Fight For Your Dream Job with Victoria Monét

I had a person on my team,

though the intentions were good, really, really hurt my feelings because they made a PowerPoint presentation to me about how difficult it will be for me.

So, how much child care is what, um, wait, this is somebody on your team?

Yeah, oh, yeah, and the and the finale of the presentation was, What's the rush?

So, so it felt like an encouragement to get an abortion.

Wow.

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Well, good afternoon.

How are you?

I'm doing great.

I'm doing great.

The sun is shining.

It's spring has arrived here in DC.

And this is one of the best times of the year here in the city.

So glad to have you here.

You know what I notice being here?

My allergies aren't bothering me.

Well, that's interesting because this is allergy season here.

So you must be taking care of yourself.

You've taken your medicine.

I haven't taken anything.

I feel really good.

I got a good night's sleep.

Walked around the neighborhood a little bit last night

after I finally got home from having dinner with you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, we had a good time.

How are you doing?

I am doing pretty well.

You know,

as long as I'm still in that place, as long as my kids are good, our kids are good.

I'm doing good.

I'm having fun.

We're with this podcast.

We have had some great guests.

We got another great guest here with us today that we'll get to.

But I feel good and I'm happy to be here with you.

What's happening in Milwaukee?

You driving around in your new.

I am driving around in my new Rivian.

And

for for those of you who don't remember, Rivian gifted the two of us with

nice vehicles, the R1S to drive around.

And I've been tooling around.

We have officially made it our number one car to drive in the house.

That's a smart move.

Smart move.

It is a beautiful car and it is easy to drive.

And I have driven it just a little bit.

I'm going to have some more time with it this summer, but you have been driving it.

I have.

I have.

And I'm getting to know it a little bit better.

And you know what my favorite feature is other than not having to go to the gas station?

You're right.

What is it?

Is the navigational system.

Okay.

What's the screen is gigantic.

So in my old man eyes, I can see it very clearly.

And not only is it a big screen, but it is in 3D.

And you know, I love me some 3D maps.

So.

No, it's, it's been, it's that, that's one of many features, but that's one of my favorite features.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm looking forward to tooling around.

Good, good.

Well, you know, I got some real credibility points with my boys when I told them who our guest was going to be on today.

Okay.

So what did you, what did they say?

What did you say?

And what did they say?

So you guys have to picture this.

Picture us sitting at the kitchen table and our boys are not paying attention to what anything Kelly and I are talking about, right?

Because they are 15.

They are 15 and one's watching the basketball game and the other one is eating or something.

15 and 13.

And the 13 year old is the youngest of four.

So, you know, he's already cool and doesn't talk to anybody.

So she said, so who's going to be on this time?

And I'm going through the whole thing.

And I said, and then on the last day, the last person we're talking to is Victoria Monet.

And the 13-year-old goes like this.

So for those of you in the our audio folks who did, I just snapped my head around and looked at my sister.

He looked at me and he said, now that's a quality guest.

Quality.

That's what he said to me.

Quality.

Instead of everybody else we've talked to.

Yeah, that's a quality guest.

Yeah.

Well,

Victoria is a quality guest.

She is

three-time Grammy winner.

and songwriter and now a children's book author.

I know.

I'm so excited to talk about that project.

Her debut book, Everywhere You Are, is a heartfelt tribute to working parents, which we have both been, and their little ones, inspired by her own journey as a parent.

And it features her four-year-old daughter, Hazel, who I guess you've met.

Yeah, yeah, she's a cutie boots for sure.

She's voicing the audiobook at four years old.

That's awesome.

That is so, without any further ado, can we see our

good new friend here?

Victoria.

So good to see you too.

Thank you for being here.

Nice to to meet you.

Great to be on here.

And please tell the children I said hello.

Oh, quality.

And thank you for calling me quality.

I appreciate that compliment quality because at 13 they know something about quality.

He doesn't say, you know, he's a man of few words, too.

So for him to just say, okay, now that's a quality.

I love it.

Thank you.

Well, the last time we were together, we were trying to help the people, weren't we?

Yes.

Victoria joined me along with another, with a wonderful group of celebrity supporters in Atlanta in the middle of this past election to try to get young people out to vote.

And Victoria, you know, because we don't have a budget to fly people out.

And so the celebrities that were involved cared.

flew themselves out, got themselves out there and spoke passionately about the importance of voting.

And again, Victoria, I just want to thank you for

using your voice and your platform for something very, very important.

Thank you so much.

And you spoke so.

This is the first time I heard you speaking.

Yes.

And

you were brilliant.

Thank you.

You really were.

You are.

In addition to everything else, you are a phenomenal speaker.

I appreciate you.

Speaking from your heart and,

you know, just offering some wisdom at the same time.

So just want to make a difference yeah yeah well we'll have to try again yes

come on

maybe now we know

but it's great to have you here with me thank you for having me i'm so excited to be here and chat with you guys yes terrific so you're living in la la is home yeah has it been home for a while Since 2009, I've lived in LA.

So it's been quite some time.

Like my full adult life, all of the restaurants and parties, like everything has been LA based, but I'm from Sacramento.

Yeah, family from Mobile, Alabama.

So, because everybody's from Alabama

in the end, yeah.

Apparently, I just met Dr.

Sharon and she was telling me she's from Mobile and she knows my family.

I'm like, what a small, big world.

It's like, that's how it is.

Small amongst black folks.

