Conifer Emptor

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Conifer Emptor.

Michael brings the case against his husband, Matthew.

For the last several years, the two of them have used an artificial Christmas tree during the holiday season.

Matthew prefers live trees, and he'd like to introduce one to their home, but Michael is strongly against the idea.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

We aren't dealing with ordinary artificial trees here.

These are highly complicated pieces of equipment, almost as complicated as living organisms.

In some cases, they've been designed by other trees.

We don't know exactly how they work.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he displays only a court-mandated sadness tree?

We do.

I do.

Very well, Judge Hodgman.

You may be seated.

Michael and Matthew, for an immediate summary judgment in one of your

favors,

can you name the piece of cultural detritus that I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

Matthew, you have been brought to my court against your will by your husband, Michael.

So Matthew, you can choose first whether to guess or to make Michael guess first.

What is your decision?

Michael can guess first.

Sorry.

Michael can guess first.

Classic Coward's Way Out.

Just making a little note next to your name here, Matthew, Coward.

All right.

Michael.

By the way, Matthew, I love you.

All right.

Now, moving on.

Michael, what is your guess?

I believe that's from the Grinch who stole Christmas.

From the Grinch who stole Christmas.

I'm writing that down.

I'm very excited to hear, you guys, because I'm in the studio today for various reasons, back with Paul Ruest at Argo Studios on 26th Street in Manhattan, and they provided me with a pad of paper and a pen, which it never occurred to me to ever have once in my life while doing a podcast.

And I'm making full use of it by writing down Grinch who stole,

and I'll use a shorthand for Christmas Xmas, something I made up.

We'll put that into the guess book.

Now, Matthew, you cannot ignore your your requirement any longer.

You must also guess.

All right.

I think it's from Charlie Brown Christmas when they're talking about those outrageous artificial shiny trees.

Charlie Brown Christmas.

And let's see here, using pad and paper, I can tally it up and carry the nine.

And all guesses are wrong.

Both incorrect.

In fact, I was quoting, I was really hoping that one of you guys was going to go, I think, John, I think that's from West westworld and then i was going to go wrong it's from westworld the original westworld 1973

and then if you got that one i was going to say oh well who said it and then one of you smarty pants would have said uh the chief supervisor and i'm like who played the chief supervisor and then you would have been stumped or else you would be crazy and said oh alan oppenheimer and i'll be like oh yeah the voice of skeletor all those things are true but we didn't go down that path because neither of you got it and so we have to hear this case now i'm puzzled michael and Matthew, as to why this case is being brought to my court because this issue of

real versus artificial Christmas tree goes back all the way back to verdict number eight,

as you well know, because you included it in your evidence.

In verdict number eight, to tree or not to tree, the famous

Will the Sims family have a sadness tree or not, answer equals yes.

We also heard a docket item in that case, in which I ruled very specifically that if you are celebrating Christmas with an artificial tree, you're not celebrating Christmas at all because part of Christmas is having an evergreen brought into the home to symbolize life during the longest night of the year, that is the winter solstice, and watching it slowly die over the course of several days.

But obviously,

one of you does not agree.

And because your names both begin with M, now I'm confused.

So which one of you?

Which one of you likes the artificial tree that you got?

I, Michael, like the artificial tree.

I, Michael, like the artificial tree.

So tell us about...

So the issue here is that Matthew wants a live tree.

But Michael, you want to retain the artificial tree that was given to you by your grandma.

Is that right?

That's correct.

All right.

Tell me about the artificial tree that was given to you by your grandma.

Well, so I don't think the issue here so much hinges on the sort of nature of the tree itself in terms of...

It certainly does not hinge on the nature of the tree because the tree is not natural at all.

And when this court asks you to describe the artificial tree given to you by your grandma, don't change the subject.

Okay, it's a good door.

I apologize, Your Honor.

It is a green tree.

It is in good condition.

It is.

You had to specify green because I grew up going to a grandma's house in Philadelphia that had an artificial tree that was silver.

A lot of artificial trees, they can be any color.

So, your tree is green.

It is actually making an effort to trick you into thinking that it's a real tree.

It's green.

That's correct.

Okay.

And your grandma gave it to you in, I believe, 2009.

I made a note here on my pad.

And did you grow up with artificial trees?

We did.

In fact, my family has always had an artificial tree ever since one of their live ones caught on fire.

Oh.

So was this during your lifetime?

No, it was just before I was born.

Oh, so so you have family trauma associated with live trees.

Indeed.

What happened?

They were having a party, and they aren't sure exactly what happened, but either there was some sort of electrical issue, or it was too close to the heat, and in the middle of the party, the tree caught ablaze, and they were able to, fortunately, put out the fire before anyone was hurt.

But I think there was some damage to the apartment, and obviously the tree could no longer be used for the remainder of the season.

What year was this?

I believe it was around 1980, 1980, 1981 or so.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

That was when

it was all a rage to have drunken flamethrower parties.

That's what happened.

Could be.

Yeah.

Where did you grow up and where did this fire occur?

In New Jersey.

New Jersey.

All right.

And so since then, you've always had an artificial tree.

