Clapital Offense

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Clapital Offense.

Michelle brings the case against her sister, Kristen.

Michelle's husband introduced a new tradition to their family's Christmas morning.

Michelle loves it.

Kristen thinks it's silly.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Ronald D.

Moore's reboot of Battlestar Galactica loves this trope to death.

It's out in full force in the miniseries and used again and again, completely unironically in the series itself.

It's actually become a sort of an in-joke when not pulled off successfully, as when Gaius Baltar completely fails to start one in CIC when Commander Adama returns after recovering from his gunshot wounds and heart surgery.

End quote, Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in.

Michelle Michelle and Kristen, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's a real Maynard G.

Krebs and snaps instead of applauding?

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Maynard G.

Krebs.

You're talking about Bob Denver, who went on, who stole the show

from that Dobie Gillis character.

Yep.

The many loves of Dobie Gillis.

Mainer G.

Krebs was the beatnik friend, played by Bob Denver, who would later go on to become Gilligan in Gilligan's Island.

I am old.

But you,

Kristen and Michelle, are young.

Please sit down, if you don't mind, for an immediate summary judgment on one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced when I entered the courtroom.

And

I'll give you a little context, okay?

Please.

I was quoting from, I'll just go ahead and tell you that I was quoting from the wonderful website TV Tropes,

which lists every possible dramatic trope or convention that could ever show up in any television show, movie, play, book, novel, whatever.

And this is referring to a trope that was overused, according to the writer, who is uncredited, by the way.

I couldn't find a credit for the particular contributor to this Wikipedia-like massive website, tvtropes.org.

But this particular trope that I did not name is overused, according to this writer, in Ronald D.

Moore's reboot of Battlestar Galactica.

I got to get in there and correct that because it's co-created by David Icke.

But there we go.

What is the trope that is overused in Battlestar Galactica, Michelle?

What's your guess?

I'm going to say the only TV trope that I can think of, which is Jumping the Shark.

Jumping the Shark is probably the most famous TV trope on tvtropes.org.

Okay, that jumping the shark, of course, for the one person of you who doesn't know, or maybe the little baby who was just born yesterday who listens to this program, Welcome, Baby.

That references the episode of Happy Days.

Boy, some real old timey references.

When, when Arthur, the Fons Fonzarelli, water skis over a great white shark in the post-Jaws era of popular culture when great white sharks were everywhere and they thought, let's get people to watch this.

And he walked, and he jumped over a shark and that was considered to be the moment in which Happy Days went from being a sublime, perfect cultural product, I suppose, into sort of a piece of trash.

I'm not sure I agree, but there you go.

That's what that means.

All right, Kristen,

what's your guess?

Originally, I was going to say TV tropes is my guess because I was like, oh, that's a lock.

But

I wish I knew more.

I mean, you were going to guess TV tropes before I said books from TV tropes?

I was.

I just want to know.

Yes, I love TV tropes.

I could spend all day on that website, unfortunately.

It's sort of like

walking through the strand bookstore.

Yes.

If you're, if you're a writer of any kind, it's a reminder that everyone has been where you are before 10,000 times and most of them have died without any success.

Every book has been written, every trope has been made, and they're all for sale for cheap at the strand and online at tvtropes.org.

Yeah, all right, let's stop dancing around this.

Kristen, what's your guess?

I can't think of any.

I've been on that website so many times, and I can't think of any tropes at the moment.

All right, boom.

You're not going to guess then.

Here's what I have to say in response to your guessing or would have guessing the case may be tvtropes.org.

You want to hear what I have to say about that?

Yes, please.

A slow clap.

Slow Slow clap was the trope I was looking for.

Slow clap.

The slow clap, a trope used in many, many TVs and TV shows and movies, both sincerely and now at this point, mostly ironically, including according to tvtropes.org, an episode of the great crazy ex-girlfriend where a slow clap moment, people started singing slow clap, slow clap, slow clap.

They sure did.

I love that show.

And we are talking about applause.

We are talking about clapping at Christmas presents.

Which of you seeks justice in my court?

I do, Your Honor.

And Michelle, what is the nature of the justice you seek?

We have a Christmas tradition where we open presents one at a time in our family.

And when my now husband, Patrick, first joined and was participating in this Christmas tradition, he

felt like he needed to add a little something to it and add to that tradition as now being part of the family.

And so he started to applaud each present that was open.

And everyone in the family loves this except for one person.

And that would be your sister Kristen.

Yes.

Kristen, do you hate joy?

I don't hate joy.

No.

But you hate applause.

I don't hate it.

I wish it happened less, but I don't hate it.

How long has this been going on, Kristen?

How many years would you say?

Since 2020.

So three, three years.

Right.

And it says here that you both are from and currently live in Las Vegas, Nevada.

Yes, that's true.

So wouldn't the applause distract people who are at the buffet during your Christmas?

We can't do buffets, so we're at home.

The idea of celebrating a winter holiday in Nevada is hilarious to me, but I guess it gets cold there, right?

What does it get like?

How cold does it get at night now?

I mean,

I'm cold today.

My cold's probably different from your cold, but about 30 degrees Fahrenheit.

Yeah, you know what?

It's a lot colder than it is today in New York City in the past couple of days.

I guess everything's upside down now.

So there you go.

So I want to go back to you, Michelle, for one second, because you mentioned that Patrick, your husband, who is now your husband,

has joined your family.