Right.

For sure.

Right.

Well, I, you know, we want our listeners to really get to know you.

You know, everybody knows you a megastar now, but

it came from somewhere.

Yeah.

Right.

So tell us about your, you know, your path to here.

I know it's a, it's a, it's a long one.

So I'll let you pick the parts of it, but you've been dancing, singing, writing for a long, long time.

Yeah, it's been a passion of mine since I was really young.

I actually started with dance.

I feel like as an only child,

That gave me the confidence because it's a group sport.

You get to be on stage, but you're not by yourself.

You're like, you can either fade into the background or take the center stage so me you know developing my craft with dance first gave me the confidence to use my voice and start writing and singing um and i moved to la

off of an audition for a girl group in 2009.

so i was working as a bank teller at the time in sacrifice how old were you i was 19.

oh wow yeah and i got an email on i'm giving my age away my space so from you're talking to us

no matter what age age.

You're way

younger than me.

Yeah.

So one of the first social media experiences I feel like was MySpace.

And so I got an email for an audition.

So I went on the audition.

I asked my friends if I should go or not because it didn't financially make sense.

But I was like, I'm going to take the chance.

So I ended up making it into this girl group, which prompted us to move to LA within two weeks after that audition.

So I just packed everything on us.

Us being who?

There was two other girls

And so you were on your own, solo, as no, no parents, no anything.

No,

just me and a dream.

Yeah.

What did your parents think?

My mother was like, this is,

she was worried.

Yeah.

But I was like, mom, I'm serious.

It felt very much like a sister act.

I just want to dance.

I just want to do this.

So I was on my way.

Wait, how old were you when you realized that you, I know you did the dance and all of that, but when did it hit you like, okay i want to be a performer well as a profession yeah i was watching this movie um with my grandma i don't remember what age exactly but i want to say probably like eight nine um where holly berry was playing dorothy dandridge oh yeah

yes and i was i was like i want to be a trip with her i love the you know the challenges that she's facing and overcoming i want to be singing and dancing and and musicals and i used to love um movies like chitty Chitty Bang Bang or

Turner School Classic

Van Dyke

Dick Van Dyke is my favorite person he's amazing

he's amazing and like just such a classic

old school I do I do even musically I like I tend to go vintage so like 60s 70s remote town and you know temptations were my one of my favorites um did you get introduced to that through your your your family, or is that just your old soul taste?

Well, my mom actually told me that she thinks I was here before because somehow I knew the lyrics, but I think that just came from what my family was playing.

Like when we get together with our family reunions or events, like it was just a good time with that type of music or pool parties.

Like that was the kind of stuff that was playing.

That and then like 90s R ⁇ B.

But it just sounded so good.

I feel like I really connected with live instrumentation, like people playing horns and strings and flutes.

Like it just all sounded so beautiful.

So,

when you know, in the digital era where people can make music on a laptop and you, you can play the keys, but be having the sound come out as a guitar.

I really value people who have, you know, spent the time mastering true instrumentation.

So, did you come from a musical family, a talented family?

what's that dna my mom sang and danced she definitely danced around the house while she was cleaning she was actually listening to uncle luke sorry mom

and my grandma was listening to the oldies

um so it just reminds me so much of like a sunday morning

you know cleaning the house it just feels um so muchness I feel so much nostalgia.

My grandpa played saxophone and harmonica and my grandma sang opera.

So it's like

my aunts sing.

So it was around, but no one had pursued it as a career.

It just kind of felt like I viewed it as an extracurricular activity you can do,

but go to college and, you know, do the other way

to pursue a career was the way that they wanted me to go,

which I understood.

So you, so you were the first one in the family to really break out and say, I'm doing this.

The crazy thing.

I'm getting on the bus.

I'm out of here.

I'm going to the big city with my girl group.

Okay.

Yeah.

So from there, so many twists and turns.

I was writing.

I became a songwriter because I was still in a record deal that wasn't necessarily favorable.

Oh, that sounds familiar.

That is the story of everybody's first deal, right?

It's like, I guess you got to get jumped in or something.

I don't know.

But yeah, so.

I had to find my way out of that and take the songwriting path.

And that's how I ended up gaining more success as a songwriter songwriter first and then transitioning into artistry.

So, wait, what happened to the girl band, the girl group?

Well, it got dropped.

We actually got signed to Motown, which was so exciting because we, it was a dream listening to the music with my grandma.

So, it was so exciting.

And she had actually passed the year that I moved to LA.

So, I felt like she had her hand on that.

What was your first songwriting break?

When did it, when, when did it hit for you as a songwriter?

I had a lot of success with Ariana Grande

writing alongside her for

since her first album.

And then we just got really, really close.

She named her tour after a song that I had written with her called Honeymoon Avenue.

And then we just figured that we were musical soulmates and we just kept going.

It became a friendship and a partnership.

And so much fun.

You know, when you get to work with your friends, there's nothing like that, you know?

So I had a lot of success with her as a songwriter yay

it's beautiful it's so beautiful just have a family business or business with friends when you look around at the the people surrounding you you want to be inspired by them and be able to bring them up with you yeah

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Oh, I wish our parents had had that growing up.

No, I know.

You know, we started out in what would be called a co-op or a project in Parkway Garden homes.

And then we picked.

Where they rented.

