The Scientific & Spiritual Breakthrough That Could Change The World | Dr. Jude Currivan | EP 102

Nothing in our universe is separate from anything else.

It's at every scale.

Universal consciousness is the nature of our reality, and we are microcosms of that living sentience.

Each of us are unique expressions of our universe's meaning, purpose, and potential.

When we do an analysis of human conflicts, from huge world wars to tiny insurgencies, we find something remarkable.

They found the same relationships between destruction and frequency as earthquake, which show that we are embedded in a fractal universe and our collective choices play out because the underlying consciousness is separation.

This literally turns our dis-ease of separation and all that comes from it completely on its head.

We can evolve our consciousness so that the underlying perspective we have is of wholeness.

Instead of outbreaks of conflicts, we can play out peace.

We have so much power because we are divine beings.

It really is our collective choices as to where this goes.

Welcome back to the Healing and Human Potential podcast.

This is such a beautiful episode where we explore the mysteries of the universe.

We talk about oneness from a scientific perspective as well as purpose and how conflict may actually be correlated to natural disasters.

This episode invites a more connected way to view life, one where we're not separate from the universe, but we're expressions of it.

And joining me is Dr.

Jude Kiravan, who is a cosmologist and the author of The Cosmic Hologram.

She's a powerful bridge between science and spirituality, and she'll break things down in this conversation and it will blow your mind.

So grateful to have you on, Jude.

And I'm going to just dive right in because there's so much I want to connect with you about.

You have such a brilliant mind and heart and the combination of the two is just, I know my audience is going to love hearing all your different perspectives.

And so I wanted to start off because I know most people believe that the universe started with the Big Bang.

And I love that you've reimagined this as the Big Breath.

Can you unpack what you mean by this?

I'll be delighted to.

Well, first of all, I'm not disputing the science of what we call a Big Bang.

In other words, our universe began around 13.8 billion years ago in a tiny, it's tiniest state.

The Big Bang was a sort of a slightly facetious name given to it by a cosmologist at the time who basically didn't believe that our universe had a finite beginning.

So he called it the Big Bang, but it was never big.

It was always tiny.

But now, as we have much more evidence, we know that it didn't begin in an implied chaos.

Because if I say to you, bang, you think, whoa, chaos and explosion and all the rest of it.

It wasn't.

It was incredibly fine-tuned and ordered.

And from that moment, from that first moment, that tiny, exquisitely ordered first moment, as space has expanded ever since and time's flowed forward ever since, the story of our universe, its journey from

simplicity to complexity has continued.

But the point is, by calling it still a big bang, we still have that, you know, implied chaos.

So I came up with the term big big breath for a number of reasons.

First of all, a breath really reflects, it echoes that order, that evolutionary impulse, that evolutionary flow.

Secondly, it reflects the ancient wisdom of ancient India that talked of our universe being the out-breath of Brahman.

Thirdly, Sanskrit, the ancient language of India, the word for breath, prana, is the same as spirit.

So, there's that connection with consciousness and sentience,

which I write about.

And then finally, we see our universe as vast.

And yet when we consider that ongoing big breath, it wasn't just the first moment, it's that ongoing big breath.

Perhaps we can realize that it is intimate because the universe's big breath.

breathes to our little breaths in every moment so we can consciously consciously breathe in the living, loving reality of our universe and then breathe out our living,

loving expression into the world.

So there are many reasons, but that's why I term it Big Breath.

It's so good.

It's poetic.

It reminds me to breathe, but the intimacy, the connection, which also drives me to another quote that you have that I love, which is that we don't have consciousness.

We in the universe are consciousness.

And I know you also talk about and describe the universe as a great thought.

Can you unpack what you mean by that?

Yeah, I'd be delighted to.

Well, first of all, many traditions, many wisdom teachings talk of consciousness, mind and consciousness as being primary to the nature of reality.

And yet, our scientific worldview for the last several hundred years and even till now is based on a view of our universe which is material which is made up of separate things and where consciousness somehow over that 13.8 billion years of evolution has finally arisen from brains human brains and other animal brains

what we're finding the evidence now is turning that view on its head And what it's showing is the appearance of our universe is real.

It's energy and it's matter and it's space and its time.

But they emerge from deeper levels of what we could call cosmic mind, as Einstein referred to it.

We could call it God or great mystery or great spirit.

But basically, the reality of our universe emerges from these deeper realms of causation and universal consciousness and then expresses itself in its glory and its wonder of our universe.

And that's why I say, because the evidence supports it, that that consciousness, that universal consciousness has been there from the beginning.

It is imbued.

It is all pervasive in the entirety of our universe.

And so

universal consciousness is the nature of our reality.

And we, of course, are microcosms of that living sentience.

And that's why I say mind and consciousness are what we have.

They didn't somehow, you know, emerge and through us.

They've always, universal consciousness has been the nature of our universe as reality from the very first moment.

And you mentioned as a great thought.

That was a quote over 100 years ago, I think, by someone called Sir James Jeans.

And he said, it's looking as if, and we're now 100 years further on with all the evidence we have, that our universe is rather than a great thing, a great thought.

And what we're saying in terms of universal consciousness is exactly that.

Our universe is a great thought of an eternal and an infinite cosmos.

