First Whirlpool Problems

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, first whirlpool problems.

Courtney brings the case against her husband, Josh.

They want to get a hot tub for their home.

They can't agree on which type to buy.

Josh wants a charming, wood-fired cedar tub.

Courtney wants a more practical, standard fiberglass tub.

Who's right?

Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents the obscure cultural reference.

Are you feeling better, Bailiff Jesse?

Why don't you come in the hot tub?

It's really nice.

Jesse, I can flip out real easy too.

It's okay.

Sooner or later, Everybody goes to the zoo.

Come on, Bailiff Jesse, Swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God, or whatever?

We do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that his hot tub is carved out of an enormous mound of Humboldt fog cheese?

Yes.

Yes.

Very well, Judge Hodgman.

No real premise to that joke, by the way.

Just a funny type of cheese.

I love a Humboldt fog ref.

You know, the beauty of the Humboldt Fog hot tub is not the cheese so much, but the thin layer of ash

that makes it medicinal.

Courtney and Josh, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment.

One of your favors, you're both going to get a chance to guess the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom.

Josh, you have been brought here against your will.

by your wife, Courtney.

So you get to guess the cultural reference first or

make Courtney guess first and maybe get some information out of that.

What is your decision, Josh?

I'm going to guess Ferris Bueller's day off.

All right, there you go.

That's it.

Later, guys.

Looks like it's Bailiff Jesse's day off.

Yep, shut it down.

I hope you're happy, Josh.

Well done.

That's it.

That's the sound of a gavel.

Well done, Josh.

Wow, I'm glad we could do business here.

Thank you.

That was a rare home run.

That's a good thing in sports, right, Jesse?

Yes, sir.

But it's just like you just run the bases, right?

Yeah, you got it.

There's no taking it back.

It's a free pass to score a point or multiple points, which in baseball are known as runs.

Yeah.

And we haven't had

a hit out of the baseball lodge like that in a long time.

Baseball is not played in a lodge, Your Honor.

It's not an elaborate gifting ceremony of the Northwest Coast Native American peoples.

Yeah, I think if you really looked at it, you would see there's a lot more similarity than you're willing to give it.

You're thinking of potlatches.

Ah, that's right.

But yeah, no, we haven't

had such a solid and accurate guess, especially, and I've got to give it to you, Josh.

You know, most people, they pass that guess on to the next person, try to buy some time, but you didn't.

You came out swinging, and you clearly know Ferris Bueller's day off.

I haven't had a traumatic switcheroo like this since election night, you guys.

This is terrible.

This is is terrible.

This is not how it's supposed to be.

Why don't you explain to your wife the scene that I was quoting from and why it is relevant to this case?

So it's at the end of the movie, and I don't remember the friend's name, but the friends, they've just crashed the car.

Cameron?

Cameron.

Yeah, and

he's basically had a freak out.

Hey, Courtney, next time he doesn't remember something, don't remind him.

Because that's how I'm going to get out of this thing.

All right.

sorry so yeah so so cameron is sitting on the end of the diving board uh i don't know they haven't crashed the car yet that the but the odometer is like way off from what it's supposed to be and uh and he's basically like catatonic and she's trying to coax him off the diving board by coming into the hot tub um and instead of doing that he falls on the into the pool and almost drowns You really have a sophisticated and complex memory of the movie Ferris Bueller's Day Off for a guy who can't name the second lead.

Maybe it just shows what's important to me.

And what was the name of Ferris Bueller's girlfriend's character?

Was it like Simone, something like that?

I don't know.

Courtney's making a face like she knows the answer to this.

No,

it was a weird name.

Hang on.

I learned my lesson.

Oh, no, I know it.

I know it.

So I'm going to win this one.

Sloan.

And I did not look it up.

And I certainly did not need to look up the name of the actor.

Can you name the actor?

Oh, no.

I'm terrible at that one.

Oh, I mean, I know Matthew Broderick.

That's probably as far as deep as I can go in that movie.

Yeah.

The actor who played Sloan is Mia Sarah.

And the actor who played Cameron,

you don't know who that is, do you?

No, I don't know that either.

How dare you?

How dare you?

How dare you?

I mean, you still win the case, but I mean, how dare you?

How dare you guess Ferris Bueller's day off

and not know the the name

of Alan Ruck, one of the great,

great character actors

of all time.

I bet you can't even name which one of my college friends looks a lot like Alan Ruck in Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

It's Matt Dobbs.

I bet you can't even name where...

Mia Sarah went to high school with my friend Patrick Flynn before he moved to Brookline.

Yeah, you don't even know that that's St.

Anne's in Brooklyn Heights, New York.

Yeah, I guess we're going to have to go ahead with this case, Judge Hodgman.

I bet you don't even know why I chose that cultural reference.

I don't know why.

I mean, other than that there's a hot tub in it.

Wrong!

I chose that cultural reference because Ferris Bueller is a monster just like you.

He's a horrible, horrible person.

That movie is about a sociopath who uses his friends without consideration to their life at all.

So you're on Team Rooney?

In order to amuse himself.

That's going to go down a whole different alley.

