Dragonian Law

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Dragonian Law, Aaron brings the case against her husband, Bill.

Erin and Bill threw a dragon-themed birthday party for their one-year-old.

On the day of the event, Erin was horrified to see the menu Bill had put together.

Bill named the food and drink after various things dragons shed, excrete, and throw up.

Bill says it was fun.

Aaron doesn't want to see another picture of Dragon Pea.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

A sage tells of encountering Bahamut in the guise of an old hermit with seven canaries singing sweetly as they flitted nearby.

The sage relates that he would never have known that he was anything other than what he appeared to be, except that a group of ogres and trolls happened by, much to their sorrow.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in.

Aaron and Bill, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever.

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling?

Despite the fact that dragons love tacos, I don't know.

I don't know what is the premise of that joke anymore.

We've discussed that before.

Do you swear that?

Sure.

Yes.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

First of all, I will rule that dragons do love tacos and tacos are not sandwiches.

Second, Aaron and Bill, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom?

Let's see who's going first here.

Why don't we say Bill?

Okay.

That is not anywhere in the realm of what I prepared, so I'm really not sure.

But I would.

Do you want to hear it again?

Uh, sure.

How about this?

Would you like to hear an example of subduing a dragon?

Yes.

All right, good.

Two eighth-level fighters, a seventh-level dwarven fighter, an elven fourth-level fighter, and a sixth-level magic user and a halfling thief of ninth-level, stumble across a huge red dragon peacefully asleep on a veritable mountain of treasure.

After a hurried, whispered debate, the party opts to strike to subdue, as that will A, give give them a dragon to use or sell, or B, and B, save treasure from destruction by

avoiding the fireworks of a general melee.

I won't go on.

Do you have any guess where I'm quoting from?

I'm going to guess it's the Dungeons and Dragons movie.

The Dungeons and Dragons movie.

You mean Dungeons and Dragons or Dungeons and Dragons Honor Among Thieves?

Ooh.

I'm going to go with the second.

Honor Among Thieves.

Yes.

That's a great movie.

Yeah, that was a lot of fun.

That was a good movie.

It was a good movie and a good guess.

And I'm writing it down into the guest book right now.

Aaron, it's your turn.

What is your guess?

I'm way out of my depth here with the dragon theme, but I'm going to go.

Oh, here, let me give you some more.

As the dragon had just awakened, the party strikes first.

Four of them hit, and another 23 hit points of doing damage is scored.

The dragon...

chooses to breathe.

I scored 99%.

So he turns his head and fires right where the elf dwarf and halfling are attacking.

Saving throws indicate that each take 44 88 and 44 hit points damage respectively all three char and die john do you think chris pine might be the best of the chrises of shoguz you know those chrises uh yes all the chrises of shoguz they're all very good They're all very good.

But I think Chris Pine might be the best one.

He's great in that Dungeons and Dragons.

I was watching that Dungeons.

I don't care about Dungeons and Dragons particularly, but I watched that movie and I'm like,

Chris Pine, this guy's great.

he is great, but I love all the Chris's and I will never say anything against my friend Chris Evans, who once responded to me on Twitter before it was terrible.

So,

all right, all three char and die.

Aaron, does that give you the hint you need to take this one and put it in your treasure bag?

So I think now that I've heard that

three times,

definitely going to go with the Ballad of the 20th of Maine by the ghost of Paul Revere.

That really jogged my memory.

So thank you.

Ballad of the 20th of Maine by the ghost of Paul Revere.

Is that some kind of hippie band that they play up here at weru.org in Orlando, Maine, Joel?

Yes, they've been here before.

Who is it?

Paul Revere.

It's hard for me to know which is the band and which is the song and which is the whatever.

Yeah, are we talking about Paul Revere, the Patriot, Paul Revere of Paul Revere and the Raiders?

Yeah, I don't know.

Aaron, what are you talking about?

It's the ballad, the state ballad of Maine.

It's the official state ballad of Maine.

Erin, do you have a Maine connection?

I did live in Maine for about six years after college.

Oh, whereabouts?

Portland, Maine.

But I had friends kind of all over and got to explore the state pretty extensively because a lot of my friends from Maine had, you know, camps up north and various locations.

Hey, if you have anyone in Maine still, you can let them know the news.

The hot dog steamer at the gas station is still broken.

Very disappointed to report.

Yeah, still broken.

It's been weeks.

Bill, do you have any connections to Maine?

Aaron.

That's my connection to Maine.

All right.

I was going to throw you out of court, but that's pretty cute.

Anyway, all guesses are wrong.

Of course, I was quoting from the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Monster Manual.

I believe it was the fourth edition from 1979, written by Gary Gygax in his description initially of Bahamut, the one and only platinum dragon, the most powerful of the metallic dragons, and the king of the good dragons, not to be confused with Tiamut,

the goddess, the five, I hope, headed goddess of evil dragons with a different color dragon head for each neck.

But you got it wrong, I'm afraid, both of you.

And so we will go on to hear the case.

Erin, who seeks justice in this case?

I do, Your Honor.

What is the nature of the justice that you seek?

I

would

like no reparation for past harm done.

However, moving forward, I would really love to not have any excrement-themed food at my son's birthday parties unless specifically requested without any goating prompting or inside jokes, like moving forward, unless he really requests it.

Your son requests it, not Bill.

Oh, yes.

Yeah, I don't know.

Right.

Okay.

Well, let's go to past harm, just so that we understand.

So

your husband, Bill, put together a menu for your shared son's birthday party.

When was that birthday party?

Around January 30th.

Okay.

And how old was your son turning at that time?

He turned one.

Okay.

So this was a big birthday party.

And the party was dragon-themed.

Bill, why dragons?

Because Aaron wanted to do a dragon-themed birthday party.

Whoa.

He just threw it back on you, Aaron.

Aaron, why dragons?

Well, originally we didn't have a theme because I think birthday is a good theme, just party.

I agree with you.

Yeah.

So, but then our son received a really cute dragon stuffed animal for Christmas, which is only about a month before his birthday, and a really sweet book that went along with it from his aunt Kristen.

And

he really liked that dragon.

