Live from Toronto at the Danforth Music Hall 2019

Hello, it's me, Judge John Hodgman.

Don't freak out.

I know Jesse normally does the introductions, but I'm doing it today.

I'm here to tell you: welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

This, you should know, is a live episode that we recorded in Toronto, Canada at the Danforth Music Hall on November 6th.

We had a great time, and now you're about to as well.

Here comes the podcast.

Toronto, Ontario, Canada, you've come to us desperate for justice, And we're here at the Danforth Music Hall to deliver it.

Let's bring out our first set of litigants.

Please welcome Rebecca and Meg and Jared and Greg.

Tonight's case, LARP DM.

Rebecca and Meg file suit against Jared and Greg.

They're all part of a friend group that enjoys playing the spaceship bridge simulator game, Artemis.

Everyone has a great time.

Don't woo that.

Everyone has a great time playing this game on designated Artemis nights.

But recently, Jared and Greg have extended the role playing outside the game.

Rebecca and Meg believe the role-playing has become disruptive, overpowering non-game night social events, and would like the role-playing to be regulated.

Jared and Greg enjoy role-playing and don't want to stop.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please metaphorically rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference.

Oh,

it's John Hodgman for the double.

Come right up here.

That was Judge John Hodgman for the double.

All right, contestants, here's how it's going to to work.

I'm going to read out the clue.

I, Judge John Hodgman, I'm going to fill it out in silence.

You say nothing until I come to you.

All right.

So you're going to break up into teams.

You're going to pick up the word that follows this word.

And whoever guesses the same thing as me automatically wins the case.

How's that sound?

Fun?

Good?

Okay, ready?

You're going to break up into teams.

Okay, so

I'm going to say the clue.

Plaid

blank.

Plaid

blank.

Whichever team matches Judge John Hodgman's answer wins the case automatically.

I'll give you a few minutes to think about it.

Time's up.

All right, swear them in, Bail, Chessey Thorne.

We'll get back to your answers in a moment.

Rebecca, Meg, Jared, and Greg, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he is is not an international recording star?

Yeah, yes.

Yes, yes.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

All right.

You may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors.

So we have more litigants than usual here.

We have Rebecca and Meg on one side of the case and Jared and Greg on the other side.

And when I came into this courtroom, I asked you to play a little game with me.

Could you match the next word that I would have guessed coming after plaid?

Jared and Greg, what did you guess?

Pajamas.

Plaid pajamas.

Hmm, interesting.

And Rebecca and May, what would you guess?

Pants.

Plaid pants.

Oh, I'm so sorry.

All guesses are wrong.

The correct answer, the one that matches mine anyway, was plaid Canadian Match Game.

Plaid Canadian Match Game.

Which is a game show that I was on here in Toronto in 2013.

Filmed five episodes of Canadian Match Game in one crazy day.

Had to change clothes five times, and by the last day of the show, they were handing us styrofoam cups full of vodka.

That's Canadian television for you.

John, I thought you said this was supposed to be an obscure cultural record.

I know.

I'm surprised that you didn't get it.

But here we are anyway.

We have to hear your case.

So, who will speak for Team Rebecca and Meg?

I can speak for Tecumseh.

Okay, are you Rebecca?

I am Rebecca.

Okay.

Meg, you may chime in if you need to, of course.

And who will speak for Jared and Greg?

I, Jared, will speak for the two of us.

All right.

And who comes to seek justice before this court?

So Meg and I submitted this case.

All right.

Rebecca, what is the issue here?

So

as Jesse mentioned, we play this game called Artemis, which is a spaceship bridge simulator.

Yes, it received one woo in the audience.

One appropriately lonely woo.

Right.

Because space is lonely.

For the vast majority of the audience here, what is Artemis exactly?

What is a space bridge simulator game?

So essentially, it lets you pretend you were on Star Trek or any other show of that ilk.

So there's a captain role and a helm and engineering and comms and weapons.

Yeah.

There's only one show of that ilk, Star Trek.

Yeah.

So this is a way to steal Star Trek.

What?

Star Trek the Next Generation.

I know, but I'm.

The point is, you all stand around and pretend to be on a Star Trek bridge.

Oh, John.

But you're not.

John.

Some episodes of Deep Space Nine when they're in a spaceship instead of on the space station.

Like if they went into a spaceship

from the space station to Deep Space Nine.

Excuse me, you're absolutely right.

There are Starship bridges on Star Trek, Star Trek the Next Generation, sometimes on Deep Space Nine.

Voyager.

Let the record show for the listener at home that someone in the audience yelled out Voyager before Jesse Thorne could do it.

And I'm so grateful to you.

Hi, John.

Yes.

The movie Master and Commander, but with a boat.

That's a boat instead of a spaceship.

But they have many of the similar roles.

Sure, I understand.

As Russell Crowe.

Right.

Let's now end this.

So Artemis

is the name of the ship?

Yes, you could name it something else.

The whole game is called Artemis.

I think that's the idea.

And this is basically just a way for this company to steal Star Trek IP and make money off of nerds.

Yeah.

I say, cool.

And so the four of you play together, but that's not a full crew, is it?

No, so so I think a full crew is six people, but sometimes we can get multiple ships going in one house.

Oh.

