How to Stop People-Pleasing + Face Your Truth with Amber Rae | EP 103

It was four years ago while married.

I looked into the eyes of a stranger.

This is the person I'm actually supposed to spend my life with.

Intuition speaking so clearly, which was very quickly followed by you're insane, he's a stranger, you're married, and on the list of fears.

But the truth was that in that moment, I woke up from my slumber.

I stay because I don't want to hurt people, but the cost of that is hurting myself.

Have some sort of space where you can voice the fear and the shame because when it's stuck inside of you, it's so much scarier.

And when you can voice it, it actually diffuses.

So we are told don't disappoint people.

Don't let them down.

Don't be selfish.

We can't please everyone.

I really want to encourage you in following a path of truth over expectations.

Learn to feel the discomfort of disappointing others because that is where you will find your bravery, strength, clarity, and your truth.

I'm curious for people to be able to.

people that feel like their life that they've built is no longer a fit for them and now they feel they've made all the wrong choices.

What would you say to them?

Welcome back to the Healing and Human Potential podcast.

Today we're going to talk about how to stop performing for love and how to really listen to and act in alignment with our truth, even when that means letting go of everything we thought we were certain of.

Joining us is Amber Ray, best-selling author and speaker whose journey shares an intimate and raw example of what it looks like to move from people-pleasing to really choosing herself.

Through unlearning old patterns, honoring her emotions like anger and desire, and trusting her inner knowing, Amber takes us on a journey about what it means to live honestly no matter the cost.

Amber, I'm so happy to have you back.

And I just want to jump right in because I know a lot of people feel torn between this sense of feeling safety and the sense of choosing what's true for them now.

And you've been super vulnerable and honest online about finding your soulmate when you are married to someone else.

And I would love for you to share with us a little bit about that journey and some of the things that you've learned throughout it, because a lot has unfolded since the last time you were on the podcast.

Yeah, well, to do a bit of context, it was four years ago while married that I looked into the eyes of a stranger and had this kind of hello again feeling.

It was like a recognition at first sight, a time slowing, an overwhelming feeling of, oh, this is what connection is supposed to feel like.

And this, without the voice of fear interrupting, this is the person I'm actually supposed to spend my life with.

And it was just intuition speaking so clearly and so loudly, which of course was very quickly followed by, you're insane, he's a stranger, you're married, you're in the middle of building out this project with your husband and on and on and on the list of fears.

But the truth was that in that moment, I woke up from my slumber.

And I think we, you know, a lot of people find themselves in these situations where, you know, I was staying, I had stayed for too long.

I was in a marriage with someone who is my best friend, but never my romantic partner.

And I was very afraid to look at the truth of that and to admit that to myself because so much of the relationship was good and it was safe.

And we were friends and we were now business partners.

And I didn't want to disappoint anyone.

And I didn't want to hurt him.

And is this good enough?

Can't I make it work?

But what happened when I, you know, looked into those strangers' eyes is that I kind of woke up from this

slumber and this story I had been telling myself.

And there was a feeling of kind of enough.

You have to look honestly and you have to look honestly now.

And I love that you were willing to not only admit it to yourself, but also speak it.

And I know that probably took a lot of courage.

And I'm before we even jump into some of those conversations, I'm sure there was a lot of backlash that you've heard online about this.

Let's speak to a little bit of that.

So it kind of eases some of the, you know, things that can come up around that, not only because it confronts people with their own choices, but also just to kind of alleviate some of that that might be coming up.

Like, because to me, you were honest about it.

And I think that there's something about that that is not only integrous with yourself, but also for both parties in three ways, you, your ex, and John, your current husband.

So talk to us a little bit about what you've been hearing online since sharing some of this.

Yeah, no, I think when a woman decides to honor herself and speak her truth, and that can be confronting for some people, which I've found because people have been calling me selfish, the devil.

They say I should die.

I'm Satan,

you know, all kinds of like a full crazy spectrum of things.

But I'm also hearing this is my story too.

And you put words to what I've been feeling, or I've been with my partner for 18 years and we've been intimate four times, but I feel guilty wanting more.

So as much as there is this you're an awful narcissistic sociopathic person which I've also heard which you are not I know you are

or you know walking this path I think there's a lot of people who have found themselves trapped in a life that they thought that they wanted and they aren't sure how to leave and they aren't sure if they should trust themselves and what if they leave and then they change their mind you know there's there's so many fears and doubts that come up for people but you know what was interesting is that the first thought i had in my mind when i when i looked at john was oh maybe in another life

and i just think it's so interesting how we can

kind of squander these one lives that we live as if we get to live more than one And, you know, reflecting back on that, I'm like, maybe in another life, or why don't we fully choose this one?

And there's a lot that goes into that with the courage and the willingness to be honest through all of it.

Just fast forwarding a little bit.

I know the behind the scenes of your life, but share with us a little bit more about where you are now and some of just the courage that it took to speak your truth and what you know is possible based on having chosen what was true for you and the connection you know now is possible.

Yeah, I mean, now I'm the mama of a nine and a half month old.

I'm happily married.

We're living in New York, which is, I don't know if that's the dream yet, but

we shot a LA by the fires and we're temporarily here and that we're making it work.

