Brazil give England food for thought and Wales one step away – Football Weekly

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Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

If we all pull together and believe, can we make an interesting podcast?

Which begins with the word, so what did we learn about this England-friendly?

As long as we can look each other in the eyes and say, well, we died trying, then this will all be worth it.

England lose for the first time since the World Cup to a Brazil side stacked with loads of fun up top and five people who had never met each other at the back.

Is Conor Gallagher a good idea for the third midfield spot?

Did Ollie Watkins fail his audition?

If you look in the mirror and keep asking, can you play a high line with Harry Maguire?

Will the candyman appear?

Did the wokeness of the shirts weigh them down even more than usual?

In games that actually matter, a stirring win for Wales against Finland.

Good performances all over the pitch, setting up a tough playoff against Poland.

Elsewhere, the Republic of Ireland don't lose, and neither do Northern Ireland.

Well, Austria and Germany score unreasonably quickly.

We'll do all that.

Say well done to Chesterfield.

Ask Barney about AI in football.

Take your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barney Ronnie, welcome.

Hi, hi there.

Nada Manua, welcome.

Morning, sir.

And hello, Barry Glendenning.

Hello, Max Rushford.

Charlie says, should I still make up the bed in the spare room for when it comes home?

England-nil Brazil 1.

Barney, you were there.

I saw one paper aeroplane make it to the centre circle.

It was a great moment.

How was it for you?

The first half was a really empty feeling game.

But I don't know, there's been a lot of negative sort of feedback about it.

I don't think it was completely useless.

I think, I mean, it was kind of bizarre to hear Southgate so upbeat at the end, but I think he realized that he would have to look for the positives because there's so much kind of ambient negativity and people sort of looking for something negative to say about him.

I think he learned about how important Harry Kane is to the team because the drop-off to the other very good centre forwards is huge.

I mean, Kane is really a very, very good player.

And

it's not just how good he is, it's that he's spent seven or eight years being the attacking keystone.

So everything works around him and the other players work around him and he kind of makes it happen.

And you forget how good he is at that.

And I think they really missed that against Brazil.

I think he probably learned about central midfield that that's not solved.

I think it's the second central midfielder, not the third.

I mean Bellingham is playing as a number 10.

He's not playing in central midfield.

It's a really important position.

You know, these tournament games,

when you get to the knockout, tend to be won and lost in midfield.

The team with the best midfield wins because when you get to late in the game, you're keeping the ball and you're playing better through midfield.

That's the history of what's happened against Holland, in the Nations League, against Croatia, against Italy too.

The central midfield was just better.

And I don't think Conor McGallagher is a player who plays central midfield in a Euros winning team.

I think he discovered that, and that there's just a problem there that's not solved.

I'm really disappointed that he hasn't tried using John Stones there because I know they need stones at the back, but I think central midfield is more important.

And even though City of Bay, different system, he's really good and he's played really well there.

And because he's a defensive player, he would fill that role really well.

So I think they learned quite a lot from it, even though it was not a great spectacle all the time um and i enjoyed watching brazil because i always like watching brazil because even brazil's fourth 11 is full of some brilliant players so that i i quite enjoyed it in the end nadi what do you make of that john stone's idea it's not to say that it couldn't work but even when he does it for man city he's not even like a holding midfielder anyway he's just playing as a midfielder it sort of gets forward he'll be doing underlaps overlaps getting in the box But he definitely has the skill set for it to potentially work.

Whether or not you'd want to sort of build into it with only three games to go before the tournament starts, I'm not sure, but I'm sure there's some sort of variation in which they could have that.

And I think, yeah, sorry, Ned, I'm sorry, just I totally agree, it's too late now, but it's just he's playing for the best team in the world in central midfield and they're weak there.

And somehow, we're not using him.

But you know, there we go.

I think it was nice to be fair to listen to Barney talk about the game without it all being so doom, gloom, pessimistic, and all this stuff because that's basically all I've heard since the game finished.

Oh, Southgate does it again, oh, this or that.

I'm like,

it's like a friendly, you know what I mean?

And unfortunately, within, in my opinion, within English football culture, they just don't care about friendlies, even a fan base.

They'll look for something negative and say the game's no good.

The atmosphere itself was different.

But then I think also it sort of highlights, in my mind, how important the nation's league can be.

But yeah, looking at some of the players that were missing, like a Kane, like a Saka, I think even potentially if Luke Shaw was to come back in on that side, wondering who's going to play on the left, like that's not going to be the team team that England will play at the Urals.

It seems very unlikely unless everyone else is unavailable.

So I don't think you can read too much into it.

But then again, you know, they were positive because Gordon makes his debut and he described it after the game as the best day of his life.

And when you sort of step back, here's a young person making your debut for England at Wembley against Brazil.

That's awesome for him.

But I think Southgate knows there are far bigger things ahead and he's having a look at one or two people.

But when push comes to show, like, even if Watkins would have scored three, four, five goals against brazil he's not going to be starting a header cane is he so i think it's a shame that some people didn't perform to their absolute best and brazil kind of highlighted one or two weaknesses but the fact is like that's brazil and last time i checked they don't play in the euros anyway so you know off they go on to the next one yeah i mean i um I did feel for Anthony Gordon in that he said it was the best day of his life and everyone else found it really boring.

Like, I mean, I don't know what the best day of my life was, but I hope other people at least found it slightly interesting, like, like didn't actively find it so boring.

I think the thing is, Barry, is I don't feel it's like

I don't feel any negativity towards Southgate or England for this.

It's just compared to what we normally have at a weekend, it is boring.

Like, that's it.

Like, there's no other way to, you know, maybe, you know, because at least on the other weekend, there's lots of games that I'm invested in, I suppose.

Well,

it's just every now and then you get these weekends where,

you know, we all know football friendlies are pretty dull.

You know,

it's not just us saying it, us jaded cynics it's all fans find them pretty dull the players probably find them pretty dull and you know the managers have to talk them up and they're saying stuff they don't really believe but at least normally there's something else going on that you can grab your attention the grand national or the world snooker championships or the six nations or something so you can have just you know, switch off from the football and watch something else.

And on this occasion, there wasn't really, unless, you know you wanted to watch Andy Murray manfully struggling his way through the opening rounds of Miami or whatever golf was on I don't even know um so yeah but

they were on they were fine

they won't live long in the memory but we're obliged to talk about them and that's fine I you know I thought it was a reasonably okay game

Same with the Irish one against Belgium.

