How to Break Free from the Trap of Constant Achievement | EP 94

wanted to be the best at everything.

That was really challenging.

It was tiring.

Sometimes it was fun when I would get to some level of accomplishment.

But what I was running away from was that if I wasn't valuable to anyone, I could be abandoned.

And that was really scary.

I had a very powerful experience of oneness, where I was out in the forest and I was one with everything.

The trees were alive, I was the trees, it was all so vibrant.

And I was simultaneously aware that it was just an experience.

As convinced as you are that everything you've done is incredibly valuable, you need to be willing to let all of it go.

All your insights, revelations, memories, and experiences of what you're trying to get back to.

A lot of people get into spirituality as a way to opt out of their human experience and then you go deeper into it and you realize it's about fully opting in.

What does it look like to live with deep inner peace while parenting, leading, and doing business in the world?

In this episode, we're going to explore the intersection of spiritual awakening in daily life.

From the search for validation to the surrender of seeking.

We'll talk about spiritual bypassing, the illusion of enlightenment, and what it really means to heal from the inside out.

Our guest today is somebody who quietly embodies these truths, my husband, Emilio Diaz-Barroso.

So we've had him on the podcast a few times, but I've never really shared about the work that he does in the world.

So Emilio is the president of the University of Santa Monica, where they lead transformational education rooted in spiritual psychology.

He also runs two family offices, is a partner at Bold Capital, and serves on over a dozen boards shaping the future of wellness and technology.

But I think that his most profound journey has been inward.

And in this episode, yes, it's personal, but it's also universal.

And we'll be offering a look at what it's like to have a life guided by presence, depth, and surrender.

Hi, baby.

Hi, baby.

You like my sexy voice?

So we've had four episodes together so far.

This is the first one of this form.

We've done two episodes behind the scenes of our relationship.

One episode you interviewing me and now I'm interviewing you.

And I wanted to have you on because I don't know anybody else that lives with the amount of peace that you live with.

It's almost like you're unscathed by life.

You know, I'll just ask you a question and you'll be like, yeah, we started that company or made or lost this amount of money and it doesn't touch you the way that most people get hung up on things.

And you're somebody who doesn't really, you don't need to be seen in it.

You just silently live it and you don't talk about it unless you're asked.

And I think it's of service in the world.

And I'm somebody that sees it behind the scenes as your wife.

And I think that's a lot to say.

But I also know that this hasn't always been the way for you.

I know that you are very much searching, the search for more recognition, validation.

And it's almost like you woke up out of that trance.

And I think it would be helpful to hear people, your story around where you were.

Yeah, I love you baby.

Me too.

A lot of searching, a lot of seeking, a lot of running.

I grew up in a world as you know that really valued achieving, really valued getting somewhere and whomever wasn't at the top of that food chain was perceived as less than.

So that was a lot of motivation for me throughout my life to

really try to prove myself.

And even more than that, to be seen as valuable, as worthy, as special.

I stumbled on this later on, but what I was running away from back all those years was

that if I wasn't valuable to anyone at any given moment, I could be abandoned.

And that was really scary.

So I did my best to win at everything.

And

that was really challenging.

It was tiring.

Sometimes it was fun when I would get to some level of accomplishment, but there was always something that would arise that would then knock that down relatively quickly and I'd be back running.

When spirituality entered my life.

Well, before you go there, ground it a little bit.

So paint a picture of how did it show up in your relationships, in business, and in life?

Yeah, I wanted to be the best at everything.

I thought that because I had been raised in a place where

I had enough of a platform,

then I had to use that platform of stability and financial and economic whereabouts to be able to go that much bigger, grow that much faster.

And

share what that platform is, because people don't know some of your background.

Yeah, so I, growing up in Mexico, my family had a very large media company, and so it was very prominent.

And wherever I went, most people would sort of identify me with that company.

And the way that I I held myself throughout all my upbringing was that I was so lucky and blessed to have that and that I had to build on top of that.

Like a responsibility.

Yeah, responsibility, that I had to be more successful than my predecessors, more successful than my,

I'm a fourth generation on that line of the business.

And it was really confusing because on one end, I wanted to

grow and be more.

And on the other end, I wanted to do my own thing.

And

since since very early, I strived to get the best grades, and I did.

I strived to go to the best college, and I did.

I strived to get the cutest girl, and I did, and had like all these things that were so relevant for me.

And it was a lot of running.

It's almost like I'm hearing your story for the first time, which I kind of like because I'm interviewing you.

And I'm just realizing how much more courage it takes to let something go that was working to a degree.

So a lot of the times people get into spirituality because they're deeply depressed, something's not working.

But in the relative, it was working to a degree.

It was getting you things, and yet there was still, I imagine, a background hum of anxiety or discontentment.

Yeah, I got really good at winning.

And I think what that gave me was the opportunity to, relatively early in life, see that that wasn't giving me what I thought it was going to give me and how impermanent those moments of satisfaction were.

And I think that's part of the challenge that people experience more towards midlife, where where they've gotten to a certain place in their career, and all of a sudden it's like, oh shit, now what?

This didn't do it for me.

And it's like, well, let me go change careers.

Let me go get the car.

Let me go get divorced.

I mean, all these things that for me, that got accelerated a bit because I did have a lot of fuel and capacity to go and achieve and execute.