And I thought, you know what, we could put up a few dragon pictures on the walls and balloons or something just to give it a little bit more pizzazz because it was a small birthday party with just immediate family.

We were trying to keep it really low-key, low-stress, so we could enjoy the day together.

But I also love,

you know, fantasy, medieval fantasy

kind of.

So it was something that I really enjoy

for sure.

You ever play Dungeons and Dragons or Advanced Dungeons and Dragons?

I have not.

What's your favorite dragon book to read?

I'm a big Lord of the Rings fan, even though

Smaug is kind of an evil dragon, but

just really into different fantasies.

I was actually thinking when I was in like middle school, I read a book series about talking to dragons.

I think it's actually called Talking to Dragons.

And that may have been like the first series I really got into.

I think it was like a YA series that probably came out in the late 80s.

I don't know if it should still be read or not because I was maybe eight or nine or 10 when I read it, but that's probably the first like book series I got into with dragons.

One must be careful when blindly recommending culture from 10 to 30 years ago for sure.

But okay, so you love dragons.

And so why didn't you take the lead in theming your party?

Because it seems like you asked Bill to take care of the food and that's what the problem is here.

That's a great question.

So we have a really good distribution of labor in our house and Bill is admittedly a really good cook and I'm a really terrible cook.

And it also, it also stresses me out.

I don't like shopping for like meals and having to remember all the ingredients.

I can follow a recipe, but Bill is just like a genuinely phenomenal cook.

And so when we were talking about the party, he...

I think he volunteered to take on the food or maybe I was stressed out about it and I was just going to go with sandwich, sandwich trays from Costco or something.

And he said, Why don't I take care of it?

And you cannot stress out about it.

And I'll, I'll just, you know, soup to nuts, like figure out the menu, shop for it, and put it all together.

Jesse Thorne, how are the sandwich trays at Costco?

Acceptable.

Thank you.

Jesse Costco weighs in one more time.

Thank you very much, Jesse Costco.

A great value for a party you don't care about that much.

Your first,

your,

Your first child is this son?

Yes.

Okay.

And I presume he has some sort of dragon name like Silarius.

Oh, I wish.

No.

We'll call him Silarius for reasons of anonymity.

I just want to say that the

protagonist of the Enchanted Forest Chronicles, the series of which Talking to Dragons is

the fourth and final book,

is

Daystar, Son of Cimmerine.

Oh, that's even better.

We'll call your son Daystar son of Cimmerine.

It's Daystar's first birthday party.

You have sort of stumbled into a dragon theme.

You have reasonably delegated the food to your husband.

And that's why we're here because you think your husband did a bad job.

Now, in terms of the badness of the job that he did, how would you rank

Bill's work providing a menu for this dragon-themed party?

And I would like you to rank it in order of Dungeons and Dragons, Metallic Dragons.

So, did he get a gold, silver, bronze, copper, brass, platinum, cobalt, steel, or mithril dragon level?

You said mithril?

Yeah, mithril.

Oh, okay.

Not okay.

Somewhere in the middle, halfway.

Well, here's the thing.

Brass.

Sure.

Well,

I thought it was a really creative menu.

I like that he was really excited about the theme.

He came up with some really interesting ways to bring the theme to life.

And the quality of the food was fine.

It was nothing like his amazing menus that he's done before.

But I was okay with that because typically he gets stuck in the kitchen for hours doing these really intricate meals.

And so I was kind of glad he did some pre-made food and assembled food so he could be out there and enjoying the party more.

It was more just the naming of the food after things that come out of a dragon that I probably wouldn't say are appetizing for adults.

Well, let's get into that.

You did send in some evidence.

All these photos will be available, of course, on our show page at maximumfund.org, as well as all of our social media.

And if you're watching on our YouTube channel, Jutch John Hosman Pod, you're looking at it right now, exhibit A buffet of party foods labeled with names.

I'm going to read the names, Bill.

You tell me what the food is.

Do you follow me?

Yes.

Okay, so you have something here labeled dragon claws.

Dragon claws.

Yeah, those are the classic bugle snack food.

Bugles.

Well, they do kind of look like claws.

And here you have plated them nicely by putting a bag into a bowl.

So this was before the party started.

We had not.

Oh, okay.

As you can see, the punch was not mixed yet either.

Okay, all right.

We'll get to the punch in a moment.

Also, we have something labeled here, dragon fireballs.

Dragon fireballs.

What are we looking at there?

So those are cake pops.

And I attempted to dip them in like orange chocolate and then sprinkle them with red dust.

I'm not a chocolatier, so the chocolate was a mess, but I did get some red sprinkles on them.

I do think they look like fire dust.

But these are cake pops that you made yourself.

Well, I bought the cake pops themselves at the store.

Okay.

And then I was trying to do the chocolate over top of the chocolate that was already on there.

And I'm judging them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Not a chocolatier.

And these are dragon fireballs, like something a dragon might shoot out of its mouth, right?

Okay.

Just being very, very clear here.

Bill, if I can be clear in understanding this, you're not a chocolatier.

Is that correct?

That's correct.

Are you a puppeteer?

No, not that I.

What kind of tear are you?

That's a great question.

I'm still trying to figure that one out.

But you wrote dragon fireballs on that post-it note.

That was your role here?

Yes.

I did melt.

That's kind of tear.

You're a post-it note writing tear.

Yeah.

All right.

I did dip them in another chocolate that I did use a double boiler to melt.

And then

right, but you're not a chocolate

boiler.

No, but a double boiler teer.

That's some, that takes something.

All right.

I mean, as long as he eventually opens that back of bugles and pours them into the bowl.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

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Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org/slash join.

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Yeah, I'm talking about entree bowls.

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Dragon P, you mentioned, it had not yet been poured when this photo was taken.

There is an empty picture that is labeled with a post-it, Dragon P, P-E-E, if you're not hearing me correctly, i.e., urine, i.e., piss,

i.e., I'm trying to make the 11-year-olds laugh.

This is not an invisible liquid.

You had not yet concocted the pea, correct?

Correct.

You can see the ingredients sitting next to it was sprite and cranberry juice.

If this were a cooking competition show, this would kind of be a picture of

Bill's mise-en-place.