I'm not going to, you know, I'll have forgotten all about them by the next part we do.

Is it just like a cool thing to just not be interested in friendlies, by the way, or like international football outside of like tournaments?

Yes,

it's just not very interesting.

Yeah, I think that it's very sad to hear these dopamine, addicted,

where's my head of excitement?

Well, this is boring.

Feed me, feed me.

Sort of squealing.

Can I just point out that we like tournaments, Tommy?

Tournaments are great.

I mean, tournaments are fantastic.

They've been some really good ones.

But you need the friendlies, even though people say we didn't learn anything.

It's just not true.

The friendlies have to exist.

The Nations League has to exist for there to be an international team to fill your summer, for there to be any kind of idea of building or finding out about players or having chemistry or the things that make teams work are required.

The players won't be saying, oh, that was completely poor.

They might be.

But I doubt it.

You know,

it's part of why you have good international teams.

And so maybe you have to take a hit on squealing for more instant excitement.

Swear's my super Sunday, you know, feed me, stimulate me.

I mean, you can just stare at your phone for a couple of hours, can't you?

Do that, and that will satisfy your desire for instant excitement and

other people running around entertaining you.

If you want good things, sometimes you have to have a kind of boring.

Maybe we should just divide games up into quarters or thirds so you can have more advert breaks and things like that, because they can be boring sometimes as well.

No, but you see, but like I think it's disgusting, Mac.

i listen i love playing football i realize i have to go jogging right to be any use on a football pitch but i hate jogging i still do it but it doesn't mean i have to like it well i like watching you jog max because i know while i'm watching you jog through my binoculars that i'm going to get to see you play football yeah i was going to say as well because that idea of it being almost like too cool or whatever like did you see the columbia spain game at the London Stadium.

Like all I saw was just Colombian fans in the stands and when they scored the winner, they went nuts like they've just won a World Cup final.

So it's not just every team that's not into it.

I feel like it's just certain teams, maybe there's sort of like a European sort of like feeling with that web.

Ah, you know, it's just a friendly, it doesn't matter.

Whereas, I'd say Columbia, the noise from that stadium, I did not know that they would be able to dominate a sound like that in London.

Italy were in New Jersey as well.

I don't know if you saw that.

Same thing.

Very excited,

bulky-looking waste management Italian guys cheering in the stands.

And the look of joy on their faces was something to behold.

Actually, Tim Vickery made a really good point.

I chatted him on the radio at the weekend saying that, you know, there's no such thing in Brazil as a friendly, right?

Like, this is it.

So, so that is, so I suppose the difference is maybe in how they approach the game.

That, you know, you saw when Endrick scored the goal, how delighted he was, or the fact that Pakatar was like kicking everybody he possibly could, that it did perhaps mean more to them.

But I don't know where, I don't know if I don't know if it's my fault, Barney.

Well, no, it is your fault because also I'd point out that while you may be sort of jadedly scrolling through your gambling apps and things, while you're bored to tears by this,

the actual crowd inside the stadium were probably people who maybe don't go to watch football all the time.

The crowd seemed to quite enjoy it, and maybe you get different people coming to watch football at Wembley.

I mean, it was very much like it's that classic Wembley atmosphere.

It's a bit like going to the ideal home exhibition or something.

It doesn't really feel like a football match but it was different people who seemed to clearly enjoy the day and lots of families and stuff like that so while they may not be as grizzled and cynical and glued to the internet as you um they enjoyed it and they should probably apologize to you for that

did

did we did we want to see nada more of kobi mainu than we did i'm not rushing with that one I'm not rushing with that one too much, to be honest.

I think it's great that he made his debut.

Whether or not he's going to be perceived as an option for the summer if other people are available, I'm not 100% sure.

But it was, again, great for him to be able to get out there.

And as I say, the cynical side of things says, oh, you know, it's friendly and so on.

But these are big moments for those guys standing on the sideline, coming on, knowing that this is his debut season anyway for United.

Like, what a story that's been for him.

And he'll be back at Wembley soon for a semi-final as well.

So I didn't necessarily need to see more.

But then again, there's a second game coming.

So maybe he'll get a bigger chance there as well.

Are you suggesting, Max, that Karis Southge made a substitution too late?

Surely not.

He would never do that.

Yeah, Donnie Lee wrote a whole article about that, didn't he?

About, you know, we will see that in the tournament about whether he...

I think I don't have the exact stat, but he very rarely makes the first change in a game.

And

so he's quite reactive.

It has been a common criticism of his.

I don't know, Barney, if you think that is a fair one.

Yeah, it was definitely true.

I think it's baked into personality and his style in that he is successful because he's very consistent in the things he does.

It's about loyalty, faith to a system, not being too reactive, not dropping people because they're not playing well for their club.

You know, that's his entire personality is introducing a consistent system shape and set of personnel.

And that was why it was refreshing at first and people said, wow, this is great.

There's a kind of club feel.

Players seem to be able to express themselves.

This is really good so that's his entire outlook so the idea that he would then within that be really good and particularly good at reactive game-changing substitutions that junk one system and change it early that's not his personality and if you want to take what someone's good at it sometimes involves incorporates and wraps up the things they're not maybe brilliant at you might have other managers who are a bit more mercurial who will reach into the game and alter it like that but southgate's whole system is about saying we will stick with this.

And it has worked in that England have been more successful than they have been in the past.

It's now used to beat him with, but that's what we're like.

And yes, he's not the perfect manager, but that's what he's like.

And it works insofar as he can make things work.

Nadem, you're not rushing to select Kobi Maino.

Are you rushing to deselect Harry Maguire or not?

Here we go.

Not particularly, no.

I could look at him as an individual and say he's probably going to play better if he's on the right-hand side of the defence.

I think if there's a way to, you know, maybe give someone like Brantaway a run out at this next game, see what England looks like with a left sider playing, left centre-back.

Maybe there'll be more sort of options there.

But I'm not rushing to take him out of the team because obviously he made a mistake the other day.

But he's been playing better, I think, for United, playing better for England.

He's experienced it.

And also, like,

who's coming in next?

I think a rush to pull him out would mean that somebody needs to to be instantly there to put straight in that's really like applying pressure.