We rented and we lived next to our grandparents our grandparents who rented

i mean at that point nobody was a homeowner yeah yeah and then our great aunt robbie moved to south shore and bought a home she and her husband

because they were they didn't they were older couple they never had their own children robbie was a teacher uh terry her husband had a good uh retirement plan as a pullman porter a good pension right uh so they were the first people that we knew of that owned their home.

Yeah.

And they were kind enough to allow us to rent the upper floor of a two-family house.

Yeah, a two-family home.

Yeah.

And that was really our first taste of being around people who were homeowners and living above someone as renters.

Right.

And we were little kids living above these two older folks.

So

we had to be careful

after a certain time.

We wanted to be quiet, didn't want to go stomping around, running around.

Couldn't have a dog.

Couldn't, and I know you wanted a dog.

I know you always say mom didn't want a dog, but I know you,

if you had wanted a dog, you would have gotten a dog.

Yeah, yeah.

They were allergic to dogs, so they didn't want to have a dog.

And I always dreamed, I used to beg dad, can we buy our own home?

Because I wanted stairs, right?

Yes.

You wanted a second floor bedroom.

I remember that.

But it was something that they were a little cautious about, very cautious about and and dad used to say i don't want to be house poor

and and at the time he would explain that having a mortgage was a tough thing and then later in life we figured out that was a great way to build wealth yeah yeah we started building our careers and realizing what our parents uh missed yeah yeah well i'm glad we figured it out and Thanks to Chase Home Lending for sponsoring this segment.

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so then you decide okay i've written a lot of hits for a lot of people now it's my turn yes when did you go from writing to writing for yourself and how old were you when that happened and because i'm trying to get the

timeline too because you're still a baby in my eyes thank you

well i think that once I had,

well, I was, let's start by saying I was always writing for myself in the background.

It just wasn't lucrative.

So I needed to take on different job titles in order within music in order to make.

ends meet.

So I started to become a vocal producer.

So, and I learned how to engineer

in Pro Tools so that I can record myself and others.

And those were the types of jobs within music that I could get money on the same day or week.

As far as songwriting,

it's a bit of a journey because you don't get income until the song, nine months after the song comes out, which is still not right away because you have to, you know, artists are working on an album maybe for a year at a time.

So if you wrote a song in January, maybe it'll come out next January.

And then nine months from there, you will see some.

royalties.

So I needed to find positions that would pay, you know, quickly.

So I ended up doing that.

And so you just had your hustle game.

Hustling.

Yeah, that's good.

Because I just, it's interesting because a lot of people want to go into music, they, you know, they don't understand the lag time, right?

The where the money is actually made.

You know, they just see the end result.

Right.

But

being the star isn't always the thing that pays.

Not always shiny either.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, but it's when you're, when you're able to do what you love, sometimes that money doesn't matter like i don't i didn't need to be uh rich and successful i just needed to eat you know and i would and i would do it a million times over because i just love what i do um

but it is nice to also be rewarded um

with even more than you anticipate for what you love to do

so yeah yeah and then came hazel yes she was a pandemic baby there was nothing to do.

So,

so, but I feel like that was a perfect timing.

It was almost like there was an intermission in my career to, to be able to let my body

go through that and then, you know, come back to self.

And she's been the biggest blessing.

It was almost like I had these preconceived notions that, you know,

having a child would suspend career or make things even more difficult, but God just was like, nope.

But it's been so fun.

Yeah, yeah.

Now, there are so many women out there in the midst of their careers and, you know,

where becoming a mother is stressful.

Yes.

Because they don't always know how it's going to be received.

Did you go through any of that?

Because you were very young in the middle of your career.

And of course, all kids are a blessing.

Right.

But, you know, did you have any fears, any doubts?

Were you afraid at any point that

this pregnancy was going to upend everything?

Yeah.

Talk a bit about that.

So when I got pregnant, I was an independent artist.

I was working with this company

called Platoon

working out of the UK.

And

when you're an artist, Though you're a human, you're technically the business.

So to have to explain to someone who is a partner in your business that your business may slow down because of pregnancy is difficult, but it's also something that you're supposed to feel celebratory about because it's a blessing and not everybody gets that opportunity that wants it.

So, you should be thankful.

So, it was a balance for me of being celebratory about it, but also kind of apologizing to my partners that

it was a weird thing for me to try to navigate.

How do you approach that conversation?

It was a Zoom call.

Oh, yes.

So yeah.

So exciting.

She's one of the,

I'm pregnant.

It was just like, in retrospect, it was, it was really, really disheartening.

And I,

um, I had a person on my team,

though the intentions were good, really, really hurt my feelings because they made a PowerPoint presentation.

to me about how difficult it will be for me.

So how much childcare is, what.

Wait, this is somebody on your team?

Yeah.

Ooh.

Yeah.

And the finale of the presentation was, what's the rush?

So it felt like an encouragement to get an abortion.

Wow.

So that was really, really hurtful.

And I walked out of that meeting.

And this was a meeting with a bunch of people.

Just me and this person.

Oh, okay.

This particular meeting with just me and this person.

And I walked out of that meeting with that same fight that I had when I left home.

Like, I'm going to, no, show you right.

I'm going to do this.

Yeah.

And it's my body and I'm going to make it work even if it's hard.

I'm not scared of hard things.

I can do hard things.

And

yeah, it was very, very emotional, especially in.

And how old were you?

I want to say I was 32, 31, 32.

You know, in the pandemic.

You were grown, but still, you know.

