Hampering With the Evidence

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Hampering with the Evidence.

Catherine brings the case against her husband, Andy.

When they go on short trips to visit her dad, Catherine would like to pack her clothes in a laundry basket.

Andy is opposed.

He says it's just not practical.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

They kept us hidden.

We were the big family secret.

Everybody hated us except our aunt.

You see, he likes the dark.

He doesn't like to be seen.

Not even by me sometimes.

And you know what else?

He talks to me without words.

I just hear him whispering in my brain.

Sometimes he talks for hours and hours and won't shut up.

He calls it the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear in the litigants.

Catherine and Andy, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

Yes.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that when he visits the laundromat, he carries his laundry and one of the legendary wire sculptures of mid-20th century Japanese American artist Ruth Osawa?

Yes.

I don't know what the premise of that was.

I just have been thinking a lot about the work of Ruth Osawa lately, John.

They're great for my undies.

Yeah.

Oh, wait a minute.

They're not a podcast sponsor, are they?

They're great for my non-brand underwears.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Catherine and Andy, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favorites.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

Everything that I said was a direct quote from a piece of culture, except for the part where I said he calls it the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

That was obviously

my

imitation of a joke.

Catherine, do you have a guess?

God, it sounded like

some kind of children's literature.

Around the World in 80 Days.

Okay.

Interesting.

Around the World in 80 Days.

Hmm.

Okay.

A classic of big children's literature and a classic of Conteen Floss literature.

What's that?

Conteen Floss was in the Clown Prince of Mexico.

He was in Around the World in 80 Days.

Thank you very much, Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Conteen Floss.

All right.

You know why I like your guests, Catherine?

You do?

Yeah, I do like your guess.

You want to know why I like it?

Why?

Well, how do they travel around the world in 80 days?

I think they take like trains and...

Planes and automobiles, but also don't they float around in a balloon?

I've never read it.

I used to think that that was the only way they got around the world, and it's not.

There's definitely

some lighter-than-air travel in that, right?

I would think so.

And when you're in a balloon, in a hot air balloon, what are you floating around in?

A basket.

A basket.

Like a laundry hamper basket.

That's right.

Andy, I think you've got this one.

I think you've got a guess, and I think you're right.

Was that a hint what you just said?

Or no?

Well, I'm just looking at you, and I just got a feeling.

We're the same age, right?

May I ask your age?

I am 50.

Yeah.

When's your birthday?

June 3rd?

October 25.

Oh, okay.

I'm a little bit older than you then.

Okay.

Belated happy birthday.

Thank you.

But you got a beard.

You got a beard and glasses.

Uh-huh.

You're 50 years old.

This puts you in the range.

I basically am you.

Okay.

I'll decide.

Is it, I don't know.

Only a couple things occurred to me.

The Sixth Sense, something like that.

The Sixth Sense.

Okay, I understand why you made that guess.

What's that 90s movie with Dan Aykroyd?

Nothing but trouble.

Do you know this movie?

You can hear me and the Flophouse Boys in the Flophouse talk about that wildly disturbing movie.

It was, yes.

It was quite a surprise when I got it from the video store.

Probably best known as Tupac's on-screen debut.

That's right.

Along with the rest of the digital underground.

Yeah.

No, don't see that movie, everybody.

And nor can I endorse the movie that is the actual answer, because indeed all guesses are wrong.

I can't endorse this movie because I have never seen it.

Though around the lobby at the Coolidge Corner movie house where I worked as a teen, a late teen, this movie came up a lot.

It is a cult horror film from 1982.

You like cult horror movies, Andy?

Eh.

All right.

All right.

See, I didn't read you correctly.

Is it Basket Case?

It was basket case, yes.

Wow.

See, that's why I was asking if it was a hint.

Well, you should have took it.

Yeah.

Because you guessed those other ones wrong first.

Very, very wrong.

Yeah.

What do you know about basket case, Andy?

Explain to the audience.

It is, yeah.

It's, I've never seen it.

I mean, I've seen like a review video on YouTube sort of summarizing it.

There's a, is it, are they twins separated at birth?

Yeah.

It's a story about a guy named Dwayne who was a conjoined twin, and against his wishes, the conjoined twin was separated from him.

And the conjoined twin's name is Belial.

And the conjoined twin, the twin that is separated from Dwayne,

is a sort of monstrous creature that Dwayne keeps in a basket, a laundry basket under his bed.

And every now and then, someone says, what's in the basket?

And the audience goes, don't ask.

But they do anyway.

It opens it up, and Belial's like claw gets them in the face.

Super cheap movie.

It was made for 35 grand.

The claw is actually a rubber glove worn by the director Frank Hennenlauder.

Cult movie.

Two sequels.

That's all I know about it.

It could be wildly, I mean, it was made in 1982.

It could be wildly problematic in ways that I do not want to touch.

It could be radioactive, as far as I know.

So don't see it, kids.

But yeah, Basket Case was what I was going for there.

But I read you wrong.

You're more of a nothing but trouble guy.

More of a sixth sense fella.

I mean, those are both pretty grotesque movies, from what I understand.

Well, you've never seen either of them?

Oh, I've seen Nothing But Trouble.

Oh, you haven't seen The Sixth Sense?

Oh, I've seen, I saw that in the theater.

Oh, okay.

I was going to say, out of all three movies, the one you saw was Nothing But Trouble.

Uh-huh.

When did you rent it?

Nothing but Trouble?

It would have been like 1992 or something like that.

It must have just come out.

It must have been hot on the shelves of the video store of new releases.

I was on the burning edge of culture at that point.