And you started by saying, in our family, we open presents one by one.

compared to what Patrick's family, where that would just be a mad dash, everyone just scramble and open them all at the same time?

Compared to chaos is what it is, because

in other families, including extended family, people will pass out these presents and you have a pile of presents that have your name on them.

And it just is chaos where you're just opening presents and parents are like, what's happening?

What's going on?

This is speaking from personal experience.

Well, personal experience with Patrick's family of barbarians.

No, no, no.

Let's not throw them under the bus.

It's been from like going to extended families' houses, and I'm overexaggerating just a little bit, to be fair.

But it is hard to see what each person is getting when everybody opens at the same time.

How many children, how many straight-up children are in your family?

There's three of us.

But I'm talking about kids, little kids.

Oh, no.

Currently.

Zero now.

Jesse Thorne, let me ask you a question.

Sure.

Which do you think is more typical?

Because I don't know.

Opening presents in a mad dash all at once or taking time and each person opening them and everyone going ooh and ah?

I think that with children present,

a mad dash is probably more common.

That's all you can do.

Simply because it's so difficult to restrain children from opening gifts.

Right.

But I do think that there are those who do,

including my wife's family and now, for that reason, my family.

Yeah.

But on the other hand, a central part of that in my family is that my children know what they're getting.

Right.

Right.

No, I understand.

And obviously circumstances are different.

Did Patrick have a lot of brothers and sisters?

No, he has the same amount as me.

We both have three in our family.

So, so you and Kristen are sisters, and there's one sister who is not represented here.

We have a brother who lives in the brother who's also known as the Holy Ghost.

It's the Trinity.

We don't really know where he is or what he's doing exactly.

Yeah, he's in Canada, East Coast Canada.

So, East Coast Canada.

All right.

Where?

Halifax?

Moncton.

Moncton, New Brunswick?

Yeah.

Wow.

I've been there.

Wow.

He moved as far away as possible from us.

He could have kept going to Prince Edward Island.

True.

Tell him to cross that bridge.

Nothing against New Brunswick.

PEI, though, is pretty special.

All right.

I can't think about the Maritime Provinces right now.

So Patrick grew up with two other siblings.

Yes.

So would you guess that the mad dashed open presence all at the same time kind of stems from his upbringing?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And do they still do that in their family now?

Yes, they do.

I have have five nieces and nephews from that side of the family.

And when we go to hand out presents, it's, oh, you're opening.

Oh, you're opening.

It's all happening at the same time.

And now as the gift giver, I can't see the reaction, which is what I want.

I want to see their excitement as they open up these presents.

The reaction is the transaction.

Yeah.

You want to get that very, you want to get that very special light in their eyes that they see what Auntie Michelle gave them

just and suck their life force into you and sustain yourself that way.

For another year.

Just one more year.

And the nieces and nephews are little though, right?

Littles?

Yeah.

What are we talking about?

The oldest is seven

and six and then three, two, and a baby.

All right.

Before we get into this whole issue of applause at Christmas,

I'm going to bring out my big gavel.

I'm going to do a preliminary ruling.

This is very unusual, Kristen Michelle.

No one on the podcast can see this, but this is the big gavel that Matt Howie gave me years and years ago at Max FunCon.

And here it comes.

I'm going to drop this gavel.

Ready?

Here it comes.

Big gavel drop.

You know what that indicates?

Patrick's family's doing it wrong.

Tell your husband his family's doing it wrong.

I understand with little kids, it's hard for them to...

not get excited and just freaking go in there and tear it apart.

And that's okay if you're their mom and dad, but if you're their auntie Michelle, they have to open it and they have to give you their life force.

And certainly in terms of adults, I mean, are Patrick's parents in the picture?

His mom, yes.

So his mom, as her grandchildren are ravaging their presents

like

ants upon a carcass,

is she doing the same thing with her presents?

No, she usually waits till the end.

Right.

It's hard to get kids to slow down at Christmas, but you do have to find ways to do it, I think.

Because ultimately, you want to make it last longer if you celebrate Christmas or any gift giving, I suppose.

Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor.

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All right, let's get back to your messed up family.

Your messed up immediately, family.

Kristen,

tell me what present opening was like Christmas in Las Vegas style before

the applause started.

Very quiet and reverent.

No,

we all usually sit around the living room where our

big tree is.

We call it the main tree.

We usually have more than one.

And we

pick somebody to be the gift giver outer.

And

we, I think, usually go like clockwise.

I'm trying to listen, but I need to get back to how many trees you have.

It depends on the year.

We don't always put all of them up.

But

this is my parents.

My mom started this tradition.

In my mom's house, we have anywhere from,

depending on, again, on how many we put out anywhere from like three to seven three to seven las vegas jesse show world usa you know

yeah

um and are these artificial trees yes they are this is what it's like at siegfried and roy's house yeah

rip siegfried or roy

what different colors are they we have a lot of different ornaments

um so they all get like split up into different boxes we have the main tree which has like ornaments from when we were kids or just like general ornaments.

And then we also have,

yeah.

And then we have

what we call like the toy tree, which has ornaments that we made when we were kids or like frankly stuff from like fast food restaurants.

What's the what's the size of the largest?

What's the size of the smallest?

The largest is, I think, your usual set.

35 foot.

Okay.

Yeah.

Seven foot.

Seven foot tree is a big tree.

