Check Pleas

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, check please.

Samantha files suit against her mother, Tina.

When they go out together, Tina always insists on paying.

Samantha says she's an adult who works full-time and she's happy to pitch in, but Tina just wants to take care of her daughter.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents presents an obscure cultural reference.

Who made this man a bailiff anyway?

I did, sir.

He's my cousin.

Well, who is he?

He's a piehole, sir.

I know that.

What's his name?

That is his name, sir.

Piehole, Major Piehole.

Ah, and his cousin?

He's a piehole, too.

Gunner's mate, first class, Philip Piehole.

I knew it.

I'm surrounded by pieholes.

Keep firing, pieholes.

Bailiff Jesse, swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever?

Yes, I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he pays for all restaurant meals with dishwashing?

We will do our best.

Yes.

Very well.

Judge Hodgman.

Samantha and Tina, you may be seated.

For an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, can either of you name the piece of culture I referenced when I entered the courtroom?

Samantha, let's start with you.

What's your guess?

Daughters go first.

I feel like I should know this because it sounds very familiar.

Yes, you should.

I know.

How old are you?

28.

You know what?

Maybe not.

Maybe not.

I feel like I'm going to lose nerd cred, but.

No, you don't need to worry about credibility with a weird 46-year-old dude.

You're young.

Be up.

Don't worry about internet dudes.

I don't know.

Maybe white Christmas, maybe?

It's the Christmas season.

I'm going to go with that.

Well, we are recording this in the run-up to the pagan holiday known as Christmas.

But this recording will come out after that.

But I'll enter it into the guest book.

You never know.

Yeah.

You can hear my Sharpie working away here as I inscribe it into the official guest book of Judge John Hodgman.

Oh, Tina, go ahead.

What's your guess?

Oh,

I am trying desperately to think what you are referring to, but I am at a loss.

So let me think back.

Cast your mind back, Tina.

I am trying, but it doesn't work very well, I think.

Must be the age limit.

Usually it's like a movie or maybe a TV show or a quote related to the discussion at hand.

You know, I came in prepared, but that was not where I was going.

Oh, what was your preparation?

What was my preparation?

Well, we both had prepared guesses, but you totally threw us off with that reading.

Yeah, I was not going for the the pie man.

Yeah, the pie hole direction.

You know what?

Which one of you guessed my dinner with Andre, since this is a fight over who pays for dinner?

Neither.

Neither, and that would never have come up on my mind.

Well, so tell me the guesses you prepared.

This is all in fun

until I deliver my verdict, at which point it's deathly serious.

Yes.

You know, I was thinking that I was going to come in here with the battle hem of the tiger mom because

that's how I feel she was the direction Sammy was going because she thought I was being too controlling when it came to paying for certain things when we were out together.

So that was going to be where I thought you were going.

By the way, that only would have applied had you been insisting on paying for her violin lessons.

Oh, well, you know what?

I tried to, I think the majority of it almost applied.

That was the one thing I did not make my children do.

I guess.

Well, no, you did make me take.

You did.

Yeah, I forgot.

I forgot.

I forgot what a monster you are, Mom.

Oh, it's a flute.

I'm sorry.

You're right.

It's a flute, and you're still in your closet, too.

Yeah, dusty.

Yeah.

Not practicing that much, are you, Samantha?

No.

Just gathering dust, the flute that I paid lessons for.

Oh, that's pretty much a conversation.

Yeah, paid dearly for it.

But, you know, we've let that one pass.

Have we?

We've gotten.

Yes, we have.

No, it doesn't.

It has because I forgot about it until just now.

So actually, it has passed.

Samantha, what was your original guess?

Mine was either going to be Grey Gardens or Miss Manners.

Gray Gardens or Miss Manners.

Well, I do like Gray Gardens, and I'm fine with Miss Manners.

But all of those guesses are, guess what, wrong.

Sorry.

We kind of figured.

Yeah.

We tried our best.

My original idea, there is a supercut of every time

the words, check please, are mentioned in a movie that circulated online on YouTube a couple of years ago that was really funny.

Because people are constantly saying, uh, check, please, in various kinds of comedic situations in movies as disparate as The Graduate and Dumb and Dumber.

And maybe My Dinner with Andre.

I don't know.

I never saw it.

Can you believe that?

Can you forgive me, Wallace Sean?

Wallace Sean does not forgive you, sir.

Oh, I know it.

He is a cruel master.

I know in my heart he doesn't.

But, so what I wanted to do was just say, check please,

and then have you guys guess what movie it was from, and then I would say, I'll guess this is all wrong.

And then I would list all of the movies in that supercut.

But there was no list online of all those movies.

And I was going to have to go through and figure out which movie every movie was.

And that was too laborious.

So instead, I chose the one movie in there where they say, check, please, twice.

There's one movie in which specifically John Candy says, check please twice.

and that movie is Space Balls by Mel Brooks.

Judge Hodgman, did you know that we have a listener who hosts a podcast that is one of those movie minute-by-minute podcasts, and it's about My Dinner with Andre?

No, I didn't know that.

Yeah,

his name's Woody Battalia.

He's

upstate, yeah, in upstate New York, Max Funster, and the show is called My Minute with Andre.

Check, please.

Moving on to the case.