So I was running, at one point, like 12 different companies, and

I would say probably 11 of them failed.

But it was my way of saying, having FOMO for anything that presented itself.

So if anybody came to me with an idea, like, yes, we're doing it.

I had to keep like a sheet back before Excel even was common ground, writing down because I lost track of the businesses that I had.

And it was fun, but hard.

And the motivation behind it was one that was really thirsty.

And I would always

make sure that I was seen in it.

So I really perfected this quality of

notice all these things and how amazing I am.

And what that brought up was I would see other people that were more successful than me in whatever category I valued, whether that was financial or otherwise.

And it would bring up this intense contraction in my body and it's like must run faster, not there yet.

Yeah, competition.

Yeah.

I remember before I had started my business and started doing well, I used to tell myself that you had just like hit financial success, that you had won.

And so that's why it was easier for you.

Like I made that excuse up.

And then I started looking at other people in your lineage.

It was like, well, that wasn't all of their story.

And then I hit a level of success and was like, oh, it's not about the outer world.

It really, you take the same programming to the next level of success.

And I had to walk that journey to really discover that.

But I apologize because I really...

use that as an excuse not to feel confronted with my own patterning or my own competition that I had in my early 20s when we met.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think one of the things that happened is that oftentimes when we hit that wall, we'll turn our attention to things that are more important.

A balanced life, a quality time with those we love, experiences, spirituality, consciousness, which is wonderful.

But we are still, if we're still operating from that same orientation of

not okay here, must get there, then we're just, we just changed channels.

And I changed channels.

And spirituality became the new carrot, the new win I would pursue.

And I would see these enlightened masters, and I was like, okay, they've got it.

And if I run fast enough and if I win here,

that'll be it.

Then I'll be really special.

And then I'll never be abandoned.

I'll be really valuable.

And people will look at me and say, wow.

And I won't feel sad and alone.

And I won't meet this deep

hole in the pit of my being that I was trying to escape my whole life.

So taking that same operating system, searching outward and now towards enlightenment.

Yeah.

And so then what?

Well, that had a lot of fuel.

And it pointed me in the direction of what I originally thought was happiness, joy,

escaping, transcending.

And I ran really quick in that direction.

And as you know, we committed a lot of time to sitting in silence, going to dozens of silent retreats, just really

head down, pedal to the metal.

We're storming the gates of heaven here.

And that was incredibly valuable.

I don't know how necessary it was, but for my own personal unraveling, it was valuable.

What did awakening mean to you in the beginning?

And what does it mean to you now?

Because I think we would play around with different terms.

Yeah.

And I don't think we all mean the same thing.

Yeah, when I was chasing enlightenment or awakening, I think I thought it to be this state

where I would then

be in a constant experience of oneness.

Because I had many moments of spiritual insights and revelation, even since I was young, where I remember like just

everything seeming more vibrant and alive and just feeling things differently and almost like that veil of separation fading.

And I thought that that was what enlightenment was.

I'm going to get there and that's that's going to be my experience all the time.

And what I've realized is that that was still very much focused on a someone, getting somewhere, experiencing a something.

And that whole construct is what we awaken out of.

Say more, because I think this is really going to, the more we ground this for people, I think the easier it is.

Yeah,

awakening, we can buy into all these concepts, particularly if we've been seeking for a while and if we're spiritually oriented, we can make it mean so many things.

But in its simplest way, for me,

it's very much a

arriving so

much into the moment that the discovery, instant to instant, becomes the lived mystery.

It's not a something that is achieving.

It's not a state that we're maintaining.

It's a hollowing out of the structures that keep us looking somewhere else.

I think spirituality, we're really what we're talking about is being and becoming to some degree, right?

And the becoming is in the realm of

our human stories and our experience.

Even if that becoming is becoming more awake, becoming more enlightened, becoming more conscious, whatever those are, it's still very much then and there.

When we realize that

what we are has always been here

and that no amount of becoming was ever going to deliver that.

When we really stumble on that revelation,

it's both like, huh, it's not the grand like, oh my God, of some of those big spiritual insights.

There are some of those and those are incredibly valuable, but it's the simplicity of it that is so daunting.

I think one of the biggest revelations that I had and you are pointing to was these chasing of states.

I get really spiritually high and then then think that was it.

Rather than the deeper inquiry of let what comes come, let what goes goes, find out what remains.

The simplicity you're speaking of in every moment.

I can't be more of what I am at some points and other points.

And so chasing this spiritual high was a cul-de-sac that I was just looping in.

And I remember you pointed to that.

We have this beautiful teacher, Arya Shanti, who has been a guide for us.

And he's now in retirement.

And just having that pointing to really supported me being like oh no it's here now oh no it's here now even in this everything is the one it's not some things it's all of it and it's this backdrop of awareness this foundation of what is and so

are there any other cul-de-sacs or misunderstandings that you see people think enlightenment is like who is enlightened?

I think

that is the tricky one, right?

There is still this

identity with the one that is experiencing something.

And then sometimes we think that we need to completely lose the ego or the me.

But in reality,

in that recognition, that the me is just a part of the one,

this egoic construct is just one way in which life gets to experience itself.

The embodied awakening

is one that recognizes how much space is already available, how much freedom, how much permission is already given to whatever is here.

And if what's here is contraction, if what's here is wanting to get somewhere else, if what's here, all of that is already allowed.