And it's like one of those full ones.

We have some that are six foot, but they're skinny.

They're all different.

Are any of them, are they all green or any of them silver or gold?

Okay, they're all green.

We're not a silver or gold family.

We're not a multicolored lights family.

We're just a bunch of different ornaments family.

You just need extra trees.

Yes.

And where do they all go in the house?

Various places.

Kitchen.

There is one in the kitchen.

Kitchen tree, living room tree, conversation pit tree.

Well, there's one that goes in my parents' bedroom.

Bedroom tree?

Whoa.

I, ooh, Christmas in Las Vegas is sexy.

And did, were you about to say a Disney tree?

We do have a Disney tree.

Yeah, I thought I heard that coming.

Yeah.

All right.

So there's legacy tree.

There's kids' ornaments tree.

There's bedroom tree.

This is so much Christmassy overcompensation from people living in the desert.

I love it.

Our mom is a big Christmas person.

So that's.

Oh, do you think so?

Yeah.

Interesting.

Thank you for that explanation.

Sure.

Didn't realize.

I thought maybe she wasn't into it.

Now I understand.

Now I get it.

Before you drop this seven-tree bomb on me, you were telling me about how it was like pre-applause, pre-plause as we call it.

Yes.

Yeah, we all sit around the main tree.

We pick somebody to give out the gifts.

We sit or we pass them out and then we go clockwise around the family and open gifts one at a time.

In complete silence, like it's a Quaker meeting.

Usually we have like music playing in the background.

Now that we're all older, we don't feel like we have to jump out of bed at 6 a.m.

to get it all done.

So we take our time, you know.

Yes, no, but I'm just saying, did people react to the presence as they were being unwrapped in any way?

Or was that forbidden and that's the way you like it?

We would talk about them.

We would, you know, oh, thank you.

This is cute.

Where'd you get it?

Normal comments.

yeah chit chat standard chit chat

michelle you sent in some evidence some photos exhibit a i'd like to draw jesse's attention to it first are you looking at exhibit a jesse i am so michelle this first exhibit a

this is this is something wrapped in red wrapping paper and did this present receive applause is that why i'm looking at this

Yes, it will receive applause because it's something that is given out every year.

Oh, it's given out every year.

Yeah, this is one of our Christmas traditions that we had pre-applause.

Oh, this is a pre-plause tradition.

Okay, Jesse, can you guess what this is?

You know how television shows have Bibles, which is like the book that contains all the rules of the universe and all the backstory necessary?

Yes.

I think they need a Christmas Bible.

I mean, obviously, there's a lot of Christmas content in the Bible Bible.

In the Bible Bible, right, but they need a Kristen and Michelle family Christmas Bible.

Yeah, it just lists all the things that are quote-unquote traditions,

different types of Christmas tree,

recurring gift.

Okay, this is a recurring gift, but Jesse, can you guess what it is?

You can't shake it next to your ear, unfortunately.

Looking at it, it's remarkably uniform and cylindrical.

Kind of looks like a Christmas cracker.

I would guess that it is perhaps a poster of some kind, an artwork.

What's the answer, Michelle?

These are Pringles.

Now, that's a pre-applause tradition.

Why didn't that get applause right away from the beginning?

How did this tradition start?

Can of Pringles every year?

Yeah, I don't know how it started exactly, but it's always a gift from our grandma.

She would always send specifically sour cream and onion Pringles and wrap them just as they're shown.

And that was always our first present that we would open.

And at one point, we just knew that that was coming.

And so it would be like, I'm going to open my Pringles.

And then you'd have a little snack while you were opening your presents because it's a long process.

You need a little snack while you're

doing it.

When you say send, do you mean like via U.S.

mail?

Yeah.

Yeah.

She lives in northern Nevada.

Well, considering you can't get Pringles in Southern Nevada or wherever Las Vegas is,

It's a real treat.

It's a real regional treat.

It's like my mom gets her sister to send her sour pickles from Virginia.

Sour cream and onion Pringles from northern Nevada.

You can see this beautifully wrapped can of Pringles on our show page at maximumfund.org, as well as in our Instagram account at judgejohnhodgman, as well as two other photos of what look like uh, I don't know, hook rugs or crocheted rugs.

What am I looking at here, Michelle?

So the first one is like a yellow and

gray and white blanket.

That was the first present to ever receive applause in 2020.

It was a crochet blanket that I made for Kristen.

It's supposed to kind of look like a beehive because Kristen really likes bees.

So

it took a long time to make.

Those are called like granny squares or in this case, they're hexagons.

And you have to sew or crochet each one individually and then stitch them all together and then stitch the rows together and then make the border.

So it was a long process and it was something that I really put a lot of thought into and a lot of effort.

And Patrick saw that as I was making it.

So when Kristen opened the present, I was kind of overwhelmed and just excited about her opening it.

So I started to cry and Kristen started to cry and our mom started to cry.

And Patrick, who was not a crier, his response was to applaud.

He started clapping.

And Kristen was like, shut up, shut up, stop it.

Stop applauding.

I think in that moment it was really like a genuine, like, oh my gosh, this is so cool.

And since that's his way of responding to his excitement, that was his natural reaction.

And so at that time, it was like, okay.

It's a beautiful piece of handicraft.

Thank you.

Wouldn't you agree, Kristen?

I 100% agree.

Yes.

Applause worthy, wouldn't you say?