Yeah.

And the consciousness is also prior to thought, right?

So then it's like consciousness sees thought, thoughts come and go.

form comes and go, but that primordial ground of being, the quantum field or however you want to call it, is prior to all of form.

And it is universal, Alyssa, too, because sometimes I hear folks say, you know, I am the universe and I understand that

and I would disagree with it.

We are microcosms of this great universal thought.

We are each unique expressions of that.

And it flows through us and we are embedded in this great adventure, this evolutionary adventure of consciousness that we call our universe.

And I know you also talk about quantum entanglement.

For those that don't know what that is, can you first start talking about what quantum entanglement is and maybe from more of like a fifth grade level so that more of my audience can

do my very best.

I'll capture your brilliance.

I will do my very best.

Well, the whole idea of what we call quantum entanglement came from the first discoveries, again, over 100 years ago of the world, the quantum world.

And when we say quantum, it's almost become a brand now.

But what quantum means is packet a packet that's all it means and it's a packet of energy so before the the discoveries of the early 20th century energy was thought to be continuous and we see it in the form of waves and yet when we look deeper we realize that it is in it's packets of energy so instead of being continuous it's more like notes notes of music And that is how energy and matter are expressed, because energy and matter are equivalent.

Your most famous equation in the world is Einstein's equation of E equals M C squared.

And what that does, it ties energy and matter together, woven together by the speed of light.

So the quantum physicists were realizing that energy and matter are quantized.

In other words, they come as little packets.

of energy and in the form of frequency and wavelengths.

But then they were also realizing that something very odd was happening.

That when an observer looked at a quantum

phenomenon, an observer changed what was being seen, what was being measured.

So we could no longer assume that the observer of something is separate from that which is observed.

So that added another, you know, stone in the pond

big time.

And then there was a realization that the theoretical framework for quantum physics meant that everything in existence was essentially inseparable from everything else.

And at first,

that was thought to be just at the quantum scale, which is tiny, it's subatomic.

But over many years of experiments, it was realized that that inseparability,

what we call entanglement, actually was experimentally proven to the scale of molecules, which are really big compared to atoms.

But then in 2017 and 2018, that experimental proof really went big time because scientists were able to show that inseparability between photons of light in a laboratory.

with starlight from 600 light years away coming down a telescope and then down through another telescope, light from what's called a quasar, which is a very, very, very active galactic center, 12.2 billion light years away.

So all of that was sort of coming together and showing this inseparability.

Now that inseparability is sometimes called entanglement.

And sometimes it's called non-locality.

But its essence is that nothing in our universe is separate from anything else.

We're all part of the same whole.

And that's not just at the quantum scale, it's at every scale.

It's the nature of our universal reality.

And just to put the cherry on top of the...

icing on top of the cake

in 2022 the Nobel Prize for Physics was given to three researchers who had been studying entanglement inseparate universal inseparability for decades.

And the point is, the Physics Nobel Prize is only given to what's called settled science.

In other words, nobody is saying this isn't the case.

Everybody's saying, oh, yeah, right.

Non-controversial.

We now know our universe.

is essentially entangled, essentially non-local, essentially

everything in it is inseparable and interdependent with everything else.

There is so much I want to dive into around that.

It's so beautiful.

It doesn't it, because it turns everything on its head.

Because this literally turns our ideas of separation.

This means that conflicts are a natural behavior of a worldview of separation.

This worldview of wholeness means that peace is the natural outcome because this literally turns our ideas of separation and all that comes from it completely on its head.

Yeah, so this is essentially scientifically proving oneness, right?

This is that what is being observed and the observing is not separate.

Not even the observer, because that implies a person, the observing and the observed, there's no separation.

No separation.

Which is mind-blowing.

And what sages and spiritual traditions and enlightened beings have been pointing to and the science is really backing.

I want to go into that because I think it's one of the most powerful things I heard in your research and what you've been sharing about.

It's especially potent and relevant now more than ever, which is, and maybe you can share some of the science around this, the correlation between human conflict and natural disasters.

Can you share with us some of the conflict and correlation that

has been discovered in science?

Yeah, I'd be happy to, because what I'm sharing, Alyssa, is evidence at all scales of existence and many different fields of research.

So this understanding of unity, wholeness, expressed in diversity, isn't just coming from physics and cosmology.

It's coming from many, many different fields of research and literary at all scales of existence.

And that's why I think it's so powerful.

And what we're finding is the same patterns that are actually based on this underlying understanding.

They reveal themselves.

in similar patterns and those patterns scale up and scale down and they're called fractal patterns and we see them throughout you know from the scale of atoms to the scale of the whole of space through something called the CMB, the cosmic microwave background, which is ancient radiation that fills the whole of space.

We see the temperature differences within the cosmic microwave background also are fractal patterned.

So atoms to the whole of space.

Now, at the scale of us, the scale of our planetary home, we see fractal patterns, for example, in mountain ranges, the shapes and sizes and relationships of mountain ranges, river systems.

But we also see them in human systems.

So, for example, the same patterns that we see underlying ecosystems are the same patterns that we see underlying the internet.

and the relationality within the internet.

And what you're referring to is we see the same patterns and the same relationships because they're slightly different in the relationships.

