Logging a Case in A-pellet Court

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, logging a case in a pellet court.

Luke files suit against his wife Elena.

They live in an old converted schoolhouse in Vermont and heat their home using a wood stove.

Luke loves the wood stove, but Elena would like to replace it with a stove that burns pellets instead.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Everything is more complicated than you think.

You only see a tenth of what's true.

There are a million little strings attached to every choice you make.

You can destroy your life every time you choose.

But maybe you won't know for 20 years.

And you'll never ever trace it to its source.

And you only get one chance to play it out.

And they say that there's no fate, but there is.

It's what you create.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigant's in.

Luke Elena, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he makes his own heat?

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

I actually run fairly cold.

Did you know that, Jesse?

No.

That's very rare that my body temperature will be above 98.

I'm keeping it cool in my core temp.

I'm sorry, Luke and Elena.

It's nice to see you here on this Zoom where you are in Vermont.

I am now back in Brooklyn, New York.

You are already seated and you may remain seated for an immediate summary judgment.

By the way, hello, Jennifer Marmor.

Hello, Jesse.

Nice to see you guys.

And

welcome back to Live Litigants.

Luke and Elena, nice to see you as well.

So let's

see you all right that's enough fellowship yeah we've rollicked enough yeah let's get into contention mode for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors can either of you name the piece of culture that i referenced just now uh elena why don't you guess first oh uh i missed it um

okay

luke flash man i know look it's been a long time it's been a long time since we had a live litigant case we forget how we do it

you know it's easy i almost forgot to even have a cultural reference.

So you missed it.

That's fine.

Fair enough.

What's your guess, though?

What would be your guess?

She's stunned, silent.

I think that in Vermont, justice works differently.

You just take your issue to Ben or Jerry.

That's right.

You got to take it.

You got to take it to the court of fish.

Got to take it to the right.

Mike Gordon, the basis for fish, dispenses justice up there in Vermont.

No, Elaine, just give me a guess, any kind of guess.

I'm going to say Flash Gordon.

Flash Gordon?

Yeah.

The comic strip or the movie?

I'd say the comic strip.

Whoa.

Okay.

Deep cuts.

Yeah.

I would have been inclined to say the theme song from the movie.

He's just a man with a man something.

Flash.

Luke, it's your turn to guess.

I guess what I'm thinking now because we're just talking about, we were talking about cults earlier.

The Source Family documentary.

The Source Family Documentary.

Yeah, big up Father Yod.

That's right.

Yeah.

Luke is referencing a pre-show conversation we were having, establishing intimacy, rapport.

But that I will punish.

Because that guess is wrong.

Indeed, all guesses are wrong.

Although that, the Source Family documentary is a great documentary.

And in the plugs, when we plug our stuff, I'm going to plug another documentary about a communal living situation that took me by surprise.

You already know about it, Luke, because we have this background together.

Stay tuned to the plugs.

You'll find out about a good one.

But all guesses are wrong.

That was actually a quote from a movie that I will confess I have not seen, Senectokey, New York, by Charlie Kaufman.

And it's a quote about big decisions, because we have a big, this is a bigger decision than some of the ones we face on Judge John Hodgkin.

This is a serious impact decision, wood stove or pellet stove.

Because when you are in the cold and dark of a winter, say in New England, and the furnace breaks,

And you don't have a secondary source of heat, you are in big trouble.

This is something I've learned the hard way twice, once in Massachusetts and once in Maine, and something that I happen to know the screenwriter Charlie Kaufman has learned recently once in an unnamed location.

I will not explain more.

Because it doesn't have to be in New England that this happened.

Warmth is one of those things that it is easy to get used to, depending on where you live and how reliable your heat is, and to not plan properly for if you lose it suddenly once you have gotten used to it.

You all are in Vermont.

And so you know feeling your house go cold is one of the most helpless and terrifying and it's a shameful feeling too, because you feel like you've really messed up.

In my case, I really did mess up.

I forgot to have the guy come and fill the oil tank.

That was a mistake that I made.

And the oil tank went, I've talked about it before.

And luckily, we had a wood stove in the basement.

And when you're firing that wood stove, the panic panic that you feel stoking that fire is very, very deep.

And if you can't get a fire going or you have no secondary source of heat, then you have to go flee to strangers.

Now, in both cases, a wood stove came to my rescue, once in Massachusetts, once in Maine.

I like wood stoves, you know, but I'm biased, I guess, but I'm not going to recuse myself because I want to hear both sides, Luke's side and Elena's side.

So, given that this is very serious and I'm going to make a decision for your lives together,

I have some serious questions I have to ask you first, okay?

First of all, Luke and Elena, do you have power currently?

We do.

Yeah, because it was a big windstorm.

Yes, it was.

We're recording this in our timeline.

This is March, and there was a huge windstorm in the northeast.

And I know that it knocked out power in a lot of places.

Did you lose power?

Not yet.

Yeah, the gusts were like 40 miles an hour this morning.

yeah um it was negative two when i woke up so right we were almost thinking like gosh like we might need to go record somewhere else because we might lose power yeah no i mean do you have a generator we do not okay interesting so next big serious question

do you have a dog named lamjop

We do indeed.

