Mordor in the Court

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.
This week, Mordor in the court, Andrew brings the case against his wife, Marie.

Andrew is planning a backyard harvest party for their family and friends on September 22nd, which happens to be the date of Bilbo Baggins' birthday in the Lord of the Rings.

Andrew wants to make the party a celebration of Bilbo's big day. But Marie says, if this ends up being a hobbit party, she's not going.
Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. While there was still a king at Ribroast, the Boggies remained nominally his subjects.

And to the last battle at Ribroast, with the slumlord of Borax, they sent some snipers, though who they sided with is unclear.

And there the North Kingdom ended, and the boggies returned to their well-ordered, simple lives, eating and drinking, singing and dancing, and passing bad checks.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigant's in.

Andrew, Marie, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you, God or whatever.
I do. We do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he probably only watched the first half of that 12-hour-long Hobbit movie. I do.
I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

I think I watched the first

one of them. How many of them were there? Six?

They made three movies out of a short book in order to get, got to get that trilogy. You know what I'm talking about, right, Andrew? Got to get that

trilogy.

Yes. And then I didn't, even though I love...
I mean, at the risk of biasing myself, I love Lord of the Rings.

Yeah, there's a lot to love. But before we get into...
Yeah, there's definitely no shortage of Lord of the Rings.

There's plenty of Lord of the Rings. There's a lot to go.
There's a lot to go around. There's only one ring.
There's a lot to go around.

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all, and in the darkness, find them. Famous poem.

I thought you just made that up. No, no, no.
It's a very famous, very famous poem by Robert Frost. All right.
So before we hear this case, we got to get this out of the way.

You may be seated, Andrew and Marie, for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom?

Andrew, you got a guess?

The only cultural reference I've ever known from listening to the podcast was the Bragg's apple cider vinegar label. And so I'm going to go with that one as my guess.

You got the Bragg's apple cider vinegar label. It's the only one that, as you said it, I thought that is exactly what I was doing.
I don't even remember what that one was. Yeah, me neither.

Bragg's apple cider vinegar is the one with the quote mother unquote. Yeah.
Mother strand. Yeah.

It's a blob. It's a blob.
It's a blob of stuff at the bottom of the bottle of at the bottom of the culture. Apple cider vinegar, right? Only buy foods that have a weird blob in them.

It's a cultural reference in many ways. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Yeah,

I share your eye there, Marie. You might need to edit that.

You're married to this guy? I am. I am 17 years.
Wow, that's wonderful. Yeah.
Too bad.

Anyway, so do you have a guess, Marie? So I'm supposed to guess what that excerpt was from. Yeah.
Right? Yeah.

And it's not pop culture, right?

It's obscure culture. It was, I'll give you this non-hint.
It was weirdly popular in its day,

which was 1969.

Uh-oh. And it is not the label of Bragg's apple cider vinegar.

I was going to say something to do with Gulliver's Travels, but that was a little bit before 1969. A little bit before 1969.
Yeah. It was our mid-60s, right?

Yeah, that's right. It was

that time when the 60s were still really the 50s. Yeah, it was more folk than hippie.

Beatnik, that was a beatnik thing, a beatnik novel by Jonathan Swift. Yeah.
Or Jonathan Taylor Thomas. Yeah.
Which one was it?

It's not Gulliver's Travel. It's not

Bragg's Apple Cider Vinegar label. This book from 1969

is called Board of the Rings. Board of the Rings.
I'm holding it up here for our, I have a first edition paperback that I found at probably the big chicken barn in Maine at one point.

It was produced in 1969 as a reaction to the huge

readership that Lord of the Rings developed on college campuses in the 60s.

and it was published by the harvard lampoon from harvard university and it was co-written by henry beard and doug kenney two the two famous founders of the national lampoon doug kenney of course co-wrote animal house and catty shack and died at the age of 33 in hawaii tragically uh but before he did that before he before he died he wrote Board of the Rings.

One last act. And this, look at this tiny little slip of a thing.
And I'd never looked at i have had this on my bookshelf for probably a decade or more i never once looked at it it is

wildly um

what's the word i'm looking for faithful i mean almost line by line they're doing line by line parodies i don't know how they got the whole book into this slim little thing but maybe they just got tired And guess what?

So they called it Board of the Rings instead of Lord of the Rings, Jesse.

Guess what they called Frodo Baggins?

Judge Hodgman, what did they call Frodo Baggins? Frito Bugger. See,

this is why they revolutionized comedy in the 1970s.

This was the thing that transformed some dudes working at the Harvard Lampoon into an international force in comedy that changed the trajectory of the form. Guess what they call Bildo Baggins?

Judge Hodgman, what did they call Bilbo Baggins? Jennifer Marmer, get ready to bleep this one.

Bugger.

Yeah, you can find that on the streets of Park Slope this afternoon. It finally served its purpose.
In the meantime, I am back in Brooklyn now.

Thank you very much to Joel Mann and the gang at W-E-R-U for hosting the summer chambers up there in Maine. But I'm back in business in Brooklyn, New York City.
Now here with

Marie and Andrew to hear this case. All guesses are wrong, so we got to hear it.
uh andrew you bring the case to this court correct it says here that you want to change your harvest party

into a bilbo and frodo baggins birthday party is that right uh yeah yeah definitely want to uh in the spirit of um just being a bit of a nerd to

celebrate Bilbo Baggins uh birthday party with a big banner that says happy birthday, Bilbo Baggins,

and all sorts of other Hobbit stuff. To give me an idea, imagine I was going to be one of your guests.
Yeah.

And you're writing me an invitation to this party, handwritten in your Lord of the Rings handwriting with all the extra dots above the A's or whatever.

In a sentence, what would you write to me in the invitation to give me a sense of what to expect?

Come to celebrate the beloved character, Bilbo Baggins,

in the true spirit of a Hobbit birthday party with food and drink and games, and everybody would leave with a gift. And you would put down at the bottom, B-Y-O-P,

bring your own pipe weed.