Sometimes you guys go out and have mother-daughter meals,

and Tina always pays.

And Samantha, you're mad about it.

Tell me why, Samantha.

Well, because she says, like, oh, yeah, yeah, I'll let you treat.

Don't worry about it.

And then we get there, and then she steals the check from me, and then I politely take it.

Polite's an overstatement, I feel like.

She grabs it very angrily from me and rips it out of my hand.

Not angrily, with authority.

There is a difference.

That's all.

There is a difference.

And then she pays for everything, even when she agrees to it.

And we had set up a system where, you know, I would try to pay one time and then she would pay.

But then my memory was bad and then she ended up paying every time anyway.

Well, she would ask me, did I pay you for that?

And I'd just say, yeah, you did.

Or even just lied to her?

No, it wasn't.

No, it's not.

It's not lying.

Well, no, if it's saying the opposite of the truth, it's lying.

Come on, we have to have some sense of the words.

Well, no, you're just kind of leaving out vital information.

It's not lying.

You're just forgetting vital information and leaving it out.

Tina, Tina?

Yes.

Your daughter says to you, did I pay you back for last time?

And you know she didn't, but you said, yes, you did.

That's not lying by omission.

That's lying.

You're a liar, madam.

I don't know.

You're omitting the truth.

I just, you know, you leave out certain facts.

It's not lying.

You're just leaving out certain facts that might cause stress to another person, and therefore you're trying to relieve their stress and anxiety by creating a better situation.

You're technically leaving out certain facts and adding in certain lies.

No, I'm not adding.

I don't ever embellish.

I just, I'm very short and to the point.

Just a brief, clear lie.

Just a brief, clear statement of facts.

No, a brief, clear statement of falsehood.

Madam, you're a liar, and I will

brook no more of this.

Samantha, I have some questions for you.

Okay.

We've established that you're 28 years old.

I am.

You have a job.

I do.

You're not an impoverished person.

No, I am not.

You can occasionally pay for...

What do you usually meet for?

Lunch or dinner or breakfast?

It can be either lunch or dinner, depending what we're meeting up for.

Or many other things as well.

I've had it enough, madam.

I won't hear any more of your lies for the moment.

Talking to Samantha.

Oh, Oh, sorry.

Give me a, for instance, Samantha.

Paint me a word picture about a situation where you might meet up with your mom.

You guys are in New York.

You're at Argo Studios there in New York with Paul.

I am in Brooklyn at the moment.

Do you both live in New York, Samantha?

Yes, we live

like an hour and a half upstate.

Okay.

So, well, thanks for coming into the city.

Yeah, no problem.

And say hi to Woody Battalia for us.

Yes.

Yes, we will.

Are you going to go out to dinner after this, do you think?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, that probably.

And who's going to pay for dinner?

Well, my mom has tried to pay for everything so far today, and I had to like fight her to pay for coffee earlier.

She almost tackled me, but she didn't because she was too distracted by reading the signs.

I'll tell you what.

I will decide who pays for dinner tonight.

I mean, you can do that.

I'm not entirely sure my mother will listen.

Oh, you mean, Tina, you won't submit to the authority of this fake internet court?

If I order Samantha to pay for dinner, you might try to subvert my authority?

No.

What I understand is this.

Sometimes you guys get together for a meal.

You will make an agreement that you will allow Samantha to pay, and then you will renege on that agreement and with authority, pry the check from her hands.

True or false?

And I will remind you you're under a fake oath.

Okay.

Yeah, I would say, okay, I would like to clarify sometimes.

True or false, madam.

True, okay, true.

True.

Okay.

Now you may clarify.

I will allow the clarification.

But I want the truth from you, and I want it plainly, and I want it simply, and I want it to resonate with you.

You are telling the truth.

That is how I might find in your favor.

This is the rules as they've come to evolve as we have been going out as mother and daughter.

Whoever can get out the credit card first is the one who pays.

I happen to be the champion.

I end up paying.

I don't have a problem with that.

You snooze, you lose.

If I get it out first, I pay for it.

That's how we do it.

So.

Wait a minute, but this is nothing.

I would just like to say this.

Madam, you've already admitted to grabbing the check from your daughter's hands.

Does that not suggest that she got to it first and then you stole it from her?

No,

that's the paper part.

That's not the credit card part.

Samantha, is it true you're not fast enough with the credit card?

Are you slow walking this because you really want mommy to pay for you?

No, I try to grab it, but she is very quick.

She may be like small and petite and cute looking, but she is like a monster, let me tell you.

Oh, yeah.

No,

I'm not even near her, but I'm afraid of her right now.

She's already revealed herself to be an aggressive dissembler.

What else is she aggressive?

What else does she have up her sleeve?

I'll say assertive, authoritative dissembler.

I would like to think assertive.

I just believe, I just try to do what's what's right.

That's all.

Why is it right for you to always pay,

even if you have made an agreement, a verbal contract, to allow Samantha to pay?

Why is it important for you to pay?

I don't always pay.

However, what it comes down to is this.

My daughter has worked very hard to where she has gotten.

She's worked without asking from

myself or my husband for anything.

She paid for school on her own.

She worked three jobs on her own, had her own apartment, paid rent, fed herself, had a car, on three jobs and graduate work, and she did that all and very hard, never asked for a dime for anybody, ever.