The Jeffrey Jones alley ends in stuff we can't talk about on the air.

It's a sad alley.

You don't know what that is.

Guess what?

You just missed another cultural reference.

No, Ferris Bueller is a sociopath who uses his so-called friends for his own pleasure and delight.

He uses Cameron to get his car.

He has absolutely no concern for Cameron's well-being and tries to pass off traumatizing him as giving him a little life lesson.

Oh,

like our president.

And the other thing about that scene is that it's

because Ferris Bueller rescues Cameron from the pool, It's one of those moments in the film that disproves a rather tantalizing internet fan theory that in fact in fact Ferris Bueller doesn't exist and and Cameron is is the main character and Ferris Bueller is kind of like a fight club Tyler Durden

creation of his own sick mind I love that one Judge Hodgman is this entire case about hot tubs gonna be used as like a satirical framework for your famous political satire I just you know what I'm here.

I'm here in the, in the chambers, and I got buddy, the cue card guy, just making that like fill time hand gesture

because

Josh won the case.

Josh won that.

How old are you, Josh?

I'm 39.

Oh,

yeah, right in the wheelhouse.

Hey, producer Jennifer Marmer, just make a note.

Make sure I get their ages before I do these cultural references.

Ruin.

You ruined the podcast for your own pleasure.

Good job.

I can't wait to share a hot tub with you.

You're going to fart in it to laugh.

Take a nice thing like a hot tub, make it into a fart tub.

That's you, Josh.

So angry.

Oh, I mean, Courtney, the truth is, this is one of those situations, right, where clearly you, you clearly win the popular vote.

That's good to know.

But by doesn't really help, though.

By the imperfect laws

that we use to govern this courtroom

josh you are officially the winner of this case but i'm going to talk to you i'm going to see if there's anything redeeming in you at all by talking to you

all right this dispute is about a hot tub

you guys live in the boston area is that correct courtney yes that's correct uh you where in boston do you live uh we live in lexington lexington Massachusetts.

And how far is that from the Back Bay?

I don't know.

Have you ever been to Boston?

I think it's all towns away.

Yeah.

It's a historic suburb, would you not say?

Yes, I would say that it would probably take about 40 minutes by tea.

Yeah.

Famous for its historical shot heard around the world, the Battle of Lexington, the first battle of the American Revolution, get ready for the Battle of Lexington 2 happening right now.

That's right.

And so, you know what you don't usually have a lot of in New England is due to climate issues is outdoor hot tubs.

But you want to put one in.

Is that not right, Courtney?

That is correct.

Because of the climate.

Because of the, well, explain what you mean.

There is nothing quite so nice as sitting outside on an incredibly cold evening,

especially if it's snowing, and enjoying being warm and toasty in a nice hot tub.

And so you would, and I can attest to having some outdoor hot tubs during the dead of winter at East Heaven hot tubs in Northampton, Massachusetts, buzz market.

I can do anything I want now because the rules of this court had been just been shredded by Josh winning fair and square.

Oh,

so mad.

It is a wonderful feeling, but the dispute is over whether or not you're going to get a prefabricated fiberglass hot tub or Josh's preference, a big old wooden hot tub that's powered by fire and made with his own hands.

Correct.

Now,

first of all, Josh, are you a Nick Offerman?

Can you actually build a hot tub with your own hands, or is this something that you've been scheming about doing for a long time while you've been painting lead miniatures in the basement of orcs and stuff?

Well, there's nothing wrong with painting lead miniatures.

We'll start with that.

Why?

You think I'm right?

That's right.

The court stands corrected.

I'm totally humbled.

Thank you.

I think you struck a nerve.

No,

I think building it could be part of the fun of putting this together.

And you do it.

Yes.

Have you done it?

No, that's what we're here for today.

But I think if we get a yes from you, then yeah, it's getting built.

Have you done anything like it?

Is there any reason that I am to believe

that you,

a miniature painter

and half-rememberer of Ferris Bueller, is capable of doing what you claim, constructing...

a wooden hot tub that will be powered by fire.

Yes,

we built a camping hot tub that we took in our canoe that was powered by the campfire on our canoe trip this summer.

I don't know whether you just brought a bunch of boards.

No, so it's an inflatable tub, and we built a heat exchanger out of copper coils and a battery-powered pump.

And

it actually got so hot, we had to turn it down because we heated this huge pool of water up.

So, yeah.

And I believe you sent in a picture of this that we'll put on the show page at maximumfund.org.

Let me scroll down and take a look at your...

Yeah, so there is a photo here of the of this,

but this is an inflatable hot tub.

It is.

Where'd you go camping?

Up in Maine on the Saco River.

Oh, inland, Maine?

Yeah.

What a shame.

Not go to Acadia National Park?

I have been to Acadia, but we didn't go on this trip.

Can we not just spend this entire episode listing things in New England for one episode of the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Oh, see what you've done?

See how you've emboldened my bailiff?

You operate through pure dominance.

You will not be satisfied until I am humiliated completely.

All of Maine is beautiful,

but this hot tub looks like junk.

This is like a kiddie pool that you brought with you.