Yeah, that's a great idea. I will do that.

Marie, that's a Lord of the Rings thing. See, that's the thing.
I feel like I'm already at a disadvantage here because I didn't even get that joke.

Marie, you don't like the idea of having a Hobbit birthday party. If you could describe Andrew's concept in one word, what word would you use to describe it?

And you may choose the most contemptuous word you can think of. Embarrassing? A little embarrassing, yeah.

Maybe we'll, maybe we'll be able to. Maybe we don't need to advertise that we're geeky in this particular specific way.
When you say we, do you consider yourself...

And by the way, nerds, I don't need you to be sending me letters about the differences between nerds and geeks and dorks you know

we're all we're all listening to all dweebuses we don't want your letters this is going to be your most highly contentious podcast episode we're all on the same well-thumbed page of the silmarillion

yeah see i don't get that so that's the question that i have for you are you indeed madam a dweeb a dork nerd a geek or are you cool and it's your husband who's a weirdo?

I would say I can be geeky, but I'm not the type of geek that is really into

sci-fi and other

worlds. Famous science fiction book, The Lord of the Rings.
What are you into? I watched the movie. I watched the movie.
Okay. Marie, what are you into? Twilight Tharp?

Yes.

So what kind of things do you nerd out about then, Marie?

What are you, you're into theater.

You are a dancer, right? Trained.

Well, yes, a trained dancer. I don't perform anymore.
Aged out of that career.

I really love Beyoncé, and I get really nerdy about Beyonce. Yesterday was her birthday.
It's interesting. You can obviously nerd out about Beyonce in a weird way.

Beyonce is one of the few remnants of what we used to call the monoculture. Now,

we're starting here on a premise that I don't understand, Andrew. What is a harvest party to begin with?

A harvest party, well, it's just an excuse for a party.

So we celebrate birthdays and different things throughout the year, and we get this group of friends together or this group of friends. This guy celebrates birthdays, Jesse.

So I wanted to do one party to bring all of the different friend groups together that isn't attached to a specific person or

theme. So you haven't had a quote-unquote harvest party before.
This is not a tradition in your family, the harvest party. No.
You were just looking for a fall-time party. Yeah.

That actually happens to fall, as it were, on or about the autumnal equinox that does mark the passing of summer into fall. It does.
Yeah. And we have like a garden and

nano orchard that's growing and will be producing. So I'm trying to.
A nano, nano orchard. Yeah, tell me about this nano orchard.
With like two of each kind of trees.

Like a peach tree, just a peach tree on a thumb drive. It's

tiny robotic spiders they're growing. Okay, so Andrew, this harvest party is a new idea, not an old tradition in your family, right? Correct.

And part of that has to do with the space where we want to hold the party is new for us. I know you want to brag about your patio.
We're going to take a look at it in a second. I got that.

Stand by for a second. Hold for patio, patio flying in.

My strategy is working great.

I got you on that one, Marie. You've heard a lot about this patio, haven't you? I have.
Marie has notes in front of her that just say petard-quoist question mark.

When did you pitch the idea of a harvest party on the brand new patio to

Marie?

When did I pitch it? Was when I said, hey, you know that harvest party that I wanted to do. Can we make that a Bilbo Baggins party? And she said to me, what harvest party?

So

it was one of those things that I had in my mind and forgot to take it out of my mind. I understand.

Marie, the first time you heard about this was when Andrew, your husband of 17 years, came to you and said, you know the harvest party we were talking about and you're like no and you're like i want to make it a bilbo baggins party and you're like double no correct Okay, correct.

Correct.

That was exactly what her face was like. Yeah.

I like Andrew's lifestyle. My mom does this.
My mom will be like, I was just talking to you in my mind.

And

is this something that's pretty typical of Andrew that he'll have conversations that he thought he had with you in his head? And later you learn that he's changed his mind about them?

It is typical that he will have a whole conversation in his head and then tell me the final product as if he was talking to me along the way and not to himself. Gotcha.
Yes. Are there other examples?

There are too many.

I don't know if I can think of a specific one. Why don't you think about it while we look at this patio function? Oh, yeah.
I was going to say it could be about the patio.

That's something I didn't know was happening. Let's take a look because Andrew very proudly sent in some photos of the of the new backyard patio.
In Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

I learned that that's how you say you don't say Lancaster, Lancaster.

And all these photos will be available, obviously, on our Instagram page and our show page at maximumfun.org and anywhere else you can see our stuff.

In this case, it's Andrew's stuff because you built all this stuff, right, Andrew? Yeah, yeah. I like fun.
Yeah, I thought you were just a Lord of the Rings nerd.

I didn't know you were a trellis nerd. Yeah, no, I love that.
Oh, he has built a trellis since he took that picture. What's a nano orchard without a trellis, Judge Hodgman?

Exactly. With a micro trellis.

Let me say that this is a beautiful patio that you put together back here in your backyard in Lancaster.

And I see one wooden archway.

I see one, I guess it's not exactly a trellis, but

it's a beautiful structure for the hanging of fairy lights behind a nice bar. Did you put these flagstones down? Oh, I'm sorry.
In Lancaster, do you say flagstones?

Yeah,

so I did it all. I had been collecting for a few years

whenever I found on Facebook Marketplace a cheap amount of flagstone, I would buy it and had it piled up in different places in our backyard.

And

when I reached the tipping point of too many piles of rocks, I decided to

put them into a more beautiful arrangement. And you did this yourself.
Yes.

Marie,

do you understand

how many Judge John Hodgman cases are basically like, my husband buys rocks on Facebook Marketplace and never does anything with them? Would you please order him to finish his project?

And you have a husband who not only finished the project, but you have to admit, it looks beautiful, doesn't it? Yes, it is gorgeous. His craftsmanship is excellent.

To back up, he did not tell me why he was collecting those rocks for years.