And if I am to believe your deposition and your evidence,

one of the reasons you do not want to make your husband happy and get a live tree is that you are afraid that

the past is prologue and your tree is going to catch on fire again.

Right.

That's especially true this year because we are traveling for the holidays, and so we won't be around to care properly for the tree, keeping it watered and such.

And so I fear that it will become a fire hazard, as was the case before, and that also it will be a danger to our cats who will be at home unguarded around this tree.

And finally, to get to your...

So you're afraid that the cats are going going to let the Christmas fire elves in?

I'm afraid that the cats will eat the tree and/or knock down the water reservoir that's supposed to be keeping the tree nice and moist so it doesn't become a desiccated and barren harbinger of death.

Will they eat the entire tree?

No, probably just enough.

How big are the cats?

They're tiny, you know.

Are they sabert-toothed tigers?

They want to be.

Vegetarian saber-toothed tigers?

They love pine resin.

I just had this image of what are your cats' names?

Daphne and Alex.

Daphne and Alex, and what kind of cats are they?

Just regular old cats.

Are they those cats that He-Man rides on?

He-Man and she-Battle Cat?

That Battle Cat was great.

He had his own armor.

Yeah.

And he ate pine trees.

A lot of people don't know that.

Deep cut.

I just have the image of Daphne, of you guys coming back from

over the river and through the woods or wherever you're going just to find a stump of a tree and Alex and Daphne just licking their chops.

I think they're just sitting there quietly, and then one of them burps and the very top of the tree comes out.

The star.

Oh, I'm very fond of Daphne and Alex.

Am I remembering that correctly?

Yes, you are.

Yeah.

They're nice cats.

How old are they?

Do they get into trouble?

They're about a year and a half old now, and yes, they get into lots of trouble.

They don't get into that much trouble.

They are, in fact, the best cats in the world.

All right, Matthew, I guess you've decided it's time that we hear from you, and I agree with you.

First of all,

hello.

Hello.

You grew up somewhere else with a lot,

and your tradition, your family tradition was a live Christmas tree.

Yes.

So I also grew up in New Jersey,

perhaps 35 minutes from where Michael grew up.

Our parents.

Have you guys been married since you were children?

No.

No.

Was this one of those New Jersey arranged marriages?

No, not quite.

We met up here in Boston.

Oh, okay.

Excellent.

So you grew up in New Jersey, 35 minutes from your future husband.

Yes.

And as a family, we would always go pick out our tree,

usually after Thanksgiving, but sometimes depending on where all of our family members were, we would get together and go pick out a tree.

And then we would always decorate it together whenever we could find the time to be together to a particular Home Alone soundtrack.

And this is just kind of an intrinsic part of what Christmas celebration is to me.

When you say a particular Home Alone soundtrack, I mean you mean a Home Alone 2 Lost in New York?

No, I don't think it was that one.

It was just Home.

It was the Home Alone soundtrack.

The Home Alone soundtrack.

The soundtrack of the movie Home Alone.

Thank you, Paleof Jesse.

He was being a little coy there about which Home Alone.

Well, I mean, he doesn't want to be seen as one of those hipsters who only decorates the tree to the Home Alone 2 Lost in New York soundtrack.

He wants to be clear that it's the original Home Alone soundtrack.

Yeah.

Those dudes are pretty cool, though.

The Home Alone Toonies.

Oh, yeah.

They are pretty cool.

Too cool for me.

Yeah.

Out there in Red Hook.

So this was Christmas to you, going and getting a tree.

Did you go to a tree farm and cut it down, or did you get it from off the back of a truck that had driven down from Quebec?

It was off, not off the back of the truck.

I think someone else had unloaded it and kind of spruced it up, as it were.

Oh,

oh,

evergreen wordplay.

I like it.

I like it.

Mark it down.

In 2016, hang on, I got to write this on my pad.

2016, IJH liked a pun.

Spruce it up.

Maybe Paul Ruest at the Argo Studios should think about putting in a plaque.

Here is the recording studio where John Hodgman openly enjoyed a pun.

Okay, so Christmas to you was getting that live tree and putting it in.

Yeah, and so much that

from, I think maybe when I was about three or so, my parents actually, for me in particular, I have two other siblings, actually got a smaller tree because I wanted to be near it so, so badly and put it in my room.

So I have, for I think, all of my life had a smaller tree in my parents' house as well, in my bedroom there,

because love real trees and it just makes it the Christmas time for me.

So let me understand.

You had the family tree in the living room or whatever.

And then you would have another small tree in your room just for you?

A private Christmas tree?

Yes, a private Christmas tree.

It never spontaneously combusted and killed you with fire?

None of our trees have spontaneously combusted and none of our cats have eaten entire trees or burped them out.

Did you grow up with cats?

We always had two two cats, yes.

And they didn't eat the tree or get poisoned by it.

No.

They never knocked it over.

The water reservoir was never spilled upon the ground.

And how long has it been since you've had a real tree?

I mean, how long have you guys been married?

We have been married for about a year and a half now.

We've been together for nine years.

Thank you.

And we have celebrated Christmas in our home in Boston with fake tree, with a fake tree, the prior referenced one, for the past eight years.