All right.

We'll put a pin in that.

We'll come back to that.

I just wanted to verify that that was true.

He's sitting right behind my thing.

Yeah, he's sitting right behind your computer.

Lamb chop?

He's present.

Let the record show that

the record show that

Luke has switched camera view on his tablet to Lamb Chop lying on a couch under a blanket because

I guess it's chilly there.

It's a little cold here.

What would the temperature be like in your house, would you say now, in Fahrenheit, if you please?

I mean, I know you all flirt with Celsius up there in Vermont.

But

Fahrenheit, what would you guess?

I'd say in the room I'm in, I feel like it's about 62 to 65.

No, right.

I'm a little far away from the wood stove.

All right, okay.

And Luke, where in Vermont are you?

We are in the town of West Corinth, Vermont.

West what now?

Corinth.

All right, I'm looking it up.

Let's see if this is a real town.

Some people say Corinth, but that is

rejected as Corinth.

Some of the locals would say that Corinth is the original way to say it.

So I think the record should show.

How do you say it?

Well, we don't count.

We're not Vermonters.

I'm just Elena.

Corinth or Corinth?

Corinth.

Yeah.

This is a classic battle, John.

You don't know about this?

This is like who invented the French dip?

Philippe's the original or Coles?

I'll call it.

I pronounce it Cornhole.

So that's West Cornhole, Vermont.

That sounds good.

It's a very good game.

It's a great game.

I'm not dissing your town.

All right.

West Corn, Vermont.

I see it here.

It's in this

triangle between St.

Johnsbury,

Montpelier, I believe, the capital of Vermont.

Correct Amundo.

And then down in the bottom of the triangle, just over the Connecticut River, is Lebanon, New Hampshire, where David Rees and I once did a show.

Lovely, lovely part of the world.

Okay, so we know where you are in Vermont.

That's fairly far north.

It's fairly far north.

So let me ask, Elena, let me ask you this question.

Why in Vermont are you?

Well, Vermont just is.

Vermont takes you in and it shapes you.

But you have said that you are not Vermonters.

Correct.

I did start my journey in the Northeast.

I started in Rochester, New York, and I went down the East Coast to Asheville, North Carolina, eventually, where I met my dashing husband.

And then we decided to go.

The records show that Luke believes that is him.

You left Asheville, which is a beautiful, beautiful town in

Mountaintown, in western North Carolina, where I also did a show with David Reese, by the way.

That would be a place to stay.

A lot of people choose to stay in Asheville, North Carolina, but you said, hmm, let's go to Vermont.

How'd that happen, Elena?

You know,

it's something about Vermont.

It's magical.

Have you been?

Yeah, I've been to Vermont.

Yeah.

I've been to Brattleboro.

I've been to Burlington.

I've been to St.

Johnsbury.

Probably drove through West Corinth on the way to Lebanon, New Hampshire.

I've drove the shores of Lake Champlain.

What?

That's dairy country.

That's right.

I've been to the Boomerang Thrift Shop in Brattleboro, Vermont.

That's right.

That's basically Massachusetts.

But yeah,

I love Vermont.

Of course, it's beautiful.

Yeah.

But I mean, when did you...

Who initiated this move, I guess, is what I'm asking.

Oh, God, was it me, hon?

Or you?

I mean, I would say you initiated, but we both were like, yeah, let's move back up to New England.

I mean, where are you from originally, Luke?

I grew up in the town of Hancock, Maine.

In the town of Hancock, Maine.

No kidding.

Yes.

But Hancock County, Maine.

Yeah.

I got you, pal.

Closer to Ellsworth than the Hancock Point.

I'm really trying to lay off the Maine stuff because it was just so Maine-y for so long on the show.

I'm really trying to give people a break.

It's bad enough that we're doing Vermont now.

Do you know what I mean?

Vermont.

Vermont's magical.

It sucks you in.

Do you guys want me to just list towns in Southern California?

Fontana, Torrance,

City of Industry.

Sadly, the federal equal time requirements were repealed under the Reagan administration.

Chino Hills.

Rancho Kookamunga.

Rancho Kookamunga.

Rancho Kookamunga.

I understand, Luke, I understand you're trying to establish intimacy and rapport and to win this thing, but I've got to lay off the main.

We've got to stay in the Green Mountain state.

Understood.

Yeah.

So it was fairly mutual, and it's not like one of you got...

dragged up there by the other's dreams or anything.

Yeah, absolutely.

It was a very mutual decision.

That was a very vocal yes from Luke and a kind of resigned, slow nod of the head from Elena.

But you said that this was partly your, this is, you, this is your dream too, correct?

Yes or no?

Yes.

I do love Vermont.

Vermont is charming.

I just, I'm so cold and I would love a consistent heat source such as a pellet stove.

Right.

Okay, well, let's talk about your home, which is a converted schoolhouse.

That was a decision.

And it is heated

with one heat source.

Is that correct?

Currently a wood stove?

Is that right?

So our home is currently

heated with a wood stove and baseboard heat as backup heat.

So we have the baseboard heat as a source of heat for,

you know, if we're, if someone throws out their back, you know, as in the past seven days,

or,

you know, it's three o'clock in the morning and we don't want to wake up to stoke the fire, we have to rely on the backup source of heat, which would be the baseboard propane heat.

