Live From Brooklyn, NY 2016

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week's episode was recorded live with a live audience at the Bell House in Brooklyn, New York.

We just want to let you know before we get into things that this week's musical guest, the Pitch Black Brass Band, has a little bit of strong language in the songs on the show.

In case you're listening with kids and you don't want them to hear it.

But seriously, they were really great.

Tonight from Brooklyn, shut your drawer hole.

Rob brings the case against his girlfriend Caitlin.

He's tired of her clutter and her tendency to leave drawers open.

Caitlin is a student who also works.

She wants Rob to cut her a little slack.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise, metaphorically,

as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers the obscure cultural reference.

In my father's many mansions,

On the uppermost floors, reside the righteous few who've always closed their dresser drawers.

In perdition's lonesome tenements, the damned dwell in their caves where the dresser drawers hang open like freshly ransacked graves.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in.

Please raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he does not believe in drawers, preferring satchels?

I do.

I do.

Very well, Judge Hodgman.

That's absolutely right, Bill, Jesse Thorne.

I don't have a bureau in my bedroom, just a series of sacks.

Sacks and hooks, just like the Amish had.

I'm not proud.

Rob and Caitlin, for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors, can either of you identify the piece of culture I referenced as I entered the courtroom.

Caitlin, you have been brought here against your will

by Rob, your husband?

Is that correct?

No, boyfriend.

Boyfriend.

Boyfriend with whom you live, right?

Yes.

I'm just making a note of that.

You have the opportunity to guess first or to make Rob guess first.

Which shall it be?

I'm going to make Rob guess first.

That is a classic maneuver.

Everyone does it.

And I mean everyone.

Mix it up next time.

Litigans for the second case.

But no,

though I prejudge you, I am not prejudiced.

I shall take your guess.

What is your guess?

I'm going to guess Walt Whitman.

Walt Whitman

of Brooklyn, New York.

Pandering.

That's what that is.

Local pandering.

All right, Caitlin, you've heard your guess.

That's in the guess book.

What is your guess?

It sounded like a Robert Frost poem.

Robert Frost poem, because that's a poet, right?

No, it did really sound.

I don't really know many poets, but I do know Robert Frost.

Sure,

exactly right.

Yeah, but it sounded like.

It's not my field.

It reminds me, just recently, those of you who follow my Instagram feed at John Hodgman, because Hodgman was taken by some jerk.

I was down at the Faulkner bookstore in Pirates Alley, New Orleans, and I overheard someone saying, look at that.

Collected poems of Robert Frost.

I have that.

Hey, look at that.

Elements of style.

I have that too.

The saddest brags of all time.

But all guesses are wrong.

Judge Hodgman.

English 101 syllabus.

Gotta catch them all.

All guesses are wrong.

So when this case was submitted to me, you may not know this, Rob, but your non-wife, Caitlin,

beseeched, please, please do not choose lyrics to a mountain goat's song,

because Rob will probably get it.

Because, according to Caitlin, Rob, you are an expert.

Incorrect.

Well.

And judge, to be fair, secondarily also, because over 60% of these are the lyrics of mountain goat songs.

As is this one.

These are lyrics to a mountain goat song.

Rob,

can you guess the title of this mountain goat song?

I'm going to go with drawers.

All guesses are wrong!

Because it has no title.

Because when Caitlin said, Don't let it be a mountain goat song,

I texted my friend, John Darnell,

and said, I know you're on tour right now with your band the Mountain Goats and are probably very busy, but would you please write lyrics to a new song that involved open drawers?

And John said, I am very busy.

I'm not sure if I can get to it.

And I said, no problem, I've got a backup in in case you need it.

An E.B.

White quote.

In case, don't worry about it.

But then five minutes later came those lyrics.

And then two minutes later came a whole other set of lyrics that I didn't have time to read to you.

That's how John Darneal does it.

So

we have to move on and hear this case.

Rob, you believe that Caitlin, your non-wife with whom you live, here in Brooklyn?

No, Upper West Side, Manhattan.

Upper West Side.

Thank you for making the trip, by the way.

No problem.

Yeah, absolutely.

From away, we have Rob and Caitlin.

And Rob, you say that Caitlin is too messy and she leaves the drawers open.

Is that correct?

That's saying the least.

Many other things get left open.

I say the least and then you say the most.

Let's elaborate, please.

Sure.

Thank you for taking the cue.

No problem.

This is a letter he wrote to his mother during the Civil War.

Let the record show that Rob has

opened a piece of paper that has

a few ideas for logos for his metal band.

Looks a little bit, from my point of view, like something that was found in Kevin Spacey's Journal in Seven.

But go ahead.

We do not grade on penmanship here at the Judge John Sean Ogman podcast.

So Caitlin's not dirty or unhygienic, but she's totally fine with living amongst a lot of clutter and disarray.

But the nature of the clutter is very distinct.

Like she just will open a drawer, not shut it, open a cabinet, not shut it.

Now, this is why I wanted to hear this case.

Caitlin,

is this accusation true?

Because if it's true, that's bonkers.

Just so you know where I'm coming from.

And I won't recuse myself

because I have been looking for vengeance on this subject

since I lived in college with a woman named Theo who left every cupboard open every time.

And I kabonked my head into those cupboards all the time.

It seems to me a simple part of the social contract

with your furniture

that if you open it, you complete the cycle.

Do you leave drawers open?

And that's my question.

Yes.

But

it's not on purpose.

It's not because I want.

Are you saying your thoughtlessness is not on purpose?

Yes.

Yes.

I have a lot happening that tends to distract me when I'm doing literally anything.

And I do close more drawers than I leave open.

But.

At your house?

Or are you going elsewhere and closing other drawers to make up the gap?

Generally speaking, yeah.

What's going on in your life that's so distracting that you can't close a drawer?

Well, I am a full-time student in a

full-time student, and I also have two jobs, and I am involved in a lot of

political student organizing as well.

What is your

graduate student, I presume?

No, so I'm actually a returning undergrad graduate student because I never did that when I was the right age.

You didn't take any college at all?

I did, but I dropped out.

There's no such thing as the right age to go to college.

If, as I do, you believe in a a love of lifelong learning.

Thank you.

Caitlin, I would like to hear a little bit more about your journey.

You took a little bit of college when you were graduated from high school, right?

Yes.

And

what college did you matriculate upon?

So

I

will refer to myself as a collector of college credits at

various different institutions across the Northeast.

I started at a place called Albright College in Reading, Pennsylvania.

Don't know it.

That I stayed there for one semester.

Sounds like a scam.

It might have been.

And then I transferred to Temple University in Philadelphia.

Sure.

And I stayed there for one semester.

And then I took one class at a community college.

And then I took several classes at Ramapo College in Mawa, New Jersey.

Mawa.