Samantha, that's amazing.

Yes.

So if I am going to grab a check out of this girl's hand, I am doing it because I am honoring her dedication to where she got today.

And I am glad that I'm on the radio and on the podcast because I am happy that the world let me reassure you you are not on the radio but go on well

well

out there on the interwebs we'll say

okay okay and I understand that where she's living is she's on her own and she's still working very hard and every now and then I understand that it gets a little hard to make ends meet so if I can do this for her I am willing to do it and I understand it makes her upset but you know as a mother I just find that there's got to be certain rewards in life.

And if I can do this,

that's what I will do.

But is that a reward for her or a reward for you, for you to pay?

No, I mean, I want her to know that, you know, she,

you know, at the same time, this girl pays a lot for me.

All right.

And I will put this in my defense.

Please.

Also,

while she was going to graduate school, had three jobs, paying her rent and feeding feeding herself, this girl also bought me tickets to go see Andre Bocelli

with very good seats for my birthday.

Very nice.

Yes.

And dinner.

And I did let her pay for that.

So, you know, how can you not do something once in a while?

And, you know, above all else, we enjoy our food, my daughter and I.

We enjoy many places, but I know this is a treat.

To have someone treat you to dinner, I think, is a very honorable thing to do.

So I will do that.

I just think that is showing honor to the person that you're sitting with.

So I want to show honor to my daughter because each and every day I bow down to her because I am deeply respectful of what she's accomplished, and I will do so on her behalf by doing that.

So is it for me?

No, I really want her to realize that I am honoring who she is as a person, as an individual, a young woman, and what she's accomplished

as an independent person.

So that's all I have to say.

I will, for the moment,

accept that you might be telling the truth when you express those nice emotions.

That is honest the truth.

Mm-hmm.

Or masterful emotional manipulation of this judge.

But we shall see.

No, I would never use emotional

no.

Oh, I heard you guilt tripping her about the flute even before we got started, madam.

Well, you know, I forgot about that until you brought it up.

I just want to let you know.

Okay.

Fair enough.

Just so.

Believe me, if she's going to threaten you, she will do it physically, not verbally.

Well, no.

Well, wait a minute.

Samantha, why are you constantly accusing your mom of being a physically intimidating bully and monster?

Is there some side to her that I'm not understanding?

No, no, my mom is an incredibly lovely person.

All right.

So let's stop making her into a bully, okay?

Okay.

Boy.

Like mother, like daughter, both dissemblers, liars, manipulators.

Let's take a quick recess to hear about one of our sister shows here on the maximumfund.org network.

When we come back, more from Samantha and her mother, Tina, on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask you a question.

Did you know that most of the dishes served at Tom Colicchio's craft restaurant are made in, made in pots and pans?

It's true.

The braised short ribs, made in, made in.

The Rohan Duck Riders of Rohan, made in, made in.

That heritage pork chop that you love so much.

You got it.

It was made in, made in.

But made in isn't just for professional chefs, it's for home cooks too.

And even some of your favorite celebratory dishes can be amplified with made-in cookware.

It's the stuff that professional chefs use, but because it is sold directly to you, it's a lot more affordable

than some of the other high-end brands.

We're both big fans of the carbon steel.

I have a little carbon steel skillet that my mother-in-law loves to use because cast iron is too heavy for her, but she wants that non-stick.

And I know that she can, you know, she can heat that thing up hot if she wants to use it hot.

She can use it to braise if she wants to use it to braise.

It's an immensely useful piece of kitchen toolery.

And it will last a long time.

And whether it's griddles or pots and pans or knives or glassware or tableware, I mean, you know, Jesse, I'm sad to be leaving Maine soon, but I am very, very happy to be getting back to my beloved Made In Entree Bowls.

All of it is incredibly solid, beautiful, functional, and as you point out, a lot more affordable because they sell it directly to you.

If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common.

They're made in, made in.

For full details, visit madeincookware.com.

That's M-A-D-E-I-N Cookware.com.

Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Court's back in session.

You're listening to Check, please.

Samantha thinks her mother, Tina, should let her pay for a meal every once in a while.

You've heard why Tina's opposed.

Let's get back into the courtroom to hear more about Samantha's side.

Samantha, answer these questions and answer them truthfully.

Okay.

Did you put yourself through graduate school?

I did.

What'd you study?

I studied library science with a focus on archives.

Seemed like you had to think about it there for a second.

Are you telling me the truth?

Yeah, it's just complicated to say.

Library science with a focus on archives.

And you're employed in that field now?

Yes, I'm working as an assistant archivist.

And where in New York are you guys, upstate?

I live in Beacon, New York.

Oh, sure.

I know Beacon very well.

Fantastic.

They call that David Rees town.

Oh, do they?

I did not know that.

He's one of Beacon's most famous ex-residents.

David Rees is my friend, who's a writer and cartoonist and a performer, a host of a fantastic TV show called Going Deep with David Reese that isn't on the air anymore.

And he doesn't live in Beacon anymore, but I know that town very well.

It's a lot of fun up there.

So there you are.

You've gotten your MLS

with a focus on archives.

You've got a job in that field.

You are self-sufficient.