Yeah.

So to be apologizing for it felt like a big contradiction

spiritually.

But I know that the intention of the person wasn't to harm me.

They just wanted to let me know how big of a decision it is to keep and also balance

the expectations for what my career may or may not do after that.

But I walked hand in hand with God and he, that's, it's, it's amazing that one of my biggest songs is on my mama because it's so full circle to my intention and purpose for having her.

Yeah.

Well, it adds a whole new level of meaning to the song.

I mean, all of us are popping up.

And we think, yeah, it's like, on my mama.

Yeah.

Right.

You know?

Yeah.

Yes, it's beautiful.

Well, it's, it's, it's so important for you to share that because

there's so many of us as women out here working, trying to keep families together, hold on to our careers.

So many women will be able to identify with that fear, with the pressure,

you know, to

doubt the path that you're in.

Even something as precious as motherhood, because a lot of industries don't make space for mothers.

So how did you make space for your mothering?

um in in your career because you didn't you you didn't lose a step you know things might have been slow but how did you how did you do it?

How did you manage to manage that balance?

And I know you're still managing it, but.

Yes.

I think one of the best things that I was able to conquer is time management.

And luckily, I had put in 10,000 plus hours.

before I had her.

So I felt like I was able to do what I, what would have took me 10 hours in three hours because I had, you know, worked on my craft so much.

So I had to exercise that muscle.

And also also having a healthy relationship with

my

father, my child's father, even though we aren't together anymore, having a healthy co-parenting relationship so that she feels like even when I'm not there, there's someone who loves her just as much right next to her.

I'm glad you brought that up because for us men and partners out there,

how have you been able to keep such a healthy relationship even after

you guys have broken up?

because

as a divorced person, it doesn't always turn out that way.

So can you give us some advice on as partners on how to handle that?

Talk to the men.

Talk to okay.

So fellas,

please keep as much information off the internet as you can.

As much negative information.

If it's positive,

Let the world know.

But if it's negative and if it's critique, just please make sure that happens directly to who it needs to happen with versus the embarrassment of the world having to know.

And with social media, it makes it so much, so easy to make impulse posts, impulsive posts or

for news to travel or screenshots to go up.

And I just feel like the

world doesn't delete your feelings and get over your feelings the way you do.

So maybe you may feel that way today.

And then two years from now you guys may be best friends, but the world is still hanging on to what you said about that person.

It's like, you know, if you tell your friends or your mom that you got in an argument and your mom just never forgives that person.

Yeah.

It's like

you have to deal with it directly instead of letting everybody know your negative, every negative thought, because

we are protective beings and we want to protect the people we love.

And sometimes,

you know, everything it took for you to make up with that person, person you're not communicating those things with the people that you let know about the flaws right so sometimes it's just better to talk directly to the person or to a therapist only how specifically has hazel's father um helped you with the balance because there are some

some men who are like i don't do this i don't do that yeah um

talk about because i also think that's what kind of advice you're you're thinking about that

And men don't know how to do that.

That would be the next

question because we don't necessarily know how to support a

woman whose career is as big as yours and as busy as yours.

Yes.

That's a really, really great question.

I feel

maybe the answer is

a lot of patience and understanding and empathy.

It's almost like when I'm asking him to watch Hazel Hazel for a career move, I have to be able to have that same grace.

It's not a one-way street.

So if he wants to make a move or just be outside for a night and he wants to go out, I have to have that grace and say, yes, I'll watch her, even though I know he may be outside, meet somebody else.

You know, it's like all of those things are in consideration, but it just really takes a lot of patience and grace, prayer, great communication, making sure that.

um it you are considerate of how you're saying something versus what you're saying and i honestly, I want to ask him how he, how he does it as well, because it is not, I'm seeing so much chaos in our community

regarding children and the separation of parents.

And we all know that it's quite normal these days to

for things not to last.

So how is it that our community can better navigate those hard moments?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, it's, it's interesting you said you want to ask him how he does it.

Yeah.

Because it sounds it, it before you said that, I was thinking that you guys got together, had a meeting and said, okay, here are the things that we need to go over to make this work.

Yeah.

But you, it sounds like this was more trial and error or well, we did say that we we were going to stay offline

on anything that would negative negatively affect either of our images

and that Hazel could eventually read and see.

So that that was the main agreement.

But beyond that, the daily back and forth, I feel like he should probably have a platform to speak on it because I know dads around the world are going through this and they don't know how to balance their emotions or, you know, their

maybe potential

rage and like disappointment that.

the relationship didn't work out or jealousy or financial burdens.

It's just being single parents on the other end, you know, because when they have the child, assuming and hopefully they're involved,

there are going to be huge moments where they're operating as a single dad.

Right.

You know,

which we, you know, a lot of women understand that balance, but where men who, when they are able to talk about those challenges and how are they finding that balance,

men don't talk about that.

Yeah.

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So, so when Hazel comes to you and says, hey, mom, I want to be a performer.

She has said that.

Already.

Okay.

She's already

done some voiceover work on the book.

Yes, yes.

And she also in 2024,

along with my first Grammy nominations as an artist, she became the first, the youngest Grammy nominee in history.

