Support with Compassion with Dwyane Wade and Gabrielle Union

It's a gabway.

There's a gabway.

And what is the gabway?

The right way.

The most efficient way.

No, it's the gabway.

And then it's the other way.

That's what it is.

Think about efficiency.

How do we solve the problem in the shortest amount of time?

This episode is brought to you by Cologuard and Chase Home Lending.

We're back.

Hey, what's happening, hoodie?

All right, thanks.

Go, hoodie.

Go, hoodie.

Thank you.

I'm on the house.

You know, this is you trying to style it up here.

This is not me trying to style it.

This is Kelly and Austin trying to style me up.

Oh, yeah?

Is that an outfit picked out by your younger?

By my 15-year-old.

Anything each time you see me with a hood on, that means Austin had a hand in the decision-making process.

So hood is

Austin.

Ads an extra layer of it.

a 15-year-old.

He's trying to keep his old dad looking young.

It's like, so you don't come up to the game coaching like, whose grandfather is that?

That's right.

It's like, no, that's my dad.

He's got a hoodie on.

So he's cool.

But no, you're looking shocked.

I feel good.

I got a good night's sleep in

the Airbnb last night.

And, you know, I'm staying.

I stayed in the one in West Hollywood that I stayed in last time.

So this is becoming your usual pad?

Yes.

And then I came to find out this was one of their featured places.

And I see why, because once you stay there, you want to keep coming back.

So what do you mean it's one of their featured places?

Like they have featured.

They have these spots where people rate it high enough.

Like this is a favorite place for a lot of people.

And I see.

So you're taking up space.

So I might be, but I'm.

You think you're one of their high-end.

I'm trying to become one of their high-end customers.

That's the beauty of Airbnb.

You got all these different levels because I don't think when my kids, because they use Airbnbs a lot, they're not, they can't afford to stay in the nicer, higher-ranked places.

So what makes this place so nice?

Well, aside from the fact that three bedrooms and there's only one of me

and two bathrooms, it's got two pools and a jacuzzi.

Very comfortable.

I got a good night's sleep.

You know,

I'm usually two hours ahead so i went to bed early woke up in the middle of the night yeah checked my notes because i was excited about dwayne and gabrielle being here so it's a it's gonna be a fun conversation yes yeah they're they're like old friends so that's it's gonna be good yeah but this this show is about sibling relationship and you know what people ask me all the time about you is what our relationship was like in college.

Yeah, because we went to the same college.

We did.

We went to Princeton together and I, you know, two years over.

And so we overlapped for two years.

And I would say that it was, it was sort of a normal relationship.

I think I was more worried about you

than

mom would have liked me to be.

But that's kind of usually what I do.

Yeah, you, you were always kind of a worrier.

But we didn't hang, hang out together.

No, it wasn't like we were going to the pub, drinking beers together, together, but no, no.

But whenever there was a party, we were usually both there together.

And what people may not know about you is that you were a DJ.

Correct.

Craigie Craig

on the mic.

Yeah.

You were Craigie Craig.

I was Craigie Craig.

So that was also another cool thing because the handful of parties that we had, which were always at the Third World Center, you and who else did you DJ with?

With Steve Mills.

With Steve Mills, also Williams.

Basketball team.

Yeah, and William Murphy.

Yeah, that's that's right so what did you all was your crew called something did you it was called oh my gosh it was called the playboy crew oh and we had these we had these orange jackets why because that's what people did back then

were you were you all the playboys no well i you know i wasn't a playboy but we might have had a couple of playboys in our crew yeah yeah we were the playboy crew we dj'd most of the parties that took place while we were there so that was pretty pretty cool.

Having your big brother on the mic, Craigie Craig on the mic.

So that was, that was, that was kind of cool.

So I think, you know, I mean, mom and dad raised us to be

close but independent.

Yeah.

You know, and I think as a result, that's how it played out at college for us.

I mean, you were not one to interfere in my love life.

You weren't, although some people said that guys were a little less, they were a little cautious about stepping up because of you.

But I don't think it it wasn't anything I would say or do

your presence was there, but I didn't feel any different when you graduated.

But I, you know, I, we, I feel fortunate to have, to have had you with me.

Um, I think it's as difficult of a transition as Princeton could have been for me coming from public school, being a black kid from the inner city.

I think having you there really, you know, helped give me a level of confidence and just sort of a

kind of a place to land.

Because every now and then we'd go out to dinner, or if you ever got invited by some Princeton booster or to go to dinner, which the basketball team got, you had sort of wealthy donors who kind of looked out for you.

You would always bring me to these dinners.

And I remember one dinner we went to at some older couple's house.

The Georges, Mr.

and Mrs.

George.

And they served artichokes.

Yes.

Do you remember that dinner?

I had never

had artichokes.

So imagine these two kids from the south side of Chicago.

We're sitting in some big house in Princeton, New Jersey.

I don't know where we were.

You know, we had table manners,

but the first course was artichokes.

I mean, and we had no idea what to do with this.

And I thought, because an artichoke looks like a cactus.

Yes, it looks like it would stick you if you touched it.

And then they, they, I mean, it's like you thought, is this a joke?

You know, of all things to feed two, two black kids from the inner city, you're going to start with artichokes?

Really?

You know, but they told us about pulling the leaves off.

And then scraping the scraping the little bit of artichoke, which I was like,

on the leaf of an artichoke, there is nothing there.

So I'm like, what are we doing?

We're just sucking on, you dip it in some butter and lemon and you'd suck on it.

And I was like, this is a joke.

This is a joke.

They're eating like plastic,

plastic.

It looked like a plastic plant.

i don't even remember what else they served but i remember that artichoke remember they i couldn't i don't i i think i was lost after that artichoke

outside on a wood burning

don't remember that i just remember that artichoke yeah well anyway um so uh so it was good it was it was a good experience and i think that um as a result it affected the way we um

our relationship into our adulthood.