You paid for all this education yourself.

Yes.

Fantastic.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

And now you're reaping the rewards.

The money pit that comes with a career in archivism.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Working for a museum is not the way to make money, let me tell you.

All the white cotton gloves you can wear.

That's right.

Oh, it's so true.

But you make enough that you're able to treat your mom to an Andrea Bocelli concert.

Yes, that was when I was in grad school, still.

I did that.

Wow.

You must have gone into serious credit card debt.

Um, no, actually, not.

I'm very good with my finances.

She's very frugal.

I think you are.

So, why is it so hard for you to accept this gesture from your mom, which clearly is designed to honor you and

reassert her motherly authority and rob you of the independence that you worked so hard to achieve?

What my mom did not tell you was that she is currently paying her way to go back to school and paying it all on her on her own.

We're not talking about me right now.

I will allow it, madam.

Tell me the side of the story that I'm not getting from your mom.

Well, she works very hard herself.

She currently works like a...

almost full-time job.

She's going back to school to get

her associate's degree, which is I'm very proud of because she's working very hard at that.

And I feel like she takes care of the whole family, my dad, my brother, and everyone.

And I feel like someone should take care of her her once in a while because she doesn't, she wants to do everything for everyone.

Like even this morning, she baked like muffins for us before we went out.

And I feel like she should let, you know, me take care of her once in a while.

Because I even had to buy those Andre Appicelli tickets in secret and not tell her about it until like a couple days before.

Because otherwise, she, because even after I told her, she was trying to give me money, even though it was her birthday present.

That is true.

Well, you guys are really adorable.

Why can't you just resolve this simply by saying you're going to take turns paying?

I wish.

That would be a great solution.

I'm very happy with that.

Tina, why is that not acceptable to you?

I can't let go.

I try.

I wish you'd.

Once you grab that check, you cannot let go.

I just, you know what?

Because then in my mind, I just, it just goes back to the fact that, you know, she's worked really, really hard.

Why should I not share the abundance of what I have?

And

there you have it.

Do you have a general discomfort with people treating you, Tina?

When you go out with friends, does the same sort of thing happen?

I may not tackle them, but I do treat them, yes.

Well, they can't all be as wonderful as your daughter.

You've got to have some really crappy friends that you don't want to reward with generosity.

Well, no, I mean, if I...

The people that I mostly, that I'm buying, if I go out and I buy coffee for before I go to work are generally just the girls that I work with.

Because we all help each other out, and every now and then we have a bad day and we need a drink.

So, if I'm coming into work and I'm buying myself a dirty chai, I buy somebody else, and I buy, you know, my friend Jody, I buy my friend Lisa, and then we all have a happy

we say cheers, and we all say, you know, it's going to be a good day.

And so I will buy them drinks.

I do that on numerous occasions.

Do you not like having people buy things for you?

I mean, when Samantha got you those Andrea Bocelli concert tickets, how did that make you feel?

I feel very, very lucky and blessed that I have a daughter.

I always say that my daughter loves me and it truly shows.

And she really, really does.

She cares for me in an incredible amount of ways.

And I really think she is my biggest gift in this whole wide world that I could ever have.

So it makes me feel, I don't know, it's kind of weird, but it makes me feel kind of selfish because I just think sometimes that as a mother, I should be the one doing the caregiving.

And I'm not old and gray and in my wheelchair and

mindless yet.

So, I just kind of feel

it's yes, is it hard for me?

It always is.

Yes.

I can't say more than that.

Did you go to the concert?

Oh, yes.

How was it?

Oh,

absolutely love Andrea Bocelli.

But you couldn't enjoy the concert because your daughter had given you the tickets.

It was a waste of free money.

No, that's what I was doing.

No, no, no.

I enjoyed it thoroughly.

Yeah, I had to hold her back.

She actually had to hold me back because we were on, I think we were like a couple of times, she had to hold me down because she thought I was going to jump over the

balcony because I got so excited.

Oh, did you go together?

Oh, yeah, of course.

Yes.

Yeah, we're also going to the Foo Fighters concert this summer together.

Yeah, that's right.

Who's paying for that one?

We actually split it.

I did let her split that one.

I don't see that there's a real problem here, Samantha.

You guys obviously love each other.

Your mom's a little aggro when it comes to paying.

Why should I even bother to insert myself?

Is there a greater problem that needs to be addressed here?

Is this just between you guys, or does your mom exhibit this behavior in other situations?

If it was only me, it would be fine because, you know, we have a thing.

We have a, you know, we have an understanding of how this goes, but she also does it to other people.

She's done it to my grandfather when he's attempted to pay.

She kind of tackled him.

Well, not really.

Not really.

Definitely not.

Now, listen, I really want to live in a civilization in which facts are facts and words have meaning.

So we've already established that,

Tina, you are post-truth.

That

when Samantha says, did I already pay you for this?

And you say, no, you already did, and that's a lie.

That's a lie.

But Samantha, I want you to not use the word tackle unless you're willing to back that up with evidence, video evidence of your mom throwing your grandfather to the ground.

I mean, shoulders did make contact.

Jeez.

All right.

So you're not lying.

Are you lying or is there actual physical

intervention when someone else tries to pick up the check?

Well,

I kind of grabbed the out of my husband's hand a few times, too.