That's not entirely true.

So this is not the first time that we've had this dispute.

And in other past years, the dispute has gotten to the point that we simply haven't put up a tree at all.

So while we have celebrated Christmas together for the last eight years, the tree has actually only been used about four or five times.

So you're saying that there are times, Michael, when Matthew just boycotts fake tree altogether and refuses.

That's correct.

I feel like going out to a nursery owned by a local business person and enjoying the winter time and picking out a nice smelling tree is a little bit different than the annual schlep from the basement with a box and then putting it together.

It just doesn't get me in the mood for Christmas merriment.

And I think Michael will refer to this, but we often travel for Christmas since both of our families live near each other in New Jersey.

So oftentimes it's not practical for us to put up all of our Christmas decorations when we are going to be leaving soon thereafter, especially now that we have cats.

So, normally, if you deign

to put up the fake tree, who goes down there and pulls it out of the darkness?

I believe I did it last year.

I've certainly done it in the past as well, and also we've put it back both as well.

So, it's not a particular center.

Have you guys ever thought about getting one of those like 1960 silver aluminum trees?

Because those are pretty dope, and they have the color wheel that like spins and throws light up on them.

God, I want one of those.

My grandmother actually had one.

Yeah, that's what my nan-nan had.

Yeah.

It was very, very charming, I thought.

Yeah.

Way to go, nan-nan.

Bailiff, Jesse, do you normally have a tree in your home around X-Mas time?

I certainly do, and it's always a real tree.

Although this year I'm spending Christmas at my cabin in the mountains, and we'll be buying a tree on the way up.

We will not be cutting down a tree in the mountains, but rather in a tree farm that's at the base of the mountain.

And so there is currently no Christmas tree in my home, and I feel terrible about it.

And my wife said that because of this unusual circumstance, I could finally live my dream of having one of those silver aluminum Christmas trees from 1960 with the light wheel at the bottom and so on and so forth.

But when I looked them up online, they cost like $250 or $300.

And I was like, yeah, I'm not doing that.

So then I went to the tree place.

And don't tell my wife this.

Luckily, she listens to this show.

But I went to the tree place and I'm like, I'm going to get one of those little tiny trees

just to put in the house because my wife loves Christmas and my kids are excited about Christmas.

Yeah.

Like what I call a Matthew tree.

One of those tiny, like two-foot-tall trees at the place by my house costs $46.

$46.

And I'm like, okay, well, see you later.

Whereas aluminum, a fancy mid-century modern aluminum tree, $250.

Yeah, and you know, my wife's going to have a baby, so by this time next year, that will not be a fancy mid-century modern aluminum tree.

It will be a fancy mid-century modern abattoir.

So.

How so?

Because the baby will stab itself on the blade like needles?

Yeah, I mean, basically.

Well, nonetheless, I'm making a note here on my pad.

As

an Xmas surprise, I, Jesse, an aluminum tree.

But keep it a secret.

Yo.

Oh, Jesse, I just had the greatest idea for the holidays for you.

You will be so surprised.

But back to Matthew and Michael.

Matthew.

Yes.

What happens when you say to Michael, Look,

this phony Ponywani tree just isn't doing it for me.

Please, may we get a real tree this year?

Please.

What does he say?

He says, no, absolutely not.

And then he goes to the bottom of the body.

How does that mean?

It makes me feel so very sad.

It makes me not feel, you know, Christmassy at all.

It makes me just, you know,

I don't know, want to go into bed and sleep.

So much so that he has rejected all of my compromises, which have in fact also involved getting a live tree.

Oh, well, I'd like to hear the compromises.

So my first proposal.

We have an original compromise, which I propose to.

No, excuse me.

Excuse me.

Order.

Matthew, I will get back to you.

All right.

Right now, I want to hear what Michael, Michael's list of compromises,

and then I want to hear how I want to hear your take on it and why there are some Christmases in the spirit of Christmas you would rather not have a tree at all than look at that fake thing again.

Michael, you go ahead now.

So since there's precedent for Matthew having a small tree of his own, I suggested that we could avoid many of the hazards that we have with both the fire and the cats if we got a small potted tree that we could put out of reach of the cats and keep well watered in the soil.

And then Matthew could still have his live tree.

And I think that's a reasonable compromise, but he was having none of it.

And so then there were other

options as well.

But frankly, I think that's the best one.

And I still don't understand why he rejected it.

Matthew, why did you reject your little bedside Matthew tree that you used to have in childhood?

Well, because I think that when we have children, I can give my child a bedside tree, but we are a family and we should go pick a normal-sized Christmas tree and celebrate together as a family.

You're a grown-up, you want a grown-up-sized tree right now?

I do.

Well, yes, that's true.

The potted tree is also, where we live, it's slightly cold and we can't actually plant them in any sort of realistic um

period so it would die before we were able to replant it in the ground

which your honor has ruled is important for the message of christmas

yeah you're willing to kill a tree for your husband's uh happiness i appreciate that about you michael absolutely uh look i'm not i'm no botanist but you're saying you wouldn't be able to replant that tree Out in your yard.

Do you have a house?

You have a basement, so you got a house, right?