Mawah.

One of the great township names of all time.

And now I am a student at Columbia University.

That sounds fantastic.

And so,

to what do you attribute your wandering, your educational wanderings?

Did you always have an idea of what you wanted to do, or was your mind changing, or was there another motive?

It was more just that I wasn't happy at the schools with the academic programs or the really anything about them I didn't like.

Their wonderful programmes.

I mean, you weren't happy with Albright College, which was basically a tent in the middle of a field with some carnies wandering around taking your chicks.

That is very accurate.

No offense to any alumni of

Albright College, I'm sure, is a fine learning institute.

By the way, really good job conjugating alumni.

Just like how

I do what I can

occasionally.

And so when you went...

Just so I can get a sense of your whole journey, when you matriculated at Albright Tent School, your major was probably going to be

filmmaking.

Filmmaking.

And now you're at Columbia studying.

Politics.

Politics.

And how far away are you from your undergraduate degree?

I will be finishing in May.

Oh, fantastic.

Congratulations.

And without inquiring too directly towards your age, how long has this journey been from first semester, first year to graduation this year, would you say?

It's okay.

I'm comfortable with my age.

I'm 30 years old.

Well done.

I will be graduating at.

Fantastic.

And have you enjoyed yourself up there at Columbia?

Oh, yes.

I love it there.

It's wonderful.

And you're also involved with a lot of extracurriculars?

Yes, that is correct.

And explain what that is to me.

So I do a lot of stuff with the political science department.

I am the president of the Political Science Honor Society and I was

previously the president of just the general major, the major club.

I also do a lot of,

I'm one of the leaders of the Columbia University Students for Hillary

and just generally a lot of stuff surrounding civic engagement and student voting and getting involved with local government.

Fantastic.

And what will you do when you get your bachelor's degree?

I don't know.

Right.

But if you had an idea, if you had to, I mean, maybe take another 10 years to just sort of drift around for a while.

I actually hope to work

immediately after graduating.

I would love to do something with global development.

I currently have, one of my jobs is in that field, so I really am enjoying that and I would like to pursue that more.

You know that an appearance on the Judge John Hodgman podcast is considered to be a fast track to the Bilderberg group.

So get ready to get some calls.

I hope your resume is printed out and that

your human lizard qualifications are in order.

Very good.

Yes.

Let the record show she attempted to remove her human guise.

But these people are not ready for that yet, so I stopped her.

So, Rob,

you have a fascinating girlfriend.

I know.

May I ask what is your educational history?

You went to some college for four years and then decided you would work at a website?

That is correct.

What is your age, if not 30?

29.

You're 29, and you live on the Upper West West Side because Caitlin is attending Columbia, or are you have work up there?

That's right.

We live in a campus apartment, not a dorm, but a

campus owned apartment.

Of course.

On what street?

114th.

114.

You know, I used to live on 104th Street in Columbus.

Yeah.

You ever go to Coronet Pizza?

Yes.

There's no point.

I don't need your judgment.

Hello,

Jesse.

Coronet Pizza on Broadway and

the Street.

I remember it so well.

The pizza, each slice of pizza is as large as my bench.

Fantastic.

Why did he greet that news with a wistful sigh?

Because a large slice of pizza does not a good slice of pizza make.

This court disagrees with you.

There's no good slice in that neighborhood.

It's really terrible.

He seems like you have a lot of complaints about a lot of things.

Mostly food-related.

Did you attend a four-year university?

I did.

And what was that, I may ask?

Emerson College in Boston.

Emerson College in Boston.

And communications or stand-up comedy?

That's a legitimate question.

Communications.

Communications.

And

what is your job now?

I'm a copywriter.

Copywriter at a company?

Yes.

All right, good.

And

may the record also show that you are wearing an old-timey sports hat of some kind.

What is the...

to me, it's a J and a C.

Is that the baseball team of Jesus Christ?

It's the Jersey City Giants.

They were a team that existed in the 1950s and then they were the farm league for the Giants.

I can tell you you want to talk about this all night, sir.

Great news, so do I.

Let's get into it.

I have to say it's a very handsome hat.

So how long have you guys been living together in university-owned housing?

So we've been living in university housing for a little more than two years, but we've been living together in other apartments for about three and a half years.

Okay, and Rob, has this always been a problem for you, Caitlin's untidiness?

It's always existed, but it's not really been

an issue that affects my life until we move into this apartment, which is significantly smaller than our previous apartment.

And I believe, I'm sorry, go ahead.

Rob, could you describe, if I were to walk into your apartment on a typical day, what might I find open a jar or a skew?

It's that great party game.

You can pick three people, open a jar or a skew.

Look at your face.

Open a jar or a skew.

All right, go ahead.

There's a desk that is to to your immediate left as you enter the apartment, and usually the cabinet of that, well, not usually, but frequently the cabinet of that will be open, possibly also the drawers.

Kitchen, there might be some drawers open, and also bedroom, there might be some dresser drawers open.

Now, Caitlin, there could be a perfectly reasonable explanation for all of this.

Are you putting away clean sheets or perhaps

looking for a place for a baby to sleep in a circa 1910 tenement?

Frequently, I will open a drawer and I'll leave it open because I will be needing to go back to it multiple times, and it seems like it's open.

And once it's closed, that's the end of that.

Well, it seems like excess work.

It's more effort to, like, if you're going to be going in and out of it, you leave it open.

And then frequently.

You're doing like a reverse Fitbit thing, were you?

You're trying to minimize your steps.

Yes, and then frequently

I have

get pulled away from whatever the task that I'm doing, either because something is demanding my time or it's because I get distracted with something else that I have to do.

So I.

You're too busy.

You're too busy to close a drawer.

I got it.

Okay, Rob.

I'm too busy to remember to close the drawer.

I understand.

Rob, you entered some, you have some evidence that you want to present to the court?

Sure.

Visual evidence.

I submitted it, yes.

Or have it with me.

Bailiff Jesse, let's see the evidence.

We'll enter this as exhibit A.

It's going to come up on the screen behind me.

And I'm not going to bother to turn around until I know that it's up there.

Is it up there, guys?

Thank you very much.

I'm just trying to minimize my steps.

You could have known that it was up there by the disturbed gasp that just came out of the audience.

Okay, what I see here are some ripped-up envelopes on top of a butcher block counter.

What are we seeing, Rob?

It's actually on the floor.

Oh, the floor, excuse me.

I'm sorry.

In my house, I keep an oriental rug on top of our counters.

I should preface and say that

in anticipation of the podcast, Caitlin seemed to try to minimize the clutter,

but I still found a lot of stuff leaving.

Oh, so this is post-minimalization.

That's right.

I see.

Very well.

Let's see the next slide, please.

So, this is a water bottle that's been been there for about a week.

And by there, you mean where?

