Why Love Fails: Dating Myths, Breakups + Healing With Sabrina Zohar | EP 95

What are some of the most damaging advice around modern dating that we should be aware of?

There's so many things.

The right person for you is just gonna know.

First off, unrealistic expectations.

To me, I think ghosting is wildly misused right now.

And trying to understand them means that I'm trying to avoid the pain that I'm going through.

Right person, wrong time?

No.

What makes them right for you is they're in your life at the right time in the right space.

If I'm staring, wondering why this door isn't opening, I'm not seeing all the windows around me that are also creating new opportunities.

How do you know when to let somebody go?

As much as I love my partner right now, if it doesn't last forever, that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with me.

You've got to go through with withdrawal.

When somebody leaves us, you're craving that familiarity because that gives you dopamine.

And if we can actually stop and say, I can give this to myself, you release dopamine.

It allows you to realize you're okay without this person.

I can miss somebody, but that doesn't mean that they're right for me.

When it comes to breakups, what we want to look at is: one, what is the pedestal that we're putting on this person?

And second, what is the story that we created about the breakup and what does that mean about me?

Welcome back to the Healing and Human Potential podcast.

In this episode, we're unpacking how to navigate breakups, spot red flags early, and dating in modern times.

Today's guest is Sabrina Zohar, who's a renowned dating coach and relationship strategist who's redefining modern love with her Nobias approach.

Super fiery, super fun.

And she's here to help you move past outdated advice, heal emotional wounds, and navigate dating with authenticity and confidence.

This conversation is where modern dating meets personal transformation.

I'm excited to get into it.

Sabrina, I'm so happy that you're here.

Oh my goodness.

I just love so much about you.

And the more I get to know you, the more I'm loving you.

And one of the things I really appreciate is just like your direct approach to modern dating and just tell it like it is.

Don't beat around the bush.

And I'm sure you hear lots of advice around modern dating.

What are some of the most damaging advice that you hear that we should be aware of?

Well, first of all, so excited to be here as well.

God, my brain just went into 30 different directions because I think what I hear more often than not is a couple of things.

One, we're romanticizing something that doesn't exist.

So they're like, if you have a fight, they're not for you.

If they trigger you, that's not your person.

The right person for you is just going to know.

Okay, so first off, unrealistic expectations.

All of those.

Then I see this amalgamation of be somebody different than who you are in order to get what it is that you want.

Be the black cat, not the golden retriever.

Play this game, do this.

And I think at the core of it, if I could put it into one thing, we are so disconnected from ourselves, but yet we're seeking this connection with other people.

And I think that there is this grave difference in what it is that we want versus what we need.

And I'm just, there's so many things.

Yeah, I'm just thinking, even if like we're adjusting ourselves so somebody likes us, not only are we abandoning ourselves, but we're never going to feel truly met and chosen.

And then we're not choosing ourselves.

So that's going to be then reflected in everybody else abandoning us because that's what we're doing to ourselves.

100%.

It's like, how can I demand more from other people if I don't do that for myself?

I mean, I was her.

I used to self-abandon like it was nobody's business because I genuinely believed the version of I, who I was, was not the right version that I needed to be because growing up, that was the messaging I received.

There's something wrong with you.

You're too much.

You're not enough, right?

That fun amalgamation.

And so when you've gotten to the dating landscape, all you're doing is, you know, I started my career because I was her.

I was the girl that was listening to the content going, okay, okay, text him this one thing and like be the cool girl.

And then I got a dick pic and I'm like, oh,

wait, but that, that, that didn't go how this person on the internet told me that this was going to get him to not stop thinking about me.

This is what I got.

Grave disconnect.

And then when I realized, wait a minute, if I don't show up as who I am, if I don't show up authentically, like, yeah, I speak a lot, I speak fast, I curse, I have ADHD, my brain works differently than the average person, maybe.

But I knew that if I hide that from my current partner or the people that I'm dating, they were never going to give the opportunity for me to be actually accepted for who I was.

And that started with me because the more I villainize or attack myself or talk negatively to myself, in what world am I going to stand up for myself?

Yeah.

And I think the fact that you fully claim yourself as you are not only makes you more attractive, but then you can actually have a partner that's going to meet you and let yourself receive love.

It's funny because it's so simple, right?

Like when we think about it, we're like, duh, that's the road.

But yet when you're in it, and I think it's really, because it took me a while to figure out, I even said this the other day.

I have an energy reader, like how very LA of me.

And she's more just like, she talks about just like, how are you feeling, right?

There's no future here.

And I kept saying, I need to find myself.

I'm trying to find myself.

And she said, I'm going to stop you right there.

It's not that you need to find yourself.

She goes, you need to learn who you are now.

And she's like, you need to be introduced to the version of you that you are.

It's not that you're lost.

It's that you're meeting this new person.

And once I started to do that and step into that power of, you know, setting boundaries and saying no, that also comes with having to grieve the ending of things.

And I don't think we talk about that enough of, okay, if I'm going to say no to that guy, heterosexual woman, speaking in those norms, if I'm going to say no to this person and say, well, I'm not doing this anymore.

What's going to come with that?

If they leave, either I have an attachment response where I'm like, please don't leave me.

Oh my God, you're my father.

I'm going to be abandoned.

Or I could, you know, go the other way and be like, fine, I don't feel anything.

But if I really want to be in my body and be a present in the moment, then part of standing up for yourself and part of being authentic when it comes to dating and relationship is being able to let people go.

And as much as I love my partner right now, I'm also cognizant and aware that.

if it doesn't last forever, that that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with me.

That's right.

And what helped you in your journey kind of get to where you are now?

I know that it's a consistent journey, but you're more comfortable in yourself and you're owning yourself more fully and you're rediscovering yourself versus playing into these games of how to get the girl or the guy or the person, which a lot is on the internet.

And I think it comes from trauma and wounding and compassionately, but it's like that's never going to end that game.

My dad gave me such good advice when I was in college.

He said, if you play games to get a relationship, you will be in a relationship where you have to play games.

I love that.

And I was like, just straight up good wisdom.

So I'm like, I'm always going to be honest and tell people straight up how I feel in the beginning.

And even with Emilio, my husband, I was just like, this is a for now thing in the very beginning because I didn't recognize it because he wasn't a pattern of my past because I had done so much healing work.

But I'm just curious a little bit about what were some of the things that shifted to help you get more further evolved and healed.

For now is a huge thing.

Definitely accepting and understanding that all I have is for now.

And that doesn't mean that I need to trip up over the future or, oh my God, what if it doesn't work?

So that just even because you said it was such a beautiful place.

For me, I think, God, there's an amalgamation of things, but I think really if I had to put my money money and my dollar on what caused more of the change, it wasn't intellectualizing, yep, therapy was great, don't get me wrong.

And my ketamine treatments and in my inner child, all of these things were incredible tools and aspects that brought me further along.

But when I think about the girl that I was to the woman that I am and how I

made that gap, it was when I started doing more nervous system work, when I started understanding, for instance, I got anxious about something and my friend had stopped and she goes, did you notice that when you had that moment, your shoulders tensed up, did you grab your phone?

And so, even just taking a minute, and I had that pause, taking a pause to be like, Oh, what's happening in my body right now?

That allowed me to connect deeper.

Because then, once I did that, once I was understanding where am I on the spectrum, then I could say, Okay, well, what happened to cause me to get here?

How old do I feel?

What is this reminiscent of?

And in that moment, I could validate my experience of, hey, that was really tough, or that was really mean, what that person said.

I didn't appreciate it, or I miss them, but that doesn't mean I need to do anything about it.

And I think that pause so that I could go inward and not just what am I feeling right now, not just like the rudimentary questions: where is it?

How is it manifesting?

What does it feel like in there?

Does there color?

Is there a shape?

Is there a texture?

And sitting with it allowed me to realize my window of tolerance could be expanded.

And once I started to expand that, and then when a guy didn't text me, it used to send me spiraling.