And I think we're talking about that today.

We're talking about conflict resolution with siblings and

as adults, as adults, which is a totally different thing.

Yeah, I mean, you know, when we were little, we just dipped it out.

Hit you in the back.

That's right.

You just hit me and I couldn't hit you back.

And that was

fair to me.

Yeah, yeah.

But as we've gotten into adulthood, though, we, I mean, you know, we don't have many conflicts.

No, no, we don't.

So, I mean,

if we were to have any kind of conflict how to resolve it would we just we'd just talk it over right i i would think so but it would depend on what it was unfortunately but we can we can get into that in a moment but we got some guests we have some guests and i am so excited um with these two and like i said at the outset this is like having family on um first we've got uh well we've got gabrielle union and dwayne wade

and um

i want to start with gabrielle she's an actress and executive producer, an activist, and best-selling author.

She began her acting career in the 1990s and is known for her roles in films like Bring It On, 10 Things I Hate About You,

The Perfect Find, and The Inspection, which I'm trying to see.

Is there anything on there I haven't seen?

I haven't seen The Inspection yet.

Okay, you got time.

And then there's my good, my man, Dwayne Wade, who's a former professional basketball player who's in the hall of fame and named to the top 75 players of all time.

He won three National Basketball Association championships in 2006, 2012, and 2013.

The ultimate power couple.

As a member of the Miami Heat, he and Gabrielle Union have been married since 2014.

And Dwayne tried to dunk on me at the president's birthday party party when

we were together.

He doesn't remember this, of course, because he tries to dunk on everybody, but

he tried to catch a body on me, and I just kind of tiptoed out of the way.

So we can talk about that.

So you technically weren't dunked on because you just moved out of the way.

That's a good way to see it.

I could see

that.

I could see the look in it.

He had business in his mind when he was coming toward me.

So we have Gabrielle Union and Dwayne Wade.

Come on out.

Hey, guys.

Welcome to I'm O.

That's all right.

Yeah.

I think

that's some of the best advice for not getting dunked on.

Step aside.

Step aside.

Hey, y'all.

Welcome to IMO.

How are you guys doing?

Good.

It's been like an eventful 2025 so far.

So half of it is just, hang on.

Just

like, where are we now?

Where are we?

What are we doing?

But yeah, through it all, we've got jokes.

Yep.

We've like, thank God for humor.

We got jokes.

Yeah.

Yeah, we just, uh, we just keep coming back to family.

We keep finding our, finding new ways to family.

You know, we have new projects.

We bought a place up in, up where the farm country

in the country.

The, the, the water.

So what's happening up there?

We need silence in our life.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

And a place where we can just, there's not as many distractions.

Yeah.

Where we can just kind of have real quality time

where there's very little self-service.

And

so nobody's on their phones like that.

Yeah.

We're can't get any service.

So we're just really turning to each other.

So yeah, that's been good, though.

That's awesome.

That's awesome.

So you guys now are an old married couple.

I mean,

it goes.

You get close to me and Barack.

No, no, no, no.

We're 10 years.

We're 10 years in.

I heard you say that you had 10 years where you didn't even like Barack.

So I'm like, man,

where is that coming?

You know, I just tell the truth.

You know, it's like you have these periods, right?

And if you're married for 30 years, you know, like you just look at the odds.

If you're going to be married 30 years and somebody told you a third of those times wouldn't be great, you'd still take the odds.

You take those odds.

Those are great odds.

The point being is that marriage is

beautiful, but it's difficult.

And

you don't just walk away in the difficult times because you miss all the beauty because you don't, you, because you think it's got to be perfect, you know, and it is never perfect.

It just is, you know, it just is.

You just, it just is.

And you keep going.

You know, we had the fires, right?

And so

I'm always that person who, like, I stay in a place of I wish a

such such and such would, right?

So I think of every worst case scenario at all times, right?

I know the escape routes, I know what I'm going to do, I know what I'm going to say, I'm ready, right?

Yeah, welcome to the club, right?

Well, and then there's a fire, the fire breaks out because you know, first day, of course, Dee was like, Let's all pack a bag, we'll put the suitcase by the door.

Yeah, first day comes, we don't actually evacuate.

So, he starts taking a couple of things out that you need.

Second day comes, we don't actually evacuate.

Now, there's more things out.

Third day, it's like midday,

it doesn't seem like we're gonna evacuate.

I'm looking out the window and I see this plume of white smoke.

So I Google, what does white smoke mean?

And it says new fire.

But I'm kind of in shock, right?

You can see it.

I can see it.

It looks like it's on the other side of our neighborhood.

It's close and it's not in the direction of any other fire.

So I'm on all the apps.

I'm like, did we miss a fire that started?

It had just started, literally just started.

And I'm just looking out the window and this guy comes home and he's like, it's go time.

It's go time.

And I'm like,

I was in shock.

But I'm like, he turned into Liam Neeson.

He turned into Liam Neeson, she said.

I was jarred, but I still couldn't move.

Right, right.

I was just sleeping in my meditation.

Like, what is happening?

And he's like, what are you doing?

Want us to go time in?

They say you have a plan until you get hit in the mouth.

I heard a boss say that.

Everybody have a game plan until you get hit in the mouth.

And at that point, we got hit in the mouth.

And there was like a a quick moment of hesitation.

Yeah.

And then it was like, no, no.

No, it's going to be a good thing.

We got to go.

We got to go.

So I might have said it with a little.

Oh, like

a little bass in your voice.

It was go time.

It was time to go.

I'm thinking about all the family.

We got to go.

You thought about like which cars, right?

Because you're thinking, if we come back to nothing, you know, like at least the adults in our household, it's me, Dee, and my little sister who helps us raise cop.

He pulls out the three most expensive cars.

I've driven, me and my sister have driven none of it.

That's like, I don't, we don't even know how to operate.