But it's all simulated, it's all on networked computers.

Yeah, so we'll set up a little LAN party situation.

Okay, I got you.

And what and Rebecca, what is your typical position on?

Typically I like to play comms.

Comms, right?

Like you have a little thing in your ear and you're like

they're hailing and okay.

And why do you like that position so much?

I get to talk trash to the other ships and

also it is less complicated than the other roles.

When you're talking trash to the other ships, are you talking trash to simulated ships

or other people that are playing all around the world?

Our other friends who are playing with us in the same building.

In the same building.

You all live in a weird building together?

Oh, I wish.

This feels like a science fiction movie now.

We don't, but that would be great.

Okay.

You just live in a home that has multiple rooms dedicated to pretending to be spaceships?

More or less, yeah.

I know that you sent in some evidence, but just to give everyone in the room a visual, can we see a picture of the gang at play?

That's us.

All right, there we go.

So everyone is saluting as though you are part of some weird space military.

You're organized around a big TV screen which is showing you fake space.

And you each have your own laptops, which are your presumably your bridge stations that are showing you readouts.

So, Rebecca, you are comms.

Meg, what position do you usually take?

Weapons.

Weapons, okay, awesome.

How come you like that one?

Simpler role, but also I get to nuke people, which is fun.

Fair enough.

I'm sorry, Jared?

Jared.

Yeah, which position do you play?

I usually play science.

You play science officer?

Okay, that's fascinating.

And

it's a little on the nose, Jared.

Greg, that's you in the foreground here.

What role do you usually play?

In this case, I was captain of the ship.

Captain.

Is that typically your role?

I enjoy it.

Yeah.

Okay, very cool.

I can tell you enjoy it because it seems to me like you're wearing a costume in this photograph.

Is that correct?

I did construct a costume that night, yes.

Is there more evidence to this?

There we are.

For the at-home listener, what we're looking at here is a photograph of a wall-mounted microwave

with

a man's peacocking blocking our view.

Captain Gregg is wearing a uniform, I believe, of his own making.

Did you sew it yourself?

My spouse taped on the construction paper.

Is it nip shit?

Your spouse taped on the construction paper.

And there's a little insignia that is a rip-off of the Star Trek insignia.

What federation of planets are you captaining in?

You know, we never quite figured that out.

Okay, I just wanted to know how deep this cosplay and this fantasy goes.

Have you thought about having a committee meeting?

If I was going to start a federation of planets, I'd figure out which planets first and then go from there.

Because you could then answer the question, am I in your Federation of Planets from people from different planets?

That's a good point.

So this costume is to some degree heart of the dispute.

Would that be correct, Rebecca?

So we like role-playing in the spirit of the game, or in the moment of the game.

Something that's not technically part of the game that we'll do is assign ranks.

So we'll be lieutenant or sergeant.

Oh, that's not part of the regular game?

No, we added that in.

Oh, that's interesting.

This is a big part of the Star Trek world.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

So we wanted to.

You wanted to get closer to that IP that you were ripping off.

Exactly.

Do you have different names?

Do you make up characters?

Well, I think we like to do call signs.

So

I might.

Thank you.

I think at one point I was nacho, and I don't remember what

names were.

I think I, well, I started that night as a lieutenant, and I kind of rose in the ranks as the the night went on.

As the night went on,

you got further promotions.

It's kind of part of this.

What was the highest you ended up ranking?

Well, apparently, I was at the very end of the night promoted to captain.

Oh, apparent Captain Nacho.

Apparently.

That is going to be easier for me to remember than Rebecca.

I apologize.

Okay, apparent Captain Nacho, I got you.

So, Apparent Captain Nacho, what is the dispute, though?

I don't understand.

You all seem to be friends.

You're all having fun.

And yet, here you are in front of me in space court.

So, the problem is when the game ends,

some people,

Greg and Jared, and some of our other friends as well, will continue to roleplay in their ranks and characters after the game has ended.

And even on the- Let me guess, are they also guys?

Yes.

Jared, what's your call sign?

Rankin call sign, soldier.

It was during a game when I was playing comms instead of my usual science, and my call sign was synapse.

Synapse?

What was your alien species?

I was human.

Do you ever play a non-do people play non-humans?

Yeah, but we should get in.

A Romulon, a Klingorp,

a Volcane.

Because you're stealing everything else.

You might as well steal.

I'm not, look, I'm not accusing anybody of stealing anything, except for Artemis, which is stealing a whole idea.

But it's a fun game, and everyone's having fun, no harm done.

Good.

So, except for the harm that is being done by the guys you're playing with, who are still going by their ranks in real life.

Yes.

So they will,

on one particular night, they continued to debate about something that had happened in the game in their characters for a long time after the game had ended and the rest of us were hanging hanging out and having a nice time.

Were Synapse and Captain Gregg arguing about this issue personally?

All right.

Synapse, what was the argument about?

There have been a couple.

Pick three.

Or one.

So at one point, we were on vacation, and during one of our previous games, I had been demoted and temporarily

and put into the brig.

What did you do wrong, Mr.

Synapse?

I was insubordinate.

And who demoted you?

Captain Gregg.

Captain Gregg.

This is becoming.

Captain Gregg.

Can you tell me the circumstances of Mr.

Synapse's demotion?

