Learn to Lead with Dawn Staley

Speaker 1 I do watch sports, but I'm a little morbid. I like, okay, I like crime.
Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, I do. I like crime.
Like, if I could

Speaker 1 go in person to trials, like the like

Speaker 1 I went to a double murder trial in Columbia, South Carolina. Just for fun.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 Like, it's, it's different. Like, in

Speaker 1 TV does it no justice, y'all. It's like you want the real thing.
I want the real thing.

Speaker 1 this episode is brought to you by rivian and chase home lending

Speaker 1 how are you today my my brother i feel really good you know i i was i was had one of my colds

Speaker 1 recently but i feel great now that's i just needed a little sleep that's good too much running around following chasing around those those boys those little boys tournaments you know it's it's really fun being an AAU coach, though.

Speaker 1 You know, our guest today is, is

Speaker 1 a big-time coach. I'm excited to talk to her.
But, you know,

Speaker 1 before we bring Dawn out, let me just tell you,

Speaker 1 I want to,

Speaker 1 you know, you and I both were gifted Rivians. Yes.

Speaker 1 And let me tell you, so I've had mine for about, for a couple of months now. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it is now my primary car. Of course it is.
It is my primary car.

Speaker 1 You've got that blue that is like the Rivian Blue. It's a spectacular blue.
It is.

Speaker 1 It should have a different name. It is.
Does it draw a lot of attention? What's the blue called that you have? Rivian blue. The Rivian Blue.
It's called Rivian Blue.

Speaker 1 So do your neighbors like see you coming? Oh, everybody sees me coming.

Speaker 1 And, you know, we've now taken it on some further trips and the kids love it.

Speaker 1 You know, you can, they like to sit in the third row and put the second row down and sort of put their legs out. Yeah, when you go far places, but well, I'm excited.
I've tested it out.

Speaker 1 I have driven around the driveway,

Speaker 1 but I'm going to get out on the road this summer. And it drives so smooth, so easy.
I just, I really love the car. Yeah, yeah.
So I'm glad you're happy with yours.

Speaker 1 The family is settling in you as Rivian owners. We are.
Congratulations, my friend.

Speaker 1 So I am so excited about our guests. I am too.
I really am. First time I'm meeting coach.
Well, we were fortunate enough to get Coach Dawn Staley on Ways to Win. Yeah, yeah.
And she was fantastic.

Speaker 1 And she's done a lot for the coaching world.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 she's done seminars for our National Association of Basketball Coaches, which is the Men's Basketball Coaches Association. She's done stuff for the Women's Basketball Coaches Association.
She's

Speaker 1 the head coach of the University of South Carolina Gamecocks,

Speaker 1 a women's basketball team, a three-time Olympic gold medalist,

Speaker 1 and a Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame inductee. And her debut book, Uncommon Favor, is out now.

Speaker 1 Please welcome our good friend now, I guess we can call her, John Staley.

Speaker 1 And welcome, welcome to IMO.

Speaker 1 Good to see you again, Credit.

Speaker 1 Oh, wonderful to have you with us. Oh, my goodness.
Well, welcome to IMO. Thank you.
Oh, congratulations on the new book. It's been a whirlwind.
Yeah, I can only imagine.

Speaker 1 And let's tell listeners when it came out.

Speaker 1 Came out May the 20th. Yeah, yeah.
And when you write a book, You don't know how it's going to be received. Yeah.
You're just writing it out of love, out of

Speaker 1 probably

Speaker 1 not wanting to forget. So

Speaker 1 you got to put it down somewhere. And

Speaker 1 then just

Speaker 1 my mother. My mother was a big, big, big influence in my life.
And I just kind of wanted to pay tribute to her

Speaker 1 and the things that

Speaker 1 I say raised me, like basketball raised me. That's right.
North Philly raised me.

Speaker 1 And it's a tribute to

Speaker 1 those three things, but

Speaker 1 everybody that played a role in it? Yeah, and I can imagine that it's well received because it's a beautifully written book.

Speaker 1 I was saying that

Speaker 1 your upbringing, your relationship to your mother, your feeling about your community,

Speaker 1 Philly,

Speaker 1 the neighborhood you grew up, it's so reminiscent of

Speaker 1 how we grew up.

Speaker 1 You know, my memoir becoming,

Speaker 1 I understand that, wanting to pay tribute to the people who brought you where you are.

Speaker 1 Talk a bit more about your, what, what it was like growing up.

Speaker 1 I actually thought it was great. Like I never had a care in the world.
Like, like, I mean, my mother was a discipline

Speaker 1 mother. So, I mean, I did have a care in the world when it was going against what she wanted.
I did.

Speaker 1 But I felt like I had everything. Like, I had, I felt like I had

Speaker 1 a desire to compete. I felt like I had a discipline in the household.
I felt like I had friends who really, really understood and believed in friendship and camaraderie.

Speaker 1 I grew up in a neighborhood and like the projects, like you, you would never know. Like the block that I grew up on, you would never know it was low-income housing.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And everything to do with

Speaker 1 manicure lawns, like

Speaker 1 adults taking care of the neighborhood,

Speaker 1 friends you can really count on. Like

Speaker 1 you can have an argument with one of your friends, and then the next moment you're playing basketball, baseball, football with them. And it didn't matter.

Speaker 1 It didn't lead to anything besides strengthening your friendship and your trust.

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 I wouldn't trade it for it. anywhere else,

Speaker 1 like anywhere else in the community.

Speaker 1 And I love the way you full-throatedly embrace our communities because a lot of people out there have different views of what it means to grow up in a poor or working class minority area.

Speaker 1 They think it's all, is it sad? Is it hard? Is it dangerous? You know, but you paint the real picture of what life is like for kids like us growing up.

Speaker 1 These are families. These are people who work every day, right? How did your mother sort of help you find your way

Speaker 1 as the youngest, as a kid who was, you know, naturally shy? And, you know, you speak about her and her, she sounded a lot like you, that she was attuned, she was a listener.

Speaker 1 In order to raise y'all and while she was working, she had to be, you know,

Speaker 1 busy, but keeping an eye out.

Speaker 1 Talk to us about how she helped you become who you are. She helped me become who I am by not

Speaker 1 sparing a ride yeah

Speaker 1 and that helped shape me and I feared my mother yeah like it was you didn't want to you didn't want to break any rules you didn't want to you know get sent home with a note you didn't want to get suspended from school um

Speaker 1 so she shaped the discipline in me so how have you taken that from your upbringing and implemented on your current players who were brought up differently than you were.