And I don't see that currently.

And also by comparison, I just don't think Euros-wise, it's not like there are a bunch of nations with far better centre-back partnerships who are just going to be infinitely better and, you know, that can't be exposed as well.

I think that's just the nature of international football.

Unless I'm mistaken, can anyone name like two exceptional centre-backs that are currently playing or will be playing in the Euros?

I mean, Van Dijk and Van der Venn together.

Did you?

Okay, so now that's a great one that you've gone for there.

Great one.

Because

they got turned upside down by Latvia.

You're going to tell me.

No, no, because Scott.

So they beat Scotland 4-0.

But if you watch that game, Scotland, they're walking away thinking, how have we lost 4-0 and have we not scored at least two goals?

You know, and that's something that...

But Van der Ven can't have been fit for that, was he?

No, no, but it was a Nathan Ake, it was a Van Dijk, who were two players who were playing for the Netherlands at the World Cup just gone.

You know what I mean?

And Van Dijk, you know, he plays on the left side.

It's fine.

So it's not necessarily about, say, results as such.

It's the nature of the games themselves.

And I wouldn't have thought that Scotland could go there and have as many chances as they did have.

And on a different day, they're probably going to be scoring more than those.

But we wouldn't necessarily say Ake or Van Dijk are, you know, porous at the back and so on.

But does that add up?

I mean, if you're making chances, isn't that generally because of the structure of the team in front of the centre-backs?

I mean, they're not going to stop.

No, not, no, not necessarily.

Not necessarily because it was the way in which they were getting them because they were committing bodies forward.

There were a couple of mistakes that were had through Scotland's aggression when, say, the Netherlands were trying to play out as such.

And some of these big opportunities, like Shankland, I think it's Shankland.

And I wouldn't have expected him to be going there and sort of dominating to a certain extent in the way that he did.

And as I say, it wasn't one or two opportunities for Scotland.

It was three, four, five, six.

It was a lot of them.

But because they didn't score, it's like, oh, Van Dijk keeps a clean sheet again.

You know, what a dominant force.

But it's not necessarily that simple international level, I I don't think.

Quick question about Phil Foden, who doesn't seem to do the same thing in an England shirt, Barry, as he does in a city shirt.

It's obviously a different thing and a different shirt.

We'll get on to what's on the shirt shortly.

Oh, God, do we have to?

I mean, briefly.

Yeah,

I don't know if it's because Gareth Sauke isn't a manager of the same intensity

and

micro, he's not the same kind of micromanager as Pep is, or if it's

fair to say he's not surrounded by the same quality of players.

I think, certainly, in some cases, it is.

You know,

if you're regularly playing alongside Kevin De Bruyne, that's going to help make you look good.

I'm not saying he's not good, obviously.

He hasn't really done it for England, and he's clearly a brilliant player.

So, I don't know why.

I've heard people say he could be the solution for

who plays in the middle alongside

Rice and Bellingham.

And maybe he, you know, I'm pretty certain Foden could play well

pretty much anywhere on the pitch.

So

I have no idea why he's not doing it.

for England.

Can I say, I mean, I've seen Wendell play twice.

Wendell, the Brazil and Porto left back, twice.

Yeah, he played against Saka in the Champions League, and he was brilliant because he's a really good player.

I mean, he's a very good defensive fullback.

I mean, that's sort of credit to him for playing against those two.

And in both cases, you know, really, really quick and

physical and very hard to get around.

But isn't it, I mean, it's always Garrison Southgate's fault if someone doesn't play well.

I mean, Phil Foden is not going to have a good game every time, is he?

It's different playing for City.

I mean, Nedham, you you know this better than anyone, but he's come through a system, playing a system his whole life in this team, which is his life.

Guardiola is the manager of his life.

Of course, he's going to get the best out of him in a brilliant team, which is the best team in the world.

Playing, coming in for England in a scratch team, playing against this pretty scary left back, being expected to carry again, you're probably not quite as...

focused on the result and the performance.

I don't know.

It's not something to beat Southgate with.

But I would say players, part of their growing is probably part of learning, becoming a better player is to be able to find a way in a game like that.

And maybe it's something that Foden, if he were a slightly better player, would play better for England.

I mean, obviously, he's a brilliant player, but it's a different system and you adapt.

Quickly on the shirt, we sort of touched on it on Thursday when it didn't seem to be quite as big a story as we perhaps thought it was going to become.

And then, you know, sort of lots of...

you know,

you'd expect people on the right were saying it's a disgrace.

And then Keir Starmer said it should be changed.

And then Henry Winter said the flag had been desecrated.

I mean, I just don't, I didn't care on Thursday, and I still don't care.

Barney, you wrote a piece about this, actually.

I mean, it's about the culture wars, isn't it?

And I guess what happens is something happens, the right get angry, then the left get really angry that the right are angry.

And actually, we don't,

there's no laughing at people getting angry about it actually isn't helpful, even if it's exactly what I did.

The thing is, while it's obviously

silly and overblown, and the flag can't be desecrated because it's not sacred, it's not possible to desecrate something that's not consecrated.

It's just some fabric and colours.

But

I have to say, on the other hand, it was clearly intended to provoke, and it got a reaction.

I mean,

I don't think anyone looks very good here.

Nike

intended to...

produce a rainbow version of it which there was then decided that that would be too openly

sort of, you know, too much, too divisive.

So they wrote it back a bit to this one, which it was obviously intended to provoke, and it did.

And so I just feel that everyone in that situation looks a bit stupid.

And

I don't think anyone really gets to feel good about it.

It's a sign of what a confused and divided and unhappy state

what passes for the public discourse is in this country.

and in a in a happier place we wouldn't be talking about this but if you provoke people they will become upset and equally you can say you shouldn't be upset about it but it was pretty obvious that people would be um and that's about all i think about it on on a far less important note uh it was revealed last week that 12 million people in the uk are in absolute poverty and that includes 3.6 million children and one presumes that the parents of those children, who are those of them who are English, will not be able to afford this garment because it will cost them £119.99, which I think is the real scandal here.

Don't you think these things are related?

I mean, why are people anxious about flags and about identity and about being English?

Why are people anxious about immigration?

Why are people using that as a political tool?

Because there is inequality of wealth and there is poverty and there is a lack of opportunity for lots of people in this country.