And recognizing that we are that field of allowance, that's powerful.

And then what do I do?

And then when the mind kicks in, yeah, okay, sure, but I've got bills to pay, I've got this, I've got children, I've got.

And that was my excuse for a long time.

I postponed and said, well, yeah, I hear you, it's here already, great.

Nothing to do.

Yeah, nothing to do.

And yet, here I am getting triggered and having to navigate my life and having kids back then, now they're teenagers and running businesses.

And

that's fine for the monasteries.

And what I'm really here to say is it's available everywhere in the middle of the chaos.

In the trigger.

Yeah.

And I think part of the challenge challenge is that we hold it as something so precious, so unique and so special, so reserved for those that have committed their lives to sort of silence to those monks.

Yeah, it's here.

And

I think we're very well versed in psychology, particularly at saying, look inward, right?

And it's become clichéd.

I'm just thinking another misunderstanding that I caught on was that if I'm fully realized, if I wake up to myself more fully, I wouldn't be triggered

that I bought into that.

And I think that's another thing just to question and look through.

And I want to double-click on what you said earlier.

It's like there's this idea that then the sense of me of separation would go away versus it being waking up to the sense of me and not so much holding on to that as truth, but it still can be here.

Thoughts, feelings, all of that is still here.

The personality is still here.

Can you speak more to this?

Yeah, yeah, I think it's unconditional.

These deep revelations to who and what we are make our conditioning simpler,

more translucent, if you may,

less sticky, only because we make it mean less about a someone.

This is not so personal, it's not such a big deal.

When I had a strong spiritual, I probably still have a strong spiritual identity, but when that was associated with this sense of me,

And I would get exposed

as

triggered or whatever it would be.

He would be challenging that, right?

And that just in itself created the stickiness.

Now, when it's palms open like this, and there's a trigger that happens, and there's no defending or aggrandizing a particular identity,

it's just like, oh, trigger happened to this conditioned personality.

It's less rules, less ideas of how things should be.

I'm curious how you see the intersection between spirituality and psychology.

You know, I think some of us that are spiritually oriented think that we are going to enlighten, as we've been speaking of,

and that'll deal away with all of our humanity and we'll be great and perfect.

And those that go more down the spiritual path or the psychological path think that they're going to heal enough

to sort of resolve all of their humanity.

And these are both two paths that are innocently trying to

sort of avoid what is.

And if spirituality or psychology are either used as tools of avoidance, then you're just trapped in this egoic construct that's pretending to know better.

But if we're able to recite in this spiritual context and bring our humanity so intimately close,

where we get to pick up the pieces that are wounded, that are sort of disoriented, disenfranchised,

and we reclaim them and redeem them and recognize them as already perfect.

That's spiritual psychology.

It's reminding those little parts of our humanity of their already infinite and perfect nature.

Human being.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The divinity within the humanity, you said.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Break it down for us, your healing process.

There's a trigger that happens.

What next?

What's your process?

Yeah, I wouldn't even call it healing anymore.

Okay.

Yeah, I would just, you know what?

The image just came up.

It's like a soup where ingredients get dropped into the soup and they just become part of the soup.

I am this embodying this soup-ness.

So I go through something that's going on in life and there's an emotional contraction because I get triggered because you don't want to play with me.

And it triggers my wounding, my psychological part that didn't feel wanted when I was young, right?

And it felt that important with my dad.

So I can, in that moment, I can sort of track that experience directly in my body.

And it's an energetic and I can feel it.

And then I drop in so

curiously into it.

And anybody listening to this can try it with whatever experience is.

It can be positive, it can be negative.

It's like, how curious can I get with what is here?

And then that trigger becomes an invitation for more connection, for more intimacy, for life to get itself even

more.

And I am attentive to any kind of agenda to say, oh, I'm feeling this and I need to do something so that I stop feeling it.

When in reality, it's like, no, let me be so welcoming that this has an open door policy in this system.

that it can show up whenever it wants to.

And then I can deal with it relationally.

That doesn't mean that

I'm not able to give feedback.

But then I'm able to give feedback from a place that is not charged and energetically heavy.

And I think that's very different than how I used to approach my triggers.

When I used to get triggered, it was like, oh, shoot, here's this thing again.

It's back up.

I thought I had dealt with it.

Let me go and do what I have to do, all my psychological training to get rid of it.

And spiritually, I would say, I'm not really getting rid of it.

I'm loving it.

But then it's like, let me love it to death.

Yeah.

Yeah.

walk us through the story with Mila in a more recent trigger.

Oh, yeah, that's another fallacy of awakening, right?

We think that if we are living in this place of residing in this awakened recognition, that we won't experience things as strongly.

And I originally, part of my motivation was like, make this hurt less.

And I had a situation with our oldest where she was having a fight with her sister, younger sister, and it was something girl clothing catastrophe.

And I did the very smart decision to get in the middle of it and

suggested something that obviously didn't sit well with her, and she kicked me out of her room.

And I have such a close relationship with her, as you know, and it's the first time that she's actually kicked me out of her room, and it deeply hurt.

And I so I walked out of the room, really hurt,

and I went into my car, I went outside, I sat in in my car, and I bawled.

And I cried.

I don't think I had ever cried like that.

Like just a heartache.

I let the

that pierce me so deeply.