I'm going to tell you: no matter what you think, no matter how much bad movie you think you can tolerate, nothing but trouble is too much bad movie.

I enjoyed it.

I recall watching it two or three times.

All right.

I think I'm ready to make my decision.

But I guess we ought to hear from Catherine first.

Catherine, you seek justice in this case.

Yes.

What is the justice you seek?

What is the problem?

What is the dispute?

So every time we go see my dad, it's a four-hour car drive.

We stay in a hotel.

We only go for two nights.

I don't want to spend a lot of time like

trying to get out out the door.

So one time I had the great idea, I think, to instead of wasting my time folding all the laundry and putting it in a suitcase, deciding what to bring,

just I had a pile of clean laundry sitting on the bed, just put it in the basket, unfold it, put it in the car, and take it with us.

So you're saying you take the clean laundry, still fresh from the dry room.

It smells good, it's warm to the touch, toss it in the hamper and go.

Yes.

Wow.

I love it.

And then, like, once we get to the hotel and we have nothing to do there and we're just sitting around, then I fold the laundry there.

Do you put it like into the drawers?

Yeah.

Of like the modular wardrobe/slash flat-screen TV.

Yes.

Cabinet that they have.

Yes.

And we live out of the drawers for two days and then pack all of the nice clean clothes back in the laundry basket.

Well, wait a minute.

Wait a minute.

By then they're dirty, aren't they?

Not all of them, because I take a lot of laundry.

Oh, okay.

You take more than you need.

Yes.

Because you don't know.

She takes a whole basket, John.

It's like a lottery.

You don't know what's in that dryer.

We're only going for two days, so it can't be.

We won't miss anything.

Andy, it's going to be very hard for you to mount a defense because you already told me that you like nothing but trouble.

You've seen it more than once.

Uh-huh.

A, and B, I love this.

I love this.

Normally, when we're dealing with

husband and wife heterosexual couples, you are married, correct?

Yes.

Yes.

It's the guy who comes up with a, I know a better way to do it kind of scheme.

Uh-huh.

But Catherine's come up with one.

I got to say, I kind of love it.

Yeah, I'm not above coming up with a I got a better idea scheme, but it just in this case, this solution did not sit right with me.

Well, how come?

Because it made you feel like a fugitive from justice.

No, it feels very impractical.

Like a suitcase is a very practical, useful invention.

It zips up.

You can carry carry it any which way you want.

You can roll it.

You can carry it with the handle.

Things don't fall out of it everywhere.

And the thought of just putting a whole bunch of random laundry into a laundry basket that's open at the top, I just picture it spilling everywhere.

Your clothes are on the ground outside of the hotel.

Well, you're talking about the thought of it.

Has it ever happened, Catherine?

Have you ever done it?

I have.

He doesn't remember, but I have.

Why doesn't he remember?

He saw, he took one look at that laundry hamper as a suitcase and fainted.

Yeah.

Blacked out.

Doesn't remember any of it.

He had a really strong reaction to this idea, which is out of character for him.

Yeah, he seems like a pretty even-keeled sort of person.

And he doesn't care about a formal way to do things either.

What do you mean?

He's not one to stand on ceremony.

He's not a very neat and tidy person.

Hey.

In general.

Just look at him.

I can't tell he wears toe shoes to church.

He's not uptight.

He's easygoing.

It was just surprising.

I was very surprised by his reaction.

So when you did it, how many times have you done it?

Just this one time?

Well, definitely one time when we went to see my dad, and I might have done it once when we went to the beach for like a vacation.

Right.

And the first time you did it, you were going to see your dad.

Now, you live in North Carolina.

Is that correct?

Yes.

Whereabouts?

We live in Durham.

Pretty cool town.

And you own a bar and grill there or something?

Mm-hmm.

I believe you've eaten it at once.

Oh, really?

What's it called?

It's called Gear Street Garden.

Yeah, I've been there.

Yeah.

I went there with the Cook brothers after a show.

Yep, that's right.

Phil Cook and his brother, Other Cook.

It's so weird that his mom named him Other.

I just don't Belial, I think it was.

Yes.

Phil Cook brought his brother in a basket to the backyard of your place.

Yep.

After a show that we did, David Reese was there.

We had a great time.

We had a great meal.

We had a great evening.

Say the name of it again: Gear Street Garden.

Gear Street Garden.

Catherine, did you also want to talk about this place?

No, I was going to say we are big fans of Dicktown.

Thank you very much.

I appreciate that.

And I'm hoping a second season will be out soon.

Well, you know, David Reese and I are working very hard on a secret project, and that's all I can say about that.

We look forward to hearing it.

Hang on.

I got to look up this other cook brother and feel terrible about it.

Brad, duh.

That's some very bold gaslighting.

Worth a try.

Brad, Brad, I'm sorry.

I forgot you.

I always remember you in my heart.

Brad Cook.

I think maybe I blacked it out because that's my father-in-law's first name.

But I love my father-in-law.

I don't know what it was.

Who knows why we remember or forget anything?

Never mind a hamper of clothes.

Yeah.

So where does your dad live, Catherine?

You're going from Durham to where?

Culpeper, Virginia.

Okay.

Four-hour drive.

What kind of car do you drive?

Honda CR-V.

Is it okay to say that?

Yeah, of course it is.

Okay.

We can buzz market Honda if we're going to buzz market Gear Street Garden.

Describe your husband's reaction, Catherine, when you loaded up this hamper for the first time into the CR-V to take to Culpepper.

Well, his reaction was before I loaded it up.

It was in the house, and he was just like, no, you can't do that.

That's not right.

And you did it anyway?

I did it anyway, yeah.

Was it chaos?

No, it worked on the bottom.