But I'm living a life where I feel most importantly, it doesn't matter, you know, the outside is one thing, but on the inside, I feel at peace.

I feel free.

I feel in my power, in my voice, in my truth, even though, you know, I'm getting all this backlash and criticism online.

It's not really bothering me because I know myself and I know the choices that I made and I know I chose what was right and true for me.

And I know that when people do that, it's going to bring up feelings for people, and particularly around love and relationships.

Because more people have backlash, it tells me more about their own pain

around staying.

You know, I don't know if their parents got divorced, I don't know if they had a relationship end in a really betraying way, but it tells me that they are in pain and that I can have compassion for.

I think the most essential thing for me in this process, it wasn't just like I met this person and then we went and have this like quiet affair and, you know, and I never let my husband in on my feelings.

I was very transparent with him as things were coming online for me to the point that the night that John left after I met him, I turned to my then husband and I said, I just met a soulmate.

And he said, which astonished me at the time, I saw that was beautiful to witness.

And so I didn't think, oh, and now I'm going to leave this marriage and go be with that person.

I thought it was just this, you know, I think we can meet many soulmates.

It was this person who I felt this really special connection with.

And wow, he opened my eyes to something.

And I don't know what is going to come of this.

But I, you know, I think what came clear to me in that moment was that telling the truth was going to be the kindest thing, even though it might be the hardest thing.

And transparency was, because it was as if once I saw him, I could no longer undo what I knew, which is that I was married to my, that I was in a marriage with a roommate and a best friend.

And so I didn't know what would happen, but I knew that I needed to now start speaking honestly.

And I think that's such an important distinction that you were transparent, you were in integrity, and you were speaking your truth.

And then also that sometimes I feel like people come into our lives to wake us up and remind us.

Sometimes that was their only role.

And then other times there is a greater path to play out with them.

And so for anybody on their path, maybe somebody came in to remind you.

And that could be through Amber sharing her story, right?

It could be through a potential lover.

It could be through lots of different ways, but to listen to our own inner wisdom.

I'm curious for people that feel like that their life that they've built is no longer a fit for them.

And now they feel like they've made all the wrong choices.

What would you say to them?

I would say, and you know, it's really scary to first have that realization.

It's terrifying.

You've put in all this time, this energy, this effort, and wait, it doesn't feel right, or maybe you've outgrown it, or maybe, you know, you were trying so hard to make it work, thinking you should be more grateful.

I know for me, it was like the next workshop, the next this, this, this.

Let's try all these different ways.

I can figure this out.

And, you know, I want to remind you that you're not alone.

And even though it's a tricky territory to walk, I want you to know that you're in my heart and your voice within you knows.

And really, if you can get quiet and if you can listen, you know, there's going to be a lot of fearful parts that may come up.

There might be an inner child who is afraid of leaving the space of safety.

But within you is a wise self, a knowing self, and a part of you that wants you to step fully into your most true, free, and liberated life.

And if you can give that part of you a microphone and allow that part of you to speak, I think there could be some really beautiful and powerful wisdom there for you.

I agree.

Yeah.

And I think sometimes people

they revert to what's familiar out of a default, thinking that that's what's safe.

And I know that it can be sometimes scary to admit to ourselves what our truth is.

So sometimes we don't even do that because if we admitted it, then we'd have to do something different.

I'm curious on your journey, was there some practice or some tool that supported you in uncovering your truth when it was really hard to be honest with yourself?

There were two key tools.

One was my journaling practice.

And this was a place for me, if I could be brave on the page, I could be braver in real life.

And so this is where I asked myself the hard questions.

This is where I admitted things to myself for the first time.

I felt like I first had to have that really honest dialogue with myself.

And I asked myself questions like, what truth am I afraid to admit to myself and why?

Or where am I disappointing myself so I don't have to disappoint another?

Or what am I really afraid of here?

What's preventing me from taking action on what I know is right and true for me?

And I just allowed the page to be this kind of safe

venting space for me to be really real.

And then, once I was having that honest dialogue with myself, it was just as important to have a safe, sacred space with those close to me.

So, I think of one very close friend in particular who was kind of like a, you know, if you think of the hero's journey, I love thinking about the hero's journey now.

We like have this call to adventure.

Something takes us out of our comfort zone and then we resist the call because it's too scary.

But then we meet a mentor and that mentor helps us overcome our fears so that we can act on what's right and true for us.

Well, a girlfriend of mine was that mentor.

And I remember going to her and saying,

this is how I feel, but I can't leave my marriage and people are going to shame me.

And, you know, I just kind of opened my heart fully and spoke freely for the first time.

And she, I thought she was going to say, yes, Amber, you need need to work on your marriage, you need to figure out how to make it work.

But instead, she like smiled gently and her face lit up.

And she's like, Sounds like you're getting really honest with yourself about all the ways your needs haven't been met.

And by the way, liberation is a two-way street.

And by the way, no one benefits from you being half-in on this relationship.

And was just kind of that real talk and wise voice that I needed to

know that I'm going to be okay.

And, you know, the right people are going to love me, even if I make this hard decision.

I recommend to people, whether you have a friend that you really trust or, you know, a therapeutic space can be very powerful and helpful, but have some sort of space where you can voice the fear and the shame.