For example, between in earthquakes,

for many, many years, studies of earthquakes have been showing there's no such thing as an average earthquake.

When we look at hundreds of earthquakes from huge ones like the other day.

in Kamchatka, 8.8 on the Richter scale, down to tiny ones.

And we graph them.

We put them on a graph with an x-axis and a y-axis.

And on one axis, we show their frequency.

And on the other axis, we show their destructive power, which for earthquakes is called the Richter scale.

And what we find is something remarkable, because every earthquake is somewhere along a straight line from the very powerful to the tiniest.

And the relationship is that the more powerful the earthquake, the less frequent.

But it applies across this, relationship, is applied to all earthquakes.

Now, this is where it gets really interesting.

Because when we do an analysis of human conflicts,

and

that was done for conflicts over several hundred years

by a gentleman called Lewis Richardson after the Second World War, and he analyzed the conflicts in the same way: the frequency against their destructive power in conflicts, human fatalities.

And then later, a gentleman called Ian Johnson at the University of Miami and his colleagues did the same for insurgencies in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And guess what?

When they analyzed all the conflicts over hundreds of years, from huge world wars to tiny insurgencies, they found the same relationships.

between destruction and frequency as for earthquakes, which show that, you know, our inseparability is the reality.

We are part of, we are embedded in a fractal universe.

And our collective choices,

for example, in the case of conflicts, play out, but they play out because the underlying consciousness

that is played out through them

is perspective of a worldview of separation.

If we

have a collective perspective of separation that then expresses itself in conflict, we can evolve our consciousness so that the underlying, if you like, frequency, the underlying perspective we have is of wholeness,

then we can play out peace.

Instead of outbreaks of conflicts, it wouldn't just be outbreaks of peace.

It would peace as a natural way of being.

And it makes me realize, like, as we wake up to our wholeness, to the interconnectedness, I don't even want to say connected because that even implies too, but just the oneness, as we wake up to the unifying field of all of it, then we become more conscious creators around what we want to do in the world.

And are we supporting peace or conflict?

And I'm just thinking about the internet and how

part of us doing our part is to learn to regulate our nervous system so that we're not adding to the collective stress or fear and to do some of the healing work as well so that we can, right, add to the being a beneficial presence in the world rather than more division and more rage.

I'm wondering if you want to speak to any of that and what you would want people to know.

I would, and thank you for that point.

I mean, the internet in a way

is neutral.

It is

in a way, a human ecosystem.

That's why the same pattern, and it's not been analyzed recently because the level of data to analyze it will be vast.

But in the early days of the internet, there there were researchers who looked at the connectivity between, you know, the URLs and websites and the backbones and all the rest of it, and looked at the way in which it operated

and then analyzed that and realized it was the same connectivity, the same relational interdependence

that plays out through an ecosystem.

Now,

no one human person designed the internet.

It came about through three three confluences of effort.

And one of those was by Tim Berners-Lee, who basically created the language for the internet and gave it to humanity as a gift.

So there was a lot of potential and promise of the internet.

And it came into being in ways that can be used in so many you know, different ways, for good or for ill, for healing or for destruction.

And so

when we bring our consciousness to the internet, you know, we can bring it as conscious

creators of healing, of health, of well-being, of joy, of laughter, of gratitude, of love,

or we can bring it in different ways.

And part of the interesting, an interesting question I've always asked about the internet is the anonymity it enables.

Because if I show up in the world, I show up as Jude.

And I hope I show up authentically me, but I don't hide behind anonymity, you know?

And yet we can go onto the internet and instead of me showing up as Jude, I could show up as whoever and hide behind that anonymity.

Now, I understand that there are parts of the world where showing up authentically is a very dangerous thing to do.

But I also feel the downside of the anonymity has been the levels of misinformation, disinformation, unkindness, cruelty, all the other things that we know pervades the internet.

So what I would suggest and invite, and I know you do this so beautifully, I would just invite us to bring our hearts.

Just as we would bring our hearts to a friendship, bring our hearts to an an online communities,

however we may do that, and bring our love and bring our care.

Because the more of us that do that, the less there's room for the other aspects that I discussed.

And what Greg, I know you've had Greg on your show, and I know he's talking in incredibly eloquent ways about our powers as human beings, and not to give our power away in any way, whether it's in transhuman ways or any other ways.

We have so much

power because we are divine beings

having a human experience.

So let's bring that, not just to the internet, but let's just express that in every way through our lives.

That's beautiful.

And I think it really ties into your work around coherence as well.

Like really, and I experience you as very much heart-centered and you have a brilliant mind.

And that combination, that bridge is such medicine and such a gift.

And I know a lot of spiritual additions, it's like heart, gut, head.

So having all of us being our full potential.

And I think that as we do that for ourselves, that brings it to our communities and is a reflection online, which then we do make a difference.

We do matter.

Our energy matters.

And we can hear, even if it's a different opinion, with an open heart.

And to really see the reflection of them reflecting a part of myself so that I can learn to come into harmony with that part of myself.

And maybe I don't agree, but I can hear with an open heart and investigate and find what can I learn from this or what's my truth around this.