Yeah.

Yes, correct.

This jug of cranaple juice, juice, this thing of sprite, and this bag of bugles.

I will also state I think Aaron has oversold my abilities in the kitchen.

I think I'm a fine cook, certainly no chef.

There is one post-it that has no accompaniming food.

That's right, I said accompaniming.

That is a post-it that says dragon puke.

What's going on?

Where's the dragon puke,

Bill?

I think it was still being made, and I don't know that we actually ever came out with the puke.

It was supposed to be some mini marshmallows melted in chocolate, but again, we're probably the same.

You're not a chocolatier, we know that's right, that's right.

So that got abandoned last minute.

Are you a marshmallero?

Not that either.

All right.

And then we move on to the rest of the buffet.

We have dragon scales.

This is exhibit B, which seemed to be a bag each of Doritos and Tostitos.

So corn chips become dragon scales.

That's pretty creative.

And then a very disturbing slow cooker labeled dragon turds.

Oh.

That got Joel Mann.

First time I've heard Joel Mann laugh this summer.

Of course, I had told him to mute himself, so no one will ever know what the laughter of Joel Mann sounds like.

The deal is, if you hear Joel Mann laugh, you turn into a wicker man and you're burned here in Maine at the end of the year.

So it's good for you.

What are dragon turds, Bill?

They're meatballs and barbecue sauce.

Meatballs?

Not grape jelly?

Not grape jelly.

You're in Ohio, is that correct?

Correct.

Delightful.

The delightful Midwest.

So, Erin, obviously your dispute is you find dragon turds to be gross for some reason?

Yes.

It wasn't necessarily the food itself.

It was the naming of it.

It's very Midwestern or Ohio.

to have a bag of frozen meatballs that you put in a slow cooker and cover in sauce and that's like an appetizer we serve.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Bill didn't even even make these meatballs?

He's not a meatballer, John.

He actually makes great meatballs, but I will tell you, I did ask him to try to simplify the menu so that he, again, would not be in the kitchen during the party, which has happened before.

I was hoping he would do some like easy things.

So he did accommodate me there.

Yeah.

So you're not, your, your dispute is not with Bill

just tossing some bugles into a bowl and frozen meatballs into a slow cooker rather than making some stuff from scratch.

Your dispute is solely with calling those meatballs turds.

I would have loved to see a little hardier fare considering most of the folks attending the party were adults.

There were only three children there and the rest, probably like 10 adults.

So I would have loved more of like a main course, but I was really trying not to be overly critical because.

Parties are stressful and I thought his menu was really creative.

And I want to say too that it was your mom who wrote out the post-it notes.

It was not you.

I did some of them.

You did some.

Okay.

It was shared work.

Okay.

I will also state there was another food item not presented here yet.

I called them Viking skewers, and they were basically like turkey ham sandwiches on a stick

with no bread.

So your contention is that there was some hardy fare there?

More hardy than has been put on so far, yes.

John, I'm no menu designer, but uh,

you could have thought about just going with uh dragon Costco sandwiches,

they're acceptable, maybe some of the dragon shrimp tray, you know, that shrimp tray they got there at Costco.

That's good.

Aaron, how were the turds?

I didn't eat them because it really grossed me out.

I have a thing where if something is called, you know, something that gives me like the ick, it kind of makes me not want to eat it.

So I got it think i had any of them erin your mom also contributed to the party she made a cake in the shape of a dragon i have a photo of that i'm looking at here as well now i presume you hate this as well

no i love it and my mom is very creative and growing up she is a big diyer and like no creative task is

um

she doesn't feel any creative task is like above her skill set set, so she's willing to, like, you know, really put herself out there and made this cake that was based on the stuffed animal that Casey got for his birthday.

And it's not perfect.

I'm sorry, are you talking about Silarius the Daystreamer?

The dragon child, correct?

Casey, Silarius, Day Dreamer, the dragon child,

daydreamer.

What did we decide?

Daytime, day streamer, daywalker.

Okay,

Silarius the day streamer,

Scion of the Dragon kind,

right?

His

Right.

Right.

So that I thought I presented this as evidence because I thought this was a really cool way to create food that was dragon themed that didn't

gross people out, specifically the adults in the room who were eating the food.

Were any of the adults grossed out?

Did they express, I mean, did people walk out in a rage?

No.

Your Honor, we're in Ohio, so people are very polite to your face and

would rarely criticize your food and your cooking in front of you.

I don't know what people said behind our back.

I did ask my grandmother, who's in her late 80s, who attended the party, what did you think of the food?

And

in a very Midwestern, nice way, she said, interesting.

It was interesting, which is kind of...

her way of saying I don't her casting you into the pit of hell.

Sure.

I can't politely comment on this and I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings to their face.

Right.

Right.

How do you feel about,

for lack of a better term, potty humor in general, Erin?

Don't love it.

However, since marrying Bill,

I have softened up a little, loosened up a little.

Because Bill's a big potty mouth?

Sure.

Yeah.

I do have a

potty.

theme track record to stand on yes that predates aaron

Want to hear about your potty tracks?

Well, I am part of a very prestigious group in Toledo, Old West End called the Party Poopers.

And every year when the Toledo Old West End has their annual parade, we follow the horses in the parade and

get rid of any excrement that they leave behind so other parade goers don't have to walk through it.

This is

an annual parade in Toledo?

Yes.

You pick up the poop afterwards and you and your band of merry men are called the party poopers.

Correct.

That's delightful.

How many years have you been doing that?

Over 10.

Wow.

Good job.

Yes.

Thank you.

I was going to say, yeah, we just celebrated our annual 10 years.

We actually started in 2013 or 2014, but with pandemic-related,

no parades, we had to black out a year or two.

No, you had to find other horses to pick up after.

Wow.

We should have.

Aaron, at what point were you aware that Bill was coming up with the dragon puke, dragon pee, dragon turds?

Those are the three that bother you, right?

Dragon scales, dragon claws.

Are those okay?

Those are okay.

I thought that was really creative with the bugles and the.

They look like claws.

You put them on your fingers and you act like a werewolf.

Yeah, I thought that was sweet.

Bill shared the menu with me maybe three days before the party

and

was really excited about it.

