Occam's Frasier

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Occam's Frasier.

Emily files suit against her friend Aaron.

Emily and Aaron are regulars at a bar which they affectionately refer to as their cheers.

Recently, they tried to decide which cheers characters they are.

Emily wants to be Martin Crane.

Aaron believes that Emily cannot be Martin Crane because he is a character from Frasier.

Emily disagrees and asks the court to rule that Martin Crane exists in the world of cheers.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Albania, Albania, you border on the Adriatic.

Your terrain is mountainous and rocky, and your chief export is chrome.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear the litigants in.

Emily Aaron, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that if he were a Cheers character, he would be Harry Anderson?

Yes.

Yeah, I do.

From Dave's World?

Okay, Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Harry the Hat, deep cuts, deep cuts from season one of Cheers.

Were we ever so young?

Emily and Aaron, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom?

Emily, will you start?

I originally was going to go with another deep cut spin-off, but nothing is coming to mind.

So I am going to say medallion status.

Medallion status.

True Stories from Secret Rooms, the new book by me, John Hodgman, available now wherever you buy books in all electronic, audio, and printed forms.

Bit.ly slash medallion status.

All capital letters, all one word.

Hashtag always be plugging.

What was the obscure spin-off that you wanted to reference?

Booker, which is a spin-off from 21 Jump Street.

Oh.

That is an obscure spin-off.

Wasn't there going to be a Rhea Perlman?

No, there was the Tortelles was a spin-off of Cheers.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

I knew that there was an obscure obscure spin.

And did that actually, I know they shot a pilot.

Did that go to series at some point?

I am not sure.

It's listed on Wikipedia, so that's enough.

Literally, this is coming from someone who sent me in the evidence a link to a definition of retcon.

This is going to get deep.

It aired for four months, John, in 1987.

That's got to be several, several episodes.

All right.

Aaron, what's your guess?

I had, you know, something up my sleeve for to inject some Canadian content into this podcast.

Right, because you are British Columbians, is that correct?

Yes, correct, yeah.

But that really strikes me as like a They Might Be Giants kids song, one of their like pop songs about, you know, Albania, I guess.

Like from one of their many kids' albums, like No.

Yeah, yeah, or Here Come the One Two Threes.

Or Here Come the One Two Threes, right?

Interesting, yeah.

Yeah.

And Emily and Aaron, I wasn't listening when Jesse introduced the case.

What is this about?

It's about cheers and cheers.

Oh,

interesting.

Any of you want to guess cheers?

Yes, no?

Good.

No.

Because if you did, then that answer would be right.

Come on, you guys.

What if one of you had said, I think it's cheers?

Because like you knew it, right?

Because you watch cheers, you love cheers, or at least one of you loves cheers.

One of you loves cheers enough not to degrade it.

You're talking about cheers in the bar all the time because it reminds you of cheers.

And you're like, I've seen every episode and specifically you've seen episode number 16 in season three, Teacher's Pet, where coach Ernie Pantuso, played, of course, by the late Nicholas Colasanto, explains to Sam Malone that the way he learned geography was by making up songs about it.

Yeah.

That's good.

If you had said all of those things, do you know what I would have said to you?

Aaron, Emily, I would have said, you're still wrong

because I changed a line.

Oh, I have sung that song to myself probably once a month since I was 19 years old.

Since the day my dear friend and perhaps yours, Jonathan Colton in college, said that that was his favorite joke from Cheers when Coach sang about Albania and it closed with, and your chief export is chrome.

And I had not realized until this moment that Jonathan Colton had punched that song up because the original line was,

Your land is mostly mountainous.

He realized that that did not track with The Saints Go Marching In.

So he changed it, whether knowingly or not, to a much better line.

Your terrain is mountainous and rocky, and your chief export is chrome.

I think about it at least once a month, and I laugh to myself every time.

Do you know why?

Because Cheers is a wonderful television show.

It is unstoppably great.

One revisits it from time to time, wondering, do I misremember?

Perhaps this has aged and certainly is aged in certain ways in terms of the fashions people are wearing, in terms of the wild lack of diversity in the cats, which is astonishing.

And yet comedically, it stands up.

It's beautiful.

It's a thing of beauty.

It's something you want.

to keep precious in one's life by not making provocative claims about it.

Emily, you brought this case before the court.

What is the issue?

I brought this issue to the court because we spent a lot of time at a bar in Victoria called Sherwood, Sherwood Cafe and Bar.

It's kind of the cheers of Victoria, British Columbia.

Yeah, I'm glad that you clarified that it was Sherwood Cafe and Bar for people who thought it was Sherwood Forest and Robbers.

Yeah, I mean, it's a common confusion.

We spent a lot of time there.

We know a lot of the regulars.

And the day that we had this discussion was one particular day where a lot of people we knew.

Hang on, hang on.

I just want to verify.

Does everyone know your name?

Oh, I get yay.

At your local hangout, Sherwood, Brad, and Ray Romano.

Yes, yes.

Many, many people there know my name.

When you walk into, they go, Emily.

Sometimes.

It has happened.

It has happened.

Yeah.

This is your local place where you like to hang.

And you like to hang around with Aaron, who is your friend?

Yes.

My best bud.

Your best bud in Canada and maybe the world.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'd say that's true.

A bar is a place where people hang out and they make bar bets.

They make proposition bets, like, can I balance this match on my nose?

They come up with like weird things to discuss.

Does a machine gun count as a robot?

I mean, this is where what bars are for.

And you got into a discussion, and what was the nature of this discussion?

We were sitting there, and a lot of people were saying hello to us that day.

So we...

By name, it has been established.

Yes.

Yes.

And we were saying, man, this feels a lot like Cheers, because in Cheers is a place where everybody knows your name.

So we decided to have a conversation about what Cheers character would you be.

And so Aaron asked me, what Cheers character would you be?

This sounds like a great thing to do with friends, a great game to play.

I don't see how it could go wrong.

Aaron, how did it go wrong?

Well, yeah, almost immediately.