It's on our bathroom sink, right in like prime elbow knocking over space.

Right.

And prime water bottle space, of course, in anyone's home.

You also managed to sneak in some buzz marketing for Myers Clean Day and water pick

and reach toothbrushes.

All right, so how come that water bottle is there all the time?

Before we look at the next slide, can I just indicate that in this apartment they have six toothbrushes?

Zadi.

You know what?

I appreciate your careful eye, Bailiff Jesse.

Forget about the water bottle.

Why do you guys have so many toothbrushes?

Hold on, hold on, time out.

Six manual toothbrushes and two electric toothbrushes and one water pick.

Answer, what is the reason for that?

I honestly don't know.

Have you ever?

We have very good dental hygiene.

How many,

Caitlin, how many times a day do you brush your teeth?

Like two or three.

Two or three.

All right, now you said the socially acceptable answer.

What is the actual answer?

No, really, probably three.

Okay.

And why do you have so many toothbrushes and electric and all that kind of stuff?

Well, one of them, the blue one up front, is my travel toothbrush that I'll bring with me.

Trappy tooth.

And then

the other ones I'm not sure.

I have a theory.

Go on.

I think we just have

left a bunch of toothbrushes there that we've used in the past because we think it looks cooler in that little rack right there.

You're right, it does look pretty cool.

Next slide, please.

If anybody here works for Dwell Magazine, call us after and we'll hook you up with that toothbrush picture.

So here we have a set of drawers.

Not only are they open, but they're open in an almost Aztec step pyramid array.

Is this your tribute to Chichen Itza?

What's going on here, Caitlin?

Mornings are difficult for me.

So when I'm getting ready,

I usually will wear more than one outfit before I leave the house.

And

this is the byproduct of that.

Wait a minute.

Do you wear more than one?

You try on a bunch of outfits?

Yes.

Okay.

How many on balance?

As many as toothbrushing sessions?

I would say two.

Two or three.

Yeah, right.

Okay, gotcha.

Next slide.

Whoa.

Now, here we see what I can only describe as a cold cream cairn.

Three bottles of moisturizer stacked on top of each other.

And then

very...

Another electric toothbrush

trying to

stay incognito behind them.

Say, I'm not an electric toothbrush.

I'm just a tall thing in a a pink hat.

Well, how could I be a toothbrush?

I'm standing behind this tower of cold cream with a watted-up piece of Kleenex at my feet.

I certainly wouldn't be a toothbrush.

Next slide, please.

Now we come to the pizza box cairn.

Rob, you're incapable of picking this stuff up.

I'm very capable.

In fact, I picked it up right after I took the photo.

Do you have any?

I mean, you're a student,

and Robbie has some job or whatever it is.

I presume you don't have someone helping out with the cleaning around the house at this time

in your lives.

We've gotten, we've, you know, paid for cleaning services here and there, maybe twice in this apartment, but that's

each time they've refused to return.

Yeah, right.

Okay, how many more slides do we have?

I'm not sure.

That was it.

All right, good.

Somehow I knew.

So, what would you have me order if I were to find in your favor, Rob?

I would order that Caitlin becomes more diligent about picking up after herself because a lot of this stuff can be remedied in like less than ten seconds.

I would also maybe order

more of a deeper dive into organization

via maybe some learnings from

the life-changing magic of tidying up or other such.

How many copies of that book do you have at your house?

There's one at the moment.

Five of them stacked on top of each other with a toothbrush hiding behind it.

Rob, Caitlin, I don't want to be personal, but do you think that you will continue cohabiting for much longer in your lives?

Absolutely.

And

maybe moving towards a legal partnership called marriage?

Certainly.

And have you proposed?

No.

And

is this kind of an ultimatum?

No.

No.

All right.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

Please rise.

I'm going to go into my chambers and take a little nap on my nest of toothbrushes, and I'll be back in a moment to give you my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Rob, how do you feel living in a house like this?

I feel

most of the time, baseline, fantastic.

Love Caitlin very, very much, but sometimes it does add some stress

to my life.

Caitlin, I guess the part that I'm not understanding here, and I hope that you can help me, is the physical process of taking something something out of a cabinet while leaving the cabinet open.

So, I'm going to mime something and I want you to tell me where I've gone wrong.

So, I'm reaching to the cabinet, I'm going to get a glass for a glass of water.

I'm reaching to the cabinet, I've grasped the handle now.

Are we all clear?

Same Z's?

Yes.

Okay.

I'm drawing it open.

100% the same?

Gotcha.

I'm reaching in to grab a glass.

Yes.

I've pulled the glass out.

This is where you're going to go wrong.

Because if the cabinet stays open, something has happened to pull you away from the cabinet.

But my hand is on the cabinet.

My hand's still on the cabinet.

My hand hasn't left the cabinet, Caitlin.

What's that?

The phone rang.

I have to register some voters?

Let the audio record show that in each case, as I turned around, I closed the cabinet

almost effortlessly.

Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all of this.

Please rise metaphorically as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

Caitlin,

I admire greatly your journey and your commitment to

not committing to one course of study or another until you really knew what you wanted to do.

And I think it's an I admire the fact that you took your time and figured it out.

And then obviously when you were ready to return and be graduated from college,

you aspired to and reached arguably the highest level to go to an Ivy League university here in New York City.

You did a good job, and I think you're going to continue to do good jobs in the future.

And I don't doubt that you are super duper busy and you got a lot on your mind that is more important than clothes and drawers.

That is a small petty thing that only someone who went straight through college and got a job would care about.

And you know, of course,

The court advises against cohabitation before marriage largely for this reason.

Living together, and look,

it's not a moral issue, you know what I mean?

Living together is a super drag.

Living together requires a tremendous amount of accommodation of other humans that none of us wants to make.

You have to suddenly be, you have to merge your own, your different standards of cleanliness.

You have to merge your sleep schedules into one disgusting, fart-filled bed.

You have to merge, essentially merge your finances because all of a sudden you have to buy groceries together and pay bills together and you get to enjoy the terrible financial partnership of marriage without any of the legal protections.

This is all a matter of record on the podcast.

Obviously you haven't looked it up.

And you have to merge your habits of leaving pizza boxes in front of the refrigerator versus cleaning them up.

And this is frustrating because what ends up happening is that the person who is more tidy ends up

managing the environment

more and resenting the other person.

And I wouldn't, I would be lying to you if I didn't say I had some personal experience with this.

Because indeed, I married a person whose standards of tidiness are not my own.

And it has been a lifelong struggle.

And I love that person very much.

But shoes belong in the closet.

But the record showed that Caitlin has never heard of shoes going into a closet before in her life.

What concerns me more

than even the unclosed drawers is the incredible number of toothbrushes in your home.