Were underwears flying all over the place?

No.

Also, his clothes were not even in the basket.

I'm pretty sure he packed a suitcase for himself.

I did pack a suitcase.

Yeah.

So you were packing Catherine for yourself.

And the two boys.

And two, and the two children that live with you?

Yes.

Right.

And their clothes.

They have so many, you know, if you ever folded a basket of kids' laundry, it takes forever.

I don't do it anymore, but I have done it.

It does take forever because it's little tiny pieces.

Yeah.

By volume, there's more pieces.

Yeah.

And Andy, this happened.

and did anything go wrong?

Did any of your horrible predictions come true?

No, I think my,

I don't really have much memory of it, so I don't think anything particular went wrong.

But that didn't change my opposition to the

action.

Catherine says that you're a slob.

You don't care.

You're low-key.

I think it could be argued that I'm a slob in some ways.

A lot of people are saying that you wear toe shoes to church.

Yeah,

I'm hearing from a lot of people.

Toe shoes at church.

Yeah.

You seem like a low-key guy.

What is it you think?

I mean, now that we established that your fears did not come true, and probably wouldn't except on a very windy day, depending on the top layer of the hamper.

No, there's other circumstances that could lead to it spilling.

Clumsiness, you know, you open the back of the car, maybe something's shifted around.

It's got a hatchback, so you open it, it could tip out.

I have other objections too.

Okay, keep going.

I like all these possibilities.

I think my main objection is that it is very impractical in that you are just wadding up a bunch of random laundry, whatever happened to be in that load of laundry.

You have no assurance in that load that you have the things that you'll actually want or need.

Yeah.

And inevitably, you will have a whole bunch of stuff that you do not need.

I know.

And so to me, it just feels like the sensible thing to do, the practical thing to do, would be to go through it, find the stuff you need, put that into a suitcase and leave everything else there.

I know, but you're going to Culpepper, live a little.

Come on.

If this is what's defined as living a little, I don't want to live, brother.

Well, how old are your boys?

10 and 8.

Yeah, this is living a lot, frankly.

This is the adventure of a lifetime.

An open basket of laundry?

It's just like, who knows?

Who knows?

It's like getting a prize ball or roll the dice.

You know, like a mystery bag at a toy store.

You don't know what's going to be in there.

Okay.

I mean, if that's your view on it, I understand that.

That's not

how I viewed it.

Well, it's none of your clothes anyway.

It's true.

You already packed a suitcase.

I also describe it as smacking of spiritual laziness.

Hold on, hold on.

I'm not done ho-ho-ing.

Oh, okay.

You know what the classic example, John, of spiritual laziness is, right?

No.

It's wearing shoes to church that only have one compartment for your entire foot.

That's right.

If you want to show respect to God or whatever,

you better show them that you have all 10 digits that they gave you.

God is a them.

Or whatever.

Well, listen, I'm sorry.

I didn't realize.

I forgot that

you are an ordained minister of the church of spiritual discipline.

Please tell me why a hamper is spiritual laziness.

Because there's a clear and obvious thing that you should be doing that will make your life easier.

But instead of doing that, you're doing this other thing, which makes everything more complicated and creates work for you once you're on your

Permission to approach the bench.

Oh, yes, I give it to you.

You are the judge.

Thank you, judge.

What could be easier than throwing all the laundry into the hamper?

That's really easy.

Are you asking me?

No, I'm making a rhetorical, I'm posing a rhetorical question.

I have an answer for your rhetorical question.

God, or whatever I ask thee, because God is a thee in this case,

Andy.

I ask thee, God, or whatever, what could be easier than to throw all the laundry into the hamper?

Why, I dare say nothing would be easier, respondeth my God, or whatever to me.

God, or whatever, I ask thee, am I adding work to my journey by traveling with all my clothes in a hamper?

God or whatever asks me, does it it all fall out?

I say,

in this case, no.

Then God or whatever saith unto me, and including thee, now you're a thee, Andy, no, because you are going to fold those clothes one way or the other anyway.

You are not adding work, my child, with 10 digits.

And what's more, my child, I trust you.

You may wear whatever shoe covering you have and care to wear, because I trust you are not hiding that you have mutilated your toes in order to

spite me.

This is the gospel that was given to us onto this day by God or whatever through me, your judge, John Hodgman.

Welcome to church.

Anyway.

John, I think we just found a major new revenue stream, touring church youth groups as the improvised Bible guys.

I love it.

Watch out, VeggieTales.

Jesse and John are coming.

That's right.

I guess, Andy, what I'm trying to say is that I can certainly appreciate why you would say putting the clothes into a hamper would be worldly laziness because a mundane laziness because you're not packing a bag.

You're just, you're not making a selection.

You're grabbing your clothes, dare I say, willy-nilly.

It's a big gamble that you get all the clothes that you want.

And that is laziness of this mortal plane.

But spiritual laziness, I don't think you've defined it for me properly.

I don't think I understand it.

Because that, to me, suggests that it is morally incorrect as opposed to practically incorrect.

I don't think I mean morally incorrect.

I just mean it it

speaks to a deep,

like bone level refusal to do what you ought to in this situation.

I would agree with that.

You would agree with it.

Yeah.

That rather undermines your case, Catherine.

No, I'm not saying I'm wrong, though.

Who likes to pack a bag?

It's it's a rat race.

I think this is like a

spiritual defiance of all that is right in the same way that like Lucifer being kicked out of heaven was a defiance.

You're calling your wife Catherine a lazy devil?

I might be.

Who deserves to burn?

And you say that there's

maybe given her own realm of hellish existence to preside over like Lucifer was.

Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor.

