Woodsy Bob Newhart

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, we're in chambers, clearing the docket.

With me, Judge John Hodgman.

Hello, Judge Hodgman.

Hello, Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

I believe we have a special guest this week.

Is that not so?

That's absolutely correct.

You, America, know him as Ron Swanson on television's parks and recreation.

You know him from many great films.

He has a brand new book, his second best-selling book.

It's called Good, Clean, Fun, Misadventures in Sawdust at Offerman Woodshop.

He's a big Judge John Hodgman fan.

It's Nick Woodshop.

That's correct.

Wait a minute.

Nick Offerman.

Hello.

I'm here to dispense justice.

We're thrilled to have you here, Nick.

I need to give a warning to the people listening at home, abroad, in their cars and zeppelins.

Nick Offerman is an incredible human specimen.

And even in a non-visual medium such as podcasting,

it is likely

that

everyone within the sound of his voice is going to feel

powerful feelings they may not understand

and are going to get so seduced

that they forget what they're doing

and or immediately start driving their cars in Zeppelins to MaxFun HQ.

in order to try

to drive directly to the voice and become its friend and servant.

Look, that's what happened to me, and I encourage it because a life with Offerman is a life that is

bedazzled with blessings.

But be careful while you drive and also be careful while you listen because sometimes Offerman gets a little salty.

Well, if your kids are driving the car right now, make them wear earmuffs.

I mean, that's basic car safety anyway.

Your Honor, I'd like to thank you for that generous introduction,

which in my house we would call over-egging the pudding.

I know, but I'm just listening to your voice and I'm rubbing my cheek against my microphone right now.

What did you do today, Nick?

Well, I've been to the wood shop this morning where I am unpacking my ukulele parts.

I'm getting ready to make a batch of ukuleles at long last.

Is it something you've been waiting to do for years?

Not only have I been waiting, but I've been talking about it for a couple of years.

I have the pieces cut out.

I have all these beautiful long, thin slats that'll become the sides and tops and backs of ukulele's.

And I've just been working through my own docket of showbiz

calendar items, yeah, and finally getting to the shop.

So not only am I wearing some fashionable jeans

today, but they're covered in sawdust.

Oh.

If you don't know,

Nick is not merely an incredibly talented actor and a television star.

He actually does have this wood shop and actually makes stuff out of wood.

And that's what your book, Good, Clean, Fun, is all about.

And I want to know what kind of wood you're making those ukuleles out of, Nick.

It's a variety.

I have some traditional koa and mango that I received from a gentleman in Hawaii.

But I'll also be...

There's some myrtle, which I know you're familiar with.

Yes.

There's some red cedar and spruce tops.

And then I have a variety of American cherry, Claro walnut, and maple.

And also one doozy out of red eucalyptus.

And how many ukuleles is the wood shop going to push out this year?

I'm shooting for a batch of 16.

And this is, I've made one so far.

And in this 16, we're going to streamline the process so then the shop can begin to make countless hoards of ukulele.

Nick, have you thought about

a further television career, not as an actor, but as like maybe a PBS woodworking host, like basically a new, new Yankee workshop?

I have thought about it.

I've met Norm Abrams.

He is

a hero in the pantheon of broadcast woodworking.

He's right at the center of that Mount Rushmore.

He is.

He is the Superman, veritably.

And it may come to pass.

You know, Showbiz has a lot of gross things about it that I have little patience for.

And so ultimately, if I could have a beautiful shop where I make the rules and I say, okay, we're going to make a table this week and we're going to do it at my pace.

And that's the show.

Yeah, that's the advantage of public television, Nick.

You can do it at your pace.

You can do it.

You can talk real slow.

You can do it at your pace because no one's waiting for you.

Public television invented ASMR.

The whole purpose of public television is to soothe.

Yeah, Bob Ross is still the most scalptingly thing on TV.

You got it.

Well, we have some people who need help and guidance, and there are very few as qualified as Nick Offerman to weigh in with such advice.

So let's move forward with the docket, shall we, Jesse?

Jesse?

Yeah, we've got a question from Liz who specifically asked for Nick's expertise.

This matter regards cocktail stirrers.

She says, recently I was sitting at the bar next to a young man who was in his mid to late 20s.

He ordered a gin and tonic and he proceeded to sip his drink through the cocktail stirrer.

Occasionally he would just kind of lean over and sip without lifting the glass from the bar.

I said nothing.

Secretly, I pitied him.

The cocktail stirrer is not a miniature straw.

A highball glass is not a juice box.

My husband and I wondered what you, Judge Hodgman, or Nick Offerman would have done in that situation.

We guess that Nick Offerman would have manned him up more directly, but your multimedia platform could influence a wider swath of today's youth.

So I appeal to you.

Would you address this on the Judge John Hodgman podcast?

I believe Mr.

Offerman has the floor.

Well, I've got some bad news.

Yes.

I would agree that a highball glass is not a juice box.

That seems self-evident.

Much the same as a hot dog is not a sandwich.

You need not pander to this court, sir.

I have both feet firmly on the floor now.

I enjoy the pandering.

This is a nice quilted maple of some age.

But I would disagree, a cocktail stirrer is, by definition, a tiny straw.

It is a long plastic tube through which you can draw your beverage.

And

I don't like old-fashioned,

snotty etiquette around.

If you want to be, quote-unquote,

hep

in some way and wear your Zoot suit and drink a cocktail properly, then by all means, you shouldn't sip through your cocktail stirrer.