You're putting you can speak Caitlin if you have to you can jump in there if you need to are you saying that's Rob that's all Rob I do believe yes They are all Rob's

one of them is mine

One of them is yours, and the rest are Rob's?

Yes.

I'll be honest, I didn't even realize those were there, so

that's maybe something I need to work on.

I think you both need to work on things.

Insofar as the subject of this suit, I am ordering you, Caitlin, to close drawers.

And that is a basic part of humanity that I think

you need to embrace.

But I will say, for both of you, it is time to read the everyday magic of tidying up and touch each one of those toothbrushes

and determine whether it sparks joy or not.

Whether or not you have different standards of tidiness, neither of you deserves to live amid garbage on the floor or watted up toilet paper or tissue paper underneath piles of pond cold cream on the counter.

Go ahead, Caitlin.

Go ahead.

Well, there's not a lot of garbage.

Those photos were selectively taken.

Yeah, he took pictures of the garbage.

Yes.

But that is a very unusual situation.

It's usually not, you know, usually it's books that he complains about.

It's like books.

Books and novels.

The weird thing about clutter is that

you don't see it.

It becomes something that you don't notice anymore the more you live with it.

And even Rob didn't realize, oh my god, I got 45 toothbrushes in this house.

Like, the more you get used to it, the more you don't see it.

But I think that, in my opinion, it still affects you and your state of mind.

And when you leave things around on the floor and you leave drawers open and you leave your whole world in disarray, the more you are inclined to feel like my whole life is in disarray, I don't have time to close these drawers.

I think it's a feedback loop.

I think it will be easier in your lives, although I'm not sure that you will ever have the exact same standards of tidiness, if you close those drawers.

And Rob, you got rid of some of those toothbrushes.

If you got a little less of that visual clutter out of your lives, I don't think this would be as much as a conflict.

So, insofar as the suit was against Caitlin for not shutting drawers, I do find in Rob's favor, but you've got to get rid of some toothbrushes.

Decompost, you guys.

This is the sound of a gabble, Judge Sean Hoggy World's out of it.

Ladies and gentlemen, Rob and Caitlin.

Thank you, Rob and Caitlin.

You know, Judge Hodgman,

it's not just us on this show.

We also have a very able musical guest.

And I had a conversation backstage with one of the members of the band.

He said, well, what kind of songs would you like us to play on the show tonight?

Right.

I'm always glad to help.

I said, look, play what what you love to play.

And just know that if you want to play something sweet and tender, don't feel like it's out of place in the context of a comedy show.

Our audience is a thoughtful, caring audience.

They're going to love it no matter what it is.

Right.

And he said, okay, cool.

Usually we just go hard.

And I was like, all right, then.

Ladies and gentlemen, you are about to find out that Pitch Black Brass Band does go hard.

You have seen them on the Chris Gethard Show, Summer Stage, Lincoln Center, all over Brooklyn, and right now you're going to hear them on this very stage.

Please put your hands together for the Pitch Black Brass Band.

All right, we're going to do something kind of chill and vibey, and then we're going to rock it out.

Are you ready?

All right, bro.

We're gonna do it.

Yes,

those trombones, though.

Let me see some hand clips.

Come on,

come on, bro.

Hooray

to everybody who smokes

I want you to put one finger in the air

like so

how y'all doing out here tonight?

Come on, make some noise if y'all join the show.

What's going on?

This is a boy twinkie song.

Boy's pet song.

If you still smoke, roll it up, blunts, flips, tennis ball rips.

Make some noise real quick.

Shit,

hot, yeah.

Spitch water.

Shit, shit, shit.

I need to go real quick.

Yeah, bounce.

Bounce,

bounce,

bounce,

bounce,

bounce,

bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce,

bounce,

bounce,

bounce, bounce.

All turns up shit.

You gotta run up, who out you like it.

You gotta fight, you gotta go.

You get too high, you gotta fight.

Oh, no problem,

bro.

You gotta go up,

We got fucking fucking good.

Tearing up, people told me

that the party's been asked by you.

So mission, that's what I thought.

I'm not fucking fucking out of the way.

So we're standing on that by the past.

I was just a confession.

I was a spot.

So I'm right,

right beside.

You gotta go up and out.

You like a boy, preaching to the front.

Even get you high, You like us a bottle, the world's the stop.

That's it, you gotta go and put out your likeness.

You like a bottle, you're preaching to the front, you can get you high.

You're like there's a rush, but I'm gonna draft all the gifts top rough.

Four quints well, that keeps the hands on the top shot.

You won't stop, I'm feeling

like I'm on.

Present too, feel me.

And when people understand, thinking everything,

I see it and respect.

I'm not

because I put it in the court.

I love the planet.

So I sit here.

Enjoy my freedom.

Turn it into my

broken.

Correctly just fucking

love to see what's the beat.

Folks in the air to be sleep.

Folks are the enemies to see.

Fucking the richer league.

Ready to pour a love for the heart.

That's pretty nice.

Stop right.

Right beside.

That's it.

You gotta go and pull out your likes.

Be like a fire, you're free to left for wire.

Feeling it's just high, I feel like a survivor.

Stop right, right beside that.

You gotta go and pull out your likes.

Take it like a fire, push it to the fire.

You gotta go

on the wrong time.

You let it fall, feel

fire.

Ladies and gentlemen, the pitch black brass band.

That's Max, Elena, CJ, Brian, Chanel, Ashley, Ben, Brian, Allison, your pitch black brass fan of Brooklyn, New York.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at maximumfund.org, and they are all your favorites.

If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic.

Just go to maximumfund.org/slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Quince.

Jesse, the reviews are in.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

Shall we get on with the cases, Judge Hoshman?

We have some friends of the show here tonight.

Oh, my goodness gracious, yes.

Let's see.

Judge Hoshman, do you remember episode 186, the commune-ish manifesto?

Yes, I believe that featured Jenny and Aaron.

Yeah, why don't we bring Jenny and Aaron up to the stage and see how they're doing?

They're doing Jenny and Aaron, ladies and gentlemen.

Jenny and Aaron, you live in a communal living situation.

Is that correct?

Yes, we do.

You both have husbands.

We do.

and you both have children no only aaron does only aaron has husbands okay uh has children

jenny shares mine right okay so you share you share the children yes no we don't sure you share everything no no just the children you share everything in the commune

do you share your your gorp and textured soy protein absolutely okay and where is the commune again New Jersey.

New Jersey.

And what it is, is it's a house.

It's a house.

And you're two married couples who are sharing resources.

But for a while, if I remember correctly,

you were a little self-conscious about explaining this to the casual acquaintances in your life.

And so you lied, right?

Erin lied.

Erin lied.

Erin would say, what?

What was your lie?

That she was my sister, or I really didn't know what to say, or my kid's aunt.

Right.