Because when it's stuck inside of you, it's so much scarier and more shameful.

And when you can voice it, it actually diffuses and it breathes and it allows you to say, okay, you know, maybe I'm not this shame or I'm not this fear or you know even if people do judge me or have feelings about it um not only is that perhaps a reflection of your own internalized fear and shame because i know for me for example i was like people are going to say she left her marriage for another man how shameful and i was like i was i shame myself for that So it's like, I can be mad at someone else, but really, that was my own internalized story.

So just having that sacred space with yourself and with another can go, oh, can offer tremendous relief and space and clarity.

Yeah, I've just been picking up a journaling practice nightly for seven minutes, and it is changing my life.

I'm loving it.

And I know you're such a fan of writing, but that's a safe place to start really getting honest with ourselves to ask the hard questions.

And then another thing I just want to highlight that you mentioned was the, if you're good with something in you, other people's judgments don't bother you so much.

It's like you can see that that's more of a reflection of them.

And if it does trigger something inside of us, then that's just showing what needs to be tended to inside of us, that they're mirroring a tenderness or a trigger that we get to tend to inside rather than trying to change it with them.

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I'm hearing people inside of myself ask, well, how do you know when to stay and work it out versus when to leave?

Because that felt like the truest thing.

How do you navigate and guide people around that?

Yeah, you know, it's such a personal and nuanced journey.

I don't feel like I can tell someone this is the path for you, but I can encourage you to ask yourself, what is the right path for me?

My friend, and I know she's been on this podcast, Vienna Fair, and she says, sometimes the healing is in the going and sometimes the healing is in the leaving.

And, you know, I find it helpful to reflect on what are your patterns around endings and beginnings.

And this is something that she encouraged as well.

And I was, I tended to be someone who overstayed.

And so as a people pleaser and a harmonizer and someone who didn't want to disappoint people and who would hurt myself without even realizing that I'm hurting myself because I don't want to hurt another.

And, you know, self-abandonment, even though I didn't know I was self-abandoning, was something that I was doing in patterns that I was caught up in.

It was helpful for me to reflect on like, oh, I stay because I don't want to hurt people, but the cost of that is hurting myself.

And is that what's playing out here?

You know, and then on the flip side, there might be people who, as soon as it gets a little heated, as soon as there's a bit of conflict, as soon as like there's an opportunity for intimacy, that's when the walls go up.

That's when

you want to leave you want to run and and the invitation there is you know what growth might actually live here for you if you stay so I think it's helpful to look at your patterns and look at what you've historically done and you know whether or not that's helping you expand into who you want to be and how you want to live.

And then that's a lot of words and a lot of reflection, but at the end of the day, I think that there's a quiet voice within you.

And maybe it's not a quiet voice anymore.

Maybe it's a very loud voice that when you hear me talking you're saying oh shit

because it's illuminating something you are afraid i remember when glenn and doyle's book came out untamed i was like oh shit i don't want to you know i hadn't met john yet but i was like there's not another woman but like she's illuminating the fact that I am not listening to myself and haven't been for some time, but I'm going to push it down and push it down and push it down.

So I'd say listening to the voice that knows.

Yeah, and that feels really wise because then you're not outsourcing your knowing and you've got that balance and that GPS to rely on no matter what you're confronted with in life, which just feels really mature.

And I think I've heard you mention and talk about if it was good for them, it's good for you or something like that.

Can you unpack?

Because especially for the people pleasers that overextend and stay, I think that might be medicine for them to hear some of the wisdom that you've spoken to about that.

Yeah, I mean, it's the idea that liberation is a two-way street.

And, you know, I can think of a very dear friend of mine who is a pleaser.

And so I'm going to reflect as a story on the other side.

And I can think of times where she's not being fully honest with me because she doesn't want to upset me.

Or she is trying to make so many people happy at the same time that she kind of lets several down because she's not saying, what do I want and what do I need here?

And as someone who's in friendship with her, I want to be like, yo, just tell me what you need.

and what you want

because I feel like I'm dealing with half-truths and I don't really know where you stand and it's kind of confusing and this is you know requiring a lot of like and if you want to go see that friend it's not gonna upset me just tell me you want to go see you know it's just I say all of that because it's it can be exhausting to actually be in relationship with someone who's trying to make you happy

and I think the invitation is how do we get in relationships where where the commitment is, I'm going to honor myself because I know that when I honor myself, I am fully available and resourced to be able to show up for and honor you in the relationship in the container.

Yeah, it's true for all relationships.

And I think self-betrayal is this slow burn.

Sometimes we don't even realize that we're doing it, kind of like the analogy of a frog in a pot of water where it starts boiling and it doesn't jump out before it's too late.

And sometimes we do it a small thing here or there until it just becomes so, we don't even know what our needs are anymore.

For people that may not even even know that they're abandoning themselves, that they're betraying themselves.

What are some common ways you see people do that so that they can become more aware?

One of the ways is that our attention is so focused on the other, what they need, what they want, what they need from us, that we lose sight of ourselves and our own needs along the way.

