Manchester City and Arsenal crash out of Champions League – Football Weekly Extra

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Manchester City and Arsenal out of the Champions League.

The holders beaten on penalties that the Eti had never right off rail Madrid.

They defended stoically and Vinicius and Rodrigo, they were always dangerous.

By the end, Bellingham and Co.

could barely walk, but they got it to penalties.

And Antonio Rudiger, immense in both legs, hit one in off the post, unstoppable.

In Bavaria, Eric Dyer, man of the match, it was a ferocious header from Josh Kimmich that separated the sides.

And Bayern were the better team.

Arsenal just never quite got going.

They looked tired.

Their best players didn't quite deliver.

A really disappointing week for them.

And let's not start on the co-efficient.

Also today, can Liverpool or West Ham turn things around in the Europa League?

There's an FA Cup semi-final preview.

Come on, Coventry.

Some big games in the Premier League to look forward to.

People using the pod to talk to their relatives.

Your questions.

And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Lars Sivitson, welcome.

Good morning, Max.

Hello, Barry Glendenning.

Happy birthday, Max.

Make it count.

Oh, that's very kind of you.

45 today,

and I spent quite a lot of it with Mark Bosnich.

And I suspect as a child, I was saying to producer Joel before, I wouldn't wouldn't have expected to spend most of my birthday with Mark Bosnich, but it was lovely.

So there we are.

Nikki Bandini, welcome.

Happy birthday, Max.

Thank you so much.

And hello, Sid Lowe.

Good morning, Max.

Was that your childhood dream to one day spend your birthday with Bosnic?

Well, absolutely.

I mean, I was sort of thinking at five, it was...

Joel and I were discussing it before, saying, is 45 the most likely birthday?

Like everyone has a birthday where they are most likely to spend it with Mark Bosnich compared to all their other birthdays.

Is 45 that birthday?

I don't know.

It seemed unlikely at seven, I'll be honest.

I don't know.

I reckon if you do it statistically,

how many people have spent a birthday with Mark Bosnich?

True.

Good question.

I reckon that surely, surely the sweet spot is kind of between five and 15, and it's his classmates, right?

That's a lot of people spending their birthdays with Mark Bosnich.

You say that, but what about the football teams he was at?

Because when you're at a football team, you've got the whole squad are going to be there every day, you've got all the staff you're going to go through every day.

But he was a goalkeeper, so it was mostly training with just a couple of other people, not with the whole tree.

So Nigel Spink must have had millions of birthdays

with Mark Bosnich.

Anyway, if you've ever spent your birthday with Mark Bosnich or any other Australian, we'll open up to Australian goalkeepers.

Football weekly, yeah, Mark Schwarzer, John Filan, will take them all.

Football Weekly at theguardian.com.

Anyway, perhaps more importantly, Charlie asks, Are we the farmers?

So City and Arsenal out of the Champions League.

It was one apiece at the Etihad and then Real Madrid won on penalties.

That's a fascinating game, Sid, wasn't it?

City had all the ball, especially in the second half, 32 shots to eight, 17 corners to one.

There was one moment where every player was in the Real Madrid box.

But you always felt that Real Madrid were in it.

Yeah, I don't know if I truly always felt that because of watching the game or because it was Real Madrid.

And this is the problem with the analysis.

You can kind of be as rational as you want, but it's Real Madrid.

So forget all the rationalness.

I must admit, and you know this, Max, as I messaged you yesterday during the game, in the first half, I didn't like City at all.

I thought they were, they kept on kind of reaching a point where they encountered a line of defenders and turning around and going back.

They seemed to not have the nerve to genuinely go at Real Madrid, at least to take risks around the edge of the area.

And it was kind of frustrating to watch.

I found it amazing as well.

And obviously, look, I say this as someone who's not watching City as often as you, Lots.

There was kind of, for me, there was almost a bit more of a sense of discovery of it, really, than perhaps there is for you.

I was amazed at how bad a clearly very, very good footballer manages to look.

And obviously that being Haaland, who managed to look like he's just not a footballer at all for a lot of the game.

But then in the second half, yeah, it was an act of resistance and somehow finding a way through.

I've suggested this theory, I think, to you before, that you look at Real Madrid and you look at the sort of the absurd nature of the way that they won the European Couple a couple of years ago.

And of course, look, let's not pretend otherwise.

You can look at it and you can say, my God, they're incredibly lucky.

But when it keeps on happening,

you sort of feel like luck isn't much of

an explanation, although admittedly, it definitely plays a part.

And I think the theory that

I've floated to you before is that Real Madrid have this amazing combination, I think, of a coexistence of a

a really powerful superiority complex, a really powerful sense of their own importance and their own talent and how good they are, but also that comes with it, which is, I suppose, an arrogance.

But what comes with it is what I think is, and I know this doesn't always fit with the image of Real Madrid, an extraordinary humility, at least in the Champions League, that sort of says, yeah, we know we're Real Madrid.

And so we know at some point we'll find a way through.

But we kind of accept the fact, which a big team maybe shouldn't, that you might, put bluntly, piss on us for quite a lot of the game.

And it won't sink us.

I think a lot of teams kind of get in that position.

They think, think, you know, we can't deal with this.

And it shouldn't be like this.

And this other team shouldn't be so much on top of us.

But Real Madrid, I suppose through experience, I suppose through just the importance of what the European Cup is, I guess as well.

But there's a kind of a collective sort of solidarity about them that doesn't fit with that other part.

But I think those two contradictory ideas kind of come together with them in the European Cup.

I think that I've definitely brought this up on the podcast before, the sort of Italian concept of strama dizzare, the being able to take the drama out of a situation, to take the pressure off people.

I think that's one of the things that

Angelotti does extraordinarily well.

It's almost his hallmark for me, but it was interesting at the end of the game to hear Jude Bellingham articulate it in a sort of way that he did on his post-game interview with TNT.

He was saying that before the game, he looked over and saw Angelotti was yawning and he went over and was sort of saying, is this not a big enough moment for you or whatever?

And Angelotti's going, well, you have to excite me on the pitch.

I do think,

all jokes aside, I do think think Ancelotti does that.

