Side Effects May Include Justice

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm summertime, fun-time, guest bailiff Monty Belmonte from 939 the River WRSI in Northampton, Massachusetts.

This week, side effects may include justice.

Yael brings the case against her boyfriend, Jeff.

Yael is lipitorn about what to do with expired medication and is on Enchantix with the idea of keeping it.

Jeff says Yael needs to dim a tap the brakes on her worry and to see the man off in his right.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can sort through the cotton balls and pull off this child-proof cap.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Upon entering my body, the podcast would start a warm itch that would surge along until the brain consumed it in a gentle explosion.

It began in the back of the neck and rose rapidly until I felt such pleasure that the whole world sympathized and took on a soft, lofty appeal.

Everything was grand then.

Your worst enemy, he wasn't so bad.

The ants and the grass, they were just, you know, doing their thing.

Everything took on the rosy hue of unlimited success.

You could do no wrong, and as long as the podcast lasted, life was beautiful.

Summertime, fun time, guest bailiff Monty Belmonte, swear the litigants in.

Yael and Jeff, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or headache, nausea, vomiting, dizziness, red and painful palms and feet, shooting pain, numbness, tingling, restless legs, loss of smell, brain freeze, dysentery, cardiac arrhythmia, sack thigh, increased desire to gamble, benign but dangerous liver tumors, varicose veins, hemorrhoids, the outbreak of psoriasis, Christ, you don't know the meaning of heartache, buddy, or death?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that Hodgman spells relief, R-O-L-A-I-D-S?

I do.

I do.

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Monty Belmonte from WRSI The River, River, our constant summertime, fun-time guest bailiff, always layers so many puns

into his opening.

And he got me so distracted because his mention of what were the drugs that he mentioned?

Chantix, Lipitorn, Dymatap, Acetaminophen.

It reminded me of my favorite internet meme, which is,

is it a prescription drug or is it the name of an elf in Lord of the Rings?

Because when you think of like Calebra, Calebra, that's a name of an elf, right?

I mean, Sildenophil,

which is a generic elf.

The name brand elf is Viagra.

Sorry, I kind of totally lost track there because I had completely forgotten about that joke, which is so clever.

The only time I like wordplay at all was when I look it up.

Monty.

Meanwhile, Yell and Jeff, please be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours.

Wright's hands, can you name the piece of culture that I paraphrased as I entered the courtroom?

Yale, let's start with you.

Sure.

Totally off the top of my head.

I'm pretty sure it's from the 2006 movie expiration date.

Oh, expiration date, the 2006 movie.

I will add that to the guest.

Sorry, I'm still looking at elf names.

I gotta close on my computer.

I'm so sorry.

See, Alice, right?

This is the name of an elf.

Or is it Key Alice?

It depends.

All right.

I'm here with Joel Mann at WERU in Orland, Maine, which is my summertime, fun time, hideout.

Hi, Joel.

Hello, Judge.

Look, this is a community-supported radio station, right?

We're having a pledge drive.

Okay, yeah, exactly.

That's what you have to say.

When I say a radio station, you have to say pledge drive.

WERU.org, you can go there and support them.

What I'm asking is, by community-supported radio station, it's like freeform hippie music, right?

You've got to have some pretty good drugs around here.

Do you have anything to help me focus?

They were selling clones in Blue Hill last week.

I don't know what you're talking about, and I don't know what you're on.

Let's move on.

Jeff, what's your guess?

Definitely a mountain goat song.

Definitely a mountain goat song.

Yeah.

You could also say: is it a long quotation from Lord of the Rings, or is it a mountain goat song?

Also, an easy game to play.

Monty, do you have a guess as to what I was quoting when I entered the courtroom?

It is from those Wilford Brimley commercials where he refers to diabetes as diabetes

over and over again, which is one of my favorite memes.

We do have one more person to ask.

Mystery Guest, do you have a guess as to what the piece of culture I referenced was?

Yeah, that's definitely something I said, right?

That sounds like me.

If only that were true.

No, all guesses are wrong.

That's actually from the 1989 movie Drugstore Cowboy, starring Matt Dillon.

in a role that was written for Tom Waits.

Did you know that, Monty?

Did you ever see that movie?

Wow.

No.

I've seen the movie.

I didn't know it was written for Tom Waits.

That's cool.

Yeah.

They cast Matt Dylan instead because the studio said to the director, Gus Van Sant, we would like people to see this movie.

So

I don't know if you guys are Tom Waits fans, but there's a little story in my upcoming book, Medallion Status, a true story from when I worked as a 19-year-old in a cheese shop in London, and I was playing Tom Waits on the cassette deck there.

And a beautiful woman comes in and she buys some cheese.

And I'm ringing her up and she goes, what is this music?

And I said, said, it's Swordfish Trombones by Tom Waits, of course.

You know, I was so excited that she appreciated it.

She said, yeah, I wanted to know, so I never made a mistake and bought it.

She walked out.

Did you catch my Tom Waits reference in the list?

No.

The heartbreak of psoriasis cries, you don't need the meaning of heartache, buddy.

That's from Step Right Up.

Oh, right.

Okay.

If you have Tom Waits on the brain for more than four hours a day, consult your doctor.

Meanwhile, let's get back into this case here.

And I mentioned a mystery guest before.