And I realized that I had obviously experienced moments that had been a lot more hurtful in my life, but I was always trained to somehow karate my way around them.

And I would do that through blaming them, through being a victim, through shutting down, through closing my heart, through even healing it, and seeing, what does this mean about me?

And how do I resolve this?

Why did I get triggered?

But in this moment, it was just like,

how deeply can I experience heartache?

And it took me down to this pit of sorrow.

You would imagine like the worst thing had happened to me.

But it gave me access to that place that I had never actually,

like almost like I rappelled down to this cavernous place that I'd never met before.

Abandonment.

Yeah.

Yeah, I didn't even label it.

It was just like

pure raw sensation, energy.

Beautiful.

What happened as a result of that?

The tears of sadness turned into tears of joy.

That's when you know you've really touched it to the core.

Yeah.

That the thing that you are avoiding actually becomes the thing you deeply desire.

Yeah, and now then this thing that I had managed my whole life around, which was heartache, it's like, oh, make sure you do this so you don't get hurt, so you don't this.

It's like, oh, I get to experience heartache so deeply

and there's joy at the core of it?

Wow.

And then it's like, oh, what else is there joy at the bottom of, you know, what else haven't I allowed myself to experience?

And it can be

from the really big experiences to the really subtle and mundane ones.

I had never experienced truly hunger or tiredness.

I had always experienced the desire for hunger to stop or desire for tiredness to stop.

It's like, oh, well, let me go get a coffee or let me go take a nap or

let me eat if I'm hungry.

It's almost like the itch had always been associated with the scratch, whatever that was.

And then I drop into the body and experience hunger directly and the aliveness inside of that sensation.

It's living

openness.

Yeah.

Undefended heart.

Yeah.

Freedom.

Yeah.

Openness.

And that's something that has been wonderful in relationship.

When I feel something between us, I notice that the impulse to close down is an immediate reaction.

But if instead of doing that, I move in closer, which sometimes feels like death,

yeah.

It's like what?

And yet, if I move in closer and open my heart, it's wonderful.

It's very rewarding.

Yeah.

And I get more of what I want.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You're good at it.

And I would just encourage people to lean in when it feels safe in that relationship to start there.

Imagine having a fulfilling career doing what you love, working from anywhere in the world, setting your own hours while making good money and a big impact.

If that lights you up, then I'm super excited to share with you today's sponsor, the Institute for Coaching Mastery.

This is my robust, accredited, year-long certification program for newer seasoned coaches, therapists, leaders, and those just looking to up-level their life in a profound way.

We have an amazing community of students from all around the world who have really started their journey to expand with us both personally and professionally.

And this experience is designed to give you the three things that you need to thrive.

So first you have all of the tools and support you need to move past what's been holding you back so that you can completely change the trajectory of your life.

And then you learn how to masterfully and confidently facilitate transformation with your clients or your team, regardless of your niche, if you want to do health, business, relationship, or you just have no idea yet, we hold your hand through that.

And then lastly, you'll receive my six-figure and beyond signature roadmap that's customizable to meet you wherever you are.

So whether you want to do high-ticket sales, online marketing, or you just want to hit six-figures without ever needing to go on social media, we've got you covered.

And this truly is the most rewarding work in the world.

We have new students now who have a waitlist of dream clients in under a year.

We also have seasoned students who are doing $80,000 months.

And this is really about creating lasting transformation from the inside out so that you can share your gifts and serve the world in all the ways that you're called to.

And I've seen firsthand the power of what happens when you have the community to collaborate with, but you also have the right tools and resources to really thrive.

And so whether you want to do your own personal development, you're wanting to become a coach, or you're just looking for a cutting edge approach to really grow your business, the Institute for Coaching Mastery is for you.

You are held every single step of the way.

And so if you want to get behind the scenes access to the Institute with three proven transformational tools for free to help you create the business and life you love, all you have to do is go to alistenobriga.com forward slash tools, or you can find us at alissenobriga.com forward slash apply now to see all the details and apply today.

You've mentioned this a few times.

I think it's good to kind of highlight, but I think a lot of people get into spirituality as a way to opt out of their human experience.

And then you go deeper into it and you realize it's about fully opting in.

And I want to talk about spiritual bypass because a lot of people use concepts that they hear spiritually as a way to avoid and bypass.

Can you highlight or speak to this a bit more?

Yeah, I think there's wisdom sometimes in spiritually bypassing.

You know, sometimes our system can't handle things and it's not ready to handle things.

And it's like, okay, let me opt out for a moment.

Let me go into this concept of it's all divine, it's all love, it's all God.

And that's a very smart coping mechanism at some point, right?

And it can be a transcendent quality.

And even in

the journey of awakening, there is a period of time when the revelation of who we are and by definition who everyone else is makes everything so light

that all the stories start losing meaning.

And it's a very comfortable place for the ego to be.

Not to diminish the value of those experiences and that level of revelation, but it's like, oh,

nothing is true, nothing is real, it's all illusion, it's all a dream, oh my god, this is

and

it becomes a little bit of a hiding place.

So I am meeting humanity and relationships and all of this with almost like a comfy distance.

Analyzing it, being above it.

Yeah.

Separate.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's it's a natural state.

You know, it's a natural part of the process, I think, certainly was for me.

And then at some point, something happens where it matures.

And you realize that this spiritual heart just wants to dive in deeply into it.

And it's very counter, right?