Oh yeah, this is a homemade camping hot tub.

So this is not what I'm imagining building at our house.

This isn't like one of those sweet camping hot tubs that rolls off an assembly line in China in some ritzy prefab camping hot tub.

But this is not a homemade camping hot tub.

This is an inflatable commercial product and it is not made of woods.

Well, so the tub itself is an easy set pool, but the heat exchanger and all the things that make it a hot tub were handmade by me and my friend.

You made the heat exchanger?

Yeah.

You bent the copper and everything?

Bent the copper, we made a sheet metal enclosure for it.

We built, yeah, built the whole thing.

What do you just fell down and then one day you you woke up with the ability to do this?

Or did you do some research or something?

It's funny.

We've been talking about it for maybe 15 years,

scheming on how to build this.

And just one day we're like, all right, we're either doing it now or we should just stop talking about it and so we built it.

Well, I thi I think that the tipping point of them finally building it was no longer being 22 and broke and being able to afford the copper and the parts that they needed so

a lot of the discussion was how to do it for like three dollars cheaper and it's sort of like well maybe we can just spend the three dollars and just buy some of the parts like the easy set pool did you go ahead and buy those pipes from a local toothless man

there was a version of this where we tried to build it out of stuff we scavenged out of a uh out of a dumpster but uh no we we bought all that we went to home depot we this is like as you you get older, you start to sell out.

You just go to the store and just buy stuff.

Yeah, I would, you know what?

I would not, I would, I would not call designing and manufacturing your own heat exchange system selling out.

I actually have to,

as angry as I am with you, I have to acknowledge that you did something that I could never, ever do.

And I apologize for

maligning your other hobby of painting orcs.

You win, Daddy.

All right, we did, we did also build some stuff for the playground, so that's

like a play we built a play fort so

we out of wood so all right

so courtney it sounds like uh it sounds like josh does have some skills at scheming up and uh and making

things out of wood and metal i have no doubt that he could actually do it so why don't you want him to do it why don't you want your man to construct a beautiful wooden

thing

with his own hands and he can sit in a stew of his own self-satisfaction like he's doing right now.

My issue is just that the cedar hot tub, while beautiful and while certainly within Josh's wheelhouse to build,

is going to take a lot more maintenance and it's going to take time to keep it going.

In the middle of winter, if we decide we want to use it, we're going to have to build a fire, stoke the fire,

wait for the hot tub to heat up.

Whereas a regular hot tub, we could just an hour earlier push a button and get it up to hot tub temperatures or even keep it near hot tub temperatures during the times when we think we're going to want to use it.

So Courtney, you say it takes an hour for a regular commercial fiberglass hot tub to heat up.

Is it much longer for a wood-fired hot tub?

I think it depends on what temperature you keep it at on a regular basis for the

regular one.

Right.

You two are aware that no one who has a hot tub in their home actually uses it ever.

I don't think that's true.

It's true.

Jesse.

Because you have to plan ahead.

No one's like, you know what I would love to do in 90 minutes?

I'm planning ahead for it right now.

I would love to have a hot tub in 90 minutes.

If I could hit a nest thing on my app and fire up a hot tub back at my house, I'd totally be doing it.

I would get in that hot tub and I would have some white wine.

Oh, wait a minute.

that's not me at all.

I probably wouldn't do that.

But yeah, I think that having a hot tub would be a lovely thing.

Why do you hate hot tubs so much?

I don't.

I love hot tubs.

But that's the trick of the hot tub.

The hot tub is a device that convinces you to think that you would like to have a hot tub in your home.

But actually what a hot tub in your home is, is just like the world's most complicated and expensive bread maker.

Like you buy a bread maker, you think, oh, I'm making all my bread from here on out in this bread maker.

And then you never use it again and it shows up at the Salvation Army in three years and a hot tub is like that only you can't give it to the salvation army it's too big and wet i don't want to eat any of that hot tub bread though that's weird i would never do that

it's better for stews

well i mean i think that there is an issue though courtney

that bailiff jesse raises

which is you're saying that For the hot tub to heat up quickly, you have to keep it at a certain temperature, right?

Correct.

And that temperature that's powered by electricity correct yes right

so it's sort of like

uh you

it's gonna be an expense uh an expense of energy and money to keep it at baseline

and the wood-fired hot tub would not incur

well that's true that we would have to use more energy just along the line to keep it but um

that's one thing is i have josh hasn't hasn't demonstrated to me that uh having the wood-fired one that it won't the pipes and stuff involved in it won't freeze if we're not keeping it at the regular temperature um or the water inside wouldn't freeze

well that's a good point josh you're going to keep uh water in your in your cedar hot tub all winter long are you going to skate on it in february

well so you don't you actually do have to keep water in them because it's like a barrel so they have to stay wet in order to stay watertight so so courtney's got a point is you can't just like drain it when you're not using it you got to keep water in there all the time but they the even the wood-fired ones can have an either electric or propane auxiliary heater that you could set at you know just above freezing or something like that if that's what you're worried about so there is a way of solving that yeah here's one little diy solution you've got your wood-fired hot tub and to keep the water at temperature you just plug in a hair dryer turn it on hot and toss it in

So this brings up a sort of tangential comment that I wanted to bring up because

we submitted a letter that was on the docket clearing episode.