Angelotti makes it feel like it's not a big deal to be here winning these games over and over again.

He is, from that point of view, he is extraordinary.

It's very interesting.

He did this last year, Anchilotti.

I think it was before, it might have been before the city game.

And then he did it again before the first leg of the city game this year.

He was asked about the pressure and he talks about...

He talks about how he really struggles.

He says, you know,

in the hours before the game, my heart races, I'm sweating.

I feel really, really nervous.

I'm going through this.

And yet on the the outside, of course, as you say, Nikki, the whole thing is about it's not like that.

There's a normality to it all.

And I think what Madrid have managed to do for a huge club is normalize that idea.

And the Spaniards use this word, they use suffering all the time.

And it's creeping into English language a little bit, not at least because people like me can't find an adequate translation for it.

But they use this idea of suffering all the time.

And they talk a lot about, we know we're going to have to suffer.

We know we're going to be under pressure.

We know there's going to be times when, frankly, the other team isn't as good as us.

But they, they kind of, I wouldn't go so far as to say they embrace it.

I'm not sure they're actually enjoying it.

But there is a willingness to say, okay, all right, well, they will be better than us, even though we're Real Madrid.

I was just trying to think if Pep Guardiola has ever yawned

in his life.

I think it's entirely possible that he's gone through his entire sort of existence on Earth without ever dropping a yawn.

It's very hard to visit.

It's just incredibly hard to visualize.

I certainly don't think he was yawning

before or during, or indeed after the game yesterday.

But

it is maybe a point worth making, though it feels like a point that's been made before, is that all these things we're saying about

Man City, all the things we're saying about Real Madrid, we would not be saying if Man City had scored two more penalties.

Exactly.

So it's kind of a little bit a wheel of media reaction that we're kind of part of, but it's kind of hard to escape.

But it's self-perpetuating.

This is why I start with, you know, you genuinely do.

And I know

it's not an explanation that we like.

You do need to look at Fortune and those moments when it it turned and it needn't have turned.

And had it gone, you know,

City Bernardo Silver doesn't fall on his knees when that ball drops to him by the far post, or De Bruyne doesn't put that shot over, or Lunin doesn't make two or three.

I mean, Looney making saves is maybe not fair because that's what Goldie's there for, and that's part of it.

But there are those moments, and you think back on that extraordinary Champions League run against City, against Chelsea, against PSG, and the cock-up from Donnaruma and things like that, or what Carrias did in the final against them.

And all of these things, there is a degree of luck.

And you're right, then the narrative and the analysis becomes different.

But when it kind of keeps happening,

it's very difficult not to be dragged into a slightly unsatisfying kind of an analytical approach, which is to say there's something mystical about Madrid.

And there sort of is, and I think there is a belief there.

But as I say, that's why I offer up this theory of this kind of humility that says, we've got so many good players that at some point will take a chance, but we recognize somehow, despite the apparent arrogance that comes with that, that we're not going to be as good as the other team.

And we don't crumble with that.

We sort of accept that.

And we know that if we just hold on to the game, at some point, it might happen, which is why it seems to me,

you know, they are,

sort of talked about this before, they are the kind of the T1000 hanging on your back bumper that just refuses to bloody die.

And that's why if you are going to beat them, you've got to batter them.

Yeah.

You know, you've got to beat them five and they're going to probably not going through.

Barry, those penalties, I mean, there were so many parts of that penalties due to that.

One, Rudiger, I thought he is going to blast this, but it was, it was unlike unstoppable then you've got edison taking this brilliant penalty you've got the bernardo penalty which was understandable but also hilarious it was just that when those players were on their knees especially the real madrid players it's just incredible entertainment i thought um

yeah

you've just described the whole penalty shoot

um

uh

so i'm not sure where to go with that uh it was tense and you well you kind of knew Rael Madrid would win it.

It's easy to say with the benefit of hindsight.

People have suggested Bernardo Silva may have been put off by the fact that there was no ball because somebody in the crowd was holding on to it and took a while to throw it back.

I don't really buy that.

Bernardo Silva is

long enough in the two not to be phased by something like that.

you know this i just thought this was a brilliant

brilliant defensive performance from Rael.

And that's a really important part of the game.

Danny Carval was fantastic.

He got a yellow card quite early, but he still had a, you know, kept Grealish in a very tight rein.

He's knackered.

Then Jeremy Doku comes on.

He keeps him in a tight rein.

Although it was noticeable that Feli Valverde was giving him a dig out at that stage, helping him.

He eventually went down with cramp and got, you know, the stretchy footy thing from a couple of players or his teammates and from the physios, was helped back to his feet and just collapsed back on the ground again.

He was done, he was absolutely done.

It was like someone just turned him off, wasn't it?

Someone just turned Danny Carrick.

Rudiger was immense as well,

despite the little you know, his contribution to the city goal.

For Lamendi, didn't have a huge amount to do, but he was grand.

I thought Braille were astonishing in defence, nacho as well.

And

for all City's dominance, they didn't have a huge amount to show for it.

They scored a goal, they hit the woodwork,

and that Kevin De Bruyne missed when he got in the end of a pullback.

And

99 times out of 100, he's burying that, but he didn't on this occasion.

I think that the Bernardo Silver thing is a really interesting sort of question because we'll never know, right?

We'll never know if it impacted him.

He certainly looked hurried to get the ball.

He looked frustrated.

And I do think when it comes to those moments,

you'll never unpick it because you'll never get to see what would have happened if he had just been given the ball right away and if Lunin hadn't had the extra moment to think about it.

It was really interesting in the penalty shootout.

They picked us out again on TNT.

But

the penalty after

that...

when it's Kovacic, you can see Madrid's players all at halfway, like already pointing which way he's going to go.

Lunin knows which way he's going to go and he completely calls it.

And so there is an element of studying all these things.

And I do think what I simultaneously agree

to a big extent with Lars, that we build these narratives after the effect based on results and what happens, I also think it really isn't just accidents when teams win penalty shootouts.

I think it really is also worth sort of highlighting that part of the reason Madrid win this game is because Jude Bellingham, and I know we're English and

you can overhype it, but is a ridiculously talented footballer who does extraordinary control to create that situation from which Rodrigo scores the first goal, who takes his penalty after seeing Modric miss.