Oh my God, girl, I tell you.

I was her.

I sexed a guy 173 times after he tried to end it with me after like four dates.

Okay.

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

Got manic, high anxiety.

Yeah.

that pause allowed me to stop and be like, okay, I'm allowed to be upset.

I'm allowed to be bummed.

I'm allowed to be frustrated.

What choices do I have?

And it literally changed everything because I went from reacting to responding and allowing myself to grow and heal, which to me, I think at least, I mean, like I said, therapy, all of the things are great.

What are you doing with it?

Yeah.

And with anxiety specifically, somatic work is even more powerful.

So I love what you're sharing around not going unconscious into a pattern, bringing the energy into the body and realizing you can feel more of that quote-unquote uncomfortable feeling.

So you don't just unconsciously look for your security and okayness in them, which you've probably attracted somebody that was more avoidant because of the patterns of the anxiety.

And so then you're insourcing your okayness, which is powerful.

And to me, that's the root of all healing.

Couldn't agree more.

Yeah.

And I don't know that people really, this is a newer conversation, it feels like.

And it feels like one of the most important conversations in dating, but this applies to all areas of life.

So for people that are breaking up, because I know breakups are a huge pain point.

And sometimes people will say it's like, right person, wrong time.

And I know you're like, nope, wrong person.

How do you know when to let somebody go in your eyes?

And talk to us a little bit about, yeah, just breakups in general, what would help people.

Breakups suck.

There's no other way to say it.

Nobody wants to necessarily end things voluntarily.

Like there's usually a crux or a thing.

And I think something that is hard to kind of wrap our heads around, especially when you're in a breakup, is very rarely do breakups end because of a lack of love.

Very rarely is it because you're like, I hate this person.

Usually you love them, you care for them, but maybe there's an incompatibility.

Maybe you have conflict you're not able to get past, maybe whatever, right?

There's insert, this is the reason.

And I think when we have a breakup, like one, I think more often than not, most people don't really understand how to hold the two conflicting thoughts that I can miss somebody, but that doesn't mean that they're right for me.

I can care for them deeply, but that doesn't mean that this is my future.

And I know that it feels scary and it can feel really hard to let go, especially when no one taught us how to let go.

No one taught us how to grieve the ending of things.

And I think in the space of it ends to where people are usually stuck in the breakups isn't because of the connection.

It's not because of the person.

Because if it were, then we'd be a lot more aware of what that connection was.

It's usually because of the narrative and the story that's being created.

Like in between, they broke up with me and here I am.

I'm hung up on them.

I'm stuck on them.

Usually what I hear is like, I'm never going to find anyone like them.

What was wrong with me?

So it ends up being, oh, this is about me.

It's not actually about this person.

That's right.

Because if it were about them, I've had breakups where we both amicably decided.

I wasn't hung up on this person because we were both adults that made a decision.

When I was hung up on people, it was because I was projecting or I was using my core beliefs as the reason it didn't work.

And I was finding confirmation.

So like making it personal about you.

Yeah.

And then also the death of a future.

So grieving the idea and the expectations that we had about what would happen if we were with them.

And the version of us that felt safe knowing that someone was there.

Because that can feel really unsettling.

And I, again, I've hold so much space.

I know both of us do.

But I also can hold that tough love of like, great.

And I totally get that.

Let's actually understand.

Like I have a client, for instance, I love him, such a great guy.

And he was dating this guy.

And it was as toxic as it comes.

Like everything was super unhealthy.

He was getting vortile and abusive, right?

Like with physical altercations taking place.

And I have a session with him every two weeks.

And at first, it was clockwork.

He would go on the loop.

It would start with how much he hates him.

And then it would go down into, but there's something wrong with me.

But he was the love of my life.

And then we'd go into this.

And it wasn't until I had to stop and say, who are you talking to?

Because more often, he would start to explode at moments.

And he stopped.

He's like, oh my God, I'm talking to my dad.

And I was like, yes.

He's a manifestation of what it is that you didn't have.

And he's a manifestation of what it is that you thought you were worth and deserving of and all of those things.

And I think what a long story, long-winded way of saying when it comes to breakups, what we want to look at is one, what is the pedestal that we're putting on this person?

And second, what is the story that we created about the breakup?

And what does that mean about me?

That's usually where we have more power.

Because when I can start to understand, oh, there's something wrong with me.

I'm not good enough.

Wait a minute.

What facts do I have to back that up?

You know, we start to do the different, all the different processes to understand that.

And it doesn't necessarily mean that the feeling goes away.

Yeah.

That just means that I understand that the feeling doesn't have to do with them.

Yeah.

And so you said two things, but I also heard three, which is, what was the missing experience that I didn't have in childhood?

And how is that being projected onto this current partnership?

Then you realize like that's the core.

And if I'm, now that I see that, I can insource that.

I can give it to myself.

And then I won't put up with anything less than somebody that isn't giving me what I'm already giving me.

And so it's just more natural to move on from that place.

And another thing that you say that I love is that missing somebody is a feeling and staying away from them is a decision.

And so you talk about like giving yourself space away from the partnership.

Talk to us about the importance of it and how people can do that in addition to what we've already talked about in sourcing that love.

How can they do that?

Taking the space.

So Britt Frank, you know, Britt?

I don't know.

Oh my God.

Okay.

Well, you will have to.

I guess they will introduce you guys.

She is neuropsychotherapist, one of my besties, and she's just brilliant.

She has tools for days.

And anytime we always, she says, first things first is when you're doing a breakup, you've got to go through with withdrawal because technically speaking, especially when there's that like addiction or that heaviness, if you are two adults coming together and saying, hey, this doesn't work, great, take your space.

If you can communicate with each other, let's say you have assets, you have children, you have, you know, a house, things like that, I get it.

But if you're dealing with somebody that like, maybe it was a situation ship or it wasn't a healthy ending or this person might have been verbally abusive, whatever, right?

It's not necessarily a mutual healthy decision.

The importance of taking space is one, our dopamine receptors need to be rebalanced.

Let me go neuroscience for a second.

When your cortisol spikes, all of your other neurotransmitters naturally get depleted because your body needs all of its resources to deal with the stressor that it's dealing with.

So when somebody leaves us and already we're in our stress and we're in that, what ends up happening?

You're craving that consist, that familiarity because that gives you dopamine.

And if we can actually stop and say, I can give this to myself, you release dopamine.

And so taking the space, one, it allows you to realize you're okay without this person.

When I take taking the space, let me clarify to anyone that's listening.

That does not mean scrolling and like looking for the dopamine and replacing one pattern to another.

Thank you.

I heard it.

Yeah.

What it means is you don't look at their text.

You don't look at their photos.

You don't look at their social.

You literally detox from this person for a minimum of 21 days to get your dopamine receptors back into balance so you are not beholden onto them.

Like drugs, it's going to suck.

It's going to hurt and it's going to be uncomfortable.

And the reason that we do this is because then in that space, we can start to see what is the narrative that I have been associating with myself and this this relationship without taking the time.

You see it all the time and I do.

They go from relationship to relationship and they're just in another.

And what you do is you're avoiding and you're bypassing the feelings and the processing and being able to just understand how good you are with yourself.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that was such an important part of my healing.

I was in relationships for three years, like on the clock.

And I took nine months to date myself and do some really core deep work with my mom because my mom was my most challenging relationship, which I was really just projecting and playing out with every other man that I was with.

That's why when I attracted my husband, I didn't recognize him because he wasn't that template.

But by doing that, even when I got together with him at three years, I started getting itchy.

I was like, oh, I want to change something.

And I realized I had this unconscious set point to change partners every three years.

So then I was like, well, I'm really happy here.

Maybe we'll change locations.

But I just had to be, and he had kids here.

And so I was like, okay, so I just had to feel and be with all of those uncomfortable sensations.

And then I haven't had, obviously, I've been with him 16 years now, but I haven't had those three-year chunks anymore.