Speaker 1 There's a lot of communication involved in it.

Speaker 1 And it's a lot of inclusivity.

Speaker 1 Young people talk to their parents a lot, like every day,

Speaker 1 which is. But they don't talk to each other.
No,

Speaker 1 but they talk to their parents. So I have to find a way to talk to the parents, like me.
I forge that relationship with the parents.

Speaker 1 So if they're talking to their kids every day, I want my message being said to the kid. Like it is, it is that way.
And then

Speaker 1 I condition our kids to get an understanding of how I like to operate. Just clearly, it's not like I don't have team rules.

Speaker 1 They're just

Speaker 1 character traits. Yeah.
They're not like rules. Like be on time.
That's a character trait. Oh my God.
Communicate. Can I say that again?

Speaker 1 That's a Robinson character trait. It is.
It is. Being on time.
It's not hard. So when they aren't doing those things, you just, you check them.
Hey, you were late today.

Speaker 1 Because it's, it's their careers. It's not my career.
I got a career. Like,

Speaker 1 this is what I do. And I try to tell young people that

Speaker 1 I've been coaching for 25 years and I have yet, like,

Speaker 1 they're the same old recycle problems. Yeah.
Yeah. Like, like, I want new problems.
I want to, I want to solve some new problems. And it's just, and

Speaker 1 they won't say anything until it's too late or or it could have been resolved in a five-minute conversation.

Speaker 1 So I welcome young people to say it, to use their voices, because I know what using your voice does.

Speaker 1 It prevents you from being taken advantage of.

Speaker 1 It allows you clarity of what you like and what you don't like. I try to get them where most 50-year-olds are.
Because 50-year, when I turn 50, life cleared up for me.

Speaker 1 Like it's clear. Like, if I don't like something, I'm going to let you know, hey, I don't like that.
Like, try to give them a jump start on it. Yes.

Speaker 1 Understand

Speaker 1 they can start building this muscle earlier than we did because I feel the same way. You know, life got a lot better.
Peaceful. It's peaceful there.
It really is. Peace.
You're protecting your peace.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 I'm listening to you talk, Don, and I'm picturing little Don

Speaker 1 on the basketball courts playing with all these boys, right? And, you know, I mean, it is rare for somebody to, and it's a blessing

Speaker 1 to

Speaker 1 find out early in life what you love and then be able to do it for the rest of your life and make a career out of it. It is a blessing.

Speaker 1 I would love to hear more about that. Well, well, I would say this.
When I was growing up,

Speaker 1 for me, it was genderless. I was just playing.

Speaker 1 I didn't know I was a girl until they told me,

Speaker 1 go put a skirt on and go.

Speaker 1 I didn't realize that that's what it was.

Speaker 1 But I didn't care. Like, they didn't know who my mother was.
My mother's got the strength of 10 men and thick skin. So the name-calling really didn't bother me after a while.
At first, it didn't.

Speaker 1 I was like, I'm one of five. I'm the youngest of five.

Speaker 1 Say something that made me cry.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 And then you gain the respect of the guys and then it it the relationship goes to

Speaker 1 you're one of us

Speaker 1 well now with uh title iX and you know girls young girls uh because I was a tomboy you know growing up as younger with a brother I did same thing I was doing everything they were doing they were boxing I was boxing we're playing piggy softball I was out there I was running track I was gonna beat all all of them.

Speaker 1 But I'm

Speaker 1 almost 10 years older than you. And the opportunities, just like for you, were even, it wasn't there for a girl who was a jock to

Speaker 1 be in organized sports. I spent a lot of time on the sidelines watching him play in leagues and going to his games because I didn't see girls doing any of that.

Speaker 1 And now that there are more opportunities for girls, I guess my question is, do you see the difference in

Speaker 1 female athletes who grew up in all girls' sports?

Speaker 1 I mean, they've had it, they've been exposed to it, but because they had the opportunities, they didn't get the chance to, you know, play with the boys.

Speaker 1 Do you see differences now?

Speaker 1 I do. I just see

Speaker 1 there's more opportunity for girls. Like,

Speaker 1 if I look at my team,

Speaker 1 probably over just

Speaker 1 my entire career coaching, right?

Speaker 1 They've only known it to be a WNBA. Yep.
Only known.

Speaker 1 They were born. Right.

Speaker 1 So that's the carrot that's been dangled in front of them for all of their lives. So they play now, they participate, they play AAU.
They see a future.

Speaker 1 They see a future in it, like in a future here in the States. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I'm always curious, and I've met a

Speaker 1 number of wonderful WNBA college female athletes in basketball.

Speaker 1 And I don't think people really understand

Speaker 1 how

Speaker 1 the path is so different. You know, the fact that, you know, pay is so unequal, that...

Speaker 1 the life of a professional,

Speaker 1 a WNBA player is so different. Can you tell us and tell our listeners a little bit about what it was like for you as a professional player?

Speaker 1 You know, because you could, you know, how did you make ends meet? You know, was that life difficult?

Speaker 1 It was. I would say this.
When I graduated from college,

Speaker 1 graduated from UVA in 1992,

Speaker 1 my male counterpart was Shaquille O'Neal.

Speaker 1 Right? Yeah. Shaquille.
Yeah, we know that dude. Yeah, $80 million contract.

Speaker 1 Me,

Speaker 1 I'm sitting at home. And that mother that cleaned houses cleaned a house for a man that owned a retail store.
So I had to ask my mother,

Speaker 1 I'm a college graduate

Speaker 1 to

Speaker 1 use her plug, right?

Speaker 1 To get me a job at his store. And I did retail for about three weeks.
And then I was like, this isn't for me. This isn't for me.
Like,

Speaker 1 once I got that check, that check was like $227. And I'm like,

Speaker 1 for all that. All of that.
For three weeks, right?

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I was waiting to go overseas to play

Speaker 1 because

Speaker 1 at my height as a guard,

Speaker 1 they don't want guards. They want bigs.

Speaker 1 So I went over to Segovia, Spain in October of 1992, played for for $35,000, which was decent for me. I didn't have a job.
It was more than the retail store.

Speaker 1 Way more. So I did that.

Speaker 1 And then 1990, I was playing

Speaker 1 for

Speaker 1 being an Olympian because one of my lifelong dreams was to be an Olympian because I only saw women play on television two times, national championship. and gold medal.
Yeah. And that's what I wanted.

Speaker 1 So I had to go overseas to play

Speaker 1 to get more international experience so I can be ready the next time I tried for an Olympic Games, which was 94.