And, you know, Modric missing first felt like, what the hell?

Like, Modric is going to miss.

That's the moment that nobody expects.

So

there is still tangible reasons why it happens.

And I think you can say that while also saying, look, some of City's performances were extraordinary.

I thought Kevin De Bruyne was a monster in that game.

I thought he was winning the ball, carrying it forward, having his chances.

There were performances for City that were incredible, but Madrid have got players who deliver in these moments and that really isn't an accident there's there's an analytical thing on the on the penalties which I think is really interesting you're talking about the banana silver thing Lunin said after the game that he'd had a discussion and they they planned this in advance and he'd had a discussion with with Jopis who's the goalkeeper coach at Real Madrid and they had agreed that on one of the penalties he would not dive because someone always goes down to the middle.

And that the decision that they had to make was which one

and which one you do it on and they chose the first one so this wasn't about a player it was about a moment they chose this one and because what the the the the the implication here was was was a couple of things obviously number one the fundamental thing is if someone goes down the middle and you stay in the middle you save it but it's more than that it's that if you save the penalty down the middle it has a kind of a psychological impact because it makes the player look stupid and it also has an impact on the other penalties because in in a way what you're doing by saving that one down the middle is you're ensuring that no one else goes down the middle, no one else dares to anymore go down the middle.

I was really struck by this because I'd had a conversation about this before the Coppel Rey final.

I went to see Dominic Grief, who's the goalkeeper at Mallorca,

and he'd been, this is a goalkeeper who basically hasn't played in three years because in the Coppel Le Rey they tend to let the second choice goalkeeper play the Coppel Rey.

And he made two saves in the shootout and the semifinal against Ralph Sophia.

And we talked a little bit about he made one of the saves down the middle.

And this actually didn't get in the final interview

that was published by The Guardian, obviously.

But I asked him, well, why don't goalkeepers stay in the middle more often?

And I think this in the context of last night is really interesting.

So I've literally just brought it up so I can tell you exactly what we said.

He said, I think one of the reasons is that it feels like you didn't try if you stay in the middle as a goalkeeper.

And he said, for me, it's not 50-50.

People always say it's 50-50, but there are three sides you can choose.

He said, but I think what happens, and actually, here he goes, the feeling I've got is actually, to be honest, most of the penalties I've saved in my life were in the middle, not to the side.

But I think if you don't go, it looks like you haven't tried.

And he said, so the one that he saved in the middle against Reyes Othiad, he says, I did dive, but I deliberately didn't dive very far.

I dived enough to be able to leave my legs in the middle.

And so I think what we had last night with Lunin, and so here we are talking about chance, and of course there's a degree of chance, but there was a conscious decision that says, that option that for some reason people don't take.

Yeah, it looks so ridiculous, doesn't it?

And let's then have an impact on everyone else.

And so loonin took the risk of standing there like a lemon and the ball going in the corner but instead had the impact of not only saving it but having a player go oops and all the other players think there's no way i'm going down the middle now yeah i mean it does look ridiculous but what you say is exactly right but ben littleton has written a book about penalties it is statistically the best place to put one is what is where bernardo silver put it you you are actually statistically more likely to score however counterintuitive that that feels large i wanted to um

i wanted to go back to the goal and Nikki brought it up, but just to talk a bit more about how Jude Bellingham took that ball out of the sky.

Because it's not just stone dead, it's like taking it away from a defender as well.

Yeah, no, it's very good.

And then he releases it

correctly.

And

I was actually having a long discussion with a friend of mine who's a very football savvy person about Jude Bellingham earlier in the afternoon and about how ridiculous he is as a player, how he is someone who has completely completely evolved and constantly reinvented himself and when he went to Real Madrid we saw him as basically a perfect number eight

who then goes and becomes a striker almost because he had to be because that's that's that's where they didn't they needed someone to fill in and and I guess you could say slightly facetiously that that his involvement is kind of something you'd see from a brilliant target man.

You know, the combination of sort of strength and the delicate touch.

And he is a ridiculous player.

He's a player with no weaknesses.

You could play him in any position.

You can put him at centre half.

It'd be fine.

You could play him as an attacking fullback.

Can I just interrupt you for one second here?

Just for one little second, because you just mentioned that idea of the target man.

I thought the difference, and again, I don't want this to look like I'm having a go at Haaland, but the difference in the capacity to play back to goal and hold the ball and bring others into play and not lose it between Haaland and Belling last night was really, really striking.

You know, this is supposedly part of a traditional number nine's role.

Bellingham did it a lot better than Haaland did.

Partly because obviously the amount of space around them and so on but i thought that was really striking yeah i i i'd say if you give harland the amount of space that bellingham yeah exactly that would have looked a little bit different yeah but that's not the strongest part of harland's game i would imagine i mean as our sort of harland expert like it is interesting yeah about his record in these big big games you know and and i don't know if i don't know if you know if if there is a if there is an issue there with him or not or it's just this is the way he plays so if he doesn't score there will always be this conversation i mean i i push back at it a little bit.

I mean, he quarterfinalist last season against Bayern Munich.

He scored home in a way.

I mean, I feel like a quarterfinal in the Champions League against Bayern Munich counts as a big game.

Sure, yeah.

The sort of flat track.

I did anticipate this.

We'd have some more

flat-track bully talk from Baz.

So he has, in this career, scored against Liverpool, Napoli, PSG, Bayern Munich, Sevilla, Leipzig, Leverkusen, United, Tottenham, Arsenal, and Chelsea.

He hasn't scored against Real Madrid.

That is true.

But most of the other big teams he's come up against, he has scored against.

I don't think there's much to that.

I honestly just think there's a combination of factors.

I think two things can be true at the same time.

He is clearly not having a great season.

Like, there's no doubt about that.

Anyone with eyes attached to their skull can tell that things aren't dropping for him the way they usually do.

You know, the numbers bared out.

And just in the way...

Things that used to come natural to him are not coming natural right now.