Don't wait for the translation.

I can see why you're a leader.

Truly patent-esque.

Silent, strong, unanswering, unsure,

shy.

What were the circumstances of Mr.

Synapse's demotion, sir?

The original incident started with my science officer, Jared, plotting a jump out of a nebula.

Excuse me.

Please hold your standing ovation for the end of the sentence.

I need to hear this.

When we made the jump, we found ourselves in the wrong area, and there was some commotion among my crew over who made the mistake, science or Helm, because they need to work together to plot a course.

Go on.

At that point,

I couldn't have that disagreement, and I just said we should drop it.

So science and helm were bickering over who messed up and brought you into the neutral zone or whatever.

So you had to resolve this.

The morale of the crew, you had to cut this out.

Yes.

And so, how did you do it?

I'm sure you gave them an extremely stern talking, too.

Well, I didn't have time to at the moment.

We were in the middle of combat.

So

I had to relieve Jared of duty synapse.

He

resisted this, so I also had to demote him

and

at that point promote Rebecca to replace him as my first officer.

That is how Nacho became number one?

Yes, correct.

Wow.

For the at-home listener, Rebecca is nodding proudly.

Rebecca, obviously you don't disagree with your captain's assessment of the situation and how he handled it.

No, that all was fine for me.

It was more so

what has happened since then.

So what has happened since then?

So they have had a tendency of continuing to have power struggles about their rank and role outside of the game.

They have no rank or role outside of the game.

That's right.

What form does their conflict take outside of the game?

So one particular incident was when we were all on vacation together.

I believe Greg and my husband Dave were trying to force Jared to pay fealty.

Jared was, to, I think it was a large thermos.

That they wanted him to.

You were on vacation together?

Yes.

Where were you?

Lost in Paradise?

Where were you on vacation?

To the Dominican Republic.

The Dominican Republic.

And you could not leave Artemis behind.

Some people couldn't.

Okay.

So who is being told to pay fealty to a thermos?

So Jared was being told and was extremely distressed about this.

Being told by whom?

Greg and.

Captain Greg says, no, not me.

Our Admiral David.

Oh!

Your Honor, he was simply following orders.

Where is Admiral David now?

Oh, he's out there.

Captain Greg, is it true that you and Admiral David were

forcing or demanding that Mr.

Synapse pay tribute to a thermos when you're supposed to be having a good time on vacation with other humans?

I encouraged him to follow the chain of command.

Yeah.

And what was the purpose of the fealty paying to the thermos exercise?

I I didn't ask.

I just.

You know, Captain Gray.

At first I thought you were just a shy, nervous young man.

But now I'm beginning to believe you may be the most dangerous person on earth.

Mr.

Synapse,

can you explain why you are being asked to pay fealty to a thermos and how what form that takes?

What is the ritual of thermos fealty?

Admiral David had been going throughout all of our friends, having them pay fealty to this thermos,

which means kiss it.

Go on.

Thermos means like drink container, right?

Yes.

Yes, is there

Is there an Artemis slash Canadian other

meaning of thermos?

It was just a large impressive thermos.

But again, thermos means drink container in Canada, right?

It doesn't mean anything weird, right?

Did you say impressive or oppressive thermos?

Admiral Dave was asking everyone in the group to kiss the thermos to prove what?

Their loyalty.

Maybe part of his ego.

I'm not sure.

The point is.

Admiral Dave's out there going, you can't handle the truth.

The point is that I noted that it is a corruption of the chain of command that they kept telling me I had to pay fealty to the thermos for

the following chain of command.

And I said, first of all, it's a corrupt chain of command.

Second of all, we're on leave right now.

The time frame, you're pointing at a photo, a haunting photo of a man in a Christ figure position

surrounded by a darkened field and a plane of fire.

What is going on?

So we were in the Dominican Republic.

Sure.

Just having a good old thermos party like Canadians do.

Yep.

They were trying to make me pay fealty while we were on the beach at night.

By they, you mean your captain and your admiral, Dave, and...

Of course.

Right.

So I ran out into the ocean to get away from

the corruption.

You wanted to get into international waters.

So you're in the ocean now screaming, we're supposed to be on the beach.

Yes.

Do you have any other evidence?

At that point, your only fealty was to Poseidon, the god of the sea.

Meg,

I haven't heard from you.

I'm hoping that you can help make some sense out of all of this.

I can say that I am Jared's wife, and he is not a strong swimmer.

And

the video that we did take has me in the background saying, yeah, I'm pretty worried for his life.

So what's your call sign, Meg?

Hot dog.

Hot Hot dog.

Hot dog, nacho.

This is for either of you.

When this

weird psychological mutual self-torture is going on and you're supposed to be on vacation, how does that make you feel?

Extremely stressed.

Extremely stressed.

Nacho?

I think it's mostly annoying.

It seems a little performative and indulgent.

Oh, does it?

Yeah.

It says here, you're all in the age range of 29 to 32.

You all live in Waterloo.

You all have jobs.

I presume none of you have children.

That's true.

That's true.

Yeah, that's.

How did you know?

Oh, because you're children.

Because you are children, and I envy you.

You would have me order what?

Nacho and hot dog?

If I were to rule in your favor?

