Follow The Fun with Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers

And I think we're always stronger as a result of

we've had some pretty large fights.

And like, I do think

fun,

fun.

Like, I've never shouted louder in a way that

I can't believe my voice can do that.

Next day, yeah, I would, there's no one better that I would shout at than you.

No, because I can, I can go toe-to-toe.

Like, it's bad.

It's like a feral.

We have one blow at every like two years.

I know.

It's not like you look forward to them.

Yeah,

it's like,

I hate it.

In fact, it usually is within the same conversation that we're then crying.

Like, like, why not?

I love to do this.

Yeah.

This episode is brought to you by Indeed and Progressive Insurance.

Hello.

Hi, Craig Robinson.

What's going on?

Michelle Obama, not too much.

Yeah, yeah.

It's great to see you.

It's good to see you too.

You're looking good.

Your sharp shirt.

You like this shirt?

I've gotten some compliments on this shirt.

I'm very happy.

Kelly will be very happy with us.

She's doing you, doing right by you.

Thank God for Kelly.

Yes.

Thank God for her.

Thank God for her.

I'd be in sweats if it wasn't.

So you're enjoying your time in DC?

I am.

You know, the weather has been wonderful.

That's the thing.

And it's been walkable.

And, you know, I, I.

Have you been walking?

I.

Left my Airbnb

the last couple of days and walked around.

I'm in a nice residential neighborhood that's very close to a bunch of restaurants and coffee shops.

Have you gone out to

coffee?

Did you go to the library?

What are you doing when you're walking around?

Are you just walking around?

Just walking around.

Just get

you make any friends?

You know, my sister is being funny because

people tend to talk to me when I walk around.

And they look at me and they look and they say, boy, you look familiar.

And I was like, oh, no.

I get that all the time.

Did you get that on your walks?

I got that on my walks.

But I'm in Washington, D.C.

That's what I'm wondering.

I'm just wondering.

I'm just wondering what it's like for you walking around your little Airbnb community.

It's been a really neat neighborhood.

Did you make breakfast today for yourself?

I did.

I made

yogurt and I have.

bunch of fruit.

You know, you don't make yogurt.

You open yogurt.

Well, I opened yogurt and I put the fruit in the yogurt.

Okay.

From your stockpile.

From my stockpile of fruit.

See, and this is something you couldn't do if you were staying at a hotel.

You'd have to just go downstairs and buy it in the cup.

And it'd be crunchy.

You couldn't make it on your own as you have done.

And I'm enjoying making my own breakfast.

You know what?

What I should have gotten was a little bit of granola to put in there to make it a little crunchy because I didn't order that.

I didn't order it.

I put that on your Airbnb list.

I didn't put that on my list.

Well, anyway, it's good to have you in our fair city.

It is good to be here.

We got a good show.

I am looking forward to it.

the i listen i i'm so excited i got i have goosebumps and it's not because it's cold in here

and so you you you'll love this so i'm coming in this morning

and kelly texts me austin who's our 15 year old says please tell bow and yang that Aaron and I are fans of his.

Now, they're 15 and 13.

And so they're just at the age where they can watch

Saturday Night Watch.

Okay.

All right.

Because they're strict parents.

We are strict.

We are strict parents.

There's bedtime even on Saturday.

Malia had to convince them to start watching our rental movies because if it wasn't for Malia

watching PG, you know, Toy Story 2.

And

you know,

Malia was just like, you can't go out like that, dude.

You're in high school.

You got to get

Chucky or something, you know, Friday the 13th.

So we have with us today.

Oh, my Okay, we digress.

Yes.

Rogers.

Yes.

And, and I, you know, podcast pros.

We're going to bow down.

I mean, we are neophytes to we don't know what we're doing.

We're going to learn.

We're going to get schooled in how it's done.

I'm so excited.

I'm fans of both of them.

They are hilarious.

They are at the heart of culture, which you know nothing about.

I don't know.

Are they going to have to help me out?

We're going to help.

We're going to help my brother out.

Bowen and Matt, come on out so we can school my brother on.

Hi, hi.

Hi, hi.

Oh my gosh.

I have a serial hack.

I'm going to teach him about some serial action.

I have a serial hack.

It's the old.

You have to look for yourself.

Oh, friends.

Hello.

It's so good to see you guys.

Thank you.

To say it's an honor to be here is the understatement of the central.

Oh my God.

We are honored.

Yeah.

Well, you're not, you're not neophytes, that's for sure.

Oh, we are.

I mean, it's, it hasn't even been a year.

I'm not good at this.

No, but it's already so established.

And this is, this is the only thing you need to say to sound like you're a podcasting pro, ready.

Okay.

And you're going to agree with me on this.

Just if you talk to like someone like on like the sound crew, you just go, do you want me down the axis?

Like, do you want me down the axes?

Down the axis.

Which, by the way, you're all crushing.

We're down the axis.

So what is that?

This is the axis of the microphone.

And then you just want to direct the sound downward.

Oh, wow.

This is also Bowen's scientific background.

Why did you all tell us about down the axis?

Nobody mentioned the axis to us.

It's like, we're just talking.

It might be something that I made up.

Wait.

So that's Bowen's advice.

That's very Bowen.

And here's my advice to you.

Here's a cereal hack for your breakfast preparation.

Raisin bran, but you cut up strawberries and put it in the raisin bran.

Or

peanut Cheerios, strawberries, bananas, raisins.

You're going going to love the way you look.

I guarantee it.

It's just like, woo, that's Dan.

Wouldn't have thought that.

I'm already a raisin brand guy.

I was waiting for something deep.

Yep.

That's deep.

Is that deep?

Really?

Putting extra fruit in a frigate cereal?

I mean, but here's the thing.

More fruit.

More fruit.

Imagine that.

But if he thinks there's a way to make yogurt, I know, guess right.

I was like, no, he's me.

He thinks, like, I made breakfast.

Thank you.

I made some yogurt.

It's like, oh, did you really?

I know you were were going to say the only sentence you really need to know as a podcaster is, listen, wherever you get your podcast.

That's the podcast.

That goes the way they all wrap up.

Wherever you get your podcast.

Yes, that we do.

We do that.

We do that.

Sometimes I forget to do that when I'm on other people's shows.

But I'm going to get that down.

So tell our listeners about las culturistas.

How do you say it?

We say it las culturistas and then we sometimes culturistas put some verb into it you know it really was just like fascinistas or maxinistas

so that's really where it came from culturist culturistas okay why didn't i pick that up no no you know well this is this is in 2016 when we started it and i i think that the one thing we were positive is that no one would listen to it When we started it, and I knew, I mean, am I wrong?

No, you're not wrong.

Like, we, Bowen said, you know, should we do a podcast?

I was like, yeah, that's a fun idea.

We just started talking to each other.

I remember we looked at the initial metrics like in the, you know, first couple months we had been doing the podcast and we were blown away because 60 people were listening.

Like we were like, oh, that's, we're on to something.

That's a couple people.

And that was fine for us.

And then, you know, nine and a half, I guess soon we're going to be saying 10

years later.

Wild.

Yeah.

Damn.

Become the reason for everything else.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it's different talking to 60 people, right?

I mean, because when it's just 60 people, then you're really, yeah, you're really letting go.