And I'm pretty clear on that one.

This was on the toaster oven dispute.

Wait

a minute.

That you told me to take shark your pie hole, sir.

You already got a hearing on the docket, and now you're coming back for another bite?

Is that what's happening?

That is exactly what I'm saying.

Although I did lose that one.

Boy, oh, boy.

What was your beef before?

This was at the, so we needed a new toaster oven, and I wanted a four-sliced toaster, and Courtney wanted a toaster oven.

You guys got the Brevel.

We did get the Brevel, and it's fantastic, by the way.

I don't know if you're starting to get money for that or not, but you should because we bought it based on your description.

We had a giveaway.

Brevel was very nice about it, and I still love their products.

But, you know, Moxie,

East Heaven hot tubs,

they just take what we give them and walk away.

Take, take, take, take, take, take, take.

That's all they do.

So

what's the tangential issue with regard to your toaster oven?

You want to toss that into your hot tub?

No.

So at the so Courtney was willing to compromise and get both.

And I was concerned about the having too many things in the counter.

And you suggested if I was worried about that, I could just take it into the bath with me, which seems a little bit like a threat on my life.

I don't know if that's how it's meant.

And this is a second one of bringing electronics into the hot tub.

So I'm wondering if there's a little bit of a theme developing.

I don't know whether that speaks to the slow erosion of my comedic imagination as I get older or just an intuitive sense that I want you to be electrocuted

that I hadn't even recognized until you drew the connection.

It's like we were fated to meet time and again, and for me to suggest that you sit in a tub with more electrical equipment thrown into it.

By the way, to the kids who are driving listening to this, don't toss any toasters or hair dryers into bodies of water.

You will die.

Don't ever, don't ever do it.

So you would have to create some sort of

non-wood heat source to keep the water above freezing, is that right?

That's right.

There'd be an auxiliary heater in addition to the wood-fired stove that would sort of keep it at some baseline temperature.

And so can we basically call it a wash on wastefulness of energy on both of these things?

So I think if we were going to be really honest, Courtney, the fiberglass hot tubs are more efficient because they're better insulated, so they hold on to more heat between use.

And I think that's made up for the fact that, you know, wood fire hotsaw would come from wood that we would split and it is locally sourced and all that good stuff.

So I think it is a wash, but I think if you're counting pounds of carbon or something like that, the other one is probably more energy efficient.

Well, not least, that burning wood in and of itself is

significantly environmentally deleterious, especially in an area where people live.

That's why there are no burn days in many places.

They contribute directly to low-quality air.

By the way, Bailiff Jesse, you're killing it.

Thank you for that.

Sure.

I'm just going to sit back and listen to this guy's sputter.

I got more plans to say the word deleterious later.

I love it.

I love it.

Go.

Good.

Go on.

Answer for yourself, Josh.

Boy, oh, boy.

You scammed your way onto my podcast twice.

You get the cultural reference.

Live it up, buddy.

Go on.

Perfect.

You know, I think part of the fun of the wood fire hot tub, though, is the wood smoke, right?

It's that you're out there, it's cold.

I mean, in the same way, you know,

a fire in the fireplace during the winter time is just nice.

And it's, you know, I think that's part of the whole experience.

You know, I think if you just wanted to sit in warm water, like we've got a bathtub.

Could you get a fiberglass hot tub and then just put some liquid smoke in there?

You know, I'm happy to drink a PD scotch or something like that.

Yeah, we could probably make that work.

Just to get a sense, do you have a sense of how much wood you have to burn in order to have a good two or three hours, well, maybe not, to have a good 90-minute soak?

I think it's not that much.

I think you basically like load up the burner and you let it run.

It's like running a wood stove for an hour.

It's, you know, certainly, you know, you'd want to have a nice pile of wood there, but, you know, you're not burning, you know, a whole forest or something to heat up the hot tub.

It's, you know, a little, you know, it's a little fire.

Got it.

And Courtney, Josh paints a very woodsy image.

Is it one that is simply unattractive to you?

Or do you simply feel it's

it's just not as easy as a fiberglass tub?

It does sound like an attractive picture.

I just

I'm concerned that

if there is maintenance that needs to be done on it, that we just won't do it the way that we're supposed to.

And

talk to me about the maintenance situation here, because quite honestly, having a big honking piece of

electronic equipment in a fiberglass tub regulating the heat in a bunch of sit-in water,

that requires,

I've been to homes and places that have had hot tubs, and they're always broken.

All those hot tubs are always broken, and you got to call a man

or a woman to come fix it for you.

This is just what he's talking about is just a barrel full of water with a fireplace attached to it.

Am I not right, Josh?

That's basically the long and short of it.

So importantly, what is the maintenance you foresee being difficult with

the caveman hot tub?

Well, I just, you know, the winters here are not kind to wooden things.

So I'm worried about

the woods rotting and

things developing in that way.