I think it would be that they keep the role-playing to the nights that we actually play, and also just take it easy a little bit with the authority struggles.

Sure.

Yeah, we would be prepared to offer role play notes out of the game if it didn't involve so much weird power misuse.

Oh.

I might say

that you don't want to make that offer.

I love my husband.

Whether or not they are calling themselves captain and admirals,

there is going to be power struggles and authority abuse no matter what.

Struggle is a generous term.

Yeah, right.

Mr.

Synapse, Captain Greg,

if I were to rule in Hot Dog Inacho's favor, why would that be unfair?

Why do you feel the need to continue this play as far away as your vacation and the ocean itself?

The thing is, it doesn't have to be about the

starship RP.

We just deeply enjoy RP in general.

RP meaning role play.

Role-play.

So just trying to get into a character that's not your true self, like if you want to RP as a judge or a bailiff or something like that.

As someone who has just purchased specific Canadian judicial robes,

I will allow that.

Dishonor to the court.

The point I'm making is that it's very fun.

It's obviously something

that

some people enjoy.

Could you guys just go to your own weird island alone and do it rather than stressing hot dog and nacho out?

We don't actively pull them into it.

Yes, but you're affecting them nonetheless.

Do you disagree?

Mr.

Synapse.

I do not disagree.

This is your human wife.

Synapse!

Your wife was afraid you would die.

She shouldn't have been.

I had it under control.

We know.

The God of the sea was on your side.

He'd send his turtles to save you.

So, if I may use a reference to the McElroys.

No.

Okay.

I believe I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going into my ready room.

I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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I don't necessarily have follow-up questions for any of you.

Oh, wait, about that bailiff judge thing that you said.

I have one follow-up question.

Are you being paid to be here tonight?

Here's my real question.

You guys have really great made-up names.

Can I have a fun made-up name?

We had one night where we all chose names based on different types of noodles.

So if you have a favorite pastor.

I could be like Rigatoni or something.

Bailiff Rigatoni?

What's a bow tie noodle called?

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Mr.

Synapse, what did you want to say with regard to our friends, the McElroy brothers?

They have a saying about not yucking other people's yums.

And it is our feeling that

the plaintiffs are trying to yuck our yum.

Because this is something that we deeply enjoy, and there are ways to enjoy it without necessarily impacting them as negatively as it does currently, without actually making us RP less or trying to take that enjoyment away from it.

Do you believe that they're doing, they're yucking your yum maliciously?

Not maliciously.

You got their sincerity when they say it bothers them?

Yes, absolutely.

Let the record show that I'm speechless.

I'm supposed to be delivering my verdict, but since you have made quite an accusation, Nacho, hot dog, how do you respond to this charge?

That you don't think it bothers us when.

No, I thought I said it does bother you.

Oh, I thought you said you doubted their sincerity.

No.

Oh, I misspoke.

I understand.

Human English isn't your first language.

I apologize.

He meant to say he's glad his wife is unhappy.

Mr.

Synapse, if you do not, in fact, doubt their sincerity, that they are stressed on the part of hot dog, dismayed on the part of nacho,

then you must acknowledge that your behavior has effect upon others.

Look,

I'm wearing custom-made judicial robes.

I'm not going to lie to you.

I've been to some murder mystery dinners.

I've spoken in some fake English accents.

I've done a little bit of it.

I know what it feels like to be out there with your friends pretending to be other people, especially when you're age-appropriate, 12, 13 years old.

But it is your yum.

I do not deny it.

I do not deny you're having fun.

But I hope to present to you and your Admiral a point of view outside of your own

realm of imagination.

When you are having fights over chain of command and whether or not you are on leave, I'm kind of into that because I like a process fight.

I feel it's like, yeah, right, exactly.

You can't really go around that.

And I think, frankly, Captain Greg, I thought you were right to demote Mr.

Synapse

and relieve him from duty.

He was was out of control.

He's got a lot of work to do.

What troubles me

is the thermos.

That is intrinsically weird

and contextually very troubling.

to go to an island and then have a person of arbitrary authority demanding the kissing of any object based on orders alone, and that you, Captain Gregg,

would try to force Mr.

Synapse to kiss the thermos without even knowing why.

Without even questioning why.

It is, look, I am a rule follower by nature.

I'm an only child.

Of course I am.

But you can't follow every rule

without questioning.

That's how horrible human tragedy happens.

Did you kiss the thermos, Mr.

Synapse?

Never once.

I'm so glad you did not.

And I'm glad that I know, and I'm glad that you now know that that, sir, that is your yum.

That

is your yum.

Not the costume, not the computer game,

the weird sick games that you and the captain and the admiral are playing.

I will not interfere with those games.

Obviously, you're exploring something.

And yet I must also honor

the wishes of your crew members and your colleagues and your human spouses.

and friends.

That's a real Kobayashi Maru.

Don't, don't.

Don't.

It's not even a really good allegory.

Because it's not a Kobayashi Maru.

I know what's going to happen here.

When you are playing the game, you can play the game.

When you have stopped playing the game and Hot Dog and Nacho have reverted to their human forms, Megan and Rebecca, then you've got to stop it too.

You can go and play your own game somewhere else.

And indeed, I order you and the captain and the admiral and whatever other freaky officers that you hang out with

to go on a special weekend vacation of your own.