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I have some practical questions, Judge Hodgman.

Yeah, please.

I'm staying on the spiritual realm for this one.

Catherine, is this something that you only want to do when you are traveling to visit your father?

Yes.

Well,

and maybe somewhere like a vacation to the, like I said, the beach where you're going to be there for a while.

You're going to have to do laundry when you're there.

I might consider it in that case.

But no, not if you're on an airplane, obviously, or like,

no, I wouldn't, and I wouldn't do it if we were visiting your family, Andy.

Aha.

That was my question.

Next question.

Andy says, Andy keeps saying, aha, like he's proved something.

He's like, aha, another mode of transportation listed

aha you've forgotten scooters

uh catherine when you visit your dad do you engage in any activities that require particular kinds of clothing such as going swimming going out to dinner going to church uh attending events and so forth no I mean, there's a hotel pool.

We always bring the kids swimsuits, so I throw those in the basket.

But no, my dad, we go out to the same Chinese restaurant every time we see him.

We hang out at his apartment.

There's nothing going on.

And no offense, Culpepper, but it's a very cute town.

But we aren't going out to fancy dinners.

We don't go to church.

We hardly see anybody, but my dad.

You said you're bringing children on these trips?

Yes.

What are you teaching them?

Thank you.

Maybe Auntie could teach them to pack a suitcase.

I have supervised them packing.

When you say you supervise them packing, what do they each open their suitcase and you walk back and forth behind them with a long ruler, watching them as they fold their clothes, making sure that

each shirt is folded to the appropriate inch length or what?

It's not that involved.

I don't even care if stuff is folded.

In fact, my clothes are not always folded, but they go in a bag that you can zip up.

There's the closure to it.

Yes.

You seek closure.

Yes.

And

yeah.

Which is more disturbing to you?

The fact that something might fall out of the basket or the fact that some of the things in the basket may be a mystery?

Which is more.

Yeah.

I think the mysteriness,

no assurance that you have what you're going to need.

Yeah, I got to say, Catherine, when you said that you selected swimsuits.

to make sure that you brought them and you threw them in the hamper as well, you started to lose me there.

Because now I realize

it's not just random.

I was so loving the total wild card basket.

You lost me a little bit there, I have to say.

It's also about saving time

and getting on the road before noon.

I don't want to spend another hour at home folding laundry and packing laundry before we get on the road.

So it's about saving time.

That's what I meant by spiritual laziness, though.

It's like, yes, you save a little bit of time, but what you get in return for that is chaos, unpredictability, and stuff, potential for stuff spilling everywhere.

Yeah, because God or whatever told you to telleth your wife to spend more time doing the laundry and packing properly.

God or whatever doesn't speak so clearly to me.

Andy, you threw in two big ahas

that I was witness to.

And the first aha is very merited because, of course, aha, you would not bring a laundry basket or hamper onto an airplane.

That makes sense to me.

Nor would I advise that you bring one onto a hot air balloon because then you are not only dealing with moving the basket from one conveyance to another, but that is a terrifying basket-in-basket proposition.

The second aha was more interesting to me, though, and I'd like to probe it.

Catherine promised she would never bring a laundry hamper to your family's house.

And you ahaed in a very gratified way.

What is that all about?

I think

to me, it showed that her desire to do this is not strictly a desire to have things be easy and simple, that there's more to it than that.

Because the distances are the same.

To visit my family in Charlotte, North Carolina takes about two hours.

It's

a day or two day trip at most.

It's kind of a simple.

I heard it was four hours to Culpeper, two hours to Charlotte.

Two hours to Charlotte.

Okay.

You think I don't know these roads?

You don't think I don't, I haven't had

the distance between Charlotte and the research triangle of Chapel Hill, Durham, and what's the third part?

Raleigh, drummed into my head by David Reese all this time.

I was banking on Hollywood Elites, not

understanding.

How would you feel if Catherine walked into your father's house with her with her luggage in a laundry hamper?

Embarrassed, frankly.

What do you think it would say?

Yes.

Maybe I'll say that.

What would I say?

I think I would just give my dad a look and roll my eyes like, oh my God, can you believe this?

And how would that make you feel, Catherine?

I mean, I don't care what they think.

How do you feel when you're walking into the hotel you're staying in in Culpeper, the Culpeper Arms or whatever, and Catherine pulls out,

Catherine,

we might as well buzz market them too.

Where do you stay in Culpeper?

I really like this particular hotel.

It's a Holiday Ann Express.

Sure.

We stay in the same one every single time.

Can't go wrong with an HIX.

It's nice.

They have a pool.

Right.

Believe me, I've been there.

They have the pancake machine.

You can definitely go wrong with the HIX.

I have no particular loyalty to Holiday Inn.

I just liked thinking of it as HIX.

How do you feel when Catherine walks into

what passes for a lobby at the Holiday Inn Express to check in to your room carrying a laundry basket full of clothes?

Yeah, still

not as embarrassed, but slightly embarrassed.

I have a hard time believing you're actually embarrassed.

Why?

Why?

He's under fake oath, Catherine.

Did you not appreciate that your husband might be embarrassed by you walking around with a laundry basket full of clothes in public places?

I absolutely do not care if he is embarrassed, but I don't believe that he is embarrassed because you should see his car.

Wait, here.

God, okay, tell me, tell me about his, tell me about his car.

He rolls around town in a car.

It's an old beat-up Volvo.

And I almost,

I love him already.

Let's go.

Yeah, this is getting good.

I like this.

What is it?

A 240?

Tell me it's a 240.

No, I had a 240 until about 1997.

I know.

He trashed the interior.

It's just full of trash, literally.