I don't know how to turn on the radio.

We don't know where exactly we're evacuating.

Just north.

Like me and Tracy are like, we're in, you know, these cars and both of us are thinking, what is his deductible?

If, if I crash this thing, like, how much is this going to cost?

I couldn't, like, it was, oh, but this man with the plan.

Yeah.

And in the end, in those times, it's like you have family because as many people as I've talked about, we have a number of of friends who were affected by the fire.

And, you know, we asked the question, when it's go time, what do you take?

Right.

And for so many people, when they looked at the stuff,

what they really took was a little bit of a lot of nothing.

It was like, in the end, you just wanted to get out with the people that you love.

I don't know if you guys felt that way, but a lot of people had clarity about their stuff and what really mattered in this instance when everything could be gone.

You know, the only only thing I thought about that I didn't take, and I didn't take a lot, but really the photos and the pictures on the walls,

the memories, and the moments.

I know we have our iPhones and we have photos all in there, but it's a lot of photos that you cannot get back.

And when I came back to the house, I was like, I would have missed, really, really, really missed these.

So that would be the one thing I would go back and say, get all the photos off the walls.

This segment is brought to you by Chase Home Lending, who is committed to helping people in all communities gain confidence in the home buying process.

You know, Mish, we've had a number of questions from young people about where they should be putting down roots.

Can you talk about the importance of community and support networks when putting down roots and buying a home?

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

In fact, the very first home you remember that Barack and I bought was a condominium on South Side of Chicago in Hyde Park in East View Park.

And one of the primary selling features of us choosing that home was that it was literally five doors down

from the home that you had bought.

That's right.

So it meant a lot for us to be able to.

be close to you as new home buyers.

You guys had just gotten married, you and Janice, and you had just had Avery or Avery.

Avery was a baby when we moved in there and

all of those homes were condos, right?

So they were like apartments, but they were two and three bedroom places that were perfect for a fresh start or a first start in home buying.

And community for us as a family unit.

I mean, we all lived very close from each other.

Not everybody in our extended family family were homeowners.

Some people rented, but renting near people that you loved,

when we grew up.

It was like when we grew up.

You know, we were around the corner from two grandparents

and we were lived above Aunt Robbie.

We lived above our Aunt Robbie and we lived about 15 minute drive from our paternal grandparents.

So we were used to being close to each other.

And we could lean on each other.

So in addition to, you know, dealing with the new burdens of being homeowners, it was good to have family close by, you know, do the proverbial dropping by for a cup of sugar,

you know, having some ready-made babysitters on hand.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And shoot, we have a different situation, but the same kind of community that we

are providing for our younger kids.

And I'm doing it in a different way.

I'm in the community coaching their sports.

Yeah.

And

that is a great way to meet new people,

to have the kids socialize with different kinds of folks that they don't go to school with.

I've also spoken at the kids' schools.

I have participated in their field day activities.

But it's really important.

To invest in the communities that you live and are investing to buy a home.

Yeah, yeah.

And I mean,

I got to imagine it was hard for you to accomplish this when you were in the White House.

How did you do that?

Well, it's still being a part of the broader Washington, D.C.

community was important on a number of different

levels.

I mean, I wanted the broader community to feel like they had some connection to what was going on behind the gates of the White House.

So, for example, every time we had a state dinner, we made sure to invite local school groups,

local classrooms to come for the day, to join in the welcoming ceremony for

the country leader that was coming in.

We would work with local public schools to have them come in and taste the dinner and sit down and see the

table settings so that a lot of kids growing up in the inner city would understand that right down the street from them and right in their backyard was this amazing diplomatic exchange.

But if we didn't invite them in, they wouldn't understand what all the hubbub was.

So we did our very best, even in the White House, to continue having an investment in our broader community and not just in the world was

a priority for us, as it should be for any homeowner.

Thanks to Chase Home Lending for sponsoring this segment.

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So

you said your sister's with you.

Yeah.

So are you guys close as an extended family?

You know,

I see my little sister as a little sister.

Like we are seven years apart.

Like

me and my little sister are four.

That's a difference with four and then seven.

So

we were related, but we weren't really in the house at the same time.

We were not going through the same milestones at the same time.

So she's like just this little sister in my mind.

They're closer to the same age.

So he sees her as way more capable

and, you know, way more,

I shouldn't say important because she's important, but like.

She's just a little sister.

Adult.

Like, yes.

She is an adult to him.

She's a little sister to me.

And he values my little sister like no other.

I never thought I'll live with someone's sister.

That's right.

I mean, and, you know, like me and my little sister, we deal with so much with our, you know, with our, our family.

Our, you know, both of our parents are, you know, they're older, many health issues, dealing with insurance, dealing with who's going where, who's covering, you know.

Social security hasn't kicked in.

So we don't have caregiver relief and who's doing what and how.

I'm very meticulous, very anal.

There's a right way and there's a wrong way.

There is zero gray.

And my little sister lives in a place of varying colors of gray.

And so, you know, it's hard when you're under stress and you're like, well, why didn't you do this, this, and this?

And he's like, but she did it.

It just wasn't how you wanted it done.

There's a gabway.

There's a gabway.

And what is the gabway?

The right way.

The most

way, then it's the other way.

That's what it, that's what it is.

Think about efficiency.

Like, how do we solve the problem in the shortest amount of time?

But yeah, I mean, and she just has a different way of moving through life and she's way more positive.

The glass is not only half full, it is spilling over even when there's cobwebs in the glass.

So we just approach life differently.

And when you add in stressors,

it is, it's a challenge because we wake up to each other.

We haven't done that, you know, in a billion years.

And it's like,

and I want to send her a strongly worded email like I would send my older sister because she doesn't live at our house.

But she's there.

She is at breakfast.

And I'm like, are you just going to eat those?

Over avocados.

You know, like, just going to eat the avocado toast.