Emily decided that she wanted to be Martin Crane, who is Frasier's dad from the TV show Frasier.

So I had a bit of a problem with that.

Okay, now, people who are listening who don't understand Canadian,

I had a bit of a problem with that.

Means that Aaron flipped the table over.

Or should have.

Why, Aaron?

The analogy of the bar being our cheers.

Martin Crane being a character that has never been to Cheers doesn't work.

We will touch on that later.

The point you wish to make for those of you who do not know, and which you are characteristically too polite and roundabout to make,

is that Martin Crane, the character of Martin Crane, who plays Frasier Crane's dad on Fraser,

did not originate on the show Cheers.

Frasier Crane, the character of the stuffy, uppity, cardigan-wearing Bostonian professor my role model

the character the character not the actor

a lot of appreciation fascination with sadness for empathy with political disagreement with Kelsey Grammar think he's very talented I'm talking about the character Frasier Crane saw a lot of myself and him growing up in Boston he

was definitely on cheers but Martin Crane Definitely not on cheers.

Emily, you know this.

You know this.

To quote Paul F.

Tompkins, you know this.

That's not a king hat.

It's a crown.

A crown.

Why?

What are you doing here, Emily?

First of all, why are you...

Let's just say for a moment that Martin Crane is on cheers.

Let's just create a fantasy world.

Let's step through this wardrobe into this Narnia that you've fashioned for us.

The Cheersiverse.

Yeah,

the expanded Cheersiverse in which Martin Crane is part of this universe, which I think is the case you're going to try to make, but let's not even try to, let's not even get there yet.

That's why I'm getting weird spreadsheets about, you know, the history of retconning and stuff.

Yeah.

A lot of homework came in the evidence.

Do not appreciate it.

Tell me, though, why you are Martin Crane.

I feel like I identify with Martin Crane because I think that he's pretty unpretentious.

He's down to earth.

He doesn't want people to fuss over him.

And he pretends to be tough, but he's actually soft deep down inside, which I feel like is a trait that I share as well.

And Aaron, Emily's your best bud.

I mean, setting aside this obvious dispute, do you think that her identification with Martin Crane has some

truth to it?

Sure, yeah, yeah.

By that criteria, yeah, for sure.

By the criteria of knowing your friend and seeing her and letting her identify herself the way she sees fit.

Yeah, absolutely that.

And also just the things she laid out, I think, are traits that she definitely shares with Martin Crane.

Yeah.

You don't have any beef with her self-identification with Martin Crane.

It is merely this issue of whether Martin Crane belongs in the Cheersverse.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Just out of curiosity, Aaron, did you get around to choosing your Cheers character before you stormed out of this place in a huff and

set Victoria, British Columbia on fire?

Not in that conversation.

No, it pretty much

started and ended with Martin Crane.

Nothing else could continue past Martin Crane.

Were there other people here?

I mean, how many people were in this group when this happened?

It's just the two of us.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was just us.

So, what happened when she said this?

Did you walk out on her?

No, no, I just, I think I just was taken aback and just kind of like, absolutely not.

Yeah.

I just denied that that was an acceptable choice.

If she had not totally derailed the conversation with this obviously provocative choice, what Cheers' character would you say you relate to?

I think I also relate to Frasier in a way.

I think

I have a bit of that, like, I don't want to say pretentious, but you know, I like the finer things.

I do actually find myself in situations like at a bar listening to people's problems, you know, trying to help them through stuff.

So I feel like I identify with Freighter in that way.

Yeah.

And here you are presented with a psychological case that is beyond your understanding.

It says here, Aaron, that you work as a freelance software developer.

You're 31 years old.

You live in Victoria, British Columbia.

You love to ride your bike, but not so much that you need Spandex.

Fantastic.

And you also go by Sweetie.

Is that true?

Yes.

Yeah.

Well, sweetie, tell me about all the finer things.

Wait, sweetie like you would call a

child beauty pageant contestant or

sweetie with a D like you would call a turn of the 20th century baseball player.

Oh, wow.

No, it's with a T.

It's technically Lil Sweetie, L-I-L apostrophe.

Why do they call you sweetie?

Short version, friends went on a road trip.

They came back as a rap group.

I wasn't on the road trip and I wanted to be included.

I don't care.

I don't want to hear about a Canadian road trip fake rap group.

Come on, I'm going to go to the bathroom.

Which of your friends is snow?

Let's take a quick recess.

We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at maximumfund.org.

And they are all your favorites.

If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic.

Just go to maximumfund.org/slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Quince.

Jesse, the reviews are in.

My new super soft hoodie from Quince that I got at the beginning of the summer is indeed super soft.

People cannot stop touching me and going, that is a soft sweatshirt.

And I agree with them.

And it goes so well with my Quince overshirts that I'm wearing right now, my beautiful cotton Piquet overshirts and all the other stuff that I've gotten from Quince.

Why drop a fortune on basics when you don't have to?

Quince has the good stuff.

High quality fabrics, classic fits, lightweight layers for warm weather.

and increasingly chilling leather, all at prices that make sense.

Everything I've ordered from Quince has been nothing but solid, and I will go back there again and buy that stuff with my own money.

John, you know what I got from Quince?

I got this beautiful linen double flap pocket shirt that's sort of like an adventure shirt.

And I also got a merino wool polo shirt.

Oh, it's like a it's like a mid-gray.

Looks good underneath anything, perfect for traveling.

Because with merino wool, it like, it basically rejects your stink.

You know what I mean?

It's a stink-rejecting technology, John.

It says, get thee behind me, stink.

Yeah, exactly.

And, you know, honestly, even if I do need to wash it, I can just wear it in the shower when I'm traveling and then

roll it in a towel and it's pretty much ready to go.

Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes.

Quince has wonderful clothes for women, men, kids, babies.

They have travel stuff.

They have gifts.

They have quilts and bedspreads.

They've got everything.

Go over there and find out for yourself.

Keep it classic and cool with long-lasting staples from Quince.