It's like I spent all this energy trying to escape and sort of not deal with this and not suffer.

And now you're inviting me back into the den of the lion?

And that's just what it does.

And that is sometimes what I think is often missed in spiritual context.

That

second part of the circle, which is

a continuous opening

to that intensity and aliveness that is always available.

Yeah.

And I just am hearing a clear sign just to speak to, because there are people can have psychotic breaks and go to the den and that depth very

fiercely without safety.

And I would say that as you embody what you are more fully, as you wake up to what you are, that is the safest, most healing, nourishing nervous system regulation.

So just to remind people to make sure that there's some level of attunement to an awakeness of who and what you are or psychological safety when doing some of the deeper work.

Because you're right, there can be a place for bypass.

You can consciously say, this isn't healthy for me to go into that right now.

I don't don't have enough resource or nourishment.

And I think you and I are both a fan of Ken Wilbur's work around growing up, or at least the frame growing up and waking up.

Because you can be totally awake and have a really messed up life.

And you can have a really perfect life in terms of, you talk about this example of living in a jail where your jail cells really clean, but you're still in jail.

So you're not awake to who and what you are.

But just to remind people to really have a level of nourishment in nervous system regulation as you do some of the deeper shadow work to meet the disenfranchised parts of yourself and the energy and different shadow work is going to be really helpful.

Just as a psychotherapist, I fulfill my responsibility to speak to that.

Yeah, and not that, you know, and it's not ultimately that anything bad would happen, but it can just be a lot more graceful in terms of the integration.

I know you also talk about different types of surrender.

Can you talk to us about that?

Yeah.

So I think there are different types of surrender.

And when I hear the word surrender, and there's a popular sort of book about surrender and living from this place,

I would misconstrue it to mean something that I think I understand now very differently.

So let me elaborate.

There's the surrender where you hit rock bottom, right?

That surrender where the rug gets pulled under your feet.

And we know people that have gone through those processes, right?

Where whether it's alcoholism or just life circumstances, and they take you to a place where you're just defeated and you're on the floor metaphorically or literally,

and

you see through the

fact that your strategies are not going to continue working.

And if you are graced in those moments by not

sort of have the new strategy come up, but there's enough momentum in there to really unravel, that's the kind of surrender that is incredibly powerful.

Now, I don't recommend that path.

That's certainly not one option.

I don't necessarily endorse that that's the one you should go pursue.

Then there's the other surrender, which I think we can call the spiritual conditional surrender, the one that's in mainstream spiritual conversations.

Like, just surrender, let go, let it be, let go, the God, thy will.

And that's lovely as a concept, but it's, it's,

we're really what we're saying, or at least what I was saying, and what I've noticed a lot of people say when they're saying that we're gonna surrender is like I'll surrender as long as

I'll surrender as long as it's gonna be okay Wherever you find you're okay, maybe that my soul is gonna be okay.

I'll surrender because I know that and you know in some traditions It's like I'll surrender because my next life is gonna be better and it's always this way in which we condition our surrender It's almost like those trust falls, you know, and and you have your friends behind you and you're gonna do this total surrender And before you drop, you kind of look back and make sure that they're there, and you kind of give them that look and kind of say, You better not drop me, kind of surrender.

That's like, yeah, I'll surrender to the degree that I trust that there's a net, that you're gonna catch me.

Because that's the ego trying to surrender.

Because the ego is looking for safety.

Yeah.

But there is no safety.

Period.

There is no ultimate safety.

All of our strategies for control are trying to get something that does not exist.

We are this human body that is fragile, that will die.

No safety.

In that world, in that dimension.

In any dimension.

Let's unpack that.

Safety is only from the perspective of someone that wants an outcome that is

controlled.

Okay.

To me, safety is presence.

So maybe it's just a different definition.

Yeah, maybe.

To me, the idea of safety is: let me control circumstances so who I think I am is okay.

Yeah, that yame will never.

Never.

So that's the conditional surrender.

And then there's the other surrender where I think a lot of our

true spirituality takes us to the edge of the cliff.

We think we can surrender, but we won't.

But we'll be able to stay at the edge of the cliff.

And when grace shows up and gives us the nudge,

we'll have a millisecond of capacity to say, okay.

And that's a surrender that is not rooted in any rationale or any conditioning.

And to me, that's the purpose of seeking.

That's the purpose of

what we're doing in our spiritual path.

Show up

and

be prepared for when

that moment arrives, that you're

really able to let all of who you think you are unravel.

Was there a story in your own journey that you can share about that?

Yeah, there have been many little ones.

One that comes to mind, I was on a nine, ten day silent retreat

and it was probably about day six

and

I was tired.

I wasn't sleeping so well.

That's a great place to be.

What happens in silent retreats is that all of your stuff, all of my stuff comes up, right?

And all of the ways in which I manage around it, some of those strategies are seen more clearly.

And at some point, I felt like I was at a bar

and I was looking for my next drink as an alcoholic.

And I had that moment of thinking, like,

shit, it's never going to be enough.

Like the searching for more spiritual enlightenment, more whatever in life, because people search in relationships and money and success.

Yeah.

In this situation, I was actually experiencing deep discomfort.

And it was a combination of jealousy and a combination of just not feeling good enough.

And I had always found ways to stay just above it.

And in that moment,

I lost.