If you really sat and thought about how many people are actually listening when you're doing a podcast, you might

totally change the way you do it, which is, which is the death of the authenticity.

You know what I mean?

No, I don't.

But just thought of that.

Here's something.

But here's something that I do to avoid that.

I don't listen to our podcast.

Yeah.

Right.

I count on, we have a team of people.

He listens to it, but I, and I don't, I have never, I don't listen to my interviews.

I don't listen to watch my speeches.

I don't read my articles because I will start self-filtering.

I'll say, I'll think more about, am I slouching?

Did I say that?

I said too much.

I don't, and I don't want to self-edit in that way.

And if I hear myself, I'll be, I don't even like my own voice.

So

yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that's.

I don't like it either.

It's a funny thing with your own voice, yeah, right?

Because I've had a journey with it.

Now I guess I can understand what it can do.

But you know what's funny?

It was because of podcasting and even just being on a mic that I learned how to do voiceover acting.

I released an album and it taught me how to become a better singer.

All because of.

weirdly podcasting.

Like just actually learning how to talk on a mic.

Really?

It was a weird thing, but it was an education.

When you guys started, this wasn't a thing thing.

No.

So how did you know?

Let's do a podcast.

Yeah, really.

Hey, let's, hey, let's do a podcast.

It was kind of just like offered to us in this very wonderful, scrappy way.

This podcast network that's still thriving called Forever Dog.

We started with and we're with for several years.

But it was just like, hey, like.

We're just reaching out to a bunch of comedians in New York because we're a bunch of comedians in New York starting this podcast network.

Do you want to do something?

And we're like, sure.

We had all these different concepts and pitches for it.

And then Matt was very smart and thinking, let's just do the lowest lift.

And the lowest lift was the two of us keeping ourselves talking.

Like, I had ideas of like fictional, like scripted things.

And we're like, choose your own adventure.

It was like so convoluted.

And then Matt was like, no, we're going to keep it very lo-fi.

And that is kind of.

Anytime anyone asks us, like, how do you keep it going for so long?

I'm just like, it's because we picked the lowest effort possible idea.

But I think because

we've put ourselves into it and we put identity into it and there was an authenticity to what we were doing, maybe that's why people,

it's a notable podcast segment when really it's being done a lot of people.

Well, and let's, you know, this is where I want to educate my brother and even my husband who will be listening.

Culture is king.

I mean, the truth is, is like they, they razz me about my love of reality TV and the real housewives i watch it all you watch it all all of it you know love i mean yeah you know the gin

the the new york gin babies the yes

next gen nyc yeah you watch next gen nyc i watched the first two episodes i'm just like oh they're starting the babies off early oh my gosh

what are they are they actual babies they're children of housewives and like of bravo bravo leberties we call them they're really they're really like the princesses and princesses of bravo, now seeing if they're worth their salt when the cameras fixed on them.

And they've been on the screen.

It's like Austin and Aaron at seven.

You know, they were babies

being shot, and now they're in New York.

I think there's legislation that's being written about that.

No, it's, it is really tricky to watch.

Uh-huh.

It is.

Yeah.

It is.

But it's juice.

It's juice.

It's cheese.

But culture is king.

And even though you're razzed for your reality tastes, like it's still, we like to think of it as like people are like, oh, you guys balance high-low so well, but we're, it's all horizontal to us.

It's all the same.

It's all a sociological study.

I was a social major, and so were you.

I was.

Now they think that sports is better reality TV.

I was like, it's the same thing.

Pretty much.

This is what I've heard, though, about sports.

And I would love to know more about

athletics.

Yeah, in general.

You know, my dad was a varsity football and baseball coach for 40 years and a phys ed teacher.

So growing up, like I was an athlete kind of by necessity, I, in my own head at the time, because I, of course, you know, who doesn't want to impress their dad and stuff, but I credit a lot of the reason why I have a work ethic, why I know what it is to hit deadlines, why I know what it is to know how to rehearse, even as a performer, all to sports.

So it's that in terms of sports culture, like I was very, I was like a late 90s Mets super, like super freak super fan yeah but those things like that is i mean but there's drama in sports so much drama yeah you know if i listen to espn for an hour it's like watching the real housewives of atlanta you know i mean you know it's the same drama and they're yelling at each other and they don't get along you know i mean stephen a smith he's just like every other oh he'd be a post real housewife he would be right be amazing so that's why i'm like what's the difference?

It's just, you know,

it's just sociological drama.

I mean, the fact that people over

seasons of working together still can't get along.

Right.

They still have the same arguments, you know, and it's not just women, but this happens in sports too.

I find it fascinating.

It's just like, why do you keep going to dinner together?

It never ends well.

And don't ever vacation with her

ever again.

You know, she's going to, it's gonna be an unfair reason why she deserves the best room.

And why can't we figure out this room thing?

Why can't you know that room?

This is something that you just you just figure out in your 20s and your 30s as you start traveling with your friends.

But the thing that sports has that I think reality TV doesn't is like numbers.

Like what I find fascinating about sports and my unfamiliarity with it is that it is really, really something.

And it's really cool that you get to like look at stats and you get to compare that way.

That's part of storytelling, you know?

And I wish housewives had that.

What's

keep the numbers?

You know what they'll kind of do.

The number of fights.

You know,

like they'll on Instagram, they'll release the seating chart for the reunions.

So at the end of every housewife season, there's a reunion.

Oh, yeah.

Basically, it is kind of a little bit of a cast system because if you're sitting next to Andy, that kind of means you won't.

Andy Cohen, Andy Collins.

Andy Cohen's usually

reunions.

And it kind of is interesting because it's like a ranking.

You see people talking about it, like, oh, she's in the one spot.

She's in the two spot.

Like, look at her all the way in no no man's land at the end of the year.

You have a point.

Yes.

So it does kind of have that.

You know, there is something in our fandom that is wanting to quantify the way someone is doing.

Well, tell us about the culture awards.

Yes.

You guys are growing up big time.

Congratulations, buddy.

Like all on Bravo.

Okay.

Yeah.

Oh, great segue.

We have been doing this.

Fake award show

is the best way to describe it for several years now live in New york and we did lincoln center and then uh went to king's theater in brooklyn which was beautiful last year and yeah we're we're on bravo and we're on peacock the next day on august 5th and it started out as again like this low stakes bit on the podcast we're like we should throw our own award show where the categories are like the Eva Long Goury Award for tiny woman biggest impact.

Like these dumb categories.

Most amazing impact in film.

And the nominees are like, oh, one of them is Jeff Goldblum's chest in Jurassic Park.

You know what I mean?

So basically, it's just, but then we also have like record of the year.

And sometimes it's a little earnest.

So it is a really good example, I think, of what has made our podcast successful is that we just follow the fun.

Yeah.

And I really think that people could.

give themselves a gift by just saying that sentence a little bit more, just even in the day-to-day things.

It's just like, what feels good?

What feels fun.

We need it now.

Yeah.

And I think that with the culture awards, it's like, what's fun about it is, you know,

this probably won't happen, but Meryl Streep could walk out.

Yeah.

And so could Meredith Marks from Salt Lake City Housewives.

You'll look that up later.

She's a good one to know.