Go to quince.com slash JJ Ho for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.

That's q-u-i-n-ce-e dot com slash jjho to get free shipping and 365-day returns.

Quince.com slash jjho.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast, also brought to you this week by Made In.

So, you know that Made In makes the pots and pans and griddles and woks and more that pro-chefs like Tom Calicio use every day at their homes and in their restaurant.

But they are also used by non-pro-chefs like me.

You know, I spent the summer smashing those burgers on my big carbon steel griddle I've been talking about all the time.

But fall is on the horizon and it's time to stop smashing and start braising and stewing and roasting vegetables in your carbon steel pan or slow-cooking chili in your made-in stainless steel stock pot.

Or maybe you've got a kid who's going to college.

Maybe they're going to UNC Chapel Hill.

Shop Made In's collegiate collection and you can send your kid a UNC Dutch oven so they can host one of those classic tar heel dorm room pot roast parties.

I'm sure they exist.

Whatever you want to make in your kitchen though, you can make it, you can serve it, you can savor it in Made Inn.

From cookware to tableware to glassware to to pro-grade knives, Made In is dedicated to making exactly what demanding chefs are looking for.

The carbon steel cookware is the best of cast iron and stainless clad.

We've talked about it before.

It gets super hot.

It's also rugged enough for grills or open flames, and you can season it to a non-stick surface.

Really special stuff.

And all of the Made In products are sold online, so you get professional grade cookware for a lot less money than other high-end brands.

If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common.

They're made in, made in.

For full details, visit madeincookware.com.

That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com and tell them that Judge John Hodgman sent you.

Court is back in session.

Let's return to the courtroom.

for more justice.

They made you an honorary member of their fake road trip rap group and they gave you the name Little Sweetie?

Yeah, my friend actually did it in kind of an ironic meaning.

Oh, really?

Yeah, he thought I was kind of cranky all the time and he called me Little Sweetie.

Emily, is he a little sweetie?

I think that it's accurate in that he is cranky sometimes and so it's funny to call him sweetie.

Emily, if he were a cheers character, which would he be?

And I beg you to choose a cheers character just because I just don't want to go off on another tangent yet.

I do think that Frazier is an accurate choice for him.

And Emily, you work in the tech industry and you play trumpet and a band and you love reality television.

I love these little bios that I've been getting.

This is fantastic.

It's like, what a life, what a life up there.

And you're both 31 years old, just hanging and playing trumpet and giving each other nicknames and you're having a good time, but you're young.

How did Cheers come into your life and how long have you been watching it?

And what does it mean to you?

I would say that Cheers is relatively new in my life.

I've only watched it in the last year since it came on to like TV streaming service here we have called Crave, which is like Netflix, but just different stuff that Netflix doesn't have.

So I've been watching it, yeah, in the last year.

Yeah, I think like my association with it is really kind of just the good vibes of like a cool community of people who aren't, who are just like friends in that space, which is very relatable, like in the Sherwood kind of space that we spend time in, but also Erin and I know each other from working at a coffee shop before.

We worked together for three years as priestas, and it was a very similar kind of environment.

And it was just nice having people kind of roll roll through that you would see for like brief periods of the day.

And sometimes they would come back a couple of times.

So I just love that environment, I guess.

Would you say that Sherwood has the quality of being

sort of a smaller city with a kind of an underdog baseball team and a weird sort of clash of a long-standing working class culture, but also a strong and very snobby university culture?

Would you say that Wade Boggs ever visit and does visits and does a surprisingly credible job for a third baseman?

I think you could say that.

Yeah, would you say that Sherwood might be the provincial capital of a commonwealth in an area commonly known as New England in the northwestern part of the American continent known as Canada?

Yeah, sure.

Okay.

I mean, you've watched Cheers.

Have you watched Frasier?

You had to have, or else you wouldn't have come up with this calumny.

Right.

Sweetie has watched more Frasier than I have.

I think he claims that he's seen every single episode of Frasier.

I have not seen every single episode of Frasier, but I've seen many episodes.

Enough to know that you feel like Martin Crane.

Yes.

The great character actor John Mahoney.

Well, there is someone who has seen, I dare say, every episode of Frasier.

She is our expert witness to help cast some light on this case.

She hosts a Frasier podcast.

It is the popular podcast called called I'm Listening, a Frasier podcast with name of the host.

I'm about to say it.

I really enjoy her.

I loved being on the podcast.

It's in its third season and the host of that podcast is named Anita Flores.

Anita, how are you?

I'm good.

I'm honored to be here as your expert.

So Anita, you host a podcast that is all about Frasier.

Tell me about it.

I'm listening.

It is all about Fraser.

However, not an episode-by-episode podcast.

It could be a whole episode about,

and there has been an entire episode about best episodes of Fraser that take place at dinner parties.

But then separately, I did an episode where I

reviewed Kelsey Grammer's autobiography So Far.

And I had somebody named Dan Chamberlain, who's very a talented writer and comedian, pretend to be Kelsey Grammer and read

my favorite excerpts from SoFar.

And then I went through them passage by passage.

He was on the show that I was on, right?

He's the Frasier impersonator.

That's correct, yes.

His incredible job.

He does an incredible job.

Absolutely incredible job.

And then, more in the future, in this season of my podcast, I'm doing an episode where, in my apartment that I already recorded with my oldest friend, who's a Frasier fan,

we get drunk off of sherry and eat Tos Saladin Scrambled Eggs and then talk about the origins of the song Toss Saladin Scrambled Eggs.

So

it's really

themed to Fraser.

Sure.

But there's no true rules other than there's just got to be something about the show or somebody in Fraser.

I'm going to do an episode, Best of Eddie episodes.

That's coming, but

I need to find a real Eddie fan.

So, Anita, people who wish to find you and find your podcast, they can find you on Twitter very easily.

You are at Anita Jutina, A-N-I-T-A, J-E-W-T-I-N-A, because in part you are a whole human being with a whole life to you, but you are Jewish and Latinx, correct?