So it wasn't a

spiritual moment of, like, oh, let me feel I really saw that I could not win.

And how I describe it, it's almost like if my whole life had been this balloon that I was continuously inflating,

and I was inflating it with accomplishments, with achievements, with being seen a certain way, with all these things that made my balloon grow to a certain degree.

And I felt good about myself in terms of how big my balloon was at any given point compared to how I thought it should be or how other balloons were.

But it always had this little pinprick hole in it.

So I would be blowing in

credits while fighting this constant force that was pulling the air out.

So it was this continuous struggling and striving.

And in this retreat experience,

what seemed to have has happened is that this hole kind of became a gash.

So this balloon that was so precious to me all of a sudden lost its entire container.

And all of its contents were...

had no place to be held.

And all my fuel that was dedicated to inflating it had nowhere to go.

And it's almost like one of those pilots in a stove, like the

pilot just got snuffed out, like,

and no matter how much gas comes out, no fire.

And that was very strange and new

and disorienting, but disorienting in a way that it wasn't uncomfortable.

It was like

spacious, vast,

what, now what?

but it didn't really matter.

I think a lot of people get to that place and then go to meaninglessness.

Yeah.

Can you speak to that?

Because I don't want people to get stuck there.

It's easy to have meaninglessness.

And the reality is that there is a meaninglessness.

Yeah.

Things lose meaning and it's comfortable.

You know, it's comfortable to some degree and it's uncomfortable in another degree, right?

If the mind kicks back in and starts trying to make it wrong, it'll find all sorts of reasons why it's wrong.

And it'll go into hopelessness or meaninglessness or despair or whatever it is.

And it doesn't feel like the whole thing collapsed, if that's still happening.

Okay.

Yeah, because some people also go through depression and they've had their whole life around achievement.

And then it's just like seeing through the game and being like, what?

Yeah, that's a psychological experience, in my sense.

That's a logical, rational, like, oh,

okay, this is not going to do it for me.

Shit, crisis.

So for that person that is listening and is there,

what would you say?

It's a a great place to be.

That hopelessness is your rock bottom, metaphorically speaking.

And all you want to do is find a way to get back up.

But if you're able to stay in that space of hopelessness and meet hopelessness and see truly through the whole mechanism

that you've been oriented your whole life, then hopelessness can be used to unravel that which has always been okay.

And to meet hopelessness as a direct experience, not as a story in your mind, because that's where you start looping again and again.

That's right.

That's right.

What does hopelessness feel like in your body in that moment, in this moment, directly?

That divinity meeting your humanity fully.

Yeah.

But it's a hard thing, right?

It's a challenge because

we've been trained to not experience hopelessness.

or despair or whatever it may be.

And I think a lot of the times it's the resistance to feeling something that is harder than the direct experience of it.

Yeah.

Whatever the emotion or experience is, sensation.

Yeah, I often I'm really busy with things and the kids and picking up and doing things and

I find myself in mind like busy and then I just drop into the moment at any given moment.

It's like, oh, it's right here.

What is true right now?

At the core of all of this is this longing, this desire for truth.

What is true?

Whatever you want to call it, maybe liberation, but at the core is what is true.

And no one can tell you what's true, right?

Except, what is true for you right now?

Not what was true then, not what you think should be true.

One of the most important questions

been confronted with is what do I know to be true

to such a degree of certainty that I would bet my loved one's life on it.

Now that really raises the stakes and it starts showing me all the concepts that really don't hold ground when my loved one's life is at stake.

Yeah, it takes you to the edge of your knowing.

Yeah, it's that cliff that we're speaking of.

Right.

And so, for people that have been on the path for a while, they've been seeking, they want to know themselves deeply, they're interested in ultimate freedom.

What do you want to share?

I get it.

And

as convinced as you are that everything you've done is incredibly valuable, you need to be willing to let all of it go.

All your insights, all your revelations,

all your memories and experiences of what you're trying to get back to.

Because that is the phenomenon of the seeker, right?

It's I had it, I lost it.

And it's stopping for a moment.

All that postponement

of who you really are, and using your spiritual longing to pull you back into the source of that longing, longing.

Just reversing that course in this moment right now.

What is it that is longing?

What is it that is seeking?

What is seeing through these eyes?

Yeah.

Because what we see has always changed, right?

What we listen to right now, we're listening to this,

has always changed.

But that which is doing the listening, that which is seeing, that has never not been here.

For those watching, I'm having one of those moments that we go into

where it feels like there's just this deep seeing and it's almost like a paintbrush has just washed through everything.

It's very compelling to think that this is it.

Yeah.

One of the greatest gifts I got in one of the last retreats I went was that I had a very powerful experience of oneness, where I was out in the forest and I was one with everything.

There was no the trees were alive, I was the trees, it was all so vibrant.

And I was simultaneously aware that it was just an experience.

And at the moment it was strange.

But then later I realized it was this amazing gift

saying even that

it's just form, the most precious, most insightful, just an appearance.

Just a wave.

Nothing to hold on to.

No one to hold on to it.

Yeah.

And it's similar in relationship.

Like when it's really seen through,

there's so much misunderstanding that happens in relationship.

People searching for a relationship to give them something so they feel whole.

When that's woken up to.

When we realize we are the source of love, that we project what we are onto everything.

It is, it is.

Then people ask, how do you choose a a partner?