And, you know, for the caregivers or for the people who really love to please, love to give, love that generosity, which is so beautiful, we may not even realize that we haven't considered like what's important to us so some of the inner dialogue also that you might notice is oh i don't want to let them down i don't want to hurt them i don't want to disappoint them i don't want them upset at me oh i want them to feel taken care of i want them to feel loved i want them to feel seen and if you can hear and in everything that i've just said it's them them them them them them them and so it's such a hyper focus on the other which can be so beautiful and so generous but it's when it gets to an extreme, we completely lose sight of ourselves in the process.

Yeah, that's definitely been something that I've had to learn.

And I think my audience as well, this like sacrifice of self in service to other.

It's like, no, we're included in that nourishment.

And not only does that make it more sustainable, but then you genuinely connect.

I just got back from a trip with my kids, and I realized there was like a moment to be vulnerable and speak my truth.

And I didn't do it.

And I always tell people, you don't have a relationship if you can't be honest.

And I'm like, ooh, there's my vulnerable edge.

I'm going to say it.

And it was subtle, but it was like, it felt really important to me to be seen as their stepmom and like all of the ways that I've devoted 16 years of my life to just loving them and being there for them.

And I didn't speak that because it was vulnerable.

And I know when I put my own needs first, like I'm met with so much authenticity and genuine connection and I feel nourished, but there's still that edge.

You know, it can still be scary to be vulnerable at times.

And so, I just want to encourage anybody to be gentle with yourselves because it's such a beautiful safety strategy to care for others and abandon yourself.

It just doesn't work in the long term.

And then, if you do that with your kids or with your partner, it'll show up with your kids and your team and all these other areas of your life.

But I wanted to ask you, because you talked about being in a sexless marriage, and I'm curious now, looking back, what did that show you about your own needs, needs, your desire, and your sense of self?

Yeah, that was a huge learning for me because, you know, here I was on the other side of a nine-year relationship.

And when I was in it, it was crazy to me on the other side of the relationship that I had sustained a nine-year marriage that was sexless.

It was like, how the hell?

did I let that be okay?

How did I let that happen?

And that kind of, how the hell did I get here had me go into deep inquiry to try to unpack and figure it out.

And what I discovered is that my father, he died when I was young.

And then I had a really, let's just say terrible stepfather and abusive stepfather and not physical, but emotional.

And just, I witnessed physical abuse.

It was, it was not a safe place.

And because I so longed for

a relationship with my father who had a traumatic brain injury when I was young and therefore could never connect with me in the way that I wanted him to.

And because I then, with the stepdad, thought, oh, maybe this will be the father relationship that could fill that void.

Because I long and desired that male connection so intensely, it was actually very scary to choose relationships where I desired the other partner.

And so my pattern, I realized, was to turn friends into romantic partners because this way, if they left, A, they probably wouldn't leave.

And B, if they did leave, it wouldn't hurt as badly because I did not want to feel or touch that same wound that I had felt as a young girl.

And there were times where I did, you know, kind of step away from that and pursue desire, pursue a deep attraction, and often blew up in my face.

And so, I think after choosing that one too many times, I then went to the extreme of like, okay, I'm just going to choose a best friend.

So, that was very not, I didn't actively and consciously think in the moment, I'm choosing a best friend.

It'll be more safe this way.

But in reflection, I was like, oh, that's why I did that.

And so I had to really learn that

desire is safe and just really like rewrite and reprogram that within myself.

Yeah, that's beautiful insights for people to really chew on.

It's like, where am I choosing what seems safe?

And is it really safe?

But another thing that you bring up is there's a lot of shame with female desire and with ambition and choosing yourself.

And I'm curious, what helped you claim your power?

And as you started to do that how else did it show up in your life to reflect

yeah you know I really stumbled my way through claiming my power I think you know just to go back to the like kind of story that I you know here I am on the other side of this nine-year marriage and now I'm with someone and I feel very disconnected from my sexuality because I'd repressed it for so long and told myself it wasn't important.

And now here I am with someone who's very connected to that part of themselves.

And I'm trying to reclaim my sexuality and partner, but I felt like I was on uneven, you know, we were at different experience levels.

And so the way I learned to claim my power was really to face all of the insecurities that I did not realize were going to come to the surface.

And, you know, it was just looking at them head on because I realized that I had a big story that if I could not perform to a certain level, then, you know, John would leave.

Or if I couldn't satisfy him, he would leave.

And so there's a lot of abandonment yumding that was connected to my inability to step fully into my female desire and fully like own my hunger and fully like feel confident in my body.

And so

it was really a process of looking at what are these stories that I've been telling myself?

What are these insecurities that have been inhibiting me?

And how can I actually bring vulnerability?

And you mentioned vulnerability.

And it was as I gave voice to kind of, you know, and I think of this idea of how we become wounded in relationships and so we heal in relationships.

And there can, people can say, oh, well, I need to really work on that on my own before I can be in relationship again.

And I actually found the opposite.

It was in relationship that when I could vulnerably say, I'm afraid that if I'm not good in bed, you're going to leave me.

you know, he, the reassurance and the conversation, the relationship became, became the place for me to really to move through those insecurities and fears.

That's beautiful.

I even love the script of that.

So people can get a clean, direct, vulnerable statement.