Speaker 1 Ended up making a 96 team. And then from our year of

Speaker 1 practicing together and preparation for the 96 Games,

Speaker 1 we knew halfway through that there was going to be a WNBA.

Speaker 1 So we were like the guinea pigs to see if women's basketball could stand the test of time during that year.

Speaker 1 And then not only did the WNBA was birthed, so was another league, the ABL.

Speaker 1 So two women's professional leagues started

Speaker 1 in 96 and 97.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 from 92 to 97,

Speaker 1 it was a struggle. Once I started in the WNBA,

Speaker 1 I was coaching at Temple University at the same time.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I could make ends meet because I had a second job. The WNBA job was my second job.
But you had to have two jobs.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's not enough for you to

Speaker 1 just take the paycheck and live year-round. 12 months, yeah.
So you had to have supplemental income.

Speaker 1 In this segment, brought to you by Chase Home Lending, we're talking about something that that hits close to home, literally, moving, relocating, finding a place to settle, and how those journeys shape who we are.

Speaker 1 You know, Mish, you know, we've moved around a whole lot in our days from coaching. And

Speaker 1 what I remember that made home home was it didn't matter where we were as long as we were together. You know, we had to stay in hotels.
We had to stay on people's couches.

Speaker 1 We had to stay all over the place until we found a place to live. But it didn't matter as long as we were together.
Yeah, I totally agree.

Speaker 1 You know, our biggest move in our little Obama family was our move from the south side of Chicago to the White House.

Speaker 1 Never thought we'd feel settled in that place. But what we realized is that as long as we had each other, we were home.

Speaker 1 Thanks to Chase Home Lending for sponsoring this segment.

Speaker 1 Having the right support when finding a home is so important, and Chase Home Lending helps people at every stage of the home ownership journey.

Speaker 1 From first-time buyers to those relocating for new opportunities, they are committed to helping people in all communities gain confidence in the home buying process.

Speaker 1 Because owning a home isn't just about having a place to live, it's about building a brighter future for you and your family. Ready to take that first step? Learn more at chase.com/slash start,

Speaker 1 member FDIC equal housing opportunity.

Speaker 1 So, are they going to compensate players for that loss of income? Is our salaries keeping up with this new requirement?

Speaker 1 Well, I think the salaries now, and I don't, it's probably anywhere from $75,000 to maybe $250,000, $250,000

Speaker 1 compared to an NBA player. Oh, there's no comparison.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I just want the number.

Speaker 1 I want to say the numbers out loud so that we, you know,

Speaker 1 because the average NBA player is making

Speaker 1 millions if they don't even get playing time, right? Yes. And I will say this, in comparison to where the, like if we looked at the NBA in its 28th or 29th year,

Speaker 1 I think we're okay. Like, I think we're okay.
How do we get it? It's on par. Yes, it's on par to where, okay.
But we want to see the near future of

Speaker 1 WNBA players being able to get a Super Max contract. Like a, you know what I'm saying? I know exactly what you're saying.
And it makes me think.

Speaker 1 So, you know, like the NBA has been around for years and now the WNBA has been around for years. Not as many, but it's been around for years.

Speaker 1 What's made it so so popular now?

Speaker 1 Well, I think it's been popular. I think

Speaker 1 you have

Speaker 1 players like Caitlin Clark.

Speaker 1 She brings a lot of eyeballs to our sport, a lot of them. And

Speaker 1 so much so that now you're seeing the rest of the league and how good and talented. our women are that represent the WNBA.

Speaker 1 Like I we played Caitlin Clark's Iowa team on national television in 2024, the highest ever. I think

Speaker 1 it tapped out at 24 million, most watched game ever, right? And I know a lot of people were tuned in to see Caitlin, but what they saw was a South Carolina team that was super talented,

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 1 was on an undefeated run.

Speaker 1 And I know they walked into something that didn't really know what was about to happen.

Speaker 1 So I think it's cool that the new eyes, eyeballs are coming to our sport and they're seeing how very talented like our players are.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 is it

Speaker 1 somewhat controversy? Yeah. But what sport is it?

Speaker 1 I like the fact that we do have some controversy.

Speaker 1 It's a sport. I've always said that I watch sports not just for the reality of it, but I watch sports to root against the people who I don't like.
And if there's no drama, there's no fun.

Speaker 1 And I love the fact that the WNBA has some drama now. And I think I've always said that it needed more drama.
But

Speaker 1 I was getting to the fact that it feels like to me, college basketball has made the WNBA more popular.

Speaker 1 Now, with this new house settlement having come through, this is some very recent stuff. So I want to get your...

Speaker 1 Just quickly, just explain for those who may not know

Speaker 1 what NIL is. Just quickly.

Speaker 1 For those who don't understand, name, imagine, likeness was the only way student athletes could get paid.

Speaker 1 And now with this new house settlement as a result of some lawsuits, it is passed now that schools can actually pay a portion of the revenues they earn to the student athletes. Yes.
Well,

Speaker 1 first it'll be

Speaker 1 the NCAA got sued for for over $2 billion.

Speaker 1 So for the next 10 years, the athletes that opt into this, and you don't have to opt in, but if you opt in, you can get

Speaker 1 some of the money. Settlement money.
The settlement money, which is probably

Speaker 1 $20 million per school.

Speaker 1 But that doesn't, you know.

Speaker 1 That's football. Yeah.
And that's men's basketball.

Speaker 1 And maybe sprinkling a little women's basketball and other Olympic sports. How is it changed recruitment? I mean, I mean, it's,

Speaker 1 that's the difficult part because, you know, the market,

Speaker 1 the market says that

Speaker 1 if you're a non-contributor and you go into the portal.

Speaker 1 And what, so what does it mean to be a non-contributor? Like, you don't play. Okay.
No playing time.

Speaker 1 You're leaving the school because you're not playing. You average two points, one rebound, right?

Speaker 1 They can go ask

Speaker 1 a school like us for $100,000.

Speaker 1 Wait, how? What? Yeah. Yes, easily.

Speaker 1 And it won't blink. It won't blink.

Speaker 1 Now, if I entertain that, they're going to take it to another school. Hey, South Carolina's offered me $100,000.
You got $150,000.

Speaker 1 And it's just that.

Speaker 1 It's just that. So,

Speaker 1 for us at South Carolina,

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 we got a certain amount of money that we have to work with. And I don't overpromise.
I stay within the budget, the revenue share budget that we have. And I do some innovative things as well

Speaker 1 to help our players out in this space. Like we play games for money, and that money goes directly to our players.

Speaker 1 Things like that. Now,

Speaker 1 we have to go away from our home. We got to give up home games and play a lot of games on neutral sites in order for us to do that.