We live in a condo.

So, no, we don't have a yard that we could plant.

Okay, so it's a shared, you have a shared storage area where faky tree lives?

Yes, that's true.

Something like that?

All right.

So that potted tree, you would, you would not be able to replant.

Is that what you're saying?

We would not be able to replant it.

Matthew, you had a compromise that you alluded to.

Yes.

So I have, for many, many years, since I feel very strongly about this, I have proposed an every other arrangement where we could cut our already minimal, if zero, risk of spontaneous combustion of evergreen material by just alternating.

So that would cut zero in half.

And I feel like that would be fine.

I would happily celebrate half of my remaining Christmases with a fake tree and half of them with a real tree.

I'm glad you're counting down your remaining Christmases until your death.

You're a man after my own heart.

Michael,

let me guess.

Why that is unacceptable to you.

That means every other year, you're going to be terrified that the tree is going to catch on fire.

Basically, I mean, I think the key issue here is the circumstances should dictate whether or not we have an artificial tree or a real tree.

I'm not opposed to a real tree.

Should we be around to attend it?

Should we be able to dispose of it easily?

Should we live out in some rural area where we can just throw it in the yard once it's dead and all the pine needles are all over the place?

That's all fine with me, but that's not the situation we're in now.

And so arbitrarily saying we're going to switch every other year when our circumstances aren't switching every other year doesn't make sense to me.

No, but your circumstances are one half of the couple wants one thing, one half of the couple wants another thing.

That's always going to be true.

So what overriding reason should you get what you want every year over year over year?

Because my concerns are practical ones about the safety of our home and our cats.

And those are the circumstances that could change.

And if they do, I would be perfectly happy to have a real tree.

I'm sure, Michael, that Matthew would be willing to take the tree out and dispose of it when the time came, correct, Matthew?

It's actually unlikely because I'm going to be home from our travels before him, and so I'm going to be the one that comes home to the dead and desiccated tree.

Okay, give me your sketch.

I'm looking at the date right now.

We are recording this on December 14th, 2016.

And you currently do not have any tree up in your house.

Is that correct?

That's correct.

All right.

When do you propose that a tree, either real or fake, go up this year?

So I would propose that the fake tree could go up now and stay up until the beginning of February.

Beginning of February?

Yeah, Candlemas.

Oh, okay.

All right.

Interesting.

Candlemas.

I'm acting like I know what that is.

I did once.

Tell me now, because I'm sure some of our listeners probably also are nodding along as though they're pretending that they understand, but they don't.

So it's 40 days after Christmas, which, you know, 40 is an important number in biblical theology.

And it's also the presentation of Jesus in the temple.

So it's also, as far as the church is concerned, the official end of Christmas

And your family grew up having that, when they weren't burning the tree down, they were having that tree up until early February?

They actually would keep it up in some cases till April.

So they were not good about taking down the tree for any particular date.

Do you think that might have contributed to the fire danger?

When did they burn the tree down by accident?

Was it April 1st?

Was that when they were having their flamethrower party?

As I understand it, it was before Christmas.

It was before Christmas.

All right.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

Matthew, did you ever, in your family tradition, how long would that real tree stay up?

Not till February, certainly.

Usually around New Year's.

Right.

And then it would be time for that to go.

According to the evidence that you supplied, and Bailiff Jesse Thorne's now handing me some evidence.

lists upon lists of regulations in the Boston area.

Boston disposal of trees occurs on two dates, right?

January.

I'm looking in my notes here.

Would one of you have those notes?

It's the first two full weeks of January.

The first two full weeks of January.

Yeah, and they recycle them.

Right.

They mulch them and they use them for what, stuff?

Tree stuff, right?

Playgrounds.

Other things, possibly.

I don't think they put those on playgrounds anymore.

We use tires for that now.

Good.

Well, all right.

So

Michael is saying that you will not be around to toss that tree out because you're going to be traveling longer than the second week of January?

No, I will be back uh the middle of the week after Christmas.

So, Michael, there are eminent areas of compromise here.

And indeed, you found at least one of them, which was a baby nightstand consolation tree.

But there are many, many other areas of compromise.

I mean, Matthew, you could get a real tree before Xmas, then toss it out in January, then put up faky and keep it around till Candlemas expires on, you know, July the 9th or whatever it is.

Aaron Powell, yeah.

So I actually would be open to when we come back from our travels, putting up a real tree for as long as it will live and then replacing it with the artificial one.

The problem here is that we're going to be leaving for our travels before Christmas and then coming back after.

So there's about five or six days when no one would be here to attend the tree, hence the concern about the cats and it drying out during that time period.

I'd be more concerned about your cats dying of starvation.

Who's taking care of the cats?

We do generally have a cat sitter, so they could probably water the tree.

They're not going to starve if there's a tree there for them to eat.

That's true.

I forgot how much

cats love pine trees.

You know, I think, Michael, that obviously your family suffered a trauma, and there's no question that having a live, flammable, increasingly dried-out object in your house is obviously obviously a fire hazard.

You sent me many a pamphlet to this effect.