That's correct.

And so Jutina rhymes with my name.

No, it doesn't.

I was going to say Anita rhymes with my name.

No, it doesn't.

But the, you know, almost,

it's got a ring to it, and nobody else I know online

has a handle, Anita Jutina.

But I asked you this when I was on the show.

Like, you know, when Frasier came on television, there was a lot for me to look at and relate to as a straight white male Ivy League educated who lived in Boston for a period of time.

What did this show about this effete snob in Seattle who interacted only with white people?

How did that speak to you growing up?

I did grow up in Connecticut during my formative years, so there's my first connection, all the white people.

And then, separately from that, more recently, I would say it is a fun show to watch

that doesn't really make me stressed out.

I'd say it's a very relaxing show

that in a way I like because I can't relate to it, except for the weird stuff, like just the fact that I'm really into Frasier, which already weirds some people out.

And then it makes me just, you know, it makes me feel like I can relate to Frasier and Niles, who people think are weird and, you know, speak with a weird transatlantic accent.

Yeah.

You know, John, the person in my life who loves Frasier the most

is a woman who, with her family, was a refugee from Peru and grew up like,

you know, as an actual refugee in the United States and living largely in motels for a big chunk of her life.

And the reason she loves Frasier so much is that very same thing that because of its nature, not just as a sitcom, but sitcom that's like not that zany

or like crazy, because it has such a gentle tone, it was the thing that she, and remains actually, the thing that she used to fall asleep.

It was, it's like the thing that comforted her.

I must ask you, you must connect me to her.

I am Peruvian.

My dad is from Peru.

I actually, I'm doing an episode of my podcast called Frasier Fans Around the World.

And I just, I just went to Mexico on vacation and I met my first Spanish-speaking native Oaxacan friend named Armando who I'm going to have on my podcast on that episode and we're going to talk about why he loves Frasier but that would be a dream to meet somebody from the country that my dad is from who also loves Fraser.

I mean Frasier is a typical Oaxacan thing like

chocolines or eating grasshoppers or moles, you know?

Yeah, it's right.

Well I think you put it you both put it very well, which is that, you know, while cheers is comforting because it reminds you of community, Frasier is comforting in its own way because it is tone, its tone is gentle.

It is almost like outside of its specific reference to Seattle or whatever else, this is like this pure gentle comedy of manners that is kind of like, you know, family dynamics that are pretty universal.

And it is just like comedy created in a lab to be perfect.

There's just something very charming and lovely about it.

And I really enjoy the podcast.

So everyone should go follow Anita at Anita Jutina and listen to the podcast.

But meanwhile, Anita, Anita, you've been listening to our two litigants, and I wonder if you have some observations.

I mean, you have seen every episode of Frasier, have you not?

I absolutely have, yes.

And with regard to Cheers,

have you dipped into every season?

You know more or less the storyline, or have you seen every episode of that show as well?

I know the storyline, but I definitely have not seen nearly as many episodes of Cheers as I have of Frasier.

That's fine.

There are a whole bunch of them, right?

They're all about the same.

That's the nature of the sitcom.

That's the nature of the sitcom.

That's what makes having a show in a bar frequented by regulars so comforting.

It's like, that's what it feels like to be able to go into the Sherwood Cafe and pub and see Lil Sweetie there and be like, Lil Sweetie.

But Anita, would you agree with me that the case has not yet been made?

That Martin Crane, one of the great characters in all sitcoms, is a character from Cheers.

I think I would agree that the case has not been made.

I mean, I have some notes, but

share your notes with us, won't you?

So, here are the notes.

Essentially, you know, I'm definitely a TV nerd, not just about Frasier, and I love the idea of worlds colliding,

you know, anytime there's talk of the good place being connected to Parks and Wreck, etc.

Now, in the case of Martin Crane, I have definitely watched episodes of Cheers that are connected to Frasier's storyline.

So I watched the episode that John Mahoney is on of Cheers.

And his character in Cheers, who has a one-episode arc, is named Cy

Flembeck.

Cy spelled S-Y.

And he plays an executive for an ad agency who creates jingles.

So you're saying John Mahoney before Frasier did a guest spot on Cheers as a a different character.

Do I understand that correctly?

That is correct, yes.

During the Diane years.

It was actually during the Kirstie Alley years, yes.

Oh, I guess that's just a different.

Oh, that's Kirsty Alley in profile.

She just had a lot of light on the back of her head.

Yeah, so he, and, you know, spoiler alert, he claims to be this great, you know, jingle, jingle guy.

And it turns out he just rips off already well-known songs and then changes the words to match.

Like Albania.

Yes.

Albania.

Exactly.

Now, here is my biggest qualm.

In this episode, there is a very brief exchange between Frazier and Sy.

It's very brief.

But separately, there are episodes of Frazier in which Martin Crane's musical talent is focused on.

There is an entire episode where he writes a jingle and sends it to Frank Sinatra because he wants to see if Frank Sinatra will sing it and he it's called Groovy Lady.

That's the song he writes.

Okay,

separately, separately, there's an episode of Frazier where Frazier has to write a jingle for his radio show.

His father comes up with a great original jingle that he does not use.

The point is, with

so you're saying that John Mahoney's character, Cy Flembeck, was actually Martin Crane in disguise.

Frazier didn't recognize him.

Absolutely not.

I am saying that for the purposes of personality and musical talent, these two characters are two different characters.

As in Martin Crane,

also a very nice and genuine guy.

Cy is a bit of a scam artist and not a talented jingle writer.

And for those reasons, I would say they are in two different universes.

Definitely.

So John Mahoney in Cheers is different from John Mahoney in Frazier.

And indeed, and I'm sure that, well, I know that this was brought up in some of the evidence.

Frazier in Cheers,

before Frazier was a TV show, Frazier the character described his father very differently from Martin Crane.

Tell me about that, Anita.

What did your research turn up there?

My research on wikipedia.com

turned up.

That's all.

That's where I go to.

