

Hello everyone and welcome to Football Cliches.

I'm Adam Hurry.

This is the adjudication panel.

Joining me is Charlie Eccleshaire.

How you doing?

Very well, thank you.

Alongside you, David Walker.

How are things?

Things are good.

Excellent.

Before we get started, a shout out to Johnny Russell, Kev Burgess, Andy Pompey, and Martin Durant, who were all pretty much neck and neck in responding first to the listener's quiz question last week.

And the answer is that Jimmy Floyd Hasselbank was the goal-scoring Premier League debutant on the opening day of the 1997-98 season, who had to subsequently change the name on the back of his shirt.

Charlie, what was that name that he had on that opening day?

Yeah, please say I also got this right.

Before any of them, I got the

technical about it.

He just had Jimmy on the back of of his shirt.

Yeah.

Imagine, Dave, he could have just been known as Jimmy for the entirety of his Premier League career.

Something of

a pioneer in that respect.

Ahead of his time.

Yeah.

Although, yeah, then the trend was more for it to have been Floyd, because you had like Gamps Pedersen and people like that.

Gampst.

I feel like that was quite a thing of having a middle name.

But Jimmy, I do remember as well when Jimmy Floyd Hasselbank came and there being a thing about the fact that he just he was known as Jimmy.

But yeah, it didn't stick.

I mean, I always thought he looked really impressive with Hasselbank across his shoulders.

It made him look more imposing, like it just broad-shouldered.

It filled the back of his shirt.

So, I don't know.

Different tastes, I guess.

Let's do the adjudication panel.

First up, the big story of the weekend.

This came from Luke Slater and listener Michael Cox.

BBC report saying, oh no, not again.

For the third year in a row, the UK has crashed out at Eurovision, taking 19th place out of a possible 26.

The Evening Standard, UK crashes out of Eurovision as Public delivers brutal zero points for second year in a row.

Dave, can you crash out of Eurovision?

I don't know.

Can you?

I mean, the kind of the final, Charlie, is a league table, so you can't crash out of that.

You could crash out in the semi-finals, but I think that's just for the shit muncher countries.

So I think the UK are part of the official big five, and they're not allowed to be relegated as such.

So, yeah, it's all about TV rights and things like that.

So you could crash out in the semi-finals, but you can't crash out of Eurovision proper, can you?

Crashing out does more imply there is a kind of knockout stage element which doesn't really exist.

Yeah.

I think the fact that we were 19th out of 26, right?

So it's not like we're in the relegation, theoretical relegation spots, but we are firmly languishing.

Like UK's spell in the Eurovision doldrums continues.

Yeah, but I also think, you know,

it's become part of Eurovision kind of tapestry is just of DeVoe Goes the UK because it's funny.

And

what I, I mean, this has been well documented, Charlie.

I know we're getting into Resty's Entertainment Territory here, but what baffles me a bit, and it's a bit footballers kind of has this habit of, well, being constantly surprised by the same thing over and over again,

which is it doesn't matter how good the song is.

It'll be the same, it'll be the same result.

It doesn't matter how good the UK is.

So all these reports saying, Actually, they thought they were really good this year.

It doesn't matter.

Yeah.

But yeah, I mean, it is a bit of a this is the UK we're talking about, isn't it?

Yeah.

In the answer to your relegation point, Dave, between 1994 and 2003, Eurovision Song Contest did actually have a relegation system to stop certain countries with poor results participating in order to limit the number of participants for financial and time reasons.

So I think once the Iron Curtain came down, there were just shitloads more countries.

And they just thought, well, can't have all of them.

So a bit of relegation going on.

So yeah, it's quite a rich history thanks to Eurovision Wiki page for that.

Right.

Now, between Crystal Palace...

Goodison Park and to a certain extent Jamie Vardy, Charlie, it was quite the weekend for shareable Not a Club X fan butt content, wasn't it?

I think we were all sort of invited to join in this universal kind of...

I'm not going to say Wank wank fest.

I'm going to say no no I don't think it was well I mean but it's funny the different ones because I have to say the palace one really got me I've got no attachment to palace at all but watching I only saw like the end of the match really basically injury time onwards and I felt really emotional on their behalf whereas Goodison I think I didn't watch the game and maybe because I was just a little bit far removed and it it didn't really connect with me for whatever reason.

It's a step away from football as well, isn't it?

It's football adjacent, the idea

of it, isn't it?

And I think the issue for me with it was I became a bit desensitised to Goodison because every game they were playing seemed to be previewed with last time they'll play Manchester City at Goodison, of course.

And it was all these like really irrelevant bits.

Then by the time it was actually their last game, I was kind of like, sort of over it now.

It's been built up for so long.

Vardy's cool.

I mean, I'm really pleased he scored.

It was the ultimate who else, but, you know, it had to be him.

I mean, what?

You'll never get a more.

It had to be him.

I checked.

I saw they were wondering up and saw it, and I was like, it's got got to be him.

What must be the odds were for Jamie Vardie to score, Dave?

I mean, it would have been the easiest bet in the world.

I reckon.

Do you think he was odds on to score any time?

I reckon, Dave, even the Ip Switch team must have been like, should we just...

I mean, it'd be tidy if he did.

He's on 199.

This is his 500th appearance.

He'd look very tidy on his Wikipedia page.

Yeah, go on.

Just let him run past you and tuck it in.

Well, they disguised it very well, if so.

Sunderland were the team, weren't they, who let John Terry have his like 26-minute substitution?

It was a similar sort of thing.

I'm not sure there's anything they could have done about it, it, to be honest, Carlin.

Yeah, so but they joined in like calling it a pick.

Yeah, but no, but they didn't have to like boot the ball off to accommodate it.

I'm pretty sure they were complicit and then were sort of clapping it.

Where, because I think Moyes was the manager and was asked about it afterwards.

And I would have thought most would be like, no, like,

this is your thing.

One of the Sunderland players should have hurried him off, you know, gone over and she's going, come on, mate.

Give him that, give it a shot.

That would have been amazing.

Well, we'll get on to, we'll certainly get on to Crystal Palace in more detail and perhaps Goodison Park in a moment, but let's stay on Vardy for the moment, Dave.

