When I Say Justice, You Say Served

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, when I say justice, you say served.

Chelsea brings the case against her partner, Kevin.

Kevin refuses to join in during audience participation portions of live shows.

Chelsea thinks it's part of the deal they make as audience members.

Kevin doesn't enjoy becoming part of the show.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents the obscure cultural reference.

Emotion.

Agitation or disturbance of mind, vehement or excited mental state.

It is also a powerful and irrational master.

And from what Bailiff Jesse Thorne and producer Jen Marmer eagerly viewed on their podcast monitor, there seemed little doubt that Judge John Hodgman was indeed

slave.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the obvious conflict of interest presented by the fact that he briefly toured as a member of Nellie's St.

Lunatics, specifically as the one that wore that catcher's gear?

I do.

I do.

Very well, Judge Hodgman.

Kevin and Chelsea, you may be seated.

Thank you for joining the court of Judge John Hodgman for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors.

Can either of you name the piece of culture that I paraphrased as I entered the fake courtroom?

Kevin, you are the defendant.

You have been brought to this court against your will, so you have the choice as to whether you will guess first or make Chelsea guess first.

What shall it be, Kevin?

I'll guess first.

All right, a very brave Kevin.

Go ahead and guess.

Well, I obviously don't know it, so I'm going to run.

I'm just going to go ahead and say 1984.

George Orwell's 1984.

That's the one you mean, George Orwell's 1984?

The one in the same.

All right, very good.

We'll put that into the into the guess book.

Chelsea, now it is your turn to guess.

What is your guess as to the piece of culture that I paraphrased as I entered the courtroom?

Um, I have no idea.

I came from here to guess a stand-up

comedian because I thought that would fit really well.

And now I am drawing a blank.

Um

it could be.

Who's your favorite stand-up comedian?

Um

Tig Natoro?

Tig Nataro.

Notaro.

I'm sorry.

Yes, she's probably

one of my favorites.

We'll just say for the record that you said her name correctly, Tig Nataro.

How do you feel about Zach Galifinakis?

I'm terrible with names.

His full name is Zach Doc Galifinakis.

That's fine.

No problem.

It's just the Judge John Hoodman podcast.

After all,

it's only got judge in the title, so I will judge you.

Please learn the names of your heroes.

But I put that into the book.

And now I'm closing the book and I'm throwing the book onto a fire because all guesses are wrong.

That neither one is correct.

I am very curious, though, Kevin, why you chose 1984.

Just feeling a little dystopian these days?

For any reason?

Well, yeah, we'll say yes.

I was just trying to imagine something about emotion where someone might be standing in front of a crowd.

Okay.

And Chelsea, you guessed Tig

Notaro.

Tig Notary Public.

Yes, sir.

The answer was not 1984 nor Tig Notary Public, but, in fact,

the famous audience participation movie,

The Rocky Horror Picture Show,

which I bet,

given the fact that neither of you claim to enjoy audience participation, or both of you claim to be introverts, according to the affidavit I have in front of me,

you did not ever go to, just like me.

Have you ever seen Chelsea?

Have you ever seen The Rocky Horror Picture Show?

Yeah, I have been a part of the audience participation on that one several times.

Oh, all right, stand by.

Not I.

Not okay, Kevin.

You're the one who really is introverted and really does not like to participate in audience type stuff.

No, I didn't even think the movie was that fun.

Chelsea, oh,

shots fired, as people say all the time.

But I mean, let's be honest, very reasonable shots.

And sure, remember, I remember as like a 13 or 14-year-old renting Rocky horror from Blockbuster Video.

Right.

May it rest in peace.

And there was this extended montage of people saying they'd seen it 500 times that ran before the movie.

And I thought, wow, this is going to be good.

Then I watched and I was like, I did not know at the time that the idea was to meet nice people that you would like and make friends with them.

Yes.

Rather than to enjoy a good movie.

Yes, that's right.

So those who do not know, because I kind of feel that Rocky Horror has disappeared a little bit from the scene from even 10, 15 years ago,

Rocky Horror Picture Show is a cult movie.

It is

a pastiche, a parody of horror movies with a certain

bawdy-ribbled overlay starring Susan Sarandon and Barry Bostwick.

And of course, Tim Curry is the famous Frank and Dr.

Frank and Furter

sweet transsexual from Transylvania, right?

Was that what it is do I have it correct?

You're the expert, Chelsea, correct?

Yeah, that sounds right.

All right.

And one of the things about this movie, which was based on a stage play in London in the mid-70s and was created by the dude who played Riff Raff.

I just learned that today.

Of course, now I can't remember his name.

I'm not going to look it up because we've got to keep talking.

Everyone else do that.

Everyone pull over your cars and get out Google right away.

Is that

it did not do very well on initial release, but it's so campy and fun and weird that in midnight shows beginning at the Waverly Theater, now the IFC Center in Greenwich Village, New York, people would start to dress up as the characters and they created a whole alternate script to the movie that they would yell at the screen and they would act out scenes and they would throw rice and toast and toilet paper.