He's just kind of slightly mistiming things, slightly mistiming things.

and he's not looking comfortable he's not looking confident but it is also true that he's not being given the kind of servers he thrives on you know and and i i wonder if at one point the thing i worry about is that he gradually kind of stops making the runs he would usually do because he's so bored of like the man city players just not picking him out and and that it started sort of he's gone into a bit of a funk because why would i make that run i would usually make uh for the 10th time when i know rodri is going to play a short pass to Bernardo Silva anyway?

Like, there is an element of, I think he's becoming a little bit despondent from that.

So there's a, in the sort of, is he just bad or is he not getting service, I think both things can be true.

I think he is off by his standards, and I think he's also not being used very well, and it's kind of affecting him in a pretty big way, and it's bad news for City.

I don't think Erling Harland is a flat-track bully, right?

Just to be clear.

But it is a matter of fact that he has failed to deliver in a number of very key games that City have failed to win or lost this season against big teams.

There's no getting past that.

But I don't think they were playing to his strengths last night.

There was only one ball in behind for him to chase.

That almost led to a nacho-home goal.

He had to end up having to hook his own little poke towards his own goal off the line under pressure from Harland.

And Nikki said that Kevin De Bruyne was brilliant last night.

I disagree, actually.

I thought he was a bit off by his own very high standards.

City had 18 corners last night.

Kevin De Bruyne took most of them.

At pretty much every single one, he raised his right hand.

And apparently, that was the signal for Antonio Rudiger or Natural to run to the near post and head the ball clear, because that's where every single corner went.

Alan wasn't anywhere near the near post.

So I'm not really sure what the plan was there.

Was it someone to get a flick?

But, you know, at least, yeah, play to the guy's strengths.

Yeah, I was thinking, I mean, just to kind of carry on from there, I thought last night was an exaggerated version of that as well.

Because of the nature of Madrid being so, so deep, you're denying any space at all.

The point I was making about Bellingham and the difference between Bellingham and him is when Harlem was asked to play back to goal, it felt like the ball wasn't sticking very often.

Now, that's a really difficult thing to do, obviously, but it wasn't sticking.

But yesterday was kind of an exaggerated version of that.

And then, just to pick up what Baz was saying about De Bruyne, then it's I think it's in the first off, I think it's two, maybe three times that De Bruyne is put in behind the defence on the right and chooses the wrong pullback as well, not just the corners.

By the way, from the corners, were they trying to shoot?

Because it felt that way.

It felt like they were trying to push Loon in right back under his bar on the corners, because every single one, well, not every single one, but of the 18, I reckon at least 13 were basically swung in right under the crossbar, trying to push the goalkeeper right back.

I would disagree with that.

I think it was most went to the near post, and maybe three or four were swung in.

And at some point during the second half, they started putting two men on Lunan because

they kind of realised, oh, this guy's got a touch of the Vicarios.

He doesn't like a ball dipping in.

But I thought the standard of corner taking, considering how many corners City had, and I know it's difficult to score from a corner, but I thought it was pretty dismal.

Folden took a few, but Kevin De Bruyne took most.

Yeah, I mean, there's so much of this game that we haven't even got into.

Like Karl Walker versus Vinicius is just such an amazing battle every time it happens.

Doku's impact was brilliant in this game.

And actually the story of Lunin is a really interesting one, Sid.

You know, I sort of probably leave on him.

He's the hero here, and he's a sub-keeper that virtually none of us had heard of,

you know, until...

well, I hadn't, until quite recently.

How long have we been talking?

We're, what are we, 20 minutes into the podcast?

And 24 minutes into the podcast, I believe it is.

And this is my first opportunity to point out that the hero of this Champions League tie was the Real Oviedo player, the guy who

being on Lona Real Oviedo.

I mean, this is, as you say, everything about Lunin.

So, Lunin is Realmedu's backup goalkeeper.

He's a backup goalkeeper who, yes, they believe is a good goalkeeper, but they don't believe it that deeply.

Because when Courtois gets injured at the very start of the season, they scramble and

they bring in Kepa.

And they bring in Kepa because they're not sure that Lunin can play all season.

So here's a backup goalkeeper who, when it comes to it, you don't want him to be backing up quarto or you think you don't.

And over the course of the season, a combination of Kepa not being particularly convincing, but also Lunin playing really well, bit by bit,

he's indisputed now.

And he, I still think, and, you know, this speaks a little bit to that corner thing.

Lunin is a goalkeeper who doesn't catch the ball very often.

And I think that might be part of that idea of trying to force him back all the time.

You know, maybe the ball gets dropped down, maybe it gets punched out, but he made a lot of saves.

He's very, very cold.

I don't know if you've seen the video of the celebration of the penalty.

So, of course, he's standing at the side of the penalty area when Rudiger scores.

Rudiger scores and runs off like a madman.

Everyone runs after Rudiger.

And Lunin just kind of strolls across the penalty area.

And there's actually a moment, I think it's Modric, is running

towards Rudiger and the big crowd of players going to Rudeger.

And he's sort of like he realises and he puts the brakes and goes, no, no, and stops and goes the other way to look for Lunin.

And I think there is a real sense that this is a guy, he's very, very quiet.

He's very, very disciplined, very, very determined.

But there was a doubt as to whether he was genuinely an elite goalkeeper.

And now he's had this

extraordinary moment in a season when, really and truly, he would have expected to play the Coppel Rey games and no more.

Really quick,

Max.

Sorry, just because there's two things we haven't mentioned, just the fact that Edison, the goalkeeper, took a brilliant penalty as well.

Like an actual goalkeeper scoring a brilliant penalty in the shootout.

So much happened in this game.

Yeah.

Kevin Pressman, of course, has nothing to worry about on that scale.

All right, cheers, Sid.

Thanks, mate.

Cheerio.

Bye-bye.

Sid, low out in Spain.

That'll do for part one.

Part two, we'll do Bayan's victory over Arsenal.

HiPod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So buy and won Arsenal Mill buying going through 3-2 on aggregate.

Nikki, how do you feel?

Well, I thought it was obviously a masterclass by Arsenal, taking revenge on Villa for the defeat at the weekend and punishing Tottenham as well by reducing the chance of England having the fifth chance.