You told different lies because you wanted to be caught.

Yes, yes.

And sometimes I pretended I didn't know her.

So you would go to school and say, say,

Jenny is my sister, or she's my mother, or she's my sister, or she's my mother.

I never.

Forget it, school system, it's New Jersey.

I never, yeah.

I never called her my mother.

People just assumed.

Whoa!

Commune is over.

Throwing shade is a part of your communal lifestyle, I take it.

When one of you burns another, do you guys both take care of the burns?

Yeah, we share the aloe.

Right, all right.

Share the aloe.

And I ruled that you should stop lying and own your own truth.

And is that what happened?

That's exactly what happened.

Erin did a wonderful job.

The other day, she was telling

a mom that she met at school that I was her friend, but then she said, and she was going to homeschool my kid for a while.

So then we sounded weird again.

She was so close.

Were you going to homeschool Erin's kids?

Yes, that was on the table, one of the kids.

She started, she just quit.

Is that so?

Where is the aloe?

Yes.

Because she enrolled him in school.

Oh, okay.

She wasn't very good.

Jenny, I don't remember.

I'm sorry.

Oh, man.

Not just aloe.

We're going to eat all kinds of unguents.

This is how Jonestown started.

In any case, you are now living in the light of truth, as Father Hodgman told you to do.

Absolutely, sir.

I have not received an invitation to come and wear robes and teach you.

It's in the mail?

Okay.

You know that I refused to receive mail.

That's not.

Oh, that's what happened.

That's how they get my thoughts.

But now things are more or less in order, even though there's a consistent burn rate between the two of you.

The commune is in balance, and you're telling the truth, and you're not lying about your situation.

Absolutely.

Have there been incidents?

Have there been situations where the truth led to difficult circumstances?

Have you had to explain yourself?

We don't do that very often.

We just let it lay.

You don't talk to others.

No one will talk to us.

Yeah, the judge last time said you don't have friends in New Jersey and you never will.

And that's true.

Yeah, no one will talk to us.

Whoever that judge was, a very wise man.

It's worked out well.

Like, they said that Jenny can volunteer at school and her husband can volunteer for the Boy Scouts if they want to, but they don't.

But anyways, yeah, everyone.

Was that in question, honestly, because of your unusual living arrangement?

Or did you just fear that it was in question?

Yeah, we feared it, but it wasn't necessarily in question.

Are the two of you still lady Rotarians?

No, Aaron did try to join various

well, a pyramid scheme and then some strange clubs, but

we're not Rotary members.

Maren, what pyramid scheme did you...

What pyramid scheme was it that would not have you?

You know what?

Never mind.

We don't want your money.

You're in a commune.

No, thank you.

It was related to essential oils.

So yeah.

Go on.

I knew within like 24 hours I should not have done it, but I did.

But what is it that you did?

I bait them.

You what?

Like I bought into the

essential oils.

And then I was supposed to sell it to someone else, and they sell it to someone else, and they sell it to someone else.

I have not sold it to anyone.

I realize

too.

But will you be available between shows this evening?

Yeah.

Jenny has the obviously more mature sister wife.

Why didn't you stop Erin?

I did.

I tried to stop her.

I told her not to do it, and she didn't listen, and she's her own person.

How did you even...

This is, how does this come?

How does this happen that you're like, this is a good idea?

I'm going to sell essential oils.

Did you answer an ad in in the back of Grit magazine?

What's going on?

Well, I hadn't really fully embraced your statement that

we don't have friends and we never will.

So someone approached you.

Yeah.

Who approached you?

Some mom with a library.

Her kid was crying, and then, you know, she's like, oh, you can put this on your kid, and they'll never, they'll sleep better at night.

I can't put it on my kids.

I bought it and I can't put it on my kids.

I really,

I really want to see a 13-episode drama on Hulu about

your weird township.

Yeah, I feel like this could be the next the slap.

All right.

But at least now that the pyramid scheme is over and the lying has stopped, you guys are in balance.

Are there any other disputes that I can see?

Well, I have one quick one that Erin is still upset about from last December.

Her husband and I went to a holiday party together.

Makes total sense, right?

Wait a minute.

Her husband and you

went to a party together.

Right.

Right.

And

they had gift bags.

It was on those things.

You guys made out a little bit.

No.

And

why did you go?

I'm just kidding.

No, we did not, sir.

Why did you go to a holiday party with Erin's husband?

Well, Erin couldn't go.

She was babysitting the kids.

They were sick.

And my husband had to work.

So he was the last person available.

I see.

Okay.

So while her kids were sick with fever,

like, well, your husband and I are going to go, where was the party?

In Greenwich Village.

Is that a real place?

Yes, right?

Okay.

Yes.

Well, I've seen it in movies.

Your husband, I'm going to go see the big city for the first time.

Your husband is taking me.

It was a boss.

He tells me that we're allowed to celebrate Christmas this year.

Alright, so what happened?

Aside from the swingers aspect of this,

what happened?

So we went to the party and it was one of those fancier parties and they had gift bags.

Oh.

And so we, it was a vodka party and we had too much vodka.

A vodka party.

It was.

It was sponsored by a vodka company.

We had too much vodka and we forgot to get the gift bag.

When we got home.

And by a gift bag, you mean the bag was glass and was full of vodka?

Probably.

When we got home, Erin had already researched the party online and knew there were gift bags.

It's the saddest thing in the world.

Exactly.

She's just.

All you hear in the house is click, click.

With a single tear face.

Click, click.

I thought for sure they were coming home with all kinds of great stuff to give to me

because I was to contribute to the family horror.

Erin loves free stuff and free alcohol.

And so

we came home, we forgot the gift bags, and she is still upset about it.

She's so mad about it.

She's looked at, she shows us pictures of other people enjoying the things from the gift bags.

Like, I'm sorry.

What was in the gift bag, Erin, since you researched it?

Socks.

And this

sweater and like a hat and bodies.

I feel like Erin's weird obsession saved a social media manager's job.

It was the only likes there.

The fact that Erin researched the gift bag and knows that it contained at least socks

and probably, although she doesn't want to admit it right now, knows every other item that was in the gift bag.

Absolutely.

To me, I think suggests a level of care that needs to be rewarded.

You took her husband to Greenwich Village

for

a gin party, excuse me, a vodka party.

For, let's be honest, an episode of Mad Man.

That's right.

You have to go into your own private savings.

Do your husbands allow you to keep some money for yourself?

They do.

And you keep a little behind the wall.

All right, go into your coffee can and you have to replicate that gift bag for your sister wife, Erin.

Okay.

Jenny and Aaron, ladies and gentlemen.

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the stage Charlie and Liza.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no, no, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lollum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Tonight, the most important trial of the day.

Charlie brings the case against his girlfriend Liza.

He works overnight as a writer and wakes up later in the day than she does.