I'm pretty sure we had that conversation, at least in my head. So,

you know, the case, if this would have been last year before he started the project, it could have been a case like that. Why are there huge piles of flagstone in our backyard?

Have you ever spoken to each other before today?

It is nice. Andrew, can I introduce you to Marie? She's a dance instructor.
Marie, Andrew, is a woodworker.

This is like the thing that has both caused a lot of tension in our relationship over the years and also has probably kept us together for 17 years, honestly. The mystery?

The mystery stones?

Yeah, the real worry is that now the flagstones are arranged beautifully into this patio, maybe there's nothing to be married for anymore.

It's a different episode.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.
Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

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When did you build the patio? The patio was last summer.

Yeah, just weekends last summer. Were you thinking about the Hobbit party when you were using your simple levers? No, no, I was thinking of a fun place to relax and

yes, in a hammock. Murray, why are you trying to relitigate this Flagstone mystery? Come on.

The way the Hobbit party came into my mind

was I was reading Lord of the Rings, and every time I remember every time I've read through Lord of the Rings and read through just that first part of Fellowship of the Rings, where they talk about that, he goes very into detail about how hobbits like to have their birthday parties.

And it's like a specific date, September 22nd.

And there's like no other nerdy thing that has such a specific date attached to it that I'm like, why don't, like, how come I've never celebrated that or done anything with that before?

Um, I guess previously, like the nerd day that we all kind of like nodded to each other on May 4th because it was Star Wars Day. Um,

May the 4th be with you. Yeah, and I, so when I, like, 10 years ago, I felt like that was the cool, like, inside nerdy thing that if you knew that May 4th was Star Wars Day, it was cool.

It was like, if you're driving in a Jeep with no doors and you pass another Jeep, you give them that Jeep wave. um but it's i know what you mean and you don't have to not have doors on

as long as it's a wrangler or uh or a jeep yeah there's a jeep wave uh and that was like a nerd thing and now i feel like since disney bought star wars that they've really commercialized and taken away the innocence and purity of well you should watch jenny nicholson's four-hour youtube video about galaxy's edge i i will thank you hey no really getting me maybe you get a big projector in your backyard and I'll come over and watch it with you.

There is a projector. I do have a projector.
But there's a screen. There's a big screen.

Here we go. And we watch baseball games on it because the Phillies are doing very well.
Yes, I saw your eyebrows go up, Jesse.

And see, I just sit, I sit on my hammock and listen to the baseball game, but this is next level.

Look, I also...

have read the opening scenes of the Fellowship of the Ring many times because it describes the birthday party that Bilbo throws for himself. It also happens to be his nephew Frodo's birthday.

There's a lot of detail, as you describe it, Andrew, of the birthday party. I've read that scene multiple times because after a little while, I get tired and I put it down.
I don't pick it up again.

I've read the whole book at least twice, the whole trilogy, even.

You're right, Marie, that I do love this work, but I will endeavor to be as absolutely neutral as as I can on this. Okay.

And in fact, I'm going to let Andrew make your case for you by asking him this specific question.

You know

what goes on at a Hobbit birthday party, right, Andrew? But a lot of people don't, and maybe Marie doesn't. So why don't you explain to us what your vision for Bilbo's birthday is?

What are people going to wear? What are the traditions of a Hobbit birthday party? What's going to go, what's going to happen in this backyard? Tell me all the nerdy stuff.

Well, so my vision for it would to try and tone down some of the nerdiness.

It's something where people would be welcome to dress in

Shire attire, but it's not mandatory.

Hobbits love to eat.

So there would be a lot of Hobbit themed or Shire themed foods to eat.

I've got a menu planned. Go on.
Tell me

foods.

So Hobbits love mushrooms. So, there'd be a lot of mushroom dishes,

stuffed mushroom cuts. They'll often take a shortcut to mushrooms.
Well,

potatoes. Yes.

We can boil them. We can mash them.

And I wanted to make. I don't remember the rest of that quote, but I'm with you.

I wanted to have like a mashed potato bar with where you can pop your own mashed potatoes. I also

do a lot of live fire cooking. So I have a large cast iron cauldron type thing that I wanted to make a rabbit and potato stew in.
A brace of conies. That's right.

Or as they would say, in Langster cones.

A little east of us, but yeah.

There's a lot of food that's discussed in Lord of the Rings. Sam Wise is talking about food a lot.
That's where all these,

if you're getting confused, listener, these the references to potatoes and conies and so forth. That's all Sam Wise Gamgee.
That's right.

Hobbit cuisine Yeah. And then he should have a YouTube channel.

But also some live music.

I've got some. What kind of live music is it going to be like?

The kind of like bagpipe penny whistle stuff they have at the prancing pony and bree. No, I was thinking more of the stuff from the green dragon and

bouche.

Well parried, sir. So I've got a couple of

people on deck that I'm trying to get in. But yeah, like an upbeat folk kind of

maybe some banjos.

Banjos.

What I really want is I want to find an artist that can put to music

Ent and the Ent Wife song, which is from the Two Towers. But it's, I reading it as a poem, it's beautiful, and I would love to hear it put into music as like a as a duet.

When spring unfolds the beech and leaf and sap is in the bough, when light is on the wild wood stream and wind is on the brow, when stride is long and breath is deep and keen the mountain air, come back to me, come back to me and say my land is fair.

Yes, yeah. So that because the end wives leave the ants because they have different interests.

Much like your wife is going to leave the you.

Exactly. So I thought it would be really beautiful to have like a male-female back and forth as the song describes.
And

anyway, a ceremonial parting of the ways for the husbands and wives who attend the party. Well, because it's no, it's a bit of a return to the end.

Yes, it's the calling back together, it's they're calling each of them to their own. Marie, do you know what an end is? No,

it was a giant walking tree.

Oh,

remember those? They you said you saw the movie have relationships,

yes, I did see that. Yeah, where do you think baby giant walking trees come from?