Speaker 1 But to stay in this space and to be competitive, you have to do some out-the-box things. Now,

Speaker 1 understand,

Speaker 1 we lead the nation in attendance for the past 10 years. So, to give up a home game might mean you're giving up some wins that you would have had at home.
Some wins and some revenue. Yes, and revenue.

Speaker 1 Yes. Yeah.
Yes. Yes.

Speaker 1 But revenue

Speaker 1 for

Speaker 1 actually is not really, we probably lose a bit, we probably lose money hosting. Home games?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, the concession people make out, you know, but to put the, turn the lights on.

Speaker 1 How are the fans receiving it? The Gamecock fans, are they feeling about this, the NIL switch and the players' attitudes? Is there any pushback?

Speaker 1 Are fans supportive? Supportive athletes getting paid?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm supportive. Yeah, I really am.

Speaker 1 I think it's long overdue. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I do think it's out of control as well.

Speaker 1 So we got to find a way to balance, to keep it amateur, an amateur sport while allowing young people to go out there and benefit from their name image and likes. Because

Speaker 1 five years ago, it was all the NC2A benefiting from. Yeah.
And it didn't trickle down to the players. And now it's, it's, it's a waterfall down to the players.
Yeah. Has it affected the locker room?

Speaker 1 No, not knock on wood. I hope it doesn't.
I think I'm clear. Like I, I, again, I'm clear.

Speaker 1 I think I do all my talking to the agents.

Speaker 1 And this is, this is what it is. And I tell our players too, like, like,

Speaker 1 I do make them sign NDAs. about what they get.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I do. Now, whether they can stick with that or not, some of them get disgruntled and maybe transfer and just say what I was making.
And then it could stir up the pot, but I'm very honest.

Speaker 1 And I'll tell them there's a reason why you get paid this and you get paid that, right? And I'll explain that to them.

Speaker 1 But the players don't need to be in the business of knowing what each other makes.

Speaker 1 But, but they'll find out. I mean,

Speaker 1 once you find out, they'll find out. Some of them are represented by the same agent as well.
That's helpful too. And that way

Speaker 1 they can help explain it because I'll give my message to the agent. And the agent usually does a really good job because

Speaker 1 they have the same issue. Like

Speaker 1 if they get player X a deal for this amount, player B, who's their client, they get them for this amount

Speaker 1 and they find out they have the same issue. So they know how to handle that dynamic.
Yeah. But Don, we typically

Speaker 1 have a question from a listener that we want to answer. But before we get to that question, I have one more thing that you probably don't know this:

Speaker 1 that Misha and I's

Speaker 1 relatives are from South Carolina. Yeah,

Speaker 1 Georgetown,

Speaker 1 Holly's Island. Yes, our father's side of the family.
Our father's side of the family. Our grandfather was born and raised.
Yeah. And knowing that your mom was from South Carolina.

Speaker 1 And dad, yeah, and dad. I mean, you know, I mean, we might be related.
Hello. I think.
I think perhaps. But I we got the hype, though.
Okay.

Speaker 1 You do. You do.

Speaker 1 Excuse me. That was good.
That was good, Anisha.

Speaker 1 You made me lose my train of thought. But no, given the fact that they were from South Carolina, immigrated to Philly, and now you're back in South Carolina, talk about the

Speaker 1 feelings you have being a successful coach

Speaker 1 in the state

Speaker 1 where your folks were from

Speaker 1 and your folks during a time when it wasn't cool to be down in that state if you were us.

Speaker 1 It wasn't.

Speaker 1 And I think in the book, I mentioned that

Speaker 1 about my mother and why she left South Carolina.

Speaker 1 It was because the butcher, she gave the butcher was giving my mother some food that looked spoiled and he wanted her to have that. And my mother wasn't taking that home.

Speaker 1 I mean, my mother had that in her

Speaker 1 at a very young age. And he said some things to her that, which meant you got, you got to get out of town.
Yeah. So my mother got out of town.

Speaker 1 And then, you know, my mother was in Philly for over 50 years.

Speaker 1 And then I left to take the South Carolina job.

Speaker 1 And I'm like,

Speaker 1 you coming with me? And she was like, no, I'm not going back down there.

Speaker 1 But all of her siblings, like our mother had like 16 siblings. So most of her siblings were still in South Carolina.
Eventually she said yes.

Speaker 1 But now to be in South Carolina, where, you know, I mean, South Carolina does not have a, they have a

Speaker 1 traditionally rich

Speaker 1 racist history, right? Right. And you feel that.
Like when I first got there, coaches would recruit to that.

Speaker 1 Like, like I really had something to do with that. I got to say.

Speaker 1 But now

Speaker 1 where I sit, you know, as a black woman that makes a lot of money in that state, and some people agree with it, and some people, they don't agree with it.

Speaker 1 I've

Speaker 1 ingrained myself into the community. Like, the community and I are one.

Speaker 1 And I do think I say some things that maybe some of them don't like, but I do think the people in South Carolina, they judge me off of, you know, my, my,

Speaker 1 my life,

Speaker 1 not my resume. It's what I've been to the community.
Right. Because it's easy to fall in love with the success and you get blinded by the success, but it's more of

Speaker 1 what I've given to the community and what the community is given back to me. And to be

Speaker 1 to be in that community, to have a statue, right? To have a street named after me, it means

Speaker 1 a great deal because I meet some black people that said they couldn't, they couldn't walk on the campus

Speaker 1 yeah and they wouldn't yeah

Speaker 1 until I got there and they come to the games and it's a myriad of people who

Speaker 1 I mean it looks

Speaker 1 like it I mean if you look at the people that come to our games it's a variety of people of all ethnic backgrounds just

Speaker 1 in unison, on one accord, that believe in one thing. It's the best of this country.
Exactly.

Speaker 1 And I feel good about that. I know my purpose.

Speaker 1 I understand my purpose, right? And my,

Speaker 1 it happened with my passion first, and then my purpose came after the passion. And then now the two are

Speaker 1 intertwining to create something that

Speaker 1 it's a model for

Speaker 1 other

Speaker 1 other states like South Carolina to just kind of get behind and understand.

Speaker 1 it's it's it's bigger than the basketball is actually bigger than the racism. It's bigger than the history.
It's it's become something that um I truly like

Speaker 1 love about South Carolina that we can we can be as one. And it's a reminder of what is possible, you know.
I mean, who we are really as people, you know, if we break through a lot of that history,

Speaker 1 you know, you you are living through the fact that communities do want to be unified.