Oh, okay.

You have a backup propane situation.

We do, but I don't know if you know the difference between the price of propane and more natural sources of fuel, such as wood or pellets.

I understand where you are steering the direction of this conversation, and I appreciate it.

You would like to get a pellet stove.

Now,

I think we all know pretty much what a wood stove is.

For those of you who don't know, we have evidence that has been shared.

The photos of the wood stove in their converted schoolhouse will be available on the Judge John Hodgman show page at maximumfun.org, as well as on our Instagram at Instagram.com/slash judgejohnhodgman.

Let's take a look at the evidence just so I can describe to people who don't know what an in-house natural wood stove might be.

It looks like you would imagine.

There's a photo of it here.

It's a squat little piece of cast iron that has swing out doors.

It's sitting in the middle of this room, which I presume is fairly central in your house.

Is that right?

That is correct.

Can I speak on the stove briefly?

Yeah, why don't you speak on the stove and then we'll move on to the pellet stove option?

Tell me about your wood stove.

The company that made it is called Vermont Castings.

The model of the stove is called the Vigilant, 1977.

It was made in 1977.

And part of why we landed in the town of West Corinth is because Elena has not only one, but two sets of aunts and uncles that live here in Corinth.

And the wood stove came out of one of her uncle's barns.

Got it.

And so, yeah, it is, you know,

a piece of history, a piece of the family.

And it opens from the front, which is pretty standard for wood stoves.

One of the reasons why I like this one so much is it has a top loader as well, which is really not as common.

Yeah, so this is a vigilant 1977 cast iron box on a couple of, on four legs on top of some soapstone or some other kind of non-burnable material on the floor.

It's got swing doors in it.

You put wood in there.

You close the doors and the smoke goes up this long stove pipe that goes into, into, that then takes a turn into the chimney.

It looks like you would see in a comic strip.

Not Flash Gordon, but you know what I mean.

I would say it's a little small for it, but looking at the picture, I could imagine a witch kicking a child into it.

And so you love this wood stove for history, the fact that it has a family connection to Elena's West Corinth vuncular family or whatever, that it came out of a barn.

It's a real artisanal stove here, a real

1977.

Was it stuffed full of vintage vinyl when you got it out of that barn?

Covered in macrame.

Yeah.

It's covered in something.

Yeah.

You put it in?

Did you put it in, Luke?

I did with the assistance of cousins and uncles when we moved into the schoolhouse.

It looks real good.

It looks like a real witch kicker, as Jesse says.

But how does it do for heat?

I'll let Elena take this one.

Well, I'll tell you that the heat is nice.

It does produce heat.

It serves its purpose.

I would say that a wood stove is an adequate source of heat, but a pellet stove is a consistent source of heat.

And the

quality of the heat doesn't change, in my opinion.

Well, you did not send in a photo, Elena, of the pellet stove that you would like to get.

I was certainly going to say, you didn't send in a photo, Elena, of the quality of the heat.

Yeah.

Nor did you send in a photo of the heat.

So it falls to you, I'm afraid, to paint a word picture for the listener.

There are a lot of people who know

what a Vigilant 77 cast iron wood stove out of Vermont.

probably looks like, but pellet stove may be a little bit more esoteric to the average listener.

Get in your converted hasn't teach us.

A pellet stove looks just like a wood stove if you want it to.

They do make some really cool, modern versions of pellet stoves these days.

But a pellet stove can look very traditional as well, if that's the style that you're going for.

You could do a cast iron even, or a glass door so that you could see the fire going nice and beautiful behind that glass door.

So a pellet stove looks very much like a a wood stove.

The heat quality, very comparable to a wood stove.

What is it?

I'm helping you out.

What does it burn?

What does it burn?

Pellet stoves use compacted wood.

So instead of carrying in giant armfuls of logs, of pounds of wood, you carry in some pellets that are compressed wood pieces.

You then put into a little canister in this

stove that looks like

just

a hopper, thank you.

It looks just like a wood stove still, but you're putting tiny compressed wood particles instead, which then produce less ash

once they've burned.

They also burn for 10 or more hours, really.

Without stoking or feeding or putting more pellets in.

Yeah, all the effort that goes into

maintaining a wood fire.

It's quite laborious.

Wait, so you literally wake up at three o'clock in the morning to stoke the fire?

I think the first year that we lived here, we did.

And I have to interject.

I will allow it.

All of this talk about

the stoking and all of the work that goes into feeding the fire.

I mean, I am the one who

tends to the wood stove.

I order the wood, I stack the wood, and I keep the wood stove stoked and I keep it cleaned out of ash.

I've taken it on as pretty much my full responsibility.

Objection?

Elena, you have an objection?

I would like to point out that I am very willing and able when I am capable physically of helping to tend to the wood stove.

I am recovering from endometriosis, which is part of the reason that my husband has taken on the burden of the wood stove.

Well, I hope you're feeling as okay as possible.

Thank you.

And I would like to also point out that in the event that my husband's back was not at its best, you know, if someone's back were prone to being thrown out, for example,

then the other partner takes on more of the labor of the wood stove.