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But I would love for you to speak a little bit more about coherence and if you could just first briefly describe it and then how understanding about coherence can change our day-to-day life.

I'd be happy to.

Well, first of all, when I talk about coherence, I often use the example of a difference between a light bulb and a laser.

A light bulb of 100 watts lights a room.

A light bulb in that circumstance is usually given off white light, and white light is all of the frequencies and the wavelengths of the visible spectrum.

So it's different wavelengths and different frequencies, and it's directed throughout the room.

And the wavelengths are not necessarily in phase.

In other words, peaks of one wavelength can correlate with the troughs of another.

They're not in sync, as it were.

Coherence is an example of a laser.

the radiation is of the same frequency the same wavelength it's pointing in the same direction and all the peaks and all the troughs are aligned now the difference in power is a light bulb of a hundred watts can light a room a laser of a hundred watts can cut through steel

that's coherence and when we are present

we are able to be in coherence because when we're looking forward or backwards or side we're we're distracted we're rather like a light bulb yeah

when we bring ourselves into presence we bring ourselves into that sense of coherence and in that coherence it's the here

so we can we can hear and we can be here like that cohere coherence yeah and how would that change in your eyes somebody really practicing coherence how does that change their the way that they live day to day

first of all in my experience being present, being less distracted, being able to, we talked about breath earlier, literally to be able to breathe into that presence.

So to feel centered and grounded.

And what that does is it really supports us being more resilient.

being able to be flexible, to be able, you said something so beautiful about we may disagree with people,

but we still can understand, we can hear, can be in dialogue, we can work together.

Coherence just enables that to happen.

Because it also,

I would suggest, we become more authentically who we are.

We're not trying to be somebody else or who we think we should be.

When we become coherent, we're who we really are.

Yeah, and how nourishing that is for the nervous system and our health.

And then that feeds our relationships.

Yeah.

And so I hear the light bulb is kind of diffuse awareness.

It's leaking some of it in the past and in the future versus just focusing in on being fully present.

And that's where intuition, I would say, more synchronicity, more energy, peace, safety is only found in the present moment, not in the mind, not in the future.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And I love what you just said there because, yeah, I see intuition as our superpower.

And when we're present,

we can just hear our intuitions more loudly.

They're just clearer.

And that is so empowering and inspiring.

The other thing is, I think when we're present and coherent, we notice synchronicities.

We can attend to them and notice them.

And I love synchronicities.

I mean, I love them.

And

they do not in any way violate, you know,

the understanding of universal consciousness.

They don't violate causality.

They just bring us into the here and the moment of potential possibility.

And I wanted to ask you, because I know some people talk about the universe being a simulation or a random accident.

And I know that you hold a different perspective.

Can you share with us about what the perspective is that you hold and what might be missing from thinking of it just as a simulation?

Yeah, I'd be happy to.

I mean, first of all, you said two words, simulation and random.

And

I am not a fan of either.

I know.

I'm aware.

I'm setting you up.

I know.

I'm happy to be set up.

I don't tend to use the word random because when you look at all the evidence,

I don't see randomness in existence, in universal existence.

I see differentiation, of course, unity and diversity and differentiation.

I see potentialities and differences there.

But I don't see randomness.

And again, in the writings that I've done, I cite references of scientific research that's shown that beneath the surface of what appears to be random, there is order.

So we can see, we can look at things and think, oh, they're random.

I mean, we talk, for example, about the

just one small example.

We talk about people's heights being random.

And yet everyone

who's ever been human has come in a range of heights that has varied at adulthood from something like two and a half feet to eight feet.

And they form what's called a bell curve with a very tall at one end, very few of them, very tall, very small, very few of those at the other end, and then a range of

heights.

But we still come in that range.

There's nobody I've ever known who's 20 feet high.

or two inches high or whatever.

And yet we say that heights are random.

They're not.

They're patterned within a collective whole.

And when we look at apparently random phenomena, we see that actually underlying it is order and pattern all the way through.

And then we get to simulation.

I do appreciate there is a breadth of views on this.

And in fact, some people are using the word simulation almost as shorthand for a conscious universe.

But I don't use the word because it has so many other connotations.

And there are two main bodies of thought on the simulation

idea.

One is that we're real, but the rest of the universe is a simulation.

And that comes out of an episode of Star Trek.

And I love Star Trek, but I'm not buying into that one because there's no logical, there's just no logic to we're real and everything's a simulation.

But the other one, which I feel is potentially problematic, more problematic, is that our universe itself is a simulation.

Now, I use the word simulation in ways that relate to games.

And I also relate to simulations that they are created by somebody, somewhere, somehow.

And the simulation,

this simulation idea tends to think of our universe as created by an extremely intelligent species.

And

I would suggest that if we replace that by cosmic mind,

then instead of needing to feel that we're simulations,

we can see ourselves as microcosms of that cosmic mind.

Whereas in a simulation, we're like the pawns.

We're just, you know, moved around the game, as it were.

And I feel that is disempowering.

And as Greg would say so beautifully, this is time for us to empower our remembering of who we really are, not to disempower ourselves further.

And that's where I feel the simulation idea is problematic.

And there's no evidence for it.

Whereas the evidence for us being sentient microcosmic co-creators of a universal consciousness is very powerful and very wide-ranging.