So it's like, God is really just nailing in the idea that everything that you wanted

is tenfold with with your child by your side and you're doing things that you're supposed to do and making a difference in her her life and you will be rewarded in that way well and uh

your current project your book yes um everywhere you are um tell us about the motivation behind writing this got a copy of

the book right here

yes so the inspiration really is to combat children with separation anxiety and parents with parent guilt who have to balance work and family life and i feel like that's about everybody

you know

I was reading something somewhere where it was explaining why children enjoy peekaboo as children.

It's because

when you disappear, they actually view you as gone.

So it's like you're doing this magic trick, like you're disappearing and coming back.

So I started to think about how, well, if I'm actually gone.

What is she thinking?

You know, and for the hours, eight hours a day, you know, that I'm working or any parent is working,

what does she feel

so I just wanted to make something tangible that a parent can read or an uncle or an aunt can read that doesn't live out of in town how do you combat your guilt

sometimes because I'm just assuming you have it because we all do 100% a hundred percent I think one explaining things to her helps me

Because aren't kids really smart?

They understand a lot more than sometimes we give them credit for.

And

a lot of times when parents say to their child, they're going to work, but they're doing it for the child.

My approach is, I'm doing this for you and for me.

So that she knows mommy has dreams and she has her own identity too.

And she can be proud to know that none of that was given up on because of her existence.

Because sometimes the story goes that we say, I gave up everything for you.

Yeah.

And that although it's sound, it's, yeah, it pressurizes the love and the capacity.

And so the child feels, feels guilty instead.

And the parent feels resentful to their motherhood or fatherhood.

Um,

and so I just wanted to change that narrative a bit and say, you know what?

I have dreams and I'm going to go pursue them.

And everything that I get from these, this pursuit, you will benefit from.

But it's also my dream.

And I won't want to give up on that for me.

And when you get a dream, dream, I don't want you to give up on that for you.

And amazingly, they understand.

How do you get the sense that Hazel gets it?

And I know it's, you know, she's going to go through her phases, but as a mom, you know her and you know what she's understanding

and what she isn't.

I think that it came down to her reaction when I leave

and

her reaction when I get back is really, really helpful.

So at the beginning, it was lots of tears and that separation is so difficult.

Like that first day of school, you're like, I sat in the car that day and I was like, am I doing the right thing?

She doesn't technically need school right now because, like, maybe I'll just wait till she, and she actually is in kindergarten.

She was two at the time.

But I needed her to

have some social skills because she was a pandemic baby.

So she was like, I don't like anybody with my kids.

So I needed her to figure out more.

You need to break this now.

Yes.

Yeah.

It was important to do.

You need some friends.

Please go two-year-olds.

Please, y'all go have your conversations.

But that first day, I was like, I don't know if I'm, this is right.

It felt so heavy.

And then she realizes that she's autonomous and independent, and she can have a great day, whether or not mommy's smiling in her face, or whether or not mommy gives her a lollipop.

She can create it on her own.

So knowing that she has that confidence was helpful to know that it's okay to give some distance and come back, give some opportunity to be missed and come back um

create some emotional resilience that's right yeah yeah that's great we are grateful to you and hazel thank you for making it happen um that's right thank you and this is this we you know on imo we have a question from one of our listeners and so this is a perfect time to pivot to that and our question today is from Lily from who lives in Virginia.

Hey, Lily.

Lily.

Hi, Michelle and Craig.

I'm in my late 20s and have been doing something I absolutely love since I had my first job at age 16, teaching dance.

I have taught dance every year since and still love it just as much.

I did all my undergrad projects on dance and after COVID, I earned my master's in dance education.

I am now at my first full-time job at a non-profit doing what I love every day, creating curricula and teaching dance.

I've been here for just over two years.

As much as I love this work, I'm also extremely stressed out and anxious.

My job has begun to take such a mental and emotional toll on me that I dread meeting new people because I know the question, what do you do, will come up.

For some reason, I now hate telling people about my work because it stresses me out all over again.

When I'm not there, I try my hardest not to think about it.

I have an amazing therapist that I've been working on this with for quite a while, but I'm still confused about why I dread talking about the job I've always felt so passionately for.

How normal is this?

Does this just mean that I'm burnt out?

Or is this a sign that this work is no longer for me?

Have you ever felt this worn out by your work?

And if so, how did you manage to keep going?

Thank you.

Now, there is,

we have not had a question so perfect for our guests

than this one.

Yes,

I understand it completely, Lily.

I would say there's a, I feel like there's a couple layers to to this question.

One is the anticipation of the question, what do you do?

And the answer being a description of your job versus the purpose of your job.

So if the question comes, I would maybe reframe the answer as I help people manifest.

their true destiny.

I help people perfect their dream and their craft.

I help people get better.

Instead of saying, I am a dance teacher, you know, like that title, just maybe reframing that.

And then the other layer, I think, to the question is two things can be true at once.

You can love what you do, but it can also be really hard and draining.

You can love the person you're with, but they can also get on your nerves.

You know, so it's okay to

change.

change what you do if that's what you feel like you should do and take some space away from it.

I think if dance, if saying you're a dance teacher doesn't feel good right now and it's been since you're 16, that's okay to try something else because your 16 year old dream, you've been through so many versions of yourself since then.

So it's okay not to have the exact same vision for yourself and maybe then dance teaching can become something you do as an extracurricular activity versus your sole job or a sole income.

So it's possible to like have a bit of a plot twist.

And then if it's still something, if it's something that you miss, you may return.

Life can take you through so many twists and turns and different journeys.

And maybe sometimes it could be your gut telling you, hey, let's try something else for a little bit.