But I...

Cut to Jesse Thorne and me sitting embarrassed in our zoot suits.

Nice cigarette holder.

Thank you.

I got it at my arm garter shop.

I vote for do as you please in all instances.

If you want to wrap your lips around the top of your highball glass, tilt your head back, and consume the entire

concoction at once.

Giant ice cube and all.

It's a free country.

And

the sensibility of whether or not something is manly or not, I think is something I would like to see broken down.

There's decency and then there's machismo.

And

I think there are much more indecent things one could be doing than sipping a...

No, the gin and tonic, I might raise my eyebrow.

There are much better beverages available.

Watch out, because Judge Hodgman is a gin man.

I am a fan of the juniper juice in general, but

if we're questioning the

manhood of this instance, I would say if you order a scotch neat, they won't put a cocktail stir in it.

Yeah, there's a part of me that feels like, Judge Hodgman, I'm interested to hear what you have to say about this.

That the sad part...

Well, maybe someday I'll start my own podcast.

The The sad part of this is not so much the

drinking through the cocktail stir.

The part that did make me feel a little bit of pity was just the idea of a guy sitting at the bar putting his face into his drink to drink it.

And not that I judge the etiquette of that, but my heart genuinely goes out to someone who cannot bring himself to lift his drink to his mouth in order to drink it, but rather drinks it as would a horse.

I'll get behind that.

Unlike my esteemed colleague, Nick Offerman, I do not believe in anarchy, where you just

drink anything you want any way you want to drink it, nor do I believe Nick truly believes that, because he was raising that eyebrows fiercely at just the idea of a gin and tonic, which, you know, look,

unless you're fighting off malaria, I do consider the quinine tonic to be a waterer-downer.

of the beautiful fairy pea that is gin.

But

But I have to say that as someone with a mustache, I've used those little straws sometimes.

Now, look, you would never see one

in a martini, which is my adult beverage of choice, nor, as you say, in a good glass of scotch.

But, you know, there have been times when I've gotten like a bourbon on the rocks and someone tossed one of those little teeny tiny straws in there.

And just to save the mustache bath of whiskey that I would get, I would sometimes sip through that thing.

But then I would always think to myself, would I want someone to see me doing this?

Would I want a beautiful woman to watch me do this?

And I generally tend to come up no.

And I don't think it's a matter of masculinity or etiquette.

I think it's a matter of panache.

I agree with Jesse that the saddest thing is the dude leaning over to sip his gin and tonic.

I don't like that at all.

He also eats the peanut straight out of the bowl with his mouth.

Sure.

Oh, you mean he doesn't like wet his fingers and stick them in and see which sticks to them?

You've cut to the heart of the matter, however, Your Honor.

It's all about Panache.

If you don't want to come across as a simpering ninny, then you should lift the glass and sip from it.

If you don't care what people think of you, then by all means, slurp directly from the trough of gin.

Like a lot of things in life, it does come down to this balance of what do you like and how much do you care other people think you look dumb.

And really,

the latter should be the least of all concerns.

I think that

living with Panache, enough Panache to lift your drink up off the table

is sort of living out loud and being confident in your choices.

And that I can get behind.

But if your confident choice is you want to drink through a baby straw, and to heck with those who look askance at you, go for it.

In that sense, I agree.

But yeah, you know, lift up your drink.

Think about not how you look to others, but how you look to yourself.

And I would say also that a mixed drink, and if you're serving in a high ball glass,

those little stirs wouldn't even fit in that thing.

I'm not even sure what this woman saw.

But a mixed drink as opposed to a cocktail, a mixed drink that is served in a high ball glass.

and served over ice and usually has some carbonated component to it or a juice component to it like a screwdriver.

All of of those you can drink through straws, regular straws.

Just say, I'd like a straw with this.

You don't have to dance around it and use a little teeny tiny elf straw.

Here's something from Lee.

I'd like to bring a case against my wife, Samantha.

Sam loves to cook.

She's good at it and she takes pride in her skills.

However, we're both very busy in our day-to-day.

We often end up ordering out or making junky comfort food that's horrible for us.

I've recently brought up the option of trying out a meal plan and ingredient delivery service.

Sam's adamantly opposed to the concept of such a service.

I think it would help us with portion control.

It would also help us get back into the habit of cooking better meals for ourselves.

Sam would much rather do her own ingredient shopping and make the meals herself.

She finds the meal-ingredient delivery plans are really more meant for people who aren't already comfortable cooking for themselves.

If I win the case, I want the judge to order Sam to let me try one of the delivery services.

She can even decide which one.

If she wins, I imagine her wish would be to stop me from asking about it ever again.

Now, before I give you my opinion on this and solicit the opinion of you fine gentlemen, I want to tell a story.

In the 1990s, I'm going to guess around 1998, before any of you were born out there, old man Hodgman and old man Jonathan Colton took to our penny-farthing bicycles to exercise our leg muscles in a a loop around Central Park, the park that I lived near at that time.

We were

both working our day jobs still and desperate for some escape from cubicle jockeying and equally desperate to avoid making art the center of our lives because that scared us.

So we were constantly looking for get-rich-quick schemes.

And at one point, 1998, On a bicycle tour around the park, Jonathan Golden says to me, you know, it would be a good idea to have a company that sends you all the ingredients for a meal and you make it at home yourself.