And I'm working on not

kind of immediately like shutting, you know, him down if there's something that kind of gives me the ick.

So I was like, let me let this sit for a couple days.

And I thought I could negotiate my way away from the dragon,

the

excrement.

Yeah.

That those two things

because I thought the claws and the scales were really cool.

And I was really excited to see how excited he was about that.

But the negotiations did not go well.

And then when his mom got into town, which she's amazing and I really won the mother-in-law lottery,

she and Bill are very similar and have very similar senses of humor.

So it kind of escalated.

And then they kind of doubled down on it because she shared Bill's enthusiasm for the menu and thought it was hilarious and was just tickled that this was going to be part of the party.

So I let it go at that point.

Your kids got a poop grandma?

Yeah, she's really cool.

She's a really cool grandma.

Jesse, I forgot that in Ohio, they have a mother-in-law lottery.

Mothers-in-law are randomly assigned.

If you pull a good one, it's a poop grandma.

I read the lottery in middle school.

That's right.

That's what that famous short story by Shirley Jackson's all about.

But even though you won the lottery, I mean, isn't it fair to say that it was two against one at this point?

You felt like you couldn't speak up any further.

That's correct.

And it didn't feel like

I would be,

you know, when you ask somebody to contribute to a party and you kind of split the labor,

it felt unfair to then be kind of poking holes in this really like big excitement balloon that that was growing and growing around this menu.

So,

yeah, I let it go.

And then,

or I wouldn't say let it go.

I kind of like pushed it down.

And then after the, after the party kind of thought this would be a great case for the judge so that we don't bump up against this every year.

You swallowed your own dragon puke and refused,

refused to externalize your feelings.

Aaron, you said that this is something you've been working on.

Is this something that has come up in other contexts where you have

too quickly criticized Bill's tendency to give you the ick?

That's a great question.

I think it's more about compromising in marriage and,

you know, reconciling both of our personalities and the things that bring us joy and excitement.

And I would say it's just me trying to be a good partner and not an, and we've listened to a lot of Judge John Hodman podcasts and

I've learned a lot about not yucking someone's yums.

And that's something we bring up a lot and try to support each other.

So I don't know.

Maybe Bill, you can, if you have an example, maybe I'm being too generous.

I mean, look, the court does state as settled law that people like what they like, but you have a right to not be nauseated, Erin.

Bill, when Erin was expressing her initial displeasure with this menu, why did you keep going?

That's also a good question.

I don't know.

And I think kind of to what Erin was saying, I don't know that I at the time realized how

severely she was taking it.

I think it was just kind of, it felt like an impassing comment, like, does it have to be this?

And I said, well, no, but I can't think of anything else.

It could be dragon doo-doo.

It could be dragon number twos.

It could be dragon deuces.

Probably could have called the punch dragon blood, but I don't know that that would have made her feel a lot better yeah actually i'm okay with that i mean i remember dragon pea wasn't on the initial menu it was when you and your mom got together and i was kind of making a joke this last pitch like do we really do you think people really want to eat dragon dragon turds or something like dragon urine and i specifically remember this your mom goes that's a great idea we can call the punch dragon pea and i said i think that's disgusting and she said i think it's hilarious.

And

that's probably when I started like stuffing down, you know, the feelings and just said, I'll address this afterwards.

I also think, to my defense, I have

several nieces, three of which were at the party.

And the previous Christmas, in which our son

received the dragon.

Silarius, the day streamer.

Yes.

Scion of dragon kind, first of his name.

He received the dragon.

He received the dragon.

One of my nieces received a poopy puppy toy that you feed little treats and then they poop out.

And all three of them thought that was hilarious.

And so

I don't know.

Maybe in the moment, boy talk did come up, but in my mind, it wasn't boy versus girl.

It was just little kids and some big kids.

find

poop jokes funny.

Bill, these nieces that you talked about that love that poopy puppy so much, how'd they feel about your dragon turds?

Well,

I did have two of them write statements.

And while they both agreed that it was funny,

one of them also felt that it was disgusting and should be banned from the USA.

And is definitely

on Aunt Erin's side in this ordeal.

And the other one is totally on my side, thought it was hilarious, and the food was yummy.

And they both thought the food was yummy.

So you have a 50% niece acceptance rate, approval rate, I should say.

I like to think that the third one also found it funny, but I have a feeling she did not.

She didn't

statement.

She can't rate yet.

Okay.

All right.

Erin, did you drink the dragon pee?

Yes or no?

How did it taste?

You didn't drink it?

No, I did not.

Would you have had some if it were called something else?

Like dragon blood or dragon elixir?

Oh, yeah.

I think that's fun.

Yeah.

I have a question.

Was the ultimate presentation of this menu in the form of post-it notes?

Yes, that was a stylistic choice by Bill and his mother.

Well, not entirely.

So.

Yeah, I wouldn't call it a choice either.

No, it was, it was, it was a last resort.

My intention was to actually make

little printed placards, but I had been fiddling with chocolate that morning, and I'm not a chocolate.

No,

that did not.

You're not a fiddler.

Yeah.

He's not a placardisto either.

So, so we ran out of time to actually do the initial plan, and so post-it notes became the alternative.

You ran out of time.

Okay.

Bill,

what do you got planned for?

birthday party number two?

I don't know what the theme is yet, so I don't know.

Well, Erin, how are you going to protect yourself from your husband for birthday party number two?

Well, that's why I'm here today, Your Honor.

I think,

depending on the outcome of this case, we'll have to think really

closely about the theme for the second birthday party, or maybe just no theme.

And oh, I've got a great theme, actually.

Number two.

Oh, God.

John, what does that mean?

What's that?

I just mean anything having to do with number two.

Now you're thinking no theme at all

other than birthday.

Sure.

I'm a little scared to be, to pick a theme.

And then if, so I think my fear is that this becomes a bit

and every year that this will become kind of a tradition to gross mom out.

And mom being me.

I can't believe I referred to myself in the third person in that way.

Yeah, it happens quick.

Oh, gosh.

Pretty soon you'll be calling children kiddos.

Yep.

Oh, the kiddos are doing this.

Oh, boy.