And that's politicians historically have always preyed on that and fanned on it and made it worse.

Oh yeah, divide and conquer.

It's entirely related.

They're not unrelated.

A happy country that feels good and where people feel they have opportunities, everybody feels that, is not worrying about flags and about yelling at each other the whole time.

I think the two things are entirely related.

And someone more intelligent than me could probably write a good 5,000-word thesis on that.

And it's social media as well, right?

Because the shirt was changed in 2011 when Twitter was a different place.

And this seems to play out on Twitter or X,

which actually isn't used by that many people, but it's such an easy...

uh vehicle to find news for newspapers who have fewer people working for them etc etc and so then you can say he said this she said that and then you've got an article and then

did you see the articles about the George Cross in the England End?

Like fans send messages to Nike.

No, they don't.

Those cards are just left on the seats

with instructions to pick them up.

They didn't bring them in.

It wasn't a show of defiance.

And yet, there are actual newspapers and journalists and people who must know this, saying it was a message to the wokies.

No, it wasn't.

It was some kids lifting up cards that had been left there by the FA.

But that's seen as another development of the story.

It's all very silly.

Yeah.

Alright, well that'll do for part one.

We'll start part two with Wales' win over Finland.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So look, Wales beat Finland.

They now play Poland for a place in the Euros.

People Nadem talk a lot about home advantage and you have played at home grounds that I presume were really great and some that weren't quite as great.

But there is something about Wales at home that even when you're not Welsh, you sort of feel, oh, I wouldn't mind being Welsh today.

I'll be honest, you're the only person I've ever heard say that.

That's quite funny.

But yeah, I think this game itself, you do kind of fancy them because they are playing at home and you see

some of the more historic results they have come at home, the belief that they have there, the crowd when it's up.

But then some of us can also remember when, you know, they weren't really selling out stadiums either because they were doing so badly.

But I think this sort of arc that they've been on since they got knocked out of the World Cup in

two winters ago in pretty ugly fashion, to be honest.

I think it's good to see there's a youthful team there.

Still got a little bit of experience.

You know, this is the post-Gareth Bale sort of era.

Players are buying into it.

The fans are buying into it.

They sort of take up the role, in my opinion, as an underdog fantastically well.

And the way that they play, you know, they can move the ball about well, but they're direct.

They'll come and get you.

You know, even the Dan James goal to finish the game off off the other day, he had no reason to be going to press a centre-back that's 40 yards away from him, but then the reward is a goal that seals the game in the 86th minute.

Yeah, you fancy them, you do really fancy them at home.

Obviously, this Polish side is very well-versed, experienced, got one of the best players of his generation playing up top, you know, former under-21 rifle of mine as from 2008.

You might have heard of him, Robert Lewandowski.

You decided who had a better career after that game.

Sure, but did was he in your pocket

on that particular game?

Just elderly.

Well, I was going to say something a bit suspect there.

Yes, he was in my pocket.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

He was 0-0, so that's a clean cheat for me.

Thank you, Robert.

One-nil to me.

Thank you very much.

But you do fancy them because for as good as any team is, going there is always going to be tough.

And when those players on the field have a belief and have a crowd, they're going to get right behind them.

And the quality is good enough to where the sides are quite evenly matched.

You can't help but kind of lean that way.

Maybe there's a British bias to that.

But yeah, I fancied him to be in Euros this summer and then enter that group of death as well.

Because who are they in?

Was it France, Austria, and who's the other team?

The Netherlands, is it?

Yeah, the Netherlands, yeah.

So, yeah, get your reward, win this game, get your award of

some tougher games ahead.

I mean, it's interesting the Wales home thing because

they could make an awful lot more money by having the games in the Millennium Stadium, or whatever it's called these days.

But they don't.

They've asked, we want to play at Cardiff, and the Wales fans want the games at Cardiff, even though it means they're harder to get tickets for, because Cardiff just works for them, the Cardiff

City Stadium.

And then that song they sing, apologies to Ellis and any other Welsh people who might be listening, Yamo Heed

before the game, which is sort of this folk song of defiance that has become their anthem.

The Red Wall sing that,

that gets the hairs up on the back of my neck, and I'm not well.

So they've got a really good thing going on at Cardiff.

I watched the Finland game.

They were really good.

It was a good game.

Looked a bit ropey in the fence, and Timu Puki got in behind them quite a few times and scored on one occasion.

Possibly we should have scored more than one.

But they seem to have put the fact that Garris Bale is no longer there behind them.

Aaron Ramsey will probably be little more than a bit part player.

He was there for this game.

I don't think he came on.

He might have come on.

No, I don't think so.

No.

But he's still there.

chris gunter is retired but he's as we said last week he's on vibes in the backroom staff uh he does more than that obviously but you know he is a bit of a vibes man my only worry about them is that poland always seem to qualify for everything and then don't really do anything when the tournament comes around

so yeah i i do hope they beat poland but it'll be a lot tougher i'd say than this game against finland well it does feel barney like like it's a...

Both Nadam and Barry mentioned, you know, Gareth Bale.

It feels like in the sort of Gary Speed, just Chris Coleman era, that

they relied on...

You know, you just go, oh, hang on, what's happened to Wales?

Oh, Gareth Bale's got a free kick from 40 yards in Serbia or something like that in the 87th minute.

And this isn't the case.

You know, they're scoring goals from lots of places.

They've got five forward players who...

are all sort of similar in ability.

Brennan Johnson's, I mean, I don't know who you you like.

I think Harry Wilson plays brilliantly for Wales, but they've got options, haven't they?

Now, I think it's a really good Welsh team, indifferent to other Welsh teams in that they have a greater depth.

There are a lot of good, neat, young, technical players there in a way that

you're not,

it's not Gareth Bale and 10 blokes from the Football League, so to speak.

It's,

I know, I think this is significant.

I think Wales,

how to say this,

have benefited from the success of the Premier League League and Premier League Academies.

It's the most powerful, brilliantly resourced league, and their players get to play in it from the age of eight.

And Premier League Academies are fantastically productive things these days.

It will probably annoy Welsh people to say it, but

they are.

They are a great team.

They're a very modern technical team because seven of that outfield ten came through Premier League Academies and are just very good young players with a whole sort of range of skills play in a kind of modern way and they're going to qualify for tournaments on the back of that.

