(I Can't Get No) Legal Action

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, I can't get no legal action.

Aaron brings the case against his friend, Marcus.

Aaron and Marcus are part of a Rolling Stones tribute band.

Aaron wants to add the Rolling Stones hit, Start Me Up, to their set list, but it's a non-starter for Marcus.

Marcus says the song is overplayed.

Who's right, Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

I missed my trash pickup at my home in North Haven.

I just didn't get it out to the curb in time.

But then I realized I could bring my trash to Maury's, so I drove down there.

And I see Mike in front of Toad's, and he's unloading equipment from a truck.

And I'm thinking, why is Mike doing this?

What about the Roadies?

I walk over and I say, hey, Mike.

And he says, hi, Wayne.

And he had a strange look on his face, like he was hiding something.

And then he said, Wayne, I'm going to tell you something I've only told my wife and my priest.

I've got Judge John Hodgman Road Court live coming to the club tonight.

And I said,

sure, Mike, tell me another one.

But then I saw he was serious.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Aaron, Marcus, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God or whatever.

Yes, I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's probably never even used the official operating system of Start Me Up, Windows 95?

Yes, yes.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

When I first moved to New York City

in 1994,

that was a year passed, and then 1995 came out,

the year, and then the operating system.

And I remember going to rent a video cassette, and one of the video cassettes you could rent

was

Jennifer Aniston

teaching you how to use Windows 95.

You could rent a video cassette.

Was it Jennifer Anniston and Matthew Perry, rest in peace,

teaching you how to use Windows 95?

I don't, I've never seen that on YouTube.

Maybe it's out there.

Maybe everyone's watched this.

Yeah, this is

a famous video.

This is definitely on YouTube.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

Never mind.

I'm not revealing anything.

This is an unobscure cultural reference.

However, as a special Easter egg to our viewers on YouTube at Judge John Hodgman Pod,

I am in an undisclosed location this time, one that has never been seen before in my background.

Neither my office in Brooklyn, New York, nor the studios of WERUFM in Orland, Maine.

I'm in a third place, an important part of social life, a third place.

And it is in Maine.

And if you wanted to.

Are you at the bowling alley or the cafe?

Yeah, that's right.

I'm at the corner pub.

No, I'm in an apartment above a garage in Maine for reasons of my own.

And you can take a look at it if you want.

over at the YouTube because it's the only time you're ever going to see this spot.

I guarantee you.

This is the closest view into into my private lifeline you'll ever see all right that's probably not true either uh but meanwhile iron and marcus you may be seated for an immediate summary judgments in one of your favors can either of you name the piece of culture that i reference as i enter this courtroom uh

marcus why don't you guess first

oh gosh i i don't i could not pull that reference up

could not pull now listen you you two are in a rolling stones tribute band is that fair to say yes Right.

Tribute band.

I'm not insulting you in any way, correct?

Okay.

Dirty work.

How about that?

Okay,

but that's an album.

That's a Norm McDonald movie.

It's a Norm McDonald movie, and it's also a Rolling Stones album.

Okay.

Did you think my quote came from an extended lyric?

Was it a spoken word album?

No, it was.

I mean, no, it had lyrics.

I mean,

I have to confess,

I didn't recognize the lyrics if that's what it was.

Marcus, are you the lead singer of the stand?

Okay, so

showboat, everyone carries, everyone carries him.

I got you.

Yeah, that's right.

Minimum effort.

I understand.

There's a Rolling Stones joke in the Norm McDonald movie Dirty Work where they're about to have a big bar fight.

And then

Chris Farley says, puts a quarter in the jukebox and says, Rolling Stone, street fighting man, L7.

And he accidentally presses L8 and the piña colada song plays

while they have a big part of it.

That's wonderful.

But Jesse,

it's not dirty work by Norm McDonald.

That guess is wrong.

I'm sorry.

It should have been.

All right.

Aaron, what's your guess?

Yes.

Oh, I love this energy, Aaron.

Okay, what's your guess?

I'm going to say the fan, Robert De Niro movie.

The fan?

Yeah, a lot of Rolling Stone songs in there.

That's the best I could do.

Classic Giants movie, San Francisco Giants movie.

Are people, and it's not the, it's not a San Francisco Giants movie.

It's not dirty work.

All guesses are wrong.

Do people even listen to the obscure cultural references anymore?

Are they just come in with their own guesses?

These guesses are pandering to me.

I'm glad someone's finally pandering to me.

They always guess Mountain Goats or Tom Waits or something.

They're guessing this Giants movie with Wesley Snipes and they're guessing a Norm McDonald movie.

Yeah, you're right.

You know what?

My bailiff deserves a pander.

You both get A minus for effort and pandering, but you both fail because all guesses are wrong.

Listen,

I gave you, hey, hey, Mr.

Policeman, I gave you all the clues.

North Haven,

Maury's, Toad's Place.

Did you hear these references that I was dropping?

What am I?

What city am I talking about?

Aaron, Marcus,

let me take you back in time to a magical time called August 12th, 1989,

when the Rolling Stones performed for the first time in eight years

to 700 people at an unannounced appearance at the legendary rock club of New Haven, Connecticut, Toad's Place.

Okay.

And what I quoted from that

was

a bit of the oral history of Toad's Place called The Legendary Toad's Place,

which as far as I'm concerned, I mean, look, they had some incredible bands play there.

I've seen tickets to doves from Toad's Place with like Talking Heads,

Tom Tom Club, Sinead O'Connor played Toads.

I saw Public Enemy with Fishbone opening at Toad's Place.

That's cool.

It was pretty cool for a Yale freshman.