And it's so

unromantic and so much more freeing to just align with seeing everyone as the one.

And to align, for us, it was a lot about it being out of our control, just the surrender of, and it's still a story.

It's still, you know, even in our vows, it was like, I will let go of who I've imagined you to be and wake up to you anew.

And the willingness to let each other go.

Yeah,

yeah, that's profound.

And

I know that when I made those vows, there was an element of safety in that.

An element of I'm fully here until I'm not, which I think is beautiful and it just depends where it's coming from.

And if I'm really honest right now, There's a small slight piece that keeps its

I don't even know that that's totally accurate, but I guess what I'm really trying to say is that there is currently a maturing in that experience of relating to you, even from that place of knowing that this is all just that

that really claims you, that really leans in, that really is like

so.

It's almost like this

freedom that I thought was going to liberate me from my preferences is

more fully embodying my preferences.

And it's maybe more fully embodying my preferences because there's also a knowing that it's all okay.

So it's almost like

you manage your preferences when you don't know if you're going to get them, because if you don't get them, you'll be hurt or disappointed.

But if you don't mind getting hurt or disappointed, then you don't have anything to manage.

Freedom.

Yeah, that is freedom.

And the realization that someone else doesn't give you something.

You are me.

There's no separation.

And in that, there's more freedom.

There's no managing, control, manipulation.

Everything that I thought somebody else gave me was me already.

And so there's a deeper freedom in that.

And there's stages of this.

But then you'll end up lining up with people who match your values.

And maybe you have some non-negotiables.

You want to be in partnership with somebody that will help.

meet you spiritually elevate a deeper knowing and embodiment of what you are.

Maybe that's important, but it's less romantic and it's more

poetic and it's more,

it's a bigger love affair with all of life, self-love, all of life, not just egoic special love to certain people that match or you think you're going to get your needs met.

And so I didn't mean to go there, but it just, you know, it's awake.

It's here now in this.

And it applies to business.

It applies to parenting.

It applies to everything.

Tell me in business how what you've realized shows up differently now than before.

I don't know that it's that different in form.

Yes.

It's very different in experience.

Similarly, to relationally, I'm able to

venture into things with this deep curiosity and interest

while simultaneously knowing that it's just a story.

There's like a holding of it lightly.

I experience you holding it lightly.

Yeah.

And it's very strange, it's paradoxical, it's like deep care and deep blah.

Like from one perspective, it doesn't really matter.

And from another perspective,

which is not different, just another side of that coin, deep care for things, deep care for people.

I find myself caring more deeply for humans than actually for animals too lately

than I ever have.

And I think that's partly why these teachings were reserved for people that were really committed to this path before.

You had to spend many years before you had access to these kinds of teachings.

And there was a wisdom in that because for an ego, the idea that it really doesn't matter,

that it's all one, that it's a story, that it's all an illusion, all those things, it's like free reign.

So you had to really spend time in a monastery or in the mountains or wherever it was,

learning under a teacher teacher before you had access to this level of exposure.

And now we can get it everywhere on YouTube or anywhere.

So I think it's important to be attentive to those parts of the ego that want to hijack this and still use it in its own little and to stay true.

Yeah.

To really honor your truth over any teacher teaching that you have that orientation and a knowing you already are awake and to trust that above all else.

Because any good teacher is going to point you back to yourself.

Yeah.

I know I asked you about a poem because I like your poetry.

Are you open to sharing one with me?

Yeah, I found one that I can share.

One of the things that really

unraveled things for me was a...

And a part of what I really like is that my mind is very skeptical.

So.

You also have an engineer mind.

You really see things in a different way.

I get curious and I'm like,

let me slow that down and really check it for myself.

So anyone that's listening to this, that this feels metaphysical or ethereal, it's actually quite the opposite.

It's very rational.

And I used my rational mind to take me to the edge of what it understands.

And I used my rational mind to say, okay, this concept of time, we talk about be here now, the present.

And it's like, where is this present?

Let me really try to find it.

Because I identify it as this line with a future over there, a past over there, and the present somewhere in the middle.

Linear.

Yeah, and then

where is this present in the middle that I need to be available for?

And it's like, well, it's here.

And it's like, well, is it really here?

Like, well, I'm feeling something, but by the time I'm feeling something,

it's sort of neurological impulses that went up to my brain.

that are telling me that I'm feeling something.

So that's already in the past.

So anytime I'm trying to be here,

I'm just catching up to what just happened.

And what just happened is in my memory.

It's not here anymore.

So then I'm continuously in memory, recalling what is.

So then what is

truly here that is not dependent on memory?

That's the construct of time that starts really falling apart.

Like if every thought I have about anything, including what is,

is a fabrication of my memory or a recollection, which can be altered,

then what is true?

And then this time, which acts like a canvas for our stories, because we need a past, we need a future for our stories.

If that's not

solid,

then all these stories have nowhere to stand.

And that's a more advanced inquiry.

It's advanced to the degree that you're willing to stay with it.

That there's not even a now.

Because the moment you think it's now, it's already past and filtered.

And I remember with our oldest, when they were, when the kids were younger, they didn't understand the concept of time.

So there's the psychological time that's made up, and it's very obvious with kids.

And I remember thinking, do I teach them?

Do I miss it or ruin them?

But it feels like a stage of evolution, egoically.