Frazier, when speaking about his father on Cheers, said that his dad was dead and that he was a former research scientist.

Now, on the show, Frazier, they do bring that up and reference it in front of Martin.

And, you know, I think it's when Woody comes to town.

It's either Woody or Sam Malone come and visit Frazier and one of them says, oh, you said your dad was dead.

And yeah, and Martin's mad.

So they do recognize that.

There is a weird crossover there.

And that part is confusing.

They repair the continuity.

Yes, he has a very different profession in Cheers.

Not a cop, yes.

Yeah.

In Cheers, he is referenced as being a research scientist

that Frasier could never please.

And he was, and quote, I'm getting this from the homework evidence Emily sent in.

I think this is you, Emily, who sent this in, right?

Yeah, that's right.

Right, this piece of dialogue.

He died before I had a chance to realize he was right, and I never got to tell him.

It's funny, isn't it?

And Woody goes, Yeah, it's a good one.

All right, Dr.

Crane.

John, I I think you've just unlocked a whole new career path for yourself.

You've been playing all these smarty mustache creeps, and you should be playing Indiana dummies.

Oh, boy, oh, boy.

I'll do anything to be on cheers, you guys.

Like, what, Iris to, I'll save this for the verdict.

I'll save it for the verdict.

I just have a whole, I have a whole feel about it.

John, all I want in the world is to be Paul on cheers.

Yeah.

Just the guy that they use when they need to throw, they've got a line that they need to have, but a few too many characters are off screen at that moment.

They need somebody at the bar to say something.

That's what I was saying.

Why aren't we doing this?

The rest of the time, I'm just sitting there possibly drinking a real beer,

just hanging out.

So people who don't know, there are many famous characters on cheers.

You got Sam, you got Diane, you got Coach, you got Woody,

you got Cliff, you got Norm, you got

who am I missing?

You got Fraser.

Frasier.

Frazier, right.

Lilith.

Lilith.

Main,

Carla, obviously.

Very briefly, Eddie.

Yeah, Diane.

Right.

But there was this guy named Paul who just kind of like hung around in the background in almost every episode and only every now and then had a line.

And when I learned that he had a name, I was like, my world was shattered.

Like when they say, hey, let's get Paul.

I'm like, who's Paul?

Oh, that's Paul?

Why are you hanging around with that guy?

He has a different name in one episode.

I think just like they just forgot what his name was or something.

So, Emily, what Anita and Jesse have brought up actually brings frustratingly some

possibility of arguing that you're not wrong.

Insofar as we have John Mahoney playing

different characters in the legit Cheers of Verse and the the expanded Cheers of Verse.

We have Fraser Crane himself, obviously speaking the initial story of his father, written by the writers of Cheers, that was then changed, or as you will explain to the audience, retconned later after they've decided to give him a dad who is completely different than the one they established in the Cheers of Verse.

Television is a kind of a messy thing, and sitcoms are written and created on the fly.

Changes happen.

How does this messiness enhance your argument that you can be that famous character from Cheers, Martin Crane?

Yeah, so I included in my evidence a reference to retroactive continuity, which I believe they're using in this case in the episode of Cheers, where he references, where Frasier references his dad being dead.

They later explain in Fraser to Sam, I believe, who comes to visit, who brings up and says, I thought your dad was dead.

He uses it to explain that they were not on speaking terms at the time.

So he used that in conversation at the bar.

And then that's kind of how they explain it in Fraser.

So I included that in my evidence because I believe it backs up my argument that they are in the same universe.

And that's also what they use to explain why John Mahoney played a different character in Cheers.

Oh, did they explain that?

Well, or did they just let it be?

No, they just, yeah, they just let it be.

But that's a reference to the fact that.

As one of the most famously messy television shows of all time, the leftovers would say, let the mystery be.

Yeah.

Aaron, what do you think about this retroactive continuity argument?

Well, I don't really have a problem with Martin being in the expanded Cheers universe.

That's like.

Okay, great.

Let's go home.

Sorry.

Sorry.

I thought we had a podcast.

Sorry, Jesse.

I apologize.

Can we erase the tape?

Can we erase the tape and reuse it?

Great.

I already canceled the podcast.

I think the real issue for me is that it's

which Emily actually brought up is that Fraser and Martin weren't on speaking terms during the cheers years.

So to me, that means that Martin would never have set foot in the bar cheers.

And that defeats the whole purpose of our analogy of being like, if this is our cheers, this bar is our cheers, this place we like to hang out, this is where our friends are, you know, everyone knows our name, they're not going to know Martin's name.

But how do you respond to this?

Since, do you include this in your homework evidence, Emily?

The episode Cheerful Goodbyes?

I would say that

if I recall correctly, there is an episode in Frasier where they visit Boston and they do attempt to go to Cheers, but the bar happens to be closed that day because Sam's hosting a private event for his baseball team.

So I think that it still counts because he made the effort to go there.

And I do think that in this universe, it seems like the kind of bar that Martin would hang out at anyway.

Stand by for a moment before you make your specious speculations.

Okay.

Because I thought that this was established.

Anita of the I'm Listening podcast.

Cheerful goodbyes.

I've not seen this episode of Frasier.

Have you?

Season nine.

I have.

I will be honest.

I tend to drop off more after season seven, given certain romantic events.

I don't want to ruin, or maybe should I say,

I'm talking as if I don't want to spoil it for anyone.

But yes, I have seen the episode.

Does Emily describe it faithfully?

Do they get into cheers or not?

They do not.

They end up all meeting at the airport.

And like, I will be honest, it's a bit fuzzy for me, but I believe they're drinking at the airport.

and they basically try and like recreate and do like a little homage to cheers at the airport.

It's the airport from Wings, right?

Right.

That was said in Nantucket, I believe.

That was Massachusetts airport.

There was when I was growing up in Logan Airport a fake cheers in the airport with a fake Cliff and Norm sitting at the bar.

If they had done that, that would have been so.

I mean, this episode came out 2002 is season nine of Frasier when they go.