In this case, I would say yes.

What about this other piece of handicraft that I'm looking at here, the purple round one?

Michelle, what am I looking at there?

This is another crocheted blanket.

This one took me six months to make.

I just made it last year.

Right.

And I submitted this one specifically because I think that this is a perfect example of a present that

should receive applause.

And you made this one for Kristen as well?

I did.

Yeah.

She gets a lot of handmade blankets, apparently.

You made this for Kristen or you made this for the applause?

No,

at the time I wasn't thinking about it.

You made it for Christmas Club.

So what started the applause was this genuine emotional moment from Patrick.

And then the applause continued.

Kristen, do you feel that the applause that is now being offered to every present?

cheapens the applause that you received for opening Michelle's original gift.

You know, I don't know that I would have phrased it that way, but now that you've said it, I definitely would agree.

Yes, that genuine moments of excitement are super applause-worthy, but applauding everything does take away some of the impact of the bigger presence.

Are the Pringles applauded or is that saved for more premium potato chips?

Oh, no, the Pringles have been applauded.

Yes.

I mean, I would think a standing ovation at this point.

Kristen, has the applause

grown?

I mean, is there applause creep going on?

Are people feeling like they have to applaud louder and louder and even go to standing ovations or anything like that?

Is it like the Cannes Film Festival?

The Pringles Cannes Film Festival?

All right, that's it.

I retire from the podcast.

Goodbye forever.

I'll wait for the answer to your question before I retire, though.

Sure.

There has been, no, there's no standing ovations, but there has been some creep where it's gotten a little bit more and more dramatic.

It's gone into other aspects of our lives.

It's not just contained at Christmas anymore.

We've applauded for, we've, I think we applauded Thanksgiving dinner this year.

Yeah.

It happens at birthdays sometimes.

It'll happen on the opening of presents.

Yes.

All right.

Well, a lot of it is around food.

I don't know why that's part of the joke now, but we're talking generally at family gatherings.

Yes, I would say so.

It says here bingo nights.

Bingo nights.

Yes.

Our mom really enjoys bingo.

So she has, I don't know what you call it, one of those bingo machines with the numbers inside.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And she puts together what she calls her fabulous prizes.

So if you win bingo,

she gives you a fabulous prize.

And we have applauded the fabulous prizes.

Like, what are some of the fabulous prizes that you get for playing bingo or winning bingo?

Michelle, can you remember one?

Oh, absolutely, because Patrick called it his fabulous prize every time he used it.

One time he won hand lotion and we kept it under our sink and he was like, man, my hands are dry.

I need some fabulous prize lotion.

Wow.

Will your mom adopt me?

Probably.

Sounds fun.

Let me ask you this question.

Your mom has a bingo ball?

Yes.

Why only one?

That's a good question.

And I'm afraid that you're going to put ideas into her head.

I mean, I don't remember my Emily post that well.

But Jesse, you'll remember, right?

Isn't the rule of thumb one bingo ball per Christmas tree?

I'm trying to remember.

I think it's different depending on who you consult.

But in England, I think they do two per Christmas tree, but they have a lot more household staff.

Yeah.

When do you do bingo?

We've done it on birthdays before.

It'll come out at Christmas.

Something else to do in the evening.

Just for fun sometimes.

Yeah.

Fun and fabulous prizes.

This all sounds like fun, Kristen.

Even you just use the word fun.

What do you say when the applause happens, Kristen?

You know what?

I'm going to ask Michelle.

Michelle, what does Kristen say?

I'll tell you, Judge, because she didn't even know when I brought this up to her.

She was like, oh, I don't really do anything.

I said, no.

You do do something because she will

like groan and moan and say like, oh, the clapping again.

Oh, we really got to clap again.

She's like rolling her eyes across the couch.

She is like visibly annoyed by the clapping and she didn't realize that she was annoyed by it until I pointed it out to her.

Did you not realize you were annoyed by it or did you not realize, Kristen, that you audibly said things to kill the mood?

I would say the latter, yes.

You didn't, you didn't know you were killing the mood.

I was not aware I was killing the mood.

Do you resent the fact that some outsider in the form of Patrick has come into your family and introduced a contagion called applause that has taken over all of your family traditions?

I wouldn't say I resent it.

I do recognize it as a new part of our family tradition.

I actually,

Michelle and Patrick just got married in October.

Congratulations.

I was Michelle's maid of honor, and I brought it up.

Congratulations to you as well.

Thank you.

I appreciate that recognition.

Hold for applause.

Good job.

I brought it up in my Maid of Honor speech as part of some of the things that

Patrick has brought into this family, including a lot of love for my sister, which I genuinely appreciate.

Okay, but you want it to stop.

I don't want it to stop.

I either think that I should be allowed to continue to politely make fun of it or that it would happen less.

So like every other present or never at at bingo or where would you,

where would you start with the applause mitigation?

I would start with reserving the applause for big moments, big presents.

Michelle brought up the blankets as an example of something that she worked very hard on that is worthy of applause.

And I would agree.

I love those blankets very much.

They are a tangible representation of how much my sister loves me and that means a great deal to me.

Can you give me a specific example?

And you can take a moment to think about it.

And I'm going to ask you to.

I want you to think of a moment where a present was applauded that didn't deserve it.

Think over that while I talk to Michelle for a second.

Hi, Michelle.

It's me, Judge John Odgman.