Thought I was the coolest thing on earth, and I remembered him.

Freshman at Yale, nerd.

Chuck D was like, any rocket scientists in the house?

It was fun.

Toad's Place, legendary.

Great place that belongs to a toad.

Anyway, here we are.

You both lose.

Now one of you is going to have to win this actual dispute.

Who seeks justice in this court?

I do, Your Honor.

By the way, that's all I know about the Rolling Stones.

They played Toad's Place in 1989, right before I got to college.

You're going to have to educate me a little bit here.

Now,

Aaron, it was you who seeks justice in this court, correct?

Yes.

And you want to play the song Start Me Up in your Rolling Stones tribute band, correct?

Exactly.

I feel like it's essential.

We need it.

Your band is called...

We're the Tumbling Dice.

The Tumbling Dice Dice.

Which is a Rolling Stones song.

Yes.

And you and Marcus are in the band together.

And Aaron,

what's your role in the band?

Tambourine?

I'm the Keith Richards.

I play guitar.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

You're the Keith Richards and you're the immortal drug addict?

Yeah.

Yes.

I wish I had his habits sometimes.

This looks like a fun life, but

I just play the parts.

Wonderful musician,

terrible role model.

Uh,

and Marcus, that would make you the

what?

The Mick Jagger, the Mick Jagger, the lead singer, the showboat.

This is correct, the tumbling dice.

And you don't want to play Start Me Up, correct?

I do not want to play Start Me Up for the simple fact that when I started the band, I wanted the band to be in the Mick Taylor era, which is

69 through 74.

Right.

That, I think, is their best

string of albums.

Okay.

I didn't really want to play 80s

Stones, but they have such a catalog that,

you know, their whole catalog is leaked into our

set list.

It's a pretty iconic song.

Marcus, wouldn't you agree?

Yes, it is.

And I do like the song.

You know,

I'm a second generation Stones fan.

My dad really had me listening to the Stones from the day I was born.

This isn't a birthright citizenship situation.

Not like you get extra credit.

But I do remember, you know, kind of discovering them on my own on TV.

They played Start Me Up.

I think it was on like Solid Gold or one of those, you know, music shows.

Right.

Because you're not, you, I mean, 69 to 74,

you weren't probably weren't even born then during the mick taylor era well actually i was born in 71 so i was uh yeah but i wasn't going to uh madison square garden um you know as a one-year-old so then what kind of rolling stones fan was your dad if he wasn't taking you

i know seriously

come on dad

you know yeah

i guess he is what you would call a responsible parent who doesn't bring a child to a rock concert in order to in order to flex his incredible taste And here you are, a Rolling Stones anchor baby.

Let me ask you this question before I forget this joke.

You don't like Start Me Up.

Would you consider playing Stop Me Up, the weird Al Yankovic parody of the song about constipation that doesn't exist but should.

That's it.

It's a little blue for weird Al.

It's all right, but maybe it's just right for tumbling dice.

Aaron, how did this band get together?

How long have you guys been playing together?

How did it start?

It's been about five years, I think.

You know, I had been

playing guitar on my own and I had learned about open tunings.

And I started playing a lot of open tuning songs, a lot of Rolling Stones that way.

And at some point, I was.

All right, you got to explain.

You got to explain this to me because I don't understand what it means.

So an open tuning is when you can strum the strings and it will just do a chord for you.

It's like open G tuning.

You strum it, it get a G chord.

A lot of the best, you know, Rolling Stone songs are in open tuning.

So I learned a lot of them that way.

And I mean, I grew up a Beatles baby.

I'll be totally clear on that.

So, you know, for me, I hadn't really listened to a lot of stones, but I really started to love the music.

And I started to feel like, I want to be in a band for this.

This is amazing, you know?

You're saying you have dual citizenship?

I guess you have a passport for both.

Yes.

Yeah.

So it was just Craigslist.

I mean, a lot of bands, this is pretty common now, Craigslist.

So

I found his ad

and he was looking for a Keith Richards.

I think you were even explicit about that, needing a Keith Richards, you know, not just a guitar player.

Who said you're in the band?

I did.

Marcus.

Marcus, you started the band.

I started the band.

So I have another band that's an original band

called the Rhines, And we got invited to play a Halloween show in San Francisco at the Elbow Room.

And they asked a lot of local bands that they liked to pick a band that was influential to them and do a cover set of that band.

Gotcha.

So the previous year, we did the Ramones, and then that next year

we did the Stones.

We had a lot of fun doing it.

The Stones are my favorite band.

Yes, I hear that your father was into them as well.

Yeah, exactly.

So,

you know, and we just had so much fun doing it that we just kept doing it.

You know, band has gone through a lot of lineup changes.

Why?

You're kicking a lot of people out because they're trying to get you to play Start Me Up.

Is Aaron hanging by a thread here because he's pushing for Start Me Up?

No, Aaron is an incredible musician, and he actually does an incredible job of being Keith Richards in the band.

Judge Hodgman, my best friend, Pete Fields of the Slow Motion Cowboys, has played that Halloween show at the Elbow Room, which is like blocks from where I grew up.

Wow.

That is very cool.

That is very cool.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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So just a little bit more background about the, about this case.

When did the two of you get together to come up with this obviously fake dispute in order to buzz market your band on my podcast.

No, no, no.

I'm going to insist on this.

This is not fake because we've been talking about this for years.

And at some point, I think it was maybe six months ago, we were coming home from

a show.

We see the Black Crows.

Yep.

And I, you know, I've been, I've been telling him about this and I was like, more like the black on the nose.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's on the, yeah.

Um, so I said, listen, I, you know, I have been thinking, I've been watching the show for, or listening to the show for many years.