FPL Dabbler asks, where do you stand on Vardy not playing on the final weekend to stay on a nice round 500 appearances?

I'm a fan.

I mean, I'm a bit taught.

It's like, don't you just want to play again?

I mean, are we that obsessed with the tidy numbers?

He's done it now.

So just let him play again.

Do it under the radar.

Well, it's 500 appearances and 200 goals.

It is really nice.

And he scores again.

Does he ruin it?

They're away next week.

It's, you know, he's had his send-off at the King Power.

It is quite tidy.

Is it a bit after the Lord Mayor's show, Charlie, if he plays next week?

What have you got a hat trick?

Yeah, it is so neat.

I remember years ago talking to Darren Anderton when he was the Spurs record appearance holder in the Premier League with 299.

And I did say something, I was like, that must annoy you.

That is objectively really irritable.

You must have asked him that, I bet.

This is good.

But, you know, like, just one more.

It's almost like,

like, at the the end of your career just come back and put you on for a minute

just last game of the season just sign him oh my god can you imagine like the ultimate they've tossed the league off that darren anderton play

he was probably in i mean all spurs fans were doing their kind of banter 11s for the villa game the other night ahead of the europa league final i'm sure shaggy wouldn't have damaged their prospects too much fair play to all three of us for going through that 30 seconds without making a joke about darren anderson being injured in the context of tottenh hot spurs season fantastic work do you know what as well he's quite prickly about that He says that is exactly, you know, and I think that appearance record is

supports that to a degree.

Yeah, Peep Show popularised it.

That's the last thing he needed to burst out the football bubble, become a mainstream thing.

Over to Goodison Park, then, Dave, amid the Goodison farewell throng were Keys and Gray.

I've seen several clips of them sort of snaking their way through a crowd of Everton fans.

Andy Gray leading the way, as you'd imagine, and you would hope, taking in the applause, the accolades, the selfies, and then Keesy just behind him.

Like a, I don't know, I don't know what the word is, but just sort of soaking in the kind of secondary recognition.

It's quite the spectacle.

It was almost, I mean, yeah, he was taking in a bit of adulation as well, but he was kind of behind him, you know, like a sort of part of his team, like a handler or someone, just sort of walking him through the crowds just to make sure he's okay.

Not my first choice of bodyguard, Charlie, I'll be honest.

Keesy.

Yeah.

No, probably not.

But who else but him him for that role with Andy Gray really?

Yeah and so Keese's day and he had a big grin on his face the whole time Dave just really happy to be back amongst it in the Premier League flesh and it culminated with Keesy very much in shot by the way draped in an Everton scarf interviewing David Moyes after the game.

We've now got ourselves really in a good position finished the season really strongly at the moment so I'm hoping we can take the same atmosphere we had today down at the new stadium but we'll need to perform the way we have to perform thank you enjoy it and many congratulations it's good to see you good to see you back is this your first time

might be the last

speak to you later my first question here i mean i i can't imagine this was part of the being sports production plan charlie so do you reckon keese pulled rank here and said right uh give me the mic i think i'll take this one almost certainly yeah i mean it's quite weird he's wearing an evident scarf isn't it i mean the sort of thing that he would, you know, that sort of impartiality, I don't think would sit very well with him.

Imagine it, you know, some fancy down foreign manager and you've got him being interviewed by his mate.

I'm going to stick up for Keese here, Dave.

I think this is the one scenario where a journalist could wear a scarf of a football team and it'd be considered, yeah, a bit much, but, you know, impartiality isn't that big a deal.

They've just left their stadium and that's it.

Like, they haven't won anything.

You're not declaring allegiance.

You're just saying, here's a club who has a big history.

Yeah.

Although there is a little bit of like Keesey trying to get in on the act with Andy.

It's like, all right mate i actually did play for them you know no

let him have his moment for god's sake keezy has no attachment i mean despite he started out and radio in liverpool didn't he

he's got zero connection i i think i i suspect that was part of it like just being back on his you know his patch old stomping ground how many times do you think he referred to goodison as the grand old lady

oh god there she is you there she is yeah tremendous i actually i found myself watching almost the entire pre and post-match kind of celebrations on TNT yesterday, and I was getting a bit annoyed with it actually.

And I think it's a slightly difficult position for TNT to be in because they're kind of they have to decide: do we treat this like a normal match and do the normal things, or do we do something completely different?

But before the match, they had Duncan Ferguson, Phil Jagielka, James Tarkovsky, and presented by Lindsay Hipgrave.

And they were kind of doing their normal on-pitch chat, but talking about everything that's going on around them.

But because they were talking about it, you couldn't hear, really hear like anything that was going on around them.

There was like a great moment where There She Goes by the Lars was played, and the whole crowd was singing it.

And I was just like,

I want to hear that.

Like, shut up.

Like, we don't need to hear how special it was for James Tarkovsky to score in that derby a few weeks ago again.

But the alternative, what?

It's just, is what, Fletch kind of talking over the top of it and then just sort of letting it all play out.

The Lars, of course.

Wonderful track.

Yeah, so maybe they were stuck a little bit.

But then Ali McCoy's up in the stairs going, is that the Lars?

Ice the Lars.

Fantastic.

There was a lot of, during the game as well, there was a lot of shots of all of the ex-players in the crowd, which Ali McCoyce was just loving them, all of them.

There was a lot of what a player he was, by the way, and how great it is to see.

He was Ali McCoyce absolutely beside himself seeing Archie Knox and and Walter Smith's wife in the crowd, which was actually quite nice.

It was perfect for McCoy's, like properly genuine, heartfelt emotion.

And he knew all the players.

He knew who they all were.

There was a great bit where they kept cutting to during the match, which wasn't that eventful, they kept cutting to Jagielke and Duncan Ferguson, who were mic'd up like on down by the side of the pitch.

And Ferguson took it upon himself to come in after they'd spoken to Jagielka and were like about to throw back to Fletch, But Ferguson just took the mic and just started speaking about whatever it was they were just talking about as an attack was happening.

And Ferguson just started commentating.

And it nearly went in.

It's quite jarring when it happens.