How do you feel when Kristen rolls her eyes and goes, ugh, clapping again?

I just don't think it's fair to everyone who's having a good time with the applause.

And I don't think Patrick would ever admit it, but I feel like it would not be fair to him who started the applause and who is usually the conductor, if you will, of the applause.

And I feel like if it happened frequently enough,

especially now that we've been on this podcast and he knows that this is a serious topic, I think that he would kind of get his feelings hurt about it.

You say you're concerned that it might hurt his feelings.

Yeah, and he would never say it.

Like, I would have to be the one who kind of.

he only communicates through hand claps right that's my understanding absolutely that's how he shows his excitement and his love as a new person in the family he might feel like a little bit like i'm not accepted because kristen is and is that true is kristen not accepting of patrick no that's not true at all and i think she did a really good job in her speech of of explaining how much she enjoys having Patrick.

And she tells me all the time how much she enjoys having Patrick as a new brother.

And do you know that this hurts Patrick's feelings, or are you just concerned that it might?

No, we've had a conversation about it.

Oh, and what did he say in this conversation?

Translate from his clap language, if you yeah, in preparation of coming here, he was genuinely concerned that he was not going to be able to applaud anymore because he was like, this is what I do.

This is how I show my excitement.

And he was genuinely, I texted Kristen about it because I was like, Patrick is really worried that the judge is going to say he cannot applaud anymore and he went to bed that night very upset and you mentioned that he's the conductor of the applause that's the term you use yeah he started it obviously but as it goes on kristen would you agree that he conducts the applause because that sounds a little annoying

It's either him or it's our dad.

Those are the two people who

they certainly are.

And by conduct, you mean start the applause.

Yeah.

And do they bring in different members of the orchestra, as it were, like make eye contact and encourage like a little bit more over here, the left side of the room, you over there by the ninth tree.

We need a little bit more.

They will.

They will.

They'll like put their hands out and

point.

If mom's not clapping enough, they'll...

They'll reach their arms out and clap.

And when my brother and his wife, Becca, came down to visit visit last Christmas, we had to tell them, hey, by the way, you guys, this is part of the tradition now.

And so he had to kind of teach them, hey, this is when you need to clap.

What did your brother think of this new tradition?

They love it.

And I want to make that clearly known because he texted me privately before this to let me know that he and his wife both really enjoy the clapping.

I think that's really important to know.

It seems like in all of Kristen's efforts to ostracize Patrick, it's now Kristen who is ostracized, the one lone non-clapper.

Kristen, would you say that Patrick and your father are what they call thick as thieves when it comes to clapping?

Oh, yes.

Dad loves it.

My dad is a bits dad, where he will pick up a joke and then subsequently drive it into the ground as much as possible.

You can just say dad.

He's dad.

Yeah.

You present him with the opportunity to take something and run with it.

He'll do it.

So the clapping is, he loves it.

And how does this make you feel?

A little annoyed, I'll admit.

I love my dad very much.

He has a great sense of humor.

He gave us huge chunks of our sense of humor.

But when I say drive it into the ground, I mean drive it into the ground.

So

after a while, it starts to get a little frustrating.

So, Michelle, if I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me rule?

I would want that Kristen is not allowed to audibly or visually groan or roll her eyes or show that she's annoyed in any way.

She needs to embrace the clapping as part of the new tradition.

Kristen, I asked you some time ago if you could come up with a specific example of a specific gift that was applauded and did not deserve that applause.

Were you able to come up with something?

There is definitely, that's part of why we submitted the Pringles,

is because that is an example of something that.

Pringles always get applause.

Okay.

Perfect.

Do you have another example?

That's for grand.

That applause is for grandma.

That's true.

And it's richly deserved.

Is there another gift that got applause that you think didn't deserve it?

The thing is that because

we are at a point where all of the gifts are getting applause, it's not to say that certain gifts are worse than other gifts.

All gifts are gifts, and that's something I appreciate.

Someone taking the time and,

you know, buying something, wrapping something, or making something.

All of that is, you know genuinely appreciated it is it is all gifts so that includes things like socks it includes things like

what else uh

i mean all of it dvds um

blue red

2023 dvds that's an incredible gift um it really is just all of it at this point every single present so would it be your argument that the applause ironically has now come to cheapen the

appreciation of the presents rather than enhance it?

I think it takes away from genuinely appreciating the gifts because I'm no longer thinking about the nice present that I've opened from someone I love.

Now I'm thinking about how silly the applause is.

You're shaking your head.

No, Michelle.

Why?

I don't think it's fair.

Where do you draw the line?

If I go out and I really put a, put some thought into buying you some leggings at the store that I know that you're going to use and you're going to need them, then how is it fair that that present doesn't get applause, but the big one, quote unquote, gets applause.

That's, I don't think that's very fair.

The presents could feel bad, Judge Hodgman.

I mean, I do think that there is an issue here of how you would determine a deserving present, Kristen.

Is it money spent?

Is it time spent in making it?

Sometimes it's just feel, you know?

Do you have an

metrics by which we could turn down the applause track?

I do think it is more of a feeling than it is something that could go in the Christmas Bible.

I feel like it's

more emotional than it is.

But what if Patrick's feeling is that every present deserves applause?

What if that's his feeling and he really genuinely wants to applaud?

Then I think maybe Patrick needs some therapy.

Or I don't know.