I'm very happy, for reasons that should become very obvious very quickly to welcome as an expert witness to the podcast a dr sidney mclroy hello hi thank you for having me for those of you who don't know and shame on you if you don't sydney is a doctor she is one of the hosts of maximum funds sawbones which she co-hosts with her life partner justin mclroy and i dare say legal husband do i have that correct yes that is accurate right

she is also the co-author of the sawbones book subtitled The Horrifying, Hilarious Road to Modern Medicine.

And we're so glad to have you here because this case involves a certain amount of medical expertise.

I am not a doctor, and I do not play one on a podcast.

And I do not want to tell Jeff to take expired medications if they're going to kill him.

I want you to have that responsibility.

So, Yael, you bring the case before this court.

What is the justice you seek?

Tell us what's happening in your home.

So, Jeff and I moved in together almost a year ago, and we both minimized both our separate houses and we got rid of a lot of things and then when we moved in we combined everything including our medication.

So we have a medication drawer but when I go to take some sort of pill or cream I often check the expiration date and I have noticed more and more that these medications have expired not one year ago, one and a half year ago, but up to 14 years ago.

And I am not willing to take those medications.

Jeff's got old drugs.

You didn't know that you were shacking up with an old drugman.

I had a feeling, but no.

When you said that you combined medications, I really hoped that you meant you opened all your pill bottles and poured them all into a bowl.

And now you just take them randomly.

Yeah, that makes life more exciting.

You just close your eyes and pick one.

That's what all couples who live together should do.

Okay, Jeff, how do you respond to this?

It's an accusation, but I presume that it's true.

It is true.

There are a lot of medications which

do not necessarily go bad, at least not very quickly at all.

It takes many years.

And I just feel it's very wasteful to get rid of things like ibuprofen, Tylenol.

These would just be things that are thrown in the trash and all the plastic packaging and all the carbon spent to get that thing to us would then be for naught.

And then there's also, you you know, it costs money to buy the drugs to replace them.

Right.

What do you do for a living?

I am a software engineer for.

Oh, well, then you can definitely afford new drugs.

Well, I work for a nonprofit, a certain national television service.

You can go ahead and say what it is.

Do you think if I didn't stop you at Tylenol

that I was going to be mad?

I know you work for PBS.

That's true.

I can't believe, Jeff, that you would buzz market Big Pharma and throw PBS under the bus.

I guess I'm betraying the mission a little bit.

Not only that, but it says here, you work for PBS kids.

Yes.

Yeah, so you probably don't have enough money to buy new Tylenols.

No wonder you're trying to get that secret buzz marketing money from Big Pharma on my podcast.

What's the oldest thing you have?

I think she got it correct with 14 years expired.

What is it?

What is the medication?

I think that it's the ibuprofen.

There's also a Benadryl cream, I believe, that dates back to 2005.

Yeah, you sent in some photos of over-the-counter medication, which are going to make a very interesting contribution to the Judge John Hodgman Instagram page if you don't understand the context.

But yes, indeed, we're going to be posting all of these disturbing pictures of lone bottles of over-the-counter medication on the Judge John Hodgman Instagram page, as well as on the Judge John Hodgman page at maximumfund.org.

Dr.

McElroy, are you with me here for this consult?

Yes, I am here.

Do you have access to these photos?

Or should I telex them to your office?

We do usually prefer faxes still in doctors' offices inexplicably, but no, I had a computer this time and I looked at them.

Oh, that's so great.

I just faxed a thing to a pharmacy here in Maine this morning.

It was very exciting to use fax technology.

Joel Mann, do they have a fax machine here at WERU?

No, that NATRAX are out.

Okay.

What about you, Monty Belmonte, WRSI the River?

You got a fax machine?

We certainly do.

Good.

What's the number?

It is 413-1-413-585-0927.

I'm looking at the documents that I have posted here.

I certainly hope that's it and that everybody doesn't start calling like our office manager and trying to send paper to them through the phone.

That number again is press the 15-second rewind on your podcast app.

You can get it that way.

And we'll alternate between pictures of pills and pictures of faxes that you send Monty on the Judge John Otterman page when this comes out.

But meanwhile,

let's focus on pictures of pills right now.

We have here some ibuprofen, aspirin.

This looks like a bottle of Motrin,

and then a bottle of something else.

Can you identify this, Dr.

McElroy, in the bottom right-hand corner with the blue top?

This is to show expiration dates, not brand names.

Some sort of allergy.

Is that loratidine or claritin would be the brand?

That could be accurate.

I'm not sure.

We did not bring the bottles in front of us.

Jeff, you don't even know your old drugs.

I know that I don't want to waste them.

Whatever this mystery allergy drug is,

it expired September of 2015.

The Motrin expired September of 2016.

The aspirin expired November of 2007.

And then we get to this Benadryl cream, which expired October of 2005.

Do you like antique drugs, Jeff?

Is this a collection?

I wouldn't say I like the drugs themselves, no.

I like the savings of the environment as well as, you know, the wallet that keeping them brings.

Dr.

McElroy, when we're talking about over-the-counter drugs such as these, what is the effectiveness of a Benadryl cream?

that has an expiration date printed on it of 14 years ago.

Well, that's a nuanced question because one of my issues, and most doctors would say with Benadryl cream in general, is it's not actually very effective even when you buy it brand new.

I hate to bust that myth.

Whoa.

Yeah, and creams and liquids are actually more likely to lose potency over time than pills or capsules.