It would have been great to see.

I think it was

Njar who missed another shot.

And if it had gone in, would Ferguson have like carried on, giving it the big, the big and after the iconic commentary?

He would have to redo it like Martin.

Would have been great.

And then there was another bit in the second half, again, where they were talking to Jagielke, and it was just perfect timing.

Duncan Ferguson let out the biggest, most visible yawn you could ever see whilst Jagielke was talking to Fletch over the mic.

Oh well.

That's TNT.

It's just a little bit loose around the edges, I think.

But Charlie, this may well have just turned out this way, you know, just been perfect in every way, or we're just kind of completely imprisoned by the news cycle and and and we just accept whatever it brings us.

But did we hear just the right amount about Goodison Park before

it hosted its final Everton men's game?

What else could you possibly have needed to hear about Goodison Park?

No, yeah, I think we definitely hit saturation point, yeah.

But I think that would be my

only thing I would suggest for next time is just wait until it's closer to being done and then you do it.

Because before then, it's like, it's too hard to imagine or care about when it's like, oh, this will be their last FA Cup game at Goodison Park.

Fletch was willing a goal to go in in the second half as well.

Just as the game was like properly petering out 2-0, Southampton were actually fashioning a few chances.

And Fletch was going, There's surely going to be one last goal at the Gladys Street end.

And

it didn't come to pass.

But I mean, you mentioned it there, Adam.

The fact that the announcement came last week that the women's team are going to now be playing at Goodison, which

is a great thing for them.

And it'll be interesting to see how long that lasts, if they can properly make it their own and fill it up and make it a thing.

But did it did have the unintended consequence of slightly undermining some of the the language around it on the occasion because it's it's understand you know we get it that the the the emotion was real but i listened to talk sport a little bit in the build-up and they'd obviously decided well every

mention we're going to say last men's game but tnt were like properly like this is the last time if you didn't know about the women moving moving in and taking over you wouldn't you wouldn't know about it because they properly went for it like this is the last time we're going to see football at Goodison Park, really.

Yeah, in my cynical mind, Charlie, I'd assume they would just knock it down straight away and cash it in.

But after that, maybe there aren't any property developers lining up.

Who knows?

Yeah, no, I know.

I sort of thought the same.

Yeah, it does slightly

not confuse things, but it's not quite as definitive as it's been made out.

Well, the grand old lady still standing.

Over to the FA Cup final now.

Doc Brown, Chloe Petts, Jack Pierce, who sent in that listener's MHD with those slightly too realistic sounding waves lapping against the shore.

I hope you all had a great day.

And I think, as Charlie mentioned, Dave, we all seem to get sucked into this overwhelmingly romantic vibe to the last sort of 72 hours or so.

And it did feel like one of the kind of purest elite level footballing storylines for a while.

Am I going overboard here?

Are there any caveats to this?

I think from the perspective of someone who supports a team who have recently been in an FA Cup final against the same opponents and are of, you know, a smaller class.

It's a case of what could have been than Palace.

But like, you can project your emotions a little bit onto the Palace fans here and sort of think how amazing it would be.

You can sort of imagine how amazing it would be to feel what they're feeling.

And I think the fact that the Palace fan base, noted for their enthusiastic support over however many years since they

brought in the Holmesdale Fanatics, or whatever they're called, they seem like a good team to fit this role.

They play their part really well.

So likable as a team in a club.

You know,

they do just have a lot of likable players who no one's really got.

I mean, Brighton fans, maybe I'm sure, were not enjoying it, but generally,

I think they are one of those teams who people like.

And I do think also, without getting too like state of football about it, I remember looking at this when West Ham won the Conference League, feeling similarly for them.

And I was like, why does this feel so rare?

And I looked at it and it is just simp, like, there's been such a decline in the number of teams who win anything because obviously,

it's one thing like City dominating the Premier League, but what's happened in the last 20 years is those same teams also win win the FA Cup and the Carabao Cup.

Whereas there used to be way more variation on that.

So there are just so few teams who do it.

And it's this is such a rare situation.

Like we're used to just watching City, maybe United, maybe Chelsea, maybe Arsenal winning the Cups, which, you know,

who's going to get excited about that?

Two points on that then.

Charlie, first of all, I would say this cemented Crystal Palace's status as the do you know what?

I don't mind Crystal Palace.

Like they're so the they are the number ones.

You know what?

I don't mind club clubs, are they?

Well, they are, especially as like even within London, you know, because the other London clubs have big rivalry, most of them have big rivalries.

The fact that their biggest rival in some ways is, I mean, I guess Millwall, but Millwall haven't been in the Premier League, but like top flight is Brighton.

But otherwise, all the London clubs have other London clubs they hate and, you know, have sort of tensions with a lot more than that.

And they're quite good to watch at the moment as well.

For once, they're actually not, you know, just a bit ropey.

I think having a player who's as obviously likable as Ebertchieza, and you know, they've got a couple of English, you know, got Mark Gay, who's an England player, and Wharton, and Mateta's really likable as well.

Yeah, they do, they do have a perfect mixture of likable characters, exciting players.

They've got a manager who and people seem to quite like him.

He's sort of quite a nice bloke, it seems.

Sort of a normal bloke who doesn't sort of say anything weird or go crazy.

I think this did bleed into the coverage a bit, though.

And I can imagine, to look at it from the other side, if you're a city fan or if you don't like palace you probably would be pissed off and i think you probably might call it a wank fest charlie because because i thought we were getting close to that for a bit to be honest that's unlikable

on the uh on the bbc coverage you had the they were talking to glasner about the uh dean henderson hand ball which was fairly cut and dry i mean you know the var explained it away but like the blokes handballed the box outside the box and we can all see it and lineker just kind of went well i think i think it was probably the right decision for football anyway wasn't it and you're a bit like if you're a a city fan, you're going, no, it wasn't.

It has been slight.

Well, an element of it has been airbrushed, I think.

But yeah, it was generally, Charlie, a day for the footballing underdog and sort of a long end to a wait for kind of footballing vindication.

On that note, on BBC Radio 5 Live, we finally saw Sean Deish, in a way, being proved completely right in the space of about 45 seconds.