Also,

he lets it break.

At one point, a 20-quart container of chicken broth spilled in there in July.

That's a lot of quartz.

It was nuts, yes.

And it was, I was was too busy with work stuff to deal with it.

And so it just soaked into the carpet.

And I took it to the detail place.

They were like, no problem.

We'll use enzymes.

The enzymes did nothing.

What they call the classic anti-broth.

Yes.

Didn't do anything, huh?

No.

And so for a couple of years after that...

Anti-broth!

For a couple of years after that, it smelled like a corpse.

Yeah.

I'm digging my own grave here, but I like that you you were too busy with work things, which basically, I think, just means other 20 quart containers.

Indeed, it does.

Yes.

Yeah, but this is your work vehicle, isn't it, Andy?

Allow me to defend you.

No, not always.

It just was that particular weekend.

Oh, okay.

So you were driving your kids around in a chicken corpse car?

Yeah, except everybody refused to get in it for a couple of years.

I don't even think I could.

As much as I love a Volvo 240, either sedan or wagon, I prefer the wagon diesel if possible.

I don't even think I would get into a chicken corpse version of that car.

You get used to it.

I don't want to get used to that.

Perhaps this experience is why I'm worried about open-topped containers spilling.

You understand the difference between, say, a basket of clean laundry and a gallon of scallops, don't you?

Theoretically.

Open gallon of scallops.

Excuse me, Joel, scallops.

I have to say, Catherine, as a person who's always been very uncomfortable with the prospect of having a bellhop carry his bags, not because I think they're going to steal them or break them, just I just feel weird walking next to them while they carry my stuff.

I honestly can't imagine a more thrilling power move than tipping a bellhop to carry your basket of laundry

to your room.

Like, thank you so much.

Here's $5.

Thanks for carrying my

spilling basket.

There are no bell hops at the HIX.

I have one more

reason why I like to do this method.

Please.

So it's way better, in my opinion, to come home with extra folded, clean laundry.

after a trip and put it away in the drawers than to come home to a giant pile of unfolded laundry sitting on the bed.

Catherine, what are you doing with the dirty laundry?

Put it in like a trash bag

until you get home.

Let me quickly understand.

Let me make sure that I understand the system so that I can rule fairly.

Okay.

The system is you're going to see your dad, you get your laundry hamper.

take everything out of the dryer, put it in there.

Then think, what?

Do we need bathing suits for the pool at the HIX?

Throw them in there as well.

Maybe a couple of other must-have items like tow shoes for church or whatever.

Walk that from your house.

Are you going up or downstairs?

Yes.

All right.

There's some chance of spillage there.

Like, are you topped up in that laundry basket?

Like, is it

a mound

situation?

No.

No.

All right.

Flat top laundry basket.

Walk it down carefully.

Kick open the door.

Put it into the back of the CR-V.

start driving to Culpeper, an hour later, realize you forgot your husband and sons, go back, get them,

check into the hotel.

Once you're in the hotel, you put it down, you unpack.

Everything in the laundry basket goes into the drawers.

No, you dump it on the

bed.

Yes, this is what I need to hear.

All the details.

You dump the laundry on the bed.

Yeah.

And then fold it when I have nothing else to do.

Right.

Because I'm stuck at a hotel.

See your father.

You're not allowed to go over for a while.

I mean, you're always spending some time in the hotel.

Yeah, there's a couple hours in the morning.

John, you know what you do in a hotel when there's, when you're on a trip, it's shark week and you don't have cable at home.

So you just watch shark things the whole time.

T-Titans go in our case.

That's true.

Just watch, I mean,

here's what I picture.

Tell me where I'm wrong.

Catherine.

Because I've been to hotels with little kids before.

You get to the hotel.

The kids scream and scream about going to the pool as quickly as possible.

Andy takes them down.

Yes.

For the first time in 17 weeks, you have 15 minutes to yourself to watch Shark Week and quietly fold clothes.

And it's one of the most meditative and wonderful moments you can have.

That's pretty close.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't mean to tell you your feelings the way you tell Andy his feelings, but that's what I'm picturing.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

I tagged you for telling him that he shouldn't be embarrassed for

the laundry hamper.

You're going to be hearing about that in the verdict for sure.

I heard that.

I don't understand why he would be embarrassed.

I know.

That's a different, but you'll understand when we get to the verdict.

That's clear.

That's part of it.

Catherine, what do you watch in a hotel room?

Usually the kids are in charge of that.

So it, but it, but they, you know, it's always SpongeBob or Teen Titans Go.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You could do a lot worse.

You do a lot worse in a hotel room than SpongeBob and Teen Titans go.

And then, just so that I understand, you fold the clothes, you put them away.

In the drawers.

In the drawers.

And then you use them over the visit.

You're putting the things that are dirty now into like a garbage bag.

Yes.

Or, you know, like the laundry bag that they give you at the hotel.

Right.

The hamper, meanwhile, is just not being used at all at this point.

Well, you put your dirty clothes in the hamper.

In the hamper, right.

Then at the end of the trip, you put those into the garbage bag.

Yes.

And then you put the remaining clean clothes into the hamper.

Garbage bag goes on top of that.

Put it in the CR-V, go home.

Phew.

Good visit with dad.

And then you put the dirty stuff into the laundry and the folded stuff gets put away.

Yeah.

Gotta say, Andy, I love it.

Gotta say, I love it.

Now, Andy, your system is

you take the 20-quart jug of

chicken broth.

Extra thick and rich.

Make sure the top is loose.

Yes.

You go to the detail place, ask, have you the antidote?

Well, you're skipping a step, which is that you put it in the back of your car and you wedge it in with some things you think will probably hold it.