It's a slippery slope.

But yeah, that's my fear.

I don't want it to become a bit of gross, trying to gross me out every year and have that be something that brings Bill and Casey Daystar together.

And then I'm on the outside of it.

I don't want to be on the outside of a.

a joke like that.

Even if it's, you know, somewhat harmless to have this kind of food at a birthday party, like I could get over it.

I think my deeper fear is that

I

get kind of like pushed out of the group around his birthday party and around the menu.

Bill, why was this cool and fun?

Oh, because potty jokes are cool and fun.

And who?

Your child.

Thank you for using a deposition-style deposition-style delivery signal.

Let the record show that before answering, Bill put his hand over the microphone to talk to his attorney for a brief period of time

before coming back,

throwing the question directly back into my face like so much dragon turds.

I guess I mean to say,

let's go over the guest list one more time.

It's obviously you and Aaron, both of your moms.

They're three nieces of mystical age-changing properties.

And then

all the rest were adults.

Yeah, so her father, her sister, my brother, his wife, her grandmother, yeah.

And do you have positive evidence that any of these people loved eating the dragon turds and thought that was the funniest thing of all time?

Yes, I think both my mother would attest to that, as well as

my brother and sister-in-law's middle child, Josephine,

who provided a statement.

And the rest were just eating your turds to be polite.

Probably, yes.

Your son,

Silarius,

daystreamer, Scion of Dragonkind, first of his name, but known around the castle yard as Casey,

is one year old as of January, some months ago.

So now we're in the 18-month or so range.

What evidence could you possibly have that this child, look, I love your child.

All children are wonderful, but at the age of one, they're pretty dumb.

What evidence do you have?

Positive evidence that they loved the dragon turds?

I don't think I could provide that.

Aaron, Bill says that if I rule in his favor and you put him in charge of food, that you need to just let him be in charge of food.

Just let him do his thing.

You got through this one party where he served the dragon turds.

Do you have it in you to go through it again?

I don't believe so.

Bill, what does that mean when you ask to be just let alone?

Do you feel that Aaron is trying to control you or subdue you as those poor Dungeons and Dragons players tried to subdue that red dragon and three of them were charred to death immediately?

I think for lack of a better way to put it, yes.

You know, I think as far as a the birthday party coming together,

it really was Erin's idea on the theme and the decorations.

And she did so much.

This was kind of my piece of it.

And so I did want to take ownership of it.

You know, I love my son, loved celebrating him and wanted to put my own little personality stamp on it.

And I think this was my way to do it.

Erin, you heard what your husband said.

I'm going to ask you point blank as well.

Do you love your son?

I do, your honor.

All right.

Let the record reflect that she put her hand hand over the microphone and checked in with her attorney before answering the question.

Bill, if I were to rule in Aaron's favor,

she'd ask that I forbid you from serving any turds again produced by any animal, real or mythical.

How would that make you feel?

Just a little bit sad.

Just a little bit?

Just a little bit.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

So, Aaron, if the theme isn't number two, what theme are you thinking of of for this second birthday?

I haven't thought about it that much.

You know, we're just kind of like living nap to nap in our house and kind of depends what he's into at the time.

Right now, he's really into

a animated movie about toys

and one specific spaceman character in that movie.

So perhaps something along that lines.

I think it depends.

He is developing a personality and there are things I could imagine at his second birthday that would make him really excited, like a light, you know, a huge balloon of that, you know, spaceman from the movie, the story about toys.

I really appreciate your effort to not mention Toy Story.

I should say.

Oh, I thought she was, I thought she's talking about the movie Toys.

Toys, the Robin Williams and L.L.

Cool J movie?

Toys?

Yeah, that's live action, but the fact that it's a sort of nightmare escape gives it an animated feel.

Yeah, that's true.

Bill, have you considered the possibility that there be no theme at all?

I mean, you thought about that for the first birthday.

Whatever Erin decides as far as theme, and if she wants me to do food grade, if not, then so be it.

But if that is my lane and that is what I'm in charge of, I would like creative control.

Aaron, do you think that you would have avoided this subject if you had spoken up for your nausea earlier?

No, I think Bill knows me well enough to know that I would be apprehensive about that type of food labeling.

I think he knew, like, this is not going to be something

Aaron's really excited about, but he was really excited about it.

And

yeah, I don't know if that's a good answer or not.

I mean, I'll be honest with you.

I don't love that answer because saying that Bill should know how I feel.

You know, spouses should be sensitive to the other person, but at the the end of the day, we're individual human beings in our own right, and we have to speak up for ourselves.

You know, I think waiting for him to do the right thing without telling him what you need and want, I don't think you need to wait three days if you're feeling gross about something.

That's even before I go in and consider my verdict.

But Bill, at the same time,

you felt the dynamic, you felt resistance, and you used your own mom to shore you up to get to get to the turds where you wanted to be.

Do you think that was a great idea?

In hindsight, probably not.

Okay, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go into the slow cooker of my chambers and I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Aaron Bill, did you know that the movie Toys was directed by Barry Levinson, the director of Diner?

and the natural?

Did not.

Was that movie?

Like, I saw that movie in the movie theater.

Was it as totally nuts as I remember it being?

Jennifer is nodding.

Yes.

Aaron, how are you feeling about your chances in the case?

Not great, to be honest.

Not great.

Why is that?

I,

you know, there's some court rulings in the past about kind of like letting your spouse enjoy their little weirdsy things.

And I'm worried that this is going to be quantified as kind of a little weirdsy.

It did no harm to anyone, and it's just a birthday party.

Let Bill kind of do his goofy little thing.

Bill, you're clearly irrepressibly goofy.

You've shown that throughout this case.

Thank you.

How are you feeling about your chances right now?

I feel okay, but not great.

It's genuinely possible based on your testimony in this case that you are actually not a goofball, but rather just a very serious poop enthusiast.

I think both can be true.

Okay, fair enough.

Do you think you're going to win this one?

I'm hopeful, cautiously optimistic.

We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

Hi, I'm Amber Nash, the voice of Pam Poovy on the groundbreaking FX animated comedy Archer.

Remember Archer?