That would have been right in the heart of meta TV.

But based on my wiki that I'm looking at right now, John Mahoney does go and meet Carla and Cliff and Norm

and Paul.

Paul's there too.

Paul's everywhere.

Just because they did not set foot into Cheers, Aaron, I do not see why that does not place John Mahoney's Martin Crane firmly in the cheers of Earth.

I think my main sticking point here is that the reason that we refer to Sherwood as our Cheers

is because, you know, one, we're there all the time, like many of the Cheers regulars.

We've made friends with the staff.

We are definitely regulars.

And I don't think you can say that Martin Crane is a regular at Cheers.

He doesn't,

he may exist in the universe, but he doesn't participate in the bar in the same way that we participate.

in the bar, Sherwood.

For a moment, I thought you were doing this incredible thing,

sweetie.

I thought you were taking this whole discussion, which had been up, up in the air of pure

metacultural commentary.

And you were like, let me bring this back home to Sherwood.

Let me explain to you the feelings I have when my friend says she is Martin Crane.

Let me explain to you what it's like in our real world.

I thought that's where you were going, but instead you're like, technically she broke the rules.

Because even if it could be established that Gartin Crane was part of the Cheersiverse, he was not a regular and the premise was which regular of cheers, which regular cast member of cheers would you be?

Is that pretty typical of Aaron, Emily?

Is he a rules follower?

Yes, actually.

I submitted another piece of evidence that supports this exact kind of argument in that he's a rules follower.

There's a screenshot of a text messages that were exchanged between Speedy and I where I was explaining to him him that I have a foot injury and I am on a wait list to get an MRI.

I have the text message in front of me.

Do you have it in front of you?

I do, but you can read it if you'd like.

Please, I will perform this scene with you.

Oh, okay.

In this scene, you shall essay the role of you, and I shall essay the role of little Sweetie.

Start with the text that ends, orthopedic surgeon, please.

Yeah, so I'm on the wait list and I have to go visit an orthopedic surgeon.

Whoa.

Getting an MRI is kind of cool.

Yeah, slide me into that laser chamber.

It's magnets, but uh, yeah.

Who cares?

I'm gonna come out radioactive.

I wonder what my superpower will be.

MRIs don't use radiation.

I know that.

Okay.

God, stop correcting me.

Fine.

And scene.

I don't know what voice I was doing there.

Anita, your friend, who's the name of your friend who does the great Kelsey Grammar impersonation?

Dan Chamberlain.

I'm no Dan Chamberlain.

I did a pretty good Niles Crane on your show.

And then I was like, failing.

Look, it was terrible.

And I wasn't even doing the mocking version of Lil Sweetie that I was doing before.

There was no consistency in my performance.

But I think the point was made.

Aaron, you're a stickler for the rules.

Yeah, I would like to say that I'm practical.

Can I add something?

Please.

I won't use his last name, but let's just say that I recently got into an online fight with somebody in a Freedor fan club named Galileo.

And

just so you know how I spend my free time, and I will be honest, I'm starting to be more open to Emily's point of view, mostly because I'm being reminded of the fight I got in with Galileo.

And it was over a separate issue, but he too was a stickler for the rules.

And I would like to say that I am an open-minded person.

Therefore, I feel as if the more I think about Martin Crane, the more I like like the idea that his character would hang out at Cheers because there is a bar that he frequents throughout Fraser that is his Cheers.

Dukes.

Dukes, exactly.

I like the idea of breaking down some of these barriers,

these barriers

of this universe that exists.

And I don't want to be as close-minded as Galileo, and no offense to Sweetie,

I'm starting to side with Emily right now, because I like the idea of of Martin Crane in another life hanging out with everyone from Cheers.

With all due respect to the person who named this case, can we change this to no offense to Little Sweetie?

I think I've heard everything that I can possibly hear on this subject.

I'm about ready to make my verdict.

But Jesse Thorne, you came into this hot.

You were like ready for a fight.

You did not believe that Martin Crane belonged in the Cheersiverse, if I understood your position correctly.

How has your opinion changed or stayed the same?

I have strong opinions about every piece of this, John.

I am a very deep Cheers partisan in the imagined war that I have imagined between Cheers partisans and Fraser partisans.

I think it's because I have deep emotional connections to cheers from watching it on our...

10-inch black and white television with my dad after school in our apartment that we shared in which we did not have beds.

We literally didn't have beds.

We just had like blankets on the floor.

And I think also that as wonderful as Frasier is, I think that during its time in the sun, I resented it because it would always win all of the awards because its trappings of fanciness would lead people to think of it as like an intellectual show when in fact it was just a very well-executed regular sitcom.

And in the world of very well-executed regular sitcoms, there can be no king other than cheers

and i also have deep and passionate feelings about all the many cheers characters that could have been chosen given the opportunity to choose between all of the characters in cheers i mean the remarkable thing about cheers

above all else is that there are so

many

main characters and that each and every one of them is perfectly portrayed both by a brilliant writing staff over many years and by an even more brilliant cast.

There are so many choices.

And if you want to say that your favorite Cheers character is Paul, as I just did, or you want to say it's Harry Anderson, or you want to say it's Dan Hediah, or whatever,

I think that's great.

This is a bridge too far from my perspective.

I think it is a disrespect.

I think it is a thumb in the nose nose or a thumb in the eye or whatever the expression is to cheers that you would choose a Frasier character as the best character from Cheers.

Well,

since we understand the stakes are extremely high,

I want to ask Aaron.

Aaron, these stakes are extremely low.

Who cares?

Why does it matter to you?

What is it to damage you for Emily to make this claim?

I think ultimately, like a lot of disagreements that Emily Emily and I get into from time to time about this level of you know importance a lot of it is just about being right

I know that ultimately this this won't make a big difference in our friendship whichever the way this goes but you're saying that it's important to you to be right yes when you know when you know you're right and the other person can't accept it that is distracting to you yeah i think that's fair to say great thank you by the way for finding the crux uh and revealing the the deeper emotional undercurrent behind this dispute.