You just not responding to the family group chat.

Okay.

Okay.

You know what I mean?

But, you know, we, we figure it out.

But he's the translator.

That's what I was about to say.

Then you, how are you in the middle of all this?

I'm the comment factor of it, of all of this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so I'm not.

But I, you know, I understand the dynamics.

And, you you know, I also understand the Scorpios that's in my house.

Yeah.

Oh,

like they're both Scorpios.

Oh, daughters of the friends.

But I understand them a little bit.

And so I think for me, it's just really taking time.

I've really took a lot of time to get to know her sister.

Like, I'm, hey, late at night.

Let's have a conversation.

Let's get a drink.

You know, let's go to lunch.

Rise to school with our daughter.

Like, just trying to get to know the person

and, you know, not look at her as her little sister and all the things she says about having a little sister because I understand.

And so I'm just the one to say, well, look at it this way, because y'all are so polar opposites.

And she's never going to be, you're never going to do it how you want it done.

And so, you know, sometimes you got to take, you know, you got to move on the other side and perspective.

It's important.

Well, not many men could live with their sister-in-law.

You know, talk to them.

I mean, you know, I mean, I, yeah, I, I, and I, and, and I'm, I'm interested.

So, how's your relationship with your sister

compared to with

and vice versa?

Yeah.

Well, my relationship, I have four sisters,

very, very different ages.

One that I'm really, really close with because we have the same mother and father.

Okay.

And so our relationship is...

is great.

She raised me.

It's a respect factor there on both sides.

My other sisters are, you know, we have same mom, different dads, and things of that nature.

And so I

give them space and they give me space.

And when they don't give me space, I give them more space.

All right, well, well said.

Well, we'll twitch.

But I think, you know, one thing, and it comes with a little bit of the position that I'm in, where, you know, I've been

the leader of the family in a lot of ways, right?

Because of this position.

And so my relationship with my sisters become a little, you know, different because sometimes they become dependent on.

And that changes the brother-sister relationship when you have to depend on each other, especially in the financial way and all these other ways.

And so I give that space because I'm like the parent.

I'm like, you know what?

Think about that.

Think about that ask a little bit.

Right.

Sit on that.

So, yeah.

And what about you?

That age difference between him and his next oldest sister,

you and Tragiller would.

Like five years.

Five years apart.

So when I first met his family,

the older sisters who are closer in my age

immediately

good.

Yeah, we're good in the hood.

But like with Tragell, because that's

she has been the protector.

She has been the watchdog.

She has been the gatekeeper to keep him sane and to keep him, you know, doing everything he needs to do without interference from anybody.

And I'm like, but I'm not, I'm not just anybody.

I just, I just happen to be his wife.

And I think, you know, before I got to the wife stage, like when we were just like, you know, the very beginning, and it was like, you know, I think him, you know, Tregel and his mom were like, what do you want?

Who are you?

Who are you, you older lady?

What do you want?

You know, what do you want?

You, you cougar, cradle, like rotting, rotten.

Yeah, like, what do you want?

Cradle rotting.

But I was like, actually, we

both just got divorced.

So we're kind of in the same space.

Like, I didn't have a kid at 20.

Like, I'm still trackless.

Like, and I'm not racing to do that.

So I'm straight.

I got my own bank account.

So I'm good.

I just, I just like him, you know, and we'll see where it goes.

But it, so it took, it took some years really to like,

you know, earn, earn their trust and then also for them to earn my trust.

So we can be comfortable equally.

Right.

And now,

like,

yeah, it's, it's easy because we are all on the same side.

So we,

um, his mom and his sister Dragill, we tend to have the same complaints about the same things that we then want to take to him.

And how do you not see this?

See, me and your mama and your sister, like, you know,

but um, now you got some action.

Reinforcements now.

Yeah.

And once she got married, once his sister Tragill got married, now,

you know, now it's like she gets it,

you know, because she's coming into a relationship where he'd been married before and he has kids.

And I was like, huh, it's not so easy as it is.

Not so easy is it, you know, but you, you know, you, you want that grace, you give that grace, and eventually you receive that grace.

So, yeah.

But it's a learning curve for sure.

Hey, everybody, Craig Robinson here.

As you know, when we do these podcast recordings in LA,

I always ask my wife to get an Airbnb for me, but most importantly, I want the ones that are guest favorites for my stay.

These are the most loved homes by other guests on Airbnb.

And you know, we've got some trips as a family set up for our kids' AAU basketball tournaments, and they're in small towns all over the country.

And we

always book guest favorites when we go places that we haven't been before.

That way, you make sure you get something that the other guests find really appealing.

So when you are planning your next trip, try guest favorites.

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Families, you know, complicated.

That's a perfect segue to the listener question because Charlotte needs a little bit of help with her sister.

And Natalie, do you mind reading the question for us?

Yeah, I got a short little story, so bear with me.

Hi, Michelle and Craig.

My name is Charlotte, and I live in Tacoma, Washington.

My sister and I have lived in the same city as one another since college and have always been close.

We are both married with teenage kids.

My sister's daughter is a couple of years younger than my kids.

I love my niece, but she has been really challenging for my sister to parent.

She has a ton of anger and is in therapy for it, but she takes a lot of these feelings out on my sister.

She's also much meaner to her mom than her dad, and I suspect it's been hard on my sister's marriage.

I wouldn't be surprised if the stress at home is affecting my sister at work or in her other close relationships.

Which brings me to my role in this.

For a long time, my sister talked to me about the fights she was having with my niece, but in the past year, she's gotten noticeably distant.

She avoids talking about anything going on in her family, and she's acted closed off and even standoffish if I go there.

She's also been making increasingly rude comments at my expense, which I recognize is coming from stress, but it's still hurtful.

So my question is, how do I support my sister, her family, and her daughter, especially when my sister won't even let me in?

Do I allow things to stay surface level for a while and wait for it to get better?