But even more than the maintenance, I worry about how long it's going to take to get the water going, how hard it's going to be to change the temperature up or down once it's going, the fact that the

heater is actually in the tub with you, and we have small children who will enjoy using the hot tub with us.

And

I'm not so thrilled about that.

And it's also,

if you've ever looked at the seats in these hot tubs, it's just a wooden bench that goes all around, which doesn't seem nearly as comfortable as the sort of design-to-be-sat-in, in nice

seats in the regular hot tubs.

Guys, I don't mean to talk about an elephant in the room here, but what about jets?

Yes, that's a very good point is that they have, although the seater hot tubs that I have seen do mention jets, I think it's many fewer than in a commercial tub.

Well, let's get down to brass jets on this.

Josh, do you have a plan?

I mean, not just a vague plan, but actually plans for the hot tub that you plan to build?

Yeah.

Does it have jets?

It does have jets.

How?

So at some level, the componentry is actually pretty similar to a regular hot tub.

It's just like installed through portholes in the wood.

So there are pumps, there's filters, there's like, especially if you start adding the auxiliary heaters, it's essentially everything that's under the cover of a regular hot tub, just in a little box that sits next to the hot tub.

So it has all of those same things.

And presumably it will have a cover, an incredibly unattractive vinyl cover, just like every other electric or, you know, fiberglass hot tub has, that you can cover it up when you're not using it, right?

Absolutely.

All right.

And where did you get these plans?

So there are companies that sell kits.

So we probably, so we haven't bought it yet, obviously, but we would buy a kit that would come.

Actually, you know, the wood parts are all pre-cut.

It's really building it sort of sounds very grandiose.

I think it's really assembling it is what we would do.

And

Courtney mentioned that the heating source is inside the tub.

How do you light fire underwater?

So they describe them as a snorkel tub.

So basically there's a wood stove that's submerged in the water and the sort of the chimney comes out.

And for safety, there's basically a fence around that.

So one thing you do lose is you lose one seat's worth of space in the hot tub because basically like a wood stove is taking that seat.

Oh, so there's a fence in front of the heat source.

That's right.

A wooden, it looks like a picket fence.

Right.

And you feed the heat source obviously from the outside perimeter of the hot tub, right?

Because you're not putting your wood underwater.

Right.

So either through the, there's two different kinds.

One where it's sort of built into the wall where you feed it from the outside, and there's another where the top of the wood stove kind of comes up and you feed it from above the water line, kind of straight down.

There is a dispute as well over where the hot tub should be.

Yes.

Tell me about that, Courtney.

So we have two potential sites for the hot tub.

One is that the house that we live in, some previous owner of the house built a fenced-in enclosed deck off of the master bathroom that I think they actually had a hot tub on.

And that's where Josh would like to put a hot tub.

I would prefer to put it...

Yeah, that sounds like the hot tub deck.

Well, one of the things that we would like to do with this hot tub is when we have visitors or have friends over,

would be to use the hot tub with a group and,

you know, and enjoy the nice evening.

And

what, are you guys a reality show?

What is The Bachelorette over at your house?

No, but I, you know, I...

You live in Massachusetts.

Let me ask you a quick question.

Quick question.

You guys going to hot tub in the nude?

No.

Because I don't know what you're capable of at this point.

You're going to have people over in Massachusetts

and they're going to sit in bathing suits together?

That's not, where are you from?

I'm from Texas.

I don't understand you at all.

Is there a lot of hot tubbins you grew up?

Hot tubbin in Texas?

No.

Where'd you grow up?

I grew up in Houston.

So where'd you get the taste for the tub?

I go on an annual ski trip with a group of friends and we always rent a house that has a hot tub and it's the best part of our day during this trip is coming home and after a day of being out in the snow and sitting in this hot tub and drinking wine.

Just a chance to relax in the snow with your friends and not listen to Josh hammering some copper pipe together over there.

Exactly.

Yeah, that's hot tub country out there.

The West.

Where do you go skiing?

Well, not exactly the West.

We go.

You go Vermont?

Vermont, Maine.

Okay, yeah, okay.

Western New England.

Western New England.

But hot tubbinism seems to me as a Western tradition that ski places in New England honor because it is part of the hedonism of

the ski trip.

And you want to bring all that and put it in your backyard in Lexington.

Yes.

Well, you know what?

I admire your dreams.

I really do.

If you're going to try to expand your sense of self to be the kind of person who brings people home to get in the hot tub with you, I love it.

You make it sound so sordid.

Yeah, that's what it is.

Taking a bath with other adults.

I mean,

I love hot tubs, but you have to, let's call it what it is.

It's a big human soup.

And so you want to have friends over and to get in the tub after you guys have your fondue or whatever after you share as much saliva as you can at dinner you want to get into a soup with them

and get loose and so why is hot tub deck not not appropriate for that

to me it feels weird to bring people through our house is laid out in a way that our bedroom is way off of the common area of the house.

And so it's sort of taking people into the back of the house, through into our bathroom and through our bathroom,

which to me feels a little bit creepy and also means that

while normally when we have people over, we don't necessarily have to have our bathroom in perfect order.