So it's always been in the back of my mind, like maybe something will come up.

So it did come up about six months ago.

And I said to him, yeah, you know, I, I, I might bring you to court if we don't play Start Me Up.

Like, I'm serious about this.

And we have played it, I think, once, maybe twice.

Yeah, we played it at rehearsal a couple times.

And I think we may have played it at a show.

The chicken pie shop.

Chicken pie shop.

Okay.

So we, we, whoa, what's the chicken pie shop?

Now you got my attention.

Jesse, can you fill me in on that one?

I don't have any background on that, but I'm interested to hear about it.

That's in Walnut Creek.

It's a restaurant

that has a bar.

And I think we played for three hours.

Wait a minute.

I say I have no background on this.

100%.

I've heard commercials for this restaurant during the Giants game on the radio.

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

Definitely the kind of restaurant that advertises on local radio during baseball games.

It's a big space.

They have a big stage.

And we've had to play for three hours.

When you have that much time to fill, you sort of throw everything in there.

But in general, right, we do hour, hour and a half shows, maybe a couple sets.

So we haven't played it in a long time.

Yeah.

So you only played it at the chicken pie shop because you needed to, because you had to stretch for time.

I was able to squeeze that.

We played Winter, another Rolling Stones.

I love that song.

We've never played that one again.

You played By Her Majesty's Satanic Request in its entirety.

The whole thing.

That would be awesome.

What, Marcus?

What is your opposition to playing Start Me Up?

It is

a crowd pleaser.

Is that your opposition?

It is a crowd pleaser, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Marcus, George Hodgman, Marcus didn't get into the cover band business to please crowds.

You know, I really wanted the band to

play

deep cuts.

I wanted the band to be for people that are really big stones fans that

you know generational stones fans.

Yeah, you know, and I mean some of the band members are more like, you know, why are we not only playing their number one hits?

And, you know, so I think, you know, because it's a democracy,

you know, we try to

appease everybody's opinion in the band, you know.

Is it a democracy?

Are bands democracies?

Is the Rolling Stones a democracy?

I'm just curious.

I don't think so.

No, no.

Who's in charge of the Rolling Stones?

Mick Jagger.

He actually does their business.

He is their CEO.

Like, he does the

majority of the business handlings of the band.

Okay, so Mick Jagger is the boss of the band.

And guess what?

He plays Start Me Up.

Right, Marcus?

You think he's wrong?

No, I don't think he's wrong.

You think he's bandering?

He wrote the song, you know?

Right.

Him and Keith, you know.

right.

Oh, you think he's a bad songwriter because he wrote a bad song that you don't want to play?

I wouldn't say that at all.

I love the Rolling Stones, they're my favorite band.

If you saw Mick Jagger, would you tell him, well, there's one thing I'll never do is play Start Me Up because it's pandering.

Well, I definitely wouldn't say that to Keith or Mick.

Yeah.

But,

you know, and like I said, I have played it, but there are, we, I think we have about 50 stone songs that we choose from that we reduce down to an hour or two-hour set.

Aaron, do you feel, aside from Start Me Up, do you feel that the other band members actually do get a chance to

express themselves in the set list?

I think so.

I mean, there's a lot of us in the band, as you heard.

Yeah, I've heard all the names.

Yeah, there's a lot of us.

Ranzo and Christy and

Jumpin' Jack and Dieby.

That's right.

Yeah.

And I think we do try

and Wu-Tang

and Star-Lord and Gamora.

Right.

Okay.

You were saying they all, they all get a chance?

I do feel like in general, we try.

I mean, Marcus and I usually do the set lists

and we do like to listen.

You know, it's kind of like,

I don't know, things become popular.

Like we want to play this, we have fun with this.

We sort of rediscover that and we sort of cycle through things.

And we do try to keep it interesting.

You know, we've been doing it for a while.

So it is fun to kind of mix things up.

And there are times when,

you know, we're playing, maybe we've played in that town, you know, within the last couple of months.

So maybe we're going to mix it up, stuff like that.

So we do try to go out and ask band members what they want to play, what they want to do.

But in the end, I mean,

we have to put together the set, and that's usually the two of us.

Is there, right?

Because, well, who's, I mean, in the Rolling Stones,

is there a power sharing arrangement between keith and mick or is that a content is that a contentious relationship i think it's changed a lot over the years yeah i i think that uh you know they've called each other best friends but then also there was a big time in the 80s when they wouldn't even talk to each other but i think um yeah i think that they're they're they consider themselves brothers you know right they've family

sometimes family sometimes family is tough yeah right yeah they've known each other since they were like three and four years old like Like, right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I believe that they, I, my understanding is that they had just started speaking again when they got together to play this incredible legendary concert at Toads

in New Haven, by the way.

That is very cool.

Aaron, you submitted some evidence here, including some statistics.

These are the top six songs that the Rolling Stones have played live.

Number one,

Jumpin' Jack Flash.

That's about a guy who jumps, and it's Whoopi Goldberg.

It's about Whoopi Goldberg and Bobcat Goldfake.

Played 1,216 times as of August 2024 when we're recording this.

Then Honky Tonk Women, 1,157 times.

Then Tumbling Dice, that's the Rolling Stones Ode to Your Band,

1,142 times.

Brown Sugar, that's a song about nothing except a good natural sweetener, 1,137 times.

Satisfaction, also known as I can't get no satisfaction, that's a song about the creative process, 999 times.

And then, oh, coming in number six, Start Me Up, 938 times.

It's the sixth most played song in the Rolling Stones live oeuvre.