Or do I try to find a different way to talk to her?

Is there anything different I can do to support her or even her daughter better while also protecting our bond?

Thanks, Charlotte.

Well, that's a question.

So it sounds like Charlotte knows that there's something wrong.

And my question is, let's back up and

figure out, is it better to hit questions head on or beat around the bush and sort of subtly get to the answer?

Right between the eyes.

Like, let's just get to it.

Let's get to it.

Nobody has, you know, oodles and noodles of time these days.

You know, we all have families.

Let me know.

Because it could be something you could fix on a dime.

Could be something you're just not really aware of.

Could be your tone.

Things you can adjust.

But in this situation, I first would want to hear her sister's version of this.

I want to hear from the sister's husband because it doesn't sound like the sister has a lot of support.

But I would also say that it's probably way worse than

what her sister has shared.

And it sounds like it has gotten to a place where it is so humiliating and so embarrassing and so hurtful

that It's embarrassing to share that, especially if Charlotte's daughter is, you know, like doesn't have a lot of problems.

It just sounds like you're imagining a judgment that is not happening, or maybe it is.

That's another question that you would probably have for Charlotte's sister.

You know what I mean?

So you are like, I bet you they're judging me because that's how you're really thinking about yourself.

So I would rather keep distance

than

feel your judgmental eyes or whatever it is that, you know, the sister is imagining that Charlotte's doing.

Well, and like you make a good point.

We don't know the age dynamic is who's older, who's younger.

You know, there's probably some history there of, you know, what that relationship has been.

So,

you know, and like her taking shots at Charlotte, we got to turn this around because there's too much heat on me.

There's too much heat on me and I'm going to redirect it where I think the judgment is coming from.

Yeah.

Except Charlotte's like,

she feels like she's just taking strays because she's just trying to be supportive.

But it's the assumption of judgment and, you know, ridicule and whatever that is happening to me in the sister's mind.

But in this situation,

my advice would be, you got to pull your sister aside and have the conversations you didn't have because

this is when bad dynamics get in the way of the future, right?

Because it's, you know, whatever is fueling that thing that's keeping Charlotte and her sister from being able to just have a straight-up conversation, a kind of, even though those conversations are hard.

I mean, look, when Craig was going through his divorce from his first wife, I've said this time and time again, he did not tell me that they were having problems.

He did, you know, I thought they were the Cosbys, you know, I literally,

so I went from, and I was close to my first sister-in-law, right?

We were, we lived down the street from one another.

So sometimes things are bad.

And it's just, as my brother said, he didn't want to pull us in because he didn't want us to start judging.

And if things worked out and so on and so forth.

If things worked out, she would never get over it.

But that wouldn't have been the case.

I might have been mad, you know, but she wouldn't have gotten it.

But that's why you need to have those conversations because it would have been better for him to come to me and say, Mish,

you know, I'm going to share something with you, but, you know, I need you to keep a cool head because I have to have a safe place to come.

We've since had that conversation.

And I think this is why in his second marriage, you know, we've approached the dynamic of brother and sister differently and our communication is different because I don't want him to ever think that he could be in any kind of harm and that I would judge him.

I might, you know, I don't know how I'm going to react.

If somebody's messing with my brother, my first reaction is buck up.

You know, I can't say say that I'm not going to be that way, but I'd rather like, let me get through that, you know, so that we can then step in and have the conversation.

That's why that dynamic is important, because when stuff like this happens, you need your family.

Because it could, Charlotte could be part of the solution to help her sister just be another voice at the table for her niece, you know, because sometimes you can hear, you, you can hear from somebody else what you cannot hear from your own parents, which is why the village is so important, you know?

So I would say sit your sister down if you can.

Try, try, push through

that pain or whatever it is and

help her know that she can share with you whatever it is without judgment and you're there to help.

Yep.

I was in Utah and I had a speech to do.

I thought I did well.

I'm sure you did.

And then

your sister came out and I realized that they was crying when she got done.

You see that answer she just had?

That's how I felt in Utah.

My perspective, I think we all could be right on our perspectives.

And mine will come from an angle of watching my sister-in-law when she's around her sister.

Also to my relationship with my sister.

Sometimes you got to take it all the way back to the basics.

And the basics to me is focus on your relationship just with your sister sometimes you just need your sister you know and and and provide that safe space is just being a sister not being not being the untone who brings judgment just be that person that she can come to you and she wants to talk to because y'all have um history and similar and similar background so i think sometimes when i see tracy light up it's when her and gap are just being sisters it's not being until you doing not doing this not doing that it's when they just hanging out as sisters and that allows for you to want to open up

more so than feeling judgment from someone or with all these, you know, these emotions that we go through.

And so, I would just say, Charlotte, just be a sister, you know, like you guys were when you grew up before it was husbands and kids and all the things.

You guys, y'all was just sisters, and maybe more would come out then.

Yeah, this makes me wonder, though, is it ever okay

as a

sibling to go around your sibling and go directly to their kid and talk to them

or

maybe go around the sibling and talk to her husband, Charlotte's husband, a brother-in-law.

Is that ever

a good idea?

And I can tell you

the gab face.

That's not for me.

I mean, listen, if you really think someone is suffering,

I will try everything that I'm going to go directly to you.

And if I feel like I'm getting shut down, but I still feel like, oh, you're circling the the drain, like it could get to a danger zone.

I will try every avenue to reach you, whether it be through a mutual friend, another relative.

You know, we, we have a, a group chat that we call the sanity crew.

And it's, you know, three of us couples.

And we could take to the sanity crew.

Yeah, I like that.

You know, or I can go to any, anyone else in the sanity crew and be like, this is what's happening with me and D.

Yeah.

Can you talk to him?

I, because I don't think I either I'm not hearing him

or

I don't, I, cause I don't get it.

Yeah.

Is there anything that you can do?