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That's why I started rephrasing an Archer Rewatch podcast on maximumfun.org.

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The wizards answer eight by eight.

The cornclaves call to demonstrate their arcane gift, their single spell.

They number 64

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a conflagration

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and 62 they soon shall be, as one by one the wizards die

till one remains to reign on high

join us for taz royale an oops all wizards battle royale season of the adventure zone every other thursday on maximumfun.org or wherever you get your podcasts

Judge Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from the case.

Let's hear about this book.

Yes, So I have a friend who is an actual full-time Mainer named Margaret Grace Myers.

She used to work at Books Are Magic down in Brooklyn, but then she moved home to Maine where she has been working on this book for a long time.

And it is finally being published.

And it could not come at a more appropriate time.

It is a history of sex education in the USA.

And it is called appropriately The Fight for Sex Ed, The Century-Long Battle Between Truth and Doctrine.

And it is out today from the the Beacon Press.

Now, Margaret Grace Myers, that's the name of the author.

So smart, so brilliant.

Jesse, you met her.

She came by after our show in Maine.

Yeah, she was super cool.

Yeah, super cool, super cool, super funny.

But this is like, but this is serious.

And also, she's seriously passionate about sex aid and the history of sex, sex aid, sex ed and the history of sex ed and the fight for sex ed.

I've had the pleasure of reading an early copy and it's amazing.

And it's not just a cultural history of the controversies and wild battles between public educators and religious zealots in this country but it's a timely reminder of how simple and fact-based sex education saves lives on so many different levels of our society so please go to your bookstore and say loudly i want sex ed by margaret grace myers i'm sure they'll find it there for you And hey, we've got two new episodes of ePlurobismata, one that just came out and one that's about to come out.

This is the show that Janet Vardy and I host, where we cover all the state symbols of America's states and commonwealths and districts and territories.

The one that just came out is from America's Dairyland, Wisconsin.

Coming up next, we have Kentucky, where the state dance is clogging.

The state horse is fast horse.

I think they call them thoroughbred.

I thought you meant, you know, that

Bob Odenkirk sketch from Mr.

Show, teaching by billiards with Van Hammersley.

Dan's giving me the thumbs up.

And here comes, here comes Mr.

Fast Horse, not like his name at all, real slow.

Like,

well, the state motto of Kentucky is something dumb in Latin, probably.

And the state beverage, actually,

infuriatingly is not bourbon, but milk.

Wow.

Yeah, that one made me mad.

Imagine going on a road trip with two people who will not shut up about all the fascinating state trivia of the state you're passing through.

Well, those people are me and Janet Varney.

And that gives you an idea of what you get when you download and subscribe and follow and listen to ePluribus Motto on maximumfund.org or wherever you get your podcasts.

Jesse, what have you got going on these days?

Well, you may have noticed that some weeks ago in the Judge Sean Hodgman feed, we dropped an episode of my comedy podcast, Jordan Jesse Go.

I did notice and I enjoyed it a lot.

Thank you.

I hope that folks out there who enjoyed it will remember to go subscribe to Jordan Jesse Go so they can get, and get this, John, a new episode of the program every week, not just one episode in the Judge John Hodgman feed every decade or so.

You mean there's another way?

There's another way.

You can just search for Jordan Jesse Go in your podcast feed.

We also have on Bullseye right now.

a wonderful interview with your friend and mine, Elizabeth Gilbert.

Yeah.

Liz has a new book out that is wonderful and moving and beautiful and

funny despite being about really serious stuff, just as Liz is in her own life.

And I would remind you that in a completely unrelated move that happened months after we are a month after she came in to be on Bullseye,

she

heard us talking about Al Otrolado on Judge John Hodgman, to which she listens.

Hi, Liz.

Hi, Liz.

Said Said she would like to offer a $25,000 matching grant to Alotrolado for donations from our listeners.

So please go to alotrolado.org slash let's do something and make a donation for direct services to migrants on both sides of the U.S.-Mexico border.

They do amazing work.

And I'm saying right now, John,

I'm saying.

Sign up for a monthly.

Sign up for a monthly with Al Otrolado.

Give them 10 bucks a month.

You know, you you got it.

Your local public radio and television stations and El Otrolato are worth your $10 a month right now.

Yeah, like maybe it's a good time to think about, like, oh, do I really need to pay $12 a month to, say, Paramount Plus?

Why not take that money back and give it to someone who really needs it?

El Ultrolato, PBS, NPR, wherever you like.

You already watched all the jackass movies.

That's right.

You've seen them.

You've already seen every instance of our friend Lance Bangs vomiting.

That's right.

He won't vomit any further.

It's out of his contract now.

He's done.

Anyway, it's allotrolado.org slash let's do something.

And go check out that interview with Liz, both on the Bullseye podcast feed and on the Bullseye YouTube channel.

And let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So

as you know, I alluded earlier and you heard Joel Mann's gruff responses, though not his laughter.

Are you still there, Joel?

I'm here.

Okay, great.

As you can hear, I am in my summer chambers here at WERU

FM 89.9 in Orland, Maine, also available on the internet at weru.org, because I am in Maine right now.

And in the end, you know, I have a son who's a whole human being in his own right, who's an adult now.

But when we first started coming to Maine, he's got a summer birthday, right?

Which is hard, right?

Because, you know,

summer birthday kids, their friends aren't necessarily around.

Maybe you've gone away.

Maybe they've all gone away.

It's a little easier when they're in school and you can, you know, bring cupcakes to school or whatever it is you do.

So you want to make your summer birthday really special for your kid.

And as soon as we got here, That is when our son started coming up with themes

for his birthday party.

Now, understand, he was not one years old.

By the time we were up here, we're talking about birthday parties nine, 10, 11 years old, 12 years old.

And suddenly themes became very important.

And the first theme, I believe, was Robin Hood, which felt quite random.

The second theme was less random, and I believe it was Minecraft.

I mean, I remember it was Minecraft.

How I remember it, I don't know, because I spent days and days and days

assembling and cardboard boxes into large cubes, like waist-high cubes, and then painting them with stencils that I had made to make them look like Minecraft cubes, spray painting them with different cans of spray paint in the garage

until I would faint and then recover maybe two hours later.