Because of course, when you speak that kind of vulnerability, you just instantly connect because it's like, oh, of course, you know, and like you said earlier, like if you have shame around something and you don't speak it, it builds, it gets bigger.

And yet what we avoid grows.

And so, or what, you know, that shame is also healed by speaking it, by being in a relationship.

If that's available and it's safe in that relationship to do, because not all relationships earn that type of vulnerable truth.

So, feeling into when it feels like you want to open and expose that part of you while also knowing how to remain and create safety inside of yourself, just in case.

So, you're not also outsourcing that and dependent on it.

But, yes, when it's available, it's incredibly nourishing.

And it does kind of comb through another layer of

healing that isn't available when it's just sourced on your own.

Yeah.

And, you know, and then the other person who's involved, they sense something that's going on.

Yeah.

But they may not know what's going on.

And in that particular situation, John thought, oh, maybe I wasn't interested in him or maybe it was actually bringing up stories for him.

And so me voicing my insecurity ended up freeing both of us.

It ended up, you know, kind of clearing the ends like, oh, that's what's going on.

Like, I thought maybe, you know, and so it's just me, you know, in early relationships, it can be so hard to voice those things because oh gosh the person thinks we're flawed or you know but the I've found the more honest we can be if we are of course in a dynamic where that it feels safe to be that honest can really just deepen the intimacy and connect a hundred percent and that seems to be some of your medicine is honesty you know honesty with self and having that safe space on the page to then be also able to share that in relationship and I think it does come inside and then out, but it can keep healing when it's shared and experienced with other.

I want to zoom out a little bit and talk about family dynamics because I know it always comes back to and connects with family dynamics.

For somebody who learned to be agreeable, to keep the peace in their family, what do you suggest for them?

Because that was their safety strategy.

It worked until now, and maybe they want to choose differently.

What do you recommend that they do to really start honoring themselves without the guilt?

Or how do they be with the guilt once they start speaking their truth or making a different choice to be more self-honoring?

Yeah, well, you just said the medicine right there is to use your voice in ways that are self-honoring.

And with the guilt piece, what I have found so essential is that instead of tolerating disconnection or bad behavior or tolerating something that's not in alignment with me, I'm learning to tolerate the discomfort of speaking my truth, of saying what I need, of taking an action toward what's meaningful to me, even if people are disappointed or they disapprove of my choices when those choices are aligned with my authenticity it is my i must you know really make the self-honoring choice and then all it it's it's a practice intolerance it's a practice of sitting with discomfort of sitting with the guilt of saying okay guilt is visiting you right now and getting curious about that narrative like i can think about with my relationship with my mom if i set a boundary there have been times where then tremendous guilt oh no should i call her?

Should I check in to see if she's okay?

Oh, is she upset?

You know, like, okay, those are the thoughts associated here.

That's interesting.

And like having a little bit of distance where it's like, instead of like, oh, I'm just going to shut it all down.

No, no, no, okay.

This is, this is what guilt feels like in my body, which is a little, actually kind of anxious.

And here are the thoughts associated with guilt.

Okay, I'm going to tolerate that.

I'm sitting with it.

I'm going to give it five minutes.

And, you know, it's a muscle we have to build.

And so my, you know, I think the practice is just to stay with it, not to then try to numb it or jump on social media or maybe later be like, I'm so sorry, you know, because then we may backtrack and we may try to reverse our decision, our self-honoring decision, but just stay with the discomfort.

Yeah, I love what you're saying because it's like the discomfort's going to be there.

So instead of trying to manage them so you don't feel guilty codependently, it's like, let me just feel the discomfort of the sensation of guilt guilt rather than abandoning myself and then feeling that discomfort.

It's like, let me just breathe into and sit in the fire a little bit.

And sometimes I found that with guilt, it's

hiding another feeling.

It's like, if I didn't have to feel guilty, what else would I have to feel?

And it's also kind of like a surrogate to feel the guilt, but also feel what else would be there.

But like you're saying, it's this muscle.

And then we keep growing that muscle.

So it's a lot easier just to sit with it.

It moves through.

And then we can stay aligned and connected to ourselves and our truth.

And then it makes it easier.

Because even with, like you mentioned, boundaries, it's harder to re-establish boundaries than to establish them in the beginning.

And so, if we practice that, it'll be easier to set our relationships up for success.

And I know boundaries are a lot about me speaking what I'm going to do to take care of myself rather than trying to manage or control somebody else.

Like, you can't talk to me that way.

They probably will because that's their choice.

But if you are talking to me like that, I'm going to leave so that I take care of myself.

But boundaries are a big one for people.

And I feel like you do boundaries really well.

I'm curious if you want to share any wisdom or insights about boundaries.

Yeah, one of my favorite things around boundaries and the biggest aham alone for me, you just spoke to, which is this idea of the difference between boundaries and requests.

Because boundaries for a long time, I thought were voicing what I need the other person to do.

I need you to.

I think it's a request, but really it's a demand, yeah.

Lower your voice.

I need you to not talk to me that way.

I need you to.

And I one day was driving down the road and there was someone

on my tail and making me so nervous and would not, and I was, I wanted to be like, come on, slow down.

And finally, I was like, I can pull over.

And I pulled over and they passed.

And then I continued driving peacefully.

And I was like, that's the difference between a boundary and request.