Anytime that we wanted to have people come and use the hot tub, they'd have to go to the house.

You have to go through a private.

I think it's a little creepy that your guests will have to go through a private intimate space before they get half-nude and get into a bathtub with you.

Yes.

Okay, I understand.

Bad flow is what you're saying.

Exactly.

Plus, it is really far from access to our kitchen, which is where the wine would be.

And that's a big part of access to the hot tub is access to the wine.

So your idea is that you're going to put your fiberglass hot tub outside the door to the kitchen.

You all have a nice time, then you all get in the hot tub together.

Are your friends going to go for this, really?

Are they all hot tub people too?

Yes.

All right.

Josh, do you concur that you guys are a bunch of hedonist hedonist weirdos who are just hiding in New England, but in fact would rather be

in Napa?

So,

yes.

Yeah.

No, I think that we do,

what Courtney describes, like people coming over and hanging out at the hot tub, I think that is going to happen.

It's a vision, but realistically, is that going to happen?

Yeah, no, I think it would happen, but I think that also gets at why I don't think it's weird having it back off of our bedroom, is that I feel like the people we would go and hang out in the hot tub know that this is not an entree into something else.

And people who might be confused about that, I don't necessarily want to get in the hot tub with them.

So, you know, I've just, I'm not sort of worried about

when you say entree, you're afraid that if you invite your friends after a little wine and cheese to get into a bathtub with you, that they might think that you want to hug and kiss them.

That's exactly right.

That's what I'm worried about.

Okay.

Is it that the hot tub deck is just the perfect place for it?

Why not compromise on this one thing, Josh, and put your

fire trap out in the yard?

Because I knew the cultural reference.

Yeah, but let's just say hypothetically,

you were a decent non-monster who cared about the other people in your life.

Oh.

Why is the yard an inappropriate place for a hot tub?

So

the thing that I like best about the side porch is actually that it's enclosed with a fence.

And I just, I like the idea of like being able to sort of keep that space off.

You know, sort of, I am worried about the fact that we've got kids.

So that way you can say, that way you can say to your guests, now I don't want you to get the wrong idea, but I'd like you to take off most of your clothes and come with me through my bedroom to a private soaking porch where no one can see what happens.

Exactly.

Okay, and how do you, you both are using your kids as weapons in this.

Courtney, you're afraid the kids are going to burn their their toes underwater.

And Josh, you're afraid that the kids are going to escape from your hot tub enclosure.

Unless it's in this high-walled hot tub tech?

Unless it's...

Well,

I think if it's off the kitchen, then it's just like, that's like where they are all the time.

They're out on the swing set, they're out playing.

Basically, the hot tub would be right next to where they are in the yard versus like.

How old are your kids?

So Mac is eight and Liam is six.

Now, look, I happen to know some people in Massachusetts, and I know someone who put in a pool, which is kind of a cool tub,

and there were some pretty heavy-duty laws about

fencing around the pool for child safety.

Are you aware of any regulations such as that with regard to installing a hot tub on your property?

I don't know of any laws, but I also like it makes sense that you'd want a a fence around it.

Well, right.

So wouldn't it be enough for you to build a fence around a fiberglass hot tub?

That's a nice project.

The building it wasn't the attractive part.

It was the product at the end.

And the product being having a wood-fired hot tub on a wooden deck surrounded by

tall wooden walls as close to your house as possible.

That's right.

That's the dream.

Okay, I think I've heard everything I need to hear.

I'm going to go through my tunnel into my enclosed and toasty baseball lodge, and I will sit in a bowl of my own juices, and I will come out with the correct decision in a moment.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

This is a question honestly for both of you, Courtney and Josh.

If it's like none degrees, which I think it often is in New England in the winter months, and you get out of the hot tub, do you just instantly turn into Iceman from the X-Men?

Yeah.

When it's that cold, you get out and you can feel the water start to freeze on your skin and your hair.

So you got to go quick.

I actually, one of my very favorite

trips where we were using the hot tub, my friends and I actually, our hair froze up above the hot tub because it was so cold outside.

We were nice and warm in the hot tub and our hair was completely frozen solid.

You know that sounds mental, right?

It was so much fun.

Courtney, how do you feel about your chances today?

You know, I'm not feeling as confident as I was coming in.

Josh made some good points, and I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Josh,

how do you feel about your chances?

Two-part question.

How do you feel about your chances?

And second part, tell me about the jets you're going to install into this thing.

Well, first part, I guess I'm feeling pretty good.

You know, and it's funny.

I think you need to elaborate.

Tell me about the jets.

What do you want to know?

Do you want to know where they're located?

What are we talking about here?

How many jets do we have?

I think it's one of those things when you're assembling yourself, you can have as many jets as you want.

You could take it up to 11 if you wanted.

Oh, wow.

What if you had more jet than wood?

Like, what if most of it was made up of jet, but then the wood kind of held the jets together?

This would be like the Dyson hot tub held in by some invisible jet of air or something.

Oh, yeah, that's a great idea.

Now we're talking.

Hover it over one giant jet that if you stick your foot in there, it gets chopped off.