But what I'm having trouble squaring here is

the

now

45 years of empirical evidence that I've experienced of having a live tree and a cat.

and a tree that is left unattended for several days and never having any of the terrorful things that you describe happen.

So that's where, if I were a real judge, I might have to recuse myself because I am highly biased if you cannot tell.

Is there any reasonable precaution that you could take that would allay your fear that the tree is going to catch on fire while you're away in New Jersey?

I have a proposal, if I may.

That's Matthew speaking.

This is Matthew.

All right, stand by, Matthew.

I want to ask Michael,

and I want you to be honest.

Whatever your answer is is fine.

If you had a live, an actual living tree in your home unattended for four days, are there any precautions that would make you feel okay with that?

Or would you always be

worried and preoccupied?

I would certainly always be worried.

I think there are things that would lessen those worries, but unfortunately, some of those things are directly at odds with securing the tree against the cats, who, like I said, like water and would probably get into the water and dump it and things along those lines.

You sent me a video of your cats playing with water to prove that.

And what are you concerned about with the water exactly?

Let's talk about the cats for a second.

What's your, I mean, I understand the fire, most living creatures are afraid of fire, but very few trees are afraid of cats.

What are you concerned about vis-a-vis the cats interacting with the tree?

So if the cats should eat part of the tree, it can

cause problems for their intestines.

And also, the water that the trees sit in is toxic for the cats.

And so I'm concerned that the cats would play in it and end up ingesting it, which would obviously be bad for the cats, or play in it and knock over the water, therefore causing the tree to dry out.

Would it bring you comfort

to know that the website that we openly buzz market

Because I like them so much, the dual websites Wirecutter and the Sweet Home.

Their recommended Christmas tree stand, which I have purchased, has an enclosed water reservoir that is cat-proof and could not be drunk from by a pet of any kind.

So I think that would certainly be a start, but our cats have actually knocked over things that are supposed to be cat-proof and thereby caused water to flow throughout the house.

How big a tree are you thinking of getting?

A two-inch tree?

I've never been tree shopping, shopping, but it can't be more than seven feet, I would imagine.

Well, how high are your ceilings?

Nine.

Oh, yeah, then I probably would not be more than seven feet.

Okay, let me get to this video of your cats playing with water to see what's going to happen here.

What is this device that they're playing with?

So it's a little flower that drips water because whenever there were

open water and not flowing water, they would splash about in it and try to knock over things that would potentially cause bubbles.

But what is its purpose?

Is it designed to give cats fresh water?

Yes, that's right.

All right.

First of all, I got to mark that down on my pad.

I got to get one of these right away, even though I don't have a cat anymore.

Fantastic.

I like these cats playing with their water.

So what we're looking at here is a cat watering station.

that is electronic

and it's essentially a fountain and in the middle there's a little plastic flower, and water, it's like a little water feature, and water flows over the flower so the cats can play with it and stick their little paws in it.

Oh, Daphne and Alex, so adorable.

And look at that.

They got water all over the place.

And it's all plugged in.

It's an electrical thing that's plugged in, and it's got water, and it could burst into flame at any time.

It's fantastic.

I love it.

It does run while we are not home.

Matthew, you had something that you wanted to suggest.

Well, I feel very strongly that trees do not, in fact, spontaneously combust and that our cats could not induce it to do so.

And I would be perfectly happy with a tree that does not have any electrical wiring or lights on it as a possible solution to the problem with potential fires.

I'm not about to affix candles to it, but.

So you're talking about a tree without even lights?

Without lights.

I'm okay with just ornaments.

That's a major sacrifice.

Yes, I know.

So, Michael, Michael, let me just run down.

I've been making a note on my pad.

You're afraid of the tree catching fire from what source of

from lights or

from lights or from heat.

We don't have a heater.

Next to it.

You live in the cold?

What kind of heat do you have in that?

We have a forced air system, so it's located in the basement on the other side of the building.

Right, but the air has to come in through a vent.

Yes.

It's through a central area in our apartment.

Right.

So is it possible to put the tree not over that?

It would not be over it.

It would be not too far from it, but not over it.

Uh-huh.

Okay.

How far away?

Five feet.

All right.

So one of the fears is that warm air coming in from a vent might set it on fire.

Lights we've eliminated.

That's not going to be an issue.

Well, lights are actually an issue here because I feel that lights are actually an important part of how you decorate a Christmas tree, that a tree that has no sort of twinkle to it, no sort of lights, is sort of missing out on the whole symbolism of light and darkness.

Sure, I know, but you appreciate that Matthew feels so strongly about this that not only is he willing to cancel lights to get his live thing into the house, he's willing to cancel Christmas.

He's done it.

He's grinched out several times.

No tree, he said.

That's true.

And, you know, if for his little tree he doesn't want lights on it, I'm perfectly fine with that.

Yeah, yeah,

your little condescension tree, your little substitute tree.

I got you.

Cats are going to eat the needles and it's going to perforate their intestines and they're going to die.

Cats are going to drink the water.

It's going to have some pine resin in it.

They're going to die.

And

also cats are going to knock the tree over, right?

Those are all the fears.

Those are all the fears, yes.