They are count inside the palace half, and Palace are having to defend deep.

Savinia looks for the run of Marmouche.

one bounce, out for a goal kick, 0-0.

You know why I went to Arc Sean?

Your team started like this.

How do you get up the pitch?

Well I agree with what you're saying.

For me you go right, get up, it's it to the big man.

I know it sounds really simple and we're probably listening, he always says that.

But it's effective.

On this occasion, yeah.

Because you're looking at it, look at their pressing positions, Man City.

Look how brave, look how strong they're being.

So they're obviously setting that up for easy.

So this is where your game management comes in.

This is where the manager, the coaches, all your players go get up the pitch, go and smother around Mateta.

First balls and second balls.

Go change the feel of the game.

There were four sky blue shirts ready to press from the off for that goal kick.

They do get it forward towards Mateta, and all of a sudden, now Crystal Palace can make a rare follow into the Manchester City half.

Munyaster Ezekiel!

Most won't be aware of the ball!

Counter-attack!

What a devastating counter-attack!

And Crystal Palace with the first serious attack score.

The sheer pleasure in Daish's sort of intervention when their goal went in their tape.

That's why I love football.

Just wait five seconds, Sean.

You can have your say in a second.

Yeah, he lost his body.

Not his radio discipline there, did he?

Yeah, I mean,

it did unfold perfectly, and particularly satisfying, I think, if you were watching the game with the option of having the five-live commentary on, because I think it's relatively unlikely that a co-commentator on the TV coverage would be given quite that long to talk about

their point that he's taken advantage of the space and the description that you need to bring to radio, and it looks really nice on the coverage.

It's perfect.

Where are we, Charlie, in the Sean Daish kind of discourse life cycle?

Because we won't have time on this podcast to go in depth on his appearance on Stick to Football the other day, for example, where he was pure Daish, talking about jargon in football and how football's, you know, a much more simple game than we think and that sort of stuff.

But even in that snippet.

where he's talking about how Palace should go long to Mateta and break the press, you still get that self-referential kind of, oh, yeah, I know, I'm always saying this.

Where is his evolution going now?

How much in character is he going to go?

I don't know.

I don't really know where he can go from here.

I mean, he can't, I think he, he'll need to just remain, he can't become a regular, can he?

Because I think that I think people would get tired of the shtick quite quickly.

But if he makes like the odd appearance, say on MNF, I think he'd get a good amount of like, yeah, he tells it like it is.

Football is a simple game.

It doesn't need to be overcomplicated.

But hearing that all the time, because I just don't know how many gears he has.

I mean, his appearance on Stick to Football was very similar to what we heard on the Keys and Grey podcast a couple of years ago, wasn't it?

It's got to the point, actually, now, Dave, especially when Dice talks about jargon specifically, I really want to get him on the clichés pod and be the first people, and I'm not saying this with any sort of journalistic rigor, I just want to be the first people to say, why does it matter?

Like, why does it matter that we're calling them false nines or whatever?

Like, they're just words.

Like,

you're a top-level Premier League manager.

Just look past it.

Like,

you're supposed to be really good at this.

I know.

Yeah, I completely agree.

And I, you I wonder if there has ever been instances like some of the coaches that the clubs he's worked at, who are modern coaches, might be a bit younger than him, must use this language.

Do you think he pulls them up on it?

Like when they're having team meetings and stuff?

I don't believe it.

I don't believe that.

I reckon when the mood takes him, he'll love sort of humiliating a

really earnest young colleague with

an iPad or whatever.

I do think that this trend amongst people like Daish of talking about the modern language in this way is is definitely gathering a bit of steam.

Like even Neville a few weeks ago, when he was talking about how boring he finds the modern game and that sort of thing.

And I think, even though it's obviously a lot less serious than this, I think it does sort of bleed into the sort of general backlash we've seen against wokeness in like political life a little bit as well.

I just think it's sort of, there's more people now that are more prepared to kind of go, you know what, what, yeah, I actually agree with Daesh.

Yeah, the way that I think it is.

The atmosphere and the climate is a little bit more open to it than it might have been a few years ago.

I think that's true, but I think that's why Adam's point is a really good one.

Because I not that I agree with, but I get the issue that people have with like the woke brigade comes from like, why are we changing the words of these things?

This is ridiculous because they feel it's being done for the wrong reasons.

But in football, there isn't any of that.

We're not changed.

It's not like we've changed the language because like, oh, we don't want to offend long ball merchants.

Like, that's not where it's come from.

It's just a very natural, very organic evolution.

But I think you're right, Dave, but it's it comes from a similar place.

But it's like, what?

In this case, it really doesn't matter.

It's happened very democratically that people have just started talking in a slightly different way.

But maybe also as well.

It's just pushed a jar, and Daesh has helped do that.

Like, as soon as the door is ajar, it feels normal to be able to say it.

And that's, I think, is part of the phenomenon.

I mean, some of it as well is probably xenophobic because some of the language of football, you know, like geggen pressing, obviously, that's a

foreign word.

And so there's that element.

Um, back to the game itself, Dave.

Courtship date on Reddit says, um, could this be called the Dean Henderson final?

Can a goalkeeper have a game named after them?

Did it even come close to the FA Cup final threshold for being called the Player X final?

I think the fact that he was a major talking point in a potential red card VAR controversy, saved the penalty, yeah, and had a bit of a

set two with Guardiola at the end.

That's true.

What more has he got to do?

Yeah, I mean, he was wearing wearing a cap.

It all adds up.

Last Saint replied on Reddit, Charlie, saying there's clearly some sort of conspiracy against goalkeepers.

And they say if Troutman, Montgomery, and Besson couldn't do it, how on earth can Henderson achieve it?

So maybe there's just like goalkeepers can't actively influence a game like Stanley Matthews did in 1953.

Yeah, well, they're too obvious a protagonist in some ways.

But, yeah, I mean, I was thinking that.

Do we even...