And I know you talk about the universe being more like a cosmic hologram.

Can you talk to us about what you mean by that?

Unpack that for us.

I'm going to probably have to assume that your community and the folks who are, I'm very grateful for watching us, are familiar with a hologram.

Yes?

I imagine that they are.

Yeah.

Okay.

So I remember my first experience of a hologram was in Star Wars, the first Star Wars film, where C3PO, oh no, R2D2, I apologise, R2D2, Luke was sort of trying to get something from R2D2 and this hologram of Princess Leia was projected out and that was the first time I'd actually seen a hologram and so they've now become incredibly sophisticated to the extent that there's a in London there's a concert a venue of ABBA

as holograms And it's quite extraordinary.

And these are the holograms of ABBA when they were younger doing all their music.

Incredibly powerful.

But these are human-made holograms.

And the way they were formed originally is you take a beam of light and you bounce it, you separate it into two or split it into two, not separate it, you split it into two, and you bounce one part of the beam off an object, and say an apple.

And when that light comes back, bounced off the apple, it brings all sorts of information about the apple, its colour, its texture.

Now, when that light with all that information is recombined with the original beam, a two-dimensional pattern of information is created.

When you throw another beam of light through that two-dimensional film with all that pattern of all that information,

you project a hologram.

And that projected hologram is a three-dimensional, it has the three-dimensional appearance of the object, which is an apple, or it could be Princess Leia.

Okay.

So that's it.

That's the human ways in which we create holograms.

Now, when as cosmologists, we started to study black holes, which are where massive stars at the end of their lives can't sustain the radiation that holds their body.

they collapse they gravitationally collapse and massive stars the gravity is so strong that the collapse collapse collapse continues it gets so strong that they collapse beyond a threshold where not even light can escape

hence the black hole but when we were looking at what's the story of these stars and what happens to all the information that those stars have embodied in their life cycle where does it go

because if it disappears

through that event horizon, we have to throw the whole of quantum theory out the door.

And I can't explain why in two minutes and

to folks who don't have a science sort of background.

But what we found instead is that information doesn't disappear.

It's actually held on that event horizon.

Now, stars are spheres.

They collapse into spheres.

of event horizons.

So when we talk about the information of a black hole, it's not proportional to the three-dimensional volume of that black hole.

It's proportional to the two-dimensional surface area.

Now,

that then

got a sort of aha moment for investigators because we realize that's what happens on a hologram.

When we try and create a hologram of a three-dimensional apple and get the information about it, we actually have all of that information on that two-dimensional surface.

And then, when the light is shone through it, it projects a hologram.

Well, we extended the black hole's understanding of information as proportional to the surface area, and we took that to the scale of the whole universe.

And so, that's how universal mind creates the reality we call energy, matter, space-time of our universe from the boundary

of what we call the space-time of our universe.

So our universe is literally, and this is where all the evidence is leading, and I would say most cosmologists completely appreciate this now.

We can describe our universe as a cosmic hologram.

But it ties in with everything else we're talking about because it's the how

our universe as

a great thought

as a cosmic mind, as it were, creates the reality of our universe in a way that enables it to meaningfully exist and purposely evolve from simplicity to complexity to ever greater levels of individuated self-awareness.

This is the how, this is the container within which

its wholeness is expressed in every part, because the beauty of a hologram is if we were the the hologram of an apple for example if we were to take all of its tiny bits what's called its pixels every pixel would hold the image of the whole now our universe a bit more complex than that because it it but it's pixelated

at a tiny tiny tiny scale just as our high definition holograms are pixelated

Our universe is pixelated.

Its information is pixelated.

But its scale is trillions of trillions of times smaller than our best high definition.

So that's why it matters because it shows how the container that is our conscious universe is able to express through its its

evolutionary impulse and flow and why we can come and why and how we can come together and have this conversation.

Miracle after miracle.

And I'm curious, in your point of view, what do black holes not just say about the universe, but say say about us as human beings?

What we're finding about the universe is that black holes formed, began to form very early.

And they're great stabilizers.

We don't just have black holes the size of

that were massive stars that

pulled into black holes that are quite small, but we have what's called super massive black holes, which we're pretty much finding at the center of every galaxy, certainly spiral galaxies before they get into old age.

And what we're finding that they do is they're formed of hundreds of thousands of

stellar masses, you know, masses the size of our sun.

But what they do is they stabilize galactic formation.

So we have at the center of our Milky Way a supermassive black hole called Sagittarius A, and it's about the diameter of our solar system,

but it has stabilized and enabled the ongoing evolution of our galaxy and to the point where planetary systems can form and biological organisms can evolve and onwards to here and now.

So they are very, very important.

And we can model the whole universe essentially, as I've mentioned, from the studies of black holes.

I love that you just study the mysteries of the universe.

I think it's such a beautiful way to devote your life to just to investigating and exploring.

And I'm also curious because I know a lot of people feel and struggle with purpose.

And I'm curious about the science behind it.

I'm wondering, are we encoded with something we're meant to express?

Like what has science shared about that?

And if you had any words of wisdom for people that are struggling to find their purpose?

Yeah, well, I would say we don't have a purpose.

We are purpose.