It is the trademark of the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast.

I basically have blown it off for the past hour because I just like talking about television too.

So I appreciate your keeping me on brand

while you are also trying to protect the brand of Cheers.

If I were to rule in your favor, Aaron, what would you have me rule?

I would want Emily to pick a Cheers character and say definitively that she is that Cheers character.

I think we originally set out that we would, whoever wins buys the other a drink.

Without saying it, do you have a character in mind?

Yeah, I do.

Don't say it.

Emily, if I were to rule in your favor, how would you want me to rule?

I would want you to rule that Sweetie has to allow me to identify with Martin Crane because they are in the same universe and he would have to buy me the drink at the bar, but also to be a little bit more open-minded and accepting of my playful, creative brain.

Yeah, okay.

And just, I mean, this is truly speculative and hypothetical.

If I were to rule in Aaron's favor and compel you, under order of fake internet court

to name a main recurring character of Cheers, and you know who I'm talking about, all of our friends in the Cheers, in Cheers,

to identify with, do you have someone in mind?

Yes.

Okay.

So hold on that while I go into Sam's office and think this over a little bit more and I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Emily, how are you feeling?

I'm feeling pretty confident, to be honest.

I didn't feel confident coming into it, but I think the evidence kind of speaks in my favor, so I feel pretty good.

Did you not feel confident going into it because you knew your argument was almost entirely specious?

No, I would say more just that I felt felt nervous and that I wouldn't be able to speak to my case.

But I think the evidence speaks for itself.

Lil Sweedham's brand tangerines, how do you feel about your chance in the case?

I am almost the opposite.

I came in feeling quite confident and now

seeing the direction it's taken, I'm unsure now what way it's going to go.

How do you feel about the fact that, frankly, my future participation in this podcast may hinge on the results?

I hope for both of our sakes then, and that it is in my favor.

I hope you didn't mess this up for everybody, Aaron.

Ooh, sorry, Jesse.

We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say when we come back in just a second.

I'm Emily Fleming.

I'm Jordan Morris.

And I'm Matt Lieb.

We are real comedy writers.

Real friends.

And real cheapskates.

On every episode of our podcast, Free with Ads, we ask, why pay for expensive streaming services when you can get free movies from apps with weird names?

Each week, we review the freest movies the internet has to offer.

Classics like Pride and Prejudice.

Cult classics like Point Break.

And holy sh, what did I just watch?

Classics like Teen Witch.

Tune in every week as we take a deep dive into the internet's bargain bin.

Every Tuesday on maximumfun.org or your favorite podplace.

The Flop House is a podcast where we watch a bad movie and then we talk about it.

Robert Shaw in Jaws, and they're trying to figure out how to get rid of the ghoulies, and he scratches his nails and goes, I'll get you a ghoulie.

He's just standing above the toilet with a heart.

No, I was just looking forward to you going through the other ways in which Wild Wild West is historically inaccurate.

Do you know how much movies cost nowadays when you add in your popped corn and your bagel bites and your cheese spritters?

You can't go wrong with a Henry Camille Mustache.

Here it is Henry Camill Mustache is the only supplier.

The Flop House.

New episodes every Saturday.

Find it at maximumfun.org.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So, you know, I grew up watching Cheers, and I grew up in Brookline, Massachusetts, a region of British Columbia.

I'm not sure if you know that, Jesse.

It's part of the western part of Canada.

I loved watching Cheers with my family.

I loved that my family in Philadelphia loved watching Cheers.

I realized that it wasn't just a Boston thing.

Two northeastern cities could relate to it.

Maybe it was even more universal to see these friends from different walks of life coming together and being in a place where they could make fun of each other and comfortably live together.

They had more alike than they had different, that's for sure.

You just look at that show now, you're like, wow, how is it possible they got away with that particular Caucasian cast?

But it still, like Fraser itself, presents a kind of universal humanity that people can really attach to.

And I thought, got something really right about Boston: that Boston is this it's a fairly sizable town that imagines itself a city but is densely occupied by this long tradition of working class people and this long tradition of snooty upper class people two worlds that I kind of grew up between with my

my being a really snooty upper class person my parents being the first in their families to go to college and my grandparents being working class people so it was very meaningful to me but all of that meant nothing until I mean it meant something but it didn't really click in until the show was ending.

And I watched the cast who had, you know, lived and worked together essentially for, you know, a decade or however long it was, and just how much fun they have with each other.

And for me, I was like, if I ever have a job, that would be the greatest job to have, to just be working with people who really inspire and delight you.

And you get to be with them all the time.

And I despaired, because even though I liked my job at the literary agency at the time, I didn't have that.

And I thought I would never have it.

And then, very unexpectedly, I did have it in two ways: both at the Daily Show and the Apple Lads.

I was on television and doing the job that I loved the most with people who constantly made me laugh and inspire me.

I felt so of the many, I often feel like I got lucky because I got to have a cheers job.

Honestly, if I think of who I would be in that bar, if I had to pick my own person, I kind of feel like Paul.

Like I feel like I'm just happy to be there.

You know, like I don't need to be a main character.

As in my entire career, I just felt lucky to be there and I felt happy that I could just throw in a line or two in part because I just felt so lucky to be there and in part because I don't like working that hard.

And indeed, that's what I got to do on lots of different shows like Bored to Death, where I worked with Ted Danson.

I got to do it.

I got to be on Doug.

I worked at the Old Town Bar with Ted Danson

in New York City, a bar that I used to go to.

Forget it, it just means too much to me.

I feel so happy that I got to have been a Paul, a fly on the barstool of this experience.

And you can read all that in a Medallion Status New Book by me, John Hodgman.

So here are my rulings.

Having listened to Anita Flores, host of I'm Listening a Fraser podcast, having listened to my bailiff, Jesse Thorne, having listened to our litigants, Aaron and Emily, and their own arguments, having looked into my own expertise as obviously,

by extension, an obvious member of the Cheersiverse.

I worked with Ted Danson, right?