I feel like we're very reluctant to give anyone that accolade now.

it's been a long time

was the last player X final I think is that right win final I think is but also where are they officially christened I mean they're you just mean that they've sort of they meet the threshold of if you said it people wouldn't really disagree with you it wouldn't sound contrived pretty much basically yeah pretty much yeah yeah but I think that's just a modern thing I think it's a thing of like the reverence we have for the past means it would feel like oh no we couldn't possibly do that now you know it's that's recency but it's like the reverse recency bias right okay like I looked into this a few years ago i remember kane had this like ridiculous perform against man city spurs won three two kane scored two made the other it was just like an unreal performance against the league champions who had won like the last 20 games or something and i tweeted being like god that's got to be one of the best individual performances in a premier league game ever and people were just like what how can you say no it isn't how can you and i was like okay well name five better like i don't need to you can't say that no i actually i respect that instinct to say no it can't possibly be.

You're just over it.

Have you said it can't possibly be that?

Like, what more could he have done?

Yeah.

What you should have done, Charlie, is caveat with a pound for pound.

Yeah.

Then you would have been.

That does end all arguments.

It was all happening at Wembley, actually, Dave.

At one point, at least one of the club doctors got involved in a contre tent in the technical area.

And Atono asked me on Twitter, can team doctors be sent off?

What happens when a player leaves their attention later?

I don't know what the rules are.

I mean, presumably they can be sanctioned by a referee like anybody else, but they can't be sent to the stands.

But if they could, would they have to sort of use a little head piece, like earpiece, and have to talk someone through it?

Like you're on the phone with a paramedic.

Stretch the

right, listen to me now.

Just stay calm.

Do as I say, we'll be okay.

Stretch the ankle.

You can't send off a glove doctor, surely.

Right, what you need to do is, if you think it needs to come off, you need to rotate one one finger around the other finger and do it really quickly yeah no not with your palms not with your palms that's moving ball

top notch um who knows i can't wait for this to happen and be tested uh but i mean it feels like these figures are getting more and more prominent charlie as kind of actors in sort of ted situations we've had the set piece coaches kicking off why not the doctors there was that there was one with analysts as well where all the nerds from both from both teams the buffins were going at it and i think there was some sendings off there.

I don't know.

Maybe they should be slightly more impartial, the doctors, but you see them celebrating goals.

So maybe they do get involved.

I mean, this was the FA Cup final traditionally, Dave, is a day for all the big figures in the country to enjoy and reflect on.

And Sakir Starmer was talking about looking forward to Eurovision.

Having just returned from a European summit in Albania, the Prime Minister will sit down on Saturday with his family for what has become something of a tradition.

That will be a must, he says.

It's always the same.

The FA Cup, then Eurovision.

All the family watch it.

Jimmy B says that's only been on the same day a couple of times, 2022 and 2019 in the last 10 years.

Oh, no.

Stop doing this, Gierstama.

Why?

Oh, I love that.

That is just such a, like, such an easy sort of gaff to make.

Like, like, I don't think that comes from that bad app.

I think people often conflate things in their minds, but yeah, just you've got to be getting that right.

You've got to check it.

Want them on the same day.

I don't want them on the same day.

I'm not a big Eurovision person either, but I don't want them on the same day.

Just getting in the way of each other.

It's always the same.

Imagine that being a tradition.

Mad.

But other, other kind of random events around this day.

In and around 94, Reddit asks, Charlie, I can't think of many, if any, times the league and FA Cup champions have played each other after both have won their respective trophies.

So Liverpool and Christian Palace will meet on the final of their Premier League season and they ask, is this the dress rehearsal for the Community Shields?

Well, I mean, there aren't that many times when the FA Cup has been before the Premier League has finished.

So there's a decent chance, because that's a pretty modern phenomenon, isn't it?

So there is a decent chance this has never happened.

I know.

Are they going to give each other a Guard of Honor?

Could you give a simultaneous Guard of Honour?

It's like snaking in and out of each other.

I mean, what's it going to be called?

Like the Hangover Classico or the

Come Down Classico?

That'd be good.

Yeah.

I did, of course, utter some forbidden words their day, which was FA Cup champions.

Crystal Palace have changed their social media bios to FA Cup champions.

I mean, you can forgive them, they've never won a trophy before, but what's going on?

What's wrong with me?

Why has champions become this thing?

Why isn't winners just fine?

Yeah, it just doesn't sound right.

FA Cup champions, that kicked it off.

FA Cup winners.

Yeah.

That's all you need.

It's jargon, it's changing.

I don't like it.

All right, that's the weekend matters taken care of.

We'll be back very shortly for part two.

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Oh, look at that!

That is wonderful!

Welcome back to Football Cliches.

This is the adjudication panel.

Now, you'll be familiar with Clyde Tilsley's commentator charts he sort of knocks up the commentator charts for your favourite game and you can have it framed on your wall and uh he's partnered with uh millwall and the press release for that said millwall football club has teamed up with infamous commentator clive tilsley to craft a commentary chart of the lions historic 2004 fa cup semi-final victory

what are they referring to do they what's gone on there though i mean either let let's rule out that they think he's a bit dodgy or something and they've and they've sort of wrote that book obviously Do they think infamous is cooler than famous?

My theory is they they think infamous means something like cult.

I think that's what they're going for with infamous.

That they mean he's not like the, you know, a sort of household name, but he's well liked and he's, you know, so he's not quite famous.

But yeah, obviously it's a mad word to use to describe.

Just asking him what he would have got infamy for.

Are there any infamous commentators?

I mean, yeah, Richard Keyes, Andy Gray.

Wow.

All co-comms and pundits, but that's fine.

Yeah, main commentator, yeah.

Well, Keys, he was a main commentator, wasn't he?

Yeah, of course he was, yeah.

Yeah, poor old Cly.

First, he's having his intellectual property stolen by the wider world, and now he's been called infamous.

Terrible stuff.

Anyway, time for footballers' names in things.

Lovely trio for you.

First one comes from Purple Bobbin Toaster on Reddit.

This is someone streaming themselves playing Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2.

I was legitimately slaying out this guy, of course, dude.

Jeff Shreves, it was the guy that was in first place, too.

He just knew where I was, apparently, and had to hunt me down and kill me.

That's what he's doing with his time now, bro.

Amazing if he turned out to be a really, really good Call of Duty player online, like top 10 in the world.