What are you trying to prove here with this, Aaron, that the people have spoken and you should listen to them or what?

Yeah, I think so.

I think it's the kind of song people expect.

I would also add that on the last tour, we saw that show show down in Santa Clara, they started with Start Me Up and they started all their shows on this last tour with Start Me Up.

Why do you think that's wrong to do, Marcus?

There's so many other songs that I like a little bit more.

That's probably why

it has not been in the set.

When they started the Santa Clara show with Start Me Up, did you go hold your nose and roll your eyes or what?

Or did you enjoy it?

No, I totally enjoyed it.

I was dancing and, you know, it was a great show.

It was really good.

Marcus, remember all those band members that we mentioned?

Yes.

Apparently, apparently, Aaron pulled them all with this question.

Okay.

Do you think the dice, that is the tumbling dice, your Rolling Stones tribute band?

Yep.

Should add Start Me up into our regular setless rotation?

Are you aware of what the band said?

I think there was probably more

bandmates on his side.

Let's go.

Let's do it.

Let's go.

Run it down.

T-Dice roll call.

Ranzo on keys says yes because it's a well-known stones hit.

Christian on lead guitar, your quote-unquote Ronnie Wood, says no, because it's boring to play.

Oh, oh, oh.

By the way, that's an argument that I haven't heard yet, Marcus.

So think on that one.

Okay.

Dante on bass says yes because it is a well-known hit and we should play mainly the hits.

Dante, boy, oh boy, Panderer.

Dre on backup vocals says yes, it's well-known catchy tune that Aaron can really rock.

Can't believe that you pulled the backup vocal guy.

Aaron, come on.

That guy gets a quarter vote at best.

Jan, the sound person,

okay, that's fair.

Says, yes, I believe.

Oh, listen, Jan wrote a whole paragraph.

I believe Start Me Up should be a regular addition to the Tumbling Dices set list.

The Rolling Stones use this song to kick off every one of their shows, and it's something that the fan base expects.

And finally, here comes Christy on saxophone.

Yes,

but only in certain settings.

If anything, okay, Marcus, this is going to you now.

If anything, it's too popular.

And what distinguishes us from our rival Stones tribute band, the unauthorized Rolling Stones, is we don't just do the hits.

Wait a minute, what?

You have a rival Rolling Stones tribute band?

You know, I'm sure there's a ton of Rolling Stones tribute bands all over the world.

And

actually, after I named the band The Tumbling Dice, I discovered that there's a bunch of other

tribute bands called the Tumbling Dice.

But like in our area, you know, the Unauthorized Rolling Stones.

But the

Unauthorized Rolling Stones, the URSs, they're your arch enemies.

I didn't say that.

Well, Christy says they just play the hits.

Is that true?

I saw the unauthorized Rolling Stones one time.

It was a long time ago, like probably 20 years ago at the Alameda County Fair.

And

I only caught like two songs and I couldn't even tell you what two songs they were.

But I thought you were going out of your way to not shade them, but you're just like, yeah, I saw them play something.

I didn't know what they were doing.

No, but I mean, you know, they are.

You made a big point of like saying, I saw them at the county fair, too.

I get you.

You're playing the elbow room and the URS is there playing the county fair.

Yeah, we would be stoked to play the county fair.

You know, I'm not trying to throw them shade.

What would you say is the mission

of the tumbling dice?

The mission of the tumbling dice is to play Rolling Stone songs to the best of our ability and try to

at least bring the energy and the authenticity of the Rolling Stones songs and our own interpretation of them.

Yeah, but if you wanted to be authentic to the Rolling Stones live experience, it would seem that you would play Start Me Up first because that is something the Rolling Stones do.

So how is that not consistent with the mission of the band?

Well, I'm sure that they don't always place Start Me Up as

their opener, you know?

Well, maybe you should talk to your own sound person, Jan.

If you look at the same thing.

Rolling Stones use this song to kick off every one of their shows, and it's something the fan base expects.

They played it.

They opened with Start Me Up in Santa Clara, sir, and every show on that tour.

And guess what?

They opened up with a Toad's Place in New Haven, the most important rock concert of all time.

Guess what they opened with?

I would argue that.

Which one did they open with?

That's not a guess.

You turn the question around on me.

Start me up.

Okay, all right.

Starting me up right now, Marcus.

i would say that

their best concert was madison square garden in 1972 and at that particular time start me up did not exist so they did not so they'd be pretty amazing if they had played it when it didn't exist

so they did not open a show at madison square garden with start me up and as a matter of fact they didn't even play that song because it wasn't available yet you're so focused on this madison square garden gig that you missed when you were one years old because your dad wasn't cool enough to bring you

What was this?

Maybe that's why I'm so mad that

you're so mad that you missed that show that you want to erase Start Me Up out of existence.

You want to go back.

You want to make the Mick Taylor era great again.

I mean, that was the era for me.

So

give me a little history here, right?

So the Rolling Stones start in 1960, blah, blah, blah, blah.

What's that?

I think it's 64.

Okay, let's say that.

Brian Jones is the guitarist who passes away.

Yes, first member of the band that

had passed away.

And his place is taken by Mick Taylor.

Mick Taylor, Michael Kevin Taylor, born January 17th, 1949.

And he's a member of the Rolling Stones for these critical years, 1969 to 1974.

Appearing on the albums, Let It Bleed, Get Your Yaya's Out, Sticky Fingers, Exile on Main Street.

These are some, Aaron, you have to admit, these are some iconic albums.

Absolutely.

Even I know this one.

Goat's Head Soup.

Woo!

Goat's Head Soup, scariest album cover I've ever seen in my life.