And I want there to be a thermos there.

And I want there to be some object to some game that is going to get worked out.

I want you to be stranded on an alien prison planet together.

I don't know.

I don't know who's going to write this narrative, Jesse Thorne.

You know what?

Maybe ask Griffin McElroy to do it for you.

Yeah, that's right.

Griffin McElroy is going to write an adventure for the three of you to go off on your own in the woods of Canada to play.

And then if any of you come back, you'll have it out of your system.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge Sean Hodgman rules, that's all.

Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Rebecca, Meg, Jared, Greg, thanks for being on the Judge Sean Hodges so much.

I'm Emily Fleming.

I'm Jordan Morris.

And I'm Matt Lieb.

We are real comedy writers.

Real friends.

And real cheapskates.

On every episode of our podcast, Free With Ads, we ask, why pay for expensive streaming services when you can get free movies from apps with weird names?

Each week, we review the freest movies the internet has to offer.

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Cult classics like Point Break.

And holy sh, what did I just watch?

Classics like Teen Witch.

Tune in every week as we take a deep dive into the internet's bargain bin.

Every Tuesday on maximumfun.org or your favorite pod plays.

The Flop House is a podcast where we watch a bad movie and then we talk about it.

Robert Shaw in Jaws and they're trying to figure out how to get rid of the ghoulies and he scratches his nails and goes, I'll get you a ghoulie.

He's just standing above the toilet with a heartburn.

No, I'm just looking forward to you going through the other ways in which Wild Wild West is historically inaccurate.

You know how much movies cost nowadays when you add in your popped corn and your bagel bites and your cheese critters?

You can't go wrong with a Henry Cavill Mustache.

Here it is Henry Camill Mustache is the only supplier.

The Flop House.

New episodes every Saturday.

Find it at maximumfun.org.

Well, folks, it's now the segment of the show that we call Swift Justice.

And this is where we're going to hear three cases in quick succession.

And I think we're going to need to put a timer on this one, Jesse Porn.

I think the timer is going to be 10 minutes.

10 minutes?

Holy sh ⁇ .

Three minutes and 33 seconds per case.

That's how it works.

There's 100 seconds in a minute.

10 minutes and 10 minutes.

Three minutes and 33 seconds per case.

That's correct.

You understand.

It's in Canada.

It's metric.

All right.

Bring us the first case, please.

James and Annie.

James files files suit against his girlfriend, Annie.

Annie has two cats and keeps the litter box in her bedroom.

When James visits her in Toronto, he doesn't like to smell the cat box when he's trying to sleep.

He wants her to move it into the living room.

Annie thinks if she moves it into the living room, it will smell up the entire apartment.

All right, James and Annie, who brings this case before me seeking justice?

That's me.

That would be James wearing an extremely handsome yellow flannel shirt.

What is the the brand of that shirt?

Norse Projects.

Norse Projects.

It almost looks like Loblaw's no-name yellow.

Do you know what I mean?

I don't mind buzz marketing that because I want to get one of those for myself.

In fact, I find in your favor.

This is...

What?

No, I'm sorry.

What is the nature of your dispute?

You got kitty litter in Annie's bedroom.

Is that correct?

Yes.

All right.

And Annie, why do you keep the kitty litter in the bedroom?

Do you only have that one room?

So the apartment's pretty small, and the living room is very linked to the kitchen.

So if it's in the living room, then the kitchen smells like poop, and then it's like you're eating poop.

And

I don't want to eat poop.

No one wants to eat poop, Annie, except maybe for Captain Greg and Mr.

Synapse and Admiral Dave as part of some alien ritual.

I don't know.

Or just if their commanding officer told them to.

That's right.

Have you tried cleaning the litter bunks?

Yes, I clean it three times a day.

Three times a day?

They poop a lot.

How many cats?

Just two.

200 cats.

Two cats, and what are their names?

Leo and Lucy.

Leo and Lucy, I bet you they're cute, right?

They're very cute.

Yes.

They're what kind of cats are they?

Just kind of.

What are their colors?

Normal.

One of them is orange, the other one's a gray, kind of calico.

She's very small.

Orange, you say.

A little bit, kind of like James' shirt.

Yes.

James has a little bit of fur on his face.

He's got a little bit of a cat-like demeanor to him.

For sure.

Is this cosplay?

I wish.

Whoa.

Do you share this apartment or is it your apartment?

It's my apartment.

James lives in a different city, so you have to visit.

London.

London, Ontario?

Fantastic.

How far away is that?

About two and a half hours.

Do you hate these cats, James?

These cats are adorable.

I love them.

I just hate their poop.

Sure.

Do you have an open litter box?

It's covered.

There's like a cover on it.

Have you taken the cats to a veterinarian?

Yes, many times.

About why

their poop smells so bad.

Yes, I have.

Because you're changing the litter three times a day.

That is quite a bit.

Yeah.

Are you using litter?

Maybe that's the problem.

I do use litter.

No, I just use rags.

Why?

Litter?

No, I just use the poop of smaller animals.

What did the veterinarian say?

The veterinarian said, feed them the special food.

Yeah, that's what they always say.

And guess what?

I'm going to sell it to you, says the veterinarian.

Yeah.