It's give and take.

Counselor, let's not be coy.

Are you saying that Luke is a fragile man who's about to break at any moment?

Do you say he has back problems?

I think that, yeah, I will let Luke speak for himself.

You know, when I carry in wood, I carry in, you know, pretty decently large armfuls of wood at a time.

What answer to what question is this?

Yes or no, Luke?

Do you have a trick back or no?

I work on a farm and I've thrown out my back on two occasions.

Two occasions?

How recently?

Within the past how many years?

Within the past one year.

One year, threw out your back twice.

That is correct.

And has the house gone cold as a result?

The house has not gone cold as a result.

What do you do on the farm, Luke?

You get up on some hay bales and spin some classic vinyl?

We throw some hay bales around.

I take care of cows and sheep and grow vegetables and run a farm stand.

John, Vermont is dairy country.

You know what they call that work?

Backbreaking work.

Backbreaking work.

Yeah.

I enjoy the work and I enjoy the work that goes into tending to the wood stove as well.

Let's take a quick recess.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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It's the stuff that professional chefs use, but because it is sold directly to you, it's a lot more affordable than some of the other high-end brands.

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It's an immensely useful piece of kitchen toolery.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Elena, you are young people, right?

You're in your 30s, early 30s.

Oh, my goodness.

Thank you, yes.

Right, okay.

And you're up there with lamb chop,

and Luke has thrown his back out a couple of times, but for the most part, he keeps the fire going.

I really need you to just tell me why you're not comfortable with the system as it is.

Maybe I could show you something.

All right.

I'll allow it.

It becomes uncomfortable physically when things such as this are found.

This is a piece of moss, for those of you who aren't sure.

This is moss from a piece of wood that i found in a clean pant leg as i put it on this morning for the record let me let the listeners who are listening to the this audio podcast

know a woman in vert just held up a little baggie with some vegetable matter in it

this is not

this is something that has happened before it's not that unusual

just let me just show you this this little piece of vegetable matter in this little baggie in vermont

All right, so you put that in the evidence bag.

That's moss from the wood pile that you found.

That ended up in my pants.

In your pants?

Yes.

In your pants.

And this is not an infrequent occurrence, unfortunately, Your Honor.

So it's gross, is what you're saying.

It's a little painful at times when they are more sliver-sized.

We do have a photo of the woodpile, which you submitted, Luke, as evidence.

this is a very handsome wood pile, I have to say.

Thank you.

I've taken a lot of pride in it.

Yeah.

You have a very well-constructed-looking shed that is closed on three sides, top, most importantly.

I think it's more of a lean-to.

All right, I'll call it what I want.

It's a shed, wood shed,

because a lean to would be less permanent.

Hey, Luke, stick to dairy matters.

It is keeping us sheltered from the snow and rain.

Snow right now.

Open on one side.

What direction

is that side facing, Luke?

Do you happen to know?

That is the north side.

Interesting that you would have it pointing towards the north,

the open part towards the north.

What was your thinking there?

Did you build this woodshed?

The woodshed was on the property when we moved in.

Oh, okay.

And it wasn't used for wood

before

I kept, started keeping the wood there.

Before I was keeping wood on

pallets on the other side of where we park our cars.

So I get about

five to six cords of wood a winter.

Oh.

And

a cord is technically like a truck bed's worth of cut wood.

No, technically a cord is 128 cubic feet of wood.

A stack that approximately four feet high four feet wide and eight feet long luke you know probably that i hate to repeat myself but stick to dairy matters

uh so you had been stacking your wood on pallets and then you're like i'm gonna put it in that shed that was just your innovation or did you read a book

I more word of mouth garnered information from other Vermonters.

Yeah.

Do they ever tell you to turn that shed around so it's facing south?

I would love to, but it might not be as easy as it sounds.

It's not a rotating shed?

No.

Like Hank's look around cafe.

Sorry, then.

That's my mistake, Dennett.

You're absolutely right.

It is a lean to.

If it doesn't rotate, it's a lean to.

If it's on a lazy Susan, it's a shed, everyone knows.

And

I could be wrong about this, but I'm just, whatever I decide, whatever I decide with regard to your fate, I'm going to recommend right now a book called Norwegian Wood, Chopping, Stacking, and Drying Wood, The Scandinavian Way.

Do you know this book, Elena?

You made a little look of recognition.

No, but I'm fascinated by your knowledge, and we'll take note.

Thank you.

Oh, well,

the court accepts your flattery, and it will get you everywhere.

It's by Lars Mitting, and this book, look, I know I said I wasn't going to mention Maine, but a

couple of summers ago, this book burned its way through every household that we came in contact with in Maine.

Everyone was talking about this book primarily for

the Scandinavian style of wood stacking, because everyone was talking about their wood stacks all of a sudden and all the science of stacking logs in order to dry them and season them.

In particular, the beehive method, the round method.

You know what I'm talking about, Luke?

I see you nodding.

I don't know a round, but I've seen people do them in like a pyramid.

Yeah, no, again, I know what my words mean.

Round is what I'm talking about.

Luke, shut your cheese hole.

Holy cats, these round stacks, you'll look it up, also called a Holzhauser in Germany, but in the Scandinavian countries, they stack their wood in a big round beehive with wood in the middle.

