Van Freaks Roadshow in Durham

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne, here with Judge John Hodgman.

We just finished our first leg of the incredible Judge John Hodgman Road Court Tour.

We had a wonderful time dispensing justice in New York City, Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., and Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

And now we're getting ready to go back out on the road for our shows in Ann Arbor, in Madison, and St.

Paul, Minnesota.

This week's episode was recorded during our last tour live in Durham, North Carolina.

We talked about local trees and friendships and a romantic partnership classic.

My fiancé brushes her teeth in our bed.

In bed.

We had such a good time in Durham, and we can't wait to keep the road court going.

If you're near Madison and St.

Paul, get your tickets now at maximumfund.org slash events.

If you have disputes for Madison, St.

Paul, or Ann Arbor, go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

But now, without further ado, let's get to the stage at the Carolina Theater in Durham, North Carolina.

North Carolina, you came to us seeking justice, and we are here to deliver it.

The court of Judge John Hodgman is now in session.

Let's bring out our first set of litigants.

Please welcome to the stage Steph and David.

Tonight's case, double fig demnitry.

Steph brings the case against her partner, David.

Steph says the fig trees in their backyard have got to go, but David wants to save them.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

I'm the last

leaf on the tree.

The autumn took the rest, but they won't take me.

I'm the last

leaf on the tree.

When the autumn wind rolls.

There's always a second verse.

They're already gone.

Flutter to the ground, cause they can't hang on.

There's nothing in the world that I ain't seen.

I greet all the new ones that are coming in green.

I'm the last

fig on the tree.

Ben of Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Steph and David, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever.

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he himself is a bit of a crab apple?

Yes.

Yes.

Instead of a fig.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

You're rolling your eyes every night at my Tom Waits impersonations that I am performing with incredible love.

That's a hint to both of you.

Well, I love crab apples.

And then you come in with

some kind of crab apple?

I said you're a crab apple.

I love you very much.

I love you too.

Steph and David, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment.

One of yours favors.

Can either of you name not only the artist, but the specific song that I sang as I entered this courtroom?

Let's try you, Steph.

What's your guess?

The Last Leaf on the Tree by Tom Waits.

Hmm.

Last Leaf on the Tree by Tom Waits, you say.

Interesting guess.

Definitely writing it down.

What about you, David?

We'll find out in a moment if you're right.

That feels like a safe guess to me.

You're going to guess the same thing.

It's kind of not fair.

Probably not fair.

Probably should have done it by secret ballot now that I realize.

David, if it helps, we've been on tour for a few weeks, so it can't be 75 of the Tom Waits songs.

We have eliminated a few so far.

I knew it was Tom Waits.

Oh, did you?

What tipped my hand?

Listening to a podcast?

Listening to the podcast.

Put down last leaf on the tree.

Well, guess what?

Both guesses are correct.

Nullify.

Can either of you name the album that it comes from?

No.

Anyway, let's move along then.

All guesses are wrong.

And Steph and David, who comes here to seek justice in my courtroom?

I do.

Just let the record show that Steph said I do.

What is the nature of the dispute?

Well, we have two

big fig trees in our yard, as I'm sure most of the audience also does, because this is North Carolina.

And they're in our backyard.

Is that true?

A lot of fig trees.

Is that true?

Is it true?

This is all information.

Yeah.

Because Steph wants to destroy her trees.

Right.

And if I knew they were the last two fig trees in North Carolina, that might influence my decision.

Yeah.

But now that I know that they're practically weeds here in the triangle,

I might make a different decision.

Okay, so why do you hate these trees so much?

Well, one.

Who's the villain from the Lorax?

Yeah, the

Onceler.

Yeah, you're the Onceler.

Where are your gloves?

I don't know, but I could barely get through reading the Lorax without crying.

That's how much I love trees.

I once had a screaming match with a developer who had called a guy with a chainsaw to cut down a tree

in a neighboring yard and save the tree for a few more days.

So

definitely love trees.

Your feeling about trees when it comes to your neighbors is tree for thee, not for me.

Yeah, there you go.

Well, it was a little bit on my property.

Okay.

So a little for me.

Trees that are on your property.

That not only are on your property, but rely on your property for their life essence, the birth of your property.

You want to destroy them.

I do two of them, yeah.

Okay, what's wrong with these two?

Well, that's.

Are they bad apples?

Yeah, well, one, I mean, okay.

The figs that they make taste bad.

So that's number one.

Bad tasting figs.

Yeah.

All right.

Okay, and I like figs, but this type of fig is bad.

And I think David will not dispute me that they taste bad.

But two, they're really big.

They take up a lot of the space in the fenced-in part of our backyard.

The trees are the figs.

Are they those big, gross, trash figs?

I mean, that's how I feel about them.

Do you dispute that they taste bad, these figs?

These figs are gross, right, David?

They don't taste like optimal, they're not.

I mean, like

you

make good things with them, but

they're not really good figs.

What can you make from these figs?

I mean, I

cook them in a pan with some butter.

They're good.

You can caramelize them a little.

It's good.

I put them on some baked goods.

It's good.

I make jam.

Jam is really good.

Yeah.

Do you have any jam with you?