So I don't think that's an offensive thing to say.

It depends what you think international football is.

If you think it means if England wins that English people are genetically superior, it's a test of a system.

It's a test of how well you've allocated your resources, how well your youth coaching is, how good your tactical thinking is.

And that's why international football is interesting, not because one race is innately superior to another one.

So the system that's being tested in the Wales football team is objectively the Premier League.

And the Premier League is doing really well with Wales.

And I mean, it's great to see people singing about the Premier League before those games and about how good the Premier League is and all those...

fans in red celebrating the Premier League.

It's a wonderful sight.

And the Premier League has a second team at the Euros, which is fantastic.

And the people of Wales must be really pleased to have outsourced their football to the Premier League like that.

So I take all that back.

I'm just being annoying, but you get what I'm saying.

I think partly the only people who think the English are genetically superior are the English.

That's a

not all the English,

I'd say.

Pretty confident that I'm not genetically superior to anyone, frankly.

Certainly, my knees aren't.

And I'd say behind that front line as well, Nathan, you know, like Ampidou and Jordan James were brilliant.

Jordan James, interesting, because he's playing for what, Birmingham, who are not having a good time, but he looks really super player to me yeah absolutely does and I think Ampadu's just had his 50th uh cap as well the age of 23 fair play to them you know these guys have started young in their times they have looked young but they do look like a really good side at the moment and it'll be interesting because I was speaking with Rob Earnshaw yesterday and he thinks that Aaron Ramsey will go straight back into the team when he's available and it's like at whose expense

And I thought it's going to be interesting that one because,

and I was thinking, you know, are you going to be carrying one essentially?

Because for as good as he has been, he's not there right now.

But then Rob said, well, when he plays, other people elevate themselves.

And he's got a way of bringing out the best in others as well.

So

it'll be interesting to see who drops out at that moment.

But the Welsh side are, they're doing very, very well at the moment.

And yeah, you can see them getting through this game.

And, you know, everything that we said about Poland qualifying for tournaments, but not really doing too much.

Respectfully, that's kind of how I'd see Wales if they had the same thing.

It's almost like this is a playoff for that.

But I'm happy to be wrong.

I'm happy to be wrong because it's happened before and i'm sure it'll happen again it's just i mean wales don't have a history a long history of qualifying for for tournaments now i could be completely wrong here but i haven't checked but i'm pretty sure poland have qualified for every single tournament that's been played in the 51 years of my existence and i don't think they've ever done anything of note so um so whales did reach a semi-final as well didn't they i could watch that how robson can you turn oh oh over and over again interesting nadin do you think Robbie Earnshaw is the first person that we've both spoken to on a weekend on separate occasions?

He didn't say anything to me about Aaron Ramsey, but you know,

you asked the wrong question, that's why I did ask the wrong question.

You were talking about things that didn't matter.

I was going straight to it.

You're right.

Very interesting guy, is Robbie Earnshaw?

He is.

Absolutely.

And he send a tweet about space that was really.

I can't remember what it was, but it was something like.

Stop me in my tracks, Abby Singleton.

What was that?

It did.

It did stop me.

It was something to do with calendars.

I remember I was driving a neighbor, an elderly neighbor, to a doctor's appointment.

And

I'm not doing this.

I don't like to talk about my good works for the community.

But

I stopped at a red light.

And he asked me, like, how do you know when to stop?

And I said, well, because the light is red.

And he said, no, but how do you know when to press the brake so that you stop right at the light?

And I started thinking about it and my head went.

And then I just couldn't drive anymore.

This is the tweet.

Yeah, here's the tweet.

Here's the tweet sent from Robbie Ownshaw at 12 minutes past seven on May the 17th, 2020, where he said, there is an amazing tweet.

There is zero evidence that today is Sunday.

We are all kind of relying on the fact that somebody's kept an accurate count since the first one ever.

It's an absolutely brilliant tweet, isn't it?

How the hell do we know that today is Monday?

We're all just going along with it.

It's only Robert Ernst that's questioning whether today is Monday.

Anyway,

good question.

Nadem, you, you, as we joined the Zoom for this, you said you'd been catching up on Poland five, Estonia one.

So I know Lewandowski didn't score.

So I guess

when we look at Poland, we just go, it's Lewandowski and 10 other people.

And that's probably not true, is it?

No, no, it's absolutely not true at all because I don't think he scored in the game either.

So he did have some opportunities.

He was moving well and so on,

as well as a 35-36-year-old can move.

But I think that game, even though Poland were favourites, they were at home.

I think, like the moment Stoney went down to 10, that was basically tied on, and this was in the first half as well.

So, maybe Poland got a look at, say, what it could look like if a team maybe went for more of a lower block, you know, really sort of penned themselves in and had to defend for their lives.

And in fairness, they did break them down.

But I think the challenge that they'll be facing with Wales, especially away from home, will be a far greater one for them.

And if they're not prepared for it, then I didn't necessarily see anything in that Poland game that would make me think that that they'll be able to fight through that if they don't come ready for a huge game.

Georgia played Greece and Ukraine, Iceland for the other two spots.

Barry, Ireland drew 0-0 with Belgium.

And they looked like they played okay.

They did play okay.

Yeah, they went with a sort of 3-4-3

with Seamus Coleman and Robbie Brady with these.

young up-and-coming thrusting wing backs doing an excellent job running up and down the pitch relentlessly.

This was obviously John O'Shea's first game in charge as interim manager.

And he seems to have got the job because, you know, on an interim basis, just because he was mildly interested in doing it and no one else was, and he was hanging around the place.

And I was quite impressed with what I saw.

They made life difficult for an admittedly second or third string Belgium side.

They had the better chances.

They missed the penalty.

Evan Ferguson's drought goes on.

His standard foot kind of went from under him as he took the pen and

it was saved.

Yeah, I was pretty impressed.

I would say,

just because no one else seems to want it, that if John O'Shea were to win this game or not lose

against, I think Switzerland is next up.

that he if he's interested he might get the job and he seems to speak very well he i thought his post-match analysis was very interesting

insofar as anyone's post-match analysis is ever interesting.

And

yeah, I'd say if he...

Now,

the FAI claim that they're, you know, very immersed in the process of announcing a success, or they have someone in mind, but because they're contracted to someone else, they can't say who it is.