Wow.

This is, I'm on your team now, Josh.

Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

You may be seated.

So,

you know, this court has to honor its obligations and the immediate summary judgment that Josh very frustratingly earned

and

find in his favor.

And it's painful.

It burns like when you put your foot on an underwater heating source

and yet the pain is mitigated to some degree by the fact that

I absolutely feel strongly that if I were to have a hot tub in my daily life

it would be a cedar hot tub traditional cedar hot tub

before I got one of those fiberglass things because those those things are molded to your body and they feel weird

and I don't think they're attractive and I don't like them.

And I think that there is no question

that there is something profoundly

romantic and wonderful

about lighting a fire, letting it heat up your hot tub that you had made with your own hands, sitting in it with the woman you love.

And let's be honest, that's that's the best thing for a hot tub.

Hot tubbing with friends, look, I know everyone gets into it.

I went over to an old friend's house and he had a hot tub.

And he said, you guys want to get in the hot tub?

And I'm like,

do I want to have to get in my bathing suit?

And he said, if you want to.

I'm like, oh.

Come on, Jonathan Colton, you said.

Yeah, come on, Jonathan Colton.

I didn't grow up in Connecticut.

I'm from Massachusetts.

We don't play that.

And

the truth is that this hot tub deck seems like the perfect place for it.

And I would imagine might satisfy some of the

legal requirements with regard to gating it off with regard to children.

I don't know if those requirements exist.

I am ordering you to investigate and comply with all of the law that is in your area.

And I especially am ordering you to consult.

You have a wood-burning fireplace in your home already.

Do I understand that correctly?

That's right.

Right.

I order you to consult with your local fire department about having an, adding an open fireplace on a deck next to your home.

If that is illegal, then real life law trumps all fake internet law.

I think what you're lucky to know that there are all kinds of, I've been looking them up, there are all kinds of traditional cedar hot tub kits that you can build that are not powered by wood, that are powered by alternate sources such as gas and electric.

If that is the safer way to proceed with a hot tub that close to your home, indeed barely almost concealed by your home,

then go with that.

And Courtney, I have this comfort to offer you, which is this.

Josh was going to do this anyway.

Someday you are going to go out.

Just as every time I have said to my family, no pets.

Petey was a wonderful cat, but he's dead now and I don't want to handle another creature's feces for the rest of my life.

And they all go, sure.

And then I go out of town on tour and then I come back and it's like, hey, guess what?

We have seven hamsters.

Or hey, guess what?

We took in a cat from a friend just for a little while and that cat never goes away.

And guess what I'm doing again?

Handling feces.

True story.

But just you could easily go out of town for whatever reason.

And Josh, you'd come home and Josh was be halfway done with it anyway.

The minute you get out of there, he's compelled to work on this project.

And you got a little project space.

So let him do it.

Sometimes this is what happens.

Someone wins the Electoral College, even though they didn't win the popular vote.

And even though there is no clear mandate,

you just got to let that person

do what they're going to do and show the world what a terrible idea it was.

The nice thing about having this enclosed hot tub deck is that the shame of a failed project, if it is a failed project,

will be something he will have to look at every day from the bathroom, and yet will be hidden from your neighbors by those high walls.

If it is not a failed project, you are going to enjoy a wonderful hot tub together, and he is going to be responsible for getting that thing going when you want to have a nice warm soak.

And what's more,

One year from completion of the hot tub project, if it's not to your liking, you get a fiberglass hot tub and you put that in the yard.

Then you've got two hot tubs.

You can be the most sensuous people in Massachusetts.

If you don't like everything about that thing, you can, there's nothing, you are already going to a place where you are transforming reality to fit your alpine ski dreams.

I see no reason why you shouldn't reject the monster.

who gamed the system to get his fire tub

and let let Ferris Bueller sit by himself while you, Alan Ruck, winner of the popular vote, Courtney, get your own

personal fiberglass hot tub for you and your friends.

But you got to wait a year.

You got to give a year after the finishing to see if you really want to have that in your life.

I'm sorry, Courtney.

Sometimes things don't go the way any of us want them to.

And Josh, I hope you're happy with yourself.

This is the sound of a gabble.

Judge John Hodgman rules.

That is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Courtney, how do you feel right now?

You know, I feel okay about it.

I do like the look of the cedar hot tub.

I'm a little more upset about having it have to be on the patio, but just means that our

youngest is going to be able to bring all of his bath time dinosaurs into the hot tub, and he'll be really happy.

Josh, how are you feeling?

I'm feeling happy.

Although now I'm with that bit at the end, I'm feeling like the pressure's on.

This has got to really happen now.

So I think more than anything, what Courtney and I needed was a little bit of a push to actually pick one of these things and do it.

So I think that that part of it's great.

Can I come over?

Yeah, up.

Do I have to bring my swim trunks?

We would provide a swim trunk.

Good community swim trunks.

Josh Courtney, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

You know, we've been doing My Brother, My Brother, me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while, maybe you never listened.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years, I know where this has ended up.

But no.

Nope, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So, how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lollum.