And the reason for that is to increase airflow.

to dry the wood as efficiently as possible.

And my guess would be, and I could be wrong on this, and I look forward to your letters, of course I do, hodgman at maximumfund.org.

But if if you didn't have a lean to, if you had a classic shed on a lazy Susan and you turned that thing around

to the south, to your southern exposure, and get some sun on that wood, that would be a good idea.

Just a thought for you.

I do get our wood already dried and seasoned.

So.

Oh, I.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I didn't realize that you were cheating.

Oh, I see.

See, I thought this was your hobby.

I thought this was your passion.

That the reason that you and Elena were suffering through these winters with variable heat

and risking your back at every turn

was because you loved this thing, this whole project.

So you're buying seasoned wood, eh?

I guess that makes me a poser.

And you say five or six cords a winter?

That is correct.

And

what is your home insulated with?

Paper-mâché?

What are your walls made of?

We're currently, I actually had a crew over yesterday to do attic insulation.

So we're working on getting our house weatherized.

By attic insulation, do you mean a roof?

You're putting a roof on?

Elena, I've avoided it for as long as possible, but now I would like you to explain your propaganda that you sent in the evidence you sent a poster advocating for the purchase of a pellet stove.

It says, pellet stoves are awesome.

Tell me why pellets, this is what it says at the top of this flyer that I presume

was handed to you by some cult leader at the farmer's market, and now you can't stop thinking about this.

I would just like to point out that the infographic has much more information, not just about the anatomy of a pellet here, the fact that a pellet is also at times made of things such as sawdust, waste paper, or residual forest waste.

So there are wonderful environmental impacts.

It's a 0%

carbon footprint with a pellet stove as well.

How is that true?

Because you aren't emitting the same emissions with a pellet stove as you are with a wood stove.

According to this, it's an 85 the EPA rates it is an 85% efficient heat source.

I've heard of pellet stoves before.

I've seen them advertised and I've seen dealerships around New England and stuff.

And I spent a lot of time doing some homework this morning.

That was a lot of fun for me, actually.

I normally don't like doing homework.

But I enjoyed looking at people comparing wood stoves to pellet stoves, particularly there's a really charming YouTube of a guy at Ember's Fireplaces and Outdoor Living in Denver, Colorado, as he gets a fire going in a a pellet stove and in a wood stove.

And he's a very sweet guy.

Check that out.

He spends a lot of time complaining about the sound of planes going overhead, which was really very adorable.

Besides.

But essentially, it's a box that looks like a wood stove.

It's fed by pellets in a hopper.

There's an auger in there, which is like a screw that drops pellets in at an even rate to keep it burning at a consistent temperature that you choose.

There's a fan that blows hot air into your world so you will be warm.

There's also, I believe, an intake fan.

And these pellets themselves, you know, as your propaganda broadside points out, are recovered, you know, bits of forest waste and sawdust and, you know, recycled wood.

It's not like trees which are made in a factory.

This is really natural stuff, these pellets.

And you get them in big bags and you feed them into there.

And

it's because of the nature of the stove.

I did check out independently of the link that you sent me, Elena.

You and I were thinking the same way.

I did go and check out

energy.gov because energy.gov, the federal agency,

Department of Energy, has a whole article about wood stoves versus pellet stoves.

And you're absolutely right that they are

very efficient

and low-polluting compared to a,

let's just say, a Vigilant 77.

And those are all good reasons to get a pellet stove.

Did I make the argument fairly, would you say?

Thank you.

Yes, I think you summed that up very well, Your Honor.

All right.

Luke, these are some compelling arguments for a pellet stove.

If I were to rule in Elena's favor, how would you feel about losing the Vigilant 77?

What does having a wood stove mean to you emotionally?

You know, I like being able to keep busy.

I like the lifestyle that we live up here,

which is not, you know,

it's not always easy, but I enjoy that kind of labor.

It keeps, you know, it keeps my mind occupied and it brings me joy.

Just like, you know, work, the work that I do on the farm with my hands.

And, you know, if we're talking about like,

you know, the prices for, you know, pellets versus wood

you guys were you know giving me some guff for getting my wood you know cut dried and and seasoned i could get um

whole logs delivered and it would be cheaper and i do have the equipment on the farm that i could use to cut our wood with but the amount of time that it would take me wouldn't

you know would would take away from my time of being able to to enjoy um you know my into enjoy the the time by the wood stove because I love you know doing crossword puzzles reading playing Nintendo by the wood stove I mean I love it spent spending spending time with your wife probably you should throw that

spending time with my wife

spending time with my wife by the very romantic wood stove do you feel Elena that you are a wood stove widow are you not getting enough quality time

with Luke?

You know, I think our quality time would be just as well spent next to a pellet stove with that beautiful kindling fire behind the glass doors.

I have a couple.

Oh, boy.

How many of a couple do you have?

Points or comments or whatevers?

Because I'm pretty much ready to make my decision.

I have three points.

They're short, short points.

You know, I've been defending the wood stove, but I I have points about the pellet stove too.

I don't think that they look cool.

I think that they look like kind of like uncanny valley versions of wood stoves.