It was hard work.

I was out there late at night spray painting those boxes.

And was I given thought to what are we going to do with these boxes afterward?

Yeah, those Minecraft boxes stayed around for years after that.

I think it was the next year

that he said he wanted to have a Game of Thrones themed

birthday party.

I'm like, I think you're 11.

I know you haven't read nor watched Game of Thrones.

And if you've watched it, that's a problem.

But I don't think any of the other people your age around here who might be coming to this party are going to understand

all of the psychosexual implications of the Game of the Thrones universe.

As I have often said, that's one of my favorite fantasy novels because it's a fantasy novel about a fantasy world that you would never fantasize about living in because it's cruel and mean and harsh.

That was my birthday present to him that year, that monologue.

I think we came up with something.

I think we came up with the 80s, and I made chicken nuggets.

You're going to read about

one of the more ill-fated themes of his birthday parties in my book, Vacation Land, available in paperback now.

And then a year arrived when I said, What is the theme?

And

I took a deep and loving breath because I knew something was going to come along that was going to require a lot of time and imagination and expense.

And he said, I don't know.

How about just birthday?

How about we just have a birthday party?

And the minute that there was no theme anymore, I have to confess to you, I was profoundly relieved.

In no way was I disappointed.

In no way did I feel like my son's life and like childhood was slipping through my fingers as he became an adult.

I was just like, thank you.

Let's just have a cake, an ice cream.

But I was profoundly relieved when the theme wasn't there.

All of which I tell this heartwarming story to say, why were you people even doing what you were doing?

Oh, my sweet summer children, my new young parents, you don't need to have a theme for a one-year-old birthday party.

The party is their one.

It's the first one.

That's the theme.

Number one.

And I'm not talking about Dragon Pea either.

I'm talking about this is it, a chance really to celebrate with your family, your,

presuming you have good relationships with them and you seem to.

you know, with your parents and the uncles and the extended family, the people who have supported you, maybe the people who've had experience raising kids of their own.

And this little one-year-old doesn't care, does not care about Dragon Bee yet.

Will they?

Oh, yes.

There will be a time

when

a crockpot full of dragon turds is going to be exactly what

Dreamweaver, son of Mog, wants.

But it didn't have to happen this way.

And I urge you

to think carefully before committing to a theme again in the future.

Not least because you want to get on board together

in terms of

how far the theme goes and what the theme is going to entail and how much work you want to put into it and also how you're not going to gross each other out.

But also, Bill, you got to do a better job than post-it notes.

There will be a dragon theme birthday in the future, presuming that your son continues to be interested in dragons, which they may not.

But I think that if you are invited to create food for a party that has a theme and you want to get creative with it, you need to plan ahead so that you are actually

doing that.

This is a chance for you to be practicing your

hobbitish calligraphy.

You know what I mean?

The weird writing on the sign on Bilbo's door, birthday party business only.

like get some parchment do it up

you know empty those bugles into the

into the bowl i know that it wasn't party time yet i think a lot of your ideas were clever i think i think dragon claws for bugles is really fun do you know what i mean and if you had if you had a party full of like five-year-olds six-year-olds who are running around pretending to be dragons with bugles on their fingers, that's a wonderful party.

But in this case, it was all just kind of of a mismatch, right?

It was like, no offense, Bill, but like

a B plus B execution of some ideas that were pretty good, but like a C minus reading of the room, which is that the child who supposedly is interested in dragons isn't interested in dragons per se.

Like they're just too little.

And the people that you are feeding and entertaining don't want to eat your dragon turds.

They just don't.

They're grown-ups.

So it was just the wrong year for a dragon turd party, which is the first, the title of the first book in my fantasy series that I'm going to be writing as soon as I get out of here.

So I'm not here just to scold you both.

I mean,

these are the kind of

mistakes and adjustments you make when you are learning how to be a parent.

I just think that you need to offer yourself some grace.

Don't make things harder for yourself than you have to yet.

And again, I will reiterate, parenting is a thing where both people have to be 100% on board.

It's like the same, like when you were choosing Silarius'

name, you had to both be 100% on board.

You can't negotiate that one.

You have to both agree.

And if you don't want to eat dragon turds, that's fair and you can say it.

And Bill, obviously, It's reasonable, even if you have been charged with making the meal.

It's reasonable to hear your spouse, your beloved one, say, I don't like this one element of it, and be like, all right, I'll make an adjustment.

Rather than turning to backup from your own mom,

that's not a great dynamic.

You know, it happens.

But it's like,

Aaron should come first here.

So.

What does this mean going forward?

Well, first of all, there will be no more turds without Erin's approval on any menu.

In this regard, I am ruling in her favor.

I have to say that

they were,

it's an interesting idea

and a funny idea.

And, you know, could have been a little bit better executed with some delicious meatballs of your own making.

But yeah, I'd eat those frozen meatballs in barbecue sauce.

I'd give them a try.

But I'm a weirdo.

I love eating turds.

If this were Halloween, that's a perfect thing to do.

A dragon-themed Halloween party, there you go.

Gross them out.

But for a first birthday party, that was a miss, I'm afraid, Bill.

And I think that you need to make sure that Aaron is on board with future.

I think you have fun ideas, and I think you just need to make sure that Aaron's on board with future innovations.

Still, I am haunted.

If not dragon turds, what would those meatballs be?

Let us know in the comments if you've got better ideas for what he should have called that crock pot of meatballs in a dragon theme.

Be curious to know what you think.

Those are for the listeners.

But for you, Bill and Aaron, I'm ruling in Aaron's favor here.

And I would say that

theme number two

will not be number two, it will be birthday party.

And then once you start getting into theme number three,

then I feel like Silarus,

Dreamweaver,

Scion of Dragonkind, first of his name,

will be starting to express some theme preferences that he will be able to really enjoy as it being his party.

But I think you owe yourselves a birthday party that is for you and your family and obviously for your son,

but is not necessarily themed.

And when you pick this up again, at birthday party three or four or whenever it is, then I think you need to be in closer consultation and start earlier with fun, wacky-themed foods, for example, so that you can make, you have time to make

those adjustments that you need to make in order to make sure everyone is served well, Bill.