And is this your paternal or maternal grandfather, Samantha?

My paternal.

So your father-in-law, Tina.

Correct.

And threw him to the ground?

Oh, well, I wouldn't do that.

He's, you know, he's halfway there.

Old and far now.

I wouldn't do that right now because, you know,

he has difficulty getting around and he does well by tripping himself sometimes.

So I would not do it anymore.

Describe what happened with the paternal grandfather, please.

Well, this was ⁇ this wasn't recent.

I will say that.

This was

writing of my tendencies, but

when I was much younger, probably like high school or middle school, so very many years ago.

There are no statute of limitations in the court of Judge John Hodgkin.

I am ready to condemn on the oldest of offenses or the offenses to the oldest.

So describe to me what happened.

I can't remember why we went out there, but it was the whole family.

So it was my grandfather, my grandmother, you know, my dad, my mom, me.

I think my brother.

I don't remember.

My brother.

My mother was.

Samantha.

Samantha.

I don't care about those people.

Yeah, I know.

Sorry.

I'm getting caught up in the details.

I know, I know.

Let's just focus in on the moment the check is brought to the table for dinner of unknown origin.

Your grandfather is reaching to pay for it.

What does your mom do?

Well, he has the check in his hand and he's looking at it.

And my mom, I think she like dove across the table and like grabbed it out of his hand.

She went across the table and grabbed it from him and said, I'm paying for this.

And he just looked at her and said, okay.

And then she paid for it.

Do you think that he was happy about this or did she rob him of the same pleasure that she takes in paying for other people?

Oh, no, he was very happy with it.

Oh, all right.

Granddad's a skin fluffed.

I get it.

Okay, I understand that.

I won't lie.

He was very pleased someone else was paying.

Samantha, tell me what happened with your friend Lis.

My mother's sighing, but,

well, my friends back in April, they had a fire in their house.

I'm sorry.

Yes, well, I mean, it's fine now.

They have bought a house, another house, so they're good.

But at the time, they had lost all their stuff and they were moving into an apartment they got from a friend and they were looking for a couch.

And my mom has an old futon that she desperately wanted to get rid of because my dad loved it and she's hated it since the day he's gotten it.

Well, it is a futon.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

So she's like, aha, this is the perfect opportunity to give this to someone else and not have this in my house anymore.

So we rented.

a truck and we drove it up to them in Albany and we gave it to them.

And to thank us, they're like, oh, we're going to take you out for

coffee.

Well, dinner and coffee.

I forgot about that.

So Liz,

being the smart person, having heard my stories about my mother, secretly paid for dinner.

But her husband, not being as prepared, did not realize when we went out for coffee, he attempted to pay.

And my mom kind of tackled him physically.

And they had a struggle.

That's that word again, Samantha.

Are you willing to back that up?

Yes, I am 100% willing to back this up.

She might actually be halfway around.

She ripped the credit card out of his hand.

And then, but he was very smart and pulled out another credit card from his wallet right away and handed it to the girl before my mom could pay for it.

I think I actually, believe it or not, I was really, yeah, just about, yeah.

Yeah, you guys were struggling.

I was.

I actually took the card out of his hand.

Yeah, you ripped it out.

Well, here, I'll interrupt you guys for a moment to say that Samantha has sent in an affidavit from Liz, her friend, describing the situation in detail about how Tina offered this futon that she quite rightly did not want in her home because it's a futon.

Why your husband likes it, Tina, I do not know, and I'm surprised you're still married, but good for you.

We're not sure either why he wanted it.

You tracked it down to list in her husband's place at your own expense.

Yes.

They attempted to treat you to a meal, and this is what she writes.

When my husband started to pay for the bill, Tina lunged across the table, grabbed the credit card he had, and hid it.

Luckily, he had a backup card that he ran up to the server with and successfully paid the bill.

And this is what Liz has to say to you, Tina, and I will await your response.

Okay.

In short, lady, you need to back off and let people try to assuage their guilt with money for all the nice things you do.

Sincerely, Liz.

Oh, yeah.

Well, okay, I have to say, She did actually have a very accurate description of the event,

I have to say.

I think that the restaurant that we were in at the time, people kind of slowly disappeared outside the door.

Yeah, they backed away.

They backed away pretty much.

Other patrons?

Other patrons, yeah.

I think so.

They kind of like

slinked very quietly out the door before they even got their coffee.

So I guess they were not.

I was going to ask, don't you take into consideration, madam, the distraction and upset that you might be causing in a business by tackling old men and young men, too.

Well, you know, it's grabbing things and making people run to the cashier and everything else.

It's like an octagon.

Well, yeah, you know, it's pretty much.

You know, if they would have just, you know, listened and say, okay, I'll take care of this.

Being the older person, I was going to take care of the younger people.

And, like, again, you know, they're the same as Samantha.

They had a hard time.

They lost their possessions.

So I was going to be, you know, just just try to be a good adult.

But you had already offered them so much in terms of

the expense of moving this futon,

the help in getting it all set up.

You know, so you'd already given them so much that almost made up for the fact that you were unloading a futon on them.

They wanted to express their appreciation

and you weren't going to let them.

No, I mean, you know, here's the thing:

it's not about the money.