What he anticipated in his mind, of course, and I won't buzz market the most common podcast sponsor of this kind, but there are many companies now that do exactly that.

And doing some research, I discovered this is going to be something like a $5 billion industry within the next five years.

And on that afternoon in 1998, I said to Jonathan Colton, as I said to him every day in the 1990s, that idea will never work.

And Jonathan Colton said, if you say so, John,

and that is why Jonathan Colton had to become a dirty musician to feed his family.

You're welcome.

Boy,

that's a sad tale.

I kept my friend from becoming a millionaire.

Nick Offerman,

I have my opinion on this.

Do you have an opinion that you wish to share?

Well, the first thing I would like to point out is that Lee

has

said something erroneous at the end of his request, which is,

I imagine her wish would be to stop me from asking about it ever again.

And regardless of our opinion on this matter, I would caution you against imagining what your wife might wish in any instance.

instance.

That's a very slippery slope to start down.

As far as the subject at hand...

Well, what is the danger that you foresee?

Where will this slippery slope lead to?

I just would caution him against deigning to imagine what his wife might wish

in a case.

It could lead to catastrophe.

In a case of justice,

if he is aware of what she might wish, then he would just enact that, if he's a proper husband

instead of bringing it before us today.

Oh,

you have thrown down the glove.

Well,

I know how to.

The wooden glove.

I know how to maintain a happy household.

So what's your solution for this conflict?

Well,

my suggestion is I have, my wife and I lead crazy lives that are very fun and probably

to the layman,

I would think they would look like a very adventurous, good time.

We fly all over the country and to other English-speaking parts of the world to get paid well, to perform clowning of one sort or another.

And that is a great time, but it doesn't leave a lot of boring home time in the kitchen.

So for me,

mundane domestic tasks like cooking, cleaning, cutting the grass, that's my Disneyland.

If I could just get home and bake some cookies or fire up my grill, that's become the most exotic of destinations for me.

I love to cook and I only get to do it sporadically.

And one of the ways that we are able to to eat a more healthy diet is by using services like these.

And I think they're absolutely fantastic because before

these existed, before Jonathan Colton did not

create these wonderful services, we would, you know, we'd be coming home from work and say, hey, I'm on my way home, pick up a bucket of fried chicken, and we ate a much more delicious and terrible, unhealthy diet.

And so

if you have a busy life, if you have a busy household, you can engage these services where you can either receive well-cooked, well-sourced meals, or

it becomes like a personal assistant service where they're just basically doing your grocery shopping for you, where

we're spoiled with the spectrum of availability.

You can just say, give me everything I need to make a spaghetti and meatballs dinner for my family of four.

And to my way of thinking, there's no shame at all in that.

It allows you to be a responsible adult and do whatever it is that's keeping you so busy, but then still come home and cook rather than have to just order a pizza or something.

But let me ask you this, Nick, just as a devil's advocate for a moment.

Let's say that the skill

in this case was not cooking.

Let's say that the skill that Samantha takes pride in is not cooking, but woodworking.

But she doesn't have a lot of time.

So she's buying a top half of a pre-made ukulele and a bottom half of a pre-made ukulele sent to her.

And all she's got to do is glue it together and then

go, yeah, guess what?

I made some woodworking today.

Would that be okay with you?

Is the minimal amount of engagement with the whole process still better than nothing?

Yeah, I just made Nick Offerman stammer, y'all.

I'm stammering.

Something like a Woodsy Bob Newhart over here with a stammer.

Well,

I would argue that one item is a work of art and one is

a more mundane fare.

And that's not to say that this woman's,

Sam's cooking might not be an absolute work of art, but it is more.

One is an everyday necessity.

yeah you die if you don't eat and in some ways the definition of art is the things that we do that we wouldn't die if we didn't do them yeah and the the ukulele example if she's doing it because she enjoys making things and only has time to you know she has to have some of the parts pre-made

that could be satisfying her needs as long as she's not then turning around and passing off these products and saying, here's my handmade ukuleles that I made from scratch.

Well, listen, but if she were

of the same mindset as YouTube seemed to be,

that cooking is in no way a work of art, but it is a survival technique, and I guess you guys just eat nutrient paste every day.

If she were that sort of transactional in her understanding of nutrition,

then

ordering in is the solution.

You know, there are lots of healthy options to order in.

Cooking,

I must stand up for cooking as an art form.

And even the fact that it is

nourishing, both physically and culturally and mentally, makes it one of the most beautiful art forms I think that culture has devised.

It is a way that we share experience with each other and show generosity to each other.

And if you were to sit on my podcast, ladies, my podcast still, even though there's a big TV star here, I still want mine.

Excuse me.

Coming back.

Judge Hodgman, you're a big TV guest star.

The day I worked on Parks and Recreation was one of the greatest professional and personal days of my life.

I'm just warning anyone who comes on my podcast and says that cooking is not an art form.

Chefs have knives and they're unbalanced

weirdos.

Is that why you're trying to get on their good side right now?

Well, I'm just saying someone better be careful.

Here's the thing, Judge Hodgman.

I think that we we may be underestimating the amount of artfulness that goes into preparing one of the meals from these meal things.

I received a free trial of one of these things because they sponsored one of my shows and they wanted me to have done it.

And I really, I'm a cook.

I'm a home cook.

I cook most of the food in my family.

And I enjoyed doing it.

It's not a cake mix.

It's not like you dump it into a bowl and then dump a third of a cup of oil and an egg in there and mix it together.