And that's completely okay.

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You know, I relate to it as a songwriter as well, because when I started, I was an artist moving to LA and then I got a lot of success from songwriting.

So everybody who met me was like, oh, the songwriter, the songwriter, the songwriter.

And it wasn't until I did something else more than I did the other thing that they recognized me as that.

Oh, the artist, the artist.

It's like any job.

If you meet somebody and they say, oh, yeah, I'm, for example, a janitor,

they're going to realize that that's what you

are.

And then until you become a teacher and your teaching outweighs.

the time that you spend as a janitor, then they will identify you as a teacher.

So it just becomes

what you spend most of your time doing.

And that can always change.

You don't have to remain the same person that you introduced yourself as to anybody.

Now, Victoria, did you ever,

I mean, you were so focused on becoming an artist or

a performer or whatever, however you want to label it.

Were you ever embarrassed to say that's what you were or that's who you wanted to be?

I wouldn't say embarrassed, but also,

but more so,

what is the word

it felt and like an ambitious statement like inside people may be like yeah okay oh yeah i wouldn't want to sound like you were bragging it's like my husband i i want to be president of the united states it's like no you might want to keep that

yeah

oh that's so nice you want to be president exactly that is that or like when someone's like i want to play basketball and i'm going to be the best basketball player ever and you're like okay i'm going to play in the nba you you're surrounded by I am surrounded by people who do that.

But I will say, I will say to the, to Lily's point, when,

see, I'm so old, there was not the internet.

So I didn't grow up wanting to be an NBA player.

It sort of just developed.

But even as I was heading in that direction, I never wanted to tell people I was a basketball player.

So I understand.

And why was that?

Because I didn't want to be

pigeonholed in, oh, he's just a basketball player.

Okay.

Now, I don't know how many people have that feeling now because basketball players are making more money than most people.

But at the time, I really felt

self-conscious about basketball playing being my

job.

Did you feel like it was because the stigma around basketball players were that they weren't something else, like maybe not educated or not?

That is exactly it.

That is exactly it.

And and I had relatives in my family who thought that basketball playing was a waste of time, too.

So they were like, Why'd you point to me when you said that?

Because you're the only relative in the room.

That's why she got nervous and she probably was thinking the same thing.

No, uh, but I had relatives and who would be like, well, is that all you do?

Oh, you know, and and so I really, really, Dandy used to say that our paternal grandfather would never talk to me and would never talk to me about sports.

Oh, wow.

Because he thought that the only thing he had to talk to us about was education and learning.

And

as a young black man, and I saw him do this to my uncles, like,

you know, he didn't meet them where they were.

He wanted them to rise up to what his expectation of them was.

Yeah.

And, and I'm sure my parents didn't do that, but I felt that in society

so that it wasn't until I got drafted, literally drafted that I said, all right, I'm a basketball player, right?

Like this was a real thing that validated by that.

So I was wondering if, if, uh, if you ever had that in the music business.

I feel like,

yeah, it was just, it's a feeling of people projecting their own doubts onto you when you say something so grand.

Because I do feel like some of your dreams, your biggest dreams should sound a bit scary and then you you manifest those things regardless which I think a lot of us have you know if maybe even Lily would have you know I'm gonna be this amazing dance teacher and people may have been like okay yeah like that's kind of a creative job like

maybe you know schooling is you should pick a different major you know something

you know so yeah they're they're they've they they're picturing ahead how much money you could potentially make.

That's true.

And people, a lot of traditional families, regular families who aren't in the arts or doing something that's considered non-traditional, and the arts still is considered a non-traditional way of life.

People don't understand the profession.

They don't know that it is a profession.

They don't know how you can, you know, you just laid out a whole,

you know,

sub-industry industry within the music business that, you know, like you said, you wanted to write, but there are other jobs in the music profession, producing, and you'll name them because I don't know them

working in the control room.

Control room.

You know, nobody knows that.

You know, people know doctor, lawyer.

Now you can be a day trader or, you know, I mean, some of the career titles are growing in people's minds.

But the average mom and dad the minute somebody says they want to go into theater or the arts or they want to be in music you know the light goes off in the eye of the parent right and i wonder if lily has experienced some of that because she's in a community or in a family of people where it's like a dancer like what's that right i don't understand that so i i don't even know i don't know i don't know what that means yeah um and if she's experienced any of that i imagine how how hard it must be for her to summon up the energy to continue something when it gets hard.

Right.

Right.

It's like it's easy to quit on yourself when you naturally get burnt out.

Yeah.

You know, if it's not something that everybody around you is saying, I get it.

I get you being a doctor.

Yeah.

I understand the long hours.

Boy, we're rooting for you.

Right.

But

you're in the arts.

You're dancing.

You're acting.

You're making music.

I don't understand it.

Yeah.

It just seems like,

and naturally so, parents or people around would just want to hear something that has a guarantee.

Yes.

And with art, there is,

or even sports, it's like, well, you need a backup plan.

It's always a plan B situation because you could get injured.

It's like all the projections of the worst case scenario.

But I would love for us to obsess over the best case scenario.

Like, what if you are the best NBA player?

And what if you are the best dance teacher that ever lived and you're able to provide scholarships and change people's lives with what they want to do, and make healthier bodies by what you're doing because you're encouraging exercise through something that's more fun than running on a treadmill, potentially it's dance and performance.

So, it's tough because I think we're just all being protective of each other and creating those shields.