So I'm not above doing that at all,

especially if it gets into like that danger zone where it's, they're kind of cutting off from everything.

And, you know, like when you're left to circle the drain on your own, it can get dark fast.

But also I'm okay with space.

Like, let's, let's give it a beat.

And maybe she is being inundated, not just by her sister, but by everyone who is a witness to this.

And just a, just a beat.

And then just say, hey, you want to go get a drink?

Do you want to go, you know, go to a museum?

Just, you want to sit in the park.

I'll go get some subs.

And then it kind of takes the pressure off it having to be about your kid or whatever,

my, my perceived lack of support from her husband.

Yeah, kind of getting back to just,

you know, but also space, you know, like I don't like, if I feel like my back is to the wall,

give me a minute.

Yeah.

Maybe a few weeks.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I can figure this out.

Like, yeah.

Yeah.

But I, I, I, I, Duane, I like what you said about just sometimes being with people, you know.

And it sounds like this family, Charlotte's family, they spend a lot of time together because they're having meals on a regular basis.

They're in one another's homes enough that she sees what's happening with her niece.

But when I think about what I might do in that situation,

I would probably be cautious about saying something, especially if I'd gotten some pushback.

But I would probably try to spend more time with my niece if I could.

That just sort of just like be a sister is like maybe just be an auntie too, you know, so it doesn't feel like you're addressing a problem, but maybe this is a cry for help.

And so, you know, maybe,

maybe I can take her to lunch, or maybe I can just pick her up and do something that seems innocuous

or fun

where maybe this girl will open up to me in a different way,

where she doesn't feel watched.

Or if you set up a regular session with her, like, let's go get our nails done.

I'm just thinking, you know, you're 12.

Why don't, Auntie, I'm going to take you.

We're going to do something you like.

I bet she likes getting her nails done, especially if she's being sassy.

She probably got, probably got acrylics, you know?

So let's talk.

Sounds like that girl's got acrylics.

So you'll take her to

snapping her nails at you.

I bet she's got some nails to snap.

So take her to get her nails done, you know, and sit and see if you can, in a natural, just sort of being way, find out what's going on with your niece.

I try to do that.

You know, I don't do it as much with your younger boys because

I'm not with them as much.

But with the older kids,

when we were in the White House, his older two, we'd always, whenever they could, they would go on trips with us in the White House.

You know, we would always make it a point to,

because the thought was, okay, we got these kids growing up in the White House and being on the world stage.

They should know something about the world, right?

So usually on their breaks, that's when we would plan a big trip.

You know, that's when we went to see the Pope or we went to South Africa or we went to the Great Wall or, you know, just so that these, you know, my, my girls would walk away from this experience with something more than paparazzi following them, right?

But we would always include Avery and Leslie.

And those times with grandma, you know, so I got a lot of good time with them on these long, amazing trips.

Just, you know, know a lot of times I'm working and come back into the room and they're playing Uno or they're doing something silly with grandma but I I'd like to think that

I know for Leslie for example I know she knows that she can call me you know that she can text me and I think that

not just because I'm her aunt, but it's that time in.

Because sometimes you got to look a kid in the face and go,

I see you.

And especially when you, your aunt is important and the first lady, you need to be able to say, no, no no never too important for you and i'm going to say this in between seeing the queen and talking to the da da da you're here too come sit down and not everybody has the platform of the white house but there are versions of that of making sure that the kids in your life know that you see them

so that when it's time when they do fall short, when they are circling the drain, maybe, maybe they'll just reach up for a lifeline.

And maybe Charlotte can do some of that, a little of that.

You know, I'm so curious, who in their family is that person who can just pull that little girl up?

Yeah, don't you?

All right, knock it off.

So let's, let's get to it.

Like, what do we pull that little girl?

What are we really, what are we really dealing with right now?

You know what I mean?

Like, and that, like, over nails or, or, um,

but like, there's,

I'm trying to think of who our cut the S person is.

That's not you, Gap.

No, not with anybody's kids.

Yeah, no,

I tend to be, you know, a little more judgmental.

They're definitely not coming to me first.

But like, you've done that.

You did that.

Number one.

Don't look too far.

You did it with Torin.

Yeah, you did it with my nephew, Torrin.

I think

going back to what I said is, you know, I'm not trying to come in and be a specialist.

Kids don't want a specialist.

And so if you ask me to talk to Torin, I'm not going to talk to Torrin about what you want me to talk talk to him about and not the way that you want me to talk to him because I'm just coming in as a specialist at this point.

He's not going to share anything with me or be open and honest.

And so I have to take a whole different approach.

And I got to be uncle.

I got to be somebody who actually understands.

And sometimes we come in and the way we sand it, it don't feel like we understand that we've been there before.

And so,

yeah, it's a different approach.

It really is.

And as a parent, as a father, you have to be the bad cop a lot.

So when you try and come in and try and be the good cop, it just doesn't work.

So I need Mish to, all right, come

ease in and

take some of the load off this kid because he's catching it from me.

Or

it's somebody in our communities, either another family member or one of our good friends who also knows the kids who can come in and be like, well, you know, just like you're saying, you can't come in as a special.

That's a that's a wonderful way of putting it.

You can't come in as a special, you, you, you can't just come in as the point guard telling guys what to do.

You're the captain of the team, you got to come in and be a teammate and say, I'm suffering through stuff too.

And

what else is

with you?

Yeah, yeah, that's that's I think that's helpful for Charlotte.

But, but what are some other strategies we can give Charlotte?

You know, that's what I'm, I mean, because every family is different.

And by us on the outside looking in, it's kind of tough.

But I really, I really feel like it doesn't have to be the people who are asking the questions.

You know,

like you said,

there's got to be somebody in their

community, in their village who can help.

Well, what I think about is, you know, and this doesn't help Charlotte in the immediate future, but if people are listening, you know,

it sort of reinforces the importance of

establishing a good sibling dynamic, right?