They've simply chosen the ingredients for you.

It is more expensive than doing your own shopping because they are delivering it to you and they have to have a profit margin.

But it is actual cooking.

I think there may be a third way here, which is it seems that both of them may have discarded the idea of making their own meal plan.

That's something that many families do.

My own family has done it

on and off for years.

Plan out what you need to make the things that you're going to eat, and then don't buy more than what you need.

I certainly agree with everything both of you have said in the spirit.

The thing that makes me

go a little bit crazy in Lee's petition, in both in Lee and Samantha's lives,

is that like

what you're talking about is cutting out the best part.

of the making the meal, which is going to the supermarket.

I love going, you guys, I love going to the supermarket so much.

I do too.

I just, I will walk around a supermarket.

I mean, one of the greatest days in my life, aside from the day I was on Parks and Recreation, was that day off I had in Toronto last fall, and I just walked around that Bob Loblaw's grocery store looking at those weird no-name yellow Canadian food labels.

That to me, oh,

I'll be chasing that dragon for the rest of my life.

It was the greatest afternoon in Canada that I think I've ever had.

I know exactly where you're coming from because I once stayed in Berkeley Berkeley down the street from the Berkeley Bowl and it was around the holidays and they had seven different types of satsumas.

Yeah.

Anyone who listens to this podcast knows I love the history of food.

I love the history of food packaging.

I love weird brands.

I love innovative

stacking techniques.

And I can't imagine why anyone would want to rule out going to the supermarket.

I'll go there right now.

But people like what they like.

And it sounds like their lives can't actually allow that to happen as often as they would like

and what i am suggesting is that if samantha is offended by the food in a box option then she's got to get her act together and cook more but in the meantime if lee wants to give those things a try it's a free country he should go just go ahead and do it and suffer the consequences

The consequences, by the way, is a lot of packaging waste, which is another thing I'm not fond of.

So maybe don't do it that often.

Or when you do do it, take all of the little baggies and little cups and oil wrappers that came with your foods and mold it into a decorative centerpiece so that you can think about that while you're eating.

Here's something from Amanda Kay.

My friend and I have a dispute about what defines a movie musical, specifically regarding the film Pitch Perfect.

She says she thinks it's a great musical.

I was shocked at this admission.

I said the film is not a musical.

Rather, it's a film that happens to have people who are involved in a cappella.

A musical.

Jesse, Jesse, hang on, wait a minute, wait a minute, Jesse.

What movie is this?

This is Pitch Perfect 1.

I've never heard of that movie.

It's sort of a prequel to Pitch Perfect 2, starring John Hawkins.

Pitch Perfect 2.

Yeah.

That's a movie.

I didn't know.

So there were...

Oh, there's another one.

Oh, okay, interesting.

Yeah.

A musical,

says Amanda Kaye, is a film in which people sing spontaneously.

The music is performed performed to explore feelings or in place of conversation.

It's an equivalent to dialogue in a non-musical film.

Moreover, the music often drives the plot.

In Pitch Perfect, music works purely as an entertainment device and not necessarily as a plot device.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Please help us decide.

Nick Offerman, have you any thoughts to offer, man?

Well.

Do you have any musical theater background, Nick?

The last singing singing role I essayed was that of Judd Fry in Oklahoma

at Manuka High School in 1988.

And

the reviews were mixed.

I forgot.

What song does he sing?

Poor Judd is Dade

is a duet with Curly.

How does that one go again?

Poor Judd is dead.

A candle lights his head.

He's laying in a coffin made of wood.

And we handin' how to go.

Of course you remember it.

It's a woodworking song.

Yes.

He also has a song that's...

That's good sport, by the way, Nick.

Thank you very much.

No, my pleasure.

Do you need me to sing anything for Mother Courage and Her Children?

Because I got you if you need anything.

Weren't you going to do Music Man?

Yeah.

Wasn't that your thing?

Well, now Nick wants to do Music Man.

I found out as we were walking into the studio, that's one of Nick's professional goals.

My new idea is, you know, Nick's a star.

This is a guy that gets stuff lit.

At the very least, he can get stuff green lit at the La Jolla Playhouse.

So my idea is we pitch Nick as Professor Harold Hill, but sort of like how Lin Manuel Miranda used to take Sunday afternoons off and put his regular understudy who's now the star of Hamilton into the role of Alexander Hamilton in Hamilton.

I could be the Sunday Harold Hill, which is plenty of Harold Hill for me.

I don't need to be an eight show a week Harold Hill.

Once it's fine, you know, if we're doing it for six weeks, I can do six shows, you know, and get my family to come down and see it, that kind of thing.

I'll be your substantial surrogate.

Yeah.

The thing about that plan is...

Nick's just going to be your overstudy.

And I'll bask in Nick's star power.

I like that.

I'm your overstudy.

Sorry, Nick.

Go ahead.

I don't doubt that both Jesse and I have the showmanship required to pull off Harold Hill.

Uh-oh, sounds like we've got trouble.

But

the audience generally enjoys,

and I'm not super familiar with your singing voice, but in my own case, they prefer someone with a better singing talent than I possess.

I mean, there's a lot of patterns,

there is, but, you know, if we went and auditioned at a general call,

they would hand us shapoopy and say,

take a minute in the hallway with this.

Yeah, that girl's hard to get.

I hate to break into this mutual self-deprecation society, but we can agree on one thing for sure, which is that the music man is a musical, and Oklahoma is a musical.