No,

it was, I think in contrast to the city game, where I was just saying, even though it was one all, felt like it was a lot happened in those 120 minutes.

What was most frustrating about this game was it didn't feel like much happened in this game.

It felt like Arsenal...

in the second half in particular you were waiting and waiting and waiting for them to to realize that they were on the verge of going out the champions league and and to react to it and that moment didn't come and of course in reality that's a testament to Bayer Munich and how they played but it's also

hard to shake that question now of whether or not this is just how Arsenal finished seasons are under Arteta of course last season I think they won three of the last nine it was even worse than that in 21-22

are they running out of steam are certain players out of fuel at the end of the campaign so as a as a fan it's definitely a disappointing and and a bit here we go again feeling.

But of course, as a journalist, put that hat on, you have to see the other side of it, which is Bayern Munich, really

showing something to the world after all the way they've been written off and talked about for how they've struggled

in domestically to still be in a Champions League semifinal.

And I think probably, especially now that City are out, looking at it and thinking, well, maybe we can win this.

It felt to me, Barry, that...

And I think I said this yesterday, that Bayern were kind of liberated.

Like the league is gone.

That's kind of done.

Their pressure is done now.

Whereas Arsenal are still in the tumble-dryer to continue that analogy.

I don't know, I just thought it was a dismal performance from Arsenal, but really pathetic, and they're getting a very easy ride in what I've read about the game so far this morning

in various publications.

They were just too meek, too tentative.

If they played as well as we know they can, or anywhere near as well as we know they can, and lost, grant, take it on the chin, Bayern Munich are a good side.

They're not a great Bayern Munich side, but still a good side.

But they were nowhere near their best in either of these legs.

I think.

I don't know if it's fatigue at the end of a long season, an inferiority complex, is it nerves?

I don't know.

But Declan Wright was brought in to make the difference in games like this at huge expense.

And over two legs of this game, his contribution was pretty much zero.

And Giorgino, who I thought was Arsenal's best player by distance last night, he was taken off.

And once he left the pitch, they did nothing.

They won a shot after going behind.

And this is in a Champions League quarterfinal.

Now, I'm sure there'll be plenty of gooners.

I think I'm being far too harsh on their team, but I think I'm being entirely fair.

My first thought is

it seems like they've run out of steam because it reminded me of the second half against Villa in the sense that you you just sort of this is it you know this is a huge moment in the season and we've seen this team play so well as barry points out this season that you're just kind of expecting them to list to really make something happen and in this game as as in the second half against villa it was surprisingly meek and they just kind of wilted in a way that i think it's kind of inevitable that you ask questions about where they're at physically uh if they have the energy to produce those performances at this point in the season.

But I also wonder, and I can't believe I'm saying this because I'm typically the person who doesn't really believe in this, that this really matters.

But I wonder if like experience in these sort of situations comes into play because

even against Porto, Arsenal did not look as comfortable as they have done in the Premier League.

And they were having a great run in the Premier League when the Porto games came around.

And they looked very uncomfortable in those situations.

And maybe this sort of very intangible...

I don't like intangible things, Max.

I like things that you can put

stats and numbers and prove.

But this idea that they've been out of the Champions League.

Set yourself free, Lars.

Set yourself free.

Yeah, I mean, this is what, their first time in the Champions League in seven years, something like this.

They have a couple of players like Jorginho and Havertz who've played a fair few Champions League games elsewhere, but there's not a ton of experience with these sort of evenings in this group.

Whereas you can say what you want about this year's Bayern version.

There's a lot of guys who've been in this situation before.

I think, one, maybe that matters nights like this.

I think that might become a factor.

But the overriding sense is that they just look like they've run out of gas.

Philippe said this on Monday as mitigation for their poor second half showing against Villa, saying they're tired.

And he got pelters for.

You can't give Philippe Pelters.

That's not on, is it?

There are things that cross the line and giving Philippe Pelters.

Yeah, that does cross the line.

But, you know, everyone's tired.

Villair tired.

Villa have loads of players out injured.

You know, they've had a really busy season playing, you know, Sunday, Thursday.

We're all fucking tired.

I'm tired.

That's his tired.

I think, again, I think the theme of this podcast is that two things can be true at the same time.

I think that it's absolutely fair to be critical of them.

I think you should be critical of them.

It was a really disappointing performance.

I'm critical of them.

But I think you can also say that, yes, in the case of an individual player like Declan Rice, who has been so influential, Declan Rice looks knackered.

And Declan Rice is not playing at the level he was earlier this season.

And I do think that whether or not you think he should be knackered, whether or not you think that's

a flaw that you can identify in him and say he has not obviously prepared himself well enough, if you want to go down that argument, I'm not necessarily going to say you can't have that argument.

But I do think that it's still just objectively true that he's not playing as well as he was earlier this season.

And I think that it seems logical that that would be because he's played a lot of minutes.

Yeah, and actually, the interesting thing about that is it's so hard at the start of the season to rotate players out who are playing so well because you're winning games and the players want to play.

And you know, it's very hard to look at a season in a sort of planet in a, you know, you take each game as it comes.

You don't plan it as a 38, 58, whatever number of games you're playing season.

But you wonder if Arteta had rotated more earlier, maybe they wouldn't be in this position.

I don't know.

I think if I was a manager, and there's a frightening thought, first of all, I think I'd be really bad.

But I do think there's a case to be made for each of your players to sort of get just a week off

during the season.

Like, right, you, you're going on holiday 10 days, don't want to see it at the training ground, you're not playing the next two games, and then come back and, you know, hopefully you'll have freshened up and do that, you know, in sort of increments throughout the season so that everyone gets a rest, proper rest.

That's one of my rare footballing conspiracy theories is that I suspect a lot of them do.

I think they just call it niggles or he has a knock or something

to avoid saying that we just don't want to

give him some time off.

But I think Barry's idea of not just resting them, but just sending them away for a week.

I think that's a really good idea.

I really like that.

Just to bring it in, that's something that I remember Wesley Schneider talking about with Jose Mourinho at Inter.

Now, we don't give Mourinho a lot of praise these days, but he was talking about there being a point in that trouble winning season when Mourinho said, You're tired.

I don't want to see you for a week, basically, go on holiday.