Because,

you know, as I try to tell my girls, you, you guys are all you have, really, you know,

and sometimes it's like, so before the problem gets where it is for Charlotte and her sister, where they aren't communicating, whatever that dynamic was, let's step back and just sort of talk about why it's important to parent and how do you parent your kids to have a good dynamic, you know, because a lot of times bad sibling dynamic stems from some something some parent did, you know.

I always talk about the fact that I think that one of the things that helps our dynamic is that we're opposite genders, you know, and brother, sister, especially little sister, I always looked up to him, you know, even though I know my mother loves her black son way more.

You know, I mean, I joke about this, she didn't love him more, but there's just a favorite black mother dynamic of Craig, Craig, Craig.

You know, he said, I could, you know, I was like, mom, I'm the first lady.

What more do I have to do?

That's all.

She's like, Craig's here.

He was Craig Craig.

And Craig Craig's in the house.

I'm like, okay,

we still, we still going there.

But, you know, I was a fan too.

And I think a lot of that is, you know, if he were a girl, I'd probably hate him with that dynamic, you know, because he was the beloved older, you know, sibling.

And, you know, sometimes parents set that up thinking, well, you should be more like X and you shouldn't be, you know, using the other child to help parent the other one.

Setting up, you know, I want to talk a little bit about that because,

you know, know there are a lot of people who are parenting siblings there are a lot of people you know how do we avoid that dynamic from happening and how how do you how do we think about parenting differently because i tried never to compare my daughters as girls i tried to avoid even for example having conversations about grades at the table right or who did what better you know not to say that we couldn't reward but i tried never to,

well, you tell us and now you report out because the younger sibling is always catching up to the older one, you know?

But I was, I always tried to be mindful of that, especially with two girls of how do I love them both, parent them both, but keep, keep my parenting neutral enough that they don't feel like they're competing with one another.

But I think about that to this day to make sure that that doesn't happen.

I don't know about how you guys think about that.

I mean, there's three girls in our house.

And,

you know, my parents initially, they were like, we're going to, you know, have four years between the first and second with the thought of, as we have to start paying for college, one's still in high school.

And by the time that one is out of, you know, so they could afford it.

Perhaps my little sister who came seven years after me,

I said, accident.

They said, no, it was a plan, but it created such a weird space dynamic um where my older sister became like a mom you know what i mean my older sister was doing all of the parent type of stuff at a younger age because both my parents worked and did overtime and you know when my they were both going to college when you know we we were very young so she like a lot fell on her and it never changed yeah like to this day you know what i mean like my sister is the one you know with my dad at skilled nursing and you know making sure everything like every day in addition to going to work in addition to her kids and her new grandchild it's it's it's kind of never ended and then i kind of got to be sort of free

you know what i mean like i had there was no expectation of me to do anything but get good grades and then my little sister was kind of like it was sort of at the towards the end of their you know the good years of their marriage.

So she just kind of became this

extra person.

You know what I mean?

Not that she she was parenting herself, but it just was very different.

Yeah.

Very different.

Like my little sister still gets on my mom's lap and you know, my mom rocks her.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Still.

And I just kind of had to figure out, you know, I leaned much heavier on my friends.

Yeah.

They were a much bigger influence.

But somehow, because they probably thought, oh, the middle child is getting nothing, they ended up giving me more,

more attention, more special time.

And then it kind of, according to them, I sort of emerged as the favorite.

But it's really kind of like you're watching, you're observant.

And I'm like, okay, my dad's super, always wanted a boy.

I'm going to be the closest thing to, you know, a boy that he can have.

Like, right?

I'm giving, I'm doing all the sports.

I'm learning the iBack formation.

Like, I know Nebraska football backwards and forwards.

But then my mom is like very, you know, cultured and she likes museums and, you know, all of that.

I'm like, bet, I'm there.

Like I become a history buff.

Like, you know, we used to go to the

newsstand and buy newspapers from around the world.

And, you know, so I tried to appeal to, you know, you kind of appeal to their ego.

You were a politician.

You were in the middle.

You, and you had also temperamentally, you had that ability.

I'd say this to

Barack when it comes to, you know, our oldest, Malia, is very much, she, she is, um,

um,

she's going to figure out what, who you are, what do you like, and let's let's discuss, right?

Unusual.

She's always been that way, you know.

I used to say, Barack was like, when Malia was a teenager, it wasn't like she was going out any less or doing anything differently.

She would tell me, I'm going out this weekend, but I'm going to go in and give dad like 15 minutes.

And she'd go into the treaty room and tell me about Syria.

Oh, wow, really?

Oh,

I must be,

you know, and then she'd be like, okay, well, I'm gone.

Brock would come out of the treaty room going,

I just had an amazing conversation with Malia,

you know, and I'm like, okay, you know, and Sasha is like a cat.

She's like, I don't touch me.

Don't pet me.

I'm not pleasing you.

I, you come to me, you know, and Brock's like, well, she's difficult.

I was like, no, the, the, the first one.

was a pleaser, right?

And it was just temperamentally, they're still like that, right?

So, you know, if you're not sort of understanding the temperament, so you were probably temperamentally somebody who just understood people dynamic in a different way, right?

To be a chameleon, you have to be a chameleon.

And if you can be a chameleon, you know, but some people parent to one child or one personality child, but then you have three.

Yeah, you know, they parented, I think, towards me.

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Let me go to what Craig and I know.

We know sports.

And so, you know, I've saw coaches try that when one person mess up, the whole team suffers.

Right.

And then I've seen, you know, teams where the best player of the team is exempt from what the others have to do.

And so, one, I don't know if it's a right answer to this, right?

But what I do know,

when it comes to the bending of the team, what we've responded more to is when we all get the same punishments.

When this, you know, and I've been on teams where we had the big three and the little 12.

I've had teams where we haven't.