I do.

Let the record show.

Let the record show.

Now,

it it should be very clear that I knew ahead of time that David had fig jam What I did not know I was thinking to myself John is that fig jam in your pocket or

What I did not know is that he did not have it in his jeans pocket

Specifically his front jeans pocket

Thank you for warming it up

Got to release the essential oils, John

of the jeans.

Let me open this up here.

Can I say one thing about the fig jam?

Yeah.

Is there a warning before I open it?

No, no.

I just, this fig jam is the absolute pinnacle of what the figs can achieve.

This is the best.

This is them at their best.

This is the best, like if we're going to steel man the argument here, this is the best that will ever be got.

So in other words, it's all downhill from here.

It is all downhill.

So if this jam tastes like butt,

then I'm going to rule in your favor because this is as good as it gets in the jam department.

Right.

But I mean we have to balance, you know, my arguments, we have to balance, you know, how good is this jam and how much work is this jam with how, what the trees are doing.

Now, just a question before I eat something you gave me out of a jar.

Yeah.

This isn't going to hurt me, right?

No, no.

I mean, we've already established I've already died.

It's a New York Times recipe.

It's a New York Times, I know.

Did you collect them from the ground?

Did they fall in manure or anything?

No, no.

You picked these from the tree?

These are like the primest figs from our tree.

These are figs picked directly from a tree.

Oh, no.

He doesn't work

his butt off to

get these, get them before the birds get them.

Like, it is a whole process.

Pick fresh off the tree, just like in iClaudius.

Yeah.

the best they could possibly be.

And think about it.

You people haven't watched iClaudius.

You got to get to.

Judge Hodgman is consuming the jam.

It's a lot happening.

Judge Hodgman, can you describe the notes?

It's the last

fig on the tree.

It has melancholy undertones.

Would you describe the flavor as mannered?

A surprising formal accomplishment in the guise of a gutter snipe growl.

That's how I would describe it.

Wow.

Yeah.

Also better than the garbage that's in a Fig Newton.

But, you know, I hate Fig Newtons because they're named after Newton, Massachusetts, Brookline's ancient rival.

All of that's true.

Is Is there some cinnamon in this?

No, I mean, lemon and rosemary.

Lemon and rosemary.

Yeah.

You know, the fig should stand on its own.

And it can't.

Don't try to dress up a fig to save these trees.

So,

do you want to share why there's lemon and rosemary in it?

Do you remember?

Well, I mean, it doesn't.

I mean, it does have a lot of flavor to it.

You gotta...

But it's a good vehicle.

It's pretty figgy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I would say this fig jam is fine.

It's fine figs.

It's fine.

It's fine.

It's fine.

That's what I say.

They're fine figs.

Is there another reason that you want to get rid of the trees?

I mean,

it's a lot of work to get to the point of the fig.

It's almost like he's compelled to harvest every.

I'm just going to make an immediate ruling right now.

No one's going to make this jam again.

So

your argument that it's going to take a lot of work to get to the jam stage is no longer, that doesn't, has no merit, okay?

That's moot.

All right, good.

I'm trying to decide whether you're going to cut these trees down or not.

Oh, dang.

You understand what I'm saying?

That's the stakes.

David, why shouldn't you cut down the trees?

I mean, it's like a gift from nature to us, and like, we're going to reject it.

A fruit-producing tree we're going to spurn, and we're going to cut it down.

We're going to kill these trees just because they weren't sweet enough for us.

The audience is is on David's side.

I know.

It's just.

It just doesn't seem right.

And I'm going to.

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

This is not how things are decided in this court.

But just out of curiosity, I did say the audience is on David's side, but to be fair, a smattering.

Are there some quiet tree haters in this group?

Well.

Wow.

Because they know.

You know how it is.

They have their own giant fig tree that is taking up their yard, that they're just sick of it.

Do, let me, just to get a sense of where the audience stands.

If you feel that they should get rid of these trees, don't applaud.

Just start chanting, kill the trees.

Kill the trees, kill the trees.

Kill the trees.

First of all, I love our audience, Jesse.

Thanks for reassuring me that you'll never have any rhythm.

Second of all, that was quite an outpouring for kill the trees.

People love to chant, unfortunately.

But I do sense some, I get a sense that here in the research triangle, Durham Chapel Hill in Raleigh, that maybe these trees are not considered to be so hot.

Would you say?

Do they cause problems?

Do they choke out other trees and plants or anything?

They're just like really common and they produce lots of fruit.

Right.

And they all kind of fall to the the ground.

It's like bit of a mess.

And I think the most common variety is the variety we have, which is like

a brown turkey fig.

Brown turkey fig.

Yeah, and they're

like,

why did I have to resort to swearing

when all I had to say was the brown turkey fig?

Boom.

Welcome to the Durham Farmers Market.

And I offered you a stewed goat apple.

Guano pear for you, sir?

I just say, one, it's the only, there are trees that take up our fenced in backyard.

So our kids literally cannot like play in the fenced part of the backyard.

Because these trees are there.

Because the trees are there and they have all knobbly roots in the ground and they're dropping all these figs.

And they basically, it's just like moist.