I'll explain it over lunch.

And there's one of the Salt Lake City.

Oh, she's from Salt Lake City.

I mean, housewives.

That's the number one spot.

Yeah.

The Salt Lake City Housewives are really the best.

Well, because you're dealing with Mormonism and a whole lot of subconscious felons.

Yeah, one of them went to jail.

There have been several

imprisonments

there was one there have been several convictions

yeah this is the one we're

city for money wondering she's in the state see what i'm saying as elizabeth holmes no yes and their best

set best

i know i know who elizabeth holmes they're doing yes

oh they're gonna

and they're buds they're gonna come out it could be dangerous

and they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna take over the world

here's the truth of it i'd watch that show i would i would watch that show and you would too i would watch that see he just doesn't know what it is i don't i really don't i really don't i i have very little bandwidth for anything outside of what i'm doing with my kids right

and so well craig also also took my my tv very carefully he also has a very limited cringe meter i see i do she's right about that and you gotta be able to to hang in the cringe

because most of the time you're watching and you're like, I can't believe it.

To give you an example, everybody in our generation loved this show, Seinfeld.

Of course.

George.

George, he's the cringe of George.

And of course.

I love the guy who wrote the show.

I love Larry David, but then watching the show is just like, I can't stand the show.

You have to get through the office.

The office is off.

The office is funny to me.

But that's so good.

there's cringe michael side of cringe cringe see he doesn't make me cringe like george made me cringe good well that's good writing that should be character that's the whole point yeah but you should care about the cringe thing if it's too cringy you know i'm a i'm a turner classic movie guy yeah i gotta

i i gotta have a good ending

i gotta work out yeah leading to tharsis yes positively yeah i can't walk away being more anxious than i was growing in you should go there's a turner classic movies cruise i heard yeah but i hate cruise you You heard about the cruise movie.

I'm with you, that cancels out.

I heard about cruises.

I've heard about it.

It sounds like it would be wonderful, and they have some of the stars and stuff on there.

I would love it.

They said get it off the boat.

Just get off the boat and do it in a...

I think there might be a Bravo cruise.

Well, there should be.

You know, there's Bravo Con.

That I know.

I've been.

Yes.

It is.

Wild.

It must be madness.

The people.

I mean, it's like the Beatles show up when anyone walks in the room.

Well, the franchises are huge.

They're like, how many?

I mean, now they're like...

Well, now there's new ones that you're about to do.

Rhode Island.

Yes.

There's the Housewives of Rhode Island.

There's going to be.

I heard it.

We used to live there, so I might, I'm, that might be, you might know some people.

That's even an intro point.

Yeah,

honestly, we have a friend who does know a couple people on the cast because I guess it's that small.

He was like, he was like, I went to high school with that girl.

I was like, that's so funny.

What's she going to do?

Dude, it's Rhode Island.

That's Rhode Island.

Yeah, yeah.

This segment is brought to you by Indeed.

Hey, Mish, how has being organized through your career helped you get your work done?

Oh my gosh.

Organization for me has been everything.

I think better when I have a clean desk, when I have a clear plate, you know, when things are in order.

Clutter

doesn't help free my mind.

And when did you learn that?

When did you realize that that was necessary?

Probably, if you think about it, I was kind of always like that.

I do.

That's why I asked.

Because I remember when we had our desks set up in our room, mine was always a mess with books and papers.

And I would just set things down.

And no matter what time of day it was, your desk was always organized.

Your pencils were in the box, erasers were in something over here.

Papers were, you had your loose leaf paper over here.

You had your spiral notebooks over there.

And I just remember you always being organized.

Yeah.

And I think it perhaps was just a personal trait of mine, or it came out of the realization that disorganization slows you down.

If

I have to spend 30 minutes looking for the pad of paper before I can sit down and be creative, that messes with my process.

What about you?

Because you eventually learned how to become organized, even though I am still becoming organized because I really didn't need to be organized until I got to college.

And when you have, and it was the result of having so much free time because you have way more free time in college than you did in high school, which a lot of college students don't understand.

They don't take advantage of.

And that's when you need to be organized.

And it was at that point after I had failed the first semester at being a decent student in college that I had to get organized.

And

once I realized that and then started to execute that, my whole academic and intellectual experience just changed and it made everything easier.

And I just wish I had was able to do it as early as you did.

What I try to tell young people is that organizational skills are a muscle.

Build that muscle early, practice it.

And when you're our age, it becomes second nature.

It sure does.

It sure does.

But whether being organized is a skill you have or not, Indeed can help connect the skills you have to new opportunities.

Indeed's mission is to empower everyone to leverage their skills for better work.

When people feel confident in their skills and open to change, the world truly can work better.

Well, I want just to flip the script a little bit because I am, given who you two are, I am curious to know what were little Bowen and Matt like?

What were you guys like

as kids?

Because I don't know whether do we have a nerdy kid and a jockey kid?

I don't know.

I think that's a pretty, that's a pretty decent sort of assessment, refraction of us.

Like, but I just remember starting out.

pretty precocious.

And then I think

being a boy, like you start to like rein it in a bit and you just try to like start to fit in.

So I was, I was, I was, I was always a nerd and I feel like I tried to hide it and mask it for a couple of years in middle school.

And then I just kind of let it all out in high school.

Like, I can't hold it in any longer.

He did some theater in high school.

And I remember when I was in high school, I was all sports all the time.

I was a very serious track athlete.

I played baseball.

for several years.

I never really got into football.

And it's actually interesting.

My dad was such a football guy.

And years later, I asked him, why didn't you ever throw the football around with me and he was like i mean if i'm honest with you i didn't think kids really needed to be playing yeah and it was because and then every and then years later now we hear so much about what goes our dad was the same way with him he always was a we were both sporty kids right um there just wasn't much for me with the beginning of title ix but you did she did everything i did yeah in our backyard but i did there wasn't organized sports that's so interesting i remember one of my formative um memories was my dad and I, we didn't have a boys' winner track team for whatever reason.

And I was so serious about it that we actually got one going.

And I just found out it's still going.

And I think they even won like league championships.

So that was one thing I can look back on and be like, that was like a positive impact.

But in high school, all I wanted was to audition for the swing choir and be in the plays.

I remember

they have no idea what I would give as Conrad Birdie.

But I was too positive.

Yeah.

And so I remember being a happy kid.

And I had amazing parents.

And I grew up on Long Island and I had a very happy day to day and that I was given so much.

But there was a pit, I believe, in probably both of our stomachs, because being closeted at that time was extremely hard.

I remember like, this is when, you know, the FAG slur was being used like on the radio.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Like, it's, and so it can talk about comedy.

I mean, it was at the, you know, that was just common.

Homophobia was comedy at that time.

That was comedy.

Absolutely.

And so it's kind of like, I think we both know a little bit of what it's like to feel like

who I am is something that it's a question of whether I'm going to be embraced for it.

Absolutely.

And so anything that could reveal something about who you really are

was, it felt dangerous.

That was there.

Yeah.

But I think about constantly, like, would we have been friends when we were 11?

I was just thinking about

it.

I think we saw it happen.

Now you're getting into my area

of inquiry because I heard that you guys were friends in college, but you weren't friends first.