Right.

And then

when you have to break very rapidly, you suddenly realize that it cannot because you hear a very loud glug, glug sound.

And then you have trauma that you experience for the rest of your life around any open container, which I understand.

Yeah, I have flashbacks sometimes.

Andy, Catherine has already said that she's not going to embarrass you in front of your father by using her routine at your house, your dad's house, I mean.

Uh-huh.

What would you have me order besides that if I were to find in your favor?

That she is never again to suggest bringing an open container of unfolded laundry on a trip rather than packing a bag like any sensible person would do.

Catherine, what would you have me order if I were to find in your favor?

That next time I suggest doing my method, I don't get any pushback, that he just keeps his mouth shut and lets me do things my way.

What are you afraid, finally, Andy, is going to happen

if I were to rule in Catherine's favor?

That your sons will take this as a habit?

No, no, I'm not afraid.

That you will lose your standing, that everyone will know that the guy who runs Gear Road Garden

is married to the laundry hamper packing lady?

Hmm.

That you're that you that God or whatever will smite your house for the sin of spiritual indolence?

The

fear of embarrassment and the idea of spiritual indolence is less annoying to me than just the inconvenience of having this open top container rather than a handy suitcase that's easy to manage.

I see.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order order to make my decision.

I am going to go down the street to the laundromat and smell it for a while and ruminate, and then I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Catherine, this is an extraordinary system you've developed.

How are you feeling about your chances in the case?

I'm...

I'm hopeful.

I really am.

I think it's a good system.

It's a life hack.

Anybody's welcome to use it.

Oh, you're open sourcing it, huh?

Yeah.

Creative Commons license.

Andrew, how come you're not folding the laundry?

I do fold my own laundry.

I'm not allowed to fold her laundry because I don't do it the correct way.

Who folds the kids' laundry?

We both do.

That's good.

My wife folds the kids' laundry, so God bless her forever.

How are you feeling about your chances, Andrew?

I feel like I presented my case well.

I think that, you know, I have logic and common sense on my side.

Plus that corpse smell.

We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back.

It goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Judge Hodgman, we're taking a quick break to discuss what we have going on.

You, of course, are continuing to work on a secret project that one day may be announced with the great David Reese.

In the meantime, people should probably go on Hulu and watch Dicktown, the hilarious and touching touching uh animated series that you created with david reese that who knows whether it'll get a second season no one may ever know bit.ly slash dicktown if you'd like to find out what we're talking about but let me just say i'm serious about like we've said said this a lot of times i worry people don't understand that i'm serious about they should watch this this is like your obligation as a judge john hodgman listener i don't mean to give you homework but you got to watch this great show that john made john made a great show with our friend david rees it's so funny and touching and they're very short.

It's not going to take up that much.

You can binge them.

You can binge them in one night.

Each episode's 11 minutes long.

You watch them all.

It's not even the length of a feature-length movie.

Yeah.

And I appreciate that, Jesse.

I have every confidence that the listeners of Judge John Hodgman have done their part and have watched Dick Town.

And I know and trust and feel that whenever this secret project gets announced, they will do their part and help spread the word.

And I'm very grateful in advance.

I also want to let you know know that Solid Sound is coming back.

That's right.

Wilco, the band, is returning to North Adams, Massachusetts for their Solid Sound Festival, Memorial Day weekend, 2022.

Lots of Wilco concerts, lots of solo concerts, lots of other musicians and

comedy.

We're all coming back for Memorial Day weekend to put on a big show in an old factory that was turned into a large-scale installation art museum, which is also amazing called Mass Mass Mocha.

And returning to the comedy stage,

me.

But also, don't let that stop you, Gene Gray is coming back to co-host with me, along with our special guest, River Butcher, Nageem Farsad from Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me,

and everyone's pal, Nick Offerman.

So you can go to solidsoundfestival.com, that's solidsoundfestival.com, and check out the incredible lineup for this year's Memorial Day Festival.

I'm looking here.

Japanese Breakfast is going to be there.

Bonnie Prince Billy is going to be there.

Jeff Tweedy and Friends, well, that's not a surprise.

So many incredible, cool looking Mike Watt is going to be there.

Holy smokes, David Reese, you got to get out there to North Adams.

See your friend Mike Watt, solidsoundfestival.com.

Check it out.

If you've never listened to my NPR show, Bullseye, which is available via podcast, Bullseye with Jesse Thorne, some really cool stuff this week and last week that you might want to check out.

We're rerunning an interview, a recut version of an interview with the late and lamented legendary Louis Anderson.

And Louie was such an extraordinary guest.

I mean, a man who was so present in conversation and

so rich

in conversation, just a really remarkable human being.

One of my all-time favorite bullseye interviews.

And last week, two really great bullseye pieces that I was very proud of.

One is our friend John Darnell, who has a new book.

He talked about the thing he wishes he'd made, which is the debut album of Depeche Mode.

So if you want to hear him basically speak in perfectly coherent paragraphs, forming an extraordinary argument, including incredible emotional beats and

a lesson at the end, and just everything that you can't believe a human being could just do out of their mouth spontaneously.

That's John Darnell.

And then also a long interview with my old friend W.

Kamal Bell, who

took the springboard of co-hosting The Sound of Young America with me one time in Santa Cruz 18 years ago

to FX and then to CNN, where he's won some Emmys for his great television show, United Shades of America, which really is a wonderful show.

And Kamau is one of the smartest and most thoughtful people that I know about comedy and about race in America.

And he made a docuseries for Showtime called We Need to Talk About Bill Cosby

that is just profoundly insightful.

He's just an incredible listener.