So I can't give you a percentage.

You'd have to test it that specific tube to know.

But I would wager to say it probably has lost some of whatever potency it had initially at this point.

But you already said Benadryl cream is basically poop, right?

We can quote you on that.

I don't recommend it to patients because it can cause itching and it's supposed to be used for itching.

Benadryl is like

a steroid?

An antihistamine.

So Benadryl is an antihistamine cream.

Do you find that the creams are less effective than, say, an oral suspension?

Yes, yes.

Benadryl as a pill or a capsule or an oral suspension is effective, but in a cream, I usually don't recommend it anyway, but certainly not one that's this old.

Is there any anti-itch cream for the human body that you would recommend asking for a friend?

Steroid creams are usually better options.

Like a cortisone cream?

Yes, yes, some sort of steroid cream.

Or if you need something stronger, then your doctor can prescribe that.

Let's say this friend found a tube of cortisone cream cream and put it on an itchy area, and it really stung badly.

Instead of helping, it hurt.

And then this friend noticed that this tube of cortisone cream that he had discovered in this house in Maine expired five years ago.

Is that something that you've ever encountered before?

And is this friend going to survive, or does this friend now have a terrible disease because of a bad old cortisone?

I think this friend will be just fine, but I would recommend disposing of this cortisone cream.

It perhaps is not going to help you anymore.

See, Joel, I told you you'd be fine.

I am.

I love that you're getting angry at certain brand name creams.

Dr.

McElroy, what is the over-the-counter medication that you think is the best at doing what it's supposed to do?

And what is the over-the-counter medication that you think is the worst?

at doing what it's supposed to do, if not Benadryl Cream.

If it is Benadryl Cream, then we've got it.

Okay, I think that the best over-the-counter medications in terms of how effective they are are probably everyday things we use for pain, ibuprofen or acetaminophen.

I personally think ibuprofen is a little better if you can take it, which some patients can't, for pain.

Yeah, some patients cannot take non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs because they have Sempers triad, okay?

I can't take aspirin.

I can't take ibuprofen.

I don't know what it's like.

It must be fun.

Jeff, when you take ibuprofen, is it fun?

It is a blast.

Man, everyone's having fun on ibuprofen but me.

So ibuprofen, you think is great.

Everyone loves it.

Some people in the world will be forever denied its beauty, but that's fine.

What else?

What else do you like over the counter?

I think there are a lot of the antihistamines that do work over the counter.

If that is indeed loratidine, which most people know by brand name as Claritin,

those antihistamines can work well for all kinds of allergies.

So I think those are pretty effective.

I take Laratidine occasionally.

But I would say that the things I can't stand are the general cold medications that have like four or five different ingredients that are all supposed to do different things.

A lot of the time they are, they are just...

They might have some acetaminophen in there, which could help with, you know, if you have a headache or something as part of your constellation of symptoms.

But the other things in there are going to usually raise your heart rate and raise your blood pressure and make you feel fuzzy and lightheaded and not really do much of anything at all.

A lot of studies have shown them to be not really effective in any way.

And so I generally tell people not to waste their money or time with those.

All right, Jeff, you got any expired dayquil in there that you can throw out?

Because it sounds like that's garbage already.

Garbage when new.

I think I have some unexpired dayquil in there.

Throw it away.

You heard the doctor.

All right.

Doctor's orders.

Here's what what we're going to do.

Yael?

Do you have a pen and paper?

I do.

As we come across things that Jeff should throw away, you put them on the list, okay?

So he should throw out his unexpired cold medication and throw out that Benadryl cream.

Right, Dr.

McElroy?

Yes, I would agree with that.

Got it.

And what about this expired bacetracin and this expired polysporin?

One is from Odhein, one is from 2011.

Toss?

I mean, those are ointments that can be effective when they're potent, but they probably have lost some potency over time, so they might not work as well for, you know, minor infections, which could then become a little more serious.

So I don't know.

I mean, that's the hard thing.

You're risking that they're not going to be effective.

So I would not use them.

If they were in my house, I'd get rid of them.

Get some fresh bacitrace and some fresh polysporn.

Yeah.

Okay.

Let's take a quick recess.

We'll be back in just a moment on Judge John Hodgman.

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We adore you all and we thank you for your support, including one very special Max Fund member whom I'm very excited to introduce right now.

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Yeah, standard bailiff.

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Prepare your disappointment.

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No, come on, Jesse.

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Court is back in session.

Let's get back to the courtroom to hear more of the case.

Gal,

how did it feel when you opened up the drawer to see all this ancient medication?

Did you feel like you didn't know the man that you decided to live with?

It's interesting because, on one hand,

Jeff has what I know of him is he tries to be a minimalist.

He's really all about getting rid of things and, well, you know, recycling and donating, et cetera, but to not have too many things, which I very much respect.

At the same time, he's also against waste.

You know, I would think the minimalist in him would want to get rid of these things, but apparently he, you know, is focused more on the waste.

You identify something interesting because there there's a competing impulse right when you talk about being a minimalist and getting rid of things I presume you are of course referring to my John Hodgman's incredibly successful Netflix show John Hodgman's all-the-time sorcery of throwing stuff out it's my show about discovering which items in your house electrify you with pleasure and then showing gratitude to them and then getting rid of them if they no longer serve a purpose in your life and I came up with this idea all by myself, and I am the sole inventor of this concept.