I mean, help us understand how you guys got to be close.

Well, college is college is interesting.

I feel like you guys, you guys keep up with your college friends, right?

Like,

a couple of them.

I started out liking them.

So, oh, you know, like, it wasn't dislike.

I think what it was was it was a situation where I remember the first time I ever saw Bowen.

I have this thing where it's bizarre, but the people that end up being meaningful in my life, I remember the first time I saw them.

It's, it's weird.

And him, I remember coming around an elevator bank and we were going to see a comedy show.

I remember the elevator.

And I saw him and he looked back at me.

And I just remember it was this moment of like, that's a person to me.

Yeah.

And

I think maybe because of the self-consciousness at that time, we were 18 years old in college and still both closeted.

It's, it's a little nerve-wracking, any social interaction at that time.

And so we went to go see a comedy show at our school, which was our school's comedy show, our sketch comedy show.

And I remember looking up on stage and being like, I think I'll try to do that.

And it will make me take a, it will encourage me to take a step towards who I am.

And he had already been in the improv group at the school.

So there was Danger Box Improv, and Bowen was the one gay in that group.

And then I got into that.

And were you out?

I was.

So I was out in high school and then I was back in the closet right before college through all this like mess.

And then, so then, yeah, at the time of meeting Matt, I think we were both synced up in our timeline.

We were both newly comfortable saying we were gay.

And then we were in these comedy groups in which we were the only person that identified that way.

And so they, their way of sort of, I think maybe breaking ice was like, well, be best friends.

You know, do we like perform for us?

And we would ult, we would, we would often be put in situations where it almost felt like tokenized because we were like, like, like sort of like, oh, like, these are our gay ones.

And not with any malintent on their part, but it just didn't feel like that would be the reason why we'd definitely be best friends.

Until there was this like, there was this like rationale on a collective level for from everyone around us that was like, you guys would get along great.

It's like, it's like when your parents like set you up with someone, you're like, oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

You're like, I'm being alone.

Like, it's not going to be just because you think.

But then quickly it was like,

you were right.

We both were off book on all the same pop music.

Like it was, I remember we'd have like parties after the sketch comedy and improv shows, and we would just tear it up to like Super Bass by Nicki Minaj.

We would tear it up to like any Taylor Swift song still to this day.

I mean, we just we speak a very similar language.

I feel like the bit that I always say is like, I feel like he's my twin that was born in a different part of the world on a different day.

And Bowen, you grew up in

in Brisbane.

I was born in Brisbane.

I was born in six months.

Okay.

Basically, when I was clear to fly, we moved to Ontario,

then Montreal, then Colorado, and then

Colorado to New York.

And I've been in New York since.

So high school was where Colorado was Colorado.

Aurora.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that was a very

interesting place to grow up where

like

it felt like you were just

informed by like a very, I don't know, like, again, I keep saying this word, horizontal way of like being with people.

It was like great public schools in Colorado where I'm from,

uh, just felt like I was given like the latitude to like figure stuff out about myself that then would like make way for like finding out who I really was.

And then by the time I got to college, it was like the groundwork had been laid.

What were your parents like, each of you?

Mine are

really hardworking

immigrants who sacrificed everything.

And I remember coming to the States for the first time in 1999.

And we met with our immigration lawyer.

And we went through the process of getting our green cards.

And it was just back then, it felt like so much bureaucracy.

Yeah.

And

they were always people who reminded you in the gentlest way.

They sacrificed a lot, but they were never like, this is us putting pressure on you.

Like they,

I think, again, laid it all out for us just in the way that we grew up in Colorado.

It was like,

here's like,

here's like an open horizon of what you can do in life.

And, and cause, cause they would vocalize things like, well, we know you like to perform, but you know, it's, it's really hard and there's not a lot of stability.

And especially if you're Asian and all these things.

And I, I internalized that as a way of saying, oh, that's off limits.

Let me go and be pre-med in Colorado.

And that's what I did.

And so I think, I think there were tacit ways in which they were like.

Trying to encourage me to find myself, but hedging a little bit because they were just trying to be protective.

Right.

Well, and also, you know, you love your kids.

You want to to make sure they can eat.

Exactly.

You know,

and the world is mean and ugly out there.

So just in case,

just have something in your back pocket.

Totally.

But it's, you know, it's fortunate to have parents.

Was it the same way for you, Matt, that you had parents that were kind of encouraging whatever you wanted to do?

Or did you feel like there was an expectation?

I think once I became

more of an adult and I got to college, I'll never forget.

So I started NYU and I actually was, I was full jock at that time.

I was on the track team and I got through a week of it.

And I remember realizing I was not, because I had done an amazing, I can, I'm a code switching icon.

Like

I was prom king in high school, which was a fight because like I am, you know, pretty gay.

And so like, I was like, I was, you got to watch the show overcompensating.

Yeah, yeah.

He really taps into just how much drag you do to try to, and that was me.

Yeah.

And so I remember I,

the phone, I remember I was in my dorm room and the phone was shaking in my hand because I was going to call my dad and say I was quitting the track team.

And, but don't worry because I'm going to do something else.

You know, I'm going to try to, I want to go punch a wall.

Yeah, yeah, right.

I'm going to eat fire.

See,

my parents are lovely.

My dad is like the life of the party.

My mom is truly the most joyful, effervescent person.

She is a star.

And they've never

on that phone call were like, we're disappointed.

My dad was like, you have to do what's going to make you happy.

Like you're 18 years old.

And you know what I mean?

Like you're living in New York City.

And so from that point on, and really never did they ever say, well, did you ever think what to do if it didn't work out?

Even throughout my 20s when I was waiting tables six days a week,

you know, they never were like, hey, maybe the sketch comedy thing should be called into question with a 27-year-old man.

You know what I mean?

Maybe they should have.

Yeah.

But they never did.

And that's not to say that I didn't have like, you know, the strife that comes with any like

parental child relationship, especially when there's a lot of inner strife and everyone's figuring out how to relate to each other.

But in terms of the way that they raised me, I'm the luckiest.

The luckiest.

It is amazing how kids put a lot on themselves because they're, they think they know what their parents are are thinking.

Both Craig and I were kind of like that because we came from a working class background and we made a lot of choices assuming that our parents couldn't afford something or would say no to something.

I remember.

Or we didn't want to disappoint them

because they're such wonderful people, of course.

And I don't, you know,

I cut you off, but I wanted to get back to your parents.

When they, when, when you came out to them, what was their reaction?

And how did they sort of help you through that or not help you through it?

Because they sound like wonderful people.

No, it's we're sitting here and it's like a lot of this conversation is reminding me how different we are.

Like,

yes, like, I feel like we have such an energetic connection and like peas in the pod, but we have such different

background numbers.

I love that.

Yeah, yeah.

But anyway, sorry.

So I I came out.

Well, I didn't even come out in high school, but in high school, you know, there were, there were revelations.

And so then my parents sat me down.

They were like, you know, where we come from in mainland China, like this doesn't happen.

And so this is

a problem to us.

And we are sort of oriented as problem solvers.

So we're going to figure out how to solve this.

And then,

you know, they would, they found some therapists, basically.

And so that we would drive down.