So,

why did he leave the band and ruin your life before it had even started practically?

I think

Mick Taylor left the band because he was dealing with drug problems.

And I think maybe the amount of fame that the Rolling Stones had and probably still do have maybe wasn't just what he was.

I could, I, you'd have to ask Mick Taylor that.

That's just, I mean, oh, hang on one second.

Hey, Mick, are you here?

Weirdly, he's not in a

guest department above a garage in Maine for some reason, but you never know.

He's still, at least from what I've read.

Um, you know, I don't think he was getting a lot of credit, too.

I think his contributions were immense, but he wasn't getting writing credits on things.

And I, I think he felt underappreciated, too.

Gotcha.

Well, he had come, he had already been

in the blues breakers, right?

So he was an established guitarist.

Maybe he felt like, I don't know.

We'll have to ask him one of these days.

Hey, Mick Taylor, if you're Judge John Hodgman listener, let me know.

MaximumFun.org slash JJA Joe.

Send me an email.

Judge Hodgman, I have a quick update flying in here.

Yes, please.

Headlining at the Blue Hill Fair.

Yeah.

You've got 21 Gun Salute.

That's an AC DC cover band.

That's going going to be hot.

Besides that, however, I think more importantly, you've got your live play of Charlotte's Web.

Yeah.

You've got the Llama and Alpaca demo, Women's Skillet Toss.

That's my favorite event.

You have the dangerous feats of comedy, Juggling Strength and Fire.

That's on the Cedar Midway.

Yeah, I've seen them.

And then I think

you've got, probably most importantly, you've got All About Dairy.

That's a milk educational panel.

And then

actually going on after the ACDC, the ACDC cover band technically opening for Dynamo Dogs and Pool Party Pooches.

I don't think they're on the same stage because I've seen the Dynamo Dogs before, and they're great.

They're just dogs that are jumping over pools.

It's like evil can evil, but dogs.

Love it.

That's cool.

Marcus, how many bands have a song thematically, so perfectly suited to a particular part in a cover band set?

That is a good point.

It's almost too perfect.

I actually sympathize with you, Marcus, because it's almost too perfect.

Like, there's almost no

challenge to it.

So, one little argument I might say, like, if you listen to classic rock radio, right,

and you're a big fan of a band and you, you know, you've been waiting for two hours or maybe all day to hear a song by your favorite band, whether it's Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix, the Rolling Stones, you know, whoever it is, you know, the talking, the Talking Heads or Blondie or whoever it is.

And then your song comes into rotation and it's Start Me Up.

It's not, it's, it's a great song.

It's a, it's, it's a great song, but maybe you were hoping for something a little bit more,

you know, loving cup or just a song that's still a popular song, but maybe just off the beaten path a little bit.

Do you think that's what people are looking for at the chicken pie shop?

That's a very good question.

I don't know.

Because I'm buying it at the, I personally, I'm buying it at the elbow room.

I know, look, when Pete Fields and Slow Motion Cowboys play, I think they maybe they play Neil Young, something like that at the elbow room.

I'm sure there's people there who are heavy-duty Neil Young nuts, and they're like, yeah, play the weird stuff.

I don't know enough about Neil Young to name what the weird stuff is, but they're like, yeah, play the weird stuff where he's making that weird, nasally whine sound.

Aaron, we've heard from the band and also the sound guy, and all but one would love to incorporate Start Me Up into the lineup based on your poll.

Two.

are you counting yourself marcus yes i am oh okay

all right

so in any case aaron have you done have you ever sensed that the audience is sad not to hear start me up i mean like judge john hodgman they didn't play back in black sad

i have to admit no i i don't think i've ever had anyone come up to me and say wait why didn't you guys play start me up yeah right no i've never heard that but maybe that's because you know we

the one that's saying I don't want to play.

Maybe because you're closed off to all feedback.

I'm sorry.

Go ahead, Aaron.

All the other top six songs that we were talking about earlier, we do play those.

Yeah.

But that's the Start Me Up is the one.

And are all these top six songs, Jumping Jack, Flash, Honky Tonk Woman, Tumbling Dice, Brown Sugar, which is about a sweetener, and I can't get no satisfaction, are they all from the Mick Taylor era?

Yes or no?

Honky Tonk Women, yes, Tumbling Dice, yes.

Brown Sugar, yes.

No.

Jumping Jack Flash.

That's a gas, gas, gas.

I think B, maybe?

I get no satisfaction.

No, that's not.

That's not.

So just so that I understand, the difference between the best era for you, the McTaylor era, and then the later era is what?

How would you describe them?

Can you give me some adjectives besides best?

like descriptive adjectives that explain what the qualitative difference is beside between the songs.

Sorry to be aggressive, but I just need to, as a non-stones person, I kind of want to understand.

The songs were able to be in a blues rock and roll country atmosphere, but also be avant-garde and be like maybe a touch psychedelic.

The lyrical content, just the overall songs, all of the horn arrangements, the piano, the lead guitar, the backing vocals, the vocals, everything.

I mean, it's just, I mean.

Because the Rolling Stones really started as essentially a blues cover band.

And so you're saying that they still have a lot of the DNA of the blues.

Yes, but they started doing a lot less covers and writing their own songs.

And those songs, I think, were the best ones, you know.

So how would you say their sound had changed by the time Start Me Up had come along?

Maybe they went back to a format of shorter songs,

more condensed songs.

And I'm sure there's a couple longer songs on there too, but maybe they were trying to write songs that, you know, would play on the radio well.

A little bit more radio fan-friendly.

Maybe.

A little bit less weird and funky and goat's head soupy.

Right.

All right.