And we have a giant scuppernong grapevine that, of course, we've eaten all of those grapes because they're delicious.

And we have a bunch of other fruit producing stuff on our in our yard that right is yummy and good and worth it but these trees are just taking up the space that the kids could play how old are your kids um one is four and a half and then the other one is about to be eight months old oh okay yeah so they're they want a place to play and you you're a little concerned that they're gonna slip on a turkey brown and hit their head but knock it open on a knobbly root they just won't even go in i mean it's not even my concern i try to encourage them to go in there and they just won't even go in there because that's how overgrown it is.

They sound like scary haunted trees and I believe.

It is.

Yeah, and I believe you actually have them decorated for Halloween.

Is that correct?

No.

Oh, well, do you have, you have some decorations you wanted to share with us, some evidence?

Yeah, that's fun.

This is your house?

Terrifying.

Oh.

That's right.

That looks so let the record show and we'll share these images on the show page of maximumfund.org and on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman you have a scary giant what looks looks like a cat skeleton or something?

Red skeleton?

Is it like a devil skeleton?

Devil skeleton.

It's got goat horns.

That's what the

okay.

So, what is the point of this evidence other than to show off to your neighbors?

So, so, Steph.

It looks good.

It looks like you've built a graveyard out of packing pallets.

Yeah.

Well, I'll just say, so I don't, being it, we met, we're environmentalists, we met through environmentalism.

I don't want to just cut down these trees and not replace them with anything.

I don't think I can, in good conscience, cut down these trees and not plant new trees in their place.

Global warming, blah, blah, blah.

Sure.

So

I've read the Paris Treaty.

Exactly.

I understand your language.

I'm so tired of environmentalists telling me global warming blah blah blah.

Exactly.

Exactly.

So I want to plant two new trees and they can be any like fruit tree that you want

in the front yard so that the kids can play in the backyard and we get rid of the brown turkey figs and actually have something that is yummy and tasty that you know i would actually want to like pick and eat have you considered cutting just one down so the other would feel bad and threatened and lonely it's they're too it's not enough it's it's kind of

it's it's really small back there and you know david is worried we do this we do a different display every year and that's how we attract trick-or-treaters And so this is the one for this year.

And

you could say that.

So why are we looking, though, at your front yard when the issue is your haunted backyard?

So the figs are, we have a very small kind of side yard, which is where the fig trees are.

Okay.

And Steph does not want to plant trees there because she wants to have that space open.

And the only other place to plant them would be in the front yard,

obstructing our palette, so to say, for our

Halloween palette.

Our Halloween display thing.

on either side of that display is power lines.

So, if we planted a tree underneath either of those lines, that would be a problem eventually.

So, we're talking about no trees in the front yard at all.

I think it would be hard, and you know, maybe it could be worked out.

But my proposition is like, why not just plant more trees and keep trees?

Like,

more trees,

not

sperm.

Kill the trees, kill the trees.

Cute, sorry.

So what is your proposition exactly?

How would you want me to rule if I were to rule in your favor?

More trees?

I don't cut down the fig trees and plant fruit trees also.

Where?

You know.

The backyard is...

The backyard is already a crowded terror escape, according to Steph.

I mean,

I don't know.

And then where would your children play?

Here in the front yard

amidst the skeletons?

I mean, they'd be in the lines,

right in the front, anywhere that they can kick a ball right into the street and chase after it, like in a Stephen King book?

If we found an understory tree, there's a huge tree that's off to the side in this picture.

And so, something that would do okay with like a little bit of shade, maybe we could make work.

So, we just have to find the right thing that he is amenable to.

That's my belief.

How long?

And also, what is art without constraints, right?

If we have the new tree,

if we have the new tree, then we just work that into the Halloween.

David, how would you feel if I were to order these trees be destroyed?

I'd feel bummed to see these fine trees doing their best to make us fruit, like march to their execution.

It would break my heart to have to cut them down because I know I have to do it.

Are you saying these trees can walk around?

Proverbially.

Because that would change my opinion dramatically.

These trees could be marched anywhere.

I would be a little concerned for you.

Judge Hodgman, proverbially, as in the proverb of the walking trees.

I was just going to say, I know I'd have to be the one to cut them down, and I'd have a pretty heart.

It would break my heart to slay my trees.

Steph, why would you make your husband do your dirty work?

Well,

the only, I mean, we could wait to do it.

The only reason why

he might feel like he would have to do it.

Like, I'm glad to do it.

It's just that the reason why he does most of the, like, getting the fruit and the gardening right now is because I am breastfeeding our child.

So, that's right.

I heard from the audience.

Still not as big of a flaws line as constraints upon art.

You need an editor.

You need to know the rules before you can break them.

But you agree, I mean,

that that

is why.

But so I'm

going to alternate between breastfeeding and cutting down the trees.

I'm glad to do the work in terms of like taking

taking down the trees, just have to find the right time and then the right time to plant it.

But I will need his help because of just the division of labor.

And that is part of my dispute because if you're feeling compelled to get a trend.

How long does it take to cut down a fig tree?

And filling up

a season with all the figs.

Are these trees big enough that it would be safe for you to cut down the tree yourselves?