Speaker 1 It feels better not to have a segregated campus, to have, to be in the gym together, all rooting for the same thing.

Speaker 1 And what you and your team and your games remind not just folks in South Carolina, but the country of is it's the it's what's possible.

Speaker 1 And so I applaud your

Speaker 1 tenacity and also your courage, right?

Speaker 1 Because it takes some courage to, you know, I mean, you weren't always the statue name street, you know, you came there as an unknown and you had to build that from the ground up.

Speaker 1 And I got to say that you could have gotten jobs anywhere. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You could have gotten jobs anywhere. You took the South Carolina job.
I did.

Speaker 1 I took the

Speaker 1 South Carolina job, really not knowing. Well,

Speaker 1 I did know, meaning I used to visit family trips,

Speaker 1 not in colombia more so in the country like in the deep country yeah we we

Speaker 1 know the deep country down there when you described it in your book

Speaker 1 yep that was summer that was summer going down there getting eaten by mosquitoes and all that meeting the cousins yeah

Speaker 1 By now, viewers of this show know that I used to be a hotel guy. And I mean, I collected the points, the whole gamut.
But now I'm an Airbnb guy.

Speaker 1 One of the biggest reasons I'm an Airbnb guy is because I have four kids now.

Speaker 1 Two of them have partners. So we're talking at least three rooms if we go to a hotel.

Speaker 1 I can get a four-room Airbnb and everybody can fit in the same place. We've got a family room we can get together in.
We have a kitchen.

Speaker 1 You know, one of the best parts about it is we do a lot of laundry, and it's great because you get to do, you have a laundry room in these places.

Speaker 1 And what we've taken to now is ordering a place that has a pool. So if we are stuck at home, we have something to do.
So when the Robinsons are hitting the road, especially with all of us,

Speaker 1 we're staying at an Airbnb. We've done it in Chicago.
We've done it in Martha's Vineyard. We have done it in Washington, D.C.

Speaker 1 We are

Speaker 1 done with hotels. We are Airbnb folks.
This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Financial security isn't just about the here and now.
It's about the future.

Speaker 1 That's why we love what Progressive is doing to help people attain, maintain, and build wealth through home ownership.

Speaker 1 For over 80 years, Progressive has led with the belief that insurance should do more than just protect. It should propel people forward.

Speaker 1 Their commitment to not only helping more first-generation homeowners stay protected, but also support communities through Progressive's down payment assistance program, the up payment program, which will help drive real impact, making the dream of home ownership more attainable for everyone.

Speaker 1 You know, my wife Kelly and I are currently in the process of redoing our bathroom. We just started out and haven't done the demolition yet, but we know that this will add to the value of our house.

Speaker 1 So thank you, Progressive, for helping families plan ahead and for sponsoring our show. Visit progressive.com slash open the house to learn more.

Speaker 1 This episode of IMO is brought to you by Cologuard, a non-invasive colon cancer screening test.

Speaker 1 As it stands, colon cancer is on the rise in people under 50, which is why the American Cancer Society recommends that if you're at average risk, you begin screening at 45.

Speaker 1 Even if you live a healthy lifestyle and don't have symptoms, no one is at low risk for colon cancer.

Speaker 1 We want to make sure our listeners know that colon cancer can be treatable in nine out of 10 people.

Speaker 1 But the key here is that it has to be caught early.

Speaker 1 With the Cologuard test, you can take control of your colon cancer screening through a prescription-based test with none of the prep that's required of a colonoscopy.

Speaker 1 Not only is the Cologuard test effective for colon cancer screening, but it can even detect pre-cancer. And in addition to its convenience, the Cologuard test is also affordable.

Speaker 1 Most insured patients find they pay nothing out of pocket with zero downtime, no special preparation, and a screening test that's delivered right to your door. Don't let your health take a back seat.

Speaker 1 So, if you're 45 or older and at average risk, ask your health care provider about screening for colon cancer with the Cologuard test.

Speaker 1 You can also request a Cologuard prescription today at cologuard.com/slash podcast. The Cologuard test is intended to screen adults 45 and older at average risk for colorectal cancer.

Speaker 1 Do not use a Cologuard test if you have adenomas, have inflammatory bowel disease and certain hereditary syndromes, or a personal or family history of colorectal cancer.

Speaker 1 The Cologuard test is not a replacement for colonoscopy in high-risk patients. Cologuard test performance in adults ages 45 to 49 is estimated based on a large clinical study of patients 50 and older.

Speaker 1 False positives and false negatives can occur. Cologuard Guard is available by prescription only.

Speaker 1 Which is a good way to enter into the question from our listeners.

Speaker 1 We have been so, you talk about being blessed. Our listeners give us some really good questions.
And this question is from Crystal from Dallas.

Speaker 2 Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is Crystal, and I love your show.

Speaker 2 My My question is about and for black people, especially black women who are navigating leadership roles in business, community, or family.

Speaker 2 What advice would you give for staying grounded and leading with purpose, especially when facing self-doubt or dealing with external pressures?

Speaker 2 I'm currently in the process of launching my own coaching and consulting business after being laid off for the first time from my corporate job.

Speaker 2 And I want to ensure I'm showing up authentically and confidently as an expert for my clients. So any insights you have would mean so much.

Speaker 1 Thank you. Okay.

Speaker 1 So the first thing I want to pull from that question is, you know, she lost her job. That's, that's a big,

Speaker 1 I mean, you know, I've been fired and it's a big hit to your ego. And what are some things, Dawn, that you could give her to sort of pull herself out of

Speaker 1 that and sort of head back in the right direction i i would say sometimes um

Speaker 1 whether you get fired or laid off or you leave right i i believe sometimes there's a blessing

Speaker 1 beyond that

Speaker 1 and and it it helps you figure out what your worth is like what you're worth it makes you sit with yourself

Speaker 1 and when you sit with yourself you You everybody has doubts. Every single person has doubts, right? Especially when you lose your job.

Speaker 1 And once, you know, once you get past that, because when you're dealing with any kind of problem,

Speaker 1 there's an emotional part to it and there's a factual part to it, right? So once we've dealt with the emotions, the facts still sit right there with you, right?

Speaker 1 And the fact is, you built some great habits. Like you built some great life habits.
You built some habits as a leader. You built some habits of being disciplined.

Speaker 1 You built some networking and friendship habits with people who you can call on to help you. You got some mentors, you got some sponsors in your life.