So I think it's seeing it specifically, but also continuously feeling into what we think is uncomfortable because otherwise we just unconsciously recreate the past, different people, same pattern, until we get to see what's the common denominator.

Your three years was my nine months.

Same thing.

It was like at the nine, 10-month mark.

And I think, at least for me in my experience, that the reason I got to that mark is because that's when the fantasy wore off.

It was no longer, for me, I was the, if I just have a boyfriend, I'll be fine.

Yeah.

You know, I just, I just need to be with someone.

So it was this, my mom even said, she was like, you know, the chalk outlines of like the body.

She's like, just insert a different guy with you.

Everyone.

She was like, it's the same thing over and over and over again.

And I was hitting my head up against the rock, wondering why it wasn't bleeding when I was the one.

And it wasn't until I really had to stop because I had a similar experience.

When I met my current partner, Ryan, we've been together two and a half years.

So we passed the nine mark.

And we, every kind of nine, ten months, it comes up and we have to sit and go, are we choosing each other?

Yes, let's keep going.

It was so foreign to me receiving healthy.

And when I say healthy, secure love, I don't mean that he's perfect.

He's avoidant, leaning.

He's got his stuff, but he tries.

He shows up, he's authentic, he communicates, he's really present in the relationship, and he really wants this to be a relationship that both of us are happy in.

And because of that, we were able to bypass those markers.

But I think you had asked me earlier, which I didn't answer, how do you know when to stay or to go?

Yeah, I'm going to ask you that.

So let's go.

Yeah.

Let's go.

Okay.

So I don't have like, I wish, I wish there was like a checklist.

Because I hear this all the time with people where they're like, should I give them another chance?

Should I have another date?

I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

How I look at it is a couple of things.

So when we're talking, I guess, dating versus relationship, I'll go dating first.

When you're in the dating phase, let's say you meet somebody, and I know we're, like, as Scott says, the trauma tingles when you're not getting your, the spark.

And I know that it's the knee-jerk reaction to be like, I'm not feeling the spark, never mind.

And what we want to understand is, wait, wait, wait.

I need to differentiate.

I'm not feeling the spark, meaning I'm not feeling this overwhelming sensation and feelings in my body, because guess what?

That'll fade.

very quick.

And that's usually the stronger the attraction, the deeper the wound.

It is like clockwork.

And like, there's a difference.

I've heard some people that are like, no, I just felt like I was excited.

You're like, yeah, excitement's good.

Yeah.

And there can be something where, like, for me, it felt like home.

Right.

It felt like it was easeful.

It was peaceful.

Anyway, it doesn't mean that it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It just, we don't want to go after these high highs, low lows.

Yes.

Right.

That's where we start to see like that vacillation is a little too severe.

Yeah.

I kind of look at it as, well, my friend said this, so I'm stealing her thing, but I look at it this way too.

That I look at it like a bank account.

If my relationship and my profiting, do we have green?

Meaning that when we weigh it out, like whenever I look at me and Ryan, especially in the early stages of dating, I was like, okay, do I enjoy being with him?

Yes, I find him to be a nice guy.

When he touches me, do I move out of the way?

No, I actually really like his touch.

We had really good intimate life.

That was really lovely.

Okay, is it that this just feels really weird and uncomfortable?

Yeah, I'm not used to having someone choosing me versus I'm really bored with them.

I'm settling, meaning my morals, ethos, and ethics are getting compromised.

I'm not, I don't care when they speak.

When they touch me, I move out of the way.

I think to me, there's a difference there of, do I actually actually care about what this person's saying?

And am I curious about them?

So that's kind of in the dating world because for me, when people are like, no, they're really nice.

I'm just not attracted physically.

Like when he touched me, I got grossed out.

It's like, okay, you don't need to do charity work.

You don't need to force yourself to like someone.

But what I would say, like for Ryan, for instance, when I first met him, wasn't into him.

I'll be honest.

I found everything I didn't like about him.

Ugh, his clothes are too tight.

Oh, I don't like the color of his car.

He doesn't really talk a lot.

We don't have the banter.

And then he kissed me.

And all of a sudden, I was like, oh,

hi and then we hooked up and i was like whoa whoa whoa didn't see this coming but i wasn't like it wasn't this overwhelming sensation it was really consistent i didn't ever and i remember my mama asking i remember she looked at me and she goes if he didn't text you for two days would you freak out and i instantly went yep and she goes thank you very much now go on the date

because it was true if i had this guy was playing games versus when i've had people play games and you're like i'm not you don't even care if they text you you don't even think about them so that's the dating thing then i go into relationships am i seeing progress am i in the green or am in the red Are my needs being met?

Do I constantly feel like I'm sacrificing?

Is there resentment being built?

Do we have open communication?

It's not just communication, it's their comprehension.

Do they understand what I'm saying?

Do we have conflict and repair?

Is there content?

All of these different variables.

What I also would look at above all, are both of us growth-minded?

Because if they're not growth-minded, and I am, and I'm growing, I'm evolving, I'm changing, and they are gaslighting or saying that you've changed.

I don't know who this version is, it's never going to work.

Yeah.

Then it's time to go.

Yeah.

And that's a defense mechanism because they're scared of losing you.

So they want to hold you down where they are, but they don't feel safe enough to do the work.

And I would say having non-negotiables, like really having a handful of things that are important.

For me, having somebody that did the work was a non-negotiable.

But for some people, it may not be a negotiable.

And you don't need somebody else to be different for us.

We don't need others to be different for us to be okay.

But it's such a primary, I think, for both of us, like it's such a core part of our way of living and thinking.

And this isn't spoken about a lot, but in the personal development space, there's a lot of divorce that happens because one partner is growing.

And it's okay.

And as you grow, if it's a non-negotiable, you can call your partner forward to grow with you.

Or you may grow apart and the love is there, but the expiration of the form of that love may change.

That's exactly the like, it's not about a lack of love.

Yeah.

My mama has always says, proximity and timing, it matters so much more.

I can love somebody, but if I'm not in that space, right person, wrong time, no.

What makes them right for you is they're in your life at the right time in the right right space.

And if it's not now, it doesn't mean that it might not be in the future, but holding on to right person, wrong time completely closes you off to any other experience that's happening.

Because if I'm staring, wondering why this door isn't opening, I'm not seeing all the windows around me that are also creating new opportunities.

And I'm not giving myself nor other people the opportunity to connect with me because I am shutting off to one person that I may never talk to again.

Yeah, I love that you, how you have this distinction between being dating and also in relationships.

And with relationships, if you have kids, I would recommend people to do more of the work to make sure that it's super solid, not just, you know, obviously I think people are less flippant about it, given that affects the family.

And for me, I always recommend people, as long as there's no abuse, like see how much of your work you can do.

I don't even know if I believe in the wrong person because everybody is a mirror.

It doesn't mean you stay or get connected with everybody, but how can I learn from this?

What are they reflecting to me?

You know, let me use them as a mirror so I can do my work and see myself and my patterns more clearly because one of two things will happen.

Either they will become a completely different person because because you're no longer projecting your unconscious childhood stuff onto them and you're like, wow, this is way better.

Or it will be really clear that it's time to move on to some other relationship, but you won't take those same patterns into the next relationship.

You hope.

Well, if you've cleared them, if you've worked that relationship with it.

And you don't have to.

I know, like, I'm hearing my brother say, like, and he was asking me at one point, like, should I be doing the work with this person?

I was like, you're going to do the work.

And whether you do it within yourself or in this relationship, like, do you want to do the work with this person?

And so, I think it just helps us.

We can't get away with ourselves.

No.

And it's like, and I've saw a woman girl and she's like, My non-negotiables must be in therapy.

And it's like, okay, well, maybe that's not the route, right?

My partner has a coach, not a therapist.

He has a men's group, like he does now.

He has a therapist.

But to your point, when Ryan and I first met, we weren't just perfect.