Like the joke, Chelsea, if I remember correctly.

And I never did this, you understand.

I've only heard about this through legend from cooler kids.

But at one point, some character goes, great, Scott, and everyone throws Scott toilet paper at the screen.

Is that correct, Chelsea?

Yeah, yeah.

There are several things like that in it.

And you had a great time doing this?

Yeah, I thought it was really fun.

How old are you now, and how old was the last time you did it?

Well, I'm 28 now, and probably the last time I did it, I was 19.

Perfect.

Where did you do it when you were 19?

Um,

there was a theater theater where I come from in like the quad cities, Illinois and Iowa area, that would do, I think it was a monthly midnight showing.

I don't want to be an ignoramus, but you have caught me at a disadvantage.

What are the quad cities?

I bet there are four of them.

Actually, there are more than four of them.

There's five.

What?

Yeah, I think it's kind of

a debate on which ones are official.

Which are the official ones in your mind, Chelsea?

In my mind, it's Davenport, Rock Island, Moline,

Bettendorf.

All right.

Shots fired.

And

what's the rogue?

I know.

More shots fired back and forth.

Kevin, do you disagree?

What's the rogue city that should be in there?

Or what are the quad cities as you understand them?

So as someone who's actually from the quad cities.

Oh,

I can't wait to hear this.

The quad cities are Davenport, Iowa, Rock Island, Illinois, Moline, Illinois, and East Moline, Illinois.

And are any of them cities?

Yes.

Davenport, Iowa is the biggest city, and then Rock Island and Moline are cities.

That was just my coastal elite snobbery coming through.

I apologize.

Apology accepted.

19, I guess, is kind of the perfect time to go see this movie because this is how the weirdos found each other before

there really was the internet.

And by weirdos, I say that with great affection.

And in particular,

the cross-dressing aspect intersecting with the Greenwich Village in the 70s at midnight, it was a place where people of different persuasions, different orientations, different interests, and nerds and strangers and gay people and everyone else could stay up all night with each other and just have a huge amount of fun.

And yet

it scared the dickens out of young John Hodgman.

I think they used used to play it at the Exeter Street Theater in Boston.

I don't remember.

But I know it, I never, or maybe in Cambridge, maybe in Harvard Square, but I always got scared to go.

Because if you go the first time, what happens, Chelsea?

I forget what the kind of initiation ritual was.

Yeah, there's a ritual.

I had one of my friends I know who got a lap dance from the main character, but I know there's something they all do.

I don't recall.

See, that would have made me profound.

And they call you a virgin and they scream virgin at you,

Which when I was a teenager, that was the last thing I wanted to have happen because it just would have been so true.

It made me so scared.

So you can see that this court is a little bit aligned with Kevin because this dispute is over whether or not Kevin should participate in audience participation portions of various entertainment programs that you two go to.

together.

Do I state that more or less correctly, Chelsea?

Yeah, that's correct.

All right.

So what's the problem with Kevin?

You guys are a couple and have been for some time.

What's the prob when you go out?

What kind of things do you go out to see where Kevin just sits on his hands?

Yeah, so I want to

kind of expand on just like live performance to also activities and events.

Right.

So for some specific examples of him not singing along, doing calls and responses,

the repeat after me, and then the audience joins in, would be

at a

recent TIG stand-up special we went and saw here in New York Times.

I'm sorry, what's her last name though?

I don't recognize.

What's the last name of that comedian?

Is it comedian?

Tig what?

Tignitaro?

Mm-hmm.

Oh yeah, yeah, I've heard of her.

So what happened?

Tig wanted you guys to do something?

Yeah, she wanted us to sing Yellow Submarine as an audience.

And everyone did,

including myself.

Kevin, in that scenario, did not join in.

Yeah, and after the fact, just to kind of expand on this one moment that we had, he said he preferred to watch that audience interaction, to watch everyone sing along instead of joining in.

And I felt like that betrayed the audience and the

social contract that we had with each other that we sing and kind of step out of our box because we're doing it together.

It's a no-judgment, judgment-free zone.

I object, by the way.

That's fine.

Let me just jump in and I'll sustain that objection because I want to hear from Kevin.

But quickly, Chelsea, do I understand correctly that Kevin is a contemptuous space alien who is on this planet studying humanity?

Or is he an actual human?

You know, I'm not sure.

I'm beginning to wonder

in these moments.

Kevin, everyone knows Yellow Submarine.

Everyone can sing it.

How come no sing in this particular case?

So in this particular case,

I didn't say that I would rather watch the audience.

I said I wanted to watch how Tig interacted with the audience.

That was what I was more interested in because I am there to watch the show.

But, to be fair to myself, the whole point of this bit of the singing of Yellow Submarine was...

was to make the audience uncomfortable.