Cats are going to drink that water and in their death throes, slam themselves up against a seven-foot tree, knock it over into theater,

and then then the flame elves are going to jump out of the heater and set the thing on fire.

Is that right?

That would be the worst-case scenario, yes.

It's true.

I really painted a word picture there.

And I would imagine when you're with your families in New Jersey, that this would be a distraction to you, correct?

Indeed.

Matthew, does Michael have any other

fears of this kind?

And this is not to cast judgment upon his fear, but rather

a fear or an anxiety that is very meaningful to him, but is utterly meaningless to you.

No, I can't think of anything else.

This is the one area where Michael's just like, I just think that this is going to happen.

And you're like, I just don't think it's going to happen.

Yes.

Right.

So if I rule in your favor, Matthew, what are we talking about?

Go out, get a live tree, put it up when?

Tomorrow?

December 15th?

Probably tonight.

I'm prepared to go pick one up tonight.

Really?

Yeah, I can't see you, but now that now you mentioned,

I think I heard in the background you putting on your coat and hat and

getting your chainsaw going.

You're ready to go tonight?

Yes, I could be persuaded.

Where would you go get it?

What part of Boston do you live in?

We live in Jamaica Plain, but we will pass several places that have trees.

Finally, we're talking about specific neighborhoods in Boston.

I thought it would never happen.

I've shown admirable restraint, wouldn't you say, Jesse?

Well, I mean, this is an essential recurring segment on the show.

List of Boston things.

Quick follow-up question, Matthew.

Have you ever been to Maine?

I have been to Maine.

What towns have you been to in Maine?

Ogonquit, Portland, Bar Harbor.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

All good towns.

towns.

Wells?

Did you ever eat an Eventide Oyster Company?

What town is that in?

In Portland?

I don't think I have.

Oh.

Guess what?

They're opening a branch in Boston.

Just read about that.

Yeah.

In my monitored Google News Alert of New England stuff.

All right.

You're saying if I find in your favor, Matthew, you guys are going to go out and get that live tree tonight,

and it will stay up until you throw it out the first two weeks of January.

I'm emphasizing by hitting my pen on my pad

and Michael will just have to deal with the fear while you guys are down with your with your parents and your grandmas and your nan-nans in New Jersey, correct?

Yes.

And for this year you'll give it a try

and then the next year

Michael can have a season of not freaking out and just enjoying the season because he knows there's this big fake tree in the middle of his house.

I suppose so.

Yeah.

All right.

Michael, if I find in your favor, there will never be a live tree for Christmas other than maybe a potted plant that you allow your husband to have, his own little sadness tree in a fireproof container.

Well, I'm open to reevaluating our Christmas tree situation when this artificial tree reaches the end of its natural life.

You mean in the year 2979?

When is the end of its natural life?

It's plastic or whatever.

You know, sometimes it loses some needles.

Every once in a while, we might move, you know, to a bigger place.

But

yeah, basically 2079 sounds like a good, good approximation.

The cats have shown a propensity to eat this particular artificial tree as well.

The cats are eating the fake tree already?

And every other green thing we ever bring into the house.

And do they and they haven't died yet?

Not so far.

I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go into my fireproof box and contemplate my single branch of mistletoe.

And I will come out after a moment with my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Matthew, how are you feeling about your chances of getting a live tree?

I am feeling pretty good about my chances.

I am.

I'm ready to go pick one up at his word.

Is the artificial tree kind of weird and gross?

That's how I've always imagined them to be.

No, it's fine.

I think I'm happy to celebrate with

an artificial tree, and I disagree with the precedent that that wouldn't actually be Christmas,

but I would just be happier with a real tree.

I think it brings something to the house that you don't get with an artificial tree.

Do you just walk around spraying some kind of weird pine essence when you have the artificial tree?

No, no, that would be weird.

No, that would be dope.

Give me some of that pine essence.

Michael, how are you feeling about your chances of preserving this plastic tradition?

Well, you know,

Judge Hodgman clearly has a preference for real trees, and so I

realize this is an uphill battle, but I feel that I've presented a strong case on the practicalities here, and I'm optimistic that reason will prevail here.

Are you already making plans to protect your cats from eating this tree?

They might have to come to New Jersey with us, should things be ruled in Matthew's favor.

Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all of this when we come back in just a second.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you, the members of maximumfun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to maximumfund.org slash join.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

When I was growing up in

a neighborhood of Brookline, Massachusetts called Chestnut Hill.

Now, Jesse, I'm sure you know that Chestnut Hill was not its own municipality, but a neighborhood that straddled Newton and Brookline.

And there was the Star Market, but that was on the Newton side.

You know all that stuff that I like to talk about?

Yeah, sure.

You want to talk about 16th and Mission Streets in San Francisco in 1989 for a minute?

You know where the Chestnut Hill Mall is?

You remember that bald guy that had the newsstand and you always kind of wondered if he was just a shaved head guy or maybe some kind of neo-Nazi.

Do you remember going in to Brookline News and Gifts and getting all your comic books?

You remember that?

Remember how the nachos were better at El Toro, but the burritos were better at El Taco Loco?

I remember the Greek salad at Alan Tony's next to the pizza place next to the Coolidge Corner movie theater had the most garlicky dressing, but it was the most delicious thing.