They often disagree about about what can be considered breakfast since he eats his breakfast during her lunch.

Charlie thinks his schedule and meal names should be taken seriously.

Litha thinks he should keep in mind the time of day when naming his meals.

Who's right, who's wrong, only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers the obscure cultural reference.

I cook about 90 dozen eggs every Saturday and every Sunday and I enjoy cooking them each time I do it.

I like cracking the eggs into a bowl.

I like breaking the yolks and whisking them with cream for scrambled eggs.

I like watching the ripples form as they cook and I like the process of gently running my fork through cooked eggs as they create space for the raw egg to get into the pan.

When I'm making fried eggs and sunnies, I like hitting the butter into the pan.

I like sliding the eggs into the butter.

There's nothing else I'd rather be doing.

I don't come to the task from a place of drudgery or boredom.

I come to it from a place of curiosity and love.

To be a good cook, you have to.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear the meal.

Raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he eats only fourth meal?

I do.

I definitely do.

Very well.

Judge Hodgman.

Liza and Charlie, for an immediate summary of judgment and one of yours favors.

Can either of you identify the piece of culture I referenced as I entered the courtroom.

Liza, you are brought here against your will.

Can you name it for me?

It sounds like something Charlie would write, actually.

I will guess.

Will you guess first?

You actually can guess second if you want.

You You can force Charlie to guess first.

I'll guess first.

Oh, nice.

I like that.

Well done.

Guess

Melissa Waters, maybe?

Melissa Waters, a food writer.

Yeah.

Correct?

All right.

Charlie?

Is it

Michael Ruhlman, the cookbook eggs, maybe?

Michael Ruhlman?

Ruhman.

I don't know, but the cookbook is eggs.

All right.

Let's put both of those into the guess book and scramble them up.

Let me take a look at them.

Now they're all dripping with eggs.

Disgusting.

But all guesses are wrong.

I was quoting from a different cookbook.

The cookbook is called Eat Me by Kenny Shopson of Shopson's General Store and the father of Tamara Shopson, who designed one of the t-shirts in the T-shirt club, who loves cooking eggs and does a really good job of it.

And now we have to talk about your penchant for eating breakfast at all hours of the day and night and lunch

in the antipodes.

So what's happening with you, Charlie?

Why are you eating breakfast at lunchtime?

So, I work nights, so when I wake up

in the morning, but it's actually around 2 p.m., is when I eat breakfast.

And then I follow that meal at an appropriate interval with another meal that I call lunch, and my final meal of the day I call dinner.

And when is that usually consumed?

Oh, it gets a little bit confusing because working nights is

I tend to eat dinner around dinner time, even though that's confusing, but it's more lunch and breakfast to get the

strange time.

And when you say you work nights, you're a night watchman, or you work in a mine, or an overnight

job in a hospital, or whatever.

I do the night shift for a news website.

Oh, okay.

So you're a writer at nights.

And so you gather news?

Yes, yeah.

And so you work from when to when?

It varies.

Nine is when I start, usually until about three, sometimes four.

This is a terrible existence that you're leading.

Is this what you want in your life?

I want

parts of that, not the time.

I would prefer to do what I'm doing now in the day for more money and longer hours.

Oh

what a strange request.

And how long have you been together?

Eight years.

Uh-huh.

Eight years considering that you've never slept?

Yeah, right.

All right.

And Liza, what's your problem with

his nomenclature about his meals?

Well, so it's not not so much of an issue if it's

us having a meal.

The issue comes into play if we're trying to organize something with other people.

So we'll call our friends and say, hey, well.

Well, no, he works from 9 p.m.

to 3 a.m.

There are no other people in this place.

It's becoming that way.

Partly.

Just because you name a squirrel doesn't make it a person.

Right.

So we'll call a friend at 2 o'clock on a Saturday and Charlie will say, hey, do you want to go out for breakfast?

I'll say, what do you mean?

No, I just had lunch.

That ship has sailed.

So

it's difficult to make plans.

Because the ships are always sailing.

How long has this been part of your, this schedule been part of your life, Charlie?

To varying degrees for a long time.

I've been doing this job for nine months, but earlier jobs I've done have also been night.

And before that, even I did night life and food and wine writing.

So even then, I'd be doing events in the evening.

I'm going to say, I'm a night person.

I've been always been

a night person, we wouldn't have the job.

It says so right on your resume.

Right.

But you can't hire this guy for daytime.

Right, yeah.

So how but in your relationship, how long has this gone on?

Oh, wow.

Well, a big chunk of our relationship was like this because I was in Hong Kong and she was here.

So actually it was.

Then it doesn't matter what you call your meal.

No, it doesn't matter because you weren't together.

Right, yeah, right.

Right.

But

yeah, so for about nine months, maybe probably push it to about a year, maybe.

So why don't you just say when you wake up on 2 p.m.

on a Saturday and you call a friend, and you say, do you want to get something to eat?

I mean, that's practically what I do for the most part.

It's

when I say breakfast, because that comes naturally to me and becomes an issue that I feel it's wrapped up in other things.

It's like it's

unwrapped that.

It marginalizes my existence.

Just because I work at night doesn't mean, you know, it's not a job and my first meals are breakfast.

It means you're a weird troglodyte.

Yeah, right, exactly.

It deserves respect.

So

you're saying as a matter of personal respect,

people should call lunch, breakfast.

No, people should always call.

Charlie, do you sincerely believe that mole men and humans are equal?

To a point, yes.

In terms of eating, yes.

Liza, what do you do?

I'm a student.

A student of what?

Of business.

Weird creatures.

Nighttime creatures?

At the nighttime, yes.

Sorry, you're a student of what now?

I study business at NYU.

At NYU.

And you guys live in whereabouts?

In Fort Greene.

In Fort Greene, Brooklyn.

Excellent.

There's a lot of great breakfast for lunch places around there.

Yeah, there really are, yeah.

And has this always been a problem, Liza?

Off and on.

So I think it's kind of been an issue throughout his life.

I submitted an affidavit from his mother who would attest to this being an ongoing issue.

Do we have that affidavit here, handy?

I hope not.

No, huh.

But it's been.

Can you testify to the contents of that affidavit?

It was basically her saying it's been frustrating her for many years and

you know, she can't always conform to Charlie's theories of time.

Well,

is it more an issue of what the meal is called or when Charlie wants to eat foods?

Okay.

That's a great question.

I know.

He's a professional.

I only ask the great ones.

So for me, honestly, probably the larger issue is he'll eat quote-unquote breakfast at 2 o'clock and then want to have a lunch at 4 before we have dinner at 7.

Well, yeah.

So

it's a meal spacing issue for me more than a nomenclature problem.

But for him, it's more of a...

pedantic, I want to be able to call this breakfast because it is literally my breakfast.