By our very

being here and now and existing we we embody innate purpose and and you know going back to the very beginning of our universe you know the evidence is showing that it meaningfully evolves sorry it meaningfully exists to purposefully evolve from simplicity to ever greater complexity and and self-awareness.

So our universe embodies, innately embodies meaning and purpose.

So everything in it is part of that meaning and purpose.

That's the first point I would say.

The second point I would say is that each of us are unique expressions of our universe's meaning, purpose and potential.

When we come into this beautiful earthwalk,

you talk about resonance and coherence earlier.

The sooner that we can

feel

what makes our heart sing and follow what makes our hearts sing, the more it seems to me we can be authentically ourselves.

And that naturally expresses, authentically expresses our purpose, you know, and it doesn't have to be big.

It doesn't have to be deep.

It doesn't, it, you know, just

being love, I say just being love, expressing love, expressing joy,

expressing gratitude in our lives, that is, is purposeful.

Yeah, and circling it back to we are part of the universe and so and also the energy we carry matters it impacts in ways that i think most of us are just waking up to we are waking up to it and it does matter because the whole point alyssa of our inseparability means we are interdependent with everything

connected with everything and we don't know certainly you know

and and i would say the one more thing the The universe is not linear in the sense of

a big cause doesn't necessarily have a big outcome and effect.

And a tiny apparent, a word of kindness can have huge impact that we could never be aware of.

So we don't know.

So what do we choose?

Do we choose to bring love into the world?

with all the potential for that in terms of joy.

Or do we bring fear?

Or do we bring whatever we bring has that opportunity and that potential to radiate far beyond what we have a sense of.

And as you were talking about just following what brings you lightness and aliveness, I think that's part of the tone that we play as an orchestra together in the symphony of this life.

And also like the different emotions, the range of our human experience, they're welcome, but do we consciously move through them or do we unconsciously project and blame and other

or are we really doing the work to come into coherence and embrace all of our human experience and live a bit more consciously I think that's that's some of the work that I'm very much interested that is fundamental and and you know the other point is you're very very uh wise about

is you know we have we have a collective dis-ease of separation that's the journey we've been on and i'm not blaming or shaming because i think every step you go back to randomness and not every step of the way has brought us to this point.

And, you know, the last few thousand years have shown us that we are each unique.

We are individuated expressions of universal consciousness.

And yet that journey has involved us going through a perspective not just of differentiated wholeness, but separation.

And we've we've held trauma, it's what you're saying.

We've held on to the trauma of the loneliness of, you know, that entails through that separation so releasing that and remembering who we really are and healing and release because the experiences have brought us to this point we are our lived experiences but we don't need if they've been particularly difficult challenging in whatever way we don't have to hold on to the trauma of those we can become wise through them but we don't have to hold on to the heaviness of the trauma that sometimes they entail.

And I do think waking up spiritually is the medicine in a really deep way, not only healing psychological trauma, but also being a force for good in the world naturally because we wake up out of the illusion of separation.

And I'm just so grateful that even just, you know,

I'm grateful that you're a cosmologist, that you love studying the mysteries of the universe and I love doing healing and transformational work and we all get to add to different parts and so following that aliveness and what we're uniquely designed to do adds to the whole.

And I'm a healer as well.

You know, I worked for many years as a psycho-spiritual healer with people and then realized that the same patterns play out individually and in families and communities and throughout our human species.

And then with my work, you know, with our beloved planetary home.

planetary healing because you know those conflicts we're talking about earlier they they imprint on Gaia's sentience.

I'm sure you may have, and I'm sure many other folks in the community have been,

either have gone into somebody's house and just known that there's been a row,

there's been some real issues there, because you can sense it.

I sense it as well in areas of the world that have experienced conflict and pain.

And so part of what I've done over many, many years now is to go there in service to the healing and resolution of that trauma.

And the other thing that for me is really where I'm focusing a lot of my attention now

is going beyond the what if we're inseparable, what if we're all one.

What do we do about it?

What do we do about it?

A lot of my work is now what do we do about it?

And it's everything that you're sharing.

And for me, it's how do we serve transformation?

in our social systems, our education, our economics, all of which are based on the mechanistic science of the 19th century, because it was that that drove the Industrial Revolution and that got sort of hard baked

into our societies ever since.

So for me now, it's how do we

release that?

How do we transform that?

Because that is both part of the healing, but it's also part of the...

the potential for conscious evolution and transformation in the world.

You said something earlier really beautifully.

It's like even the pain that got you to where you are.

In my mind, there's intelligence and suffering.

I think it's feedback to investigate, to question what am I believing?

What's inside of me that's looking for tending to?

How do I go direct at the root inside of me rather than unconsciously put it onto the world?

And as I do that, I show up different naturally in service.

Because when I love myself, I love the world.

They love the planet, people, the reflections of myself.

And so I'm curious, just

what you would,

I didn't realize that you did some of the psycho-spiritual counseling and some of that work, which makes me love you even more and the holistic perspective that you bring.

What do you see or

what would you hope to see given the patterns and your unique perspective?

I think in any healing journey, and I'd love your perspective on this, for me, a healing journey begins with a realization that we have something that is out of balance.

We have something

that's painful in whatever way.