Like, that's what makes United Shades so great.

That's what makes this film so great.

He directed it, and we had a long talk about that film and about the sort of the

meaning and implication of

this extraordinary cultural figure doing extraordinarily horrible things.

So,

yeah, it's a great conversation.

The docuseries is really brilliant, just like Kamau is.

And I recommend you go check out Bullseye and take a listen to it.

Let's get back to the case.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So, first of all, Andy, I'm going to say this.

I think you need to get your theology correct.

I do not live in a world where there is a God or whatever that casts favor or displeasure, to whom I must please in some way in order to be spiritually unlazy.

I don't wear toe shoes to church.

I don't go to church.

I am an agnostic in the sense of I truly don't know.

And not knowing means not really caring.

You say that there isn't a moral component to this, but I think that you're misstating your position or I don't understand it.

Let me put it that way.

Because

your practical arguments are all sound and we all agree you would not take a hamper on an airplane or a hot air balloon or through a train station, right?

Or any place where you're getting in and out of taxis and moving around a lot, right?

I think we all agree that.

And there are some practical pitfalls to Catherine's procedure here.

There is the possibility of spillage.

There is that one staircase.

You don't know what's going to happen on a staircase.

And you're absolutely right that there's nothing particularly unpractical.

about a suitcase, particularly if it's on wheels.

It's eminently practical.

But what truly seems to bother you, I think, is the embarrassment you feel

when you contemplate seeing your father see your wife standing there with a basket of unfolded clean laundry saying, this is my wardrobe.

What really seems to bother you is the reality of going into the holiday and express.

with your wife carrying a hamper of laundry because you feel being seen and you feel embarrassment and you feel shame, right?

You say that this is not a moral issue, but I would ask you to interrogate that a little bit in yourself

because shame and embarrassment

have a kind of code.

They're kind of encoded with someone is watching.

even if I can't see them.

Someone is judging, even if they're not here.

You know what I mean?

I mean, my morality is don't hurt other people, right?

But there is a different kind of traditionally patriarchal morality that comes through various religions, which is here is the right way to live.

And if you don't do it, I shall smite at you.

That's a painful way to live, in my opinion.

Because the truth of the matter is that at the Holiday and Express, no one cares about you.

If they see you, they don't care what you look like.

They don't care how you pack.

You don't need to impress them.

There is no judgment in the Holiday and Express.

And it should remind you that, truthfully, in this world, if you're not hurting another person, there really should be no judgment at all.

And the fact is, you're in this Holiday and Express, right?

And you have two relatively young kids who, you know, toddlers are hard, but what are they, nine and 10, 8 and 10, did you say?

8 and 10, yeah.

You know, you heard what Catherine said.

They rule the roost.

She doesn't get to watch any TV in the hotel room.

It's all Teen Titans Go and the other one.

And you know what?

That's wonderful because, you know, when our kids were that age and we would go to a hotel, they also ruled the TV.

And that's how I learned about Phineas and Ferb and Wonder Pets and got to

see some of the

best culture that I've ever seen.

Teen Titans Go is great.

But you can appreciate why,

as both of you being parents to young kids, the chance for adventure is low.

It's minimized when you're in the thrall of two young kids on the one side and parental obligation of a visit on the other.

Like on a visit to Culpeper to see your dad, the most amount of adventure you're going to have is, did I bring underwear or not?

What happens if I didn't?

I might have to go to the mall.

So there is that element, right?

There is that element that I love from the very beginning that I actually think is undermined by the fact that you're even picking bathing suits.

Because imagine if you showed up and there were no bathing suits.

What lesson would your children learn then?

They would have an incredible story to tell once they become short story writers later.

I love the wildcard aspect of this.

of this plan.

And I do think that it has actual practical applications.

Because when you come home and you've got a garbage or you know a laundry bag full of dirty laundry and a hamper full of clean laundry, that seems very tidy to me.

And I'm someone who appreciates tidiness.

But Catherine, now I must turn to you.

It is true that Andy feels embarrassment.

The fact that he spilled 20 quarts of chicken broth in his car

does not invalidate the fact

that he can be embarrassed in other situations of less than tidiness, shall we say.

You can be surprised that he feels embarrassed, but you can't say to Andy, you don't have the right to feel that way.

Because here's the thing, in the Holiday and Express, no one is thinking about you.

No one cares.

And why should you care what other people think?

But in your marriage, you are thinking of each other, and you should care about what the other person thinks and feels.

If he is embarrassed,

then you have to acknowledge that that is causing him discomfort in some way.

Not just say you don't have the right to because your car is a piece of chunk full of broth.

You drive around in a broth cart, dude.

You don't have the right to be embarrassed.

That's no good.

All of this said, the request from Andy is this: you never again suggest packing in the hamper.

And I'm going to rule in his favor.

The reason being, I don't think you should suggest it.

Just do it.

I think that there is an element of live and let live within this arrangement where

when you go to visit your father in Culpeper,

you can go ahead and pack the hamper your way.

Obviously, you've already said you won't visit his dad in Charlotte and do this.

And I mean, who knows?

Maybe Andy would be disowned if he saw, if his dad saw you with his laundry basket.

Be aware that it embarrasses Andy,

but within this circumstance of visiting your dad, that's your family visit.

Do it your way.

With regard to the beach, I would advise you not to try to expand this system yet

until and unless, and it may never happen, Andy's embarrassment level changes.

It might not.

You know,

Andy has his own thing to reckon with, with the idea of an uncovered bucket of stuff in a car.

He's got to work on that.

I would also say that you should make sure that your kids understand.

And Andy, you should pack a bag nicely.