She sat there and waited and waited and waited as the audience sang Yellow Submarine until people eventually just stopped because they didn't know what to do, such as the hilarious comedy of Tignotaro.

I just happened to be the type of person who got uncomfortable immediately

and didn't and never started.

I was just the first of the many people who stopped singing during the performance.

Bailiff Jesse, Tignotaro is a friend of the Maximum Fun family, of course.

Yeah, a friend of mine.

Via Max FunCon, that's how I first came to know her work.

So my question to you is, have you seen this Yellow Submarine bit?

Because I have not.

I haven't, but, you know, I know Tig, and Tig was, I think

a famous episode of my comedy podcast, Jordan Jesse Goh, among the small group of people who listened to Jordan Jesse Goh is her first appearance some years ago.

in which she was essentially difficult and obstructionist the entire time, to hilarious effect.

And I assumed it was her doing a classic Tignataro bit.

But it turned out that she just didn't know what a podcast was.

So she is

a comedian who ably rides the line between

sincere and insincere.

And her comedy is dry enough that it can sometimes be difficult to pick out the tone.

And in that discomfort does come a significant amount of the comedy.

That said, it sounds like we've got a litigant who decided that his way of participating in that comedy would be to obstruct it even more himself personally.

To double obstruct.

Yeah.

To turn awkwardness against itself.

Yeah.

Like as though he and Tignitaro are both wizards, that the core of their wands are from the same bird.

Or another way of putting it would be, as though he and Tignataro are both the comedian.

Yeah, exactly.

That's a way that we say we're Sympatico from now on.

Anytime you feel like someone really gets you, you say, you know what, the core of our wands are both from the same bird.

So Jesse Thorne, being a fan and friend of Tigs, would you say that Kevin is correct, that the intention of the Yellow Submarine bit

is to make the audience feel uncomfortable and let's laugh at themselves for her own amusement?

Or do you think she just wants people to hear the Yellow Submarine?

Well, I would say that the correct answer to that is neither of the choices in that binary.

I don't think it is for her amusement.

I think it is for the audience's amusement.

The audience is laughing at their own discomfort.

Yeah.

And so if you are not participating in it, you are essentially invalidating the premise of the judge.

Invalidating the premise, Kevin?

That's a bold accusation from a bailiff.

Did you invalidate that premise or what?

I guess, I mean, to myself, I did.

I didn't make myself uncomfortable by singing Yellow Submarine.

I like all the academic gloss that you've put on to this dumb moment at a comedy show.

But basically, are you able to just say I'm scared to sing in a group or I just don't like it?

I can say that.

I don't deny one bit that I just don't like to, well, it's not the singing.

I I just don't like to participate usually when it comes to doing something like that.

Can you or can you not sing Yellow Submarine?

Can I sing it?

Not at this moment.

I'm just saying, it's not that you're ashamed of your voice.

I don't know the words as well as probably someone else does.

Let me give you a hint.

A lot of it is repeating the words Yellow Submarine over and over again.

Right.

But we weren't only singing.

You know what, Judge Hodgman?

At this moment, my daughter is learning to sing Yellow Submarine with her school's music teacher.

Yeah.

And so Yellow Submarine just reverberates through my house, along with a variety of songs that have been written to help her remember how to spell the names of colors.

And it is absolutely maddening.

Even just hearing the words Yellow Submarine is making my skin crawl.

And I have nothing against the Beatles at all.

Look, it could

be thankful for small favors.

It could have been Octopus's Garden.

Fair point.

But Kevin, you can sing.

It's just you don't like to play along in an audience.

Can you articulate

in the broader sense what offends you about being asked to participate from the stage?

Well, I usually, I just don't, I just don't like to.

I just typically, if I'm at an event or a show, I just want to be a a spectator.

I don't want to be a part of it.

You know, I don't obstruct.

I'm not a heckler.

I sit quietly

and respectfully, but I usually just don't play along.

Have there been situations where you have been specifically called upon to participate in shows?

That is, you personally distinct from the rest of the audience?

Yes.

And I participate in

that moment because at that point, I feel like not participating is obstructing.

What was the situation where you were asked directly to participate and you said okay?

I can't remember.

I know this has happened to me, though.

Did your mind erase this because it was a traumatic experience?

No.

No,

it's really not about being scared or shy.

It really is just that I don't like it.

When someone on stage starts going, all right, you guys, for this to work, we're all going to need, I'm going to need all y'all's help.

How do you feel when that happens?

When you know it's coming?

Well, I don't know.

I usually don't feel anything

like a robot.

Chelsea, are you sure

that your special friend is not a contemptuous robot alien?

I am.

I am a contemptuous being sent to just observe humanity, absolutely.

Has this always been the case?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I was probably an emotional teenager, like we all were, but since then.

But then what happened?

I calmed down, I guess.

You went to Rocky Horror Picture Show and had your mind erased.

I didn't go to Rocky Horror Picture Show.

That didn't sound fun at all.

Right.

Because the movie isn't good.

Okay,

we know your opinion on the movie.