Enting, they're called.

You're gonna have a big banner that says, Happy birthday, Bilbo Bang, and just like in the movie, right? Yeah, obviously.

And on that, and one of the things that hit me hard when I first tried to read this book as a kid is that Hobbit birthday parties, the person, the birthday celebrator, is the one who gives the gifts.

Yeah, that's right. They don't get gifts, they give gifts.
That's right. What are you going to give? Magic rings out?

No, I was thinking of making a pecan sandy type shortbread and wrapping it in a banana leaf to resemble the Elven Lembus bread.

Well,

and then having that as a parting gift.

I think we were all thinking of that.

Obviously.

They even make a reference in Board of the Rings to the Elven Lembus bread. I couldn't believe

that they call it the magic Zweeback biscuit.

Let me ask you, Marie, what of everything you've heard described in the past past few minutes,

what is the most cringe-inducing thing that you've heard? The rabbit stew.

Really? Yeah.

Not the wandering troop of

Renaissance fair performers. No, I understand costumes and acting.
That makes more sense to me. The rabbit stew that does it for you.
How come?

We have a lot of cute rabbits in our yard. And I don't know.
I mean, you know,

dancers and food and stuff. I don't know.
I just, to me, that's just a step way too far.

You suggested that people wouldn't be able to enjoy this party unless they were bought into and had familiarity with Lord of the Rings. Is that a genuine concern? Yeah.

I mean, I think that's a big part of it. Because if I'm invited to an Elven or what is it?

Phil Bo Bagon. Phil Bo Baggins' birthday bash.

I'll be like, why?

What is this? Like, which has been the response of many of your friends. Yes.

Is there anyone in your friend group who would get this idea aside from you, Andrew, and me, apparently?

In my friend group or his? Well, in the friend group that you share. We don't really share friends.
Oh.

Sorry. That's again how this works.
You know what I mean? Right. No, absolutely.
Andrew, is it true that you have distinctly separate friend groups?

Well, we were both fully self-employed for a long time. So there was no like co-workers.

And then

let me restate this question. Do you have any friends?

Andrew, this is an intervention.

I guess what I'm asking, Andrew, is,

is there anyone besides you and me who would enjoy this Bilbo Baggins birthday bash? Yeah.

Yes.

Who are they?

First names only.

I feel like our neighbors have already expressed excitement and interest in the Bilbo Baggins birthday bash.

I have friends that I've said, oh, you know, like John and Kevin and

Ken are some

three first names of people that I've said, here, this is a thing that I would like to do and you would be invited to. Is that and they're like, oh, yeah, that sounds great.

And they understood, they're like, oh, because it's his birthday is September 22nd. And they're like, yeah, I know.

And so.

So how many guys are we talking about now?

Ballpark.

How many exclusively guys are we talking about? Oh, we're going to probably like half a dozen. Take their shoes off and come to your party.
Six guys?

Yeah. Well,

six guys that were like really, yeah, really into it. They knew all the things and they're ready.

Marie, do you think that the elements of the party that Andrew described are not elements that are enjoyable to all? Hand pies and stew and banjos

and

so on and so forth? Because they all sound pretty, except for the banjos, they all sound sound pretty good to me.

Yeah, I mean, food and drink, right? Every party has food and drink. It doesn't matter what the theme is.
You can all enjoy food and drink.

Except for rabbits, too. Sounds like good food and drink, too.
I'm not going to lie.

Like the specificity that Andrew brought to this, plus his pizza experience, leads me to believe that this might be tasty. I know.

He is a very good cook, too, and he does do like homemade pasta and stuff.

But

that's beside the point.

I think it's just like, think about it. You're an art, you're an art nerd.
You're not a nerd nerd. You get an invite to Bill Bo Baggins' birthday party.
Do you have any idea what that is?

Do you want to go to it? I mean, I've seen Lord of the Rings just as you have because it's one of the most popular film series of all time.

So I, I remember the part where they had a party, but honestly, if you just told me you're going to go to a party, there's going to be hand pies, I'd be like, great, what's the address?

What time should I be there?

But that's not what would be on the invitation. This whole thing is not about hand pies.
I'm really willing to put hand pies on the invitation. I wish I put hand pies on the invitation.

I would stipulate hand pies are on

the invitation. Yes.
I would eat anything Andrew cooked over in a cauldron. I'm going to be honest with you.
He came home with that last weekend and I'm like, you literally got a cauldron?

Yeah, that sounds awesome to me. And then I spent all weekend seasoning it.
Yes, he did.

Of course he did. Of course he did.
And once again, he had a project and he completed it.

Do you, if you want to, if you want to make the project completion a strong argument in your favor, should we talk about projects that haven't been completed? Go on. Yes.

So

I'm very lucky that Andrew is handy and he's a carpenter and he does beautiful work. He renovated the house before we moved into it.

And

when things shut down for COVID, he used that time to build us a new back deck, which was great. What has never gotten taken care of is, you know, that area that people put like the crisscross stuff

lattice across the bottom of the deck? Yeah.

That's just been open

since 2020.

We had a two and four year old at that time. They're rusty nails.
There were nails, wood, other things. Now our kids are seven and nine.
Okay. Luckily, they're alive.

But what I, what I tried, what I did communicate very clearly, I said, after

letting my frustration dissipate, I said, Andrew,

even when he brought me this project for the patio, I said, I am all for it. If you want to do this, it looks a little much.
Looks a little much to have Oak Henge in our backyard, but whatever.

However, my only requirement is you finish. I had, I think, three things on the list to finish before he did that.
One of them. One of them, lattice.

But you will admit, Andrew, that that lattice work has not yet been installed. It has not been installed.
And the reason that I have given

multiple times. We're talking years, though, people.
Years. Yeah, that seems like an afternoon at best.
What's the problem with the lattice? I don't like lattice,

generally speaking.

I thought I was the snob. The unknowable differences is what we're going to call that.
Now the emails will roll in. I am anti-lattice.