I would, it was this ultimatum that I could go to school at NYU

where my sister was and that she would sort of watch over me or I could stay in state and stay with them.

And I was like, I'd rather go to NYU.

And then little did they know it's the gayest school in the country.

But the ultimatum was like, I would like, you know, I would go with my dad to these conversion therapy sessions over the summer before I started college.

And you know what?

Like you're on this fault line in your life and you go

good as good a time as any.

Maybe they know something i don't right truly right i have this i was you trust your parents yeah you know that they're not trying to hurt you they're trying to figure it out of course yeah i'm this

i'm this like 17 year old kid who had never seen his dad cry before but he was coming home every day from school to his parents sobbing over dinner every night.

I was like, I have to do something.

I have to like acquiesce in this way in order to like keep the family together.

Yeah.

Disappoint.

To not disappoint.

Yeah.

Yeah.

To like, to like not protect them from their own emotions.

Truly.

Right.

And by the way, like,

we can just fast forward to now where like, you know, there was just this moment back in the closet and then it was meeting people like Matt that sort of brought me out of it.

And then it was a lot of tumult in terms of like

trying to come on like common ground with them.

And it took many years.

But like now it's, I mean, I mean, it gives me a lot of hope and it gives me this model for how to like

really let things ferment over time.

And not all hope is lost with these things.

Like, I never expected to be in this place with them now.

Where's they're asking about my personal life?

They're truly genuinely curious.

They're proud.

Like, last year at the Culture Awards, we like, they came.

We were dressed in like sequin chaps and like cowboy hats.

I'm saying they're two most wanted, Devian and Miley.

But like,

couldn't have been Gary.

And then I'd turn around and like full cheek showing.

And then apparently my mom was like cheering, clapping in the audience.

And I'm like,

I couldn't, I still don't even totally believe that image because I'm like, that would have never, that does not square with the, the sort of internalized sort of thing that I have with them from childhood, from being a teenager.

And now it's just like, look at, look at all this.

Yeah.

Well, look at, yeah.

This is what you want to tell young kids,

you know, when they feel hopeless over any issue, right?

Life is long and the trajectory is unpredictable.

Yeah.

You know, and sometimes you just want to, you know, allow allow it to breathe a little bit before you decide that life isn't worth living or that nothing will change because people, you know, people,

if you give folks grace, you know,

sometimes it comes back in return.

I think there was a mutual exchange of that grace between me and my parents.

That's beautiful.

That really is.

Thank you.

And you're going to visit extended family.

You're taking

a special trip.

Yes, I'm taking a special trip.

To the consulate first.

To the consulate.

I have to go to the consulate first.

Yeah.

That's like.

But yeah.

We want to make sure you get back.

Make sure I get back.

Well, yeah.

I'm excited.

I haven't been back in like nine years.

So this isn't your first visit to.

We would go all the time growing up.

Okay.

And then once college started, it was a little less frequent because everyone had busier lives as we were growing older.

And

it's important that I go back.

And it's funny, like a lot of my extended family, it's just my parents and my sister and I in the States.

Everyone else is back in China.

Okay.

And,

but I'll have aunts and uncles and cousins be like.

Oh my gosh, we saw this thing that Bowen did and it made it, it made its way here, which is great, which is amazing.

Then it makes me go, well, I never came out to them and clearly like I've done enough things.

My hit rate in terms of like stuff that I put out is like clearly telegraphs that like I am who I am.

And so I'm working with this tutor now to like just refresh my Mandarin, but also to give me the literal vocabulary to have conversations with them where I'm like, so this is who I am.

This is what my life is like.

This is my job.

This is my personal.

The whole vocabulary.

The actual vocabulary.

Wow.

Yeah.

I am a gay man.

SNL is a live show on Saturday.

These are the things about me that I have to like learn in terms of the vocabulary to communicate communicate these things.

Have your parents had those conversations with their relatives back home?

Or are they?

I think they want to leave it up to me.

Uh-huh.

Which I, which I totally, which I appreciate, actually.

Yeah.

When's the trip going to happen?

It's going to be about a month and a half.

All right.

Where I am going to send so much, or we're going to send so much energy your way.

It's going to be great.

I receive it.

And if it's not, just come on back.

Exactly.

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So my sister has always is always talking about I need a sort of culture boost.

Yes.

Because

I'm not cool, right?

I I have kids.

You were so cool.

I have kids, but I'm cool.

So

I would like to know, since you started your podcast, what are some of the changes in culture you've seen, both positive and negative?

Ooh, wow.

Great question.

I think there's this debate that keeps going on.

And I don't even know what the answer is or what the right side is, but like, is there still a monoculture or is it completely like fragmented?

Is no one watching the same thing?

What does that do to us?

I think people still are watching the same things.

There's just a bajillion options.

And that's what makes it feel so disjointed.

Yeah.

I mean, I think there's a few stories like that you can really look at since we started the podcast in March of 2016, just to note that.

And so in the in those years since it's like you've really seen some wild narratives and it's, it's, it's kind of

like I always boil it down to like they're streaming.

The way that movies and TV have sort of collapsed has been really interesting.

But, you know, so when people are like, why did they split it up into two movies?

It's like, because they can and they should.

Because it's going to save the film industry.

Exactly.

Like, you know what I mean?

If you have something like that, that's a unicorn.

Yeah.

You got to chop up that.

Right, right.

But I just wish that the effort was

some of the, some more of the trying was a bit more experimental.

Yeah.

You You know, I mean, I just feel like the industry is a little bit too precious with IP.

100%.

And it's like, I think one thing that will get people out are just new concepts.

Yeah.

Just popping up.

Exactly.

But you do get those moments where it's where they're

proven right.

That we want to see original stuff.

That's, and, but the industry, the

suits have to kind of believe it.

It's like, guess what?

Like, you don't have to spend $150 million.

People just want to see some good new content, a different way of seeing the world, a different way of approaching film.

And I sat next to a film executive at a dinner and had a full-blown argument about this.

Same thing.

You know, it's like, you know.

there is room.

People will go see a wonderful $30 million film.

And we've seen it.

Anora, you know, this Oscars, we saw it all.

But for some reason, there's, they're risk averse to try this new thing.

And it's like, don't be so risk-averse because this is a cheaper way.

You know, it's like you have less to lose instead of putting all your eggs in this 100-200 million dollar film.

You know, it seems riskier.

And also, you know, I was watching.

Have you watched the studio?

Yeah, so this is great.

It's a great show.

What's Seth Rosen?

It's Seth Rosen.

He has Seth on Seth with his wife.

You've got to watch the studio.

So this is this is a great show.

And I remember like one of the things that they were talking about is the fact that like a cut of a movie was coming in at two hours, 45 minutes, or something, and it was cutting down the show times.

And I'm like, okay, so isn't this a no-brainer?

Yeah, if you make shorter movies, which everyone is craving, and you want the money, add the show times.

Yeah, just make the movies a little shorter.

That's right.

So that's one thing I can't.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because it feels like all the superhero movies are also two hours and 45 minutes.

Right.

And I'm like, what is it a lot here?

Yeah, yeah.

What's the appeal?

Well, we've got two best friends on this show.

And we've got a question about friendship and finding people.

And before we get into it, one of the things I did want to ask, because I find this in our friend groups, do you guys have the same friend group?