We weren't just amazing.

We weren't just like, oh my God,

he triggered the living hell out of me.

Oh my God, he reminded me so much of my dad.

And not in a positive or a negative,

the way I felt.

And the only reason we are together right now is because we are both committed to our growth.

And he says it all the time.

I'm not doing this for us.

I'm doing this for me, and it will benefit us.

And it's the same thing.

I'm like, I'm doing this.

Like you said, regardless of it, I need to do the work on myself.

We both benefit from that.

Great.

Let's go cash that check.

We don't.

I take this and I move on.

That's right.

And we consistently have touch bases of, are we still connecting?

Are we still both fighting for the same thing and fighting, not necessarily the word, but you know what I mean?

Deeper.

Are we committed to doing this?

Because he even said, he's like, if you're done, that's okay.

I will never ever take this.

I see a lot of people, I wasted my time.

And I'm like, it's only a waste of time if that's how you see it.

That's right.

I look at it as even now, if Ryan and I woke up tomorrow and said, this isn't it, I would never take back the last three years of my life because I wouldn't be the person I am today.

That's beautiful.

And it's such a healthy way to approach it.

Yeah.

And even in my vows with my husband, it was like, I want you to be honest and true to yourself.

And that may look, that may at some point mean letting go, just given where divorce rates are.

And so we made up our own vows so that it was true for us.

For many years, I I was like, why even get married?

I just questioned everything to find what my truth was, which I think is really healthy.

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I think the honeymoon phase is shows you what's possible as you do the work.

Yeah.

And so everyone becomes our mirror to show us how we can continue to use this and evolve and wake up to a bigger love than just one egoic person that we're focusing and projecting on, which to me is a bigger love affair than any one person could never fulfill all of those needs.

Like it's really back to us, you know.

And I think just evolutionarily speaking, I think a lot of the time, like, I don't know, our parent generation was more about like put the kids first.

And then it got more evolved to like put the relationship first.

But I think it it needs to be about putting ourselves first.

And as we're our best selves, we're taken care of.

It's going to elevate the relationship that we're in.

That relationship is going to feed the kids and that family system.

So we're just learning through trial and error.

And I do know that people will say things like, if they wanted to, they would have.

And, and so, yeah, tell me your thoughts on this one and I'll, and then I'll share my perspective too.

It's like my eyes roll to the back of my skull.

Okay, here's my issue with if he wanted to, he would, is it's so deeply rooted in not understanding true human psychology because it's black and white.

That's right.

My mama and I were talking this morning and she was talking about how my sister, my sister is, she was a middle child.

She, she got most of the abuse.

Like, she was really like, my dad just kind of targeted her for a lot of stuff.

And even now, my mom says it, she's like, I can see your sister wants it, but she doesn't know how to access it.

And I said, that right there is what I mean.

She doesn't have the bandwidth.

She doesn't have the tools.

She doesn't have the resources for her nervous system to feel that she is now safe.

Yeah.

And I think, one, a couple of things.

If they wanted to, they would.

We'll say that right for any gender norms.

One, I hear arrogance.

When I hear people say that, I'm like, I'm sorry.

Who are you?

So I should just change my entire life.

Everything I have ever known because you suddenly entered it.

Yeah.

So that's the first thing.

The second thing is, then what does it mean about me?

Well, if they wanted to, they would.

And then let me guess, but then there's something wrong with me that they didn't.

It starts to then put us down because my next question to that person is, what about you?

If you didn't want, right?

If you also have a choice here, and I find it omits accountability, what's on them?

They wanted to.

And it just chalks it up because here's the thing: I want to be a millionaire.

Do I not want to be bad enough?

Right.

I'm like, oh, that's it.

You don't, no, I have limitations.

I have insecurities.

I have money blocks from my father.

I have a lot of things that are variables that are stopping me in the way that has nothing to do with my want.

Yeah.

It's that I don't know how to access this yet.

I'm learning as I go along.

Yeah.

And so I think if he wanted to, he would.

Or if they like you, no, if not, you'll be confused.

It's like, no, dating's confusing.

Like, relationships are confusing.

If they're not offering you clarity, that's a different story.

But if I have high anxiety, I'm probably going to be confused a lot because I'm overthinking and creating narratives that don't exist.

So I think when we put bumper sticker slogans and chalk people up to 140 characters or less, it's like when I hear people say my avoidant and my partner always says, what are they, your Tamagotchi?

Like, this isn't a Furby that you throw in and out of your purse.

This is a human being with their own lived experience.

And you don't just chalk it up to a, like, it's transactional almost.

And then I feel at that point, so it's not about them.

It's about you and how you're feeling and what's coming up for you, which is fine, but own it.

Yeah.

And I think of it like people that are wanting to quit alcohol and like they want it, but they have trauma that they need to heal.

And so it's not always about the desire.

And so how do we hold, what would you recommend for somebody that wants to hold compassion for somebody that they're dating, their trauma, while still holding a standard for their own needs and desires?

I can speak to it personally at least.

When I met my partner, he has a lot of childhood trauma.

His father was abusive.

And I'm not going to go into details.

It just wasn't cool.

Great mother, not the great father.

Everybody has their stuff and it doesn't mean that they're bad.

And when we first met, he was very very like rigid.

If it was 1201 and you weren't out, but he said 12, you could see he would have a panic attack.

His OCD would kick in.

So I had to understand it.

And that's where I walked a balance of being very clear with him of, hey, I really like you, but I need you to know for us to continue in a relationship, I need more vulnerability and I need you to let me in.

I'm not saying it's an ultimatum.

If you don't feel comfortable with that, you let me know.

And I think maybe this is the end.

But you want me to be your girlfriend?

Here's what I need.

I wasn't scared of showing up because if he walked away, Arifa Derchi baby, at least I had myself.

But I held space for, hey, I get, and he would explain.

He's like, I'm sorry, I just, I, I get really in my head.

And I'm like, that's okay, but I need you to learn how to communicate with me.

And so what did we do?

We started to talk about it.

And then that led to, we have a keyword.

We have two ways.

One, hey, can I share something with you?

Is how we approach each other when we need to talk to make sure that that person's in a space that they can receive it.

The other thing that we'll do is we have a thing of, hey, to avoid resentment, can I share?

And Ryan has done it now.

It's gotten better and better because he'll say, I, and like, you could see it.

He's struggling for the words.

And he's like, to avoid resentment, can I share something?

Because I know if I stay in my head, it's not going to help our relationship, even though I really don't want to talk right now.

And I'm like, and then I'll hold space of, hey, can I just say thank you?

Thank you for coming to me with that.

Now, what is it that you want to share?

Because now we've told my nervous system that communicating is safe.

And he's told her nervous system that communicating is safe.

And so I think I can hold compassion and space for somebody's journey, but when it starts to impact me in a negative, as in, oh, okay, so you're going to keep me out.

You're not going to commit to me.

You're not doing all of these things.

Well, how much am I willing to sacrifice to understand your needs?

I think that's such a beautiful example of how to lead conscious relationships.

So, the more self-aware we are, the more we can communicate to our partner and then seed, instead of staying in the surface-level defense mechanism of finding safety through being rigid and being on time, it's really transparently saying, What's really happening under the surface?

Well, I'm scared to lose you, or I'm nervous that this isn't, I'm not important to you.

And speaking that just creates connection.

And so, I love that you guys do that.

And it doesn't mean that we have to be perfect, it's just about sharing our humanity and being champions for each other through that.

Oh, yeah.

I think it's so helpful to hear those scripts and ways of thinking and so that people can model that.

Yeah.

I had somebody today on, I was live on TikTok, and someone said, you know, because I was like, I'm like, can you even go live on TikTok?

Oh, yeah.

We'll do it.

We'll talk offline.

So Ryan and I were doing it.

He was like with me and we were talking.

And someone said, what do I do when my partner deflects, like, doesn't take ownership of something?

How do you handle it?