Aaron, you submitted some evidence, including a clip from the tonight show where Keith Richards plays guitar for Jimmy Fallon.

I watched the video, it's very charming.

Um, I'm not going to play it now for two reasons: one, I've seen Jimmy Fallon do his Mick Jagger impersonation once today because of this video, and two,

because uh, you have your own guitar to play there in studio, right?

In the Bay Area, I do.

So,

in the video that you sent,

Jimmy makes this poor old man

play legendary songs for him so that Jimmy Fallon can do his imitation of Mick Jagger, which seems like a, I think even Jimmy Fallon would say, a wildly selfish thing to do.

And yet everyone has a lot of fun, right?

It's a fun moment, wouldn't you say, Aaron?

Yeah.

What did you want me to understand about the song Start Me Up that you thought was illustrated in this video clip?

He seems to be having a good time, even at his

advanced,

I don't want to say advanced age.

I mean, he's a remarkably well-preserved human for someone who's punished his body that much.

And, you know, even if it's sloppy, I think that's sort of part of the style that, you know, having an open G guitar means you can just more focus on having fun and just sort of vibing with the music.

And what I think is important about that clip is because when he does, there's two things actually.

So he starts Start Me Up.

And you can immediately hear an audience reaction.

You hear people go, woo, boo, boo, stop pandering to us.

Play the deep cuts.

But it goes, it goes da-na-na, and then there's that little break.

That's the perfect time where people and they immediately recognize it, right?

It's iconic in that sense, and they immediately jump in and they start writing that little break.

I don't want to get in trouble with ASCAP, so don't play Start Me Up.

Instead, play Stop Me Up by Weird Al Yankovic, which is very similar.

Yeah, Stop Me Up goes, but it has the thickest string, so that's how it's different.

Let's hear it.

Woo!

Fun song, isn't it?

It's a fun riff.

It's easy to play.

For me, it's very fun.

I will say for me, it's very fun.

Well, let me ask you this question.

Do you want to play Start Me Up because selfishly it just gives you this opportunity to rock, much like your bandmate suggested?

I mean, that's a big part of it.

Dre on Backup Vocals says it's a well-known and catchy tune that Aaron can really rock.

Yes,

it's very easy to play.

It's a very iconic riff.

It's the kind of thing that if your guitar is tuned to standard, it can actually feel hard.

And a lot of people don't want to mess with this tuning.

And, you know, so it's impressive, I guess, in that way, even if it's very easy to play.

Do you feel like you don't have opportunities to rock enough?

Oh, no, no, I got plenty of those.

Plenty of kids.

It's not a big deal.

But Aaron, don't you, tell me, tell me the truth.

You like the idea that kicking off the show with those woos is you as Keith Richards instead of Marcus as Mick Jagger?

I mean, I don't think of it as an oppositional thing, but I do love starting.

I start probably three-quarters of the songs, anyways.

So it's not that different.

When you think of the most iconic opening riffs of Rolling Stone songs, what are the top three?

I think

maybe Jumpin' Jack Flash,

Brown Sugar,

the Sweetener.

Yep.

Brown Sugar, the Sweetener song does sound like a weird owl song.

Can't you hear me?

Can't you hear me knocking?

Are there any other songs that Marcus has blacklisted that you would like to play?

This is the last one.

I mean, over the years, we've added more and more from different members of the band, but I can't think of any other song where I'd love to play winter again, but we kind of decided that's like a December

seasonal kind of Christmas shows.

Marcus, do you feel like you've already made enough accommodation?

Like, what are some of the songs that you've agreed to that if you really had your way, you wouldn't be bothering with?

If I had my way, I probably would just be playing the songs from 69 to 74.

Right.

So we play Miss You, we play Beast of Burden.

Those are all songs outside of your chosen era that you have compromised.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, but then other people that are purists might say, why don't you guys play more of the Brian Jones era stuff?

You know, no one's saying that.

No one's saying that.

You sent in a nice photo that we'll share on the Judge Sean Hodgman Instagram page and all of our social media of what's called the extended tumbling dice family.

Who am I looking at here?

This is everybody.

So we took this outside of the

Ivy Room.

Yeah, we have a show coming up at the Ivy Room on Saturday, September 21st.

Yeah, I mean, I guess part of the point here was just to show you that we're kind of trying to balance a lot of different interests in the band.

And we really do try to treat it as much of a democracy as we can.

I think in the end, you know, somebody has to make the decisions.

And Marcus is the leader of the band.

So

I get to say no.

Yeah, well, I mean, that's what Marcus is trying to tell you.

No, here I've accommodated all these other junk non-McTaylor era songs.

This is the one.

This is, here is, you know, here is where I take my stand.

I just, I can't get it out of my head it's a you know it it's a catch start me up it's it's a catchy song i you know nobody's requested it ever but i i do think that people when they leave they probably go you know didn't hear start me up i don't know it would strike me as weird marcus what do you open with typically don't tell me sing it

uh

I was born in a crossfire hurricane.

That's a good song.

Yeah.

Yep.

What's that called?

Crossfire Hurricane?

Yep.

No, that's Jumpin' Jack Flash.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I knew that, I guess.

That's old Jumpin' Jack.

Jumpin' Jack Flash is a pretty hot song to open with, too.

I mean, that's a very upbeat song.

And a pretty good Whoopi Goldberg action comedy.

That's right.

Yeah, that is a good, that is a great movie.

Can you offer any evidence, Aaron, that not playing Start Me Up is hurting the band's show?

I mean, no one's complaining.

No.

I mean, I'm just being honest.

I can't.