Do you have separate friend groups?

And have, do, if so, do your groups merge?

I think the Venn diagram is a circle for our friend groups.

And it makes it so merged.

I know.

When he makes a new friend, and then I, because it's kind of like when any good friend of yours is a good friend of mine.

Yeah.

And then likewise, like I recently, like, I have two like very close friends.

One of them is actually my ex-boyfriend, who's now my best friend.

Um, and

Bowen takes him as his date to things now.

And it makes me so happy.

Shout out to Jared.

Hey, Jared.

But yeah, that's, that's like a really nice, happy thing.

And that's also how you know, like.

They're your people.

They're your people.

Yeah.

I'm glad that you guys debunked No New Friends recently on this podcast because I've never told because like that came from this one and it's very for the longest time like that was like a culture shifting crowd you have to like take some credit for that because like people are saying that really oh yeah oh good have you heard that note song no broke boys yeah no broke boys no new friends yeah anyway um she

sing that in front of you

you're on the burn nowadays i'm just glad we know the same song

we make a culture catch up you're good

no way um but like i i i don't I don't think it's no new friends.

I think it's like, we just have to be a little bit more,

I don't know, we just have to put our feelers out a little bit more selectively, or not even selectively.

It's just about time.

It's about how you choose to spend your time.

Yeah.

It's like, it's that, like,

I think you said something one time, like, that I tried to adopt, which is like, if I'm going on a date with you, it's a big deal.

It just disturbs my time.

Yeah.

Because you don't have a lot of time.

Also, time is precious.

You realize even more and more, like, people get busy and stuff like that.

So that is,

it's, it's a, um,

it's a kind of expression of love.

Like, I'm giving this time to you.

And so when you invite someone in to that, like that, that's real care.

And that's, that's what, you know, that's intense.

Yeah.

That's intured.

Yeah.

That's a time in your life with someone.

Well, in order to get there

where you even have the option of defining your time, you've got to build your people.

You've got to find your people.

And I think

our listener this week has a question about how to do that.

And I think this is a good group

that can help break it down.

And we didn't plan this, but it's Alicia from Brisbane.

Wow.

I love it.

How about that?

Fellow Brisbane.

How about that?

It just shows.

We've got listeners all over the world.

Pretty cool.

Wow.

Let's hear the question.

Dear Michelle and Craig, I'm about to turn 30 and I'm not handling it as gracefully as I'd hoped.

I'm not where I thought I'd be in life and I feel like I'm starting this new chapter from scratch.

I've been through a lot, reconciling with generational trauma and navigating hardships that, while painful, have shaped me into someone that I'm really proud of.

These lessons have been meaningful, but most of them I've had to learn on my own and through a lot of trial and error.

For many years, my picker was off in both friendships and relationships, and I had to learn the hard way about how I deserve to be treated and how to choose people who are healthy, safe, and real.

I've picked up a few beautiful friendships along the way but I've also made a lot of painful decisions in the process.

Recently, I went through a big breakup with someone that I deeply loved and cared for, and now I find myself feeling lonely and without a strong sense of community.

The friends that I'd hoped would support me, people who I've poured a lot into, have been caught up in their own lives even though I've shared how much I've been struggling.

This has left me doubting my own self-worth and if I've actually found my tribe.

So my question is, how should I navigate these friendships?

And how do I begin a new chapter in life, building identity and community without letting past values and unhealthy beliefs get in the way?

Alicia, 30.

She's your age.

You guys are babies, first of all.

That's the one thing you have to remember.

I had to, when you know, just, it's like, you guys are so young.

We are

squarely in our middle age.

Oh, we are.

No, don't do that, please.

I mean, you know, but we were talking about this question and um i just remember approaching 30 is is tough because it feels like if i guess any 20 30 40 50 20 milestones yeah yeah and i

60 yeah yeah mine

but one thing is i i do feel like it does and people say this like it does get better as you get older because you because it's like it's we were saying it's like when you're in high school they're like these four years are going to be four years you remember and then you get to college and it's like like i don't remember my school and then you get you're in college and you're like these are the formative years because when you're growing up you think oh college they're adults then you're in your 20s and you're like college wasn't you know what i'm doing like it's so rare and then you get so what i would say to someone approaching 30 is it's like it's like you're buck it's like you're still becoming you're like you're you're always going to you know

it's not about thinking oh i've reached 30 because i was like this i had i was approaching 30 and i thought that i had failed you know what i mean Even as things were getting better.

And I also think sometimes it's the compare despair.

You know what I mean?

That's right.

I happen to be best friends with someone who is, you know, like, I think one of the defining comedy stars of my generation.

And that can be hard, even as someone who is successful.

Because sometimes it's like.

you think to yourself, like, it's never going to be enough.

But then you take that checkpoint off and you realize everything's not so bad.

Not to say that this person isn't experiencing what they're experiencing yeah but

it's it's about framing it not like i haven't done it it's just i haven't done it yet or maybe i don't even know what it is that i am meant to do it's just a it's a like a gratitude in the present i think also i've had about seven personality transplants in my life.

Like it's probably about like 30.

It's like you're going through like the fourth version of yourself or something.

I'm just throwing numbers out there, but like, it's,

you know,

what I will say is Alicia seems to

be hitting this wall with like her friends that she seems to have confided in.

And she doesn't seem to be feeling that in return or

doesn't feel that support.

And I would say like that is probably

a great sort of sign.

It's like, well, then that's all the information you need, right?

It's like, well, then

don't like put your shields up.

up, like, don't

like pull back, but just know that you can't pour so much of yourself into these specific people.

Yeah, yeah, you know, that's it.

That's interesting.

You guys came at it from that way.

What I'm

thinking about this,

and I'm thinking about it as a former athlete, and a coach, and a father.

And as I've gotten older,

the one thing that I wish I had done when I was younger was enjoy the process

more than the results.

Absolutely.

And

if I would say anything to Alicia, it would be, hey,

enjoy your process of your change, of what's going on, and it will make you a more fulfilled person.

And you are going to be more attractive and you're going to feel a self-worth and you're going to feel good about yourself.

And that's going to make people, that's going to make people be drawn to you.

totally um and my mom would say why do you why would you care if people want to be drawn to you but you do because you want some friends and you want to be in relationships and i just think that

i didn't start enjoying the process until i was well past my 30s

i was i was like in my i was like grown and with kids where i was like this is what I'm supposed to be enjoying, not what I'm aiming for.

I'll get what I get.

Sure.

But this process, I got to enjoy the birthday parties and I got to enjoy the, you have to enjoy the vacations and things like that.

So that's how I came at it.

Well, one thing I

always want young people, when I talk to them to

avoid is

being so afraid of of failing and living life that they don't even try.

And when I think about my girls,

you know, in this no new friends concept and trying to contradict that, it's like, you can't live life afraid of making friends because something could go wrong.

That like that just, that makes life not worth living.

It's just, you know, you can't live in the fear of somebody hurting you because you lose out on.

all the possibilities of wonderful people.

You shut yourself off and you don't let anybody in.

I would want Alicia to understand that.

You have to practice making friends, which means you're going to have to make some mistakes.

Because guess what?

Having friends, having people is worth the risk.