And it does seem to me that some of these janky, mushed up old tubes of bacitracin and whatnot can definitely go down the garbage chute.

Don't you think, Jeff?

That's debatable.

I mean, are they sparking joy for you?

When you open up that drug drawer and you see that smushed up polysporin with the 2011 font on it, are you like, hmm, glad that's there?

Well, I think there's a difference in they have lost some potency and these are useless.

We should throw them out.

It's interesting to me that you haven't answered the question.

When you look at these photos, Jeff, do you think to yourself, I'm really glad I have these things?

No, but that's not necessarily what minimalism is to me.

You know, whether or not it sparks joy is not always the determining factor.

Are you trying to tell me you have a competing Netflix series to mine?

I wish.

What's your theory of minimalism that includes this tube of polysporin?

Just whenever I get a cut, I'd like to be able to use something on it

without having to go buy a new thing to use on it.

Do you live in an urban area or a suburban area or a rural area?

Urban.

We're in D.C.

You're in D.C.

Yeah.

But you sent a nice photo of the two of you hanging out in Brookline Village.

Indeed.

That was pure pandering to this court because Brookline is my hometown.

What?

Who knew?

Yeah, what a surprise.

I like seeing you there in Brookline Village at the Brookline Village tea stop on the Green Line, the D Spur going to Riverside.

Did you have a nice time in Brookline?

Why were you there?

We were

ointments.

Exactly.

That's what it's known for, Brookline, the ointments.

Yeah.

Brookline Village is also known as Ointment Town.

Ointment Town.

We were there visiting friends after a lovely weekend in Rhode Island.

And that was the day that we heard that we're coming on the podcast.

So we were in Brookline when we got the email, so I think it's fate.

Fantastic.

You know, Brookline is known as the place to go after Rhode Island.

So you did the right thing.

But you live in D.C., like Brookline,

a place that probably has a pharmacy on every corner.

We have some, yes.

Yeah.

You know, during the summers, I come up here, and because I am marginally self-employed, I can spend a chunk of the summer up here in Maine where it's a different, you know, to get to the pharmacy, it's a 15, 20-minute drive.

Joel, how long does it take you to get to the pharmacy?

22 minutes.

Okay.

Glad you have it timed out.

Monty, how long does it take you to get to the pharmacy down there in rural western Massachusetts?

I can walk to a pharmacy in probably less than five minutes.

Well, that's because you live in the metropolis of Turner's Falls.

That's right.

But I could see a situation in if you get a cut or an abrasion and it's going to take you 22 minutes to get to the pharmacy.

You would prefer to have some old unguent in the drawer rather than go and get some new unguent.

Hmm.

Yeah, I have a question for you.

Why do you care?

I care because

if I want to take medication, I want to make sure that it works.

And even though I know that the expiration date may be random, it is often random, I'm not going to waste my headache on something that may or may not be efficient and work.

And I feel silly buying a whole new bottle of whatever medication it is when I see a full one there.

So I prefer to just get rid of those and have a joint effective drawer full of medication that we can both use.

Can I add something?

Oh yeah, please.

Did you happen to read the NPR article I sent your way?

No, no, I'm not going to read any articles you sent my way.

Was it my teacher?

Did you read that article from that publicly funded radio network that goes across the country, which we will not mention by name?

That was a better way to refer to it.

I'm sorry.

You're not my teacher.

I'm not doing homework.

Tell me what it says.

Okay.

So what it says is essentially there was a study done on some really old medication, and it was found to be, I believe it was like 90% of it was found to be still effective, very effective after 30 to 40 years.

Okay, you have a quote here.

The findings surprised both researchers.

A dozen of the 14 compounds were still as potent as they were when they were manufactured, some at almost 100%

of their labeled concentrations.

Was this for pills or for ointments?

I believe it was all pills.

Yeah, because as Dr.

McElroy suggests,

and tell me if I'm wrong here, Sidney, but like, you feel like pills tend to hang on to their effectiveness, right?

They do.

And you're right.

That's not the only study that has shown that.

Actually, through the Department of Defense, they do shelf-life extension program studies all the time to see if they can continue to use like giant lots of medications that the military has and is expiring, but they don't want to get rid of.

So there are a lot of studies like that that show that the pills we take are probably effective long after their shelf life says, maybe 15, maybe 20 years, maybe 30.

The only difference I would say what's hard about those studies and this one too is that the medications they study have been kept in their original packaging sealed that entire time.

And that's the one caveat to a lot of them is we don't know what happens once we've opened those packages and started using those pills.

Does that change things?

We don't have a lot of studies to say the answer to that.

But I would say that yes, they definitely are potent longer than the very

arbitrary expiration dates, which are really the manufacturers say, well, we studied them for two or three years.

They were still effective.

So we'll slap that on there and move on.

So you're suggesting that maybe Yael and Jeff should leave their drug drawer untouched for scientific purposes so that the Department of Defense can study Jeff's half-finished bottles of Allegra.

I like that.

One more thing that I take blame for as well is that we store our medication in the bathroom.

And doing research for this, I realized that that is the worst place to do so because the humidity in itself and the heat and the change of temperature definitely can make the medication lose its effectiveness.

So I would say that's even more so besides being open, we're probably not taking good care of our medication.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, yell.

Are you telling me you don't have a temperature-controlled Tylenol vault?

What?