But I was going to put some other kind of privacy kind of screen there.

But I wanted to do it when I had the material. on hand to do it.
And sometimes the material that I use to do.

Just haven't found it on Facebook marketplace yet well or it might be uh so the kitchen that i just did on the patio that little pizza cooking area yeah yeah we all we all admire it that's all stuff that was left over from other projects or it was like i took out um those this lumber from some project and now i'm able to use it and repurpose it in order to you haven't found lattice to your liking laying around that's right how would you feel

if i were to say throw your Hobbit party, but Marie and her friends aren't going to be there? How would you feel looking around and not seeing your wife?

That would be sad.

Well,

because part of it is like you love your wife or something?

I do love her. We don't really know each other.
You're still getting to know me. I mean, part of it is, though, too, that.

I think one of the other reasons why I'm trying to make this happen this upon this rereading of Lord of the Rings versus all the other ones is not just that we have a space to do it, but also just because, like, I turned 40 this year, and so it's like all these things that I'm like, oh,

if I want to express this part of myself, or if I want like there are parts of me that I feel like haven't been expressed, then I just got to do it, got to make it happen before I'd be dead.

Obviously, you're not as into Lord of the Rings, but what do you like about this guy?

Oh, he's so cute.

Um, I appreciate his thoughtfulness. Yeah.

He's really looking at me. I appreciate that he's kind of like,

like, you can do, he can do a little bit of everything and he can do it really well. You know what I mean? Cause like he appreciates opera.
A jack of all trade. Yeah.

Like he can do the nerdy Lord of the Rings. He also appreciates opera and, you know, goes to shows with me.

Like he, yeah, he can, he's really good at figuring things out and when he says that he wants to express part of himself that he hasn't been able to express before through this lord of the rings party how does that make you feel well that was the first i ever heard of that

it does seem that andrew keeps a lot in his mind he does tell me more about that

That's just what he does. He processes, it takes a long time to process things in his head, and he usually doesn't say them until he has it all figured out.

Andrew, do you feel like you could communicate a little bit more openly about what's going on in your inner life?

Yes. I kind of led you to that one.

I feel like you're helping him out, but yeah. Yes, but

I wanted to make sure that what I'm expressing is the fully thought out

idea that it's. I'm able to answer any questions that might come up about it or just be able to defend my position, as it were,

in order to be able to clearly state that idea.

So, and because of you're saying that you need to be able to mount a defense before you even say word one about it, because you anticipate that maybe Marie is not going to like your plan.

Or just to be able to sell it. Could you imagine collaborating on a plan with Marie rather than devising something you have to defend?

Yes.

And that's one of the things that we did talk about was that, well, maybe instead of it being just Bilbo Baggins, you know, it is falling on the equinox, and we are at this thing that we call Oakhenge.

So it's kind of like.

And my friends all know the equinox. You know, they're all into astrology and everything.
Incense and stuff.

So we could do something there. So, Marie,

is that a potential compromise that it not just be a Bilbo Baggins birthday bash, but it's a Bilbo Baggins birthday bash/slash Wiccan Equinox.

Yes. And your dancer friends will be into it.

Andrew, you want this to go, you want me to rule that you do this every year, not just give it a try.

I would, well, maybe we give it a try, but I wouldn't want to do it every year without her consent, but I would like to do a very, like a big

get together.

And the fact that Frodo celebrated Bilbo's birthday as

a Bilbo Baggins birthday party every year after Bilbo left the Shire, it's like, oh, yeah, we can keep doing that and remembering Bilbo. My concern here, Marie, is that if I rule in his favor, right?

Like normally I would just like, why don't you just try it one time and

get it out of his system?

But this guy makes plans. He buys flagstones and he puts them in.
Like he will do it every year, won't he? He will.

Marie, it says here that your ideal ruling is to never have a Lord of the House theme party, not even once.

Why not let him try it out once and be there to support him for one cringy evening? I can do that.

Let their record reflect that she's cringing.

Would you invite your friends if I were to order this to be just a straight up Bilbo Baggins birthday bash? Would you invite your friends, Marie? Yeah.

I mean, listen, I'm not going to argue with your ruling. Would you feel more comfortable if Andrew could simply say, this is a party for me, and I'd love my friends to come? Yes.

Andrew, how do you feel about that?

I don't like to be the center of attention, though. Really?

Are you telling me that if you have a Bilbo Baggins birthday bash, you're not going to get up and give a Bilbo Baggins style speech about your 111st birthday and say a bunch of stuff about all your friends and then put on a magic ring and disappear

he isn't as theatrical it's true like I understand a costume thing more you you have to acknowledge that you knew what you were getting into when you were marrying this cornball

you knew he was going to be an emotional cornball

it's true and he was a youth pastor and he only wore flip-flops yeah

you probably when you have these conversations about what kind of parties you're you're going to have, he probably turns the chair backwards.

Well, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I'm going to

go into my hobbit hole and shut the door tightly. No entrance except on party business.
I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Marie, how are you feeling about your chances right now? You know, I've heard enough episodes that I trust that it will be a fair verdict at first.

I mean, for that first little bit, I wasn't sure, though, to be honest, because I felt like, you know, it's me against the three nondescript white guys who really like Lord of the Rings.

How am I going to?

I'm very descript.

You know what I'm saying? So, but, you know, I feel like I was heard. I feel like I was heard.
And I don't know if I'm going to win, but I will, I feel like it'll be a fair verdict.

Andrew, how do you feel? I'm a little bit nervous because I really want to have this party every year.

I knew I was putting a lot on Marie by asking her to do this party.

So that's why I said, okay, I will leave it in the hands of the court and I absolutely will, but I still really want to have the party.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

Hello. Hello.
I'm calling on behalf of the Beef and Dairy Network podcast. Oh, no, I'm sorry.
No sales calls. Goodbye.