So the choice is, in Annie's life, either the bedroom stinks or the whole house stinks.

Is there not a closet?

Do you own a rent?

I rent.

You rent.

Is there not some solution?

You should not.

One should not live

in if possible as an adult

one should not sleep in the same room as a refrigerator or a box

in my opinion right so so this is bad I mean it's the room with the best ventilation we put it in the bathroom before and it was disgusting.

I couldn't go in there at all because there's no vents.

Have you tried feeding the special food to the cats?

Yes, I did do that.

Any difference?

I mean, their poops were less watery and they didn't leave them around the house, but they still.

I'll remind you: this is a

family podcast.

How old are the cats?

A year and two months.

Oh, my goodness.

This is a big issue for the rest of your

whole relationship for many years.

Yeah.

You can't.

This is not normal.

Have you had cats before?

Yes.

Who here thinks this is normal?

Your scoring is not required.

Total silence told the tale I needed telling.

John, I know from a friend of the podcast, Mary Roach's book, Gulp, Adventures in the Alimentary Canal, that the entire purpose of the pet food industry is to create food that you can, A, trick pets into eating.

Yes.

B, will give them the nutrition they need.

Right.

And C, will produce relatively odorous and odorless and consistent inconsistency leavings.

Like that is the one thing that is non-compromisable in the pet food recipe making.

Major industries are devoted to those three principles.

Odorless poop, consistent poop, cats eating it.

These cats are only into one of those things.

Yeah.

They've figured out how to break the system with the rest.

James, how does it make you feel when Annie won't move the cat box?

Well, it feels bad to be playing second fiddle to a box of kitty litter.

How often do you visit?

About once every two weeks.

And how long do you stay?

About three or four days.

All right.

When you're there,

the cat box has to be out of the bedroom.

When you're not there, the cat box can be right there next to you in bed if you want, Annie.

But I do encourage you to continue to work with your veterinarian to find out what's going on with Lucy and Leo because you're doing everything right and they're pooping everything wrong.

This is the sound of a gap.

James and Annie.

Please welcome Leah and Johnny.

Leah's roommate, Johnny, insists on displaying a graduation photo of his friend Gavin in the entryway of their house.

In the photo, Gavin is sitting next to several cans of forloco, a board game called Loopin' Louie, and some sort of trophy.

Leah thinks the decorations in the house are classic, and this photo is ruining the vibe.

Johnny wants to keep the photo on display.

All right.

Leah and Johnny, welcome.

Leah, you seek justice before this court.

You want this picture of Gavin taken out of the entryway.

Is that correct?

That's correct.

And it's funny because without showing the photo,

we do have a photo of the photo.

And when Jesse said Gavin, I presume that the photo went on screen because the entire audience went, oh,

because it's a cuckoo photo, for sure.

But the photo wasn't being displayed.

I can only presume that the entire audience already knows Gavin

and already knows this famous photo.

Yeah, is Gavin like

Ernest from the Earnest movies in Canada or like...

In any case, let's take a look now at the photo in question.

So there is Gavin.

Also wearing Canadian judicial robes, it would seem.

Johnny,

what is Gavin wearing?

He's wearing judicial robes.

Why does he get...

He has red epaulettes, and I don't have red epaulettes, and I paid a lot of money for my robes.

He's an admiral, Johnny.

I know.

I assume that's based on the university.

Did you and Gavin go to law university together?

We did.

Okay, and who is he to you in your life?

He's a good friend of mine.

He's a mess of a human.

Makes me laugh.

In the photo, he has four cans of four loco.

Yeah.

A game, Loop and Louie.

What's that?

That's a drinking game we played in Los Angeles.

Drinking game.

All right.

And you have it.

Oh, here's a close-up version of it.

Yeah.

And Gavin is looking very seriously at the camera.

Very handsome person.

Is he here tonight?

No, he's a good friend.

In the Yukon.

Yeah.

He's in the Yukon.

Yeah, that's how we got the Fort Loco.

It's illegal in Canada.

Oh, okay.

So.

He's in Yukon now, and you had him displayed with some candles as though it were a shrine.

You guys share a home, right, Leah?

Yeah.

Right.

Do you co-own the home?

No, we both rent, and we have another roommate, another lawyer.

Another lawyer is there.

And what does the other roommate feel about this?

She also went to law school with Gavin, so she's all for it.

Oh, so you're overruled by the roommates in this?

By numbers, but not by Gavin.

Yes, that's what I meant.

I mean.

Did you go to law school?

You didn't go to law school with these.

No.

What do you do in your your life?

I'm a writer.

You're a writer.

I was moving back to Toronto, and there happened to be an opening at the perfect moment, and I knew the other roommate, Caitlin, and so I moved in.

She's an old friend.

So these attorneys took you in at a time of need, put a roof over your head in Toronto, Canada, and the first thing you say is, get Gavin out of here.

No memories of Gavin.

I mean, I'm not saying that Gavin needs to leave the house, but maybe Gavin could be relegated to one of their rooms and not be the first thing that you see when you enter the house.

Why?

What would you put there?

I mean, there's like a nice framed New Yorker cover there already.

We could just move it to the center.

Oh, you already have the New Yorker cover there.

Yeah, I see.

Okay.

Well,

no.

They have out-voted you in the house.