I can imagine him being really abrasive and kind of, you know, sort of negging his rivals on it.

Taking out Bradislav Avadovich nowhere.

Oh, yeah.

But yeah, Jeff Shreves.

Not as jarring in an American accent as as I might have thought, but I think Jeff Shreves sort of works with a J, just to ruin it slightly.

Okay, yeah, yeah, okay.

Jefferson Shreves.

Next up, now, following on from Northumbria Police's PC Burini the other day, someone got in touch with this great double header of famously named policemen.

AWP83 says there's in Northumbria Police, again, there's a DC Alan Shearer.

So right part of the world as well.

So that's class.

But blown out of the water by this one.

I don't know if there's still a Scottish policeman, but they used to be in the mid-2000s.

PC Juan Raquelme.

Wow, Constable Juan Rikelme in a news story about Sevilla fans going to Glasgow for the UEFA Cup final in 2007, and he was sort of advising how to, because he was born in Spain, so he was advising them how to behave in and around Glasgow, just sort of operated in his own sort of way, you know.

Whereas, whereas DC Alan Shearer holds the records for arrest, of course, up in that

gets those 16 in 1988, etc.

Right, number three, this came from David Williams, who has directed me to the Wikipedia page for Irish band The Cranberries.

The Cranberries were an Irish rock band formed in Limerick in 1989.

The band was composed of lead singer and guitarist Laura's A'Riordan, guitarist Noel Hogan, bassist Mike Hogan, and drummer Fergal Lawler.

A'Rearden replaced founding member Niall Quinn in 1990.

Presumably as he went off to the World Cup.

I don't know.

Quinny.

Fantastic.

But here's a little twist on this: a bonus one for you.

Here's the football cliché's title sequence in things.

It came from DR2128 on Reddit, and it's Daniel Mann on Sky Sports Commentary as Sheffield United look to finish the job against Bristol City in their playoff semi-final second leg.

Not necessarily complacency, just not as sharp as they normally are.

You do wonder, don't you?

I mean, you can drum it into players as

much as you like.

DR2128 says, Charlie, I'm absolutely convinced that the commentator has just realised mid-sentence that he's about to emulate Big Rom's play with all your silly machines as much as you like.

I like that.

Beat for beat and pulled out of the last.

I mean, it does feel like someone who listens to the pod and goes, oh, no, that's going to sound really similar.

Yeah,

he recognises where it's going, but he

can't fully stop himself.

It's too far in.

I just think that's so embedded in my brain.

It's like as much as you like.

So if anyone would ever say that to me in real life i'm gonna be in trouble on the on the subject of playoff commentary i've been watching a lot of the playoffs the last few days voting back up on what for what for sudden you find a victory dodge really and um i was watching charlton the second leg of charlton and wickham and charlton uh scored in the second half and the commentator said and that's why they call him the sniffer dog

And not only was it, I sort of was like, oh, that's a a bit weird, but I didn't think too much of it.

And then my girlfriend was sitting next to me, sort of not really watching, but she was doing something else.

But she heard it.

She went, do they call him the sniffer dog?

I was like, well, I don't know, really.

And then he followed it up by saying, right place at the right time.

I just thought, is that what they're known for?

Being in the right place at the right time?

Or I'd want them to be more thorough.

Like, that suggests a kind of level of opportunism.

Yeah.

Like, if I had a sniffer dog, I'd sort of be like, well, I just, I don't want them to really miss things, but not in a just like, oh, he happened.

Oh, well done.

Well done.

Well done, boy.

You just popped up in the right place.

I mean, like,

no, you're thorough.

You do a good, you've got a good process and good things happen as a result.

Or maybe it's seen, maybe it's one of those, you know, like a Gary Lineker, like, you think I just popped up in the right place at the right time, but actually, that's because I've been making so many, you know, runs every, and that's saying the sniffer dogs.

You're always sniffing around.

Exactly.

Sniff enough bags, you'll get one eventually.

Exactly.

It's pure numbers for sniffer dogs.

One in off his backside, which is what dogs do actually now i think about it um now um speaking of that semi-final second leg of the playoffs the yorkshire post stuart rayner um tweeted this update gustavo hama substituted and presumably about to be buried in cotton wool until may the 24th charlie what a fate

buried in cotton wool too much cotton wooling i think yeah the the start of a crime thriller he was buried in cotton wool by this yeah this six adisted serial killer absolutely yeah that's um would you say that's excessive um measures, Dave?

Yeah, a little bit too much.

Yeah, a bit beyond wrapping.

Suffocating.

Yeah.

Um, now, I love this clip.

I love it.

Uh, we're all familiar, I think, with the TikTok AI voiceover.

It's usually kind of this sort of vaguely friendly sounding American lady on these AI, but it is very stilted.

Uh, but sometimes it doesn't really fit.

This came from Harvester Stallone.

Here is an advert for an evening with Matt Letissier next month.

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I'm sorry, that last bit is insane.

And the music as well.

How many evenings does he do?

A lot, I think.

Increasingly so.

Are they well attended?

I mean, is his stand,

how effective is his standing with Saints fans?

Well, I can give you some insight into this.

I think there are three tiers of tickets for this.

Like, there's a VIP one where you get, you can sit right at the front, you'll get an exclusive kind of after-show meet and greet with Letitier himself, and you get a signed photo,

you know, taken with him.

The second tier is that you, is that you get the opportunity to buy the photo, but you're still sat in a nice place.

And then the third tier is standing room only,

and you don't get any of the perks, really.

But there's only 30 of those tickets in the third tier.

I think these things are like it's a volume business.

They do quite a lot of them to not massive venues.

It's not like he's doing a sold-out show at the playoffs.

It's not like cliché's live, is it?

Let's not get ahead of ourselves in that respect.

Next up, this came from Sam Keen, and it's a new contender for the the most delayed away fans goal celebration of the season as Raul Jimenez puts Fulham ahead against Brentford at the G-Tech.

Skipping and jinking his way forward, manages to get the cross in again.

He's done well and Jimenez with a header is

front.

It's Raul Jimenez.