Speaker 1 It allows you to revert back to those habits. And a lot of times, once we get past the emotional part of it and we lock into the facts, and those are the facts,

Speaker 1 you're worth more than that. Understand, unveil your worth.
And sometimes you got to utilize people to see that. And sometimes you got to utilize

Speaker 1 your habits that got you to that place. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I hear, Crystal, you know, I hear the remnants of,

Speaker 1 you know, imposter syndrome in the question too,

Speaker 1 which I think

Speaker 1 we as women, particularly women of color,

Speaker 1 you know, deal with because a lot of times you grow up with more what you can't do than what you can do.

Speaker 1 And I think, Dawn, you and I were blessed with having parents who saw what we could do.

Speaker 1 And at least that voice was a founding part of our growth. So with Crystal, I would

Speaker 1 remind her, it's sort of like understanding the facts, is that the facts are that

Speaker 1 she has to go into this endeavor understanding that she is capable and deserving.

Speaker 1 of the blessings that are coming, you know,

Speaker 1 and that there are people with less talent, with less skill, less ability

Speaker 1 who expect and achieve more just because their bar is higher for themselves.

Speaker 1 So I, you know, it's that it's the mental part of starting something new. It's the, there's a mental part to leadership.

Speaker 1 You got to feel, you got to stand in your strength. you know, and own it.
And you can't start a new thing if you're questioning whether you deserve it.

Speaker 1 And so breaking that habit, you know, especially at a point where maybe she's feeling a little down, maybe she's feeling unsure of herself, it's like there is a mental component to success and leadership is that you got to believe your hype,

Speaker 1 you know, and it ties into understanding the facts of your skills and owning that. Yeah.
Now you both are

Speaker 1 wonderful leaders and you've developed into leaders. Are there any leadership skills that you can share with Crystal

Speaker 1 that you've developed along the way that could possibly help her as she moves into this new endeavor?

Speaker 1 Dawn, I heard you throw out a bunch of them just in this conversation. And you know, in just the first few chapters of Uncommon Favor, you've thrown, you know,

Speaker 1 so.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, I think

Speaker 1 one is

Speaker 1 Crystal has to find out who she is. And she knows.

Speaker 1 She knows she has to direct it back to who she is.

Speaker 1 Because, you know, obviously she had a job, right?

Speaker 1 With a skill set.

Speaker 1 And I don't know how long she had that job, but I'm sure the fact that she got the job, her skill set spoke to that, right? And things change for one reason or another.

Speaker 1 Um, again, the blessing part of it: um, just stay to who she is, like, like, let that guide her. Like, Crystal, let it guide you, let it guide you.
You can't go wrong when it's you,

Speaker 1 you can't go wrong when you think you're doing it because somebody wants it done that way.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 your way is your way.

Speaker 1 If, if that's the wrong way, fall on the sword, knowing it was the way that you wanted it to go.

Speaker 1 A lot of times, though, your way won't let you down. So be authentic.

Speaker 1 Be authentic. Oh, please be authentic.

Speaker 1 And that brings me back to something else you talk about. See, my sister's always telling me that the...
men can't look inward as well as women can. So I'm working on myself every day.

Speaker 1 Look inside,

Speaker 1 my brothers.

Speaker 1 And I'm thinking about

Speaker 1 the times that I can admit where I've had self-doubt.

Speaker 1 And it happens even in coaching because you're responsible for the 15 players you have, but you can't control them.

Speaker 1 And when it doesn't work out, the first thing we do as coaches is, what have we done wrong?

Speaker 1 And if it,

Speaker 1 and, and I just want Crystal to understand that having a good team around you combats the self-doubt. Because if you have the right team around you, your assistant coaches, your parents,

Speaker 1 the captain of your team sometimes comes back and says, hey, coach,

Speaker 1 I don't think we should run point screen away. I think we should run Chin.
And, you know, I don't think you're on the right team.

Speaker 1 I knew Dawn. I'm right there.
We should. I knew Dawn with them.
I'm right there. I did that on purpose.

Speaker 1 But I'll say this. In my 20, I just finished my 25th year of coaching yeah

Speaker 1 the best decisions that i've made

Speaker 1 was to hire somebody somebody's

Speaker 1 that are much smarter than i am like seriously much smarter than my than i am more experienced than i am as a coach um

Speaker 1 because it is it is i don't know everything But I want somebody in the room to know about it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 To know.

Speaker 1 We have to cover ourselves. So

Speaker 1 I was,

Speaker 1 when I was the Olympic coach, head coach, we lost our first two games, exhibition games, one to Australia and the other one was to the WNBA All-Stars.

Speaker 1 I'm the black coach, first time black coach, right?

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I experienced something I've never experienced in my life.

Speaker 1 Like I was paralyzed. Like, whoop, I can't do this.
And you feel the pressure because you got to perform. You can't be the one

Speaker 1 that dethrones, you know, the success that USA has had, right? So I lost sleep. I'm like, but also in the same breath, I just kind of exhaled and said, I have to do it my way.

Speaker 1 Like, I can't try to play all the players, even though this is the first time that the entire team was together. I tried to figure out who we had, what the substitution patterns are.

Speaker 1 And it's a lonely place because the assistant coaches are trying to help and suggest and all of that. But the onus is on me.

Speaker 1 When it's all said and done, it's going to be me that failed or got the job done. So I just exhaled and I'm saying, I'm going to do it my way.

Speaker 1 Like, if Asia Wilson is the player that I'm most comfortable with, well, I'm going to put her in the starting lineup and we're just going to, we're going to pivot and go from there.

Speaker 1 And then, and that, that was just kind of my

Speaker 1 safe house.

Speaker 1 And everything around that,

Speaker 1 I just said, okay,

Speaker 1 this is a decision I'm going to make. But in making that decision, I actually talked to the players that I was taking out of the starting lineup to

Speaker 1 put Asia in the starting lineup.

Speaker 1 She met, she probably didn't like the conversation, but I was truthful and honest because ultimately I just wanted her to be okay or be in a position where she can help us win a gold medal.

Speaker 1 And then the second thing I did was

Speaker 1 some of the players that younger players, it was their first time being an Olympian. I actually told, went to them individually and I said, hey,

Speaker 1 you may not play a whole lot at this Olympic Games. I said, but I hope you use this opportunity to learn.
And if you ever want to be

Speaker 1 have this experience again of being a two-time Olympian or three-time Olympian, then you have to learn this part of it. Don't let this be an opportunity that

Speaker 1 you're mad and you're in your emotions.