And

Catherine, you should explain to your kids what your system is so that much like people who are of two different faiths, the kids can decide as they grow older how they want to be.

They've already taken sides.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Yes.

Have they both chosen the same side?

No.

Interestingly, the messier of our two children, the one that we can never get to help with family cleanups,

he sided with me that a suitcase is more sensible.

And the more tidy and rule-following child has sided with Catherine.

Yeah.

Honestly,

here I am talking about like, you should get over your shame about being judged by strangers.

And I, and, and, you know, look, we all have that.

I wouldn't walk into.

I wouldn't walk into the Chateau Marmont in Los Angeles with it.

Well, maybe I would actually.

That would be amazing.

Just think what Mary Kate and Ashley would think.

That would be so cool if I walked into the chateau with

a big hamper of laundry and said, take care of this, won't you?

And they would say, of course.

David Spade's head on a swivel.

What?

Why didn't I think of that?

But yeah, I would be wary of walking into a nice hotel with a hamper full of dirty or unfolded laundry, let's say.

There are social, there are circumstances in which that would be unusual and maybe a little uncomfortable.

I would say the Holiday and Express is not one of those circumstances.

Let it all hang out at the HIX.

But yeah, that's interesting.

I think that that's an, that's, if anything, this dispute has helped you gain some insight or points of interrogation into how your sons think and see the world.

And obviously, which parent they like better.

So have fun with that.

I think you should feel good that I'm ruling in your favor because I really am, Catherine, asking you to hold the line.

for now to this one trip to your dad.

I love the system.

system.

I love the randomness.

I love the adventure.

Maybe it'll make more sense to Andy over time, or maybe it won't.

And if it doesn't, you just have to respect that.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Catherine, how do you feel about your defeat that steals victory from the jaws of defeat?

I don't know exactly how to characterize it.

How are you feeling?

I feel great.

I think it's fair.

And as long as I can just keep doing that when we go see my dad, I'll be happy.

How do you feel, Andy?

I feel like it's a travesty.

It's a miscarriage of justice.

The judge seized on one,

the way I phrased my request that she never again suggest it and expanded that to rule in my wife's favor.

Someone has spilled injustice.

24 courts of injustice in the interior of your life.

It stinks to hide.

And no one, no one has the anti-stock.

Andy, Catherine, thanks for joining us on the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Another Judge Sean Hodgman case in the books.

In just a second, we'll offer some swift justice.

First, our thanks to Twitter user at BikesAreFun for naming this week's episode, Hampering with the Evidence.

And I just, I would like to thank all of the Twitter users who suggested case names this week.

They're all a lot of fun.

I love tampering with the evidence.

I want a special shout out to the many people who suggested basket case, but obviously I was going to use basket case for the cult ref, so I couldn't do it.

But thank you, everyone.

It was really great.

If you want to name a future episode, follow us on Twitter for the naming opportunities at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

While you're there, you can also hashtag your judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ H.

O.

I like to click on that hashtag.

I'll search that hashtag every couple of days, check to see what people have to say about this week's episode.

A lot of fun.

Join the conversation on Reddit at maximumfun.reddit.com.

And if you want to see the evidence for this week's episode and other episodes, go to instagram.com slash judgejohnhodgman.

You know what I'm going to have Jen do, John?

No, what?

Go on our Instagram and post the part of Waiting for Guffman, where the narrator goes, oh, I love beans.

Don't get me started on beans.

Juicy beans.

Now, don't get me started on beans.

Did you know that's David David Arquette and Rosanna Arquette and the other Arquette's dad that plays that character?

That's Daddy Arquette.

That's Daddy Arquette.

Oh, he's really funny, isn't it?

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Our editor is Valerie Moffat.

And hey, everyone, we're very excited.

We have an episode coming up featuring one of our favorite guests, Jay Kenji Lopez Alt, the food writer, the food scientist, the very popular YouTube fooder who films himself making the food with his GoPro on his on his forehead.

That's the technical term, John.

Yeah.

YouTube fooder.

He's a YouTube fooder.

He's been on the show before.

We really enjoy him.

And so if you have any disputes that are specifically kitchen disputes, disputes about food, disputes about how to make certain foods, disputes about which foods are good or bad, disputes about, no disputes about how to wash the dishes.

We're done with those.

Covered them up.

No dishes disputes, but that's the only thing we're taking off the table within the confines.

You could have refrigerator disputes.

Yeah, refrigerator disputes.

You could have blender disputes.

You could have immersion blender disputes.

Anyway, write to me at hodgman at maximumfund.org, or obviously you can submit via the form at maximumfund.org slash jjho.

We'll take any cases, of course, but if you have a kitchen dispute, we're looking for them particularly.

Maximumfund.org slash JJHO or email hodgman at maximumfun.org.

Now, here's some swift justice.

Micah says, Tupperware.

My wife calls it Tupperware because it's a bunch of small tubs.

Her sister calls it Tufferware because the material is tough.

They both need to call it by its proper name, Tupperware.

Uh

Tupperware is a brand name.

That's true.

It is a brand name that has become a generic name in usage, much like aspirin or trampoline.

You know, trampoline was a registered trademark for a rebounding bouncer.

But unless you are, Micah, you are, I mean, I dare you, Micah, to look into that cupboard or wherever you keep your Tupperware.

I dare you to send me a picture of an actual registered trademark for Tupperware on the bottom of any of those tubs.

Chances are you don't have any of that stuff.

You probably have some kind of common knockoff made by any number of different home supply brands.

So, unless it says Tupperware, your wife can call it Tupperware, your sister can call it Tufferwear.

I love both of those words.

They sound fun.

That's it for this week.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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