Yeah, I spoke to someone who was in the Fulhammen because I was curious to understand sort of what had happened and whether this was an illusion.

And he said, no, he had no idea.

This is Matt Roberts, fellow podcastman tennis podcast presenter um yeah he said he had no idea that it had gone in and i sort of asked why that was he said there was no net ripple um because the keeper got such a big hand to it and it went under him saw the keeper touch it and assumed it had been saved and then because raul fell over when he headed it he didn't celebrate straight away either so i guess that sort of combination of factors from the other end because watching it it's confusing as to why that was so why it took so long because it looks you know fairly obvious so the keeper got a glove on it dave stunned the ball a little bit, and it kind of spam back behind him.

And then obviously he fell down, so the ball would have been invisible behind him.

So he would have been obscuring it.

So most of the fans from that distance probably would have thought he was just fallen on the ball and it was a save.

So that probably explains why it was 4.59 seconds, which I'm confident is a Premier League record, albeit falling short of the 6.16 seconds for Yeovil fans at Solihall Moors the other week.

I think that's the common denominator in all of these cases.

It's often when the ball doesn't ripple the net, doesn't get smashed in, it trickles over the line in some respects, which means that you don't have that visual cue and you have to sort of look at the players.

Are they running away?

And then maybe looking at the linesman or whatever, and

you're not sure.

Yeah, because the flip side of that, because that's the first thing you look for, isn't it?

The net, and that's why you get the flip side of it.

It hits the side netting, and the crowd cheer, and then the home fans get to weigh them because, oh, and some of the crowd thought that had gone in.

I'm starting to think some people must be listening to this, Dave, and thinking, are they just completely overdoing their disbelief here?

How can they not work out that some people might not know the ball's gone in?

Well, that's just, it isn't.

I mean, you're looking at it and it is bizarre.

So that's just how it is.

People should be relying on the net bulgage, really, should they?

But then I think that is the thing.

The second thing is the player reaction.

Yeah.

And if you're not getting that either, then there's, I guess, there's not loads to go on.

Yeah, true.

Next up, a report that Wigan, Luton, and Redding are among a number of teams chasing Ross County hitman Ronan Hale.

Hale, 26, scored his 15th goal of the season with a crucial equaliser against Dundee on Wednesday night to keep alive Ross County's hopes of staying up.

Graham Dunn says, Charlie, any thoughts on how many goals constitutes a hitman?

Maybe I'm old school, but I don't want to see 20.

Is this dictated primarily by the number of goals they've scored in an individual season?

Should they be defined by their tally for a single season?

No, I think not.

I don't think that's like a hitman, you know, like Jamie Vardy will, I think, you know, will be a hitman, has been a hitman.

You know, this season's output doesn't really affect that too much.

As long as this guy has some pedigree, some, you know, proper goal scoring pedigree and is has got more than that previously i think you retain the hitman status absolutely but this is multifaceted obviously dave i mean if it was just about goals you could call muhammad salah a hitman and you definitely can't like it's it's got to be a proper number nine an off the shoulder or a poacher at least it's a specialist thing it's a surgical clinical player i think is but you think it's you think it's primarily stylistic maybe not primarily but i think it plays into it quite nicely who's who's the ultimate hitman for you kira was a hitman yeah i was thinking sheer's a hitman fowler i think robbie fowler was a hitman fowler was a hitman owen fowler yeah i like fowler owen was definitely less hitman-y i feel there's got to be something substantial about you physically but not being absolutely gargantuan well would i mean thinking of like monday players someone like gyokoresh i think would be described as a hitman harland would be a hitman i mean harland should be a hitman he's big and scary and scores loads of goals yeah

is he a hitman hitman?

I think you need to be both prolific.

I mean, maybe, yeah, maybe.

But there does need to be something a bit scary about you, something, you know, quite aggressive about the way you play.

Like, Vardy is a, I think he's a proper hitman.

But hitmen are not known for being big, imposing figures.

They blend in to the background.

They then get their business done.

They just pop up when they need to.

They talk about their business quietly.

Yeah, whisper it quietly.

But I'm a hitman.

Yeah,

nothing really takes precedence here.

You do have to score regularly, but you're not defined by the actual number of goals you score.

So, could you be a 15-goal a season hitman?

I think it's

these days.

I think

15 isn't, you know, the 20 goal, the 20-goal a season thing is less of a thing, isn't it?

These days, yeah.

I mean, assuming this 15 goals was all comps for Ronan Hale, in which case it does dilute matters.

But I don't know.

If he is the number nine for Ross County, I suppose so.

But gonna need a few more goals than that, Ronan.

Right, we'll take a quick break.

We'll be back very shortly.

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Oh, look at that!

That is wonderful!

Welcome back to Football Clichés.

This came from listener Charlie.

Here is Nathan Aspinall after he took Premier League darts on it in Aberdeen to put him in the play-off positions on course for the final at the O2 at the expense of Michael Van Gerwen.

Nathan, congratulations, what a night it has been.

You have got two hands, almost two hands in the O2.

Just sum up what are the emotions like after a roller coaster.

Does that work in any way?

Was he saying it because it was darts?

Otherwise, that's absolutely mad.

Yeah, it must have been, but even so, yeah, do you even...

Nobody said two-handed darting.

Exactly.

Yeah, you're only using one hand anyway.

I mean, maybe there could be a two-handed data.

You know, like these curiosities in tennis, Charlie, when you have a two-handed forehand.

Yeah, it's the rules the two-handed the two-handed data the moniker sellers of darts it worked

i don't think it would be terrible but i'm trying to work out what's happening he's either he's sort of accidentally moulded together one foot in the final and two hands on the trophy or he's tried to make one foot in the final dartsy i can't figure out what's going on you'd only have one foot of the okie as well even that doesn't really help you that's right uh

yeah doesn't work no

all right here's a strange for you.

MT employee 6601 on Reddit, Dave, um, has wants to take issue with the phrase, and still we play on, which commentators say as injury time goes on and on past its allotted limit.

Uh, they say Bill Leslie used this phrase 20 seconds after the minimum 11 minutes of additional had elapsed in West Ham's game with Nottingham Forest at the London Stadium.

I instinctively felt like it went early.