All participation, which obviously I'm not really all that into.

Kevin, has a musical artist ever asked you to wave your hands in the air?

And did you?

First question.

Second question, in what manner did you?

Yeah, what level of care?

Well, I've never been asked to wave my hands in the air.

I would have waved my hands in the air as if I didn't care, but I've never specifically been in that snake.

Of course you didn't care because you have no human emotions.

I do the

wave your hands in the air and wave them like you're a contemptuous alien robot from beyond.

Then you just stick it straight up in the air.

You don't move it at all.

Yeah.

Well, don't do that.

That might be misconstrued in this time and age.

And anytime that there's been someone on the show or on the stage that has needed audience, has needed audience participation, like give me a beat and clap along.

I contribute then.

But

I usually just don't like to be a part of the show if I don't need to be.

If you feel there's an option to sit out quietly and without calling attention to yourself, you will do it.

Yes.

Judge Hodgman, I am reminded of my college roommate, Nathaniel Chapman, a good and kind man and a gifted musician who had never been to a hip-hop show in his life.

And he and I in Santa Cruz, California, went to see De La Soul.

Yeah.

One of the great live hip-hop acts, truly masterful live act.

And I remember coming home with him and he grabbed me by the shoulders when we got home and he said, Jesse, that was great.

And I said, oh, I'm so glad you enjoyed it, Nathaniel.

And he said, my favorite part was when they told me to do something and then I did it.

Chelsea, I have to say

that Kevin seems to know his mind.

He appreciates his own lack of human emotions.

And he

also appreciates that sometimes there's a contract that must be fulfilled.

That when an artist specifically asks for something and he feels like

he will ruin the show if he didn't do it, he will do it.

Now, I don't know whether he's telling the truth about that or not.

He says he'll clap along.

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.

But everything he's saying sounds more or less reasonable.

Why is it unreasonable, Chelsea?

For a couple reasons.

One, I don't doubt that he would do something like clap along because he can carry a beat really well.

I think that that he feels like he is contributing to helping everyone stay on beat.

I don't know that he always contributes when it's necessary.

And this brings me to the type of performances that aren't on stage, but between,

like in an activity instead.

So this fall we went

to a corn maze and

they took us in groups to like tell us, you know, how this is going to work and how to go through the maze and how to call for help if you get lost.

Yeah.

And it was like a young person.

You know, nine people die in every corn maze every year of starvation.

And they're surrounded by corn.

That's the weird part.

Corn mazes are terrifying fun.

I love them.

That's not eating corn, though.

But I'm not eating corn.

What's that?

He's just sitting over there.

That's not eating corn.

Oh, that's not eating corn.

Yeah, that's decorated.

It's maize and corn.

That's maize and maize.

I got you.

I thought you had just sat down on the floor of the studio there and just started rocking back and forth going, I'm not eating corn.

I'm not eating corn.

No, that corn, the corn for a corn maize is not for human consumption.

As Bailiff Jesse Thorne said, that's maize and corn.

But I don't think of corn mazing as a group activity particularly.

Tell me a little bit more, Chelsea.

Right.

So we were out in Queens, and I think that this one was probably just very popular being right there outside of the city, easy to get to.

Queens, which is Queens, New York, Queens, the borough of New York.

Yes.

Yeah.

Also known as the quad cities.

Go on.

The quad boroughs.

Yeah.

So we were out there and it was a really long line and they took you in groups to let you enter to kind of control the crowd.

And he tried to, I'm sure, as it was his job, to get the crowd to be kind of, I don't know, hyped up or excited to go in after waiting for a long time.

And while these things can be silly, as to adults who kind of came out there and chose to do this typically younger or family thing, I felt that in that time when the person said, repeat after me, or I say this and you say that, that in that group, it was noticeable that

he was not participating.

Wait a minute, wait a minute.

Where in Queens is this corn maze?

Kevin, do you know where in Queens?

I'm not sure.

Maybe we had to take a bus to get to it.

It's pretty far out.

I can't remember the name of it.

Are you telling me that someone has a cornfield in Queens

that they cut

into a maze?

Yeah, there's a little farm.

They'll take you on a hay rack ride, but you just go through the parking lot.

They also have pumpkins you can pick up.

It's like an event.

But this corn is growing out of the ground.

Yeah.

This is a legit corner.

Not very big.

It's a legit corn farm in Queens.

What?

Yeah.

Well, I don't know if they're farming the corn or if they just make it for the maze.

From the Midwest, so you're asking us if that was a legit corn farm.

Yeah, well, I am asking you that.

First of all, I don't know why anyone from the quad cities would want to go to a corn maze in Queens.

Second of all, because I can't imagine, I'm thinking that's probably like

two stalks of corn.

Can you find your way between them?

And second of all, I have to say, Kevin,

if you're telling me, Chelsea,

that

this hipster corn maze in Queens had a hype man who was doing call and response stuff to go into a maze?