It's about being able to help somebody out who's in need.

Sure.

And I'm not putting a dollar sign on that.

I mean, if I didn't want to do it, I wouldn't have agreed to any of it.

By the way, I'm really enjoying calling you Madam.

I never do this to anyone.

But I like taking.

As a compliment, I guess, maybe?

I don't know.

Well, it is a term of respect,

but also antagonism.

Yes.

I kind of got that, but I didn't want to admit to it.

Affectionate antagonism.

I hope you understand.

Okay.

I understand.

Okay.

If you had read my book, Vacation Land, True Stories from Painful Beaches.

And I did.

Did you?

I did.

We both did.

Wait a minute.

Did you each read the same copy?

Yes.

Oh, you thief.

I gave her my copy that I had.

Of course.

Now you see why I'm angry at you, madam, because your generosity is stealing money from me.

Oh, geez.

All right.

If you had read my book, Vacation Land, and truly gotten all of the deep, profound teachings from it,

you will remember that I write that the greatest version in my mind of being a grown-up

is not having a ton of money, but having enough security that you can take a breath, plan for the future, and have enough left over to be generous.

That being generous

is a profound inner pleasure if you are able to do it.

And you obviously take pleasure in that, don't you?

I do.

But is it right for you to hog all of that pleasure and deny it to others?

If the opportunity presents itself and...

Or I can snatch it out of someone else's hand.

Well, if the opportunity presents itself unguarded, then, you know, it's up for grabs.

I don't know what to say.

We'll put it this way.

If you're sitting at a table

and the check is just laying there and you have three or four people just staring at it, thinking, oh, who's going to pick that up?

You know what?

I can't deal with that.

Just give me me the check.

I'll pay for it.

I'll deal with it.

Madam.

That's how I look at it.

I don't need your benign hypotheticals.

I have specific real-life examples of you assaulting your father-in-law,

grabbing things out of people's hands, causing a ruckus in the restaurant, all for you to feed your addiction to generosity.

Deny it if you try, madam.

Deny it.

Try to deny it.

Well, I would like to deny it, yes.

But

I guess the

good job.

I don't know why I say deny it if you tried, that's not any words.

Samantha, how does it make you feel that your mom won't let you ever treat her willingly?

I mean, I would like to take care of her a little and help her out.

You know, I think she deserves to have people help her.

She's always helping everyone else and doing things for everyone.

I think, you know, it'd be nice to take care of her once in a while.

Do you think that she has difficulty accepting generosity from other people?

Yes.

And what do you think is behind that?

There's a whole list of reasons, probably.

I'm listening to quote Fraser Crane.

Well, I feel like my mother has not always had other people to depend on.

She's always had to take care of herself.

And now that I'm in a

more,

a more stable position than I have been in the past, I would like to, you know,

take care of her and help her out in, you know, ways that other people haven't always done.

Does it make you feel like a child when she won't let you pay?

Sometimes.

No, you can't say that.

She's kicking me under the table just to let you know.

That is not nice.

If you say that, I am sending you to bed without your dinner.

You are not allowed to say that.

She has just physically assaulted me.

I would like to put that in the record.

So noted.

Why did you react that way, Tina?

Well, I don't know.

I just, I don't know.

Maybe I just,

this is how I guess I see it.

If I should die tomorrow, I want her to have good memories and say, oh, yeah, I remember when mom did this for me.

So if I'm creating a good memory for her, then by all means, that's what I want to do.

And there's nothing else more than just a legacy of her knowing that her mom loves her.

And that's, I can't say more than that.

I just, I think it stems from like she had a health scare a few years ago.

And I think when that happened, I think that's when, you know, things got put into overdrive because, you know, we didn't know what was going to happen.

And so I think that kind of like,

you know, made her even more, you know, want to take care of me.

I'm sorry to hear about your health scare.

I hope you're feeling okay these days.

Oh, yeah, I'm fine.

I'm good.

The octagon has been very good for me.

It keeps, yeah, yeah, fighting over chicks keeps the blood moving, I'm sure.

It does, actually.

So, obviously, if I were to rule in your favor, Samantha, what would you want me to rule?

A 50-50 split?

Yeah, that would be amazing.

Okay.

And why is that not acceptable?

Would that be unbearable for you, Tina?

Would you make an argument that that would be emotionally challenging for you?

To let her pay half the time?

Emotionally challenging.

No, I think that's okay.

She says that now.

Right.

Well, we know that she's a liar.

She'll say anything to get past it and just get to that check and then steal it.

Well, that's probably not untrue.

I just have one question, though.

Yes.

So is there a time limit to

your decision?

I mean, is it like a 24-hour decision?

I'm not moving fast enough along for you.

No, no, no.

I mean, if you're, if you because we're getting to the verdict.

We're getting to the verdict.

She wants to know how long your verdict's going to last.

Is there an expiration date on your verdict?

That's all I want to know.

In perpetuity.

Forever.

Forever and ever and ever.

Amen.

Oh, okay.

I'll have to consider that then.

How long would you like the verdict window to last?

I thought maybe to the end of 2017 or something.

All right.

I'm going to give this some thought.

And what I'm going to decide on is, first of all,

would you guys know where you're going to go to dinner tonight?

Here you are in the city, mother and daughter on the town.