They're kind of tacky.

And the pellets

that you guys talk about, they come in like 50-pound bags.

So, you know, if we're worried about me,

you know, hurting my back, I'm just as likely to,

you know, hurt my back while

schlepping around these large bags of pellets.

And it looks nowhere near as elegant as my wood stack in the shed lean-to would look, the bags of pellets.

What are the bags made of?

I would assume plastic.

Yeah,

where do you get them from?

Is there a pellet stove dealer nearby?

I don't know, but I get our wood from a guy that's...

Elena says yes, but tell me where you get your wood from.

Paul Poulin, 15 minutes down the road.

I'll let you buzz market Paul Poulin's wood lot.

Elena, where are you going to get your pellet stove from?

Pellets or us?

I actually, I have a co-worker who told me about where they get their pellets from.

That place uses recycled materials to wrap the pellets with.

It's a recycled plastic.

And then we also have a plastic recyclery at our local transfer station.

So we could easily recycle the plastic.

How far away is your pellet dealership?

Closer or further away the paw pool?

It's probably about 10 minutes farther, 15, something like that.

Luke, how much property do you have there?

We have one acre.

You have trees on it?

We do.

Okay.

I have one final note about the pellet stove.

I'm sorry.

All right.

I'll hear it.

This is my, this is my, like, I feel like it's my ace in the hole because I haven't shared this part of my argument with Elena either.

Oh, boy, everybody.

Even Elena is going to be surprised.

As we were talking about the windstorms this morning,

we do lose electricity pretty frequently up here.

And I believe one large element of the pellet stoves hopper mechanism is powered by electricity.

So, you know,

the auger is powered by electricity and the fan that shoots the air out is powered by electricity.

There's also a circuit board in there that

is

not only electrical, but requires maintenance on a regular basis because when you put electronics next to high heat for a long period of time, that's a problem.

Well, this thing's got it's got to plug into the wall, right?

Doesn't the whole stove?

That usually is a sign.

That is usually as a sign that something requires electricity.

That's right.

Yeah.

You have propane baseboard heat.

Is there a furnace somewhere?

There is, yes.

It heats our oven oven and our hot water as well.

Right.

And so when you lose electricity because you don't have a generator, what happens to that furnace?

That ceases to function.

It ceases to function.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Yeah.

And the wood stove would not cease to function

and does not cease to function.

Luke, you're a charming person.

I've never seen someone who was losing a case so badly come back so hard.

That was incredible.

That was incredible.

I mean, there was, I I mean, that was one of the greatest saves I've ever seen in the history of Judge John Hodgman.

I was hoping he hadn't put that one together.

I am open to a provision in your ruling, Your Honor, that we also must require a generator

if we are to go the route of a pellet stove.

That would rather decrease the amount of savings that you would enjoy.

It sure would.

It's a factor.

Luke, you had an unrelated experience with the big chicken barn.

Is that correct?

That is correct.

That would be main content, correct?

That would be.

That would be.

All right.

So we'll save that for the surprise post-credit sequence.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to hear my decision.

I'll be back in a moment.

I'm going to go stoke my fire.

warm up, and I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Luke, how are you feeling about your chances?

I feel like my final argument was pretty sound, but I know that there is a precedent to not rule for the husbands.

Well, there's a precedent that the husbands are wrong.

That's true.

I wouldn't say that it's something that we're forcing on the situations, something the situations are forcing on us.

That's very true.

Elena, how are you feeling about your chances?

Well, I got to say, I was feeling very confident up until the last there.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listen.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So, let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So

I turned to some people I know who live in cold climes and live with wood stoves and pellet stoves as part of their lives.

If you were listening last week, in anticipation of this case, I threw to Joel Mann,

our wintertime and sometimes summertime producer over there, W-U-R-U,

in Orland, Maine.

I said, wood stove or pellet stove.

And

he said then, and he reiterated in his text to me now, pellet stove, because of,

and then he sent me a bunch of spider emojis because he's scared

because he said last week

he's scared of of spiders living in the woodpile

and ticks and ticks and moss and all kinds of

Vermont junk that can find its way in the woodpile.

You never know.

Do you know my uncle-in-law Ted, in his woodpile, had a red squirrel living in there, inside the house,

and he liked it.

He fed the squirrel.

It was not a good idea.

Not a good idea.

And then I turned to David LeBlanc, who until about a year and a half ago was our very, very dear friend, still is, but was our neighbor across the road in western Massachusetts.

And David LeBlanc has a home.

This is not as far north, obviously, as

West Cornhole, Vermont or anything, but this is pretty, you know, they have winters there, real winters, not far from Brattleboro.

David LeBlanc's home is heated entirely by, guess what, a wood stove.

Entirely.

No backup.

Yeah.

Or I should say, the backup is the wood stove because the wood stove, just you burn wood in it and it works.

He built his own house, however, and it is tight as a tick, not the kind that sneaks into a wood pile, but the kind, the metaphor that means it's very, very well insulated, and they have big windows facing to the south.

And David LeBlanc is very pro-wood

for a lot of the reasons that we talked about today.

Luke, you brought up at the last second, right?

Which is that the pellets are made somewhere.

They come in bags that need to be recycled.