Now, I don't know how true that is, but

I'd say O'Shea could manage his way into the job on a full-term basis over this break if he wants it, and I suspect he might want it.

And I wouldn't have any huge objections, but I think it would be premature to say, oh, he's brilliant, because we didn't get tonked by Belgian reserves.

In regards to,

I'm going to allow you to speak for the whole nation now, please, Barry.

Are critiques of Evan Ferguson fair, or is it more something that comes from people outside of Ireland, would you say?

Critiques.

Critiques because he's not scored in 20, has he?

No, he hasn't.

And it's kind of baffling.

I mean, he's no longer first choice at Brighton.

He's 19.

Yeah, that's what I mean.

I would have no criticism at all.

I think it's quite strange he hasn't scored for so long.

My only concern, and I think it's a completely groundless one, is that he would go the same way as Aaron Connolly, whose

career seems to have gone off a cliff after a very promising start at Brighton.

I think he's at Hull now and maybe doing okay.

I'm not sure.

But I don't think that will be an issue with young Mr.

Ferguson.

My main takeaway, Barry, was a few moments ago

you suggested that all that no post-match analysis is interesting.

And in a sense, we trade in post-match analysis.

And so I do hope that I became aware of that exactly as I said it.

And many would say that.

But

I probably stand over quite a lot of that statement.

Max, after the

Liverpool United game, United Liverpool game last week, did you have a discussion about Klopp getting angry at a reporter?

Yes.

It's funny because I was standing right next to him.

I was next up to chat to him on an interview.

Oh, yeah.

So I was one of about five people in the world that saw it happen live.

I was like, this is, this is, look at me.

And did he be here?

And did he walk off and not talk to you either?

Or did he talk to you in really happy?

Jurgen Klopp.

He had to.

So he walked past me, but then

the press officer asked him to come back because he was due to speak to me on the same camera.

So yeah, he then spoke to me

and he was really good.

He was really, really good.

And it was interesting because I know lots of people that don't necessarily like Jürgen Klopp.

And it'll be because of clips like that.

It's the confirmation bias.

He is rude.

He is this.

He is that.

That was interviewed seven of about 10.

And I was number eight.

And I gave a slightly different line of questioning.

And he was really good.

But it was interesting to see that turn into into something is like ah i feel like i'm caught in a moment here which might go viral look at me look at me behind the scenes i've made it were you not you're not tempted to ask exactly the same question

so so jurgen according to what he's just said i had like confirmation yeah what's wrong with your football team but yeah that was uh that that was fun being back there at that time and i couldn't when it happened like because he said i thought i don't know if it came out in the clip but as you walk just behind the camera he says oh i see you guys are happy now you've got what you wanted you've got the reaction this will be a big story now.

And he was right because next thing said, bang, there we go.

You're a good club.

Terrible guy, apparently.

Yeah, but he was a bit rude, though, wasn't he?

I mean, I know it's his seventh interview and he's probably bored, but I thought the question was totally rude.

Did you hear that question being asked anywhere else?

As in, did you hear anyone else even insinuate it?

Because then...

It doesn't mean it's a bad question.

No, no, no, no.

But it means that it's not, to be fair, let me put it this way.

It doesn't mean that it's necessarily a bad question, but it's not really something that other people saw.

So I think he's something that he would perceive to be a sore point because he can be, he defends his team and his club very passionately.

And when he feels like there's a little underhand thing being leveled there, so you guys are usually high energy.

Well, what's wrong with you?

Basically, is another way in which he could have said the question.

And even though he kind of has to answer it, I think as is the case, you talk like Barry talks about post-game.

Imagine if you had to interview like fans post-game or something, like some of the nonsense that would be coming out, especially if someone triggers you with a question you're just not really having.

That's kind of what that was.

But to give him credit, he walked back to talk to me.

So yeah, I I don't know.

That's more power to me or just more power to the press officer at the time.

Really helped me out because I didn't know what to do.

I think Jürgen, please come back.

On whose behalf were you asking?

It was for ESPN.

Jürgen, please, please come back, Jürgen.

Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, Kaiser.

Please, please.

I'm disappointed in you that you didn't just say

ask exactly or just get that massive.

Actually, I've got my advocate here to ask you a question and then bring that Danish guy back.

I give my time over to Mr.

Viplay again.

Please, let's try this one more time.

We've touched on Netherlands beating Scotland 4-0, Baz.

And as Nadin said,

Scotland were actually quite good in this game, and they are not going to care, are they?

They're in the Euros.

They've got the opening game against Germany.

It's perfectly set up.

Or is that patronising?

I wouldn't necessarily agree that they won't care.

Maybe I wouldn't say patronising.

I think they did care because John McGee and Andy Robertson were both quite angry after the game.

And they both spoke separately about letting bad habits creep back in.

That was John McGain and Robertson said we can't keep doing this

going into our old ways against big teams.

So I don't think they were particularly impressed.

The scoreline did flatter the Netherlands certainly 4-0.

Scotland missed a lot of chances, which is slightly worrying, I suppose.

Steve Clarke was quite philosophical about it afterwards, and Ronald Kuhlmann was actually very critical of his own team, despite them winning 4-0.

And he singled out Zavi Simmons for Simons for individual criticism, which I thought was interesting, seeing as Simons is just a kid, but a very good one.

And I can get where McGinn and

Robertson were coming because Scotland haven't won in six.

They've lost four, drawn two, and they're conceding at an average of three goals a game.

And in a tournament where

goal difference could make a huge uh or could be a huge factor in getting out of the group that that is a worry elsewhere northern ireland drew one all in romania but richard says barry liked wales continuity northern ireland have them beat stephen davis is on the coaching staff gareth macaulay managing the under 19s aaron hughes as technical director um uh austria and

jennings there anywhere

of course they are um

uh germany scored after seven seconds uh in their game and it was a brilliant goal from florian werts And then Austria scored after six seconds to be the fastest ever goal

in international football.

Christoph Baumgartner scored a goal where I think it was the Slovakian defense all just disappeared.

Well, they were kind of the same goal, weren't they?

The two guys basically ran to the same position and produced slightly different finishes.

Watching that, I feel...

really annoyed and frustrated with professional footballers and I think it looks really why don't you just do that all the time just looks really easy just run forward smashing them now why doesn't everyone do that all the time?

Because it looks so easy.