And Ryan just like started laughing because he's done that.

He was a thousand percent.

I'll go to him and be like, well, maybe it was your anxiety that was the problem.

And I just kind of look at him and he'll be instantly, he's like, oh no.

Oh, no.

And I will literally like, excuse the language.

I'll look at him and be like, is that the fuck what you thought you were going to say?

Or is like, is that really what you intended to say to me?

And like, I'll, or I'll say back, I'll be like, excuse me.

So let me just clarify, is this what you meant to say?

Or the fuck you thought that was okay, right?

Like, I will approach him in a way of very direct, but here's the thing: I've learned that my partner really appreciates that kind of verbiage.

That's why we work so well.

Yeah.

For me, if I had someone that was super sensitive, this would never work because I'm sensitive.

Yeah.

So if I had to watch every word I say and think, I learned how to speak the language that he needs, and he learns how to speak the language I need.

And like, even now, we had a bit of a thing, and I was going through a moment.

And he came and sat and he said, After, can I ask you for feedback?

I was like, Yeah, of course.

And he was like, Did you feel supported in that moment?

Or did you feel like I was trying to fix it?

And he's like, Cause you gave me feedback before that I try to come in and fix things.

And I want to know if this worked for you.

And I was like, Yeah, actually, that was like, that was really great.

And he was like, Awesome.

I'm really trying to get better at this.

Thank you for the feedback.

And I was like, And that's the mr.

Avoided.

Does yeah, yeah.

Doesn't mean that you can't change.

It has to take a willing participant.

That's right.

It's got to come from him.

Oh, yeah.

And it always has.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's beautiful.

And I think it's really one of the most important and helpful things to have in a relationship is people that are self-aware because then you can express, okay, these are my childhood wounds and here's how they're going to dance together.

For me, at least it's been really helpful.

Then I don't take it personal when my husband's stuff comes up and I can more compassionately hold space for him while still calling him forward into greater connection and transforming that.

Not my job, but I can hold space as he does that.

And that we get to re-pattern his, you know, earlier childhood experiences.

So I just find it helpful.

Like the more we are aware of what is what our core wounds are and then how those are puzzle pieces together, the less we take them personal when they get activated.

You know what's so funny too, that the core wound both of us share, the oh my avoidant, right?

All the negatives and all the things that we see on TikTok of like avoidants, are that worse?

They're not.

They're great people.

They just don't know how to express themselves often.

There's a difference between an asshole and an avoidant, right?

Like those are two different people.

But one thing that was really interesting was when Ryan and I, as we've started to evolve and as we've started to communicate, like this didn't happen overnight.

We've been together two and a half years.

Now he feels comfortable to be like, this is reminding me of this.

We started to realize, I remember once he broke down and he was like, I'm just so terrified that you're going to leave me.

And I was like, where did this come from?

And he was like, because when you get to really know me and know who I am, you're going to be, you're not going to like me.

And I laughed and I was like, Miss Anxious, Mr.

Avoidant.

Both of us have the same core wounds.

That's right.

That we're both terrified of being seen for who we are because as children, when we were seen for who we were, we got hurt and we got dismissed and we got punished and we were left.

But it doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with either of us.

It allowed space for us to both say our wounds are actually quite similar.

And it doesn't mean that I need to heal his and he needs to heal mine, but it made the dance a lot more smooth because I realized like, oh, we're both struggling just in different ways.

That's right.

It's like the other side of the pendulum, same wound.

Yeah.

And the more you have compassion for yourself, the more it's going to be reflected in your partnership.

And so for people that are going on dates with others and they have a big tendency to really focus on the other person and like, oh, how do they think that went?

And they don't really check in with themselves.

What What advice, how do you support them in really checking in with their own direct experience?

I do a couple of things.

So I think, and it's so normal, right?

It's so like, did they like me?

Did they want, right?

We're so external about the validation.

And so the first thing I usually do is I'm like, right before a date, I'll have any of my clients like carry sour candy with you.

I don't care because sour candy, your brain can't focus at two things at once.

When you're dysregulated or nervous, you're anxious.

Oh my God, do they like me?

Do they not pop a sour candy?

And all of a sudden, because your brain can't focus, it touches.

That's your interrupt too.

Exactly.

All of a sudden, you're in it and you're like, whoa, okay, wait, where am I?

Oh, okay.

I don't know who this person is, right?

Like, I then start to say, one, how old do I feel when I say things like that?

Like, don't you sound like a teenager?

Oh, my God, they're so cool and they're so amazing and they're so hot.

And it's like, I sound like I'm 16 again, going to my mommy, telling her how cute that boy is at school and that he's going to be the love of my life.

And I never saw him again.

So there's that.

Then once you have, I always do the, I'm like, go for a walk around the block, especially before the date.

Do what you need to do to get back in your body.

And then I want you to list three things that make you really special so that you remember as well what you're bringing into this.

And I hate bringing to the table, but like literally, you're sitting down.

Then the next thing I kind of look at is, I always tell anybody, I'm like, if you feel at anything at all, go to the bathroom, shake it out for a minute.

And I want you to bring yourself back to how do I feel with this person?

Am I so nervous?

I, they're so good looking, right?

We've all been there.

It's been a minute for you, but I remember for me, we're like, you're sweating because they're so attractive and so fun.

And you're like, oh my God.

And you, all of a sudden, you're like seeing yourself in the wedding dress and you're realizing what your last name will, or what your name will look like with their last name.

And that's usually when I stop and be like, hey, what's happening internally?

And just taking a second after the date, I always would say, like, I want you to ask yourself a couple of questions.

Now, I don't care how you felt about them.

I cared how you felt with them.

Were you genuinely interested in what they were saying?

And is this somebody that you would see again?

A first date is just to see if you want to have a second date.

Second date, just to see if you want to have a third date.

This is not to assess if this is love of your life.

But I want to know, because the problem is on a first date, when I start to project all these things, no one's triggered.

I don't know what this person's like when someone cuts them off.

I don't know what this person's like when I say something they don't like.

I don't know what this person's like when I set a boundary.

So I need to also be cognizant and say, what are the facts to back up this entire narrative that I created about them?

Oh, nothing?

Okay, great.

So then I'm going to bring myself back to the present moment.

It's a lot of interrupting the loops that we all get on because it's easy to fantasize and go in.

And then that self-abandonment takes over because you're so focused on keeping the fantasy alive that you're not actually looking at the reality.

Yeah.

Powerful.

So helpful.

And something that I really like is having really clear agreements versus unspoken expectations.

And I think think in the beginning of a relationship or just starting to date, people have different expectations.

And so how do you support people in having an open conversation to make sure they're aligned with what they're getting into?

I got yelled at on the internet when I first started talking about it because I was the first person to be like, why are we not having like real conversations on a first or second date?

Okay.

When I met Ryan, I was very clear because again, for me, I was more scared of losing myself than I was of losing him because I have lost myself so many times and been in things that were not for me.

And so I asked, how'd your last relationship end and what did it teach you about yourself?

I don't give a fuck about her.

I don't care about the ex.

I'm not asking about your ex-partner.

I'm asking, how did it end?

What accountability do you take?

What did you learn from it?

Are you growth-minded?

Do you want kids?

Do you want marriage?

Like, what are your, if you're scared to have the political affiliate, what time do you have to waste to find out that in six months that you and this person are not aligned or that you and this person don't they want kids you don't So I think it's really important to have that.

Another question I love to ask early in the dating stage is like, what's something you changed your mind about recently when propped to the change?

I want to see, right, how growth-minded you are.

How do you handle conflict in a relationship?

I asked these very casually on my dates with Ryan.

I wasn't like, beep, beep, beep, beep.

Yeah, interviewings.

Right.

But I remember to this day, people ask him all the time, like, what made you want to date?

What made you go on with Sabrina?

And he said, I knew that she was different because when she showed up, she was so committed to being herself that it was really attractive to me to meet somebody that didn't care if I liked it or not.