One of the things we got rid of when we moved.

It's too bad.

Sidney McElroy, not that they've aired these concerns yet, but I'm wondering, is there ever a worry of an adverse effect because of an older drug?

It's a great question.

Not with the medicines we've discussed so far or the ones pictured in our evidence files here.

No.

But there are definitely, when we get into prescription medications, there are medications like insulin, nitroglycerin.

Those are medicines that once they're expired, I mean you need to get new ones.

Don't take those past their expiration date.

And there was an old case where an old form of tetracycline was possibly causing kidney failure in patients because it was degrading when they were taking it past its expiration date.

But that's not really on the market anymore.

So most medicines don't become toxic per se.

That's a pretty unusual case.

It's just that prescription meds, if they lose their effectiveness and you need them to survive, obviously that's a bad situation.

So Jeff and Yale, do you have any insulin?

Do you have any nitroglycerin?

Do you have any original flavor tetracycline rotting in your drawer?

None of those.

Okay.

So what about Ciprofluxacin?

Is that something we should be concerned about?

I believe that was a Noldorin elf who forged magic swords.

You know what it sounds like, a character from the Adventure Zone, Sidney McElroy.

You know what I'm referring to?

The Adventure Zone?

I may be familiar with that, mildly familiar.

So you heard what Jeff said.

I'm not going to try to say it.

Do you know what medication he's referring to?

We'll get to why he's referring to it in a moment.

Yes, Ciprofloxacin is an antibiotic.

Cipro is what most people probably, if you recognize that, that's what you might have heard.

Oh, for short.

Yeah, Cipro.

So what would you say about Cipro?

I looked into Cipro specifically for, I guess, reasons we will get to, just to make sure I knew the data on that.

And Cipro, actually, it does not appear that it becomes toxic over time.

At least we have no evidence at this point.

We've never tested every single expired bottle of Cipro in history, but we don't have any evidence of it becoming dangerous or losing a lot of potency in some studies up to...

even maybe a decade.

So my biggest fear when I see a bottle of unused antibiotic is not, is it dangerous?

Because while I would not advise a patient to take it, it's probably okay.

My bigger concern is that we should always finish our antibiotics when we are prescribed them and not save them around for future use.

It's more that issue as opposed to the pills themselves being dangerous.

But Dr.

Sidney McElroy,

what kind of

human monster, nay, hypocrite, would be hoarding Cipro after its expiration date.

I can't think of such a person, nor could I imagine seeing photographic evidence of such a crime.

Wait a minute.

Jeff, I just scrolled down past the homework you assigned me.

Tell me what I'm seeing here.

I believe you are seeing the drug that we just said, which I am not good at saying, with Yael's name on it.

This is from your shared drug drawer.

It is an unfinished bottle of Cipro prescribed to Yael.

Date filled 222.

My wife's birthday, by the way, 2018.

Discard after 222, 2019.

That's in the past, Yael.

That is very true.

And, you know, believe it or not, I don't go to the drawer daily to monitor the expiration dates and get rid of things the day after they expire.

Because it kind of seems you do

check.

At least when it comes to Jeff.

I think this should be a once-a-year kind of activity, a day where we, you know, put on some music, go through the drawer, and look at expiration dates.

So this is an example of one that has expired a few months ago, and I have yet to get rid of it.

Why didn't you finish your course of antibiotics, Yale?

I travel a lot to developing countries and I get this medication in case something happens while I'm away.

So I did not have to use it.

I see.

Okay, that's fair.

I'm not in trouble.

Well, what we're trying to do,

we're trying to keep super bugs from becoming antibiotic resistant by pumping all these antibiotics out unless they're absolutely needed.

So in that sense, you are contributing to the global super flu that will destroy us all.

But in the small sense, no harm, no foul.

These drugs didn't do any harm.

They just sat in a drawer.

Now they're old.

Throw them away.

Yell.

Put that on your list.

And just to clarify, I would never just throw away medication.

There are very safe kind of return programs at pharmacies.

So just want to make sure that Jeff knows that as well, that we're not just planning to throw them in the garbage, but there are ways to return them and they're safely disposed of by professionals.

I didn't even, it never even occurred to me to do that.

Even the creams?

Wow.

I think the pharmacy accepts all types of medication.

Okay.

Hmm.

Yael,

how do you feel about the fact

that Jeff, when submitting

a picture of your personal medication, kindly redacted your last name, but certainly felt comfortable revealing to the entire podcast listening world

that you needed an antibiotic?

He will do anything to win, apparently.

But, you know, we're all human, and I don't think it's nothing.

Luckily, he didn't, you know, submit my embarrassing rash cream, so I'm okay.

What is the work that takes you to developing countries?

I work for an international development nonprofit.

Awesome.

So here's the thing.

Based on the consultation with Sidney McElroy, It doesn't seem like there's a lot of harm being done here.

And Yell, even your complaint did not suggest that you were worried that by taking these old pills, Jeff was going to turn into a Benadryl Hulk or something.

Be turned into some kind of creature.

So why can't you just leave it alone?

Why can't you just shove his stuff to the other side of the drawer and get fresh stuff for yourself?

Well, I can.

It does feel a little silly having to go by and just seeing, you know, a number of the same medication

in the same place.

But I think it's just him being stubborn, and I want to kind of make a point that he doesn't always have to be stubborn.

Aaron Powell, is he stubborn in other ways?