And who's going to get all of those roots out of the ground?

It's going to be hard.

Have you consulted an arborist or someone with expertise in the ground turkey fig trees of North Carolina?

We need to do that.

We need to do that.

Yes.

I think I've heard and seen enough in order to make my decision.

I'm going to retire my chambers.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Steph, how are you feeling about your chances?

I don't know.

I never thought in a million years that anyone supporting me would be yelling killed.

I mean, I've all of the neighbors, I've talked a big game about fighting with this developer about the tree that I I saved for a few days.

So this is like very not on brand for me.

So that's how bad the trees are.

I don't know.

This is shady.

This is like those shady carbon offsets I read about in the New Yorker.

This is, yeah, I don't know.

David, how are you feeling?

I mean, Steph is very compelling always.

I'm stealing myself

to mourn my trees.

Trees are supposed to bury their man.

A man's not supposed to bury their trees.

David, we learned earlier that Steph is a breastfeeding mother.

Are you like a teacher or a first responder or anything that

I'm a nurse?

Oh, well, there you go.

We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

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Yeah, I'm talking about entree bowls, but you know what?

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Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

I quote, my kids are starting to notice I'm a little different from the other dads.

Why don't you have a straight job like everyone else?

I told them this story.

In the forest, there was a crooked tree and a straight tree.

Every day, the straight tree would say to the crooked one, Look at me.

I'm tall and I'm straight and I'm handsome.

Look at you.

You're all crooked and bent over.

No one wants to look at you.

And they grew up in a forest together.

And then one day, the loggers came and they saw the crooked tree and the straight tree.

And they said, just cut the straight trees, leave the rest.

So the loggers turned all the straight trees into lumber and toothpicks and paper.

And the crooked tree is still there, growing stronger and stranger every day.

End quote.

Tom Waits.

A lot of wisdom in that old flugel horn being played underwater.

But now we get to you.

The parable of the straight and crooked tree.

Obviously, your backyard is imperfect.

And I appreciate the fact that you care enough about your children to want to save them from slipping on a fig.

And then getting, you know, cracking their head open so the tree can finally feed on them.

Obviously, David is here.

He speaks for the trees.

He's made some sick pact with these trees.

He values them deeply, more even than his own children.

Only you are there to protect them, Steph.

Whereas David, I think,

is watching from the back window, hearing them whisper.

It happens probably every other night, right?

You find him in the kitchen, standing at the window, 3 a.m.

Who are you talking to, David?

No one, no one.

Just listening to a podcast.

He's not listening to a podcast.

Those are the figs.

We're on the eve of Halloween as we record this right now, and I'm scared.

I'm scared for your family, scared for your house.

Obviously,

whatever is behind your house is more terrifying than what you have in front of your house.

You couldn't even take a picture of it.

Why not?

Did the trees tell you not to?

They didn't ask for it?

They didn't ask for that.

I didn't want to upset the podcast gods or whatever.

Sure.

I'm glad we're all on the same druidic page here.

Second biggest applause is ever took in my phone.

All right, let me see the picture on your phone.

But it's out there.

It's out there?

Well, it's offstage.

Your phone is off stage.

Yeah.

Can I please, Laura,

can we get the phone?

Thank you, by the way, for

the, by the way, for commandeering every phone from every lid again.

I trust you're sorting through the best pictures of the trees that you have.

I've got to go back and.

It's funny.

I took all these pictures of the backyard and there are no trees.

Okay.

The trees are only in her mind.

Here it is.

Here they are.

Let me see.

So as you can see on the left side of the photo is a scuppernong grapevine that has just gone way out of control and is bigger than either of those trees will be.

Jesse,

this looks like nothing to me.

This is madness, right?

That's madness back there.

Yeah, there's a lot of leaves.

You might need me to tell you.

It's so bad that there's nothing.

Where can the children play in that?

It's an overgrown jungle back there.

That's correct.

Their problem isn't the trees.

The children makes yummy food and one of them doesn't.

Without the grapevine, Judge Hodgman, how will the children make wine?

Well, okay, it's now obvious to me that as your husband's mind is imprisoned by the trees, so the vine speaks to you.

It's a very delicate emotional ecosystem back there.

The two of you, as a married couple with young children, are still working.

It's a manifestation of your own marital, psychological battles back there.

No wonder there's no room for your kids to play.

You've got,

here's my ruling.

Kill the,

no, don't kill the trees.

I think that there needs to be something that happens back there before those trees die, which is to say, there is no room for your kids kids to play, but I no longer blame the trees because it is just, it's overgrown.

You need to get out there.

I mean, between nursing and nursing, you need to find some time to get out there and trim back this stuff.

You need to consult.

You should consult with an arborist or someone else to say, how can we make these trees a little less intrusive?

I don't believe in just lopping down trees when your real problem is pruning.

I think you ought to give them some, I think you have to give them one chance to live.

Give these trees one chance to live, Steph.

And David, you love these trees so much.

You better be picking up those turkey browns every day.

No.

Keep your kids from slipping in them.

No, just throw them away.

They're garbage.

Part of the problem is the amount of time that he spends on getting every good one and the bad ones.

Oh, oh, oh, David.