And Schneider said, I came back ready to run through walls for him.

Like, I came back ready to give absolutely everything I had for him because he'd give me that break when he saw I was tired.

Yeah, I mean, it's like

football has had 20 days holiday.

They say, Hi, Gaffer, I've got three days to take, and I've got a day in lieu because I played Thursday and Sunday.

So you're opening it.

I can, if I do it over the Christmas bank holiday, I could get 10 days here.

Joe says, Will Eric Dyer being named man of the match after knocking Arsenal out of the Champions League be the highlight of Spurs season?

Thing is, Lars.

That is, for him,

what a testament to this guy who, you know, was totally out of the Spurs squad.

You know, like he was picking fullbacks at centre-back engine and has gone somewhere else.

And it's proof you can not fit in one system and fit in another.

He's keeping, what is he keeping Umakano, Uber Makano and Kim out of the side?

That's great for him.

Yeah, that's the thing that I find remarkable here is that he was brought in.

It seemed like Tokul wanted to play three at the back, and he was going to be like the guy in the middle.

And you think, well, he doesn't have to run so much there, and that'll be okay.

But no, here they're in the back four

with Kim and Upa McConnell on the bench and Eric Dyer starting.

And I just thought, I was looking at it ahead of the game, this is actually quite ridiculous.

Like, what's happening here?

But, but it's, it's, he played really well.

It's, uh, it's, it's, it's great to see.

Maybe more people, if they're having a bad time in their life, they should just move to Bavaria or something.

I don't know.

Maybe that's something about the seems to be the thing.

Didn't work for me.

I mean,

that brings us full circle back to the holiday point: is that, yes, the holiday could be healthy, but it really does depend on what you do on the holiday.

Really, I think.

Well, at least I'm not the only person now who's famously shacked themselves in Bavaria.

I've got the whole Arsenal squad to keep me company as well.

Barry, we were having a big debate about whether Fulkrug's header was a glancing header yesterday.

Nick says, surely that Kimmich goal is a bullet header.

Oh, yeah.

Absolutely tremendous, wasn't it?

Yeah, absolute bullet header.

Maybe you could argue because he had to come from so deep, it kind of takes the gloss off it.

It's like a sniper running near his target before shooting, but

rather than just being stationed on the top of a nearby tower.

But yeah, what a header.

I mean, that is unstoppable.

Would you say that

he crashed home a thumping header, I think is what we're going for with this report.

That works for me.

Tell me a little bit about Conrad Leimer, Lars, because I thought he was brilliant yesterday.

Well, he runs a lot.

He's one of those guys who I have heard him describe as a pressing machine.

He's one of those guys who just has completely limitless stamina.

Obviously, they got him

from one of the Red Bull teams from Leipzig.

He has the sort of Red Bull DNA all over him in terms of that he's incredibly athletic and runs and stuff.

He's filled in that fullback a few times as well, which is something he could do.

But yeah, I guess in a game where Arsenal lacked energy,

he probably stood out a bit because he's clearly a very, very energetic gentleman.

Nikki,

we've touched on this a bit already, but I think for Arsenal fans, it's like,

how do you think they get to the next step?

Is it about recruitment,

just getting a few more players at that level in?

Like, Arteta has clearly done an absolutely brilliant job with this team.

That doesn't mean he can take it to the next level, but you sort of think he deserves lots of time, you know, seasons and seasons to try and get there, right?

Yeah,

I think

you can't criticise the overall progress of the team, right?

As he said, and as has been said here, they haven't been in the Champions League for seven years.

So the fact that they're back there, the fact that they are competing in the title race, even if it looks like it's going to end up another empty-handed season, to start saying because it's gone sour at the end again that everything is terrible terrible would be incredibly, I don't know, short memories to act like that.

But yes, there are things missing.

I think that there's this general consensus that Arsenal still need

some sort of game changer up front, someone who can provide that spark in situations like last night where there isn't a spark, someone who can

score a goal perhaps out of nothing.

I think that

Most, more tangibly than that, there's definitely some feeling that a proper target man, someone who can occupy the box in that way would be a valuable asset to have.

I mean, Arsenal have spent a lot of money already getting to where they're at, but

those are probably the areas that

the team needs in terms of adding pieces to the squad.

Yeah, someone who can, I don't know, just give Arsenal more of a focal point.

It did feel like last night in the second half when you were looking for someone to do that thing.

Yes, talked already about certain players being tired, talked about.

Rice, but you could say the same things about someone like Pakayo Saka perhaps not having the influence on the game that you want him to.

And so is it just a a question of having more bodies in those spaces that can do those things?

But in terms of a player profile, the sort of thing that feels like it's missing from that attacker, a big target man who can also just stick the ball in the net from minimal touches sometimes, which is exactly what we've just been criticising Cities Haaland for being a player who doesn't do enough in the rest of the game.

But someone like that is...

what Arsenal are missing, I think, sometimes.

I think it's worth,

again, not to completely copy everything Nikki just said, but like before last season, Arsenal had been on a run of finishing fifth, sixth, fifth, eighth, eighth, and fifth again.

So, so, so turning it from that, I mean, that's kind of your, that's like Aston Villa, Everton, well, Everton 10 years ago.

With a run like that, and with Newcastle suddenly having all the money in the world, and you're starting to think, this sort of champion, we might not be back in here for a while.

Like, this could, we could be frozen out.

Are we still one of the big six?

I mean, what's happening here?

So, actually, turning that around, turning them into a credible title challenger two seasons in a row and getting them to the Champions League quarterfinal.

I've seen from a few comments that the pod has been accused of being anti-Arteta.

I think, even if they were disappointing yesterday, it's worth taking a beat to point out that he's done an incredible job.

James says, Can we have a moment's silence for the coefficient, of course?

So, the table now: Italy 18.428, Germany 17.642, and England 16.875.

By our reckoning.

If Levikusen win tonight, England can't catch Germany in the coefficient.

So terrible news for one of Spurs or Aston Villa.

Levikusen are 2-0 up.

They go to the London Stadium.

Liverpool go to Bergamo, where they are 3-0 down to Atalanta.