I absolutely stand by Kevin's desire to turn my alien nose up at that business.

Just a maze.

I don't know, Judge Hodgman.

I feel like if it's in Queens, it might be a really good hype man.

Like, who's to say that, you know, when Buster Rhymes isn't touring, Spliffstar doesn't work at local corn maze.

Yeah, okay, I got you.

If it's Buster Rhymes, then yeah,

you got to do the call and response.

But like,

what was the pattern to get you hyped up for the maze, Chelsea?

It was thoroughly unbuster rhymes.

And it was a safety demonstration.

Spliff Star believes in safety.

What were the safety concerns getting lost and starving?

And how did he do it through a call and response?

I'm very confused.

I think there was a funny thing that you were supposed to say into the...

phone and said it back.

I'm not sure it was entirely a safety thing.

It was just a rundown of what was going to happen.

And I think that while it was goofy.

Wait, where did the phone come into this?

Oh, there was like little, I don't know, tin can type phones along the thing so that if you wanted a hint, you would say a thing to get a hint.

If you didn't say that thing, you weren't going to get the hint.

So like a tin can attach to some string.

You pull it tall.

Yeah, and then there are people.

Help me, I'm starving.

Or I'm surrounded by creepy children.

Are they supposed to be, ah?

Yeah.

And while we were not, I don't think, the intended audience I think that we went in that knowing that we were not the intended audience that it was for young kids

object

okay

but Chelsea finish your sentence and then we're gonna throw to Kevin's objection

thank you

was that in a small group like that I think it's important for everyone to partake and make the person who's working there feel comfortable and and yeah, and just help everybody out to get through an awkward but fine experience.

What is your objection, Kevin?

I don't understand anything that was happening in this corn maze.

So maybe during the objection, you can clarify for me.

Give your side of the story.

We were this

little presentation that she's describing was essentially a safety speech given for small children before we went into the maze.

The reason that there was call and response is because the guy just needed to make sure all the little kids was listening, were listening to him.

Little kids get lost in a maze and get scared, so they needed to know what to do.

They need to know if when to lift their pole or when to speak into the can with the PVC pipe that takes that goes to the tower, all these things.

None of these things were of interest to me because I'm a grown-up and I don't need safety instructions to get out of like a 50 by 50 corn maze.

Right.

I did not, nor did she, know what we were getting into when we walked into that line that we were going to have to do call and response.

We went in there to go to a corn maze, which was only, we only even went into because it was part of the ticket.

We bought the ticket.

You get the pumpkin, you get the hay rack ride, you get the corn maze, you get the whatever else.

Right.

What would be a sample call and response?

You do the call and I'll do the response.

Well, I mean, it wasn't really, it wasn't.

I need you to participate with me on this because I'm truly, I'm sincerely confused as to what the call and response was at the corn maze.

He would have, you know, said, oh, hey, if, you know, and if you're lost, lift your poll.

And he would have said, everyone, lift your poll and say, hey.

And then like so.

Okay, I got you.

Right.

Yeah, this is not a very good example, Chelsea.

It was the most recent example of a small group activity where Kevin felt like he was above the situation.

And did anyone notice by you, did Kevin make any kids cry?

No, I think that I,

and not that I feel like this is evidence enough, that I could tell that the young person doing it felt uncomfortable and kind of had to really get everyone to participate by saying things a few times or saying, come on, guys, when I...

Has anyone besides you, Chelsea, ever noticed Kevin's lack of participation?

Has this caused a problem outside of...

Not that your feelings aren't meaningful, they're very meaningful.

But outside of your noticing, has it ever caused a problem at a show, concert, corn maze,

quad city festival, anything?

No, it would be difficult to say.

I would say we're

pretty isolated.

We've been away from the quad cities a long time and we move a lot.

So I don't...

Because Kevin's constantly being chased out of town once they find out that

he's an alien observer.

Yes.

So I don't have anyone else to back this very specific.

Like when you were at the Tignotaro show and Kevin didn't sing along, was it embarrassing to you?

Did people turn around and go, come on, Kevin, sing?

No.

Okay.

I feel like in those situations, whereas the maze one is one where I feel like it affected the mood, even if one person didn't say anything.

But it also is something that I feel like affects me when I'm in these scenarios.

What I'm feeling.

Perfect.

This is exactly where I want to go because as far as as I can tell, the mood it is affecting is yours and your mood counts.

So tell me and Kevin how you feel when Kevin doesn't sing along, literally and figuratively.

Yeah, so I feel kind of insecure, I want to say, or like...

that I am now in this thing alone because now he is not participating.

And I become very conscious of myself and how I am participating.

And I think that kind of affects my ability to get into the thing that we are at.

And how does that affect it?

It decreases your enjoyment of Tignotaro?

Yeah, I also think it's distracting.

To you.

Yeah, to me from what's happening.

Kevin, does that change your thinking at all about whether to sing along or play along, knowing that

it detracts from your beloved's enjoyment of the comedy of Tignotaro?