My perception is that the commentator should wait for the clock to go at least a minute over the allotted minimum time.

It also probably requires that the team defending clears the ball after a little spell of pressure, and everyone assumes the ref will blow, but they don't.

Going 20 seconds over when the additional time is 11 minutes doesn't justify the use, in my view.

There's clearly going to be stoppages in the 11 minutes that mean the ref ends up playing longer than 20 extra seconds.

Maybe I'm overthinking it.

But I think there is a very, I think, irrespective of the times,

once you're over, there is a very, very, there's just a moment in which it feels right to say it.

And that moment is the team that are chasing a goal have

got a goal kick and either launch the goal kick, and in that moment, the final whistle doesn't come.

So, you can reflect on the fact that and still we play, or they take it short and they're attacking.

The defender is bringing the ball forward with acres of space in front of him because everyone stepped off on it, uh, stepped off from him, and that just feels right.

Like, that we are kind of all thinking it, even if we know, of course, there's still time because we know there's been a stoppage, but it just feels right, and the crowd make a noise that reflects that as well.

Yesterday, in the Arsenal Newcastle game, this was a good situation.

I can't remember if the commentator said, and still we play, but it did feel like inexplicably went way over the minimum added time.

I was watching it and thinking,

why are we still going here?

They were like three minutes over, and I couldn't remember any obvious stoppage.

And there were so many moments in that passage of play where the ball went out of play, or there was a free kick awarded.

There were loads of moments where the referee could have blown up, and then at the end, there was a big 22-man melee.

But yeah,

it was a very similar situation i think so i mean i think we could get to a threshold situation here charlie if if 20 seconds for an 11 minutes is too short a time to say and still we play on why not apply like a 10 threshold so you know so that factors in any extra stockages but also once you factor in the rhythm of play as you suggest once you get to that moment after the threshold that's when you're allowed to say it yeah you could do that i just think there there is a there is a new point you need to disagree because i really wanted to know what you're going to come back with.

I think we all accept it that there are some times where it just feels right, even if the maps don't quite have it.

It's a vibe.

Yeah, it really taps into the

defending team's paranoia as well.

So it's an important job.

I'd say Bill Leslie hasn't trampled all over the tradition there.

I think he's all right.

Not for me to be a referee conspiracy theorist at all.

But when I'm watching the game in those moments, and I'm a neutral, say, I've not got any skin in the game, there's always a part of me that enjoys the fact that allowing myself to think that maybe the referee is just going I might just just let just see if they score on this last this last passage of play.

You see them look at their watch as well Charlie is that I always think the watch check should be telling it should be like time is about to run out not time is about to run out in two minutes time.

I think that should be used very very sort of carefully that move people see it people want to know what's going on.

Yeah yeah I think that's when they award a corner you say they've gone three minutes over and I think this happened yesterday that they award a corner and you just think oh god they could score they could score here I bet in the back of the mind of the refs they're going well or maybe it's more like oh I should have blown but I haven't oh but now there's a corner oh god I'll but let them take it but I can't blow when the ball's in the air so oh no I mean if we were being if we were being proper serious about it it is mad that it isn't kind of properly kind of accounted for this situation like corners will always be allowed a corner will always be allowed at the end a referee will never blow before a corner you know even though it's quite time-consuming to set up for a corner, it's still going to be allowed to happen.

But did you, I found it really funny yesterday.

It was the only time in that Arsenal Newcastle game, Dave references.

I've never seen this before where they basically were doing like this long VAR check for sort of anything.

Yeah.

You know, when it was that sort of fracker?

And it, yeah, it really did feel like everyone collectively just couldn't be asked anymore.

It was like...

And he literally, because I've never seen, it wasn't even like, oh no, it's a free kick.

Go on, goalkeeper, go and boot the ball and then I'll blow it.

It just blew straight away.

And it was like, everyone was like, it's a dead get.

Just, can we just end it?

Do we need to keep checking?

Like, what are you checking for?

You're not going to find anything.

Let's just call it.

Games have been.

It's a terrible weekend for VAR delay merchants.

Yeah.

You're right, Adam.

You say that the corner's always going to be allowed, and it might feel like that, but actually, I can remember, you can remember so many times when a referee has blown as the ball's gone out for a corner, and the players are always like, Ref,

let's have the corner.

But Ref's like, well, no,

it's an easy one to explain.

I'll give you that.

Yeah.

No, sorry, no, you can't.

And then they sort of, after about 10 seconds of remonstrating, they're like, oh, well, I suppose.

Right, I want to end with this.

It's the ongoing series on the Premier League's YouTube page called Footy Triv.

Now, let's look past the abbreviation.

It's completely unnecessary.

And their latest edition features current Premier League players trying to name Premier League players through the alphabet.

So from A to Z using the surnames.

I was blown away by the whole video, really, Charlie, about just how little knowledge Premier League players have of other Premier League players, past and present.

Just couldn't, they were struggling to name players beginning with a letter.

Some of them were naming themselves, which is a disgrace, by the way.

But the star of this show,

players from across the Premier League, the star of the show was undoubtedly Harry Winks.

Here he is as they get to P.

P.

Mine's gone blank.

P

PK.

Proud of that one.

Yeah.

Not saying second alright.

Pope.

I'll take him.

Pereira.

Pulisic.

No, they are Pulisic.

Barma.

Paul Pogbach.

I didn't know a Pogbach.

Pequata.

Linvoy Primus.

I'm going to be the most random on that one.

Great stuff, Harry Winks.

That's the sort.

That is the sort of name I want a classy operator to pull out of nowhere.

Linvoy Primus.

I mean, oh, that's nice.

That tells me that Harry Winks could hold his own in happy hunting grounds.

Yeah, it really does.

Get him on clichés.

Harry Winks is MHD coming up soon.

I really enjoy that.

Anybody who cites Linvoy Primus in a game like that, but yeah, putting the others to shame.

He's a good talker.

Yeah, good stuff.

As were you.

Won't onto you Charlie Ekoshare.

Thank you.

Thanks to you, Dave Walker.

Thank you.

Thanks to everyone for listening.

We'll be back on Thursday.

See you then.

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.

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