Here I was, this person behind me, I was like slowing, I was going on the brakes.

like I was, I was making it worse.

How can I engage with them in my car in a way that they will behave differently?

They're not going to behave differently.

Pull over, Ramber.

And so, you know, I found that that was actually true in relationships.

I was making these requests of, please treat me like this, instead of, no, I'm going to treat me like this.

And so.

I think it really begins with what are the ways that we can honor ourselves instead of, you know,

you don't need to change your voice.

I'm just going to exit the conversation if your voice is raised.

Sometimes I feel like we forget that we have the choice and the autonomy to do that because some of these patterns go so unconscious and they're so habituated.

That even for myself, I remember I took a group on a boat trip recently and I organized the whole thing and I was kind of codependent with my work.

And then I wasn't working and I was codependent with everybody on the boat and I was creating schedules for everyone.

Then I got to a point I'm like, I've done my service to create this experience.

I'm going to let go and really choose me and choose what my desires are.

And it felt so empowering to notice it and to name it.

And then when somebody asked me to take care of the bill, because my clear request was from here on out, I'm not like

the crew captain, like organizing this experience.

I definitely don't want to be dealing with bills once we're out off the boat.

And somebody asked me to take care of the bill, and I was like, that's not mine.

And everybody celebrated me, which was, you know, a reflection of our community.

But even the person that said that, I felt almost bad, but I also felt incredibly empowered to see that I had a choice in that moment.

I feel like the more we choose and can see that we have a choice, the weaker the pattern gets and the more freedom we have to then create a new narrative and to create a new habit.

And so celebrating it, I think, is helpful and not shaming ourselves when we forget that that's an option as well.

But even those micro shifts of awareness really help and to not beat ourselves up because we want to, that's just going to have us further trapped in the same pattern.

Totally.

And then to build on that, because people then will also often ask me, well, how do I know what my boundaries are?

And sometimes not even in for the, you know, we've been talking a lot about the pleasers or the harmonizers.

And anger can be a really powerful tool.

Anger can tell us, wait, that's a line for me.

And that line was just crossed.

And so, again, it's not about, okay, I need to now take this anger out on this other person, but I'm going to allow this anger to be an illuminator and a friend of, wait, what is it that's happening here that does not work for me?

And then what does it look like to honor and take care of myself here?

Yeah.

Yeah, like you're saying that anger is feedback, that that boundary was there.

And it's also feedback that we care, that there's something in there that we care about.

And so extracting the wisdom in it and then upgrading the pattern, the method.

But with anger, I don't think a lot of us had healthy examples of anger.

I think, and I just want to name that anger is an emotion.

Anger is allowed.

It's healthy.

Violence is an action that's separate than the feeling of anger and so given we haven't had a lot of good models of anger what has supported you in expressing anger without shutting it down or blowing up i think i shut down and blow up

yeah that's true that's that's honest yes

wait okay to really have the awareness of my reactivity

is my honest answer.

Like, oh, okay, here are moments when I'm shutting down because I'm afraid of the reaction if I were to speak up, or here are the times that I actually feel safe enough to blow up, but that's not how I want to necessarily

treat my partner, for example.

And so I think breath, honestly, is the thing of like, okay, I'm noticing this come online and I'm glad I'm allowing myself to feel this anger and this rage because it has been a newer feeling for me, not something that I felt necessarily safe with for a lot of my life.

Okay, what's the information here?

But before I even think about the anger, because I think we can get I can I'm the type of person you can like start analyzing it before I go allow myself to feel it and so you know breathing into the anger feeling the anger leaving the room and having a beat with myself for a moment or even just voicing like I'm feeling really angry right now

and I don't want to do something that I regret but I just want to name that this is making me angry as is something that I've I've found helpful to put voice to it

Yeah, I think that's really healthy.

And

taking, maybe it's not appropriate to express the anger in that moment, but then to go away and get in your car and yell or like some people will hit a pillow or whatever.

I know there's like sometimes when an emotion has been suppressed so much, it's almost like this dam of unexpressed anger that needs to come up.

And sometimes there's those rage rooms or things, ways to exaggerate it a little bit more of the 70s, 80s, where it was like, you know, fully allow it.

And then it gets a little bit more nuanced and subtle and somatic.

Like you're talking about the breath, just feeling it.

I remember the first time I felt it.

I was in getting licensed as a somatic psychotherapist, and I just felt this wave of anger from my feet all the way up.

It was like rage.

And I was like,

and I was breathing into it.

It was, I was like, no wonder I, people hang out here.

They can get addicted to anger and not feel sadness.

I thought anger was bad.

So I jumped to sadness underneath.

But when I started waking up to anger, I'm like, this is intoxicating and powerful.

And I can see why people get addicted.

And I think people that are addicted to anger is because it worked in their family system.

And so also for those people, learning how to move it through their body without blowing up, I think is going to be more of the edge for them.

So we kind of, we fall in different ends of the spectrum.

But I want to talk about something that you mentioned earlier around you talking about feeling like you needed to earn love.

What supported you in unlearning that?

Yeah, you know, I had to realize that the belief driving a lot of my behavior and action was that love is outside of me.