I'm Caroline Roper, and on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Another thrilling conclusion to another thrilling Judge John Hodgman case.

It is time to relax here in my chambers hot tub that is full of Diet Moxie.

Warmed to the perfect temperature.

And Jesse, it may look like I'm not wearing any clothes because my shirt's off, but just I am wearing my jeans.

That's how I like to do it.

No wonder the water in there has such a pronounced blue tint.

Shirts off, jeans, and tube socks.

That's how I hot tub.

That sounds nice.

That sounds enjoyable.

Well,

why aren't you getting right in with me?

That's okay, John.

I'm going to back slowly away from you.

But while I do, I'm going to mention we've got some live shows coming up.

Hang on, Jesse.

I have to say something to the listeners.

Yeah.

We're about to do some plugs for some shows.

Yeah.

Now, look, this is part of our, this is part of the business of listening to podcasts.

We usually put the plugs at the end so you can turn it off without listening to them.

But I want you to listen.

And here's the thing: here's a tease.

When we're done with these plugs, you're going to hear a surprise extra ruling with regard to Josh and Courtney.

They're not even around anymore.

But I'm going to lay down some more law on them.

And you're going to be, it's going to be legendary

in the court of Judge John Hodgman.

So listen up to these plugs and then stay tuned for the reversal.

Oh, let's go.

Okay, we're going to be at SF Sketch Fest in San Francisco January 13th, Friday the 13th at the Kern Theater.

I'm also bringing Jordan Jesse Go to San Francisco.

That's selfsame weekend.

It's going to be a great weekend to be at SF Sketchfest, the best comedy festival in the world.

You can find more information at maximumfun.org.

We are also going to be part of, speaking of great comedy festivals, Very, Very Fun Day in Chicago.

Maximum Fun is putting this on February 11th, Saturday.

It is 12 hours of comedy with one ticket.

The Flop House, Stop Podcasting Yourself, Jordan Jesse Go, Tights and Fights, and more.

More information at maximumfun.org slash very very fun day.

And tickets are selling out.

We also have tickets on sale right now for Max FunCon and Max FunCon East.

You can go to maxfuncon.com for more information on that.

And John, you're traveling around the country right now.

Yep, I just put some new live dates up on my tour page at johnhodgman.com slash tour.

You can find out about my getting tickets, free tickets, to go see my taping of At Midnight on January 16th.

I'm touring with the Boston Pops, presenting my new narration for Benjamin Britton's A Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra.

So take a listen to that, Long Hairs.

That'll be February 1 through 6th.

I'm going to be meeting our friend and expert witness, John Darnell, in Manhattan to talk about his amazing new book, Universal Harvester.

That's coming up on February 7th.

And of course, you can also get tickets for the Sketchfest, Live Judge Sean Hodgman, and links to all of the great Sketchfest shows, including Jordan Jesse Goh at Sketchfest and other shows that I'm doing.

And also tickets for Very Very Fun Day.

Now listen, we need cases for our live San Francisco show and for our Very Very Fun Day Chicago show.

So as always, if you have a case to submit, go to maximumfund.org slash JJ Ho.

And if you'd like to be considered to have your case heard live live on stage in san francisco chicago by all means say so if we choose your case to hear live on stage you get free tickets if you already bought tickets i'll give you a hug unless you know after you give me affirmative consent

and if you don't have swim trunks i'll give you a pair of mine

now before we go to the credits let me say this i've been re-examining this evidence this is highly irregular but i think we all agree this is a highly irregular shot hodgman case yeah

i re-examined the evidence.

I can't rule against this guy by my laws,

but I have looked at the two different patio settings again.

And I'm sorry, Josh is wrong.

That's a weird place to,

that enclosed hot tub porch off the bathroom is too claustrophobic, and I'm afraid it's just going to burn their whole house down.

So I am reversing without him even here.

Like an elector in the electoral college, I am resisting the mad whim of an unfettered populace and restoring sanity to the process, at least in this little thing.

He has to build the hot tub out on the deck in the backyard where Courtney wanted it.

So I hope you're listening, Josh.

That's what you get for being a Ferris Bueller in my courtroom.

I'm going to be better next time.

Thanks to Chris Kalafarski at the PRX Podcast Garage for helping us record this week's program.

Hey, good looking out, PRX.

How about a shout-out to my buddy Roman Mars running Radiotopia over there and hosting the great show 99% Invisible and all the other great shows there in Radiotopia, but mostly Roman.

Shout out.

You can follow us on social media at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman, as well as liking Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, joining the Maximum Fun group on Facebook, and joining us on Reddit at maximumfun.reddit.com.

Who named this week's episode?

This week's episode was named by Ann Mandola Jones, or Mandola Jones, or just Ann Jones.

Maybe we'll just leave it at that so that people don't start Googling her and making prank phone calls.

Oh, Ann Mandola Jones sounds like a great detective name.

Yeah, that's true.

You can name future episodes of Judge John Hodgman if you follow us on Facebook and on Twitter.

And again, if you've got a case for us, big or small, we take a look at them all.

MaximumFund.org JJ H O.

Thanks to our wonderful producer, Jennifer Marmor.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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