It's a multi-award-winning podcast featuring guests such as Ted Danson, Nick Offerman, Josie Long.

I don't know what a Josie Long is, and anyway, I'm about to take my mother into town to see Phantom of the Opera at last. You are wasting my time, and even worse, my mother's time.

She only has so much time left. She's 98 years old.
She's only expected to live for another 20 or 30 years. Mother, get your shoes on.
Yes, the orthopedic ones.

I don't want to have to carry you home again, do I? Right, well, if you were looking for a podcast. Mother, you're not wearing that, are you? It's very revealing, Mother.

This is musical theater, not a Parisian bordello. Simply go to maximum fun.org.
I'm reaching for my Samsung Galaxy 4 as we speak. Mother! Mother, not that hat!

The Judge John Odgman Road Court Tour has begun. Our thanks to everybody we have already visited, and our thanks to everybody who has gotten or is getting tickets to our upcoming shows.

Now, we're doing some shows at the City Winery. We're doing one tonight in New York City.
You probably missed your chance there. Pittsburgh City Winery sold out.

So I guess that leaves Philadelphia on the 13th as your last opportunity to get the Judge John Hodgman Road Court branded bottle of wine, a city winery exclusive.

You can only get it at city winery shows. Why don't you check us out there? We're also in Washington, D.C.

this coming weekend. And then we move along to Madison, Wisconsin, St.

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And then in January, we go to Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Los Angeles, and San Francisco. Boy, oh, boy, do we have fun on the road.

And the thing about these shows, and I don't mind saying it again, is that they're real shows. We don't just sit at a table and do a podcast.
We stand up, we sing, we tell jokes.

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There are all kinds of things that we do at the show that you do not hear when we replay the live shows on the podcast. And so I strongly encourage you joining us.

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Check it out at maximumfund.org slash events. And what else do we need for these shows to happen, Jesse? We need your cases.
Go to maximumfund.org slash jjho and submit your disputes.

I don't care if they seem like a good idea to you.

Honestly, Jennifer and John can decide whether they're useful to us for our show, and we would love to hear them no matter what they are. So go to maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho.

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We'll, you know, obviously get you backstage. We share our crudites.

We're thrilled to meet you and do the show with you. It's a really good time.
And I think people leave having done it, having had a real blast. So we'd be thrilled to have your participation.

Go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO, submit a case, and do let us know if you're in one of those places we're headed to. Yeah.
And if you're shy, I'll just say it again.

You don't want to get up on stage? Of course not. Just go to maximumfund.org slash events, find a show near you, buy a ticket, go and have a good time.
It's always better when you're there.

Let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer.
Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone, there will be nothing, only I will remain.

That, of course, is the litany against fear from Frank Herbert's Dune, which did not get enough play for my money in either Dune part one or part two, because I think it's one of the most profound things I've read in any genre from when, starting when I was a kid.

I tried to read both of these long books.

Dune and the Lord of the Rings, probably when I was 12, too young for both of them, although there were certainly oddball friends of mine who had devoured both of them because they were smarter than me.

I felt that I had to read them because I'm pretentious. I was then, I am now.

Took me many years, and well until I was into my 20s, early 30s, that I was actually able to engage with them.

But the litany against fear was very, very meaningful to me as a person who struggles with anxiety. Because I'm going to tell you now,

Andrew, the litany against fear will not heal your children's cuts and bruises. That's not what it's for.
What it's for is what we call in dialectical behavioral therapy, distress tolerance.

It is a meditative practice to separate yourself from the emotion of fear, which is a natural emotion. But all emotions are, as my friend David Rees likes to say, they're information.

They do not control you. Your body and your mind is sending you information.
And when you are feeling fear or distress, you may use the litany against fear to remind yourself

that you do not have to serve that emotion, but you can let that emotion pass through you.

And when you turn your head, you will see the emotion going behind you, and only you will remain, that you are, that you're feeling that these emotions are not fatal. They are a passing moment.

And it's something that I think is really, really. valuable in life and in marriages, because sometimes your spouse really embarrasses you.
Sometimes the person you love a lot has

a hobby or a preoccupation that

is a little bit cringy to you.

And when you are feeling that, part of the deal of being a life partner is letting that feeling pass through you and remembering that when it is gone, both you and your loving spouse is a whole human being in his own right will remain,

even if he's dressed momentarily as a hobbit marie you said

something that well you frankly accused me of being crooked by suggesting that i had made up my mind before i came into this case

that i had um that that i was bought and paid for by big tolkien

uh that uh you asked like you know

You posed the question, if you were invited to do this party, would you go to it?

And you're like, I know that you and Jesse would go to it because you're both nondescript or whatever horrible thing you said.

I'm here to answer you, madam, that I would not.

I would not go to this party, not enthusiastically, at least. Look, I'm a big old nerd.
When I was in a Woodwind Quintet at the Moonland Conservatory of Music in iSchool extension program,

sometimes, you know, the oboist in our group, Genev,

was volunteering at the big science fiction fantasy conference at the Sheraton. She said, you want to wander over there with me? I'm like, yeah, I like this stuff.
I'm a Huvian. I like Star Treks.

I like everything. Let's go over there.

And so I was the clarinetist. She was the oboist.

And we went over and I was like, okay, this is cool. Are people dressed up as Klingons and so forth? We were in the lobby of this thing and I was feeling it.

And then we got to a part of the lobby where you could look down into the lower level of the lobby, to the true convention floor.

And what I saw down there was an abyss of nerdery that I could not handle.

Like, I thought I was in the thick of it as I was watching people standing in a hotel lobby, laughing their butts off to postcards literally put on bulletin boards, like proto-internet memes.

People were literally looking at physical bulletin boards and they weren't wearing any shoes.

I thought, okay, this is about as much as I can handle.

And I, when I looked down into that swarming cauldron, if you will, of lower level nerdery, I was afraid that I would become that abyss and I backed off.

This party sounds cringe to me.