We know these things to be true in the same way we know a ham on rye is a sandwich.

But here we are faced with a hot dog called Pitch Perfect 2.

This court refuses to acknowledge the movie Pitch Perfect.

Fair enough.

Is this hot dog, which does have some significant differences from a traditional musical?

As Amanda points out, people are not spontaneously breaking into song to express their feelings in ways that the other characters cannot hear.

Every time those guys sing, they know they are singing.

They are performing singing within the concept of the plot.

That is called diegesis.

They are aware of what they are doing.

They are aware that they are performing.

Whereas Oklahoma and Music Man and other traditional musicals, there is a break in reality

where a character will start singing about their feelings, maybe to express a deeper feeling.

And even if they're singing together on stage,

in the reality of the world that they are conjuring, they're not singing at all.

It is an expression of their unconscious.

Unless you have a diegetic musical number within a non-diegetic musical, such as when

the von Trapp family performs Edelweiss

in The Sound of Music, which is a musical, but in that case, they know they're singing because they're on stage doing it on purpose.

All right.

So, does Pitch Perfect

2 count as a musical?

Jesse Thorne?

My inclination, and I took an entire college course called American Musical Theater with Professor Tom Lair at UC Santa Cruz.

Oh, right.

He never called us back.

He didn't.

He didn't.

That's okay.

I understand.

America's Twitter users, please stop asking me if he called us back.

It's okay that he didn't call us back.

He's an old grumpy man.

Yeah, in fact, as I was just thinking, I think it was actually kind of mean of us to do that to him.

Yeah, he had that weird message.

He was an old grumpy man when he was my professor, and that was 13 years ago.

So there you go.

But Professor Larry and his colleagues in that class taught me a lot about musical theater.

I would say

that for me, I don't think there's a hard line.

For me, I would say that the question of diegesis versus extra-diegetic is less

central than the question of whether the music drives the narrative and the emotional arc of the film.

So for me, I would be inclined to say that, for example, Once or Sing Street,

movie musicals in which all of the music performed is performed either in the form of a music video or a live performance within the context of the narrative, are musicals because those songs are consistently driving the emotional arc of the film.

I would say that Pitch Perfect,

I've only seen Pitch Perfect 2, frankly, which is really funny, by the way.

And

I would say, eh, you were okay.

Thank you.

You were wonderful, Judge Hodgman.

Thank you.

I would say that that really is on the line.

And I would be inclined to say I would probably not describe it as a musical for that reason.

But I wouldn't look askance on someone who did describe it as a musical.

Let me say this, though.

If I may, you seem to be overlooking when you talk about musical numbers driving the plot, I mean the centrality to the dramatic structure of Pitch Perfect 2 of the particular sequence known as the Riff Off.

Where the question on everyone's minds is, will John Hodgman and the Tonehangers be in this movie more?

Will they defeat these miscellaneous Green Bay Packers who are appearing in this film with equal billing?

And of course, that's the great tragedy.

I mean, this is one of the great musical tragedies: is

we do not win the riff-off and we are not seen again.

And that's, I think, where the movie ends.

It's certainly where I stopped watching.

Nick, what's your take, if you have one?

Well, I agree

wholeheartedly.

I feel like

the pitch-perfect oeuvre

falls much more into line with movies like Ray

or

even a dance movie like Breaking or

what's the one?

Step Up to the Streets.

Beat Street.

Yeah, and King of the Beat, Rocking That Beat from Across the Street.

I mean, the

subject matter of the musical performances is more incidental to the narrative.

And so

I would agree that Pitch Perfect is a movie with music more than a movie musical.

Pitch Perfect too, excuse me.

Yeah, I honestly couldn't hear what you were saying there for a second.

It's like when in the TV show Westworld, when they show a robot a picture of the modern world and they just say, that looks like nothing to me.

That's how I feel about Pitch Perfect.

I agree with both of you.

It's a subtle difference, but subtle differences can add texture to life.

That a hot dog is similar to a sandwich in many, many demonstrable ways

does not mean it has to be a sandwich.

It is enough that it is a hot dog, distinct due to some very specific and one to me determinative difference from a sandwich, which was only a mentally disturbed person would cut it in half, unless it was for a child.

That is un-sandwichedness to me.

And that's good because as I say, yeah, you can make an argument that a hot dog is a sandwich, but once a hot dog is a sandwich, then all is sandwich.

And so these, you know, then a taco is a sandwich, then a burrito is a sandwich.

This is what Merriam-Webster says.

All of a sudden, you're living in an anarchistic, Nick Offerman-esque world where there are no rules.

Yeah, where people are sucking their tonic through a straw while lying down on the ground.

No panache.

Anyway, I think it's a subtle difference, but an important one because the musical,

as we've described it, with the extra-diegetic singing and the using the songs to provide insight and motion in the plot, is an unusual and unique and weird art form that is not doing so well.

I mean, it's doing great in a lot of ways, I mean, creatively.

But of course, it exists for a moment on stages in a very few parts of the country and very rarely makes it to the movies.

And so I think that as an art form, it's worthwhile giving it its due and calling that musical, because that's traditionally what musical is.

And we'll call it Pitch Perfect 2.

Like in the same way opera has operetta.

We'll call that a musical

lella.

Musical lella, what that's called from now on.

Let's take a quick break.