No.

Not particularly.

I think that she...

I find her human emotions to be fascinating for sure,

and I will put them in my log of human states of mind, but I will not respond.

I don't know that I believe that it affects her as much as she says it does.

And

I think that she's often just paying too much attention to me as opposed to whatever we're doing.

How long have you guys been together?

Seven years.

Yeah, you're probably stuck together now.

Chelsea, you would like me to compel, if I find in your favor, you would like me to compel Kevin to participate when the performer asks for audience participation.

Any other caveats?

Nope, just general participation.

I don't think he needs to get up on stage just

when everyone else is asked to do it as a group that he also do it.

Uh-huh.

And Kevin, if I find in your favor,

you just want to do your own thing.

I would generally like to be left alone, not griefed.

I think the idea of being made to participate would be worse for her than she thinks, because then I I would be participating disingenuously and potentially actually start trolling

because I'm not happy about it.

What would your trolling vengeance be?

Oh, I would be trolling.

Well, I mean, I wouldn't be trolling the show, but I would be trolling her.

How's that?

How do you mean?

Explain what I'm saying.

I don't know.

It would depend on the situation.

If I had to sing along because we were singing along, I would definitely be mocking her singing.

You would be mocking her singing?

Or mocking the singing.

You're saying.

Or just be just generally being

a grumpy gus.

You're saying that your

already

many

thick padded layers of ironic distance would grow even more deeply layered, such that you'd come back around the other side, do the thing, but do it in a completely insincere way.

Well, here's the thing.

I think a lot of people actually do enjoy participating.

I think if people didn't like to, it wouldn't become a part of the show.

I'm just one of those people who doesn't.

Kevin, do you understand that part of the social contract of these sorts of participation is that what gives people permission to participate in and enjoy doing something that they might otherwise not enjoy doing publicly is that everyone else is doing it.

And you are essentially pricking a balloon for everyone who is around you.

That might be true.

I mean, if the people, if attention was called to the side of the stage, do you think that the people who are singing along with a performer on stage, to take an example that's come up thus far?

Do you think that those people enjoy it in the sense that they would walk up on stage and do it if no one else was doing it?

No, but I think they enjoy the idea of getting to play.

Like, so in this example, they get to play with TIG.

They're not just viewing.

They get to be a part of it and engage with her.

Do you think, in part, they're engaging with everyone else in the audience?

I don't know.

I don't know because I'm not one of those people.

So

because I don't enjoy it, I can't say.

I think your presumption of the reason that people enjoy it might be off.

It might be.

And

that's, I could, I could see that.

But I know that my presumption that I definitely don't enjoy it is spot on.

I will cut short the aggressive line of questioning from my bailiff,

Jesse Sing-along himself,

in order to ask one final question before I go to my chambers.

Has there been a time

when

you have been at a performance and been asked to participate and didn't and then ended up feeling, and I want you to be honest, like, oh, I wish I had.

I don't think so.

Not necessarily in the way that we're talking about it today.

I think if

there had been a time where I would have thought that, it would have been on more like I was personally invited or, you know, the person asked for a specific person to do a thing, like come up on stage potentially.

And in that case, I might afterwards think that.

But in general, you know, if it's just the whole crowd doing a thing, I've never once thought that afterwards I should have done a thing.

Okay, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to take

the trolley to one of these quad cities where I keep my chambers, and I'll take a moment to consider my decision and be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Chelsea, Kevin,

when I say hip, you say hop.

Hip?

Hop.

Hip?

Hop.

When I say hay, you say ho.

Hey?

Ho.

Hey?

Ho.

I've always wanted to do that.

We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about this case when we come back in just a second.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximum fun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfun.org/slash join.

And you can join them by going to maximumfun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask you a question.

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The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Quince.

Jesse, the reviews are in.

My new super soft hoodie from Quince that I got at the beginning of the summer is indeed super soft.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

So in the town where I was born, not Brookline, Massachusetts.

I was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts, moved very early on to Brookline, Jesse.

Thank God we got that cleared up.

Well, it's a different county.

In the town where I was born, there lived a man who sailed the sea.

And he told me of his life

in the land of submarines.

It wasn't until this very moment that I realized that dumb lyric is about a land of submarines.

That guy lived in a land of submarines.

Everyone had a submarine where in his village.

Submarines were like apples.

They were falling off of trees.

Submarineland.

You had red delicious submarines, you had honey crisp submarines, and then you had yellow delicious submarines.

It's not even a world of submarines.

It's a land of submarines.

These submarines, substantially speaking, are stranded on piles of dirt.

It's the worst place for a submarine to be.

That was a good chuckle.

Getting back to you guys.

You know, I have long held that

there is too little singing along.