You know, sometimes, yes.

Can you give me an example?

Well, I guess relating to kind of the medical field and following the rules out there.

So one example is that he insists that it's totally fine to use Q-tips in your ear and clean your ears every day, where I've heard over and over again that it's really bad for you, and doctors say that you shouldn't do it.

And he ignores all of that and just decides that that's the right thing to do.

So, that's one example of being stubborn.

Is he cleaning the weird folds of the outer ear, or is he sticking that Q-tip right into the ear canal?

You know, I haven't watched closely, but I can imagine it's all of it.

Well, Jeff, you can speak for yourself.

If you can hear me speaking now, Jeff,

what?

Do you

stick the Q-tip brand cotton-tipped baton into your ear canal?

I am aware of the risks and I do so very carefully.

Yes or no, sir.

Yes or no.

That's yes.

Yeah, so do I.

Dr.

McElroy, are Jeff and I going to pierce our eardrums?

Are we bad guys?

I mean, I tell patients specifically not to do that in part because of the fear of piercing your eardrum, but more so just because you tend to indiscriminately shove the wax further back as opposed to being able to blindly kind of dislodge it.

And so you can end up with more wax impaction than you had to begin with.

So I tell patients because I practice in West Virginia and I'm a folksy family doctor type, I tell them not to stick anything in their ear that's smaller than their elbow.

Good advice.

Good advice.

Yael, you're saying that Jeff is something of a medical contrarian.

I suppose, yes.

Or like a conventional wisdom contrarian.

He doesn't Doesn't like the rules.

You don't like the rules, do you, Jeff?

I must admit

I'm a weird dude with my weird systems.

The most pervasive weird dude system is I know better than the rules.

These are just words written by an expert on a piece of paper.

I know what's really true.

How long were you guys dating before you moved in?

I'm presuming that you're a romantic relationship, right?

I shouldn't presume anything, I suppose.

That is correct.

How long have you guys been seeing each other?

And how long ago did you move in?

I guess like a year.

We've been together almost two and a half years and we moved in together almost a year ago.

Okay.

By the way, Jeff, probably you should learn those dates.

Try to remember.

Future reference helps.

You don't want your relationship to expire.

Good tips.

Exactly.

That does have a shelf life.

You notice when I noticed that Yael Cipro expired on 222, first thing I thought of, oh, it's my wife's birthday.

I remember.

I remember things.

Well, I know her birthday.

You know her birthday?

That's good.

Yes.

So, Jeff, since you moved in together, have you discovered other ways in which Yael is, you know, policing your lifestyle, trying to get that Q-tip out of your ear, trying to say your drugs are too old?

Any other things you do wrong?

around that the new house that you share that you'd like to bring up at this time that might establish a pattern of invasiveness on Yael's part or weirdness on your part?

That's a good question.

You would think I would have thought of this before.

Yeah, most guys just think they're right, so they don't come up with arguments.

I think I'm right, but I also have an argument.

Yeah, I think that there are some things, but I'm having trouble

with a specific example at this moment.

Well, why don't you take a moment to think up some examples?

Because I think I've heard everything I need to.

I'm going to climb into the drawer of drugs they have here at WERU,

which is deep and wide, and I will come out in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Yael, I have a question for you.

How is Jeff with other expired things like milk and other types of food?

Yeah, same thing.

I don't think he'd drink milk or eat cheese at 14 years old, but definitely he laughs at the idea of an expiration date and will smell something.

And if it smells okay, well, he'll eat it.

Now, Jeff, it seems like the only dangerous expired medication that you have in the house, according to the good doctor Sidney McElroy, is Yael's very own Cipro.

Do you think Yael should be forced to throw the Cipro out?

Absolutely.

So you are in favor of throwing out expired medication?

Uh-huh.

Prescription, for sure, because it's normally designed to be used immediately.

So it's kind of different.

Well, we'll be right back and see what Judge John Hodgman decides.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother me for 15 years, and

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened, and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So, let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news, we still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Joel.

What, Judge?

I had some really old day quilts

when I was in that drawer of drugs here at W-E-R-U.

You know what I'm talking about.

Yeah, my heart rate is raised.

These are 10 years old and they're still working.

That's the community for you.

So, thank you so much to Dr.

Sidney McElroy, co-host of the Sawbones podcast and co-author of the Sawbones book,

for

keeping us on the medical straight and narrow here.

You know, I did a little internet poking around and discovered independently, independently, some of the homework that Jeff tried to make me read in terms of the studies of these older pills.

And I discovered the same thing that Dr.

Sidney McElroy discovered and Jeff discovered, is that

based on the data we have, based at least on pills that were stored properly and in their medication, the pills really do retain their efficacy

years past their expiration date.

I think Jeff probably is mad that they conducted those studies without him as a test subject if he should find one that he can sign up for so he can eat all the pills he wants to and thumb his nose at Big Pharma's expiration date recommendations, which you know seem conservative based on this evidence.

I, like Jeff, am a q-tip ear sticker inner.

I obviously do not recommend this lifestyle for everyone.

I've never experienced having impacted earwax due to this habit, unless I've only ever experienced impacted earwax because I do it all the time.

But there are definitely recommendations and rules made by companies and printed on their boxes

that have, let's say, at least as much to do

with cautioning against the stupidest possible behavior and preventing people from getting ruinously hurt and protecting the company from a certain liability, right?