We'll have more with Nick Offerman, plus some listener letters about recent episodes when we come back in just a second.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at maximumfund.org, and they are all your favorites.

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The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Quince.

Jesse, the reviews are in.

My new super soft hoodie from Quince that I got at the beginning of the summer is indeed super soft.

People cannot stop touching me and going, that is a soft sweatshirt.

And I agree with them.

And it goes so well with my Quince overshirts that I'm wearing right now, my beautiful cotton Piquet overshirts.

and all the other stuff that I've gotten from Quince.

Why drop a fortune on basics when you don't have to?

Quince has the good stuff.

High quality fabrics, classic fits, lightweight layers for warm weather, and increasingly chilly leather, all at prices that make sense.

Everything I've ordered from Quince has been nothing but solid, and I will go back there again and buy that stuff with my own money.

John, you know what I got from Quince?

I got this beautiful linen double flap pocket shirt.

It's sort of like an adventure shirt.

And I also got a merino wool polo shirt.

Oh, it's like a

mid-gray, looks good underneath anything, perfect for traveling because with merino wool, it like, it basically rejects your stink.

You know what I mean?

It's a stink-rejecting technology, John.

It says, get thee behind me, stink.

Yeah, exactly.

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The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask you a question.

Did you know that most of the dishes served at Tom Clicchio's craft restaurant are made in, made in pots and pans?

It's true.

The Brace Short Ribs, Made In, Made In.

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And I know that she can, you know, she can heat that thing up hot if she wants to use it hot.

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And it will last a long time.

And whether it's griddles or pots and pans or knives, or glassware, or tableware.

I mean, you know, Jesse, I'm sad to be leaving Maine soon, but I am very, very happy to be getting back to my beloved Made-In Entree bowls.

All of it is incredibly solid, beautiful, functional, and as you point out, a lot more affordable because they sell it directly to you.

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Let them know Jesse and John sent you.

You know, we've been doing my brother, my brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no.

No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Long.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

We're clearing the docket with us Deputy Judge Nick Offerman.

Nick Offerman, of course,

the author of the brand new best-selling book, Good, Clean, Fun.

Is this like a book of actual woodworking information?

It is a legit woodworking recipe book.

You can learn woodworking from this book.

It's a textbook as though it was written by the valedictorian and the class clown.

What would be my first woodworking project?

The coaster.

Oh.

Which is a great place to start.

All you're doing is choosing a beautiful piece of wood.

and preparing it surface by sanding and oiling it.

And then it's really fun to use, with or without a straw.

But if I spill my gin and tonic on the floor so I can lap it up with my disgusting tongue, do I need a coaster for that?

You can go either way.

It depends on your Panache level.

I have a copy of this book.

It's fantastic, and everyone should go out and buy it.

And you also have a movie in theaters now?

It's coming up soon.

It's called The Founder with Michael Keaton.

He plays Ray Kroc, the founder of the McDonald's Corporation.

And John Carroll Lynch and I play Mac and Dick McDonald, who actually created McDonald's and then suffered through a relationship with Ray Kroc.

Oh, wow.

You know, Ray Kroc's late wife, his final wife of several,

endowed National Public Radio with much of the money that allows me to be a professional public radio host.

Yeah, she really

went a long way towards trying to ease many of the ills that McDonald's has exacted upon

our global wastelines.

Judge Hodren, we actually also have a couple of live shows coming up.

We're going to be at important ones.

Yeah, we got San Francisco Sketch Fest coming up.

That's a highlight every year.

That's going home.

That's going home for us.

January 13th.

Yeah.

Friday the 13th.

Yeah, at the Curran Theater in San Francisco, bit.ly slash judgment by the bay.

Or you can find it at maximumfund.org.

I'm actually going to do a Jordan Jesse Go that same weekend at San Francisco Sketch Fest.

So it's a great time to either be in town or to already live there

if my mother's listening right now.

We're also headed to Chicago.

That's Nick Offerman Country.

That's right.

It's just northeast of Manuka, Illinois.

That's how it's usually identified in tourist pamphlets.

We're going to be at Very, Very Fun Day, February 11th at Talia Hall, which is uh it's going to be a grand maximum fun podcast extravaganza 12 hours of podcasts on multiple tracks uh judge john hodgman uh our enemy podcast the flop house uh jordan jesse go

tights and fights uh stop podcasting yourself uh some great local shows a stand-up show uh it's going to be really fantastic vip tickets for that already sold out but there's general admission tickets uh you can find the link at maximumfun.org um slash very very fun day.

Do you want to hear my nicknames for all of the rival podcasts we'll be performing with there?

Yes, I would love that.

Flophouse?

Yeah.

The Flopsies.

Got it.

Stop podcasting yourself?

Stopsies.

Got it.

Jordan Jesse Go?

Go Boys.

Uh-huh.

Tights and Fights?

Fights and Tights.

Wait, are these their nicknames or their occupational?

Those are my nicknames for them.

So yes, please go to maximumfund.org slash very very fun day.

And tickets to uh that event to the sketchfest event and indeed a whole bunch of other new public appearances that i just put up on my website are all on johnhodgman.com slash tour this includes the ones we just talked about as well as my appearance on at midnight you get free tickets that's on january 16th i'm doing some touring with the boston pops if you live in florida i would love to see you meeting our friend john darneal in new york city on february 7th um and much much more so please just go to johnhodgman.com slash tour and follow those links and um and come and visit Here's something from Amanda F.