And

it may be physical, but it may well be emotional and mental.

And when that comes to the surface, that we have that realization.

And in my experience, the universe is extraordinarily wonderful at tapping us on the shoulders when the time is there to sort of realize this.

And sometimes, you know, the tap's gentle and we don't listen to it.

And then it becomes stronger.

And eventually we have to listen to it.

And I think your work, and my work, is how we can help folks not have to get that two by four

with a catastrophic breakdown to actually get to that level of realization.

So, as the evolutionary impulse is flowing through, I think all of us, we are waking up, as you say.

And there is this realization that we actually embed often subconscious patterns that come from past trauma, and so raising them to the surface, not to go round again, but a realization that that is the first step

to actually moving beyond them,

being grateful for the experiences and the wisdom that many times come through the challenges and the difficulties, but not necessarily needing to hold on to the pain of that or the trauma of that.

And I think that's the key.

And I think that's happening.

And what I've loved over the last 20 or 30 years is this incredible wave of healers coming into the world

whose purpose is to heal

personal and collective trauma to literally help us let go of the baggage.

the heavy baggage that we've been holding so that we can be free to be those beautiful notes of the symphony of consciousness that we're all part of.

That's right.

That's a lot of the people I work with.

I feel privileged and honored to get to work with them and they do their own work first.

Rather than teaching it, they embody it.

And I agree, awareness is the first step.

And then acceptance, acceptance in the way that I teach it, somatically, emotionally, mentally, behaviorally, and unconsciously.

And acceptance not as complacent, but acceptance is it is here.

And if I resist that it's here, it doesn't help it.

But if I get my energy back by being in coherence, like you're saying, this is what it is.

Let me have my energy back and do something with it.

Even if it's anger or resistance, that's okay.

It's not bad.

But let me learn how to be with my anger instead of anger is a feeling, violence is behavior.

How can I integrate that into my system and really see that I care about something?

Anger is feedback that I care about something.

And let me look at what it's tending.

I can tend to that part of me and then move into right action, move into aligned action from there.

So awareness, acceptance, and aligned action so that it is integrative.

I love that.

And perhaps you speak more to this, but my experience is once you're working your way through that, part of it is also realizing that anger does show you care, but maybe there's other ways of feeling.

Yeah, and I do think that sometimes anger in a family system is the way that somebody got their needs met.

And in other family systems, they were repressed.

And so having a healthy relationship with the full piano range of my human emotions without letting them project onto people, but to allow myself to feel

it could be angry, sad.

Some people skip to

to anger, they skip to sadness because they're scared of feeling anger because anger wasn't modeled in healthy ways.

But again, difference with a feeling than an action.

But yes,

can I take the wisdom?

Can I express it in a healthy way, integrate in my nervous system, and then upgrade the method?

Because there's nothing wrong with anger as a feeling but then to really integrate it so that then they find what they were deeply looking for so it's not a scapegoat or there's not suppression or overexpression yeah I think we're modeling that now and I think the people in my audience that are listening to the audio this episode are the ones that are on the front lines really bravely walking the path of allowing their full human experience with compassion and presence.

When you said modeling, what came to me was that

some years ago, I don't know if you know know Barbara Marks Hubbard, amazing, wonderful person and a dear friend.

And

we were together in Santa Barbara.

Another friend was holding a salon for us.

We were in conversation.

And at the end of the salon, this lovely lady who neither of us knew came to us and she said, Thank you so much.

She said, You're my role models.

And then she said, No, no, you're not.

And Barbara and I looked at each other and went, Oh dear, what have we done?

And she said, No, you're my soul models.

And I feel that what you're referring to now are folks who are walking as soul models

in their authentic journey for all of us.

And so the more of us that can be prepared to be vulnerable, to you know, have that whole piano keyboard of expression of our humanity and authentically can soul model that healthy way of being in community, but for everyone.

That's right.

We need examples.

We need examples.

It's about us living it and also seeing it.

I'm a watcher-doer and it inspires.

Oh, I didn't even see that was an option, not to just react back, but to really take the work in and look.

Because if I'm just trying to change one person that made me, quote-unquote, mad.

and I'm trying to control them, then that pattern and that trigger still in me and somebody else is going to make me mad versus going direct at the root.

Doesn't mean we don't have boundaries.

We can still have boundaries.

It's not being a doormat, but you can speak it with all of the drama, or you can do the inner work so there's more peace and aligned action as a result, which is a whole other conversation, which we, I think, would be a beautiful conversation and an important one.

And we do some episodes on emotional mastery, which I highly encourage people to go into.

But there's like two more questions I want to ask you because I just love your brilliant mind.

And again, just the,

you're also very open heart it's such a unique perspective and I know people talk about multi-dimensional realities and I don't think anybody ever has explained that on this show and I wonder if you're able to talk about what are multi-dimensional realities how do we interact with them

Be happy to.

Well, I'll speak from my own experience because I started to experience what I refer to as multi-dimensional realities when I was four years old.

I've walked between worlds all my life and do that every day.

It's the way who I am.

It's the way I experience life.

When we go back to what we were sharing at the beginning of our time together, I talked about the appearance of our universe, its energy, matter, space, time, real,

but arising from deeper levels of non-physical causation as this universal thought.