And he said, he's like, the questions I asked him, he realized in that moment the depth and the emotional availability I was coming with.

And I think think there's a difference between trauma dumping,

you know, and starting to be like, yep, so when I was seven, my father used to hit me.

It's like, we don't need that.

Yeah.

But what we can have is vulnerability is sharing something that you might be judged on.

And that's okay.

Like, yeah, I wore a back brace when I was a kid.

Like, that impacted me as an adult.

It's like, you're allowed to share things that make you unique in you.

And I think it's important to ask hard questions in the beginning because part of my non-negotiable list, how did I create mine?

What did I used to accept in relationships?

I'm no longer willing to.

Inconsistency, too much like my dad can't handle it.

My nervous system freaks out.

I need somebody that is reliable.

I need somebody that shows up in different ways.

Acts of service is really important to me.

How would I have known all of these things had I not experienced all of them that I didn't get?

And so when we want to look is, because I had someone today say, am I being too rigid with my expectations?

I can't meet anybody.

No one I like.

I'm not attracted to anybody.

And it's like, well, because oftentimes what's your secondary gain?

Safety.

It's easier because then you don't have to show yourself.

Because if I can find a problem in everybody else, then there's no connection.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that doesn't mean that that's intentional.

Yeah.

Or out of malice.

Yeah.

A lot of the time unconscious.

Yeah.

And some people may just be getting into a date to have fun and be light and not want to take it further.

And another is like, oh my gosh, and projecting all their fantasies about getting married.

And so just being real.

One of the things I just, again, come back to, I just feel like you are an embodiment of is just the authenticity, just fully being yourself.

And the more we are ourselves, the more we're just going to line up with the people that match us and meet us.

My mama has always said, you can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all the the people all the time.

So you might as well have them not like you for you.

And it's true, because for years I was her.

I played chameleon.

My sister said to dress like this, I would.

My sister said to get a job here, I would.

The guy that likes me said to do this.

And it led me consistently down to feeling empty and depleted.

And the worst part, they still weren't happy with us.

Yeah.

So then what was I doing all this for?

And sometimes it's harder to abandon ourselves than be abandoned by another, right?

100%.

Yeah.

And boundaries, talking about that is a big part of this conversation.

I know it's super hard for people to share that because they're afraid of being not accepted and somebody leaving.

One of the things I like to do is to set a boundary around what I'll do versus trying to control them.

So instead of saying, make sure that you're not late to our third date, like as that rigid pattern, I might say something like, if you're late for our third date, I don't want to.

have another date.

And that's just about what I'm going to do to take care of myself rather than being a threat.

So talk to us about boundaries and some of your top non-negotiables around setting boundaries and dating and why.

Boundaries are so important.

And I think what we forget is, like you just said, it's not about the other person.

Somebody today said, my boundaries were crossed.

I'm like, nope, you crossed them.

They did.

Well, I just said, what was the boundary?

She said, well, he's not supposed to be talking to his ex.

I said, no, that's control.

You don't get, that is not a boundary.

You do not get to dictate who I speak to.

But you can say, I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who's still tied to their ex.

You have every right to say that.

Then you go make a choice.

Boundaries for me, again, are not about other people.

They're about myself.

And I'm the only one that can cross my boundaries.

What I think is a big misconception is that aspect is that people don't really understand what that means.

And then the second aspect, I think, is that a lot of people set boundaries before they're necessary you don't need to go on a date and be like by the way i'm not sleeping with you tonight it's like oh okay you know what you can do is at the end of the night when the guy says would you like to come home with me no thank you have a great night what do we preemptively it's like my brother he's like i don't preemptively i don't go home and be like by the way mom don't mom me he's like i'll address it in the moment because that's me what otherwise if we preemptively if everything is well then the wall is up and then i'm like hey you don't you don't trust me but you don't trust yourself if you have to say it before well then that means in the moment that you think you're going to do it And more often than not, you're probably going to.

And I'll give you an example.

When I first, when Ryan and I first started dating, I was really into texting.

My anxious ass was like, why aren't we texting every day?

I don't understand it.

But I knew in my head, I was like, this isn't healthy, Sabrina.

Stop chasing a feeling.

Like, allow it.

And maybe like a month in, I text him one day because he used to, he worked in tech at the time.

And I texted him more.

I think he texted me, whatever.

And I said, hey, like, I'd love more texting in between our dates to feel more connected to you.

How do you, how does that feel?

And maybe a couple hours later, I get a text like, hey, so great to hear from you.

Let me give you the quick and the long answer.

But the short answer is no.

And he said, but let me explain.

He said, I work in tech and I share at a computer for nine hours a day.

The last thing I want to do when I'm done with that is pull out a mini computer in my hand and sit there trying to build a connection with you when I'd much rather get to know you in person.

I am with my friends right now.

I'm present with my family, but I'd love to have standing dates with you.

If you want a FaceTime or phone call, I'm more happy to do that.

But I'm going to be honest, I'm not interested in a digital pen pal.

If that works for me, great.

And if not, I wish you all the best.

Beautiful.

And I was like, I was like, panties dropped.

And I asked him, I said, have you had people push back?

And he's like, oh, I've had girls rage me.

I've had people scream.

He's like, I've had people go irate.

And he was like, but at the end of the day, I knew I needed to set the boundary with you because I wouldn't be showing up authentically if I didn't.

And to this day, he hates texting.

He hates it.

It's like a blasphemy to him.

And that's also that black and white thinking of like, if a guy doesn't text you every day isn't like you.

It's like, no, you can set a boundary and you can communicate with somebody.

Hey, I don't appreciate that you were 30 minutes late.

Should you do that again?

I don't think I'm going to partake in the date because that's what I have control over.

And I I think it's so important, set the boundaries when they're necessary to be set.

And with boundaries, again, comes into grieving because Ryan was ready to let me go in that moment had I said, well, I want to text every day.

Okay, well, then we're not aligned.

That's not the relationship I want.

That doesn't fulfill me.

For me, I was like, I could do that because he gave a backup.

It wasn't just no.

And so I think it's really important to look at that because I think a lot of people misconstrue what boundaries are and then it comes fights and arguments.

But I think it's really, do they respect when you do say that?

How do they respond versus react?

And it's really mature in the way that he responded.

And it's like, no, I still care about the deeper thing.

But here's another way that we can meet where it's not me compromising.

So we both get to be met in the ways that we want.

So, so any other non-negotiables that are helpful for me?

Yes, for sure.

For me, must be done with your ex.

That is a huge non-negotiable.

Now, again, I understand you have kids and there's variables,

but the like, I, oh yeah, my ex and I broke up with a month ago.

I'm still kind of moving on for, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

That's the first thing.

Growth-minded is non-negotiable for me, communicative, consistent.

And consistent doesn't mean that they text me every day at the same time.

It means that they're reliable.

It means that their words and their actions align and I could build trust with this person.

Reciprocity.

I want a tennis match.

I want to serve the ball.

You serve the ball, not me throwing it a thousand times trying to get your attention.

And I want somebody that respects the boundaries that I do set.

So if I say, I've had men ask me, would you like to go out for a drink?

I don't drink alcohol.

It's not my thing.

So I'll say, or do you want to meet at eight o'clock?

And I'll say, hey, that's actually a little late for me.

I'm much more comfortable with six o'clock.

When they try, well, what are you a square?

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

Unnatched.

And so I think it's important when it comes to non-negotiables.

It's like, what is something that you used to accept that you're no longer willing to?

I don't accept inconsistency.

That doesn't work for me.

And again, I don't need you to be perfect, but I need you to show up.

Yeah.

And you need to have enough self-awareness and self-love to honor those boundaries within yourself and to be able to communicate them.

Yeah.

Which is, well, I think which is hardest for people.

100%.

Because again, what does that mean?

That That I could be ridiculed or judged for having them or I could be put down or any, but I know that I trust myself no matter what, I'll be okay.