It's the earliest you can see, did Nadam.

It's probably within the first couple of minutes, to be honest.

And it's just, ah, it's awful.

It's truly awful feeling.

Obviously, six and seven seconds is somewhat of a downer.

But yeah, I think as we're sort of like hearing there from Barney, like you kind of want people to do something good to start with, just like be progressive.

It's a very good effort and it does catch you off guard.

Because I think it was the Baumgaunter one.

The guys literally dribbled past two players.

And then, if you're in the back line, you're like stunned.

Like, how did this guy get to this?

It's like a, what's the word?

What, what phrase we use?

Like a speed run now.

Ah, ah, someone's coming towards me.

Ah, how do I deal with this?

Because you can't dive in now.

You've got to try and measure it out.

Next thing, it's in the bottom corner.

It says, well, somebody get the ball.

The game can begin now.

Cheers.

Cheers for that.

Yeah.

Germany beat France, Barney, 2-0.

And I don't think a lot of people expected that.

And this is the idea that Germany aren't really that good.

But then when you watch that game and Mussial was brilliant and Tony Cruz has come back, played very well.

And Florian Wurtz, who I didn't know a lot about, scored that brilliant goal and also looked good.

Suddenly, thinking that Scotland could turn Germany over on the opening game seems less likely.

Yeah, they were good.

And

it's,

I mean, it was kind of a,

it was almost like a return to West Germany ideas of winning a game by

sort of upsetting an opponent who expects to be able to play around you.

I thought they look really good and well organised.

There was a lot of counter pressing.

They kept stealing the ball in those areas where the manager particularly likes them to do that.

And Kai Havertz played really well.

Havertz,

he made a really good run.

I mean, Mussiala was brilliant for the second goal, but Havertz's run was really good.

And it was interesting to see France lose a game because we assume that they're the standard and that everyone has to get past them, which I'm sure is still true.

And they also had a lot of chances.

But you need a good host nation in a Euros, particularly to to have a weak germany at their own euros would be really disappointing and they look really energetic and they look pragmatic and they look hard to play against and it was quite exciting i could just feel that quarterfinal defeat

there it is um anyway that'll do for that'll do for part two uh back in a sec

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

I'm going to start by talking about Stuart Weber, the former Norwich Sporting Director, gave an interview to local Norwich paper The Pinkin when referring to five black players.

Said they might have ended up in jail or something else had they not become professional footballers.

Raheem Sterling, Abu Kumara, Jonathan Rowe Max Ahrens and Jamal Lewis were all referred to by name.

He's also been the sporting director at Huddersfield, worked as head of recruitment at Liverpool.

Kick it out, said to read such callous language being used by someone who until recently was a senior executive at the top of the English game paints a very damning picture.

Resorting to lazy stereotyping is clearly upsetting and for those who have been targeted, but also shows a complete lack of respect for their families who've played a huge part in the journeys that the players have been on.

Abu Kumara, one of the players' name, posted a statement on social media saying, my family and I are deeply saddened and shocked by the comments made by Stuart Weber in a recent press article.

I want to say to all black and ethnic minority children that you don't have to be a professional athlete to avoid living a life of crime, and it's important that younger audiences are not left with this false narrative.

However, these remarks are a sign that there's still a long way to go to be treated equally you can be whatever you want to be as long as you work hard believe in yourself and be consistent in what you do it's understood weber has either apologized or made approaches to the players he named in the interview but had not been in contact with the complete list by sunday afternoon he's been contacted for comment by the guardian

just seems so crass nadam doesn't it

yeah he's um he's completely misjudged that one and as as you were hearing that statement the belief that you didn't realize you didn't think that anything you're saying was wrong you thought this is all fair this is just a great way to think and as you say if this is someone that sits at the top of the football pyramid at certain points then that's surely going to be the mentality which can sort of filter down because if that's language you can use out in the open then what's he using behind the scenes as well how can he sort of influence football and just general sort of narrative and discussion around certain people within this um

within this industry and it's a shame it's sad and

it's also not really surprising for someone to think that that's just a normal way to think or a normal way to speak and a normal thing to believe.

Because I hear lots of people saying similar things when they see someone, say a black player or another minority player, oh, you know, you can see that he's this or he's come from that or it's this, that, and the other.

And, you know, we were talking before about on the podcast about, you know, certain socio-economic situations and so on.

And that doesn't just exist within just minorities.

Not everyone that's in there has to go this way or that way.

It's a very stupid thing for him to say.

It's a stupid thing for him to think.

Lots of people continue to believe it.

And all this, even if he apologises, won't make a difference to many, which is a shame.

But, you know, that journey to try and find things that are a bit more fair and a bit more equal, maybe it has an end point, but for me, at times, looking, I just assume, I just think that it doesn't, to be honest.

Yeah, and the frustration is that, you know, we know that sport can be a, in Bert Gummers, way out for lots of people, right, who are in difficult circumstances, but not,

but that is, they can be white or black or anything, right?

Can't Can't they?

To have just picked those five players.

Yeah, it's yeah, it's stupid.

It's it's completely stupid.

And for him to not realize how stupid it was until the backlash came is quite alarming because there would have been so many points throughout his life where he could have just seen that that's you know, there's a lot more to this.

And I think the point they made about almost like he's the he's the savior.

Like, let's, let's disregard their families.

Their families and stuff don't matter.

If it wasn't for him and these other people, you know, they would be doing this.

They'd be in jail.

They'd be whatever.

Like, i do find it quite embarrassing i really really do but again like the other side of the coin is i don't find it surprising so realistically like how do you move forward from that barney you wrote a really uh fun column on the future of football um mentioning google's deep mind uh liverpool project and ai designed corners and and what will ai do for football i mean what will it do for post-match analysis is perhaps the big worry but what will it do for what will it do for the game yeah it was um this this study's been in the pipeline for a while um it's a partnership between google's um ai project and liverpool they've they've been doing it for a couple of years and they released their detailed study last week I mean, it is fascinating, and

it's all too easy to look at this and just feel the life drain from your body at the prospect of it.

But they studied essentially about a thousand corners.

They like corners because it's a single data point, as they call it.

one thing is happening and you can analyze what happens once that corner has been taken so it's the simplest way to get into this and basically they what they've discovered at the end of it is that ai were they were they all christian ericson corners that didn't beat the first man every single one of them well what yeah i mean that's sort of factored in oh there's so many you could get into that it's interesting the people who did this are avowedly not football fans they're not football people they're kind of people who are just interested in science and want to work out so they got got a team of football people.