David, there are no good ones.

This is the sound of a gabble.

Judge Sean Hodgman rules.

Steph David, thanks for joining us on the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast.

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The Wizards answer eight by eight.

The Conclave's call to demonstrate their arcane gift their single spell they number 64

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Hey, Bailiff Jesse and Durham, North Carolina.

We have more justice to dispense.

It's time for what we call swift justice, correct?

Yeah, I mean, what I'm thinking, and if this is okay with you, Durham, North Carolina, is we'll put 15 minutes up on the clock and we'll see how much justice we can get sorted in that brief amount of time.

My hope is that by the end of that 15 minutes,

there will no longer be any problems in the entire research triangle.

I think that's probably true.

Or at least

Raleigh and Durham and maybe Chapel Hill fends for itself.

It's about time.

It's about time.

Don't even know what that means.

Yeah.

Why don't we bring out the first litigants for Swift Justice?

Put 15 minutes on the clock.

We'll bring out those first litigans when you're ready, Jesse.

Please welcome to the stage Lauren and Jeff.

Lauren and Jeff, please.

Lauren and Jeff both work in tech, but Jeff is a lifelong musician.

Lauren is part of a program where she learns primitive skills.

Wow.

Okay, primitive skills.

Put a pin in that.

Jeff.

Quick question.

Do you have a 90s cover band?

I do.

Yeah, I thought so.

What's the name of it?

120 Minutes.

And actually, there's two of them.

I'm not here to buzz market.

Wait a minute.

You have two 90s cover bands?

Sort of, yes.

Hey, has anyone in Durham ever heard the term art needs constraints?

Primitive skills, Lauren, what does that mean?

What are the primitive skills

you're learning?

Like, have you ever started a fire with a bow drill?

Nope.

Okay.

Or take a look at it.

Have you?

Yes, I hack.

Oh.

Can you go to Stephen David's backyard?

Sounds like there's not enough room.

What if you were to live in their backyard?

Could you think you could live back there for a week?

I would love to do it.

I think it would be very dangerous, opossum and so forth.

What else?

What are the primitive skills?

I learned how to tan a hide, a deer hide.

Whoa, what are you planning?

What, do you have some information about something that's going to happen?

I'm kind of wondering if that's just day-to-day life in the research triangle.

With our fig trees.

Yeah.

There's a whole side of that that like are into survivalist things, but then there's a side that's more into like herbalism and just natural.

Right.

Who brings who seeks justice in this court?

I do.

And what is the nature of the justice you seek?

So our relationship could have started three years earlier than it did.

I see.

We met at a tech event.

I offered to help him find a job in tech and exchange numbers.

Now, what do you mean?

You met,

but your relationship didn't start for three years.

Explain.

Yes.

So we texted back and forth.

I really was trying to help him find a job.

He found a job on his own accord, and I said, oh, we should get celebratory drinks.

And then

text kind of fell cold.

So we actually started dating about a year and a half ago.

And this incident, of course, comes up.

And I find that he's thinking I flaked on these text messages.

You say that the text, the text went cold.

Yeah.

I have a copy of the texts here.

Thank you, Laura.

Let's see here.

Lauren, would you please read the Lauren part?

Sure.

This is a text that you sent to Jeff.

Yes, four and a half years ago.

Four and a half years ago.

Wine or whiskey, we can make a game-time decision.

No Monty for me.

Spent too much time indoors today and needs some nature.

Next week's a bit crazier than usual, but Thursday and Friday look good.

I'll let you know.

Looking forward to hearing about day one.

Hands up emoji.

Hands up emoji.

You sent that, and what did you reply?

Go ahead, Jeff.

Read the part that says, Jeff.

Wine was presumptuous of me, perhaps.

Whiskey, gin, goza, darjeeling, whatever you so desire.

It is a gorgeous night.

Enjoy your envied nature time.

Friday, I'm out of town.

Moon emoji, tree emoji.

Oh, yes.

It's true.

Moon emoji, tree emoji.

Friday, I'm out of town, FYI.

I look forward to meeting up.

And did you ever meet up?

Let the records show that they did not ever meet up.

Why didn't you meet up?

That was such an adorable text-cute

shrug from Lauren.

Arguably, the ball was in your court.

Jeff was last to text.

So what happened?

Right.

The additional context was that at this networking event, I was the one to approach him.

I actually recognized him from bartending four years prior to that.

It's a very involved timeline.

Right.

Yeah.

I just knew him as like the cute bartender.

But anyway, I went up and offered to help, you know, him find a job.

Yeah.

And he was like, okay, cool.

So we exchanged numbers.

So I'm already not knowing if this is like a professional thing.

Like I'm hitting on him, but I'm trying not to make it look like I am, you know, so I was forward.

And then I was the one to offer the drink thing too.

Like that's what led up to this text exchange.

Right.

So how did it go cold, Lauren?

Well, in my mind, I already was forward twice.

And I was just kind of waiting for him to be like, I really want to go out with you.

Right.

Yeah.

So you offered a couple, couple, you said, maybe next week is a bit crazier.

Thursday and Friday look good.

You said Friday, I'm out of town.

Look forward to meeting up, but you never settled on a date.