And you talked about a little bit with Ryan, like the texting.

And I know you say it's false intimacy.

Talk to us more about how texting and where we're at in the modern day.

Texting is a slot machine.

Texting is a dopamine loop consistently because what happens is text has no tone.

So, okay.

I'm also not Pollyan.

I don't live under a rock.

Texting is part of life.

Duh.

We all do it.

But what I see a lot is the black and white.

If they text you every day, that means they like you.

If they don't, they're not that into you.

There is no space for nuance.

Black, white, gray.

Where is the gray?

Where is the understanding?

Text has no tone.

Text creates a false sense of intimacy because you feel closer.

You feel so much more connected because what's going to happen?

Of course, when you start chatty, Kathy 24-7, all you're doing is texting, texting, and you're every five seconds, you're pulling out your phone and you're conversing.

You're naturally going to be led into conversations that are expediting the stages of the relationship quicker than they need to be.

I've had that where I'm texting someone for two weeks.

Next thing you know, you're talking about their father that passed away and this connection you feel and all these things you're going to do.

And you may never even meet this person.

Or maybe you meet them and the fantasy and the reality don't match.

And then you meet them and they're a total dud or you're not into them or they have their BO, right?

Like there are so many different variables.

And then what happens is when we have the texting, your brain starts to get addicted to that.

So you get dopamine in anticipation of.

So every time you're waiting for a text, every time you're unsure, your body is releasing dopamine.

And so we're waiting for that high.

And then, ooh, serotonin gets released when we get the text.

It's anticlimactic.

I want more, I want more, I want more.

Then when we don't get it, what happens?

They used to text me every single morning, good morning, and then they stopped.

I know that there must be something wrong.

We start to become hypervigilant and we start to scan everything.

My next thing is, do you not have a job?

What are we doing that you have so much time to chatty all day when I want to build that in person with you?

So for me, texting is used for plans, is used for a quick touch base.

Hey, how you doing?

I just, I can't wait to see you.

You can show an excitement.

You could show an interest, just wanted to check in.

But if you're having deep, first of all, no fights over text.

Yes.

No deep conversations over text.

If we're starting to get into paragraphs, someone needs to pick up the phone so I can hear the tonality of the person and I need to have eye contact.

It's easy to hide behind a phone.

I can have ChatGPT come up with my response.

Yeah.

Which is a whole other conversation that I'm curious about where we will evolve in relationships with AI.

She's a study that just came out that was like, Gen Z has like an 83% chance of being in a relationship with AI more than a person.

I can see that.

You do.

Yeah.

It could be a lot easier for people.

Yeah.

That's why ChatGPT therapy is so popular.

Yeah.

They're so curious what will unfold with all that media.

Yeah.

I know, because I'm like, there's a lot of coddling, but where is the accountability?

Yeah.

But I think texting, I understand how sexy it can be, but it would unfortunately, very rarely does it go from text into person and maintain, like my mama said, when you start at 100, where else are you going to go?

Yeah.

And I think that biology has a really beautiful way of hooking us into that, like, I need to have you, like that honeymoon, that, that, that connection to pull us through wanting to do the work so that we actually don't avoid doing the work.

And so, again, honeymoon showing us what's possible when we do the work with AI.

We'll see what happens with that.

But, like, I know ghosting is a big, it can be really, not only is a big pain point, but I'm just thinking about, as a former licensed psychotherapist working with couples, it became really clear to me that it had nothing to do with them personally.

They just weren't a match for the puzzle pieces.

So, it it was like, oh, you could take somebody that's a beautiful human, but they're not emotionally unavailable.

And that's what maybe she was attracted to.

And because of that, then if they're blaming themselves, like, what did I do wrong?

It's just not a match because you're not a match for each other's wounds.

So with people that have been ghosted, you might be either have a different wound or you don't have a wound and that person does.

And that's why you're not together.

I'm curious for people that are in that with feeling rejected and feeling ghosted.

What do you want to say to them?

Ghosting is a tough one because, and again, I'm going to get yelled at probably for this because I, to me, I think ghosting is wildly misused right now.

People will say, I was ghosted.

And it's like, okay, could you explain?

Well, he didn't answer me for two days.

I'm like, that doesn't mean you were ghosted.

Ghosted means you reached out.

You said, like, I remember dating this guy for two months.

And we were like sleeping together.

We were seeing each other.

We were meeting friends.

Like, we were seeing each other like three, four times a week.

Like, this was a dating and a courtship situation.

And we were supposed to go, this is when True Blood came out.

It was the launch party.

I remember we were supposed to go to my friends to watch.

It was 2010, I think.

God, I'm aging myself.

And I was living in New York.

And I remember I saw him that morning.

I saw him that morning out.

We were walking.

I was like, oh my God, big hug, baby.

I can't wait to see you tonight.

We're going to the party together.

I was with my friend and she's like, oh my God, I can't wait to meet his friends.

It was a whole thing.

That night, I text him, hey, I'm going to go grab sushi.

I'll meet you at the party.

Nothing.

I go to dinner.

Nothing.

I text him like, hey, nothing.

I never heard from him again.

That's ghosting.

Yeah.

That is ghosting.

We're like, you literally not that we had one date and no one text me.

It's like, well, neither of you text each other.

And if you have one date, it doesn't, no one knows you.

I know people yell at me all the time.

What are you talking about?

That's indecency.

No, you're taking it personally.

Because, baby, I used to go on a date, like, no joke, once or twice a day.

If I had every single time someone didn't text me after and I internalized that and I made it personal about me, what happens when I say they ghosted me?

Is there something wrong with me?

What did I do wrong?

Instead of, they're not in alignment.

Yeah.

That person's not for me.

And so I think what we have to look at is rejection is redirection.

And if somebody's ghosting you or somebody is choosing a method that they feel safer with, that doesn't have to do with me.

Now that comes with a caveat, if there's a pattern, I have this where they're like, well, the last seven people I dated ghosted me.

It's like, okay, well, then we need to look at what is my part in it.

It's not my fault, but what am I doing?

Am I texting a thousand times after the date and they felt overwhelmed?

Am I, do they notice that maybe I'm not stable enough to receive the information because I screamed at them?

Like, we need to take accountability on ourselves.

But if you've taken stock and your side of the street is clean, like with that guy, I was like, I didn't do anything.

I literally saw you that morning and I never, I saw him on the street two weeks later.

I flicked him off and I told, I yelled at him.

I was like, coward.

And he texted me after and was like, it was cowardice, what I did.

Oh, you would explain.

And to this day, I have no idea what happened.

Meh, you met probably another girl, or it was getting too serious, whatever.

But the longer I spent trying to understand why he was doing that, the more time I was disconnected from myself.

Why?

And trying to understand them means that I'm trying to avoid the pain that I'm going through.

Beautiful.

Beautiful.

Because I think people really do stay up in the analyzing and blaming as a way to avoid feeling.

And it's like feelings aren't hard, it's the resistance to the feelings that are hard.

And when we learn how to somatically just feel a sensation or a feeling in our body without the label of it, it can move through incredibly quickly.

And then you don't have to get sucked into all the drama staying on the surface level, trying to talk to your friends about it, recreate all of that hazard in your mind.

And I know that there's so much pain for people around dating, and it can bring up some of our core wounds.

Having the right tools to me is everything.

And so I'd love to hear more because it sounds like somatic work you really love.

And that's my jam too.

Are there any other things that support people that you have found helpful in terms of soothing and helping regulate their nervous system?

Really, the basics, right?

Like, I think that's kind of the whole thing is, I think we're all looking for the big.

We're looking for the aha moment in therapy.

And you're like, yeah, yeah, that's great.

Don't get me wrong.

What are you doing with it after?

Because that moment's going to come back.

And I think for me, it's really going for walks has been a game changer for me.

I mean, I lived in New York.

So to me, that was, I never knew what I was doing.

Anytime I'm anxious, I would just go for a walk.