And also, you have time to make nice signs instead of post-its.

Okay, that's my verdict.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Bill, how do you feel right now?

A little bit disappointed, but I think the judge is wise and fair as usual.

Do you think this is going to

help preserve your marriage?

So your relationship with your wife is not forever associated with doo-doo?

Yes.

Erin, how do you feel?

I feel relieved that we have a path forward for birthday parties,

you know, two through hopefully many after that.

Well, Aaron and Bill, thanks so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

We're going to have Swift Justice in just a second.

First, our thanks to Old House42 on Reddit for naming this week's episode Dragonian Law.

You can join the conversation at r slash maximum fun there on Reddit.

That's also where we ask for those title suggestions.

You can always go and suggest titles.

It's always one of the most popular threads on our Reddit every single week.

You can go suggest titles or just enjoy the ones that others suggest.

You can find evidence and photos from the show on our Instagram, which is judgejohnhodgman.

We're also on TikTok and YouTube, where you can watch video of this program at judgejohnhodgman pod.

Go and pull your phone out and pull out those YouTube and TikTok apps and hit subscribe.

Even if you are usually an audio listener, it's fun to go check in and you hitting subscribe helps us with the program.

Speaking of YouTube, Jesse, it's time for Y Cutwa.

That's why Y C O T W, YouTube Comment of the Week.

This week's YouTube comment of the week comes from

the Jeff Jeff 9424, who left the following the following comment underneath our recent episode.

Wait, the Jeff Jeff

Jeff

9424, the one and only,

or the one and one of 9,424 of them.

At the Jeff Jeff9424, left the following comment on our recent episode about a maybe imaginary friend.

That episode was called Texas Hold Him in Contempt, and they wrote, I can't believe the pop culture reference you chose wasn't any of the bits from Sports Night.

when Dan insists he didn't sleep with Bobby at a hotel in Spain and in fact has never been to Spain.

Me personally, I completely believe that I didn't make a sports night reference because I don't even know what episode that was, but I do love Josh Molina and I commit to making a sports night reference in the future.

And hey, if you're watching our full, yeah, it's a great show.

It's a great show.

It's a great show, right, Jesse?

That was the sound of me and Linda Holmes going, yes.

Yeah, that's right.

I'm a Josh Charles stan, by the way.

I've interacted with him, let's say, twice on Twitter during the years when Twitter wasn't awful.

And And every both times I was like, yes, that's Josh Charles from Schwartz Knight.

We're talking about the Baltimore Orioles or something.

Yeah, he's a big Baltimore Orioles fan.

I ran into him on an Amtrak train from Philadelphia.

And he was traveling from Baltimore.

Well, I got on in Philadelphia.

He was already on the train traveling from Baltimore.

He'd gone to see a game.

There you go.

And he was so nice.

And Robert Guillaume was on that show.

And everybody was so good on that show.

But hey, if you are watching our full episodes on YouTube right now and you don't like my obscure cultural reference or think you can think of a better one, why don't you drop it right there in the comments?

Maybe I'll respond to you.

Maybe I'll be schooled for once.

Anyway, if you leave a comment, it does help people find the show and helps us learn what you're interested in.

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Why don't you go to YouTube this very moment?

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Please go and visit over there.

It really does help people discover the show.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode engineered by Jim Pruse

at Ambient Studios in Cincinnati, Ohio.

Our social media manager is Dan Telford.

The podcast is edited by AJ McKeon.

Our video editor is Daniel Speer.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

You ready for some swift justice, John?

Yes, I am.

Lich McConnell.

Cool name.

Yeah, that's like a Dungeons and Dragons senator

says.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If my partner is giving guests a tour of the house, they think it's rude to not show the bedroom.

I think our bedroom is private.

Guests do not need to peer into it, especially if it's on a different floor from the main part of the house.

What do you say, Judge Hodgman?

Well, okay, so if the pronoun they there refers to the guests, the guests that are being shown around think that it's rude to not see your

most personal room in your life, then they should not be your guests anymore because they're rude.

If the they there refers to your partner, however, who feels an obligation to show off

your bedroom that you share and sleep in and hug and kiss and fart in, and you don't like that, then I think they need to listen to you and not their inner anxiety.

It's fine to keep certain areas of the house private when giving a tour.

All they need to do is say,

That's our main bedroom right there, but it's a mess right now.

So let's just move on to the solarium.

Whatever you do, always move on to the solarium.

Hey, you know, last month it was National Hot Dog Day, and we asked for cases about hot dogs.

I dare say beefs about Franks.

But YouTube user Goblin Girl Studio said, ah, dang, I missed hot dog day.

It's 365 days before I can enjoy another hot dog.

No, Goblin Girl Studio.

Today's a good day too, because it's never too late to enjoy a hot dog.

And it's never too late to send us your cases about hot dogs.

Do you think that Joey Chestnut should still be banned from Nathan's hot dog eating competition?

Do you have a dispute against the idea of a hot dog eating contest altogether?

Do you have a controversial condiment?

Do you have a way of eating hot dogs?

Do you eat your hot dogs like they did at the World's Fair with little white gloves?

I don't even need to have a dispute.

I just need to hear your thoughts, your concerns, your questions, your theories about hot dogs.

Nothing about sandwiches.

Hot dogs I'm talking about.

Your preferences, Joel, you like a red hot or a regular natural casing?

Natural, natural casing for Joel.

I like a red hot.

In any case, we want to hear all about your hot dog beefs.

Your all beef, hot dog beefs should go to maximumfun.org slash jjho, or you can even write me an email at hodgman at maximumfun.org.

And I think that's all we want to hear about, right?

Jesse, only hot dogs from here on out.

Look, if you got a case about something else, just send it to us at maximumfund.org slash jjho.

We don't care if it's big or small.

You've heard us say it on the program.

We mean it.

You've heard the cases on this show.

Just send yours in, you know?

Yeah, like we don't care if it's big or small.

It could be hot dog size or cocktail frank size.

You decide.

Indeed.

As long as it's in a slow cooker full of grapefruit

jelly.

Oh, boy.

That's some dragon turds right there.

I kind of like that.

All right.

Maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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