And you feel that it was his obligation to settle on a date.

Thursday I was free, clearly.

Say that again, please.

Thursday I was free, clearly.

Thursday, yeah, exactly.

So why didn't you follow up?

So

to me, the most important sentence there is toward the end of hers that says, she says, I'll let you know.

Right.

And she's right, to me, Jeff, it's

moon emoji, tree emoji.

It represents envied nature time.

Just give me one quick sentence.

Why didn't you follow up, Jeff?

I felt it was borderline obnoxious to reach out to her again based on the semi-possible professional flavor of this dynamic.

I had a huge crush on her and absolutely wanted to.

I'm sure I reread those texts eight times and tried to come up with a good reason that I could text her where it wouldn't be, to me, a little bit off taste.

This just sounds like a run-of-the-mill tragedy miscommunication.

And Lauren, what would you have me rule?

I don't understand.

What's the deal here?

What do you want me to do?

Yeah.

So I would just like some.

Do you want me to shame him for not texting you?

No, no, no.

Just the acknowledgement.

So now when it comes up and we like mention it to friends and stuff too, Jeff is like, well, it's in her court it wasn't my fault at all I'm like well you you also could have like said something if you really wanted to go out you could be like hey what's up and just follow it up Lauren it's the past it's gone

what do you want for the future now that you have him here um to not say that it's all my fault that that that we didn't date three is that what you say it's all her fault i wouldn't phrase it that way how would you phrase it

It's not really a fault.

It's that when the story comes up,

she uses the phrase, something like she said tonight, where where the texts went cold.

And I remember feeling how

I was to have a date with her and that she didn't reach out to me.

And I, you know, reading those over and over again,

I decided that if she were interested, she would have written me.

It's the past.

What do I have to tell both of you?

You're together now.

It's the past.

That's true.

She's giving you a lifeline.

She says the text went cold.

Passive voice.

She's not even putting the blame on you, even though she obviously does blame you.

Just a rephrasing, just even the tone of the way that we tell.

I mean, it's a story about kind of how we didn't.

Yeah.

From now on, you just say,

it's unfortunate we could have had so much time together, but in this case, we both figged up.

That's what you say from now on.

Get out of here, you crazy.

Thank you, Lauren and Jeff.

Please welcome to the stage John and Matt.

A lot of nerf coming into my courtroom being that conventionally attractive.

John?

John and Matt have been friends since their kids were in daycare.

John and Matt.

They both spend a lot of time with each other and their kids at youth sports events.

John and Matt, welcome.

Sports events bond you.

Kids' youth sports.

Yes.

Your kids' sports.

Your kids play sports together.

Correct.

What's the sports?

Basketball and soccer.

Basketball and soccer.

Two of the great ball games, Jesse.

Absolutely.

That's right.

Okay, so...

Both involve balls.

That's right.

Who seeks justice in my court?

I do, Your Honor.

And you are John.

John, what is the nature of the justice that you seek?

Well, not only do we go to these sporting events, but last summer we did a couple stints coaching volunteer-wise.

Matt was the head coach.

I was the assistant coach.

Okay.

It was a difficult basketball season.

Power struggle.

Should have been you.

True.

I understand.

So

our kids, they were six at the time last summer when they were playing basketball.

There was a very difficult season.

Somehow, we made it to the championship game.

Wow.

And somehow.

Really, the kids did.

Well, you know, it was a team effort.

That's true.

And you were the coaches.

I guess that was true.

That was the assumption.

Yeah, I forgot for a moment.

I thought we were just intrusive parents.

Okay, got it.

We were in the championship game.

The kids played well, and we ended up being up by two points with 45 seconds left in the game.

This is exciting.

Yes.

So Matt, as the head coach, kind of directed what would happen.

He had the ball inbounded to his son.

Before the play happened, he said, all you need to do is dribble around for 45 seconds, and you win, and we go get ice cream.

This is what Matt, head coach, said to his own son.

Yes.

Right.

He gave the ball to his son.

Yes.

Conflict of interest.

So his son, who is fantastic, proceeded to dribble as quickly as possible down the court, shoot, missed.

The other team got the ball.

I'm enjoying this, Jesse, because you know, basketball is my favorite sport.

Well, you love the way they dribble up and down the court.

Yeah, that's true.

It's true.

The other team got the ball, came back, scored.

It was a tie.

Since it was the championship game, they made us play an overtime overtime

round.

And

the other team scored, one, and our team basically ended up crying at the end of the season.

I don't bring this up to blame.

It should have been the other children crying.

Builds character, they say.

Builds character.

So you're saying that Matt blew it as head coach?

No, I don't.

You lost the game.

We did.

Buck stops there.

No, and here's why.

Okay.

So I brought this case to you because since then, Matt continues to carry a lot of guilt himself

for his game time decision.

I don't think it's necessarily healthy to carry that forward.

Yeah.

Also, as we keep.

Let the record show that Matt is pondering his guilt so heavily right now that he cannot speak.

I was waiting for my turn, but I'm happy to see you.

I appreciate that.

That's some good head coach material.

Can I say for starters, my goal for the season was for the kids to love basketball and want to play another season.