Okay, walk me through your day, Charlie.

Or your

night, I don't know what division.

Night Twilight, Your day night, whatever, your schedule.

So you're up until 3 a.m.

Yeah, I'll say 3.

Gathering and disseminating news on the internet.

Right.

And then where are you working?

On the couch of my apartment.

The couch of your apartment,

and then you go to bed.

Yeah, so then I will maybe give myself an hour of television watching.

What do you watch at that time?

Go to bed.

Yesterday, bored to death, to be totally honest.

That's

well chosen.

Meandering.

I didn't mean that.

That doesn't help me now, but thank you.

Perhaps with your mastery of space and time, you could.

All right, and then you fall asleep on the couch.

I try not to, but it usually happens.

Yes, I try to go to bed.

And I always try to set my alarm for eight hours from when I go to sleep.

So that would be like

four in the morning.

So let's say four in the morning until noon in this case.

Right.

So then you get up and eat breakfast.

I get up and if she's not at school, we'll maybe go out to a meal.

If not, I'll just cook breakfast.

Let's just say in your world.

In my case, I'll get up and cook breakfast.

Right, and breakfast for you is a three-course turkey dinner.

Right.

Maybe like eggs and sausage.

I'm a pretty traditional breakfast eater.

And then we'll eat lunch maybe three to three and a half hours later from that point, maybe a little bit longer than that.

And then dinner.

And then dinner comes as late as I can get Liza to eat dinner with me.

Which is in your ideal world?

Nine would be great.

Actually, eight.

That way I could start working then.

I see.

Okay.

And but you eat traditional breakfast, lunch, and dinner foods in those, that's not the

not as a rule, but typically, yeah.

All right.

So you eat.

So you make her eat lunch at 3.30.

I don't make her.

Then she eats lunch of her own choice each day in between breakfast and dinner at 3.30.

Then you have dinner together at 9.

Then you work without eating for seven hours.

I'll snack a little.

Is it like six almonds like President Obama?

I tried to do a traditional dinner, you know, whatever it would be, five hours kind of in between meals.

And even though I'm used to this schedule by now eating a meal at midnight or so, I can never feel hungry.

It doesn't feel right.

It feels, I I don't know, it doesn't work for me, and I've tried.

And so this is what works for my appetites.

Do you feel respected by your girlfriend?

In almost everything, except for when I say, Would you like to get breakfast?

and she corrects me.

That's pretty much it.

Or lunch.

Liza,

do you think that if I were to order

Charlie to call breakfast lunch

and to call lunch dinner and to call his dinner something he eats after you've gone to bed

and change that nomenclature and standardize that that it would in any way address the obvious systematic problems that you guys have between your two schedules.

No, not at all.

I think my request is actually much simpler.

If he wants to call that at home while he's cooking, that's fine.

It's more making plans with other people that are generally more on my schedule.

You don't want him to force his sick worldview on other people.

That's right.

I've come to accept it, you know,

as part of the deal.

I believe in your right to live your life the way you want to live it.

You just don't have to be up on my face all the time about it.

Or trying to explain it to other people constantly.

Well, that sounds boring.

Yeah,

it gets redundant.

Charlie, a quick point of clarification.

Are you able to walk safely amongst men?

Yes.

Even when the sun is out.

Yes.

Thank you.

What steps are you taking

since you are a day walker?

What steps are you taking to avoid blade?

A lot of mirrors.

I have a lot of mirrors in my house.

Do you always keep a copy of the tax filing papers?

It seems to me like your schedules are a little bit untenable and that the out of syncness that they experience is just going to increase and increase and increase until it is unstable.

Yeah, this is kind of what happened.

So I brought this as a basic kind of language.

I thought this would be an easy, like, literal case to rule about what the definition of breakfast is.

As soon as they even brought this up.

The definition of breakfast is bacon and eggs.

If that's all you need to know, get out of here.

Give me my gavel.

But then this brought it up.

Anytime you have it.

Breakfast for dinner, that's breakfast.

Oh.

Right?

Breakfast for lunch, breakfast.

Bacon and eggs.

For snack, breakfast.

So nobody wins here.

So, but then as soon as I brought it up.

I made that ruling on the way over here without meeting you.

Not about the name.

Right, right.

Well, originally it was about the name for me, and then as soon as this became

discussed with my loved ones and friends, it turned out that my schedule was bringing up a lot of emotional reactions with people who are close to me that got wrapped up in this calling meals by certain names.

Yeah.

And so it's transformed into a bigger kind of verdict on my entire lifestyle, which is not

my original intent here.

Liza, when do you wake up in the morning?

Around 7:30.

And you go to NYU?

Yeah, occasionally.

And then

your workday ends at about 11.30 in the morning.

For instance, today it started at the end of the day.

You go to the malt shop for a little while, then you hit the books at the library.

Something like that.

We should explain that Judge Hodgman went to college in Riverdale.

When do you go to bed at night?

11 midnight.

Right.

And that's just when he's starting to get work, going on work, right?

Yeah.

So how much time do you guys actually get to experience together in a day?

So for instance, today I had class from 1.30 to 4, so

4.30 to

look, we're taking

who knows how many weird meals he had during that period of time.

I don't ask these kinds of questions.

That's fair.

Are you happy, Charlie, with the way your life is organized?

That's quite a question.

Yes.

I'm happy now.

I understand that it is not a long-term,

not tenable in a long-term way, but yes, I'm happy at the moment.

It seems to have taken a toll on you.

Yeah, I'm

hunched over.

I'm tired.

That's true.

All the time.

Yeah, you seem tired.

Your eyes are a little sunken.

You're holding a ring in one hand and constantly stroking it and calling it precious.

But I'm doing fine.

I'm okay.

How many of your meals are raw fish that you pull out of an underground pool?

Quite a few.

Are you making an effort to to

make your schedule more daytime oriented?

Yeah, yes, I was supposed to have a meeting about that today.

But you canceled it to be here.

No, it's not my fault.

Did you oversleep?

Apparently, the way the industry works is they postpone meetings like this when you want to work in the daytime for more hours over and over again.

I don't know what...

Wait a minute, are you telling me that being a journalist is a hard way to make a living?

Stop the presses.

My fear.

But I am being active and making a change in my life.

Apparently, this is what I just wanted to be clear, what you said.

Apparently, when you make a meeting in order to explore working during the daytime, they just routinely cancel it.

I'm like, what?

Someone's playing a trick on you.

Yes.

We all work in the daytime.

It's actually very common.

I'm working on it.

I'm working on it.

I fear you've been working nights for so long that there's someone gaslighting you go like, no, you know, there are no daytime jobs.

I feel that myself.

Every time you apply for one, they just cancel it.

So, gosh, I'm sorry, but you have to stay up all night again.