That singing along used to be a part of the entertainment experience going back to the music hall and vaudeville and caroling and you know singing in groups was a huge part of communal entertainment, whether the performance had a leader or not that began to disappear as we got divided by all of our various new technologies and screens and books and cinema and everything else, that once we were removed

more and more from the person creating the art and instead we're watching a recording of it, we were either literally isolated one-on-one with a screen or figuratively isolated within a dark room in which we were not expected to participate.

That's what made the Rocky Horror Picture Show such a transgressive event.

When the audience started talking back at a screen that could not hear it, the audience discovered each other in a way that they otherwise would not have.

And thus, the quality of the movie itself, which I think even

the longest time fans of the Rocky Horror Picture Show would agree is not the greatest movie.

But it is the process,

the communion

of saying those lines together, learning them, learning the tricks, learning the beats, and being part of the show that gives a special

warm layer of distraction to what entertainment is supposed to be, which is distraction.

It gives it a moment of bright and fleeting meaning that doesn't happen if everyone just sits silently on their hands.

And that is why in my shows,

you know, I've always closed my comedy shows with a song.

For two reasons.

One, because I think it creates something magical in the room.

And two, it erases the memory of all my failed jokes and unfunny parts in the show.

No one remembers it.

No one notices that I don't really have a closing bit.

If you've got a ukulele song, that pretty much covers it.

In other words, if you could close with a dog act, you would.

Totally.

Because people love dogs.

Instinctively, people love dogs.

But

we've become removed from our instincts through years and years and decades of electronic versions of electronic media.

And we become removed from our instincts to sing along

through disuse, basically.

And so when I start the sing-along at the shows,

it's usually pretty quiet.

And despite

what my bailiff suggested,

if I understood his line of questioning correctly, which was perfectly appropriately aggressive, Kevin really needed to be run down there.

But if I understood him correctly, that part of the contract is everyone sings along so that everyone feels okay doing it because no one really wants to.

But I have observed in many, many crowds that in fact there is a small minority of people who really do want to sing along.

They really are ready to go.

Musical theater.

That's what they're called.

And they're the ones who will jump right in and the rest usually need a little bit of coaxing.

And what happens in that moment

when you coax someone into doing it is it creates creates something very, very magical and everyone joins in and even the people who don't have a lot of faith in their own voice tend to seem to enjoy it?

Or

is that a story that I tell myself?

Because basically

the maybe what's magical happening is I'm making a bunch of strangers perform for my pleasure.

The answer to the issues that I hadn't really thought of until I heard from Kevin on this one.

It's like, maybe people don't want to do this at all.

And maybe the magical thing that happens in the room is that I have, through sheer force of will,

compelled people to behave in a certain way.

And that makes me feel powerful.

That could be.

Maybe Tig, Nataro, and I are both monsters.

But I have heard from plenty of people who do enjoy it.

And what I think was interesting about this case is that what I expected from this was that Kevin was going to express a kind of shyness that I would then urge him to overcome.

But in fact, what

I honestly became convinced through talking to him and hearing the evidence

that it's simply not his bag.

He legit doesn't mind that it's happening, but personally doesn't have

the emotional receptor for this thing.

And as someone who appreciates and loves

Bruce Springsteen as a person in the world, could not be a nicer guy, could not be a more accomplished artist, who understands on an intellectual level his artistry,

but for some reason lacks the emotional and intellectual receptors for a Bruce Springsteen song such that I would never, ever, ever turn one on, sorry, boss.

I kind of have to respect that Kevin just wants to do his own thing.

And what really turned me on this one was this.

At the very end, Kevin said, I might have regretted not getting up on stage at, say, an improv show or whatever, you know, whenever I'm being asked to come up on stage and volunteer for that.

But I've never regretted not doing something that everyone else is doing if I could get away with not doing it.

Because Kevin doesn't want to be part of the herd.

Kevin is a contemptuous alien from outer space.

The only thing Kevin regretted was ever not getting a chance to get up on stage and get some of that limelight for himself.

Be a star.

So

I'm going to find in Kevin's favor.

I'm sorry, Chelsea, you just didn't demonstrate damages that have been caused by Kevin's behavior other than to his own soul.

But

my order comes with a price.

I need you now.

I need a volunteer from the audience to get up on stage, figuratively speaking,

and sing,

we all live in a yellow submarine,

a yellow submarine, a yellow submarine.

We all live in a yellow submarine.

Just the chorus.

We all live in a yellow submarine, yellow submarine, yellow submarine.

We all live in...

Keep going.

Yellow submarine.

Yellow submarine.

Yellow submarine.

All right.

You know what, Kevin, you did it.

You jumped right in there.

You were born to be a star, and I'm sorry that I stepped on you and took a moment away from you.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge Sean Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Kevin, how do you feel having been anointed a star by the star maker himself?

I feel pretty good.

Hopefully that means I can just enjoy my my show in peace now.

How do you feel, Chelsea, knowing that you're going to be pulling two people's participation load anytime you go to a show in the future?

I'm disappointed.

I wish I would have made how I felt more prominent part of my argument.

You can't say I didn't give you a chance, Chelsea.