Like if Patrick feels so strongly about this that he's going to hold this whole family hostage, to which he has just joined within less than a year

to his obsessive need for there be applause for every present,

that seems to me like a Patrick problem, not a your family problem.

But let me understand this.

Patrick initially started applauding because it was hard for him to tolerate the silence in between the opening of presents because he was used to a more chaotic experience in his family.

Do I understand that correctly?

I think so.

I think it was kind of a little bit awkward that first year to like sit there.

I think that year, it took us about four hours to get through everything.

And so he's experiencing this for the first time and sitting there.

And then we all are very emotional and he is not quite as visual with his emotions and so when we started to cry what do you do in that situation as a then boyfriend every good partner knows when your partner cries you applaud right

i do that's my thing though is i think that i appreciate the genuineness of feeling motivated to applaud.

I do think it was born more out of awkwardness and

the desire to kind of

undercut what I've been calling our weepy Christmas with maybe something that lightened the mood a little bit rather than this is actually not that he didn't appreciate your hard work.

I'm sure he did.

But I do think it was more of

an awkwardness mitigator.

Where is Patrick from?

He likes to say he's from Boston, but he only lived there for about five years and then he moved here.

So he grew up in Las Vegas or?

Yes, he did.

Right.

Okay.

So you can't really pin the Northeastern emotional reticence badge on him because he didn't grow up in it, where you would cover up all emotion with sarcastic applause and insults.

He would try to claim that.

Oh, absolutely.

That would be

stolen New England valor, though.

Michelle, I want to go back to something you said a minute ago.

You said it took four hours to open presents.

Why was it taking so long?

We don't have a limit to what we buy each other.

And as as we've gotten older and have earned our own money, we just kind of go overboard with the amount of things that we give each other.

There are a lot of trees to put presents under.

Yeah.

So as like as we're going through and going one by one by one, it can take a while to get through all of the presents.

Kristen, do you think that the clapping has made it go longer than it used to or has it sped things up?

Oh, no, it makes things go longer than it used to for sure.

Michelle, do you agree?

No.

Have you done any?

Have you timed it?

We haven't, no.

So, okay.

I think that the clapping takes just as long as the

chit-chat afterward.

The clapping takes as long as the crying.

I'd say clapping was shorter.

So, Michelle, one final question.

At this point, you know that the clapping annoys Kristen.

Are Are you clapping to annoy her or simply to overpower her feelings?

No,

I don't try to do anything to annoy my sister.

She's one of my best friends.

So I think I would more say that I'm clapping to be part of the group that is clapping and kind of support that.

But I also genuinely, this is why I brought this case because I genuinely believe that every present,

the tall and the small,

like deserves to have applause.

I think it's a great tradition that has been brought in.

And I genuinely think that it's a part of our Christmas Bible.

How many tall presents are we talking about here?

Are you giving each other more Christmas trees?

That was me quoting the Grinch.

Oh.

That was my

obscure cultural reference.

Well, you won.

You won that round.

To that, I must say, well done.

Well played.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go into my chambers and I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Michelle, how are you feeling about your chances?

I feel great.

Why is that?

As we have been talking about this case, as it's come up in our family conversations, every time we bring it up, Kristen has said,

I think Michelle's going to win.

Because I just feel like I genuinely have this care in my heart about this tradition.

And I think it's super important.

And I feel like the evidence that we brought, even Kristen, the evidence that she brought shows that this is an important part of our family.

How do you feel, Kristen?

I mean, she's not wrong.

I've been saying from the start that I think she is a really good case.

She's funny.

Every time we bring it up in the family, people are like, oh yeah, the clapping.

When I bring it up amongst my friends, they're like, oh, the clapping.

So I'm pretty divided.

She's my younger sister.

Whatever makes her happy makes me happy.

I think she's going to win.

Have you two thought about asking all the Christmas trees what they think?

There's seven of them.

So if they vote, you'll have a winner.

That's a good point.

No, we really haven't.

We haven't thought about that at all.

We've been excluding the Christmas trees, and that's pretty unfair of us.

We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

Judge Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from our case.

We're headed to San Francisco for SF Sketch Fest.

Yeah, we're returning to the San Francisco Sketch Fest.

That much is true, January 27th, 4 p.m.

But this year, we are performing in a place where we have never performed as Judge John Hodgman before.

The Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco.

Jesse Thorne, have you checked out this Palace of Fine Arts?

You're an SF native.

John, I've been to the Palace of Fine Arts many times, not only to see the wonderful New Year's Eve comedy shows that the folks at the Punchline in San Francisco often put together that are often like, you know, four or five of my favorites,

but also as a child, many times, to see the Spike and Mike Festival of Animation.

But I'm going to say...

without qualification that this is the first venue we have ever played that has an on-site lagoon.

Yeah, it's true.

The Palace of Fine Arts was constructed in 1915 as part of the Panama Pacific Exhibition.

It's the only structure from that grand exhibition left.

It was devoted to the fine arts then.

It is devoted to the fine arts now.

And it's this beautiful temple at the shore of a person-made lagoon designed by Bernard Maybeck.

And do you know what I learned about Bernard Maybeck?

What's that?

Not only did he design this palace, but there was a thing that he designed, a lumberman's lodge that he designed for the Panama Pacific exhibition.

It no longer exists, but you know what it was called?

What?

It was a rustic lumberman's lodge that he called the house of hoohoo.