Somewhere

somewhere in the main office, there's a guy named Biff who's like, hey, Frank, the mole man just tried to get another meeting.

Yeah.

Right.

No, I'm sorry.

Nothing available.

Here's your daily ration of kerosene.

You're not far off.

Well, I hope you work your way up pretty soon.

What would you have me order if I were to find in your favor?

But see, I want something very basic.

I want an understanding that it's appropriate for me to consider in my life the first meal of my day as breakfast, the second meal as lunch, and the third as dinner.

And the actual time that the meals take place

doesn't matter in the way I refer to them myself.

Right.

Including like social.

Yeah, but you have freedom within your own mind.

Like any perpetual prisoner.

Right, yes.

You can imagine that your walls are a beautiful sunset.

Yeah, I would say

within a limited group of people, maybe my mother and my girlfriend,

I would like to be able to vocalize my reality and live as if I were not a freak.

I hope if you ever get married, you work that into your vows.

Liza, what would you have me order if I were to find in your favor?

Just simply when making social plans to follow social conventions, instead of having me explain the difference in Charlie's timing to everyone every weekend.

And this happens every weekend.

It's

in other words, when Charlie comes out of his cave desiring sustenance and says, let's call a friend and invite him to breakfast, you want him to say lunch instead.

Yeah, or a meal, I would settle for a meal.

Just for a meal.

Yeah, for me.

Specificity.

Okay, I think I've heard everything that I need to.

I'm going to crawl into my underground cavern and consider this very carefully.

I'll be back in a moment with my decision.

Please rise metaphorically as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Charlie, did I hear you say just now specificity

ellipsis?

I caught myself.

I am just impressed that you managed to, through just a brilliant linguistic maneuver, conflate Judge Hodgman's famous catchphrase specificity is the soul of narrative with brevity is the soul of wit

by making briefer wow

it was it was good work it was good work

thank you

Liza do you do you feel like this causes a lot of strife in your social life that you have to explain your husband's lifestyle choices

I mean, strife might be overly generous, but it's just more redundant than it is, you know, difficult.

It's just, yeah, the repetitive nature of having to explain what each meal is that has gotten to me over the years.

I'm happy to explain it for myself.

Yeah.

Charlie, you're going to have to make some friends of your own.

I think that's what this is coming to.

It seems like the two of you are very happy otherwise, though.

I think so.

But we're not eating.

Charlie,

do you think that if the judge rules in your favor, you'll finally get that meeting you've been angling for?

Take us across.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say.

Please rise metaphorically as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

Well, one solution presents itself very nicely, which is, of course, whenever you eat bacon and eggs, that is breakfast.

And so, if you eat that at 2 o'clock in the afternoon, that is breakfast, and you can call it such, and there's no problem.

And as long as we stipulate to that, we can say that your first meal is breakfast, and I can rule in your favor in that regard.

For the other thing, we call in

the

what

lunch lunch

calling dinner lunch, and then whatever moon food you eat in the middle of the night,

whatever glowing mushrooms you eat with the morlocks at the center of the earth, dinner,

and especially forcing Liza to conform to a very late and unusual eating pattern

merely to feel human, that is both

unallowable but also terribly sad.

I take pity on you, poor creature.

I think that you are attempting to normalize a situation that you are increasingly realizing is not healthy for you and not what you want in your life, and is not what is going to ultimately provide happiness for you and Liza together.

You need to

stand up to the LOI who are keeping you down beneath the earth and are telling you, nope, no more room up here on the surface.

Go back down, go back down into the deep and eat your night food.

You need to make a change in your life that is more than simply relabeling meals.

And I think that you know this to be true.

Is that so?

Yes.

Right, okay.

So, in the meantime, however, you know, I was going to rule against you,

but you know,

how can I

further debase this pitiable creature?

All he wants to do is come to Mordor with us and show us the way.

I know it might be a mistake to trust him and he might murder me down the road, but I feel a kinship with him and I want to travel this road with him for a while.

So I will allow this basic accommodation to your strange lifestyle.

Let the record show the defendant raised a withered arm and

gave a weak cry.

The celebration cry of the Mo Man.

First meal after you awaken may be called breakfast by you and referred to by you as such, and all others must conform to your weird way of life.

But after that, normal meal names.

Second meal and third meal can just be called food.

Would you like to have food at this hour?

4 p.m.

food, 6 p.m.

food,

and also let Liza eat dinner when she wants to.

And also, keep watching Bored to Death.

I'm pretty sure,

I'm pretty sure if another seven or eight of you buy the DVDs,

season four is just around the corner.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge Sean Hodgen rules, that is all.

Ladies and gentlemen, Charlie and Liza.

Well, Judge Hodgman.

Yes, Jesse Thorne, bailiff, my bailiff.

We could just run our mouths all night, but I feel like we have this dope-ass band here tonight.

I'd like to hear some more from the Pitch Black Brass Band, wouldn't you all?

Ladies and gentlemen, the Pitch Black Brass Band.

Ladies and gentlemen, sitting, please literally rise

for the pitch black brass man.

need to live with.

But I'm so rubber than I want.

I feel it.

I'm on the bottom now.

With this on like a ball.

Killing the lighting rap, nigga, hand that like dancing on the field.

This black don't fancy with some shit.

Who got who I dropped with you?

So till the rhythmic groove, put your hands up.

Hold,

hold,

hold,

hold, hey, hey.

Pitch Black Brass Band, give it up!

Pitch and McBroll, you have to get some more.

Our thanks to the Pitch Black Brass Band for playing us some amazing music in Brooklyn.

Like, for real,

they tore the house down.

Find them at pitchblackbrassband.com.

That's black, B-L-A-K.

They got some East Coast tour dates in February.

They're working on a new album coming soon.

They are a live experience that is not to be missed.

I mean, they just melted the walls.

Thanks also to the litigants who shared their disputes with us and to the staff at the Bell House for their help.

Sarah Jane D and Teddy H named this week's cases.

The show was produced by Danielle Davis, Matthew Barnhart, and of course, the one and only Jennifer Marmor.

Tickets are going quickly for Max FunCon and MaxFunCon East.

Visit maxfuncon.com for more information.

Very, very fun day in Chicago is sold out, but, but, but

there will be tickets at the door.

Don't despair.

If you really want to be there, just show up.

It's going to start at noon.

It's going to be great.

If you've got a case for Judge John Hodgman, submit it at maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

Maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

And if you're like on the fence about it, like is this important enough?

Is this good enough?

I don't know, just send it in.

We'll decide.

That's our job.

Maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho.

If you want to email us, it's hodgman at maximumfund.org.

You can follow us on Twitter.

I'm at Jesse Thorne, J-E-S-E-T-H-O-R-N.

And John Hodgman is at Hodgman.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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