Benfica 2-1-up goes to Marseille and Roma 1-0 up on Milan.

We haven't really talked a lot, Nikki, about Atalanta's victory at Anfield.

It was sensational, and so many of their performances were brilliant that night.

Yeah, and it was a weird one because it was all at once, I would say, something that didn't shock me and did shock me.

Because obviously, anytime a team wins three now at Anfield, that's shocking.

That's not a thing you expect to see.

And I think that the reason that it really did shock me on top of that is Atalanta, who have been excellent at times this season, really haven't been lately.

They were coming into that game having lost to Fiorentina and the Coppitalia, a really damn scribble of a performance in that game.

They've lost a Cagliari in the league.

This team really felt like it was running out of steam, and perhaps it was running out of steam because they were saving all their energy for that night and knowing that Anfield was the one thing that was going to get everyone geared up.

I think it's also worth saying that Atalanta, they've been thumped by Liverpool at home before and I would not exclude Liverpool turning this tie around even from 3-0.

I think it's not the most likely scenario, but it's a possible scenario for sure still.

But Giampiero Gasparini is an extraordinary manager who will

probably never get that consideration amongst the very best because he stayed at Atalanta so long.

I think this is one of those things that's had a lot of social media conversation in the last week or two, a week or so, because of what happened at Anfield.

And I don't know if I need to rehash all of that because it's been said very well already elsewhere.

But he

he made his made a choice to stay at a club that that suits him and and that allows him to to work the way that he wants to work and the result of that to be a team with modest resources.

I haven't got it in front of me, but I think I've seen that their wage bill would be the 15th biggest wage bill if it was in the Premier League.

So we're not talking about a club that should expect to be in the quarterfinals of European competitions in the first place, let alone going to Anfield and a thumping team like Liverpool has consistently produced above its means while going through

and recycling its squad over and over again.

It's not even the same players that were there when they were in the Champions League quarterfinal before.

So yeah, he's an extraordinary manager doing an extraordinary job.

I guess very briefly,

that's very good.

It's nice nice to have an interesting, slightly idiosyncratic manager working at a club where he's happy and getting to work his way and producing good teams.

But is there still not a question of like he should have been at a bigger club at some point?

And I'm not, that sort of

three-day spell at inter doesn't really count.

Well, this is the thing which I think you see when even when I when I was tweeting about it, I saw some people coming back going, oh, he had his chance at a big club at inter and it didn't work out for him.

And yes, he had his chance at inter,

as you say, for all of about five minutes.

And yes, the results were very poor.

But he came into a club where he almost vocally wasn't backed by the owner Maratti, where you had, at the time,

Gasparini was openly ridiculed in the Italian press for wanting to play with a back three at a big club.

That was the thing that I remember covering was how journalists were deriding him for using a back three and thinking that could work at a club like Inter.

I mean, look how much that picture has changed in the time since.

Almost every big club uses a back three regularly.

And I think he, again to repeat the theme of this podcast two things can be true at the same time he made mistakes intern

but the idea that because you have one go at a big job that's as short as that and it doesn't work out that you could never work at another big club and be a success is ludicrous finally on this Barry you know it looks like you know Atalanta should go through Liverpool should go out West Ham should go out Aston Villa no by no means a shoe-in at Lille it's gonna be a terrible week for the best league in the world I don't buy the fact that it's the best league in the world I never have I don't think it's the the best league in England, but it all depends on what your definition of best in inverted commas constitutes.

Certainly not the most competitive.

There are some terrible teams in it.

Yeah, so if they all go out,

it doesn't bother me.

The Premier League will not go up or down in my estimation on the strength of several teams crashing out of Europe this week.

My opinion of it will still be the exact same.

All right.

And that'll do for for part two.

Part three, we'll look ahead to the games in the best league in the world.

HiPod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here, too.

Hello.

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Exactly.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Let's do an FA Cup preview first.

Man, City, Chelsea, and Coventry, Manchester United.

What do we want, Lars?

We want a Coventry-Chelsea final.

Chelsea could beat City, and Coventry could beat Chelsea.

And that's the dream, surely.

Yeah, and I think

it's kind of well set up for a classic FA Cup sort of semi-final weekend, isn't it?

Because we have,

you could say that Coventry United is

a sort of is a mismatch, but then again, the way United are playing, I think they're capable of losing to pretty much anyone.

They're so open, conceding so many shots.

But they also, of course, have the, listen, their favorites, They'll probably win.

Like, they have the attacking firepower, all this sort of stuff.

But they're playing in a way that I kind of feel gives most opponents a chance against them because they're not dominating or blowing teams away.

Like, they just haven't been doing that all season.

So, so Coventry will go into this thinking.

This is a team that'll give us a chance at some point.

So, it'll be up to them to take it.

And for the other one, obviously, City.

This will have been a bit of a blow for them psychologically, I think.

You know, this thing yesterday, and then they have to turn that around to play against Chelsea.

And as ridiculous as Chelsea have been, I looked at this in the games they've played in the league against the sort of top three, City, Arsenal, and

Liverpool, they've only lost once.

I mean, they got a draw home and away against City in the league.

They've got a draw against Arsenal and they've got a draw against Liverpool.

They've been getting results against some of the stronger teams at Chelsea.

So I don't think it's completely ridiculous to suggest that they could really make a game of it against City.

And of course, this is very much the Cole Palmer Derby.

I feel like I've narrative-wise have buried the lead here.

This is L.

Cole Palmer Eco.

I think the way this thing is just shaping up.

But Mark Robbins famously had a major say in the future of a Manchester United manager.

What, 35 years ago?

Yeah.

Scoring a goal in an FA Cup third round match that kept Fergie in a job.

And I have a feeling he's going to have a major say in Eric Tenfag's future as well, because I think Coventry are going to beat him.

And that'll be that for Ten Hag.

In the Premier League,

you've got to get back on the horse, Arsenal at Wolves, which Nikki is, it's not easy, is it?

And I think this has always been a thought in this tighter race conversation, even when Arsenal Top.

I looked at the running for Arsenal and thought,

it's always been a quite intimidating one.

And this is when you look at it on paper, one of the ones that should be the, okay, you've got to win this one because you've got Chelsea, Tottenham still to play.