And

it would always be an issue because if one person from the movie theater during a shift got that Greek salad, we all had to get it or else we'd all just the one person would just stink.

Okay, you win, you win, you win.

And we also called it Alan Tomains.

That was our joke.

Anyway, I live next door to a family.

I may have mentioned this in the past.

Dear friends, the Rosenmeiers.

And Jesper Rosenmeier, the father, who unfortunately passed away recently,

was from Denmark.

And Peter Rosenmeier was my good friend, a little bit older than me, and he would invite me over for their Xmas celebrations.

And because of the old world traditions, they would put a tree in the middle of their living room and they put legit candles on it, real fire.

They would put these beautifully crafted counterweight candle holders that would that would perch delicately at the end of each little branch and then they would light each one of those candles on fire

And it was the most astonishingly irresponsible celebration of anything that I've ever encountered and thus was profoundly beautiful because even as a child, when I believed that I was immortal, facing my certain death,

seeing that tree lit up with such beauty,

It was a profoundly moving moment.

And then they would look look at the tree for a period of time until the test of wills failed someone, and they're like, We got to blow those out.

And then they would.

They'd snuff them out with a candle snuffer.

Guess what never happened, though?

Tree never caught on fire.

Now, look, I know that trees catch on fire, but I'm trying to explain to you the strange feeling of

disorientation this court finds itself in

because

Michael very dutifully provided,

as I say, pamphlets from fire departments warning against the fire hazards of trees, web links to pet care sites, warning against the dangers of cats being near Christmas trees and how cats would immediately die

if they ate a single pine needle or drank a, or lapped a little bit of that tree water up.

I don't want to deny that what we're proposing, those of us of the real tree school of thought, is not without risk or danger.

And in fact,

that's part of the reason why the symbol is so powerful, as I mentioned way back in verdict number eight.

It is the bringing of outdoor, enduring

life

into the home and using it as kindling of light against the darkness,

and hopefully not burning down your family in a flamethrower party of New Jersey in 1981.

But even though I know that that is possible, Michael, you and I are at a weird impasse because you, having had this one traumatic experience in your family before you were born, passed down in lore.

You know what Christmas trees do.

They just catch on fire and kill cats.

It's just a given to you.

Whereas I know from 45 years of observed evidence of 40, at least 45 live trees, actually 44, this will be my 45th live tree,

and one,

two,

three,

maybe four cats in my or my parents' possession of all ages throughout their lifespans.

And, you know, tree, tree not merely put five foot away from

a vent, kind of breathing hot breath into the air, but like trees trees next to fireplaces.

Trees that were left unattended for a week while we went to Philadelphia after, and then we came back and then we threw it away.

It just none of it ever happened.

And I'm not saying this to you to persuade you because I don't know that you're persuadable.

I just mean this is one of those situations where we experience reality differently.

In 45 years of celebrating with a live tree with cats in the house, not only did they not catch on fire, but the cat mortality was far more likely to be linked to me or my mom or my wife bringing a cat to a veterinarian for to be killed due to old age, to a tune of 100% of the time.

Zero Christmas tree-related cat deaths.

But the nature of this, I think, is such that even though I would say that the fears that you have are profoundly much more unlikely than you imagine, there are no words that I could say, or even your husband could say, that would change your mind.

Because I know that if I were in your shoes and I lived in your reality,

that I wouldn't be able to stop thinking.

I'm a natural warrior.

I wouldn't be able to stop thinking

about that big old tinder log in my condo.

I wouldn't be able to enjoy my wassail with my family.

The only thing that would convince you, Michael, is if I ordered by force

that you endure the live tree, not merely the live tree while you're in the house, but the live tree while you're out of the house.

And through sort of immersion therapy, that you face this phobia and slowly maybe begin to appreciate it's not very likely that the tree is going to self-immolate and the cats are going to suicide themselves with tree curiosity.

They will mess up some of your ornaments, that is for darn sure.

But I'm not even sure that that will ever work.

If this were a situation where you guys were going to stay home and not travel,

then I would absolutely be ordering in Matthew's favor.

Because then, at least for one Christmas season, you could watch and see that this thing is not going to murder you and your cats, but in fact, is just an oversized house plant.

But I don't think one season, one season of you guys out of the house with that tree in your house would convince you, Michael.

I think it would take several seasons, and then it might not even work at all.

So it's a very difficult decision for this court because I think what we all deserve,

whether or not we celebrate Christmas at this time of year, if we observe Hanukkah, if we observe Saturnalia, if we observe Church of Satan, Regular Day,

any of it, this is the time of year traditionally, and certainly in the New England states, where it is dark and cold and miserable, where we deserve comfort and reduction of stress as much as possible.

The funny thing is, you guys seem to want to go see your family, which to me, that's only a stress enhancer.

I wish I could just order you to stay home and sit in front of a live tree and be there together with Alex and Daphne.

But it sounds like you guys want to see your family, right?

Is that correct?

That is correct.

That's correct.

Yeah.

What a shame.

What a shame.

I had the perfect solution.

But instead, imperfect solution.

I cannot order Michael to go through stress this year or any other.