Love is something I must must earn and whether that was through what I was accomplishing and achieving whether that was in friendships and relationships it was you know there was this performance attached to ways I was showing up thinking that this is how I received love.

I always feel like this sounds cheesy, but the truth is, is that it was no, well, love is inside of me.

And I just had to keep coming back to I am the source of my love.

I am the source of my life.

I am the source of my love.

And noticing, and my journey includes trying to accomplish a bunch of things or trying to get love and in not the right places.

And so there's a lot of trial and error.

And then me getting to the other side of a big successful career moment and being like, well, man, I feel nothing.

Or at least temporarily.

Yeah.

Or like, oh, I got the guy to love me that, and this is the guy that like never chooses anyone and he's chose me.

Oh, and I still feel emptiness on the inside.

And so it was, I think, a period of me trying to fill that void and finding nothing there that was even the wake-up call for me to look at, wait, what's going on here?

And instead, okay,

well, if I love myself, what's important to me?

How do I want to spend my time?

How do I show up?

How do I take care of myself?

How do I eat?

You know, like, what is the relationship of loving myself really look like in a very practical day-to-day?

So making space to write, move my body, spend time with people people I care about.

Like those are the things that help me feel like I'm loving myself.

I wrote this book because writing is the thing that enlivens me more than anything.

There is no greater expression of love to me than like putting it on the page and being able to find the right sentence to capture that, you know, that to me is love, it's joy, it's self-expression.

And so

Really letting my life kind of be like this love letter to myself and the way that I live has been something that now it's just, I feel like I'm now flowing with love.

Yeah, once you wake up to the source of it.

I'm curious, how much of this relates back to your dad, what you mentioned about wanting a deeper connection with him?

Yeah, you know, it's when I was nine years old, and I tell this story and how I started the book.

And of course, the title is Love a Bull, Love Able, and realizing, you know, I'm not able to love if I can't love myself.

And the origin really was I went to the hospital to meet my dad when I was nine years old.

And when I walked into the room, because he got in the car accident, his contacts got in the car accident when I was three.

He didn't pass away until I was 12.

And for those nine years, he had a very traumatic, he had a traumatic brain injury and, you know, was not fully conscious.

And so I go into the hospital room.

I'm going to meet my dad today.

And, you know, he was like, M, but, you know, he couldn't really, very low functioning.

And

I wanted so badly for him to see me and know me and connect with me and love me.

And

he did say, I love you.

And for my nine-year-old girl, I was like, oh my god, my dad just said, I love you.

He is a brain injury.

He can't possibly do this.

And then he turned to my mom and he said, I love you.

And I was kind of like, okay.

It's my mom.

It's okay.

And then a nurse walked in and he said, I love you.

And nine-year-old me was shattered.

And the nurse said, Oh, he's our lover here.

He tells everyone, I love you, I love you, I love you.

And so, you know, it's such like a core memory of mine where here I was seeking this person outside of me to fill what felt like the void of father.

And so that I think began my search outside and to the point that I actually made up a story and told my friends at the playground that when I walked in the room, he said, I love you to me and only me.

And he knew my name.

And the nurses said it was a miracle.

And, you know, I made up this whole story that I believed for 25 years and so you know it's it's so interesting to see like oh it was so painful for my little girl of course

to meet a father who couldn't see her or love her in the way that I saw fathers love their daughters

and so I think that really began I like kind of got trapped in that room with him

and I got trapped in love is out there rather than mother's in me.

Not only is love out there, but love is out there and it can't meet me.

So I have to try and try and try.

It took a lot of

work to come, a lot of years to learn to come up to myself.

Yeah.

And I imagine that also was part of what initiated some of your self-discovery and self-healing.

Because I think in some ways that can propel and activate psychological healing to really be the presence of that love that we wanted from whoever it was, fill in the blank.

And then also spiritually to wake up to the being the source of love.

So some some of these challenges also become the very breadcrumbs to offer us some of the deepest gifts of our life, which I know you are an embodiment of.

Absolutely.

So, you've pivoted both personally and professionally, because I know you used to also work at a startup, a tech company, and you also reinvented yourself as an author and totally transitioned into following your heart in that work.

What would you say to somebody that's wanting to make that pivot professionally?

Because I I imagine there's similar threads of the courage and the honesty, but maybe somebody that's like, gosh, I'm so late in my career.

Can I really make this jump?

Or, you know, somebody that's kind of doubting themselves and convincing themselves that they can't.

Now isn't the good time.

The ego is always too old or I'm too young.

It's never now.

And yet you've had the courage to realign with your truth in all areas of your life.

And I would love just to hear if there's some words of encouragement for people that are at that crossroads.

Yeah, I think it's never too late to step toward what is truly meaningful to you.

And,

you know, I, of course, it was in my early 20s.

I like blew up my world, my career in tech and moved to New York.

And I had all this freedom and no obligations and no children.

And, and we don't always have to blow it all up.

It can look like, you know, what is, it can look like 30 minutes every day of being curious.

It can look like something we pursue on the side.

And I actually worked with and coached a lot of people way back in the day.

It was called the passion experiment.

But it's what is that thing that moves you that you want to devote yourself to?

Do you want to play music?

Do you want to help people realize their potential and coach them?

Do you want to be a writer?