But yeah,

it's going to be a real test of their confidence.

It's going to be a real test of how much it's shaken them to, frankly, not just lose these last two games, but not score in these last two games.

I think that's something really that starts to...

Certainly as a fan, it starts to make you very anxious.

And I would have thought as a player as well on your team that's been as successful and as productive as Arsenal have been all season, to go 180 minutes without putting the ball in the net starts to raise questions of, God, when are we going to do it again?

Liverpool obviously played tonight, they then go to Craven Cottage.

And Barry, we have established we have no idea what you will get at Craven Cottage.

No, a jacuzzi in the stands.

That's about it.

And I'm there for that.

Yeah, absolutely.

Why not?

I mean, you don't want to sit in a jacuzzi for an hour and a half, though, do you?

You'd be like a prune.

You'd be so wizened there watching Tom Kearney play side-foot passes and Alex Awobi firing one wide.

There are NFL stadiums now that have pools in the sands, so you can

be in a swimming pool and dip in and out and watch the game.

Wow.

That just feels like an admission of defeat on the count of the organisers.

Like, we're just assuming you're not going to be interested in what's happening on the field.

So,

let's put a pool in instead so you can have a nice swim.

At the bottom of the table, Sheffield United Burnley at the bottom two.

Everton Forest in the PSR Appeals Derby.

And that's an absolutely enormous game.

Isn't it?

Everton have 27 points from 32, Forrest 26 from 33.

We obviously don't really know how many points they have.

Is Forrest all done now?

I can't remember.

No, it isn't, is it?

So we're not really sure how many points they have.

Maybe they should just do these appeals during this football match, Barry.

Maybe.

I mean,

I think Forrest are vastly superior team to Everton, but the table suggests otherwise.

How will Everton bounce back from the Chelsea game Is the question.

And I think Forest aren't great away from home, are they?

But it's probably be a draw that isn't much use to either of them.

And then Luton Brentford's a big game as well, isn't it?

Injury-ravage Luton against quite injury-ravaged Brentford.

And there was quite an end-of-season feel about that Brentford game last weekend, you know.

Who did they beat?

Sheffield United.

Are you saying they're on the beach?

Are they the first team?

Well, it could go

one of two ways.

It could be on the beach and get tonked at Kenilworth Road, or they could be so relaxed that they could, you know, just ping the ball around and absolutely wallop looting.

So we'll find out, won't we?

Yeah.

That is the beach quandary, isn't it?

I'm looking forward to Aston Villa Bournemouth.

Let me just flag that up since we're right because

that Villa performance against Arsenal,

I just didn't see coming at all.

I mean, that's one of the most sort of what

results for me this season.

Just because Villa have the injury problems that they've had and they've been a little bit iffy uh since the turn of the year and really with them missing both kamara and uh douglas louise for that game and arsenal being so in control as they had been recently i was like that was because it's going to be easy but then as we've discussed a lot on this pod already arsenal had their problems with the ponies i don't are are are aston villa suddenly now very good again is that this seems very ominous giving what's going on with the coefficient and stuff so that coming up against a pretty informed bournemouth team i think that's going going to be a really interesting one on Sunday.

Absolutely.

I mean, it's interesting with that race for fourth and fifth, it's just whichever team has just won is definitely going to get fourth.

And then that just

changes every other week, doesn't it?

It could go to one.

But I do think with Tottenham's running, you know, because Villa have now played those difficult games, haven't they?

They've played Arsenal and won.

And I think they've played one of the other city, I think.

Whereas, you know, Spurs still have to play City, Liverpool and Arsenal.

So I would say Advantage Austin Villa because they were the last one of the sides that won, of course.

Yeah, I mean, Spurs, the much publicized kingmakers of this typhoon race, maybe they're just going to lose all of those games and just because I don't know.

It's entirely possible.

We can all be kings.

It's fine.

Exactly.

It's very generous of them.

Finally, Ewan says, bonjour.

Hi, Max Barry and esteemed panelists.

Ewan from Montreal, Canada.

Not a question, but a story.

He says, my brother Andrew has been recommending this podcast for years to me.

I always said I don't want to listen to a bunch of posh southern English guys talk about football football for an hour.

To my huge mistake, you offer great listening and a great knowledge and analysis to the serious and silly topics in football.

Your panel is mostly not southern, which is a bonus.

You got against, I'm the,

you know, you're southern as well, Nick, I guess, but I don't know what's

the wrong with us, yeah.

Does southern Norway have the same connotations?

It probably does, doesn't it?

Is there a north-south divide in Norway?

There must be.

You soft southern.

Oh, yeah.

There's a very clear distinction about northerners from Norway, for sure, because of course Norway being shaped the way it is.

If you're northern, you're very, very northern.

Yeah.

And they have a very distinctive accent.

And yeah, yeah, yeah.

You couldn't be more northern than a northern Norwegian, could you?

Anyway,

can you please read this?

So my brother Andrew knows he was right about your show being very entertaining.

He lives in England and we don't talk much anymore.

So communicating via this email to you is easier.

Andrew, I'd like to apologise for doubting you.

You're often correct with these things.

I should listen to you more often.

All the best to you and the Guardian team.

Mercier au revoir abianto.

I I mean, it's a slight abuse of using the pod to get in touch with your relatives

when you could ring them up.

But I'm here for it.

If anyone else would like to talk to a long-lost relative that they rarely communicate with, football weekly at theguardian.com.

And that'll do for today's podcast.

Oh, before we go, on Science Weekly, Barney Ronay, crossing the streams, Dr.

Ronay is on to talk about the enhanced games and what they might mean for sport.

Apart from like, you know,

oh,

it's a really shit idea, isn't it?

I mean,

I was trying to think of a clever way of putting that, but anyway, hear Barney say that in a probably a slightly more articulate way on Science Weekly, uh, out today, wherever you get your podcasts.

Uh, um, but thank you for the time being.

Thanks, Nikki.

Thanks, thanks.

Thanks, Baz.

Thank you.

Thank you, Lars.

Happy birthday, Max.

Uh, thank you very much.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Christian Beckett.

This is the Guardian.