It says here, Marcus, that you want me to rule that you never play Start Me Up

and also to print shirts that say, don't ask me about Start Me Up.

Whose idea was that?

I think that would be so great.

Even if I had to play it, but I'm just wearing a shirt that says, don't ask me about Start Me Up.

That's really cool.

Is it just the case that people have been, the band has been bugging you about this so much?

You want me to shut this down now and forever?

You know what?

I told Aaron, I said, if

if you get the win, then I will never complain about playing Start Me Up.

And I felt like I didn't really complain about playing Start Me Up that much.

This kind of came out of nowhere.

Like I didn't realize that it was that important to Aaron to play Start Me Up.

Aaron, why is this so important to you?

It's a fun song.

It's fun to play, as I said.

I really like the innuendo that we, you know, we were hinting at earlier.

I like that about the stones.

I like that they're sort of dirty and they got that most dangerous band in the world.

They are bad boys.

It's one, you know, I mean, it's a very poppy song, yes, but it has those connotations.

And I love songs that do that.

Do you defend Start Me Up from Marcus's accusation that it's simply pop radio pablum?

I do.

I think there's an undercurrent there that makes it more than meets the eye.

And I think, you know, the fact that it works so well as an opener is a plus.

Marcus, now that you know that it's so important to Aaron, how does, how does, has your opinion changed?

How does that make you feel?

Yeah, I've, I'm, I'm, I consider myself to be a team player, and I do love Aaron a lot.

He brings so much to the table, you know, and, you know, him saying like it's really important to me makes me kind of like say, like, you know, we should probably play

Start Me Up.

Before you make my decision for me, Marcus, Aaron,

do you have a show coming up that in particular that you would like to start

it up with Start Me Up?

I think the next show at the Ivy Room, we got to do Start Me Up.

That's what I want.

And then I want it to be on the list, you know, so we can add it as needed, maybe half the time.

Marcus,

has the band ever played Start Me Up?

Yes, I believe we have played it at a show or two.

And you sang it.

Yes.

And how did you feel it went?

How did you feel as you were singing it?

How did you feel after you sang it?

I think I sang it okay.

How did you feel about the fact that you played it?

I had fun.

All right.

You didn't feel like you sold out your soul?

No,

I didn't feel like I sold out my soul.

All right.

Will you or will you not be hearing Start Me Up when you go to the Ivy Room to hear Tumbling Dice on September 21st uh you'll find out in a moment because i'm going to go into my chambers i'll consider my decision i'll be back in a moment with my verdict please rise as judge john hodgman exits the courtroom marcus how do you feel about your chances right now

it's it's uh it's it's kind of feeling like it's leaning uh aaron's way do you think your strategic retreat is going to work

no

But I felt that rather than just be the curmudgeon that, you know, doesn't want to play start me up, like maybe that doesn't look great either.

So, Aaron, how do you feel?

I feel good.

So, you know,

I've been around.

I've listened to enough of the shows to know that, you know, the judge likes to throw curveballs.

So I don't know.

He probably wouldn't describe it as throwing curveballs.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

You You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years, and

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened, and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and Me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast, and we are preparing for the Road Court tour.

I know I'm preparing anyway, John.

I just had a music lesson with my music teacher, Nico.

I'm still thinking about which of the many songs I'm considering to sing on the show.

But Jesse, you know, earlier in this episode, you mentioned the Blue Hill Fair and all of the fun things that are happening there.

I noticed that you didn't mention that on Saturday at 9 a.m., 4-H and Open Beef Show.

Open Beef Show.

First of all, any show we do is an open beef show, if you know what I'm talking about.

That's just what I was going to say.

It basically describes our live Judge John Hodgman show.

Oh, you're talking about disputes.

I was just talking about the beef on display.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well,

the only beef cake that is displayed occasionally is my calves if I lift my robe up.

Yeah, no, I mean, we have an open beef show about to hit the road, and we're really excited about it.

Obviously, it's better when you're there.

Tickets are going really, really fast.

So please get over to maximumfund.org slash events to get your tickets for New York, Philadelphia, D.C.

Ann Arbor is sold out.

Pittsburgh is sold out.

Gosh, but there's still plenty of tickets available at Madison, Wisconsin, St.

Paul, Burlington, Vermont.

That's happening the day after the election.

Get your tickets now because you'll want to be with friends one way or the other that day.

Portland, Maine, Turner's Falls, Falls, Brookline, Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Oregon, Los Angeles, you know where we're going.

And if you don't know, go to maximumfund.org slash events to find out right now.

That's maximumfund.org slash events.

And look, the first leg of this tour is right around the corner, so do not delay.

And if you have a dispute for us for the open beef show, go to maximumfund.org slash jjho.

Even for those sold-out shows, we'll get you in if you've got a good dispute that we can use on stage.

So no matter what your dispute is, no dispute too big or too small.

Jennifer will sort through them.

Don't worry.

Go to maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho.

Let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Before I rule in Aaron's favor, because this is obvious where we're going, you made the decision for us, Marcus.

I just do want to say I appreciate where you're coming from.

You know, like you want to curate a particular era of the Rolling Stones.

You're not doing this,

you know, for money any more than the Rolling Stones at this point are doing it for money.

You're doing it for,

I can't get no satisfaction, some inner desire.

Because, I mean, I presume you're not making a fortune off of this, right?

Doing it out of the love of the Rolling Stones music and songs, and also the love of my fellow bandmates.

Well, not all of the songs, though, is the thing.

Not even the lion's share of the Rolling Stones' career.

A very specific period of time.

And to your credit, like, you know,

you don't want to be captured by the hits.

You know what I mean?