The pellet stove needs electricity, so if your power goes out and you don't have a generator, then you're stuck and you don't have that heat.

All of those arguments,

and also the natural pleasure of stacking wood and the tactile element of having wood and cutting wood and burning wood and everything else.

And they've got a glass-fronted wood stove.

I've seen it.

It's very pretty.

But the thing that struck me

is that I asked him how

this is his whole source of heat for the winter.

You know how many cords he burns per winter?

Two and a half.

Wow.

Two and a half cords.

That is half of what you are burning.

Because I will give you this, Elena.

The Vigilant 77 is a piece of junk.

The Vigilant 77 is not vigilant at all.

It is totally distracted as it is letting heat.

seep out

of all the cracks that I can see in this photo.

the Vigilant 77 is too small.

The Vigilant 77 is too old.

Jesse Thorne, you were going to say something earlier about wood stoves.

Sorry, the dog came in.

I'm sorry.

Lamb chop, what are you doing?

Lamb chop.

Lamb chop is hearing justice.

Lamb chop is hearing justice coming down, and I don't blame Lambchop for coming in.

Lamchop's just checking in to make sure Luke's okay.

I know.

Lambchop came in to lick the tears off of Luke's face.

And I'll tell you what, Lamchop is lucky that those tears aren't frozen icicles because the Vigilant 77 is an old piece of iron, and I know old things are supposed to be great,

but I know that Jesse knows.

Jesse, you were going to point something out earlier, and I asked you to hold on to it for a second, which is what what about wood stoves?

Wood stove technology has come a long way in recent years and recent decades to the point where, you know, wood stoves are no longer just a big chunk of metal that you throw wood into.

They're sophisticated appliances designed to maximize the efficiency of heating and the efficiency of the fuel use.

Yeah, they've got all kinds of baffles and secondary air sources.

And by this, I mean tubes,

not mechanical stuff stuff that can break down.

They are sophisticated compared to the Vigilant 77, but they're still dumb boxes that you burn fire in, but you burn that fire much, much, much more efficiently.

The Department of Energy itself, energy.gov, will attest there are wood stoves that definitely rival that 85% heat efficiency of a pellet stove.

And you can get them with catalytic converters in them that will really reduce pollution.

Totally comparable.

Totally Totally comparable in terms of heat efficiency and even in air pollution.

And they have them with glass

and you can see the wood burning nicely.

And I saw what that guy was showing me at Ember's Fireplaces and Lifestyle in Denver, Colorado, that side-by-side comparison.

I saw that pellet stove burning.

It's not pretty.

It was not pretty.

I'm sorry.

Humans have been looking at fires burning for as long as we've had fire because

it is a beautiful thing to look at.

And they've been looking at beautiful fires burning while playing Nintendo since the early 1980s.

It's true.

It's true.

And you have a fan that makes noise.

You're heating your house by convection heat, whereas a wood stove is radiant heat.

And I regret to inform you, Elena, that the technology of the wood stove has caught up with the convenience of the pellet stove.

And indeed, a good new wood stove can have a nine to ten hour burn without being touched.

My friend David LeBlanc leaves that burning overnight.

And it's in, it was, I hang on, listen to what he just, listen to what he said.

This is a true thing he said to me.

There was a 20 degree Fahrenheit below zero wind chill last night.

And we get up in the morning and the house is 70 degrees and the wood stove is just ashes.

It just burns overnight.

So, Elena, you are correct.

The Vigilant 77, with all of its attendant sentimental attractions, is junk.

Throw it away.

If you are going to invest in a new appliance, and I believe that you have to do it,

I will resort to my bias and Luke's love for wood and say, make it a wood stove.

You moved to Vermont.

Pellet stoves are for retirees.

I'm sorry, you're not there yet.

I don't like to say this, but it's true.

You're young people who moved to Vermont.

Luke works on a farm.

This is the lifestyle you chose.

Yeah.

Luke, if I rule in your favor, though, you've got to earn this.

Yeah.

Now, look, I don't want to represent like I'm out there chopping wood.

That has not yet happened.

We get green wood delivered, but it's cut for fireplaces.

And then we stack it.

Or I should say my wife leads the stacking because it's her passion to stack these beehives and they look amazing.

And there is something so, so special

about laying down wood in the spring that you know you're not even going to touch until this winter or maybe the next winter.

When you are heating with wood in a place like Vermont,

you are directly helping local companies.

Not that the pellet dispensary is some kind of like predatory Walmart or anything.

I don't know what they're all about.

But Paul Poole's 15 minutes down the road, he's counting on you to buy that wood.

You can buy more wood from him.

You can buy green wood from him earlier in the year, and I bet get a better price.

And then stack it.

And then season it.

Read that book, Norwegian Wood.

Not the Murakami novel, which is also called Norwegian Wood, which is great.

I'm talking about the one about stacking wood

and the feeling of connection.

I'll just read to you a quote that I was, and I'll leave you with this.

This is a quote from Ruben Knutson in this book, Norwegian Wood, Chopping, Stacking, and Drying Wood the Scandinavian Way.

And he stacks these beehives of wood in his house there, somewhere in Scandinavia, I don't remember where.