So there might be someone who is dumb enough to put a Q-tip deep, deep, deep into their ear canal because they want to touch their brain.

And Q-tip doesn't want that legal heat.

So they say, keep it out of there.

And I think that's probably wise for most people to not put things in their ears.

I've gotten that Q-tip in there.

beyond a point of comfort of myself and I've had to pull, you know, I pushed the envelope a little in the ear canal and it's not fun.

It's no good.

I could have caused some problems there.

Not saying I'm better than anyone.

Saying

expiration dates are part of a way that definitely food companies are preventing us from getting listeria, for example, preventing us from getting too reckless and drinking milk once it's chunky and dying, right?

But those expiration dates are absolutely conservative, especially the sell-buy dates, which don't indicate expiration at all, right?

That's just when the supermarket is determined, this has to be your problem now because we're not going to store this anymore.

And once it's your problem,

you know, it's up to you.

Use your best judgment.

I think that Jeff is correct in his assessment that most of the old drugs he has in the old drug drawer probably work pretty good.

Still, despite what the company is telling him, which is go buy more of our drugs.

However, there are two exceptions, one that Jeff accepts and one that Jeff is hesitant to accept.

The one exception, as pointed out by Sidney McElroy, is that there are certain prescription drugs that truly go bad and not only lose efficacy, but can cause either active damage or cause damage because you think you're taking something that's good for you, but it's not doing what it's supposed to be doing.

And Jeff acknowledges that if a doctor, I'm glad to hear that if a doctor says throw this away after a certain period of time,

that you should follow that rule because medical advice is different from commercial product advice.

And I hope and trust, Jeff, and Yael,

no, I know Yael, you're on it.

You're going to take the Cipra to a safe drug disposal facility at your local Rite Aid or whatever, which I've never even heard of, but so that just shows how on top of it you are.

But if a doctor tells you to do something, I would do it.

And Dr.

McElroy's patients, if you're listening, don't put a q-tip in your ear.

Your doctor tells you not to do it, and she knows better for you than a podcaster does, believe me.

We need to acknowledge and respect expertise in this world.

It's something that's become awfully degraded, in no small part due to my making fun of expertise for many years in the daily show.

But in general, culture has drifted away from acknowledging and respecting expertise, data, and science, and instead listening to podcasters and conspiracy theorists saying it's all BS.

And I appreciate, Jeff, that you do seem to set a limit on your know-it-all-ness when it comes to to prescriptions, drugs, and doctors' orders.

There's multiple plural failures there, but I just have to keep talking because I'm just really riding this 14-year-old Dayquil High right now.

The other exception, which maybe Jeff doesn't accept the rationale for, but it's going to happen anyway, and I don't think your life is going to be burdened, is you got to get rid of those old ointments.

Get rid of those old ointments.

And here's why.

We don't have, or at least not, you didn't send me any homework, Jeff, as to the efficacy of ointments as they get older.

Our own resident medical expert, Dr.

Sidney McElroy, suggested that ointments may lose efficacy compared to pills and capsules.

I don't know what data point she's looking at there, how much of that is studies versus anecdotal life of a doctor in West Virginia.

But I think it stands to reason that ointments after 15 years are probably ready to see the garbage pile because whatever the medical compounds in there, there's also a lot of, you know, oils and stearates and, you know, that stuff breaks down and becomes stuff that you don't want on your body.

And also,

I know from very, very, very personal experience that there is a distinct difference.

between using years-old cortisone cream and brand new cortisone cream because the brand new cortisone cream doesn't make you want to cry.

I don't know what the difference is.

I don't know what's going on in that ointment, but that old stuff turned bad.

Any compounds, poultices, pastes, unguents, or ointments that are past their expiration date, take them to your locally sanctioned, responsible unguint disposal center.

And then, Yael, you can have some fun buying some brand new ointments.

But I don't think you have a problem with those pills, nor yell should I think that Jeff should have any problem with you getting your own stash of new ibuprofens that are for your use only if that's what you want.

When you are living together, there are certain things that it is okay to keep apart.

Toiletries and personal medications, among them.

You don't have to use the same mouthwash.

You don't have to use the same toothpaste.

You don't have to use the same pills.

As I've often said and recommended, people who are living together, who have the means, should sleep in the largest bed possible.

And many marriages would benefit from having two separate bedrooms in two separate villas separated by a beautiful reflecting pool.

And you visit each other from time to time, like ancient Rome.

While that is an extreme case, I certainly think that it is perfectly respectable to keep your own separate temperature-controlled Tylenol vaults if that's what you want.

Because part of medicine is feeling positive about your course of treatment.

And if you don't feel good, yeah, I'll take janky old ibuprofens.

Get some fresh ones for yourself.

But I don't see any reason why he's got to throw away all of his old toys just because he moved in with you.

Keep your fun old drugs minus the ointments, Jeff.

This is the sound of a gabble.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Jeff, are you willing to get rid of your ointments and yet hang on to your pills?

I will follow the judge's orders.

What do you think, Yael?

Is this a fair ruling that you at least have succeeded in getting rid of the polysporin and the bacetracin and the Benadryl cream, et cetera, while having to endure some potentially mildly ineffective Cipro or ibuprofen or aspirin?

Yes, the ointments were definitely the grosser of them all.

And if he wants to come and borrow my ibuprofen when his headache still remains, I'll consider giving him some.