And yet, to your credit, even though this is the, you know, on the pathway to insufferable gatekeeperism,

you are appreciate that Aaron is a, is a really talented uh guitarist.

The other members of your band are very talented, that you have to be open to them in a creative collaboration and you and you can't just have it be

the Mick Taylor era only, and that's it.

And

I have to credit you for that.

That's really good.

That's a really good place for you to be in.

And, you know, honestly, if you were a little bit more truculent, if you were a little bit more snobby, if you wanted to hold the line and actually turn this into a fight of some kind, it would have been a more exciting podcast.

But

I'm happier that you are who you are and the whole human being that you are being open to the fact that, you know, you're in this with other human beings and they also have feelings.

And you're not just the lead singer.

You're not the star.

You're part of a band.

A lot of bands don't understand that.

So

obviously,

when you open the show on September 21st, right?

At the Ivy, whatever.

Yep.

You're going to open with meow meow meow.

Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow.

But you're going to sing the actual words.

Actually, it would be pretty hot if you sang stop me up.

But maybe we'll save that.

Maybe we'll save that for when you play the Toad's Place.

I'll see if I can get you guys books there.

See if that can happen.

That would be really cool.

But I will, but in honor of your reticence and your openness and your good idea,

Marcus, I am going to suggest that you have a t-shirt made saying,

don't ask me about Start Me Up.

Actually, I'm going to have the t-shirt just say, stop me up

that you have to wear when you sing that song.

And you know what?

It's on you now, Aaron.

If it doesn't go great, guess what?

It's not on the list anymore.

Ooh.

Fair.

I think you have to really kill it.

And I want video that we can share on the YouTube channel.

And you have a YouTube channel, I'm sure, of course, right?

We do.

Yeah.

Go ahead.

Say it.

Oh, gosh.

Tumbling Dice on YouTube.

Sorry.

I think it might be as good as promoting your YouTube channel as we are as good as promoting our YouTube channel.

The Tumbling Dice Bay Area, maybe.

The Tumbling Dice Bay Area, maybe.

I'll tell you what.

make sure to film it and

we'll share it from our YouTube as well as a link.

Okay.

And I hope that you kill it because otherwise you've just wasted all of our time, Aaron.

Oh,

we will.

You'd make a grown man cry

if you don't kill it.

You'd make a grown man cry.

This is the sound of a gavel.

No, funny.

Judge John Hodgman rules.

That is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Aaron, how are you feeling?

Great.

Great.

I feel really good about the ruling and we will kill it, no doubt.

How about you, Marcus?

I'm feeling good.

Don't expand on that, Marcus.

I mean,

yeah, I'm feeling good.

I mean, I, you know, obviously we're going to play Start Me Up and we're going to kill it.

Aaron, Marcus, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

It's been a joy to have you.

Thank you so much for having us.

Thank you for having us.

It was really fun.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

We'll have Swift Justice in just a second.

First, our thanks to Redditor S.J.

Hamilton43 for naming this week's episode, I Can't Get No Legal Action.

I think it was one of our best, just like right on target names in a long time.

Absolutely.

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Thank you this week to Bethwood Hamilton, who wrote, I've been listening to Judge John Hodgman for almost a decade.

This is from Monday, by the way.

And it never fails to make me laugh and lift my spirits.

It is a staple of family road trips with my 14 and 16-year-old sons who also enjoy it.

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Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

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Now Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment.

Cuttenlinish

on the Maximum Fund subreddit asks, How do you spell cuttlefish?

No.

How much is too much to keep in stock?

I keep extra containers of commonly used items in my home.

I was going to say it depends on where you are in your retirement planning.

Right.

I keep extra containers of commonly used items in my home in case I run out before my weekly grocery shopping.

My husband says, stop it.

Yeah, well, you know, I am someone who loves and takes great pleasure in a well-stocked pantry.

But the reality is, I found a can of beans the other day that expired this year.

And I have to imagine that I bought that can of beans 10 years ago.

Right.

When you find a can of super beans that has expired, you're like, this is, it's, it's existentially devastating because you're looking at this thing going like, you were supposed to last forever.

You were supposed to be here forever for me.

And now you're an expired can of beans.

So there is such a thing as overdoing it and uh i've been working through the old stock here in maine and it's and getting down to the bare the bare uh cupboard shelves and i gotta tell you that i kind of like it um

so anyway obviously everything in moderation or whatever but as soon as you've got beans expiring you're you're you're hoarding too much and don't get don't get jesse started on beans please Big, fat, juicy beans.

Hey, we're now in September and it's time to go back to school.

What are your back-to-school disputes?

Do you have a case about the Rodney Dangerfield movie Back to School?

Did someone shove you in a locker and now you want revenge?

I'm looking at you, John Lovett.

Are you still bitter that your theater classmates decided to perform The Lion King instead of your pick Bye-bye Birdie?

That was wrong.

Send us your school disputes at maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

And of course, we want every dispute at maximumfund.org slash JJHO, especially if we are coming to you on the road court tour.

That means New York City, Washington, D.C.

That means Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

That means Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Let's see you out there.

And if you have a dispute, maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

I'm just going to mention, John.

Yeah.

We're going to have a very special guest in Washington, D.C., our friend Linda Holmes from NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour, the queen of little weirdsies.

If you've got a little weirdsies dispute, no matter where you are, send it in at maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

And if you're in Washington, D.C., holy cow, please let us know that you're in Washington, D.C., because you never know what might go down on that stage.

You never, ever know.

When a wild card like Linda Holmes is on hand.

That's going to be so much fun.

MaximumFund.org slash events for tickets, maximumfund.org slash JJHO to submit your cases.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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