And I will not, sadly, allow the picture of Gavin to be replaced by a cliched-framed New Yorker cover.

I mean, that feels bad.

That you might as well be replacing it with nothing at all.

I mean, even if I were to side with you on the idea that somehow your taste outranked their majority, the suggestion of a framed New Yorker cover, unfortunately, undid your case completely.

And I'm talking as a person who had a bunch of framed New Yorker covers on my wall when I was 14 years old.

I feel you.

It's very elegant.

But this is cooler than that.

And plus you have no standing.

I apologize,

and I look forward to the day, as I'm sure you do, when you get out of this weird house.

Leah and Johnny.

Please welcome to the stage Jorrell and David.

Jorrell brings this case against his father, David.

Jorrell started posting videos on David's YouTube account when he was 12 years old, before he was old enough to sign up for his own account.

They both still have access to the account, which includes the monitor DPOP.

Jorrell claims his online presence is now tied to the account name, and he wants full ownership of the YouTube account.

David does not want to give up the account.

Young man,

your name is pronounced Jorrel or Jorl?

Jorl.

Jorrell, as in the father of Superman.

That is correct.

I see.

And David, you're literally Lex Luther.

Let the record show that David is completely bald.

Why are you not suing your father for giving you that name?

Because it's an amazing name.

Yes.

My mom could sue him

for giving me that name, but

she was okay with it somehow.

It's a pretty awesome name.

But it is not hyphenated.

That's what's cool about it.

It's a sort of a private joke.

Yeah.

Right.

And why David Jorl and not Cal El?

That'll be my solution.

Well,

for the record.

This is a long game selective breeding experiment.

So that you, David, can have a grandson named Cal El.

I can't wait.

Cal El will marry a woman named Lois.

You've got it all planned out.

Yes, don't you?

Do you have any dinosaur skeletons or marriages to Elvis' children or other Nicholas Cage things in your life?

I wish that I had his copy of action number one.

You are a Superman fan.

I did collect comics as a child and I still have some.

Good.

And a documentarian,

that is your profession

and your vocation.

And you started this YouTube account to post what?

Well, to post

my things.

Oh, sure.

Yeah.

And I should.

I like saucy Jorl.

I should point out that the bailiff mentioned that it started when he was 12 years old.

This actually started when he was about seven years old.

And so he was far too young.

I asked you a question.

What were you putting on the YouTube account?

At that time, not too much but if something comes if something comes up in if something comes up in my uh business as a as a director as a producer and so to be clear when you say at that time not that much when you say at that time you mean in the past 12 years

when he was seven i wasn't putting up uh very much but currently so let me understand it's 12 years ago you have a son seven-year-old son named jorel that is correct you're you make documentaries Yes.

You work in film.

Yes.

You say, I'm going to start a YouTube channel, but I've got nothing to put on it.

All I do is make movies.

Oh, well.

My movies are generally on television.

No, I understand.

I want to take you back to the distant past.

Yes.

About 35 years ago, I said, what did you put on the YouTube channel?

And you said, not that much.

And I said, but what specifically?

And you said, some things.

Is there a reason you don't want to tell me?

This YouTube channel started about 13 years ago, and at that time, I was not putting things on.

I feel like I'm talking to a congressional Republican

about whether it's okay

to force a foreign leader to investigate a political rival.

The answer to the question is that I put on some of my work that I've produced and directed.

That's perfectly reasonable for an adult professional to do.

But then all of a sudden, seven-year-old Jorrell comes along.

What does he start posting

on your channel?

When he was seven years old, he was doing

things about his Pokemon cards and his Yu-Gi-Oh!

All of this is wrong.

Yes.

All right, Jorel.

It is the job of the child to rewrite the history of the parent.

Go on.

So I posted, as many kids do

horrible sketches that were terrible because I was like seven.

Yeah.

And

my father did not post anything.

You're saying it was abandoned property.

It was abandoned property.

It was mine to use.

I had all the information.

I was using it.

He touched it very, very little.

So you developed this brand.

Yeah, and not only the brand, but the large corporation account, I don't know if I can say their name, but the account

Google.

Yeah.

So the Google account that it's associated with.

You created Google?

So

the Google account that's associated with has like a drive option and lets you store files and stuff.

And I use that all the time.

And I've been using it for like five years.

And all of my schoolwork is on there, all of like other sort of work is on there.

And my father has about zero things on there.

So it is my account.

You're saying in practice it is your account.

It is

in all but registered name.

In all but the fact that he technically created it and clicked the button.

It is my account and I'm the sole user.

So why not David just say to Joral this is yours now and start a new

because you've not developed this brand.

I have looked into YouTube and it is possible to keep the same youtube channel and change the name my request is that the name is changed because you see i am d pop

and so you're trying to protect your own brand the name of the channel and i i brought some photographic evidence all right let's take a look

This is it's hard to see.

It's blurry.

This is me at 16 years old and that's a drawing that I did and in the bottom right corner you'll see that I've signed a D Pop.

I've been using the name D Pop in my art and in my music ever since I've been that age or even younger.

So it's a name that I professionally use.

So for those of you who can't see this at the moment,

you can go to the Judge John Hodgman page at maximumfund.org or Instagram at JudgeJohn Hodgman.