And ego, not bad, but to see, to play in the world of time, but then to wake up beyond the illusion of time is a more mature or advanced inquiry.

Yeah, it's super functional.

I mean, thank God I think in terms of time.

Like, I wouldn't do anything if

I didn't have a linear understanding.

This is how this 3D world operates with past, present, and future, and that's phenomenal.

But when we are not bound by that, and it doesn't take a metaphysical or spiritual approach.

It takes just a very inquisitive, scientific approach almost, of like, let me get very granular here with what really is here in my direct experience.

And when I'm not going to my memory to tell me what is here, even if it's my immediate memory, then what is here?

And I give a reference to people of like, imagine there's a water faucet, right?

And there's water coming out of the faucet.

And by the time you're catching the water, it's already left the faucet.

So this now is almost like at the mouth of the faucet, the water emerging.

You can't catch it.

You can't conceptualize the now.

It's this continuous unfoldment that is happening here.

It's formlessness giving birth to form.

Timelessness giving birth to time.

And to be able to embody time from a ground of timelessness, a formlessness, that's incredible.

I know you and I both value self-inquiry, questioning who am I.

Will you share the story that you've shared around

identifying who you are if you're in the hospital?

Something I used to do to the kids where I was like, Okay, who are you?

And they're like, Well,

I'm me.

I was like, Oh, yeah, you're you.

You're pointing to the body.

So I was listening.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

So that they would point to their bodies.

I was like, Oh, great.

So you're your body, okay.

And anybody listening to this or seeing this, just do it on your own.

Okay, so where are you, right?

This me that you reference a million times a day.

Where is this me?

Where is this I?

And you, you know, if you have a sense of self in your body, okay, you point to it.

But try to be very specific.

Where in the body is this I?

And my kids, the kids would say, well, it's everywhere.

Everywhere.

It's like sometimes it head, sometimes heart, sometimes.

And then I would go through this exercise of like, okay, I'm going to cut your arms off.

Is there still an eye?

And they'd be like, yeah.

Okay.

Got no arms, I'm cutting your legs now.

Still an eye?

Yeah.

Okay.

I am chopping your abdomen.

We're getting very close to the chest.

Still an eye.

Yeah.

And start taking pieces out.

And all of a sudden I would take their eyes out and I'd be like, okay, is there still an eye?

Like, no, no more eye.

It's like, oh, so your eye was in your eyes.

Like, no, no, I guess there's still, there still is an eye.

And your ears and your nose.

And eventually, if we slowed it down, we would end up with a brain and a heart.

And they still think it was an eye, right?

And then I'd substitute the heart with like a machine that was pumping.

And there was still an eye.

And then the brain sort of took out pieces of the brain.

And it's this ever-elusive eye

that we take as such

for granted.

We don't question

this sense of self that we operate out of, that our whole experience of being humans is based on.

And something so fundamental goes unquestioned for most of our lives.

And this is the invitation.

That is the invitation.

Not to find the answer, but to live that question.

To sit at the edge of that cliff in that question and let grace reveal what's always been true.

And for those who are very mental,

the notice different stories that come up and be in the stillness and in the silence.

And just get curious that it doesn't need to come.

The answer is not going to come in thought.

But what is your direct experience when you remove all of the stories and identities of who we've thought we've been?

Yeah.

Use your mind.

Unit as an experiment, use it as this tool.

One of the most praised teachers in non-duality, Ramana Maharishi, would say that the mind is like a stick that you use to toss the fire.

And eventually, even the stick goes, but you use it.

Beautiful.

Yeah.

Do you want to share that poem or do you feel complete?

I can share it.

Okay.

It's ten pages.

No, I'm kidding.

Formless grabs the hand of form

and lets it take it on a stroll.

Formless goes where it is taken.

It knows these streets, it knows them all.

Form is looking for a something it once heard would make it whole.

But all this searching and this looking began to take its toll.

One lucky night it lost its balance and had a fatal fall.

Formless grabs the hand of form

and takes it out to play.

But now, this form seems different.

It lets formless show the way.

Beautiful.

Thank you.

Just in closing, if you could whisper one truth into the heart of everyone on the planet,

what would it be?

Notice what's already awake

and place your attention there.

I love you.

I love you, baby.

And I know you have a book.

And I know that

you are available to serve and support in different ways.

Talk to us about your book and where people can stay connected for those that are interested.

Yeah, it's

emiliosbook.com.

It's a website.

Called The Mystery of You.

That's the book, yeah.

Freedom is closer than you think.

Yeah.

And that's on Amazon.

And I have some blogs.

And I'm currently running the University of Santa Monica where we teach spiritual psychology.

You can check that out.

Gousm.edu.

Beautiful.

We'll put all the links here below.

I love you.

Me too.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for doing this work that changes the world starting with yourself.

It truly does make a difference.

And if you're finding value in this podcast, a cost-free way to support us is by following us.

It does help us grow and we are so grateful.

Leave a review on Apple or Spotify.

Submit a screenshot of that and upload it to alyssinabriga.com forward slash podcast.

As a thank you gift, we will be sending you one of the most powerful tools that you can use on any area of your life to help you tap into your full potential so that you don't let fear hold you back from really stepping into your dreams.

I have so much more magic I want to share with you and I cannot wait to do that soon.

But for now, I just want to say thank you so much for being an example of what it's like to live with an open heart and mind in the world.