Remember when I said I know you did such a good job on my side, Jesse.

I really appreciated that.

I'm glad to help, Chelsea.

Thank you.

Hey, you want to go to to the De La Sol show?

Yes.

No, I know.

I got asked about my feelings and I dropped the ball because I think I thought I had it.

And that's my fault.

So that's the ruling and I will respect it.

Thank you both for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

It was great to get to know you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened, and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Well, Judge Hodgman, another thrilling and possibly copyright-violating conclusion to another thrilling Judge Sean Hodgman case.

Judge John Hodgman.

That's my favorite part of Yellow Submarine when

they do the call and respond.

In a yellow submarine.

Yes, please don't sue us.

Apple Records slash Apple Computer slash Michael Jackson.

I don't know who owns that stuff anymore.

We just, we love

the Beatles.

Jesse,

this week the week that this podcast is delivered unto the world

is the week just before saturday february 11th which as far as i know is just an ordinary day right jesse no it's a very very fun day at least in chicago in the chicagoland area oh boy

yeah we're gonna we're gonna be doing a podcast and festival an all-day one-day-only podcasting festival at thalia hall featuring all your fave maximum fun podcasts including this one uh the flop house

My favorite.

Yeah, all right.

Stop podcasting yourself.

Jordan Jesse go, tights and fights and more.

There may, you know, all the advanced tickets sold out pretty quick, but we are selling some tickets at the door, so you might want to just give them a call or come by and check it out.

Even if you can't get into the big show, there's a lounge there.

There's a restaurant there.

I really love this venue a lot.

I'm not getting any money for this.

I just like hanging out there and I just, it'll be fun.

Why don't you come on by?

Yeah, there's going to be a ton of fun.

And if you want Very, Very Fun Day to come to where you live, tell us on Twitter, hashtag at Very Very Fun Day, where you would like us to come because our goal is to bring the show later this year to a few different places with a few different lineups of Max Fun and local podcasts.

We're actually going to have the folks from the Magic Tavern there.

They're Chicago-based and Nerdet.

A few different local shows in addition to all that, and a stand-up show with Dwayne Kennedy, who's one of my favorite stand-up comics in the world, and Ricky Carmona, Carmona, our sometime colleague here at Maximum Fun.

Ricky Carmona.

And Graham Clark.

And I think, I can't promise this 100%,

but I think that Jordan Morris's signature character, Coked Out Michael Bay, may make an appearance.

That's at Thalia Hall in Chicago, Saturday, February 11th.

All the details are at maximumfun.org slash very, very fun day.

Tickets available at the door.

Jesse, would you remind me, where was it that I met the famous comedian Tig Rotarian?

Oh, I believe that was at Max FunCon.

You're talking about Tig Notoro?

That's right.

It was at Max FunCon, which that is in the past, but in the future as well.

This June, Max FunCon returns to Lake Arrowhead, California in the San Bernardino Mountains for a weekend full of fun activities, shows,

fellowship, and refreshment with your fellow Max Fun listeners and talent.

And then it's going to the Poconos for this Labor Day for Max FunCon East.

Is that not true, Jesse?

Did I get it all right?

That is true.

You know, I was just talking the other day with a big-time entertainment booker, and he was telling me that he was sitting with some people at a big-time entertainment venue here in Los Angeles.

And he blew their mind talking about how we had had Allie Wong on one of our shows a couple of years ago.

Yeah.

Crazy, right?

You know, Ali Wong came to Max FunCon a few years ago.

First time I ever saw her perform, blew me away.

Now she's selling out 19 shows at the Wilbur Theater in Boston.

That's the capital of Massachusetts and New England, Jesse.

Oh, got it.

And what county is that in?

I don't remember.

Suffolk or Norfolk.

Anyway, Max FunCon is a place to see both the people that you already know you love and people that you are about to learn that you love.

And also, like, genuinely meet them and be friends with them.

Like, one of the things that happens at Max FunCon is there's only a couple hundred people there and about a quarter of them are performers and presenters.

So you'll just be sitting at lunch with Ali Wong or whatever, Judge Hodgman, Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

It's a really special thing.

And you can find more information and get tickets at maxfuncon.com.

If we're having lunch together, please don't touch my food.

That's all I ask.

Thanks to Eli Denowitz for naming this week's episode when I say justice, you say served.

If you would like to name a future episode like judge john hodgman on facebook we regularly put out a call for submissions just go to maximum fun.org slash jjho to submit a case hashtag it jjho on twitter join us on reddit at maximum fun.reddit.com and like judge john hodgman on facebook and join the maximum fun group on facebook all of these are fun ways to get involved in your community yeah it doesn't matter what, which of the quad cities you live in, all are welcome in all these different groups.

This week's episode was engineered by Paul Ruest at Argo Studios in New York City.

Hi, Paul.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

I've run out of things to say, Jesse.

So, what do you say?

I say thanks, everybody, for listening this week to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Bye-bye.

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