And then I got a dog.

And so, of course, we were always for a walk.

It was, you saw Clem, you saw me, you saw me, you saw Clem.

And I think when he passed, I lost myself.

I didn't, that was my coping mechanism.

Was like, that's my object permanence.

He was my everything.

Going for walks, doing, even dancing in my living room.

Sometimes I'll just, I'll put headphones on and I'll just start moving in different ways.

I'm a singer.

I love to sing.

I'll hum, activate the vagus nerve.

Yeah, musical theater kid.

I have this, actually, I don't know if you've ever heard of it.

It's a single called Sensate.

Yes.

Oh, my God.

Oh, the emotions that come out, the vibrating on the vagus nerve.

Even one time, my friend, I was on with her, and I got a negative troll comment, and she's like, fight them.

And I was like, what?

And she's like, punch the air.

And I started punching the air.

And I was like, oh, I feel a lot better.

And she's like, yeah, you got it out.

That's right.

So for me, it's just those light movements.

Obviously, if I'm dorsal and I'm really shut down, I kind of, you know, sitting up straight, having a cup of tea, I really ask myself, what do I need in this moment?

Water, food, sunlight, move.

I don't need my phone more often than not.

But it's funny, we were talking earlier about the feelings, right?

Those emotions.

Jill Bolt Taylor, neuropsychotherapist, has always said, 90 seconds, 90 seconds for an emotional targets course.

And today I had my client and she was feeling it.

And she's like, I feel it in my chest.

I said, okay, great.

Close your eyes.

90 seconds later, like clockwork.

I looked at that.

I kept looking at the clock two minutes later.

And she was like, wow, I feel so much better.

I know.

And she's like, you taught me how to sit with it.

And I was like, and now what?

And she's like, I feel great.

Yeah.

That's everything.

It's like, we have the medicine.

And most of the time, we think about just going outside.

If I got the guy or they called me back and we abandon ourselves looking for them to be different.

And it's our relationship with our feelings because if we avoid them, we just postpone them.

And some people will just indulge in them by telling themselves stories as a way to avoid.

But avoiding and indulging, I think, are really good pillars so that we can learn to allow, like you're saying, the 90 seconds, move it through the nervous system and to shift our relationship with it.

It's not like, how do I get rid of this?

It's like, how do I love this?

How do I be present with this?

And I love what you were sharing.

Like, what do I need?

And so you're not going into managing it.

You're actually going into address it at the root.

I remember the one thing I had said to my good friend now when she started working with me.

That's how we met, and then we just ran off into the sunset as friends.

And she was like, To this day, it sticks with me.

And I told her, I was like, Healing's not about getting rid of the emotions, healing's not about fixing anything because you're not broken.

I was like, Healing means that you learn to live with it, that you learn that it doesn't take over your body.

That I still wake up like every single day growing up as a kid, you didn't know what you were waking up to.

One minute, I woke up, my dad was gone.

One minute, my brother was gone.

One minute, it was always, you didn't know if he had money.

I'd see my mom crying, begging my father.

Like, I never had safety and security to this day.

Every morning I wake up with a jolt of, oh my God, I'm going to lose everything.

And that's just my body being like, and then I have to stop and say, hey, you're good.

I got you.

And I hear you.

And I'm listening.

And I know how hard this feels.

And I, well, I would go through it all.

It doesn't make it go away, but it just means that I've learned how to live with that part of me because I can't get rid of her, but I can tell her that she's welcomed here.

The more I fight it, oh, how can I get rid of it?

I want it to stop.

How do I let it go?

It's like.

You welcome it.

That's right.

And look at it and see it and love it and validate.

Oh my God.

Thank you for trying to protect me.

You're doing your job.

It's just maladaptive.

Yeah.

And that's how love moves towards everything.

And so think of it like our feelings are like little kids.

They just want a hug.

They're throwing a tantrum.

They want a 90-second hug and they're off playing again.

It doesn't have to be hard, less drama, more ease.

But for people listening, they're like, okay, I want to understand what my unhealthy dating habits and patterns are.

How do you help them identify?

Usually when I'm like, okay, tell me about the last five people you did it.

Okay.

I want to understand what do we see?

Because more, I have to say, most people that I work with are pretty aware of like, oh, I I keep going for emotionally unavailable people.

The caveat comes into they don't understand why.

They don't see what's causing them.

And then when I bring up to like, especially the emotionally unavailable thing is huge, situation chips.

I keep getting into situation chips.

Most of the time, they hate me when I tell them, yeah, the reason you find yourself in that is because you're emotionally unavailable as well.

If you were, right?

If you were truly emotionally available, hey, I understand how I'm feeling right now.

Can I express that to you?

Hey, this is what's happening in my body.

Can we talk about it?

Hey, I'm really aware of what's coming up for me.

That's emotional availability to me at least.

That's right.

If I'm sitting there going, I keep dating emotionally unavailable men.

Okay, well, how am I showing up?

Oh, no, I'm not.

I don't want to scare them off.

No, no, no, I don't want to be too much.

Yeah.

Okay.

So then how available am I being?

I usually start it with, tell me about the last few people that you've dated.

What is the common denominator?

Not necessarily being me, but the behavior.

And then I kind of will go into, okay, how familiar does this feel?

Oh, this is what I've dated all my life.

Okay, when do you remember?

Then we start to understand

your patterns are going for people that make you feel small because that's how your caregivers were.

Or you go for people that overlook you or dismiss you or discredit you because you didn't have anybody in your childhood that taught you how to do that for yourself.

So it's really important to understand and how long this has been happening.

And when the first time I remember this starting, so I could see what parts of me are coming out to trying to make this happen.

Beautiful.

Yeah.

All of those.

My little.

Such good nuggets.

Yeah.

Just in closing, I'm curious if there's anything we haven't spoken about that would be really of service to people if we did speak to.

I think at the end of the day, I'm a hard ass.

I get that.

I'm, I'm direct.

I'm blunt.

I'm to the point.

And I don't mean any of this to ever hurt anybody.

But what I do mean it for is to realize, like, you have so much more power than you think you do.

And when it comes to dating and relationships, you're not a victim to circumstance.

You are a choice maker.

And so when we can bring it internal, because the work I do, I don't know if you'll meet somebody, that I can't control.

I'm not God.

My crystal ball is in the shop.

But what I can do is make sure that you are okay no matter what.

What I can help you with is know that the choices and the decisions that you make come from a place of empowerment.

And so that you can put your head on the pillow at night, feeling at the very least, I won't even say good, okay, with your decisions.

And I think I want everybody that's listening to remember that what happened to you in childhood doesn't need to be what follows you in adulthood and that you have the choices now.

You're not six years old.

You're not stuck in a room anymore going, what do I do?

I can't do this.

It's just now about knowing and taking up space.

And that was really scary for me.

And so for anybody right there, that's dating, that's in a relationship, take up the space because the world needs that light.

And the more you try to dim it, the harder it is for any of us to see.

Beautiful.

Oh my goodness.

I just fell in love with you even more.

I know my audience is going to want to stay connected.

Tell us where they stay connected to you and your work.

The Sabrina Zohar Show is the podcast, which we're going to have you on once the studio is built.

That's on Apple, Amazon, Google, YouTube, all the fun stuff.

Sabrina.Zohar on TikTok if it's still around.

And Instas, the Sabrina Zohar Show, pretty much my name, YouTube, all of those channels.

And we'd love to have you.

It's really just a community of people that are trying to feel like there's a place that they belong, especially in a world which feels really hard sometimes too.

So beautiful.

And we'll put all the links here below.

What a gift, Sabrina.

I'm so grateful that you come on.

Likewise, thanks for having me.

Yay.

Thank you so much for doing this work that changes the world, starting with yourself.

It truly does make a difference.

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I have so much more magic I want to share with you and I cannot wait to do that soon.

But for now, I just want to say thank you so much for being an example of what it's like to live with an open heart and mind in the world.