I haven't decided yet.

Yeah, I'm thinking maybe some Indian, but I'm not sure.

I don't get that much where I live, so something out of the ordinary would be delicious.

All right.

Well, I'm going to decide who's going to pay for dinner tonight.

Okay.

And then I'm going to make a verdict as to how this is going to go for the rest of time in perpetuity, forever and ever.

Amen.

And may I say one thing?

Probably.

Go Go ahead.

You're absolutely my favorite person, Judge John Hodgman.

Oh.

Are you attempting to bribe this court with flattery?

No, never would do that.

I mean, she does listen to your podcast on a regular basis.

I will now go into my Andrea Bocelli listening orb and soak up some sweet popper, and I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Tina, from what I understand, you're a big listener to to the podcast.

How do you think you'll come out in this case?

I don't think I'm going to come out well.

Why is that?

I think it'll probably go in Sam's favor.

I mean, if I was a judge, I probably would say that she is probably more right than I am, although I do call mothers rights in this respect.

Is this

a United Nations charter item that I'm not familiar with?

Yes.

Mothers have rights above all.

That's all I'm saying.

But, you know,

whatever he decides, I will do my best faithfully to carry out.

I am not giving any promises because knowing me, I will

probably not follow through on it.

We'll see how long.

But I promise I'll do my best.

Samantha, how are you feeling about your chances?

Oh, I want to say I'm feeling good, but whenever I feel good about something, it usually turns out horribly.

So I'm not sure.

Did you feel good about graduate school?

That seems to have worked out okay.

No, I felt terrible about graduate school, which is why I did well.

Yes, and that is true.

She did feel terrible because I got the phone calls at 2 o'clock in the morning saying, oh, I don't know.

I can't believe I did this.

God, what am I going to do?

And I said, don't worry, everything will be fine.

And of course, mom was always right.

She came out very well.

Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on My Brother, My Brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

So,

I obviously could rule in Samantha's favor, and I should.

I mean,

the point of fake internet court is to ensure fairness as much as possible.

And what is happening is unfair.

While Tina's desire to pay and effectiveness at paying is without question an expression of maternal generosity and human generosity,

it has been established that generosity is a form of pleasure.

To give is to not merely give to someone else, but to give to yourself.

It is a good feeling.

Other people deserve to have that good feeling from time to time, madam.

And you are robbing them of that pleasure, literally by stealing things out of their hands and hiding them, like credit cards or bills.

So, from the point of view of fairness, of course, 50-50 should be the law of the land.

I could rule in Samantha's favor, but I ask you, why bother?

Tina is going to do what she's going to do no matter what.

She has lied directly to me

about the lies that she has directly made to you, Samantha.

She has admitted that if I were to rule in your favor, she would not stop her behavior.

And because this court has no sheriff to enforce its rulings, there's nothing I can do to stop this woman from stealing generosity from you again and again.

I know she will give all assurances and be completely adorable adorable in accepting my verdict in your favor, Samantha.

And then as soon as you guys get to that Indian restaurant, you can be stealing that check.

It's true.

It's a criminal mastermind.

This is one where I realize my ability to instill order and fairness upon the world is rendered moot by those who simply ignore all orders.

and all social principles and get what they want no matter what.

There are people out there like that, and your mom's one of them in the most adorable way.

Therefore,

I will not have the authority of this court undermined by having someone not follow my orders.

And for this reason,

Tina, I order you to pay every time.

I don't have a problem with that.

I know you don't.

If only to maintain my own authority as a fake internet judge, I need to order you to do what you're going to do anyway.

Okay, I agree with that.

And Samantha, oh, thank you.

Thank you so much, madam.

You're welcome.

I just want to help your credibility come back.

No.

I have no doubt that the persistence, the self-reliance, and also the generosity that has formed your mom and allowed her to thrive

and get past a health scare all are such that there's nothing I could say that would ever get her to change her behavior, and so I won't.

The only thing I will say, Samantha, is this.

Learn from your mother.

You cannot battle her physically.

She's too strong, too wiry, too wily.

And also, it's illegal to fight your mom physically.

You have to be smarter.

You have to be sneakier.

She's going to try, and with the backing of this court's order, she is empowered to pay for every meal you ever have together.

Let me give you some advice.

Call ahead to the restaurant.

Pay in advance.

Go use the bathroom and pay when she's not looking.

Do sneaky things.

Because basically what your mom has said is, Every time you sit down to the table, it's fair game.

Anyone who gets that check first and gets out that credit card first, that's the whole of the law.

In this octagon, in this battle, there is no law.

There is only force

and

sneakiness.

You can't fight her with force, but you might be able to get her with sneakiness a couple of times.

So, while the full force of this court stands behind Tina,

mom of the century, when you go out to eat Indian food after this recording, she is ordered to pay for dinner.

Samantha, it's up to you to follow in your mom's footsteps and do what it takes, law be damned, to pay for that bill.

I look forward to hearing what happens.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Tina, how are you feeling?

I am feeling very good, to tell you the truth.

It kind of surprising, actually, because I really thought he was going to go

towards Samantha, thinking that as a young person growing up today, that

not too many exhibit her responsibility.

I thought that he would have gone in her favor.

So I'm kind of really surprised.