Speaker 1 You got to learn. So I set them up to know that

Speaker 1 they may play or may not play, but I wanted them to be okay with it because I didn't want them to be the ones that will pull in somebody else that wasn't playing and say, you know, because in teams to start that little

Speaker 1 thing. Yes.
So

Speaker 1 just be clear, be

Speaker 1 unafraid, Crystal, to surround yourself with people,

Speaker 1 you know, are smarter than you, that know a little bit more in different areas. And you just be the conductor and you're just

Speaker 1 directing them as to what you need.

Speaker 1 Well, and Dawn, as you talked about communicating to the team members that weren't playing and realizing that that was as important as communicating to the starters,

Speaker 1 that makes me think of another piece of advice, which is, you know,

Speaker 1 as a business leader, as a leader, how you treat people, you know, how you treat your team, your client base, how you show up,

Speaker 1 with truth, compassion, empathy,

Speaker 1 honesty, all of that absolutely matters.

Speaker 1 You are the leader, so you are modeling the

Speaker 1 mentality

Speaker 1 of the team, the project, the endeavor. You set that tone.

Speaker 1 So Crystal, that means that you have to understand that, you know, as the leader, you can't show up, you know, half baked, you know, when you're the team member, you can, you can be a little raggedy sometimes.

Speaker 1 You can have a down day. You can come in slow, right?

Speaker 1 But when you're the leader, you know, every day you kind of got to be on your toes. And that's the, that,

Speaker 1 you know, that's what makes leaders great. That's what sets them apart.
But it is a burden.

Speaker 1 And especially in business, you know, she is setting the tone for the direction and the

Speaker 1 way her company is going to to move. So, Crystal,

Speaker 1 this has been great, really. This has been great.
So,

Speaker 1 some takeaways from Crystal for Crystal. Because, because my brother is the good,

Speaker 1 he's the good summation expert of it all. Because we just talk and it's like, oh, yeah, what did we say to Crystal? I'm still coaching.
I'm still coaching.

Speaker 1 I'm still coaching, even though I'm sitting here. I'm still coaching.

Speaker 1 But so, the first thing that

Speaker 1 Coach Daley talked about Crystal was habits.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I don't remember the number of the chapter, but Respect the Habits was my favorite chapter.

Speaker 1 That's a chapter in

Speaker 1 Uncommon Favor, and that's Don Staley's book. So develop habits and stick to them.

Speaker 1 My sister chimed in with

Speaker 1 Know that you're capable. You both talked about this.
Know that you're capable and deserving.

Speaker 1 so that builds up your confidence be authentic that's another one

Speaker 1 one of my favorites surround yourself with great people

Speaker 1 and even some who might be better than you are because we all need to be coached

Speaker 1 We all need to be coached. Forever and ever.
And Don came back with, you've got to communicate as a leader. And this goes in to what Mish summed it up with:

Speaker 1 you can't be raggedy.

Speaker 1 You can't be raggedy. You're the leader.
Absolutely. You're the leader.
You can't be raggedy.

Speaker 1 And I mean, and this is for Crystal, but this is for everybody out there listening. These are leadership qualities and traits that everybody can take something away from.

Speaker 1 And that

Speaker 1 can be powerful.

Speaker 1 Be powerful. Crystal said straight.
Yeah, she's set straight.

Speaker 1 This back to school season, spend less on your kids with Amazon.

Speaker 1 I remember when my wife Kelly and I would be running around to a million different stores, chasing down spiral notebooks, lunch boxes, and that one specific calculator that somehow every math teacher requires.

Speaker 1 And look, I love my kids, but I do not love fighting over the last pack of highlighters in a crowded store at 7 p.m. on a Tuesday.
That's why I love Amazon. Amazon has everything for back to school.

Speaker 1 Backpacks, pencils, clothes, snacks, and even those dry erase markers the teachers secretly hoard. All delivered fast, right to my doorstep.
One click, no stress, boom.

Speaker 1 And the best part, I can shop from my couch. With my now 15 year old and 13 year old, I grab their school supply list and I'm all set.

Speaker 1 Now, instead of running around town stressed out, I get to actually spend the last days of summer with my kids.

Speaker 1 We're doing movie nights, bike rides, and even dare I say, back to school fashion shows in the living room. Parents, do yourself a favor.
Go to Amazon.

Speaker 1 Get your back to school checklist done in like five minutes while saving a few bucks.

Speaker 1 So remember with Amazon's low back-to-school prices, just spend less on your kids because every dollar you don't spend on them is a dollar you haven't spent on them.

Speaker 1 We here at IMO are big believers that people never stop growing, that we're all in a state of continual becoming. So much so that Michelle even wrote a book about it.

Speaker 1 Because you are not one thing, you are all the things, constantly growing and changing into the next version of you.

Speaker 1 And every day and in every stage of your life, you're only getting stronger, bolder, more confident than you were yesterday.

Speaker 1 That's why desert-toned diamonds are the perfect way of celebrating all that you are and all that you are still becoming.

Speaker 1 They come in a range of unique, unexpected colors, colors that reflect your unique and unexpected journey.

Speaker 1 Warm whites, pale champagnes, deep ambers, smoky whiskeys, natural colors that are truly unlike anything else, just like you.

Speaker 1 So, this holiday season, discover desert diamonds and gift yourself something as unique as you are. And a reminder that you have so much ahead.
And that's why A Diamond is Forever.

Speaker 1 Visit adiamondisforever.com to learn more.

Speaker 1 Welcome back to IMO, everybody. Hope you're ready because it's officially November.
We are in holiday hustle mode and it's game time.

Speaker 1 It's got me thinking, what's the one thing that you most want for your brand this time next year? For me, the one thing I want next year is more of that sweet sound of the continuous cha-chings.

Speaker 1 And that's why I'm talking about Shopify. Look, Whether you're running a side hustle or a storefront, selling locally or globally, Shopify takes the guesswork out of starting a business.

Speaker 1 For all my solo entrepreneurs out there, Shopify basically operates as your back office, replacing the need for a full staff to oversee operations.

Speaker 1 But here's the game changer: Shopify Sidekick, Shopify Magic, and their entire suite of AI tools. Directions, reports, editing images, content ideas, Shopify's got your next move covered.

Speaker 1 Plus, built-in social selling means you can sell right where your audience is scrolling.

Speaker 1 Whether you're selling merch products or the next best idea, make sure you do it via Shopify at shopify.com slash IMO.

Speaker 1 For $1, it's time to put that business idea into action and start the next chapter. Again, that's shopify.com slash IMO, one link that has the potential to change your future.

Speaker 1 Hey, folks, here's something that kind of blew my mind. You know, for every human cell in your body, there's a microbe doing its own work, helping you digest, think, sleep, and even feel balanced.