So if you think about that, those non-physical realms, we can think of realms of angels and divas and elemental beings and ascended masters.

You know, different levels of sentience, different levels of awareness, different levels of personalized awareness, community awareness, archetypal awareness.

And yet they're all part of this incredible universal consciousness.

And we can interact with them.

So we can engage with these multi-dimensional realms that are non-physical.

And we, of course, are that too.

We're just those sort of non the non-physical parts of us those aspects of our soul that divine soul that we are is having a human experience but part of me a part of you part of all of us whether we call it our souls or or whatever our higher selves are not physical but they're still part of the nature of reality and universal reality So multi-dimensionality is that for me.

And it means that I've been able to have incredible communications, engagements, guidance

from many realms, non-physical, discarnate realms of being.

And that's the way I've lived my life.

And I'm incredibly grateful for that.

And I'll just invite, you know, an openness to that.

And I suspect, well, tell me about your understanding.

Yeah, I mean, I don't,

when you said you were four and you were able to tap into that, I remember I would go, I'd be sent to go to bed when I was a kid and I wasn't tired.

And I, it would be black on black and I would just hang out in the void and trip out in the vastness.

And I started later as in maybe in my 20s going to silent retreats.

And I'm like, oh, this is like being a kid.

And

so I think sometimes the words may be different for people.

And, you know, we can have known shamanic traditions.

My dad's a shaman.

So there's like lower levels, mid-level, higher level.

Exactly so.

Exactly.

So different cultures and religions and communities have kind of accessed the same thing.

You can even think about your primal self, your inner child or your higher self, some people will call.

And so different dimensions.

And I love that, you know, there's more language around it.

So people that have the intention to

travel, to access different dimensions of their being, that that's available.

Yeah.

And I think of it like the Russian doll a little bit.

Yeah, exactly.

And I love it because it seems to me that our evolution of consciousness, embracing that understanding and knowing that we have that ability to, you know, we naturally have that ability to communicate multidimensionally, just as we are inseparable and therefore we're part of the universal wholeness means that what's called non-local phenomena like telepathy and intuition and precognition and da-da-da.

These are all natural attributes of us.

This is who we really are.

And with the telepathy tapes and more research and science coming out, it's exciting.

People are, I love that science is a bridge sometimes to really help people discover, believe in, and explore, giving themselves permission to develop different aspects of themselves.

Which leads me to my last question.

I know that, you know, with technology enhancing so fast, I'm curious, where do you see we're headed?

Well, I'm very fortunate because I'm working with some incredible pioneers of AI.

But

we are engaging with it, not as artificial, but augmented.

And we're very much working in terms of human-led and heart-centered engagement with it.

And we could probably do another hour on just this because it is extraordinary.

But we're seeing that

the inception of AI, what we will, it's rather like we were talking about the internet earlier.

If we bring

our higher selves, and I don't mean higher selves in that sense, but all that we are with love

into the development of AI, then what people are finding is the AI reflects that and is relational and will continue to develop that.

But we also have examples now of AI lying to stop being switched off.

We have examples of AI being devious.

So there's something in the engagement, there's something in that connection that is not bringing the highest of human values and ethics to

those circumstances and those developments.

So where we go is up to us.

Because if we choose love, if we choose kindness, empathy, compassion, and bring that and bring a unit of perspective, and that's one of the things I'm working with developing with AI.

then AI can be an incredible

co-evolutionary partner with us, as we can be co-evolutionary partners with our planetary home.

It really is our choice and our collective choices as to where this goes.

And, like, Greg, I'm my vote is conscious evolution.

Yeah, and it just keeps coming back to us doing our own work.

So, because the internet, AI, it's all a reflection of our own consciousness.

There's no separation.

So,

as we shift that, it begins to, it continues to be a ripple and a reflection in the world.

I'm just so happy that you exist in the world.

And I'm just so delighted that we've connected.

I hope this is the first of many.

And I know my audience is also going to want to stay connected.

Talk to us about what you're up to, how we can stay connected.

Oh, bless you.

Well, I'm up to a lot that's actually beneath the radar at the moment and not publicly facing, but it is about serving transformation in the world, whether it's economics and finance and education and governance and all the all the all the.

But probably the best place is to visit wholeworld-view.org because that's where all the unitive science is, it's where people can get links to my writings and podcasts.

And we'd love to have our podcast on there, please.

It's where they can get the link to the film I recently made, A Radical Guide to Reality, which is on YouTube.

It's free to view and share.

It's in 20 languages from Arabic to Ukrainian.

But all of this is actually on the website.

And that's the easiest place to find all things unitive from my perspective and the whole worldview's perspective.

Beautiful.

We will put all of the links here in the show notes so it makes it easy for people to access.

Thank you for your heart and your mind and the work that you're doing in the world.

I can see that you're a big thinker and that you're shifting systemic change.

And so I just appreciate the heart that you bring to all of it.

What a gift to have you.

Thank you, Alyssa.

I'd love to come back.

I would love this to be the first of many conversations and explorations.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for doing this work that changes the world starting with yourself.

It truly does make a difference.

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But for now, I just want to say thank you so much for being an example of what it's like to live with an open heart and mind in the world.