They called them human rater experts to check and cross-reference their results with what the human eye sees.

And the end of this was that basically AI is better at corners than humans.

Like what AI came up with was A, indistinguishable from what these experienced football coaches came up with as good.

corner tactics, good defending, good delivery, blah, blah, blah.

But when AI then tweaked existing human corners that had happened and said, well, what if you did this?

The coaches in 90% of the cases said, well, hang on, that's actually better.

I like what you've done there.

Whoever came up with this is really good.

Can we, you know, can we?

And it turned out that was a computer.

So much like in the 80s, we kind of, there was a whole thing of will a, will a computer ever beat a human at chess?

And obviously, subsequently, the answer is very much so,

and very easily.

AI and computers are just better at at tactics than humans, is their conclusion.

And it makes sense to me because we think of a football match as being something with endless variables.

Like it's just this endless mystery.

So many things can happen.

AI can view those things in what they call 350-dimensional space and can make those calculations instantly.

And it is not a game of endless variables.

If you had an AI brain, you could

synthesize every single possible combination of events from the pass you're about to make within a millisecond of a second.

And you would always make the right pass because you've already, you've made so many calculations that you know what the right.

So sport becomes, frankly, perfectible with AI.

And you'll have a situation where coaches can synthesize games.

And that will be inputting into what tactics they use.

That will happen quite soon.

And it will totally change how people plan for games.

It will certainly affect it.

Obviously, the technology is really, really new.

It's like a brick-built mobile phone at the moment, and there's lots of flaws with it.

But in time, this will totally infect how people plan, coach, and win at sport.

And it won't be very long.

It'll be very different.

So I've gone on about this quite a lot, but I do find it quite interesting.

No, it's interesting.

Yeah.

No, I find it really interesting as well.

But I think the bit that I would push back on, I was playing for one of my several professional outfits before, and I had a manager who maybe had a son that worked in media who maybe had played football before.

And when we were in the Premier League, again, narrowing it down, we'd be setting up for the opposition's attacking corners.

And we had like an analyst team and so on.

They'd be looking at corners, main threats, secondary threats, secondary threats, you know, second balls, in-swingers, outswingers, everything.

They looked at so many different ones in the past.

But said manager would instead just go to their son and ask them, who are the main headers of a ball for this team?

And so we would approach the weekend according, having matchups according to that.

So at that point, even though all the data, the information, the analysis is there, they still just want to go off like family-related vibes.

And I think with AI, I think you can have

the idea of like putting something on a tactics board and proving to someone that it works, but some people are so resistant to it.

And secondly, some people aren't very good at coaching.

They can have an idea, but they don't know how to get their players to do it without receiving a lot of friction.

Say, oh, I just need more players.

The ones that always need more players, more players, more players, more players.

Maybe they're the ones who aren't quite possible to able to coach what they need.

Who's on the big lad?

That's what you're who's on the big lad?

Someone on the big lad, Nadem on the big lad.

But some of that stuff, it's a trick.

Like, say, for example, Harry Kane is somebody that goes for the second ball all the time.

But someone's son would have said, oh, Harry Kane's good in the air.

You need someone to be on him straight away.

But then you end up taking like all your eyes away from where you're supposed to be looking.

When I was looking at corners, I came across this story by Ronaldo, original Ronaldo, who said when they

Carlo Angelotti was just brilliant with

when they're at Milan, they had Berlusconi

used to come, was obsessed with corners.

He used to study them personally, the owner of the club.

And he would constantly talk to Angelotti about what to do on corners.

And he would come into the dressing room before

a game and talk to Angelotti and the entire dressing room about what they needed to do in this game because he's been studying corners.

And Berlusconi would talk for 10 to 15 minutes about what to do.

And the whole Angelotti would say, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and agree with him and smile.

And he said, and then Berlusconi would leave and Angelotti would say,

Okay, now we go back to our things,

which I just thought was such a nice Anchilotti kind of thing to say.

He's such a brilliant, but yeah, I mean, he's a vibes but also a data man, isn't he?

I think that's the key to his success.

He kind of got that nose for it, the way he can smell football.

But he obviously very clearly knows how to organise a team as well.

I mean, automation will end, you know, all human activity.

We know that, but you've got to feel for the set peak piece coaches.

They've only just started.

They've only just got good and now they're going to be taken over by the robots.

Anyway, David says, what's your predicted aggregate score between Chesterfield and Cambridge next season?

Oh, God.

But well done to Chesterfield.

Back in the Football League on 95 points

with five games to go after six seasons away.

Paul Cook, who sort of has permanently lost his voice, hasn't he, as a manager,

is back in the EFL.

Will Griggs scoring the goal for them.

So welcome to the EFL.

And that'll do for today's pod.

Cheers, Nadum.

Thank you very much.

Thanks, Baz.

Thanks.

Just

as recent pods have been devoted to political lookalikes from me, I'd just like to steer everyone in the direction of of the Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk, who is an absolute ringer for our own Barney Bronner.

Yeah, Barney veers between Donald Tusk and Niles Crane, but you know, you're more Tusk at the moment, Barney.

Donald does as well.

No, Tusk has done really well.

He's been really good for me.

His time in office,

he's had a lot of roles, and it's been good.

I feel we're tied together.

I've had a conversation once with the editor of the paper, who was really pressing me on this.

I almost felt like she felt I should have some kind of political analysis because of this incredible resemblance to

who was then the chairman of the EU.

But it just stops at having slightly boggly eyes, I'm afraid.

Yeah, you've got another one, Baz.

I think it's the Agriculture Minister in New Zealand or something.

But you know, okay.

There are lots of people with glasses, and

your face turns out.

Well, there is a quite high-profile political position up for grabs in Ireland.

I clearly look the part, so maybe I should run for office and become Taoiseach.

Wow, I would love to see how that would play out.

I think you'd be very popular, Baz.

Um, you tell it like it is, don't you?

Anyway, um, thank you, Barney.

I think I hadn't thanked you uh officially.

Thank you for coming on.

Cheers, thank you.

Football weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Daniel Stevens back on Wednesday.

This is The Guardian.