Really delightful, heartfelt. wonderful, and very beautifully cringy.

It would be hard. I mean, like, there's part of me that wants to be like, Yeah, you're going to have that party, and Jesse and I are going to show up.

I'm not sure that I would easily do that.

Be very cringy.

I bet you could throw a really good party, but I got to admit, I feel a little funny going to the Ren Fair a little bit, seeing all these people dressed up with their turkey legs and so forth.

I, you know, and I'm not, I'm not bragging about this. I'm not sure why I feel this distress around these, around

this element of nerd culture. I'm not proud of it.

In some ways, I feel like I wish I were a little bit looser and more easygoing and less likely to be embarrassed by people showing off their whole middle-earthian heart.

But I want you to know that when I come make my verdict, I am coming to this from a place of I'm I'm not sure I would necessarily go to that party unless I were married to him.

Married people have to go to parties with each other all the time that they don't want to be a part of. Now, Andrew, you made a mistake from the beginning,

which was

not letting Marie know what this meant to you. And maybe that's because it takes some time for you to know what it means to you.
Knowing what things mean and

understanding why you're, what it is you want and why you want it is

hard work and introspective work.

So I'm not blaming you for

not mentioning to her that this was like, now that you're 40, something you want to reconnect with

here on the podcast. Like, I don't think that that was a strategic maneuver, as we accused you,

to drop that emotion bomb here, but rather something you kind of discovered in the moment as you were saying it.

And I hope that you take from Marie the lesson that she doesn't like having whole projects announced to her after you've worked them through in your head a million different ways.

So, where does this leave us?

You present me with a problem here, Andrew, which is that I want to make your dreams come true.

And yet, you have also said that you don't like to be the center of attention.

This is a weird place to throw a Bilbo Baggins birthday bash from.

A birthday party is a birthday party.

And whether it's your birthday party or Bilbo Baggins' birthday party, it's about someone. Bilbo Baggins wasn't afraid to make it all about himself.

I don't think that there is a way to have a true Bilbo Baggins birthday bash without centering it on someone. And that person, if you're going to do it, has to be you.

It has to be you.

It's a themed party. And part of the theme is:

I'm a selfish weirdo who is celebrating myself.

I mean, that is what Bilbo Baggins is doing at the beginning of the book. Yes.
And so I don't think that I could allow you to have a BBBB, Bilbo Baggins' birthday bash,

without that centerpiece of selfishness or self-regard or self-expression, shall we say. I love that you plan far in advance,

but I think that this is definitely a party that you have to try out once and see how it feels.

Because I'm not going to invite you to force

your wife, who's a whole human being in her own right, and her friends and other people who don't get it, to go through the strangeness and the distress of a Bilbo Baggins-themed birthday party unless you are implicated as well.

Which is to say this: You have to, first of all, write an invitation in that handwriting, which explains to people, own up, don't hide it, don't say, you know, the harvest party's a hobbit party now.

See ya. Like

you got it, you got to write it out. You're going to do this.
Like you had a birthday party in April, but this is a party for you.

You deserve to have a party for you.

It's okay to have a party for you.

And I bet you that everyone will have a great time.

If they don't understand the context of the differences between the foul hides and the stores and the hardfoot hobbits, they'll definitely understand this is something that Andrew loves and we're going to have a good time with it.

And I think that when you give that speech

that centerpieces the party, that was the centerpiece of Bilbo's party and will be of yours, you're going to have to sit down and figure out a way to express that.

And it's going to be challenging. You're going to be afraid.
But fear is the mind killer. Let that pass through you.

And where the fear has gone, only you will remain standing on top of a table with wigs on your feet,

talking about how much you care about everybody who has shown up. Now, look, this is, you know, Andrew is putting himself at profound emotional risk here, Marie, which I think you can appreciate.

If I were you,

I mean,

I can't force anyone to do anything, but you know a bunch of dancers, right?

So they should play the elves.

I mean,

let them

do a little research on some elf stuff. You know what I'm saying?

Because what would be better than to have a delegation of visiting elves to this hobbit party? And what better to be elves than

dancers?

Elves themselves are magical, willowy, remote, condescending creatures. That's what an elf is.
And I'll make it even worse.

You could be galadrial. I don't know what that is.
You don't have to go all that way.

But you understand how if we just make this a party about Andrew, who deserves a party, just as you deserve a party too, by the way, Marie, a party of your own liking to your own theming, which might just simply be, you know, party.

But I have a feeling that if you understand and your friends understand and his friends understand and your kids understand that this is an expression of Andrew of inner Andrew and a celebration of him the way a birthday party is a celebration of the birthday person, right?

That everything else will fall into place and be less strange and incomprehensible and a lot of fun.

And yeah, September 22nd, we'll be on our way to Ann Arbor, so I can't come to the party. Sorry.
That worked out for you, didn't it? But I'm actually tempted now that I've

now that I've talked Andrew into it. And by the way, this is a one-time thing.

You know, this is a one-time thing and it's going to, and I want you to pour yourself into it, Andrew, including understanding yourself and revealing yourself and just see how it feels.

And if it's uncomfortable at any point for either of you, litany against fear. I don't mind crossing the nerd streams.
Dune, Lord of the Rings, they go together.

And one more thing, Andrew, before I hit this gabble, go to the hardware store and just buy some lattice and put some lattice under there finally. Okay.
That thing's never going to happen.

You have to. This is part of the deal.
You got to put the lattice in. This is the sound of a gavel.

Turn off, my old friend.

This will be a night to remember.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.
Andrew, how are you feeling now? Are you ready to express your full self? Yeah, I'm ready.

Marie, how do you feel? I'm glad that after 17 years,

submitting this idea to a podcast with a maybe not so real judge is going to help to encourage him to express his full self.

Andrew Marie, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you.
Thank you.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. We'll have Swift Justice in just a second.

First, our thanks to Redditor underscore underscore magpie underscore underscore for naming this week's episode Mordor in the Court.