Yes.

It is, it is, it is way worth the risk.

I would take a million, you hurt my feelings, you disappointed me to find the one gem

that you will find if you keep really building and knowing yourself.

You know, those gems of friendships, to me, it's worth the hurt and disappointment.

People will hurt and disappoint you.

Your own family will hurt and disappoint you.

There are times when you two hurt and disappointed each other.

That's a part of the process.

But isn't it worth

that risk?

Whenever you guys had your riff,

you know, whatever it was.

Yeah.

There was a time we didn't speak for six months and still did the podcast.

I still did the podcast.

And it's like, it's, I mean,

it's hard.

And I'm like, there are things that.

But imagine if you walked away

from the things.

You have to decide what's worth fighting for.

So it sounds like this person has also gone through a pretty brutal breakup.

And

I get that.

I mean, like, I had something once that knocked me down for like a couple of years.

And it wasn't, it didn't seem like it made sense in terms of like how long the relationship had been, how significant it was to other people in my life.

But.

And I think we're always stronger as a result of we've had some pretty large fights.

And like, i do think

fun

fun like i've i've never shouted louder in a way that i'm terrible i can't believe my voice can do that

yeah i would i there's no one better that i would shout at than you no because i can tell i can go toe to toe

like it's bad it's like a feral

we have one blowout every like two years i know it's not like you look forward to them you know what i mean it's like

i hate it in fact it usually is within the same conversation that we're then crying like why i love who he was

like like so it's just but like

that is a part of dynamics between human beings yeah i think i mean something you two have talked about is like unlearning and this is 30 is about that age where you unlearn like this effort result dichotomy that like either our parents have taught us or like society has internalized in us like oh if i do this thing if i put in this amount of ever effort then i should expect this result and so maybe this maybe alicia feels disappointed that she's put in effort with in her relationships, in her friendships, and the result she's gotten back is not the one that she wanted.

But maybe it's reframing it in terms of those results just being part of the larger, longer effort.

The effort is just like, oh, I tried my hand at this loving relationship that did not end well.

It not ending well is not the result necessarily.

That's right.

It's couching the effort.

Cloud how people make you feel on an instinct level.

Like, Like when I'm around Bowen, he makes me feel smart.

He makes me feel funny.

He makes me feel like a powerful powerful part of something, like a valuable part of something.

And it's always been like that.

When I think about the way that, for example, one of my exes made me feel, it was anxious, it was,

you know, et cetera.

It's like, and then I think of some friends, you know, like that go through seasons, you know, at this point, that's right.

You know, maybe there's someone in my life who's making me feel nervous.

Yeah.

Or who's making me feel.

Maybe there's some friend in your life that's making you feel a little hard in your life.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

It's like clock the way that that people.

People are making you feel.

I like that.

Tell us more.

Let's tell details.

We're sorry for you guys.

But like, but like,

you tell yourself a lot.

Yeah.

And like, you know, like you know you.

And so when you're around someone and they make you feel a certain way, listen to that.

Yeah.

And that's also probably what Alicia is struggling with, because when you're turning 30, you're just beginning to know you.

Oh, you're right.

I mean, like you both have said, you're, it's a long journey of self-discovery.

Right.

And so she may feel a little more uncertain about making mistakes.

And maybe it's me and I don't trust my picking meter.

And it's like, yeah, at 30, you're still learning your picking meter.

There is no right or wrong way.

And you, you don't develop wisdom any faster, you know, you don't have wisdom at 30.

No.

You know, it's just like I tried it to, I had a friend who's dating a younger person and he claimed that she's wise and she's 30.

And I'm like, she's not.

Yeah.

You know, there, there's a certain amount of knowledge that you have.

I'm not saying that.

people aren't smart,

but wisdom is accumulated over time.

There's no shortcut to it because you have to have experiences and successes and failures.

And you have to look over yourself over a period of time to say, What did I learn about me?

Yeah, you know, and I don't want Alicia to start questioning herself at 30.

You know, it's like your picker's not off.

You made you, you, you didn't, you didn't have the result you wanted a couple of times.

And those experiences are going to help you define who you are.

You know, you'll know now what you like in friendships, what you, what, what's missing, you know, what do seasons look like for you.

Um, all of that comes with time so by the time you're 40 you'll have more discernment because you'll know yourself a little bit more this might be a hot take but you shouldn't need a premium subscription to get a premium job you shouldn't have to network to find work and most importantly you shouldn't have to scroll through endless amounts of humble brags just to see who's hiring that's what's so great about an independent it lets you find better work based on what you know, not who you know.

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helixleep.com slash imo so some of this i just want alicia to be patient with herself you know stay in the game yeah you know don't back away don't be afraid of people and friendships or hurt because that's just part of it and there's something really beautiful on the other side of that hurt we if you just keep because you will heal from it yes you know even the worst fights that you have we've had bad fights you get over it you move on you learn from it not had any bad fights well no we don't we don't we don't

I mean, like, sometimes it's like maybe that was them time.

Because he doesn't fight.

Right.

I don't fight.

I don't fight.

But we, we, we, our, our biggest fight was a

big fight.

I've read about the big fight.

Yes.

You don't remember the big fight.

I remember the big fight.

I remember the big fight.

Yeah, the fight.

The fight felt legitimate, by the way.

It felt legitimate.

It was, it was, I think it was right after your father passed away.

Yeah.

And I don't win the first.

I don't remember it.

I don't remember.

You do.

I remember it.

Yeah.

But it was, it was a hurt fight.

Yeah.

We were just hurt.

I'm thinking about our big fights too.

It was always interior.

Like he was feeling depressed from being like run down in many different ways.

And I had just been gone through a breakup.

And we collided in this.

It was insane.

It was so stupid.

I had gone to a Chapel Roan concert.

This is before Chapel Roan was huge.

And I was like, you got to listen to Chapel Roan.

And he was ignoring me and posted an Instagram story.

And so I was like,

Are ignoring me?

And like, I was, and it was, it was, and then he was like, I'm depressed.

And I was, and I shouted the words in my trailer while we were shooting Wicked.

He didn't even know who she was.

I did not want to know who he would have responded.

He's like, maybe I'm wrong.

So you guys,

you guys sound like my two Austin.

And you sound like how brothers fight.

And we're brothers.

We're brotherly that way.

But it is.

You guys are brothers.

We have our sensitivities.

I'm really sensitive to being ignored.

So like when I feel like,

when I feel like I'm being ignored, that sets me off.

And I'm sure you have a year or two.

Oh, absolutely.

Like, it's just, but you know.

And it's like,

because it is like family, that's what I mean is it's like, sometimes it's not like.

It doesn't always feel like, oh, it was a big fight because this crazy thing happened.

I wish you didn't text me back about Chapel Rowan and posted a photo with Ariana Maddox at an event.

Literally.

It's like, I think I was an evil person.

Evil person.

It's like, it's like how when you're with family, like you can crap your pants and it's okay.

They'll take you home and they'll fix you up.

And now it's only fun.

And that's what Alicia has to learn, right?

Because the thing you learn about yourself at 35, 36, 37 is that you have that sensitivity.

You know, it takes you a minute of practice to say, okay, that yelling wasn't about him.