Anyway, I want to know who is coming to our show.

All of you, I trust.

Palace of Fine Arts, San Francisco, January 27th, 4 p.m.

That's 2024.

And you can get your tickets at bit.ly slash jjho sf24.

That's all capital letters, JJ H O S F 24,

or just google sfsketchfest.com.

You know how to get it.

Maybe you want to check out the Flop House, too, on the Friday night before ours.

We're on Saturday.

Flop House is Friday.

What could be more fun?

Also, we need your cases.

Submit your Bay Area cases to maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

If you're going to join us in the House of Woohoo of Our Mind that we're going to reconstruct in the Palace of Fine Arts, we need your disputes.

Go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO and let us know that you're going to be there woo-hooing it up with us at Sketchfest in January.

And of course, if you want to know any more about Bernard Maybeck, you wouldn't be wrong to go to hodgman.substack.com.

But truly, my call to action to you right now, aside from hodgman.substack.com, go to sfsketchfest.com.

Go to Bing or Google or whatever search engine you use.

Search Judge John Hodgman SF Sketchfest.

Go to bit.ly slash JJ H O S F 24

and join us, won't you, at our return to San Francisco Sketchfest in January.

Also, if you are in Los Angeles, we are having in-person put this on sale on the 23rd at a place called Alter, new art space called Alter on Figueroa Boulevard, 3404 North Figueroa in Cypress Park, just a couple blocks up from Cypress and Figueroa, sort of just south of Highland Park on Figueroa.

We're going to be there Saturday the 23rd, 10 to 4.

Bryna, our shop master, is going to be there.

I'm going to be there part of the time.

We're going to have lots of cool stuff there, last-minute stuff for you, where your giftees or whomever.

All the information on our Instagram at put this on.

Put.this.on.

Shall we get back to the case?

Indeed.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So, Kristen, I really feel for you because

it's hard to be the Grinch.

You know what I mean?

While all the Who's of Whoville,

because I know what you, I know the Grinch.

I know the Grinch pretty good, Michelle.

Well, all the who's of Whoville are down there in their little town partying and clapping and having fun, including Jonathan Colton's sister who was in the movie, The Grinch.

She played a who.

They're all having fun down there.

And Kristen, you're on top of the cold frozen mountain looking down, going, they're doing it wrong again.

And not only that, but they used to do it right.

It used to be everyone celebrated Christmas around the seven trees of cold frozen mountain.

And then all of a sudden,

this Sussian gnome named Patrick.

showed up in your lives and changed the family dynamic forever.

And just when you thought, just when you thought you might might have some relief from your own brother out there in New Brunswick coming down, going, uh, no, we're not going to be clapping every gift.

Thanks very much.

Sorry, Patrick.

He's like,

excuse émoi jouleme.

I love it.

New Brunswick is a fair, is a fairly bilingual province.

Yes.

I don't know if your brother speaks French, but you know what I'm saying.

His wife does.

Yeah, see?

Ah.

So, you know, now you're completely isolated.

And not only that, Kristen, I feel for you because

you're absolutely correct

that some presents are more deserving of applause than others.

Some of them, like those wonderful blankets that your sister gave you, deserve everything.

And in a different way,

So do the, so does a can of Pringles wrapped up deserve applause because that's wonderful as a tradition.

Our old friend Amy Radford, her dad, Deacon Radford, talk about dads and bits.

Every year, Deacon Radford would fill her and her brother's stockings with cans of tuna fish wrapped up, packs of gum wrapped up,

nine packs of Bic pens wrapped up.

I mean, just

whatever was available at CVS

was what he would put in there.

And it was a joke, but it was a wonderful joke that expressed a kind of affection.

And some presents deserve that.

But when all presents are getting applause,

I can feel how it might start to feel a little bit awkward.

Let me put it this way: when some presents are getting applause and other presents aren't getting applause, it starts to feel as awkward as an immemorium segment at the Oscars.

You know, like,

if no one, if it's all getting applause, it feels a little cheap.

And if some of it's getting applause,

it's starting to feel like, well, now some people are going to be feeling bad.

And if no one gets applause, then Patrick feels bad.

I feel for you, Kristen, but I don't know how to roll this tradition back now that you've been steamrolled by this tradition.

It's not for you.

I get it.

It's not fair.

And

I bristle when Michelle says it's not fair to Patrick.

Because Patrick, who the hell is Patrick?

He's not your sister.

This guy doesn't even know where he's from.

Thinking he's from Boston when he lived there for five years.

Patrick has no worries about not being adopted into this family because Patrick's father-in-law loves this bit.

And your mom has seven trees.

By the way, I have to make a quick order.

If you determine that they have seven trees in your home, you got to get five more.

12 trees, one for each day of Christmas.

That's the way it goes.

Oh, boy.

Five more.

That's for its preliminary ruling.

Second ruling is this.

I am in every way emotionally with you, Kristen, but I don't know how to take this back.

And it is almost impossible really to determine

whether applause is deserved or not, because who knows how a gift might hit someone and make them feel.

And if if there's not applause for it, they might feel bad or for the giver, for that matter.

You know, what if Michelle gives something?

And

because you have put in a rule in effect that if it's larger than a bread box or it's the every third one or whatever, that there's no applause there, that feels bad.

I don't know how to do that.

But there is one thing that is very clear to tell, I think.

And that is when applause is insincere.