That's got to count.

I worked with B.B.

Newerth.

I sat in a different

situation.

I sat on a barstool next to George Wendt at a charity event at a bar.

I sat next to him in the Clavin position.

I didn't say anything because that poor guy can't sit at any bars without ever getting it, you know.

And I can say this.

Martin Crane is in the Cheers of Verse.

Sorry, Jesse.

It's obvious.

It was established by retroactive continuity by the writers of Frasier.

It was established by the fact that he...

That character went to Boston to go to Cheers.

He entered the Cheers of Verse at the end of Fraser.

Even though that retroactive continuity is somewhat inelegant and unbelievable that is that is an established way of shoehorning characters into existing properties and you know i i you can't read comic books without believing in retcons anita so expertly pointed out the messiness of how character actors appear in one thing and the other and there aren't strict lines between it We also know that the cast of Saint Elsewhere visited Cheers, and everything exists in the Tommy Westfall averse.

Look it up on the internet.

And most of all, I know this because I texted someone during the course of this podcast.

I didn't know if I would hear anything back, but I texted someone I know and I said, I have a question.

Someone on my podcast is maintaining that Martin Crane counts as a Cheers character.

Do you have an opinion on this?

And this person wrote back, I agree.

I just watched the clip of his episode.

How wonderful he is on the show.

That person was Ted Danson.

Yes.

I am appealing to Steve Virgin.

So, I mean, honestly, Ted's answer was a little bit not clear.

I asked, do you have an opinion on this?

And he said, I agree.

It's kind of having it both ways.

Not really clear what episode it was he was watching.

But I think all signs point to yes, that you can say that Martin Crane is a member of the Cheers of Earse.

So if that is what you are asking me to rule, then I have to to rule in Emily's favor.

However, I will also say that Aaron, you're not a Frasier Crane because Frasier Crane could deal with ambiguity.

Frasier Crane had been so tortured in life and had caused so much emotional damage and had so much more visited back upon him that the reason Frasier Crane is the star of the show is that his belief in order and rules has been already shaken to a degree that he's able to surrender from time to time to chaos.

You know who isn't?

Niles.

Niles would be the one saying, well, Frasier, you didn't properly follow the rules.

So what's weird is

that you're not a part of the Cheersiverse either.

Or at least your identification is more in the Fraser universe, just like your friend, Emily.

Emily, you didn't follow the rules.

You broke the rules.

And I like that.

I like your creative thinking.

I think Aaron should appreciate that about you.

Thank you.

But just as a thought experiment, let's all say who we think Emily is in the Cheersiverse, in the main cast.

We'll say it on three, all three of us.

You ready?

This is not binding.

Yeah.

I'm going to say one, two, three, and after three, we all say that our characters that we think.

This is an homage to the Doughboys.

They're part of the Judge John Hodgman averse.

One, two, three.

Carla.

I guess the norms have it.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

It is with a heavy heart,

Aaron and Emily, that I submit my resignation

as bailiff on the Judge John Hodgman podcast, having disrespected the memory of my still-living father

and

our apartment on Godias Street that didn't have beds.

I must separate myself here and forever from Judge John Hodgman.

That said, I've got a few things to handle here.

Hey, everyone.

Please welcome our new bailiff, Kirsty Alley.

Aaron, how do you feel?

Not great, Jesse.

But I can handle it.

It's okay.

I feel like I am not...

the pedantic jerk that I may have come across as.

But

I can accept this ruling and I will abide by it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tell it to my new boss, Judge Mary Steenbergen.

Emily, how do you feel?

I feel amazing.

I feel on top of the world.

I feel great.

Looking down on creation, huh?

But I'm sorry for the loss of your job.

It's okay.

Thank you for apologizing to me in that funny Canadian way.

Erin, Emily, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

In a moment, we'll have Swift Justice.

First, our thanks to Anita Flores.

Everybody should check out her podcast.

Anita, you also have a show coming up in New York, right?

Yes, I do.

It's called Party of Two.

It's at the Pleasure Chest.

I know this is a family-friendly show.

It's a sexy shop.

Let's just put it that way.

It's comedians and storytellers talking about the absurdity of dating in New York.

So that show is on November 16th at 7.30 p.m.

at the Pleasure Chest in the Upper East Side.

Wow, that's great.

When by a sexy shop, we specifically mean that they sell Ted Dansons.

That's right, exactly.

Cardboard cutouts, yes.

Anita's on Instagram and Twitter at Anita Jutina.

Anita, it's been a joy to have you on the show.

Thank you so much.

It's been a pleasure.

Thank you so much.

Our thanks to Yippie Kaye for for naming this week's episode.

Oh, I do so hope that that's a legal name.

If you'd like to name a future episode of the show like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, we regularly put out calls for submissions there.

You can follow us on Twitter.

John is at Hodgman.

I am at Jesse Thorne.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ H O to get in on the conversation.

You can also chat about this episode at maximumfund.reddit.com if you're a redditor.

Our show is on Instagram at judgejohnhodgman.

I think we'll just be having Hannah post a lot of pictures of Paul this week.

Yes.

Yes.

Make sure to follow us there.

This week's episode recorded by Justin Lapointe at Electric City Sound.

Our producer is Hannah Smith.

Our editor is Jesus Ambrosio.

Now, Swift Justice, Your Small Disputes, Our Quick Judgment.

Ruby asks, what's the best milk spot in the fridge?

I grew up putting milk in the door.

My partner, Liv, says milk belongs in the middle shelf of the main fridge.

Help!

I have put it in the door and I have put it in the bottom shelf and I put it in the middle shelf.

My only rule is it's going to be on the right-hand side because that's my go-to.

I'm right-handed, and I'm going to get that milk.

Put it wherever you want.

That's not going to solve your problem, but I don't care about any problems anymore.

I just realized I'm part of the Cheersiverse.

That's about it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash jjho or email hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No cases too small.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

MaximumFund.org.

Comedy and culture.

Artist owned.

Audience supported.