When I mail letters and bills, I put them in the mailbox and raise the red flag.

My husband Tristan insists that while this is legally permissible, it's rude and burdensome to our mail carrier.

He's fairly serious about this.

Tristan used to be a mailboy at a college campus, and I think this informs his feelings on the matter.

I say, it's not rude to send mail from a personal box.

It's part of the mail carrier's job.

They're not offended or burdened if I send mail this way.

I ask that you serve an injunction to Tristan to stop shaming me for using our mailbox.

And I request a trip to Holiday World next year as emotional damages.

I don't know what Holiday World is, though.

Do either of you know?

That's not the thing from National Lampoon Vacation, is it?

No.

Wait, is Holiday World the...

Is that the blimp hanger turned tropical paradise in Germany?

No, it's not that.

Is it a Christmas-themed amusement park?

Do you think?

I don't know.

A fall holidays-themed amusement park?

Yeah, I honestly couldn't tell you.

I believe that that's possible.

It might be in that giant mall in Calgary.

Holiday.

Oh, here we are.

Holiday World and Splashing Safari.

Its address is 452 East Christmas Boulevard, Santa Claus, Indiana.

I think that answers the question.

Well, Nick,

were you ever a letter carrier in your life?

Do you have any thoughts or advice for this lazy person?

I have a very strong opinion about this.

I'd like to hear it.

And I may be completely in the wrong, but I would think that if I were a member of the Postal Service

who has a creed that I am very fond of, I first learned of it from hearing Laurie Anderson recite it on,

I believe, her record, Big Science, and I would like like to recite it for you now.

The postal carrier's creed in our country is as follows: Neither snow, nor rain, nor heat, nor gloom of night shall stay these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed rounds.

That always filled me with an incredible sense of pride in what it must be like to carry the pieces of post from one place to another anywhere in our country.

So in my opinion, if I was a mail carrier and I looked down a street and saw a bunch of red flags, I'd say, goddamn right, this is a job for a USPS postal carrier.

Well, yeah, I'm not suggesting that the postal carrier will shrug from his or her duty and beautiful Credo.

And I hope they're always listening to that Laurie Anderson song, Oh, Superman, on their walkmans as they as they deliver their letters.

That's what I always imagine.

But what if it's particularly rainy, snowy, heat, gloomy, and you're tired and you turn on that street and you see all those flags up?

I could imagine that that could be a little dispiriting.

So here's what I have to say.

It is within your legal right, Amanda, to raise that flag, for sure.

But when you do it next, please remember one of the important credos of the Judge John Hodgman podcast, which is, be mindful of the work you leave for others.

If you can get that thing and take it to your post office, do it.

Engage with one of the most important

civic monuments that we have in this country, a functioning subsidized postal service.

It's like those letter carriers are carrying not just circulars and fruit and steak catalogs, although I'll take them any day, but

traditionally and historically, the lives and hopes and dreams of all of your fellow Americans and important commerce to boot.

So I would say, Nick is quite right.

I would applaud any mail carrier

for the work that they do, and I appreciate they would never shrug their duty.

But at the same time, on an individual level, You don't have to put that flag of like, I don't feel like going out today up all the time.

I disagree violently, Judge Hodgman.

I'm 100% with Offerman.

I think, number one, they're coming to the mailbox anyway.

They got to drop off my Jay Peterman catalog.

Uh-huh.

And number two, it is a part of their sacred duty.

It is an exchange.

They take the outgoing mail and leave it.

There is something beautiful about that.

That's something really wonderful about that.

And, you know, you can no longer send a package in that manner, or at least a package over a certain number of ounces in weight since the Unibomber.

And so it really will be a letter.

It will not be a physical difficulty for that person.

And it's a beautiful part of what the postal carrier does on a daily basis, brings the mail hither and yon.

I appreciate that, but there's another Credo that I'm not even sure that I've introduced this Credo to the podcast yet, but it's another one that I've been working in my Credo lab,

which is about helping.

There are two principles of help that I try to instill in my feral children who live in my house.

Offer help before it is asked for,

and then provide help

in the way you have been asked to help.

And the latter thing is really the thing.

Like if someone's asking you for help and they want you to do X, Y, and Z, don't say, I'm actually going to do A, B, and C.

That'll help.

Help in the way you're asked to help.

And in this case, we have Tristan, a former mailboy, which is a weird term that I'd never heard before,

who explained to her, boy, I wish some of those flags had not gone up that day.

It would have helped me that day to not have to do that.

And so all I'm saying is, and I'm a guy who occasionally will, I don't have a flag, but we have a slot in our apartment building where outgoing mail goes.

If that's what you got to do that day because you're not going out, it's definitely part of the service, for sure.

But each time you do it, think to yourself, could I possibly relieve someone's burden today by taking this a few extra steps myself?

That's all I'm saying.

So I agree.

It's legal.

It's fine.

It's good.

Be mindful of the work you leave for others.

And I order, in the spirit of this rather wishy-washy judgment, I order Amanda and Tristan to go to Holiday World as combined

reward and punishment.

Because I think it's probably both.

Judge Hodgman, Hodgman, do you have anything in the mailbag there?

Yeah, Jesse, I received a number of letters regarding verdict number 286 grass action lawsuit in which we ruled on a dispute between Daniel and Bernadette about landscaping.

He wanted a traditional 50 suburban style bright green flat lawn and claimed that turf grass is actually better for the environment in Iowa where they live because it provides better runoff.