Speaker 1 But most vitamins only support the human half of that equation. So, really, we've all been supplementing for half our health.
That's what makes Seeds New Cobiotics so different.

Speaker 1 They're daily supplements made to support both your body and your microbiome because the two are constantly working together to keep you well seed created three formulas designed to sync with your day there's the dmo2 daily multivitamin which helps fill the nutrient gaps your body and microbes need And then there's AMO2, Energy Plus Focus, which gives you smooth, sustained energy without caffeine or crashes.

Speaker 1 And then there's the PMO2 sleep plus restore, which helps your body wind down naturally and wake up recharged. Each capsule has two parts, one for your body and one for your microbiome.

Speaker 1 So every ingredient lands exactly where it's supposed to. Now, I've been taking the PMO2 before bed, and I can honestly feel the difference in how I rest.

Speaker 1 It's become this little quiet moment of taking care of my whole self and not just part of of it.

Speaker 1 So if you want to try it, head to seed.com slash imo20 and use the code IMO20 for 20% off.

Speaker 1 And stop taking care of only half your health and start supporting all of you with Seeds Cobiotics.

Speaker 1 Now, before we go, Dawn, tell me the story behind your necklaces and bracelets. Oh, okay.

Speaker 1 Cool stories.

Speaker 1 Three years ago, when we won the national championship in 2022,

Speaker 1 I love the fact that you won so many that you just got to break. Which one was it?

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 I met this

Speaker 1 young girl with

Speaker 1 pediatric cancer. Okay.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I was with a company that I have a partnership with, and they took me to just meet this young lady. They give her

Speaker 1 this duck that does some incredible things.

Speaker 1 And then they took them through a scavenger hunt. And at the end of the scavenger hunt, they gave her her duck.
And then

Speaker 1 they could make necklaces for their ducks. So I sat with her and I used her color coordination of what she was making a necklace for her duck.
And

Speaker 1 I wore it ever since because of strength. Like she was sitting, we were sitting together.
She has cancer. Yeah.
You would never know.

Speaker 1 Like, you would never know the strength that she sat with that cancer, whether her parents were

Speaker 1 just a little bit

Speaker 1 away from her.

Speaker 1 So I've worn this like for three years. Wow.
Like it is, it later on, like, like I did this in May.

Speaker 1 We were trying to win a national championship that year, the next year, and she actually sent another one because this was getting real, you know, beat down. She saw

Speaker 1 she needs nothing.

Speaker 1 Let me help her out. And then, you know, and then young people give me, you know, braces with grit, with uncommon favor, with a lot of, and I wear it until it pops.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 My husband has the same thing.

Speaker 1 Baraki has over the course of his first campaign, people will come and give them their lucky charms, you know, and it could be a rabbit's foot, a little, you know, Buddha or whatever it was.

Speaker 1 But so many people were praying for him and would give something precious to him. And he kept all those things.
You know, he has a drawer full of them.

Speaker 1 And even to this day now, he takes a few of them every day and puts them in his pocket, you know, just a mix, you know, just in the same way. It's, it's perspective and it's a blessing.

Speaker 1 I want to ask one thing. What do you do for fun?

Speaker 1 You watching any? Are you, do you, do you like reality TV?

Speaker 1 Are you?

Speaker 1 I'm going to say that because my brother, but you know, what you watching? She watches sports. That's reality TV.
Well,

Speaker 1 I do watch sports, but I'm a little morbid. I like, okay, I like crime.
Oh, yeah. I got, you know, I do.
I like crime. Like, if, if I could

Speaker 1 go in person to trials, like the, like, I went to a double murder trial in Columbia, South Carolina. Just for fun.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 Like,

Speaker 1 it's different. Like,

Speaker 1 TV does it no justice, y'all. It's like, you want the real thing.
I want the real thing.

Speaker 1 Like, it's a world person. Like, and the courtroom was set up as such that, you know, it was

Speaker 1 the guy that was on trial, like his section, not even his section, because the courtroom was set up that way. And then the people who were who were actually

Speaker 1 experts were sitting on this side. So I went in and sat on just what I perceive as the defense side.
Right.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 then the guy looked back at me and I didn't know what to do. So I was just like, like I just said, what's up?

Speaker 1 And I'm like, because I knew the judge. The judge told me.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm wondering, like, how do you do your trials?

Speaker 1 It was actually the judge that did the Murdoch case. Wow.
Judge Newman. Oh, wow.
He's a real good friend of mine.

Speaker 1 so he told me he got a double murder case and come on down. And you're four days old.

Speaker 1 I did. You're not like

Speaker 1 sunglasses or anything. You just

Speaker 1 showed up. I just showed up.
You're like a regular person. I did.
And then I stayed. Like, I stayed until Thursday.
It went three, it went four days.

Speaker 1 The jury were, they were deliberating. And then, I mean, I sat for a couple hours like.

Speaker 1 Okay, Don. And I was like, then I was like, oh, I got to leave because it's not, they're not going to.
And then it was like, you know, verdict's in.

Speaker 1 so you you i mean your heart lasted for the verdict i did wow i did wow it did it didn't work was that the first of many uh uh criminal trials that you know i don't know how you court tv yes it's like that's why you don't have any days off on your time off you sitting in a week lined up courtroom

Speaker 1 but that i mean i i walk like i'll try to walk every day yeah it is a clear-to-air just well after a murder trial you need to clear your mind are you Are you a dateline person? Oh, yes.

Speaker 1 I'm on the unsolved mysteries. Yes.
You saw the Murdoch case, all of that.

Speaker 1 Yes, I did too.

Speaker 1 I mean, it had me captivated. Yeah.
All right. Well, you know, I mean,

Speaker 1 respect.

Speaker 1 Like that, Don. Thank you.

Speaker 1 We didn't expect that one. Thanks for sharing.
That's my next book. Right.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Basketball murder mystery. There you go.
There you go. Bestseller.

Speaker 1 Well, we know we've got a production company, so you can get the right to turn it into a movie. Okay.
Okay. All right.
It's a deal. You heard it here first.

Speaker 1 Dawn, thank you so much. It is a pleasure.
Congratulations on all your success. And, you know, listeners, pick up uncommon favor.
It is an important read.

Speaker 1 It's a beautiful story about an amazing life and all the lessons you've learned from it.

Speaker 1 Worth a read for sure. And good luck on your book tour next season.
Thank you. Thank you.
Kill it. Thank you for leading up front.
Thank you. Yeah.
Thank you. Thank you, Craig.
Appreciate it.