And your secondary goal was to teach them to use up 45 seconds of the 24-second clock

in order to deaden the ball and end the game.

There's no shot clock in this league.

You can do that.

And so ending the season with the team in tears was counter to my goal for the season.

And why I beat myself up over the decision because my son, who's loved basketball, his third word was basketball.

His mama, dad, at basketball.

But his go-to.

Mama, dad, that basketball.

Basketball.

I know.

This is North Carolina.

That's a lie.

And so, but one thing he's very good at is dribbling around without purpose and not shooting.

So I was like, this is great.

This is how we're going to win.

And I've realized as soon as it happened, any parent here can attest.

The one person a kid's least likely to listen to is their own parent.

And I should have picked any other kid on the team and they would have listened to me.

And at least the kids I was in charge of wouldn't have been crying.

And I still think about that.

So you're carrying the guilt because you put it on your son.

And I think any other child I would have given it to would have done what you asked.

Yes, right.

And then again, the kids I was responsible for maybe would have still liked basketball.

When did this happen?

A year ago.

A year ago.

And John?

Yes.

What would you have me rule?

Well, I think Matt needs to let it go.

He tends to,

since then, our boys have continued to play sports together.

Every game he brings up this decision that he made at some point.

So it's a weekly occurrence.

You bring it up in front of the team?

No, no, no.

We are no longer coaching.

Oh, okay.

The kids are away from us, and it's just the two of us.

I don't want to make my kid feel bad about what he did.

Oh,

but you're still processing it with your friend,

Josh.

I understand.

Right.

And you're bored of it.

No, not at all.

I don't think it's very healthy, but also if he tends to go in for some self-deprecation, the door is open and I kind of go as well.

So it's kind of negative for both of us.

I want to point out that is a decision that you have made.

Wait, when he starts self-deprecating, then you deprecate yourself?

No, I deprecate

towards him.

Pardon my French.

Matt, you are allowed to speak.

There are two eyes in the word litigants.

Do you think you can let this go?

It feels like you should.

What I like is I want John to feel the responsibility of not making a team of six-year-olds end the season crying

You want him to feel the responsibility of not making children crying the head coach and feel what it feels like to feel the pressure of having the team play and not end up in tears Do you think that it have you resisted becoming head coach John?

I did my stint and I would like to just watch the sports from now on Why is it important to you Matt that he suffer in this way?

He says he did his stint as assistant coach.

I wanted to feel that pressure of the head coach and why I feel the guilt.

Why?

To understand the guilt.

All of this is optional.

You know, I've never been, I've been to two sports games in my life.

I live a full life.

Well, you haven't been to a six-year-old basketball game.

Matt and John.

No, I'm not a weirdo.

What if I did?

What if I showed up at a six-year-old basketball game without a child involved?

That wouldn't be good.

This isn't about, but this isn't about John.

This is about you, Matt.

You're trying to inflict something on John, but you need to process process this and let it go.

What happened happened?

You learned from it, right?

You got to get up off the bench and get back in the game.

Be a goldfish at other clichés from television.

You understand what I'm talking about, right?

He's got to let it go.

I agree.

Okay, can you let it go?

I will try to let it go.

Let me ask, because, you know, Luther,

is one of these people your dad?

That one?

Okay.

So hypothetically, let's say something were to happen here tonight.

If you had to pick a new dad, which are these two guys?

Just put, just point.

Close your eyes.

Cover your eyes.

Cover your eyes.

Hang on.

Hang on.

Don't do anything.

Okay, Luther, when I put my hand over the head of your new dad,

Raise your hand, okay?

Don't stop pointing now, because literally he's just in there pointing like this.

And it feels like he's pointing at me, and it's getting scary.

So, Luther, get ready to raise your hand

when you see your new dad.

Okay, don't say anything.

No one applaud or anything.

I just want to know.

Hey, guess what, you guys?

Luther doesn't want either of you.

The child has judged well.

You're both good dads to your own children, but Matt, you gotta let it go.

Thank you, John and Matt.

Let's welcome to the stage Hanna and Ian.

Hanna and Ian are engaged and in the process of moving in together.

She works in health and human services.

Ian owns a music school.

Ian, do you have a 90s cover band?

No.

Oh, okay.

Good.

You both have really good laughs, and they're good Halloween laughs.

Hannah and Ian, welcome to my court.

Who seeks justice here?

I do.

Hannah, what is the nature of your complaint?

So, for as long as I can remember, I have brushed my teeth in bed.

And I know.

Wow.

Highly transgressive.

I know it's controversial, and I know it's not for everyone, but it really doesn't affect anyone but me.

And so

since Ian and I have gotten together, he has outlawed this practice.

And any time I do it, he'll run into the bedroom and demand that I immediately get up and go to the bathroom to finish brushing my teeth.

And I really just want to be able to brush my teeth in peace.

Not only in peace, but under the covers.

Which is the most peaceful way to brush your teeth.

It says here,

Ian, that I should ask you why you disagree with this practice, but let's skip that.

Okay.

Let me clarify.

You are engaged.

Yes.

When did you become engaged?

On the 9th of July of this year.