And as I say, I got a number of letters.

Here's one from Vanessa.

Vanessa writes, I was inspired to write because of your recent case regarding lawns.

I'm in my final year in the Natural Resource Science and Management PhD program at the University of Minnesota.

So she knows what she's talking about.

The husband's claim that turf grass is better for the environment than native plants is just wrong.

Basically, in all the ways someone might measure benefit.

Native plants are far more beneficial for water.

and other resources than lawn grass.

Native plants develop deeper root systems that improve soil health and reduce watering needs.

They require far fewer, if any, chemical treatments.

They help keep pollution out of water bodies.

Finally, they provide habitat for important critters we like to have around like bees.

You know I love bees.

So I have to say thank you, Vanessa, for writing this information.

And even though I think I ordered Daniel to have a lawn in front of his house, please acknowledge, sir, you're a monster who hates bees.

And your environmental claim was wrong.

And also, Laura, an environmental engineer, wrote the same thing.

So they have it in for you.

I really like this letter that we got

that was about, you know, you were talking about how you don't like apples.

I don't know how you feel about apples, Nick.

I'd go for an apple.

Yeah, I'm fine with an apple.

Sure.

It depends on the apple, but my mom's got a nice apple tree that puts out some nice apples in her backyard.

Nicole wrote something interesting.

She wrote, the Macintosh is my least favorite apple.

However, By adding salt to it, it becomes a delicious, savory treat.

Try it.

You might like it.

All right, I'm going to do that right now.

I have a Macintosh apple that I got from the supermarket.

Gave me an excuse to go to that supermarket today.

I was otherwise not going to go.

I'm cutting it open with my Ken Onion knife.

Cut a little slice of it out.

I got some, I'm going to go ahead and buzz market it because it's the king of salts.

Mal Don sea salt flakes, the best salt.

I'm going to open that if I can.

Gonna use my knife.

This is my public, public television show.

Your Foley guy is great.

Can we hear some high heels walking through gravel?

All right.

I'm going to hulk running, please.

All right.

I'm going to take a bite.

Everyone, Google Hulk Running if you don't know what I'm talking about.

It's the greatest scene in comedy.

All right, I'm going to take a bite of this Mac and Dosh apple without salt.

Super tart.

That's the control.

Yeah, that's the control.

And Judge Hodgman, I would caution you to take care when eating near the microphone

because we could be drowned in a sea of angry emails.

Well, I figured I just triggered someone's ASMR for sure.

All right.

I'm just going to munch this moist apple with my teeth.

Holy moly.

Salty apple's pretty good.

I like that a lot.

Especially this is that good salt, that Maldon salt that I like, which I would not use in cooking, but for finishing foods.

Because cooking is an art form, darn it.

Because it's very crunchy and it adds a textural addition to the apple as well.

I like it a lot.

But you know what I like better?

Just eating this salt by itself.

Email me about that, nerds.

Roll credits.

Nick Gofferman, what a joy it's been to have you on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm sure everyone right now is literally at their bookstore, having made a detour some 15 minutes ago during our mid-break,

picking up a copy of your brand new best-selling book, Good, Clean, Fun.

I'm sure Volvos all over the country are currently driving through the plate glass windows of Brentano's booksellers everywhere to get that book as quickly as possible.

Norm Abram himself is banging on the doors of a shuttered borders,

hoping that they will go back into business so that he can buy himself a copy of Nick Offerman's new book, Good Clean Fun.

It's been a pleasure to see you, as always, friend.

Thank you.

It's been a great privilege.

And of course, our producer on Judge John Hodgman is Jennifer Marmer.

We want your cases on Judge John Hodgman.

Submit a case at maximumfund.org slash jjho.

That's maximumfund.org slash jjho.

You can also email us at hodgman at maximumfun.org.

And we're specifically looking for cases for San Francisco.

If you've got a San Francisco case, come on, your A-B testing in your software package is revealing something, something, something.

Someone called it Frisco.

Someone gave you a Los Angeles burrito.

Nick, I fear that my bill has gone into a fugue state.

Judge Hodgman, you know that I'm easily triggered to go into saying things about San Francisco Fugue State.

Listen, you rice-eronies, if you've got a dispute with someone you know in the Bay Area and you'd like to have it heard on stage live on Friday the 13th at SF Sketch Fest, go to those same forums, maximumfund.org slash jjho or hodgman at maximumfund.org.

Give me your dispute.

Say that you're in San Francisco.

Say you want me to consider it for the live show.

And if we pick your case, guess what?

You get a free ticket.

That's a pretty good deal.

And if you don't, if if you already have tickets, I'm going to give you a hug backstage before you go on stage.

Honestly, Judge Hodgman, you get two free tickets.

You get a free ticket to the Judge John Hodgman Show, and you get a free ticket to Podcast Immortality.

That's right.

And we're going to do the same thing for Chicago as well.

And you can send your Chicago cases in as well.

Nick, pick a fight with someone in Chicago so that we can fly you out there to be on the show.

All right, then.

Let's get me and Craig Robinson debating White Sox versus Cubs.

Oh, yeah, there we go.

We're going to burn that theater down.

Follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne at Nick Offerman, right, Nick?

That's right.

At Hodgman for Hodgman.

Hashtag at JJ Ho on Twitter.

Like us on Facebook and join us to discuss the case on the Maximum Fund Reddit at maximumfund.reddit.com.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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