It was about me.

And that, that's like a mid-30s, the end of the 30s realization, right?

I mean, it takes you a second to start really owning your own stuff.

Yeah.

Right.

So maybe some of these fights that Alicia had were her fault.

Maybe she does need to take a step back and maybe she did something wrong.

Accountability.

We just had to have some accountability.

And the older I get, the more accountable I become, you know, because I, you know, I know when it's my fault now, really, and I can't pretend like it was, you hurt me.

And it's like, no, I will, you know, I was feeling hurt.

I'm depressed right now.

I took that out.

We had that argument because I took something out on you.

And it takes years and years of practice of connecting with people that you love and care about before you understand.

who's in the right, who's in the wrong, what was your part.

It takes time.

Yeah.

You know, so I want young people to have the patience to hang in there with a bunch of things, with friendships, with relationships, with careers.

You know, it is not this tick-tock instantaneous

feedback, which is we're now that used to.

Because I do think that the way that intention spans, like, oh, this person isn't my, isn't getting it right away.

I'm going to move on.

Because I do think that bleeds in from the way the stimulus is.

That's so great, Matt, because it makes me think about, you know, people get stuck in the way they made friends when they were a teenager.

And my sister is good at making new, is discerning her new friendships better than I am.

And that's the,

I want you to share some of your advice for Alicia.

She's sort of coming out of her 20s and going into her 30s.

How should she go about making new friends here?

Making new friends is a risky proposition.

So it's not comfortable, right?

You have to become uncomfortable because sometimes you have to step out of yourself and go and meet somebody, right?

It's a risk, you know, you have to put yourself out, right?

And we're living in a culture where nobody has to put themselves out.

Everybody's getting accustomed to living a life on a phone, very internal.

You know, COVID just exacerbated that.

So what I would tell Alicia is that making friends requires you to take a risk, you know, and it requires you to be engaged in the world.

So

you are not going to make new friends sitting on your phone, in your computer, in your house.

No one's going to knock on your door.

Tinder isn't, you don't, we don't still don't have friendship Tinder.

No, right?

No.

People, that's, and it's funny you bring that up because I really do feel like, so we had had the podcast from 2016 on and then 2020 happened and it was COVID.

And

after that, something did change with our like listener community.

They reached out and they were saying how lonely they were and what a comfort it was.

And then you start to see them them connect because they have the same interest, which maybe is the podcast or things that we talk about.

And I think that ultimately that is what we are most proud of

is the fact that

it is something that brings people together that we created.

That's what the awards are.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, we look out and like we've done the awards for a few years.

Sometimes I do go online and I'll look at like our Reddit page and they'll be making plans to meet up.

Yeah.

Like loneliness may be a unifier.

There may be something from that that we can take power in.

Just like expressing, I'm solo right now.

I'm flying solo to this thing.

Would anyone want to link up?

You know what I mean?

And usually you will not be disappointed.

You know,

for Alicia, it's worth the risk.

So, you know,

I'd say, you know,

take a chance, be bold.

You know, don't lean back from this experience.

Don't let these hurts make you small in terms of your desire to be a part of a group, but it will take work.

It does take effort.

It is not instantaneous.

It requires a plan and it requires you executing against the plan.

And you're going to get hurt.

And it's okay.

You will heal from it

and you will grow from it and it'll be all right.

And you're in Brisbane, so go to the koala sanctuary.

Okay.

All right.

Going with some real.

Just don't touch them.

Just don't touch them.

I felt koalas.

I have had the pleasure.

Oh, no, no, no, actually, no, I'm wrong.

It wasn't koalas.

It was pandas.

Oh, even better.

That's even.

Oh, I'm sorry.

We should get some real takeaways.

All right, Alicia, before we

digress.

We digress for a second.

Try a safari.

Yeah.

It's a way to make friends.

This would be huge for you.

Yeah.

I was going to start with your

just be open.

It's hard, but be open and honest and

vulnerable.

Okay.

And any takeaways you guys want to give summations.

I think Craig and I are on the same level, which is like the process, which is, I like that.

As it ties to mine, it's like the result is part of the effort.

And

it is just being like put into this larger Russian nesting doll of effort.

You know, the result will be good in the end.

Yeah.

You're not doing it wrong because there's no doing it right.

I like that as well.

There's no one way to live a life, and it's you know, you're not getting it wrong, you're not making mistakes.

I like that point.

And I would just say, Alicia, please cut yourself some slack.

You're only 30, girl.

Yeah, you gotta hit it.

Sounds high.

Yeah,

regroup and relax and enjoy being in Brisbane.

So, yeah, you guys, this has been terrific.

And thank you so much.

In love with you, love you guys

really

truly and i'm tuning into the culture award you gotta what it's it's when when does it air august 5th on bravo the next day on peacock okay yes it's gonna be the bravo peacock dance alive

it's gonna be wild every day we've been in the writer's room every day and like actively putting it together and it's a how long of a special how long of a two hours two hours and you've got musical guests

any any surprise, anything?

Can we drop some tea here?

Say yet.

We'll be there.

Okay.

All right.

Yeah.

Good enough.

That's enough.

That's enough.

Good enough.

Good enough.

Where do you film?

We're going to be in LA.

July 17th.

We're filming it.

It's a blast.

It's really the live event.

Sounds like it's going to be really fun.

Sounds like it.

Well, I'll be tuning in.

Yay.

Maybe next year I can, you know,

make a sneak appearance.

Listen, get some of the straightness.

Let's say you're open meditation for your both.

Let's just put on our favorite.

That's our extension.

That's where you can come.

Oh, Bowen and Matt, it has been a pleasure.

You guys are funny and smart and sweet.

Yeah.

So nice.

Yeah.

Likewise I showed you.

Thank you for sharing all your wisdom with our IMO listeners.

And,

you know.

Any tips you can give us because we want to be where you are in a decade.

Down the axis.

Yeah.

Down the axis.

Down the axis.

That's right.

Put those strawberries in the raisin barrel.

Oh, yes.

Let me tell you

when you're making cereal.

There's no right way to make breakfast at least either.

Thank you guys.

Thanks so much.

Hi, Gretchen, Craig Robinson and my little sister Michelle here.

We host a new podcast called IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson.

We know you're the queen of giving advice, so we wanted to get a few tips from you.

You know, Gretchen, a lot of our listeners are going through some major life changes.

What advice do you have for folks who are trying to stay grounded in the midst of major life transitions?

Craig and Michelle, I am so happy to be talking to you.

Here are a few questions that might help us gain perspective.

So consider questions like this.

What activities take up my time, but are not particularly useful or stimulating for me?

Do I spend a lot of time on something that's important to someone else, but is not very important to me?

If I I could magically change one habit in my life, what would I choose?

And here's a question.

Would I like to have more time in solitude, restorative solitude, or would I like to have more time with friends?

You know, just thinking about questions like this can help us start to figure out how we might make our lives happier.

With greater self-knowledge, we're better able to make hard decisions that reflect ourselves, our own nature, our own interests, our own values.

In my own case, I have found that the more my life reflects my nature, the happier I get, and the more grounded I feel when I'm going through a period of major change or transition.

For more great advice, search for happier with Gretchen Rubin wherever you get your podcasts.