Well, thank you, Jeff and Yael, for being on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thanks for having us.

Thank you.

And let me thank, once again, Sidney McElroy for joining us as our expert witness.

You can listen to her on Sawbones on the Maximum Fun network, as well as Still Buffering.

That's still a going concern, is it not, Sidney?

Yes.

Yes, it is.

Yeah, the wonderful podcast with you and your sisters.

That's right, where we talk about teen life.

And

Sawbones, the book, is available at bookstores everywhere in the world.

Sydney, what a pleasure to talk to you.

I hope you and your family are doing great.

Oh, thank you.

Another case expired like some bad Benadryl.

Before we dispense some swift justice, we want to thank Brian Colavito for naming this week's episode.

Side effects may include justice.

If you'd like to name a future episode, follow Judge John Hodgman on Facebook.

We regularly put out a call for submissions there.

Follow us on Twitter.

I'm at Monty Belmonte.

And Judge Hodgman is at Hodgman.

Hashtag your JudgeJohn Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho, and check out the maximum fund subreddit to discuss this episode.

And we're on Instagram at JudgeJohnHodgman.

Make sure to follow us there for evidence and other fun stuff.

This week's episode was recorded by John Rigatuso at Clean Cuts, where they have all the freshest Bassetreson in Washington, D.C., and by Joel Mann, the nighttime sniffling, sneezing, coughing, aching, stuffy head fever, so you can rest, engineer, at WERU in Orland, Orland, Maine.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Now let's get to the swift justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

Ready, Judge Hodgman?

I am ready.

Lauren says, my mother briefly lived in Illinois.

She insists the name of the state is pronounced Illinois.

My entire family has pleaded our case, but it only makes her irrationally irate.

Please help us.

Okay.

So I got to use Wikipedia.

I always enjoy it.

And not surprisingly, Illinois is derived from a French word.

It was

the name ascribed to the Native Americans around the Great Lakes area by French Catholic missionaries and explorers.

Illinois, it's a French approximation word, an imitation from the Miami, Illinois verb irenoi,

meaning he speaks the regular way.

Miami, Illinois is a language group.

The Miami are a native peoples.

The Miami River in Florida is named for the Miami people, and the city of Miami is named for that river, and that leads to the geographically appropriate but still confusing, maybe most confusing, university in the United States, Miami University of Ohio, which paradoxically is in Oxford.

The Miami people are now in Oklahoma.

They're not in the Great Lakes region anymore.

Why?

Because of forced mass migration called the Trail of Tears.

Never forget, we stole this country.

And technically, we are all saying all of the place names wrong.

None of us speaks the regular way.

That said, there is a place called Illinois.

Now, there are plenty of places that Americanize their previous French names.

Callas, Maine, for example, Versailles, Missouri, or Missouri.

But I could not find evidence of a consistent or proper ingrained regional dialectal pronunciation of Illinois as Illinois,

other than on that Surf Jan Steve Hands album.

So stop it, Lauren's mom.

Illinois.

It's called Illinois.

Right, Joel Man?

Illinois.

Illinois, right, Monty Belmonte?

Correct.

Since this is our last summertime fun time

episode with you, Monty Belmonte, let me just say a special thank you, as always, to you.

It is always so much fun to have you on the podcast.

Thank you for being here.

And you can listen to Monty on the radio at WRSI,

accessible at 93.9 under your your frequency modulation dial in Northampton, Massachusetts, and environs, or all over the world at WRSI.com.

And Monty,

you now have a podcast of your own, do you not?

Yes, I do.

It's like my radio show without the music, which we are legally not allowed to present to you via podcast.

It's called A Week of Mornings.

So it's all my interviews and conversations and phone calls with listeners, et cetera.

A week of mornings with Monty Belmonte.

Here's the thing, Monty Belmonte.

I love your show on WRSI the the River.

You know what the worst thing about it is?

The music.

The music.

I don't want to hear that music.

Some people actually like it.

I know.

Some people like music.

That's fine.

But I'm just saying you act as though stripping the music out is a bug.

But to me, it's a feature.

Because I get to hear all

you being funny, you being smart and interesting, you interviewing celebrities, both national and local.

You talk to wine experts and pet experts, and you have a Spanish word of the day.

It's a lot of fun.

And I encourage everyone who enjoys Monty

here on this program to go listen to him on his own program.

And he is my friend.

Joel Mann, I've been sitting here across from you for a while here at WERU.

You mentioned that we're in pledge drive zone

for WERU.

And this episode will come out just as the pledge drive is wrapping up.

Correct.

So it's not too late to go to weru.org, you are an org.

and donate some money and listen to the station.

Listen to the station you're donating to.

Thank you, Judge.

It's not all Joe Bird and the field hippies.

It's all kinds of music and all kinds of main life and advocacy, and it's a lot of fun.

It's just been a pleasure.

And you can listen.

And, you know, the summer isn't over yet.

Please go and see Joel and the Night Flight Pioneers, also known as Day and Night Jazz Trio, at the Pentago at Inn on the porch every Tuesday evening, starting at

5 p.m.

5 to 8 Tuesdays.

All right, folks, this is Monty's part, but I'm going to do it anyway because it's fun.

That's about it for this week's episode.

Submit your cases at maximumfund.org JJ H O

or just email me, Hodgman at maximumfund.org.

No case too small.

We read some all.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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