And sometimes those come in the form of limited beliefs and ideas of what you could do.

So,

have you ever experienced burnout yourself?

Because that's also something that I think people assume.

Oh, you're doing something you love.

It's your passion.

It's something you've always wanted your whole life.

And it's this, you know, it's this fun thing.

Yes.

And so if you burn out, that must mean it's all wrong.

Yeah.

So I just wonder,

in you, you were doing the thing you've always loved.

Yes.

Have you experienced burnout?

And how did you handle it?

Have you handled it?

You know, it some fight, just with, as with anything, you have to get through that storm to get to the rainbow every time and remember why it is that you're doing it.

And then again, remind yourself of the

gratitude that you should operate with because

there are so many people that want to do what you do that can't.

So that'll help you a bit.

when in that morning where you're just so exhausted and you want to stop or sleep in or you know give up in the long term.

But making sure that you realize that every day is an opportunity.

And even when it's hard, if you just show up, even if you don't, you, your score for that day is a C, like you're not at your A game, but you showed up and you tried, that's how you get back on track.

When I'm experiencing a writer's block or I'm just not inspired, I just have to show up.

And sometimes I'm not showing up as my best self.

But the fact that I showed up kind of

it's like training, it's that muscle strength and just it's exercising resilience and not depending on inspiration because inspiration fades, it's depending on muscle discipline and yes, and muscle memory.

Yeah, so just showing up, and that's the same thing we have to do in anything in our friendship relationships, our personal relationships.

Um, everything that we do

will come with some types of hardships, but that's just to juxtapose the times when it does feel good.

I'd say to Lily, based on that, is like, first of all, burnout is okay.

And I think you said this too, Victoria, but I, you know, I think young people who are pursuing non-traditional things, you know, they should be aware that even if you're doing something you love, there will come a point in time when you may be burned out.

Yes.

You know, the people at the top of their game, you you know, I'm sure Michael Jordan, I'm sure Steph Curry, I'm sure you name it.

I'm sure, you know,

Beyonce.

Yeah.

Everybody, even when they're at the top of their game, they get burned out.

Right.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that this isn't the path for you.

It just means that, you know, you may.

need to think about ways to nurture yourself,

which you'll have to do in any career.

That's right.

In any profession, in any aspect of life, is to learn how to keep moving forward so maybe lily isn't you know it you know the burnout may not be a sign of anything other than you know just need a little rest she's right she needs a maybe she needs a moment of rest and maybe she wants to take a moment of rest before she takes full steps away from the thing that she loves yeah so there may be you know there may be a process to this right she may want to try for you know a month or so you know finding a way to reduce her schedule if she's can if she can right um working in non-profit as somebody who worked in non-profit you usually don't have that kind of flexibility because you're working with tight budgets and you're understaffed you're working in tough communities so you know that may be playing a role in her burnout is that she may be you know, doing a dance class with 50 kids at a time.

So she may have real legitimate reasons to be burned out because she's working hard, especially if she's working in underserved communities.

That's right.

So instead of walking away, maybe she wants to find a minute to take some time off

and then see what that feels like.

You know, she might need to give herself a minute to miss it before she makes a full-blown statement about this isn't for me.

Yeah.

But she may.

go away for a week or a month and be happy with that and turn that in two months and three months.

And as you said, it's okay if she looks up in six months or a year or even shorter and says, I think I need to step away for a bit longer.

Yeah.

You know, that's just the process of figuring yourself out.

Yeah.

Whether in career or in life.

That's right.

When I was

came out of law school, I went into a big corporate firm because I went to Harvard and had a lot of debt.

And that's what you did.

You became a big corporate lawyer.

Right.

I was in there for two years,

pretty miserable, not because of the place, but because the work was kind of soul-crushing to me.

But I realized I hadn't tried anything else.

And I left and I started working in city government and public service.

And each job, while it paid less, was more interesting.

You know, it had me in community.

It had me working with people.

So that year turned into two years.

And then that job went from, you know, working for the deputy chief of staff to working in planning and development.

And before you know it, I was away from law.

I've never gone back.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, so sometimes it, but it helped that I stepped away for a minute.

And maybe Lily wants to try that.

Yeah.

That's that's good at that.

That's really great.

Yeah.

That's that leap of faith and bravery sometimes that will take you on your supposed path.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And and and that's not to say, Lily, that what you, you, what you feel like is your passion isn't your passion, right?

It's just

be flexible enough.

If you're burnt out, be flexible enough to try something else because you can always come back to your passion.

And that's, that's a great point.

And it's, it's, Misha and I have both done the same thing.

You know, we,

my mom used to joke, you all went to all these fancy schools and you end up making less and less money each job you take.

Why, thank you.

It's like, yeah, that's a good point, mom.

That's a good point.

But she, she never, she was always very supportive, but she said it sort of

true.

Because it was very true.

Yeah.

Another pay cut, huh?

Yeah.

Mish did it a little more than I did.

I went from

Wall Street trader to assistant basketball coach.

So everybody thought I was having a nervous breakdown.

I was really,

I was doing what Lily was doing.

I figured out, ah, this is my passion.

I want to try it.

And off to the races I went.

So

this is, you all have some good stuff.

I have some good notes.

I took notes.

I took notes.

I took notes because

Lily's, she had a lot of stuff going on here.

But

the first thing that I took down, Victoria, was what you said about

talking about what you do, not what the job is.