He cannot go home and feel terror that his home is going to burn up.

He needs the comfort of phoniness in his house.

And so I will not order in Matthew's favor, though, as much as I am on his side.

My feeling is

that

Michael needs to work on this fear.

And the way to do it is for Matthew to take baby steps.

and take that baby consolation tree, just like when he was a kid, and put that potted tree in the bedroom, and slowly and surely, over what I trust will be a long and happy marriage,

show through action that trees are no threats to man or cats.

It gives this court no great joy

to enable fear that it considers to be not entirely rational.

And yet, comfort and joy is the nature of the season, and I require that that Michael have a good holiday season.

And Matthew, you go out and buy that little tiny tree and you decorate it yourself.

Maybe you don't let Michael look at it.

That's the spiteful answer.

There we go.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Michael, how do you feel?

I'm very relieved that Judge Hodgman ruled in my favor, and I think that he was very wise to institute the compromise that I proposed for the reasons that he stated.

Matthew, how about you?

I'm just sad.

Very, very sad.

Have you thought about getting a sadness tree?

Yes, I have thought about that, and I think I'll have to implement that.

You're going to need a shed first.

Yes, yes, I'll have to work on that as well.

Well, gentlemen, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Hi, I'm Amber Nash, the voice of Pam Poovy on the groundbreaking FX animated comedy Archer.

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The wizards answer eight by eight.

The Conclave's call to demonstrate their arcane gift, their single spell.

They number 64

until

a conflagration

63

and 62 they soon shall be, as one by one the wizards die,

till one remains to reign on high.

Join us for Taz Royale, an oops all wizards battle royale season of the adventure zone every other Thursday on maximumfun.org or wherever you get your podcasts.

Judge Sean Hodgman, I hate to interrupt your wassle.

Oh, sorry, I was just, what's your address again?

Mm-hmm.

All right, just enter in your address for this aluminum Christmas tree.

What a surprise this will be for you.

I found one that actually catches on fire, Jesse.

I want to thank Rob C.

for naming this week's case.

If you want to name future cases, it's easy.

Just

follow us on Facebook, like JudgeJohn Hodgman, and on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

We're coming to San Francisco in January and Chicago in February, and we're looking for cases.

That's right.

If you would like to have your case be considered for our live Judge John Hodgman show at the very, very fun day in Chicago

or in January at our live show at the San Francisco Sketch Fest.

Well, make your way over to maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho.

State your case as you always do, but make a point of saying, hey, I'm in Chicago or hey, I'm in San Francisco or Oakland, the Bay Area in general.

And

if we choose your case, guess what?

You get free tickets.

And if you already got tickets and we choose your case, I'll give you a hug.

Yeah, and that applies whether or not you live in those places.

If you don't live in those places, we still need your cases at maximumfun.org slash JJ Ho.

John, are you going to be appearing anywhere else as your own lonely self?

Well, right after San Francisco Sketch Fest, I will be appearing on television on the At Midnight Show with the great Eugene Merman as my co-panelist and as my other co-panelist, the wonderful Josie Long.

whom I only know because of my friend Jessie Thorne introducing me to her and her fantastic comedy at Max FunCon some years ago.

If you want to attend the taping, it's really easy to go get free tickets.

And the link is on my website at johnhodgman.com/slash tour.

You'll also see that I'll be touring around with the Boston Pops.

I do a little jokey rewriting of Benjamin Britton's A Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra, which is a lot of fun.

Guess who I know in Florida?

Basically, zero people.

I'm going to Fort Lauderdale and Jacksonville and other places, West Palm Beach.

If you're a listener to the Judge John John Hodgman Show and you're down there, let me know because I would love to see a friendly face.

Yeah, I think that sounds like a lot of fun.

I'm kind of into that.

I'm kind of into narrated orchestral performances.

We have a good time, and at the end, I want to, no spoilers here, but at the end of every performance, I stand on stage and eat a cheese sandwich.

Oh, well, that sounds like a ton of fun.

I worked that into the script so I could have a snack.

That's what they call a piece des résistance.

Hui, maisui.

Oh, I'm sorry, piece de fromage.

One good piece.

I want to encourage people, if you're looking for the very last second Christmas gift or a gift to yourself with that check that grandma gave you, to check out putthison shop.com.

I think probably a lot of Judge John Hodgman listeners know that I run the menswear blog, put this on, but more than that, I run its associated vintage notions and accessories shop.

And you can get free shipping on anything with the code, almost anything, with the code Bat Brothers.

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And man,

the bad news is that we just sold the enormous bronze cow trophy

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And lots of other brilliant things.

So go check it out because I think you'll find something that you like, whether or not you're a fancy boy like me.

And of course, another last-minute Christmas gift I would be remiss if I did not mention the Judge John Hodgman Justice Through the Ages t-shirt subscription club featuring all new exclusive to the subscription t-shirt designs.

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Go to maxfundstore.com and you can find all of our maximum fun merchandise.

Our producer is Jennifer Marmer.

Special thanks to Paul Ruest over there in New York City, and of course, the folks at the PRX Podcast Garage in Boston, Massachusetts.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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