There's real applause and there's joke applause.

And it's on a continuum.

And there, and I think maybe what you're reacting to to some degree is your dad and Patrick ginning each other up into joke applause areas where it's actually taking attention away from the gift, the giver, and the recipient in a way that is inappropriate.

And of course, there is only one counter to any kind of applause.

And that is tomatoes.

Oh, no.

Kristen, you need to get, I don't know where you're going going to source these.

I don't want you to get real rotten tomatoes.

Oh, you know what?

They have those tomatoes that they use in crafting, right?

Michelle, you know what I'm talking about.

Would you put your little pins in?

Absolutely.

A pin cushion shaped like a tomato.

Kristen, you get a bag full of those.

And anytime you feel like the applause is clearly out of bounds

or going on too long or taking attention away, you throw one each at your dad and at your brother-in-law.

I know it might seem a little fun to you, Kristen, and I know that's hard, but just remember: you're throwing a tomato at someone.

And maybe, maybe that will retrain them a little bit.

Or maybe it'll just be a different kind of fun, a different kind of fun family tradition that only you get to enjoy for once.

This is the big gavel again, and this is the sound of it.

Judge John Hodgman rules: that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Michelle, how do you feel?

I think that's a really fair judgment.

I am really happy with that.

I'm happy that the tradition gets to stand.

I'm happy that it's going to introduce a new tradition.

And it also gave me an idea for a Christmas present.

So I'm excited.

Kristen, are you glad that your family finally has a new Christmas tradition?

Oh, yeah, we were really low on those.

We were lacking tradition for sure.

But

this is fun.

Throwing things at people is always fun.

And throwing things at people without causing any damage, delightful.

So I'm into it.

Chris and Michelle, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books.

We'll have Swift Justice in just a second.

First, our thanks to Redditor Louise in Maine for naming this week's episode Clapital Offense.

If you want want to chat about this week's episode, you can do it at maximumfund.reddit.com.

That's also where we ask for the goofy puns that make up the titles of episodes.

I don't think we need to be redundant.

Just say puns.

Evidence and photos from this show are on the website, maximumfund.org on the episode post, and of course on Instagram at JudgeJohn Hodgman.

Make sure to follow us.

Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman.

This episode, engineered by Cesar Molina at Cave Rec Studio in Las Vegas, Marie Bardi Salinas runs our social media.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment, vodka barf on the maximum fun sum reddit says.

When I order in, I get more chopsticks than I need.

I want to have emergency chopsticks at all times.

Is this stealing?

Well, thank you for writing in, Vodka Barf.

Before we get to Vodka's question, Jesse, I just need to say

we don't need to do a show in Las Vegas.

I'm telling you right now.

Why is that?

Because we need to do a residency in Las Vegas.

Oh, yeah.

You know what I'm talking about?

Nine months.

Nine months at the sands.

Every night.

Nine years.

Let's do this.

And night after night.

I think I know just the rundown hotel.

I think the El Cortez.

I think we could do it at the El Cortez.

Let's just put it that way.

Be pretty grim.

A lot of fun.

Now let's get back to what's the writer's name again?

What's the Redditor's name on this one again?

Vodka Barf.

Vodka Barf.

When I order in, I get more chopsticks than I need.

Look, I feel your need for emergency chopsticks.

We have run out of chopsticks in our chopstick drawer, and we need more of them.

And I don't know why we can't just get more because we can.

And so can you, Vodka Barf.

You can go, as I did once, you can go to a website and order 120 pairs of chopsticks, those round ones that come in the individual red sleeves that I like so much.

120, and these are good ones.

These are Royal Palillos,

and probably for Ron Palillo, Horshak of Welcome Back Cotter, UV treated, UV treated, premium disposable bamboo chopsticks, 10 bucks for 120 of them.

Just go and do that.

Then you'll have all the chopsticks you ever need for a long

But is it stealing to say, please send extra chopsticks to the place that's delivering to you?

Or is it stealing to take extras when you're leaving?

No, it's fine.

Don't worry about it.

But why not get 120 Ron Palillo-style UV-treated chopsticks for 10 bucks or anywhere you can get a deal?

Go and get them.

You don't ever want to be chopstick poor.

In this, we agree, Vodka Barf.

Hey, we are nearing the end of this calendar year,

but winter is going strong, at least in in Las Vegas, apparently.

Not in New York City, but it's cold in Las Vegas.

What are your wintertime disputes?

Did you crochet a large warm blanket for your sister and did she refuse to clap for it?

Do you and someone else in your home have an ongoing battle over the thermostat?

Very, very common battle.

Are you a snuggy person or a slankety?

That's a slanket person, a slankity.

Snuggy or slankety?

Or do you live in a place where wintertime is really warm and you wish it weren't?

And you're like,

how many fake trees do I fill up this house with in order to make it feel like winter?

Give us those cozy wintertime disputes.

Send them all in at maximumfund.org slash JJ H O.

And of course, we love hearing about any dispute.

So whatever problem you have with someone else in your life, we'll fix it for you.

Just go to maximumfund.org slash JJ H.O.

There's an easy little form there.

Fill it out.

Send it in.

We'll solve it.

That's my promise to you.

We'll fix everything.

Doesn't matter what.

We'll fix it.

Send it in.

Maximumfun.org slash JJHO.

Not only will we solve it, but check out the hook as our DJ revolves it.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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