I like, that was really good.

That's, you know, I mean, it's not that she's ashamed of it, but help people understand

that what, what being a dance teacher is and does for young people, for old people,

for the community.

I mean, that's great advice, Lily.

So I think you should really listen to that.

And then, Mish,

you went straight for the Explore Your Why.

That's her thing.

We ought to get some t-shirts with Explore Your Why.

Actually,

because that's really good.

All right, team.

T-shirts.

Let me get one of those, please.

And then

just because folks don't understand your career.

doesn't mean that you're on the wrong track.

And this will get back to Marion Robinsonism.

Why are you worried about what everybody's thinking?

But that's hard in this day and age.

It was hard for us when, you know,

50 years ago, right?

But it's really hard for you all because of

the social media and everybody's like rating everybody and liking everybody and talking about it.

It's just, it's a barrage of grading.

So you're trying to get good grades.

You know, that's what I say about these young people.

They're trying to get good grades all the time.

And Lily, you don't have to get a good grade if you know what you want to do.

And if you know you're working hard,

that's the best part of it.

The process is the best part.

Enjoy that.

So

that's what I gleaned from you two experts here.

I love that.

I just want to add too, because

I'm reminded of my own path and what my dance teachers did for me.

She changed how I felt about arriving at school, how I felt about my body and how I should take care of my body.

She introduced the class to yoga.

And then I became a dance teacher.

I was, I didn't mention I was a bank teller.

I was also teaching dance at two different studios.

Oh, you looked that part out.

Yeah.

Two different studios.

Because we heard the bank teller part.

Yeah, right.

Yes.

So two different dance studios.

And I just saw one of my students, his name is Keita,

dancing for Kendrick Lamar.

Wow.

He was six years old when I I was teaching him and now he's on stage with Kendrick in a stadium.

Oh, he did the Super Bowl?

He just he's he's on tour with him.

Oh, wow.

Him and Sizza.

So

to see sometimes it's really inspiring to see the difference you can make in people's lives and just knowing.

Knowing even in the unknown that you are able to help and change someone's whole trajectory by what you're doing.

So that's why just really using the

purpose as the answer versus the actual job title

would probably be a helpful reminder.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We just, Lily, stay encouraged.

Yes.

You know, and you're just in your 20s

and,

you know, you, you have time to be so many different things.

I just want Lily and all young people out there to know it just feels like as we get questions from young people, there's so much pressure to feel like they're supposed to have all the answers at a time when I'm 60 and I'm still like, I don't know nothing.

So all I, you know, I want, I want.

our young listeners and the the parents and friends of young people who are struggling with their their why and feeling like they're off course when they've just started.

Yeah.

It's like, be easier on yourself

and understand that there are many opportunities to recreate yourself.

And to keep growing, you're going to have to.

You know, that's the fun part of life is that there are many chapters to come and there's no right answer.

So I want Lily to stay encouraged, but to take care of herself.

So she's feeling burnt out, find a way to get a break so that she can think clearly.

Because what it is hard to do is make determinations, you know, sensible determinations about what you want for your life when you're not at your best mental state.

That's right.

So, and that's true no matter what you do.

You got to take care of your mental health.

You got to take care of your physical health so that you have some clarity to figure out the next moves.

Yeah.

So, brilliant.

Thanks, Lily, from Virginia.

Thank you, Lily.

Good luck.

Yes.

And Victoria, thank you.

Thanks.

You are a little wise one.

You know, at this table, you're a baby.

I'm sorry.

You know, you're grown and mature in the industry.

Hold on to it.

Hold on.

But you are a wise baby.

Thank you.

So, I mean, it has really been a pleasure just to hear what's going on inside that head of yours.

Hazel is very lucky.

Yes, she is.

I really appreciate it.

She is.

And to have your tribe, too.

Yes.

Because it sounds like it's a healthy group.

Yeah.

It's a healthy group.

It's curated and God

did his thing.

So I appreciate it.

Well, we're going to keep an eye on you.

You got any new music coming out?

Anything we should know?

Any T2 drop?

D T2 drop.

I'm actually working on the next project right now.

After the book tour, I am actually locking away in the studio.

The rest of the year is just music, music, music.

So we're excited about that.

Well, we consider you a part of the IMO family.

You and Hazel.

Tell Hazel.

I said, hey.

I sure will.

And her Chanel.

And her.

What did you call

Banel?

Banel.

I wish you all the best.

We're going to keep an eye on you.

Anytime you want to come on and,

you know, throw down some more wisdom, we would love to have you.

Thank you so much for having me.

It was an honor to speak with you both.

And keep representing.

Keep showing up as a fabulous young woman, young mother, young professional.

I'm Hoda Kotbi from Making Space.

Okay, you and I are both on the other side of the jump, whether it is Life After the White House or in my case, Life After the Today Show.

So, what has this new chapter taught you about starting something new at any stage, about being a beginner again?

I would encourage all your listeners to embrace those transitions, to practice them.

It's a muscle, and not to run away from change, but to embrace it as much as possible and turn that into something really special.

There's a lot of learning that happens on the other side of our fear of change, and I'm living proof of that.

You know, nothing keeps me me sharper these days as somebody who's getting up there in years than doing something completely new and foreign.

And with Misha and I doing IMO, it gives me particularly an opportunity to do something that is completely outside of my wheelhouse of experience that I've had before now.

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