And he says, it's a part of the great yearly cycle of things, and wood lets you feel as though you're part of it all.

A log that is heavy and damp puts you in direct touch with spring.

It's a harbinger, a kind of preparation, a hint of something good in the winter that lies ahead.

But there's nothing sentimental about it.

I never shed any tears about burning the perfect log.

It's not such a bad idea to have this kind of relationship with something that is as fleeting as life itself.

And I'm telling you right now, Ruben Knutson is a liar.

I bet he's shed a tear over burning the perfect log.

It's a beautiful thing.

It's a perfect log that you seasoned.

I'll tell you one thing no one's ever done, shed a tear over burning a pellet.

And

certainly no one's ever jumped up and down with joy when their electricity goes out and their pellet burner can't heat the house anymore and they got to switch over to propane.

You don't have to get a generator if you get a wood-burning stove.

And for that reason alone, I would say go ahead and do it.

But mostly, lean into

the beauty of the life you have chosen.

Elena, I'm sorry, I'm finding in favor of Luke with the obvious caveat, get a good one and do a better job.

This is a sound of a gabble.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Elena, how are you feeling?

A little deflated, but I'm glad we'll be investing in a more efficient future and a more eco-friendly one at that.

Luke, how are you feeling in triumph?

Triumphant.

I feel good.

I feel good.

I am humbled by John's friend who only uses two and a half cords of wood.

I mean, it's like, I know

I'm stacking way more wood than I need to be.

And so, you know, we only recently bought our house.

So I'm really working on doing what I can to make it as, you know, efficient, heat-wise, and, you know, on my own body as possible.

So yeah, you know, getting

a better wood stove is definitely the right route to go.

Luke, Elena, it's been a pleasure to have you on the podcast.

Thanks for joining us.

Thank you.

It's been an honor.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

Before we dispense Swift Justice, we want to thank Jonathan Arbegast and Karen Kosten for the inspiration behind this week's episode title, Logging a Case in Appellate Court.

If you would like to name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, we regularly put out our calls for submissions there.

You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ H O

and check out the Maximum Fun subreddit.

That's maximumfund.reddit.com if you want to chat about this episode.

We're on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

Make sure to follow us there for evidence and other fun stuff.

We're also personally on Instagram at johnhodgman and at put.this.on.

Our producer is the ever-capable Ms.

Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment.

Scott says, I think unsalted saltines should be called eans.

This annoys my wife.

There's nothing inconsistent between those two sentences.

That's it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho or email hodgman at maximumfund.org.

Remember, no case is too small, as we just learned.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Post-credit surprise sequence.

Hey, everybody.

Listener, Natalie, as you've been waiting to hear, chimed in with a third set of lyrics to Jess Fox's garlic on my flapstakes song.

I want to thank all of you who sent in lyrics, especially those of you who sent them in and sang them.

The contest is over.

Natalie, please write me at hodgman at maximumfund.org and claim something off the maxfunstore.com website for me to send to you.

But without further ado, and without, and definitely without any further post-credit surprise sequences after this song, don't even listen after this song.

Just turn it off.

There will be nothing after Natalie's rendition of garlic on my flapstake.

And now, coming to you, a cappella from the Circle City.

This one's going out coast to coast, podcasting from Australia to Greenland.

and all you rollicking litigants at sea.

We got fresh garlic on the flapstake in our pan.

Save some for Gene Griggio and Joel the main man.

And in summertime and fun time, Monty too.

It's fresh garlic on the flapstake.

Judge John Hodgman's style to you.

Fresh garlic on the flapstake, come on through.

Iron scale it justice just for you.

Satsumas and scallops on the side.

The court will be in session nationwide.

A podcast or a kitchen, either is fine.

We've got disputes to settle, and the crux is mine.

So, with Jennifer and Jesse, and summer lord, fresh garlic on my flapsteak, that's my court.

500 cases have gone by from hot dogs to robuts to pizza and trash, and all these weird dads are sweeter than pie.

I might have some kung pat chicken while my scary gravy thickens Spouses have systems And friends and neighbors Maybe even their cousins They all have gripes with an obscure reference And August is wrong

I'm judging folks of all types

Abide by my verdict Win or defeat

Swearing by would ever have a seat

This rollicking boat trip has been quite a ride.

It's better in the courtroom, come inside.

Tell me your stories and I'll tell you more.

No specificity of narrative is a bore.

The sound of my gavel from winter to fall.

Fresh garlic on my flapsteak, that is all.

Wait, did you say scallops?

Okay, Luke, it's a surprise post-credits sequence.

You have a story about the big chicken barn in Ellsworth.

You have 30 seconds to tell it.

Get ready and go.

When I was a punk teenager, I stole a magnet from the big chicken barn in Maine.

The magnet has been on my fridge ever since then, and I feel really bad about it.

The only reason I stole it was because it was in a box of magnets for sale, and I didn't want all the magnets.

I just wanted the one.

It has a picture of a sheep on it, and it says lay dirty.

With two seconds to spare, one of the greatest stories on Judge John Hodgman of all time.

Please take a picture of the magnet and send it to us.

Oh, there you go.

That's time's up for you, Luke.

Thanks, Luke and Elena.

Bye.

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