If you want to suggest titles for future episodes of Judge John Hodgman, hit us up on the Reddit maximumfun.reddit.com. John, I was on r/slash relationship memes yesterday,

which I love.

I'm adding it to my list of faves. Love it when it's wholesome.
Love it when it's horny.

But there was a meme on there that told the story of a young man who was a programmer.

And for his girlfriend's birthday, he made her a box that when she pressed a single red button would flash the lights in their bedroom so that he would know that she needed him to pay attention to her.

I just pictured Andrew

inside the garden of his mind.

Completing a circuit and sending a light out into the universe. Oh, I just love it.
Well, we do share the occasional dank meme, by the way, on our social media.

You can follow us there on maximumfund.reddit.com. You can also join us on Instagram at instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman.
We're also on TikTok and YouTube at judgejohnhodgman pod.

You can watch full episodes of judgejohnhodgman on YouTube these days. And John, this week, you can enjoy the neon gavel that's over my shoulder in my shot.
Yeah, that is a gorgeous neon gavel.

Who made that, Jesse? That was sent to us, I guess, years ago now by Danielle James, who is on Instagram at D underscore J underscore neon. And we've just had it in the office forever.

And Daniel Speer, our video producer and I, went searching around the office for stuff that could could decorate the set.

And we were like, oh, we finally have the perfect use for that awesome neon gavel.

So thank you, Danielle. You roll.
Thank you very much. Yeah, I mean, the bailiff's chambers have really been spiffied up since the last time we recorded.
And there's a gorgeous neon gavel behind you.

Everyone should go over to Judge John Hodgman pod on YouTube. Make sure that you subscribe.

hit notifications on the share everything there but also just enjoy the many many facial expressions of the Judge John Hodgman podcast that you maybe have never seen before.

And you get to see my copy of Board of the Rings. Hey, here's another thing: I want to say thank you to e-curtain 17 for leaving a review on Apple Podcasts.

e-Curtain 17 says, One of my must-listens, that's us, even though the judge once ruled against me in the pages of the New York Times magazine. I don't ever miss listening to an episode.

The show is informative. It's comedy, drama, therapy, disgusting recipe source, unlikely Tom Waits cover band.
It is everything you need in your ears, five stars. Thank you so much.

If you, you, the person I'm speaking to now, listener, if you enjoy the show, why don't you write a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcast?

You can start by rating our show on Pocketcast Now and or why not share one of our YouTube episodes with a friend and save and share our Instagram posts.

Hitting all those hearts and thumbs ups and likes and shares, especially on all of our platforms, it really does help people discover the show and we're very, very grateful.

And if you hate computers, good for you, reasonable. It's still a great day to tell a friend or family member about the show via your very own mouth.

Or even better, bring them to one of our live shows. Check out the schedule at maximumfund.org slash events.
Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode engineered by Jason Mundock at So Good Media in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Our social media manager is Natty Lopez.
The podcast is edited by A.J. McKeon.

Our video editor and set decorator been doing a lot of set decorating is daniel spear our producer is jennifer marmer now swift justice where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment this one is from a person who named this week's case underscore underscore magpie underscore underscore welcome back on the maximum fund subreddit okay here it is My friend and I live near each other, but in different time zones.

When we make plans to meet up, she asks whose time zone we're meeting in. I think we should plan around our destination's time zone instead of our time zones.
What do you think?

Well, if you're watching on the YouTube, you can see a facial expression, which is me trying to puzzle out what is apparently a math word problem. Yeah, my friend is a train going 40 miles an hour.

As an East Coast person who does a lot of dealings with people on the West Coast, boy, oh, boy, do I wish people recognized that the Eastern time zone exists when scheduling.

I'm not talking about you, Jesse. You're wonderful.
Obviously, maximum fun is bi-coastal, both in heart and in practice. But

all these people out there in the West Coast, they're like, yeah, you want to have a meeting at 6 p.m. Pacific time? I'm like, no, I don't.
That's when I'm resting quietly watching Letter Kenny.

Thank you very much. What were we talking about? Time zones? Oh, yeah.
Time zones. I think you just plan around.
I think you're right, Magpie. Plan around the destinations time zone.

That'll be the default time zone that you use. Like, I'll meet you at 6 o'clock, Chuck E.
Cheese time.

That's exactly right. You know what? Why don't you just default to the forgotten time zone, Atlantic time zone? Oh,

hey, let's default to Swatch Internet time.

The 100 parts of the day that

the Swiss watch company divided the day into in like 1997.

I think that the polite thing to do is to say, let's meet at X time my time,

X plus two, one, or plus one time your time, or whatever it is. Just be very, very clear about it.
That's all.

Speaking of time zones, as you listen to this episode, we are already crossing zones on our Judge John Odwin Road Court tour.

This weekend, we are going to be in Washington, D.C.

And you can get your tickets now at bit.ly slash DCJJ HO, or just go to maximumfund.org slash events for all of our upcoming shows, DC, Saturday night.

And soon we'll be zooming into Central Time, hitting up Ann Arbor, St. Paul, Madison, Wisconsin.
Get your tickets for all these shows at maximumfund.org slash events.

And make sure to send us your disputes. We'll consider any sort of case for our live shows.

So if you're going to be at a show or you would like to be at a show, even a sold-out show, and you've got a dispute for us to consider, send your disputes to maximumfund.org slash JJHO and tell us where you are.

Yeah, so like, let's say you're in Pittsburgh, where our show is already sold out, and you have a dispute with, I guess, probably the late Fred Rogers. I don't know why you would.

Maybe, maybe Andrew McCutcheon, Pirates Outfielder.

Anyway, go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO, submit your dispute, and just let us know that you're in Pittsburgh because we will get you in if we want to use your dispute on the program.

That's maximumfund.org slash JJHO. No matter where you are, we need your beeves.
We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artists-owned shows. Supported directly by you.