Do you want to make art?

Like whatever that is for you.

Find time to do the thing that moves you.

And I think the beauty is in the time on the thing that moves you, regardless of what it becomes.

And so I would say just makes, you know, make a little space and you never know.

Like, I never thought I was going to be an author.

That wasn't the plan.

I just couldn't not write.

And so here I was working in this tech company and kind of journaling about, journaling online in a Tumblr, because that's what we had back then.

Instagram didn't exist, journaling about the adventures and misadventures of my path and trying to like find the wisdom in my journey.

And then all of a sudden people started reading it and like one thing led to another.

It wasn't, I never was like, I'm gonna be an author, and I'm gonna start a blog, and I want to build a platform, and I want to get an audience.

It was like, I have to write.

So, what is that thing that you have to do?

Spend time with it, you know, Elizabeth Gilbert says, have an affair with it, you know, have an affair with the thing that moves you and kind of let it unfold.

Julia Cameron says, you know, a thousand helping hands, which actually comes from Joseph Campbell, when we commit to the thing that brings us alive, when we follow our bliss, there are a thousand helping hands.

The person who ended up, who's been my lifelong literary agent, I went to some random dinner and sat next to a stranger and told her about this idea I had for a book.

And she's like, you should meet my agent.

And then here I am.

So it's like, you never know

when you

commit to that thing, how it will unfold.

But if you know the why, that's what matters.

In some ways, I think if you say, I'm going to be a writer, and then it's like we need to hit certain benchmarks, and then we compare ourselves versus like the true desire was to write because you needed to write, because you come alive when you write.

And so there's something that feels a lot softer and more encouraging about just following what brings us alive, even if it's 30 minutes a day or starting with a journaling practice nightly.

Like I'm doing seven minutes.

I literally play one song and I write.

And even last night, I just was writing a love letter to myself to really choose to love the parts of myself that I've judged.

And it was incredibly nourishing.

And I just ended up voice noting everybody on my team, like because I was feeling loved up and I was expressing that love naturally.

And so I love that you're just saying carve out the time and stay pure with what the intention is instead of getting into the mind about here are the expectations of what it needs to be or give me because that will

it will not only not flourish but will feel disappointed and frustrated.

It's like allow it to be what it wants to be and it will blossom.

The relationship, the passion project without all of those expectations expectations on it.

I'm curious in parting and leaving people, what do you really want them to get from your body of work?

Some wisdom from your journey?

Maybe something I haven't asked you, but you just feel like would really serve people.

What do you want them to know?

I want them to know, and we touched on this, what's coming up for me now is the idea that disciplining others is a skill.

And it's a skill that we are not taught.

And it's a skill that in fact we are told to not do don't disappoint people don't let them down like don't be selfish but really we have to disappoint people so that we don't disappoint ourselves and to

make anything meaningful to make choices that are authentic and true for us we can't please everyone and i really want to encourage you in following a path of truth over expectations and what is right for you versus what other people want for you.

Learn to disappoint and feel the discomfort of disappointing others because that is where you will find your bravery and your strength and your clarity and the truth.

Is there a story in your own life where, besides, you know, the biggest one that we've been speaking of, even if it was a small one, where that disappointment actually led to greater connection?

You know, I'm releasing this book, and there are a lot of personal stories about my mother.

And I

terrified for mom to read it she's actually getting mailed her copy right now but I've sat her down I've told her the stories in the book that are featured and just recently told her and I think she will be disappointed I think there will things that will be hard for her to read

and but my fear has been disappointing her and

As a result of me honestly saying, here are the things that I wrote about and here are some of the things that you're going to see from my point of view, I've actually felt closer to her and she's received it differently than I expected her to.

She's kind of like, oh yeah, what did you write about this and this?

And I was like, well, yeah, I did kind of write about that.

And she's like, okay, well,

you know, and then, you know, she was kind of playful about it.

So I, you know, I kind of had all of these things locked inside of me that if I tell the truth in my experience, it's going to be so upsetting and hurtful.

And she's going to be disappointed.

And, you know, and she's like, well, what do you, you present me as a bad mom?

And I'm like, no, I present you as like a whole woman.

And, you know, my flaws are there.

And some of the challenges that we face are there.

But like, ultimately, I think, you know,

people are going to be like, your mom is strong and awesome.

It's led us these vulnerable conversations is that actually led us to, led me to feel closer to her.

It was beautiful.

I just honor your courage to speak your truth and to come back into alignment with it over and over in different areas of your life.

And I know Lovable is going to serve so many people.

Talk to us about how people can stay connected.

Obviously, we'll put links in the show notes for people to be able to buy the book.

You are an incredible writer.

I told you last time you're one of my favorite writers.

So I'm just excited to dive deeper into it.

But tell us a little bit more about where we stay in touch with you.

Lovable is available everywhere books are sold and you can follow me on Instagram, hey Amber Ray.

My website is amberray.com and that will have all of the offerings there.

Such a gift, Amber.

I love you so much.

Thanks for coming back on the podcast.

Thanks for having me.

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I have so much more magic I want to share with you, and I cannot wait to do that soon.

But for now, I just want to say thank you so much for being an example of what it's like to live with an open heart and mind in the world.