This is David as a young man with a lot more hair showing a cartoon that he made of

a sort of

almost Roy Lichtensteinian

cartoony style, square-jawed man driving his date, staring directly into the camera, saying it's going to be one of those nights.

And it's signed in musical notation, D-pop.

This is an incredible document of a time.

And who is your inspiration for this art?

You know what?

I haven't looked at this picture in a very long time, and then I dug it out trying to find the earliest example I could.

And I was looking at it and thinking, what the hell was it?

I have no idea.

It was a long time ago.

Would you be willing to stipulate that the picture is slightly slightly unsettling?

That's what makes it good.

The illustration is unsettling, and then the photograph of you holding it

is unsettling.

It has a Cindy Sherman quality to it.

I'll take that.

Yes, yes.

There's something.

Well, no,

the thing is, you didn't take that photo.

Someone else took it.

That's someone else's work of art, David.

The question of whether you have a shadow surrounding your mouth or a Sebastian Gorka-style Van Dyke on your face.

It's also deeply upsetting.

We all make mistakes when we're young.

Which is what we're going to determine today.

Next piece of evidence you wanted to show?

Now, this is the actual incorporation of my

incorporated company, which, as you can see, is called D-Pop Productions Incorporated.

Yes, and I can tell that it is actual.

It is bilingual.

It is from Canada.

It is real.

But why do I care about this?

Why?

My point is, he can keep the account, but he should change the name.

So

because I do post my professional work on YouTube, and I am posting currently some of my professional work on YouTube on this channel because it's the only one I have now, and it's the only one that I have that's got the name Depop, which is the name that is hard to get.

And I would like to keep that.

Okay.

Joro, what are you posting on this channel now as a 19-year-old adult?

Nothing, but I am using irrest by the way.

But it's YouTube that's important to me.

It's the fact that it's tied to this Google account, which I use every single day all the time and has all my files.

Yeah, no, I understand.

And you cannot change that name.

Are you, as this background research suggests, a musician and rapper?

Yes.

Are you posting videos of yourself rapping on this YouTube account?

No, I created a separate YouTube account, which is very easy to do, very simple, and requires no effort at all.

I created a different YouTube account

using my artist email and my artist name.

And Jarrell, what's your artist name?

Well, the account is called Shonen Rap Music.

It is very nerdy, and I make raps.

Are you prepared to rap at this time?

I can try.

Okay,

can you please drop the beat, Jeff?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Look at me.

I'm representing the Star Fleet.

I go beyond the darkness like Simon Pegg.

I write without frost because that's today.

I went on JJ Ho.

I say so, like, oh, I play hover.

No, my say overs.

Oh, I go back if my overalls are above me.

I never want to say that Gene Gray is amazing.

Hey, please, I didn't rhyme that, but I just want to mention Dark Phoenix because it's so cool and everybody knows it.

Well, sorry, not the movie, just in case you were wondering.

But I'm here plundering like a pirate.

R.

Wonder thing that this is a family podcast, so I'm not going to swear or say the F word or S word or SH word or the others that are associated.

But I'm over here going back and that D-pop incorporated doesn't really matter because you see D-pop can be used in many names.

And there are many accounts using D-pop already.

The whole account had to use other numbers.

So is he really the only D-pop?

No, everybody can be D-pop.

I can be D-pop.

And see, when I rap to this beat-pop, everybody knows that I can be D-pop, and he can be D-pop.

And it's my account, so you should rule in my favor.

Oh, he went in, son!

Jorel went in!

What?

I didn't even tell him we were gonna do that!

Yeah, I thought I was gonna embarrass him in front of his dad and a thousand people.

Jor El.

Yes.

That was amazing.

Joer El

Look,

I don't understand what you're fighting over.

It's boring.

It is.

It is my inclination as a dad that when some dad brings in articles of incorporation

to rule against him automatically,

just to remind him, your time is over.

Your paperwork isn't going to protect you from what's coming up behind you.

And you just heard it.

Jorrell just killed it.

He did.

And I know, you know, here's the thing.

You, D-pop,

fine.

Legally, it's yours.

I don't know if you want to use that name or not.

You want to use that name?

You do not want to use that name.

I just want the account because it has all my name.

Yeah, of course.

It's your account, eminent domain on the account.

Go make your own Depop thing and try to stay relevant.

Your baby boys in a spaceship to Earth.

Yeah.

Superpowers.

I find in Jorrell's favor.

Jorrell and David.

Thus ended an important evening in Canadian history.

It's me, John Hodgman, again, picking up the outro.

Our thanks to all the litigants who shared their disputes with us.

This episode was recorded by Jeff Bird and produced by Hannah Smith.

Jesus Ambrosio is our editor.

You can follow us on Twitter.

You know this.

I'm at Hodgman, H-O-D-G-M-A-N.

Jesse's at Jesse Thorne, J-E-S-S-E-T-H-O-R-N.

Hashtag your judge John Hodgman tweets.

Hashtag J-J-H-O.

And we want to thank Robbie Newell for naming this week's episode.

Oh, and we're on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman.

That's literally at Judge John Hodgman, all one word, all small letters.

And I personally am on Instagram at John Hodgman, all small letters, all one word.

Make sure to follow us there, here, everywhere for evidence and other fun stuff.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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