Oh, well, that's very nice.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

And

it says that you are in the process of moving in together.

So

how many nights a week are you sleeping over

um most

nights we're trying to get my house ready so that we can move fully so mostly i'm at ian's and then occasionally i have to go back so you're so you're trying to get your house ready for the two of you to live in

so what's going to happen who's going to move in with me sorry um so we're going to sell my house and then buy a bigger house okay yeah in the future in the future but so you're brushing your teeth at home alone with your dog in the laundry basket having a grand old time yeah it's then when you come over to stay over at his house, or he comes over to your house, either way, he's like, you can't brush your teeth.

Right.

And

I mostly get it.

I'm remiss in not asking, how do you do this?

Well, what's the process?

Yeah, when I'm at my house,

I just keep my toothbrush.

Where, by the way, you can do whatever you want.

Thank you.

That's why you have your own place.

Exactly.

So I just keep my toothbrush next to the bed.

Excuse me.

This is her house in Northgate Park.

It's hers.

It's her life.

Cultivate your own fig trees, weirdos.

And I have a little cup that I spit into, and it's lovely.

The audience hates it, obviously.

But you know what?

I'm alone, and Lunda doesn't care.

But when I'm at Ann's house, I don't do that.

I'm not asking to do that.

It's just occasionally I'm very tired or my feet hurt or I just don't feel like it.

And I would like to.

there just happens to be a toothbrush on the bedside table

and you have your fluoride spittoon handy

no when I'm at his house I don't have the cup because of the rule

this is a great way to start a marriage

because of the rule

certain things I can't do in my marriage because of the rule

so I just go back to the bathroom to spit out the toothpaste but you still are brushing in bed.

Right.

Right.

Occasionally.

Wait a minute.

Where do you put the toothpaste on?

In the bathroom.

Okay, so

you prime it in the bathroom.

Then you get over, you put the toothbrush with the toothpaste on it gently down in your nightstand.

You get in, pull up the covers, and then go,

yeah,

brushy, brushy, brushy.

And then you go,

no, Ian wants to.

Go ahead, Ian.

Well, it should be noted that it's an electric toothbrush.

Okay.

So it is, there is a

sound coming from the bedroom.

Right.

And I'm down the hall going, hmm, what could that be?

Ian, you're out there in the, you're out there in the hall there,

and you're hearing that sound.

What are you saying to yourself?

Saying like a sort of a, hmm, hmm, hmm.

Hmm.

Judge Hodgman, let the record reflect that when he's out there in the hall, he's saying,

hmm.

Ian,

you love Hannah, right?

Very much so.

Yeah.

But this grosses you out?

What's the story?

Have you asked her, have you explained to her why you don't like this?

I mean, this is not typical.

That's true.

But that doesn't mean that it's illegal.

So

have you tried explaining to her how that makes you feel?

Yes.

All right.

And do a reenactment of that, please.

When I find you

in the bed

with a mouthful of toothpaste,

finishing an article before you go back to the bathroom.

It makes me think you could have done that in the bathroom.

This is my point.

He doesn't have any feelings about it.

It doesn't harm him anyway.

He just doesn't want me to do it because he feels like it's wrong, which clearly everyone else feels too.

But I don't think that's the problem.

I have to say, Ian, that essentially the argument that you just made to the woman that you love is that I have a system for brushing teeth.

Most people have it.

You should.

Exactly.

Not when I find you brushing your teeth in bed, it makes me feel

it makes me feel concerned.

That

I will find.

No,

let me say this.

Here's the deal.

Moving in together is hard because you are obviously not only joining lives together and possessions and a sense of ownership over both the things in your house and the procedures in your house, but then you're going to get together into a bed.

And it's not just you're going to have hugging and kissing time there, it's also going to be snoring and farting time.

And it's it's gross.

Now, I hope that you finally buy one of those famous houses that you can get here in North Carolina, which have two separate villas with California king-size beds in each of them separated by a reflecting pool.

And you can visit each other from time to time.

Then you could brush your teeth forever in your bed over there.

But there are going to have to be concessions that are made

in terms of how, you know, sleep hygiene and what, you know, this is the most, supposed to be the most intimate, personally intimate.

Like you sleep together, but you always sleep alone.

So it is both couples intimate, but also it has to be a peaceful retreat for you.

And if that is, if something one of you is doing that is violating the peace of the other, then that's something, a place where you have to compromise.

But here's the thing.

I don't see that you should do anything until Ian is able to tell you how he feels about it.

More than just, I'm concerned.

I need you to search yourself, and the moment that you can explain to her in a compelling way how you feel about it then i would advise you to change your routine if it is a meaningful you want to try it again yes we'll see

when i find you

brushing your teeth in bed

i

and occasionally also feel maybe a toothbrush tube in the bed or something like that.

What?

Judge Hoshman, let the record reflect that he said, when I find you brushing your teeth in bed.

Oh, sorry.

Yeah.

You have a pretty low voice, and it went down into.

Sorry.

Yeah.

I feel.

Well, good luck to you, Ian.

Thank you.

Thank you, Hannah and Ian.

That's it for for this episode of the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Our thanks to Reddit user to live and Brian in LA for naming the case in this episode.

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