And when three is pushed up and others are not, you feel some resentment there and you can see it and feel it.

And so then it becomes on the leaders to like have to go back and be like, no, I'm not.

And so I think from a sports standpoint, just, you know, when it comes to the parenting side of it is the work will show, right?

If coach is treating us all the same, how do I get,

how do I get more?

I'm going to do more work.

And so I think when it comes to parenting, you know, coming in, understanding that they're all individual, but,

here's the rules and here's the regulations.

And you're going to show me what you deserve and what you should have, not, you know, not anything else.

And it's going to be from your work.

And that's kind of how, you know, I approached a relationship with, you know, I've had a son since I was 23, all the way down to Cobb at six.

I approached a relationship with each one of them as individuals, but also too.

I love Cobb.

That's my baby, but I'm on her too, because your work has to show when you want certain things.

If not, we don't get those.

And so go forward.

We just had this

heated discussion the other day, you know, because he's never raised girls.

Yeah.

And I grew up with three girls.

And you can see

how our father spoke to us and how he, the tones he used and the analogies and how it's impacted all of us to this day when it comes to the men in our lives and the choices we've made surrounding men.

And so I'm like, okay, feels a little harsh.

Feels a little harsh, but also

trying to figure out what is the balance.

Like, how do you break them of a habit without breaking them?

Yeah.

And it's a very delicate balance.

And each kid is so different, so different.

And Kav,

like, you know, I came in, I came into the rescue and wrong answer, wrong answer.

And it came back to bite me very fast.

Karma came so fast.

And what, I don't remember what I said to her that caused her to be staring me down all day Sunday.

I told her to,

I don't know, share, stop doing something.

We had a little play date or whatever.

And she was like,

she gave you the

hours, hours.

She's on the trampoline across the yard.

So

is it different?

You can tell, you can coach her a certain way, but you can't.

I don't know if I can't.

I am.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I am.

And it has to start, you know, and she's six.

And so, and I'm her basketball coach right now, right?

I'm the one who's training her.

And I told her mom, I said, her and our relationship is going to be a little different

because the things I'm going to have, the things she's going to have to do to want to be a great athlete, when she said, oh, I want to be better than Angie Reese.

Okay.

You say.

I hear you.

And so the things that you're going to have to do, you're not going to want to do.

And so, yeah, my tone is going to be a little different than your mom's.

You know, I'm going to look at our conversation, it's going to be a little different.

And so,

I believe, from my, my, you know,

my understanding is she respects it.

You know, she respects the way that I communicate, but she doesn't like it, but I can see her right away when we get done with that moment.

She comes, we hug, we don't miss a beat, and she's not staring me down.

We on the couch, so it's a different dynamic that we have.

Not saying her mom needs to have that dynamic, right?

But

this is just this is how this is going to go.

I'm coached, Yeah, yeah.

But

to get back to Charlotte, it really feels like she should be focused first on her relationship with her sister.

Yeah, I think we all agree on that.

Yeah.

Because that's the thing she can control, right?

There you go.

And control is a strong word, but

it's the closest and most real relationship in this dynamic, you know?

So I think we all agree at this table, in our opinion.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

i want to i want to be there for like easter i know really next family gathering i want to know what advice she took what direction she went in

i know

advice all right really she's like they were all wrong that's okay charlotte this is the perfect time to figure out some tips that we can give charlotte to

navigate through this

okay the the first the first tip that we all agreed on is that work on your relationship with your sister though So, so that that's just the sister relationship.

Not that I'm taking care of you.

I'm going to fix it.

I'm going to, it's just you and me just being.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And any, any, anything else come to mind?

She says space.

We talk, we talk about space.

Space.

Talk about space.

Space.

That's a good tip.

So

yeah.

And also, Charlotte, this is a good, you know, time to be a little introspective.

Like, is there something that you are doing, Charlotte, that could be the thing that doesn't allow your sister to want to tell you?

As my husband has pointed out numerous times with me and my little sister, I had to check myself because I'm not, I'm not the warm and fuzzy, come to me with your problems.

I'm, I'm the person you come to when you're ready to solve it.

But the listening and the, you know, getting to know like how this, you know, the situation started, no, that's not me.

But I had to check myself.

Why doesn't she tell me anything?

Maybe it's the tone that you're speaking.

And I had to come to have it come to Jesus with myself.

Or maybe it's what we talk about, right?

Like sometimes, and a good friend of ours told us this,

Lauren, she came over and told us this.

Sometimes when people tell you stuff,

they just want you to listen.

They don't really want your advice sometimes.

And I think it's trying to find like, do you want, like, and we had this conversation, do you want my advice or do you just want me to listen?

And sometimes because of our positions, we give us so much advice.

Sharada sister may not want your advice.

She just may want you to just be there, moment.

Listen, you know, and not always give your two cents.

Yep.

Excellent.

Anything else?

Any more tips?

No, I think that's pretty thorough.

I think the overall, my message to the listening audience is,

let's start with the thinking about how we parent

our children as siblings.

That, you know.

you know, what choices as parents are we making that can affect that dynamic?

And is that something that we as parents can look at in terms of how we talk to our children, how we compare them, how we set them up?

Because if we want our kids to have this foundation and this relationship going forward,

it starts when they're little.

And it oftentimes

is very impacted by how parents parent.

And that's just as important as what you do to the individual is

how do you create the bond among your children?

That that requires work and thought

and time and intention.

Yeah, consistency.

Well, you guys, thank you for that.

No, thank you, thank you guys for giving us a lot to think about.

No, really, yeah,

touched on some things.

No, it's great.

Thank you.

Able to help Charlotte.

Yeah, no, this is great.

You guys are the best.

No,

it's the best.

And good luck with all the all the things.

Yeah.

And stay ready to go.

We stay ready.

So we got to get ready.

Let's go time.

It's gold time.

Hey there, it's Michelle and Craig.

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