Trevor Burrus, Do you think that you taught your child to be devious enough to outwit you?

You know what?

I never thought of it about that way, but you know what?

I might have to start putting that into

her learning agenda.

My brother's devious enough for the both of us.

Oh, that is true.

I might have to start thinking about that.

That might be

educational prospect that I might have to add.

Samantha, are you ready for this?

Are you already making plans?

I'm going to have to work on my skills.

I'm not sure if I'm up to the level.

I'm going to have to, you know, practice, up the game, set up some obstacle courses for myself where I steal

credit or checks from people.

People.

Random scenarios.

Yeah.

It's going to be hard work on my part.

I think you can do it.

You've got an advanced degree.

That is true.

That is true.

That's right.

Listen, you hear that?

You are a graduate.

I, on the other hand, am only still going for my associates.

That makes you far superior than me in brain power.

Remember that.

Tina, it's obvious that you have a PhD in the game of life.

So true.

Well, Samantha, Tina, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

That's another Judge John Hodgman case in the books.

We've got some swift justice around the corner, but first our thanks to Andrew McNair and Craig Eliason for naming this week's episode Check Please.

If you want to name a future episode, just like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook.

That's where we put out the calls for submissions.

Even if you don't want to name a future episode, I enjoy looking at all of the ridiculous, overcomplicated, delightful puns that end up in those Facebook threads.

I'm really enjoying these hominym puns like Check Please, where people don't even understand it's a pun until they see it on the website.

You can follow us on Twitter.

John is at Hodgman.

I am at Jesse Thorne.

Hashtag your judge John Hodgman tweets.

Hashtag JJ Ho.

And check out the maximum fund subreddit to discuss this week's episode.

This week's episode, recorded by our friend Paul Ruest at Argo Studios in New York City, our producer is the great Jennifer Marmer.

Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment.

Here's one from Cody.

At a take-a-book, leave a book.

Do you need to immediately leave a book, or can you take one with the intent of bringing one to leave later?

Is this like those little

box libraries on street corners where you can leave books and take books?

Yeah, or maybe a bookshelf in a bed and breakfast.

Oh, okay.

I guess there are different iterations of this take a book, leave a book concept, but one thing they all have in common is leave a book.

You may intend to leave a book eventually, but until you do that, you are just taking a book.

And you know what taking a book is?

Stealing a book.

Carry a book around with you that you don't want and leave a book next time, Cody.

Don't be a thief.

Here's something from John.

Even though the internet has settled this question, my wife and I still argue about the song Hang on Sloopy.

She insists it's Snoopy because, because, as she puts it, what's a sloopy?

So here's the thing.

I also

believed, maybe even until I read this letter, that that's almost called hang on snoopy.

Even though my brain heard the sl

and not the sn,

it seemed impossible that they could be singing sloopy because what's sloopy?

To quote Wife of John.

I know it's a kind of sailing vessel, but it can't hang on to anything.

It doesn't have arms.

I think specifically, sloopy is the kind of word that the kind of people who come up with the band name the McCoy's comes up with.

Because why?

It just represents a real half-effort.

Well, you will be surprised to learn that, in fact, according to Rick Derringer, who was in the McCoy's, sloopy is not just a nonsense word that sounds gross.

It is actually a nickname for a woman named Dorothy Sloop.

I just learned this on the internet as we were talking.

Dorothy Sloop, later known as Dorothy Sloop Hellflick, was an American jazz pianist who performed with female jazz bands.

Native Ohio, and I'm quoting Wikipedia here, so take it all with a rock of salt.

She was born to a Roman Catholic family in Steubenville, learned piano as a youth, began performing in local theaters at age six, left college, went to New York City, and formed a jazz quartet called the Southland Rhythm Girls with singer and clarinetist Yvonne Dixie Fasnacht.

Sloopy and Dixie, the jazz band, is the greatest, coolest thing in the world.

They went and they played on Bourbon Street.

Eventually she went back to Steubenville, earned her college degree, later as a master's degree, and taught special education in St.

Petersburg, Florida.

She passed away in 1998, but continued to perform jazz piano into her 70s.

This is an amazing woman, and I will not have her erased by Wife of John simply because she wants to think of a cartoon dog instead of Dorothy Sloop Hefflick,

the Sloopy for whom this song is named.

So I will say this.

Hang on, Sloopy.

Continue to hang on.

You know, Judge Hodgman?

Yes.

My favorite song on the Beach Boys Classic Pet Sounds

is the Snoop John E.

Sorry.

Sorry, everyone who heard that.

It may be that there is a madness to their method,

That when the McCoys named it Sloopy, they knew that they would be taking advantage of how our brains would interpret that as Snoopy, a beloved cartoon character, very popular, and they might get the benefit of that name association without getting a lawsuit from Charles M.

Schultz about it, which is why my hit song that I'm writing as we speak in Sharpie is called Hang On Slarfield.

Okay, let's wrap this thing up.

If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, obviously no case is too small.

Go to maximumfund.org/slash JJ Ho or email Hodgman at maximumfund.org.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hang on, Slarfield.

Slarfield, hang on.

I had to change the notes so I don't get sued by the McCoy's either.

MaximumFund.org.

Comedy and culture.

Artist-owned.

Listener-supported.