Exit, Stage Fright

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, Exit Stage Fright, Tom brings the case against his friend Trinity.

Trinity longs to be discovered and believes she was, quote, born for the theater, unquote.

Despite her enthusiasm for theater and performing, she refuses to try out community theaters.

He thinks she should get over her fear and go for it.

Who's right, who's wrong?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents the obscure cultural reference.

Why me?

Why, I was born for podcasting.

I was born for podcasting.

I was born for podcasting.

I was born for podcasting.

I was born for podcasting.

Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever

i do i do do you swear to abide by judge john hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he defines legitimate theater as productions that feature only judge john hodgman i do i do very well judge hodgman tom and trinity you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors and i am quite concerned you're going to get this one because i know you know it can you name the piece of culture that i referenced as i entered the courtroom trinity you have been brought to this court against your will, so you have the choice to either guess first or make Tom guess first.

Which will you do?

Well,

I have a feeling I know what it is, but I'm going to let Tom guess first.

All right.

That way you might get some information out of Tom's

erroneous guess, I'm sure.

Right, Tom?

Because you wouldn't guess correctly even if you knew.

and shut down this podcast before it even begins, would you?

There are certain superstitions and conventions of the podcast.

You don't say the names of certain plays.

You often talk in a completely bogus southern accent.

And you don't guess correctly, even if you know.

But you can if you really want to.

Well, I can tell you that I believe that I know, but I'm going to give you an out because I cannot remember the specific

podcast episode name.

I believe that you are quoting Andrew from the prior podcast who repeatedly stated that he was born for the theater.

And And if you had to guess the name, what would you guess?

Oh, goodness.

Wow.

I'm not that.

You don't have to make a meal of it here, Tom.

Chewing the scenery.

All right.

That's a good guess.

Trinity?

I know that it is from that podcast

because I have heard that he is born for the theater.

But I do not remember remember the specific name of it.

But I do know that the people on that podcast are responsible for possibly killing Judy Garland.

I appreciate your willingness to display such familiarity with this podcast.

You are both correct in identifying that this was a quote from an earlier podcast, but

the one guess that was made was wrong.

And I'm not going to make you come up with something, Trinity, just to say all guesses are wrong, because they would be.

All guesses would be wrong.

And you are not giving me an out, Tom,

by not remembering the name of the podcast.

That's just you not remembering a thing.

Especially since you quoted this line in your petition to this court, so you had to know that I was going to go back to it.

I did.

Specifically, episode number 151, sic semper dramatis from March of 2014,

in which one Texan brother, Will, brought another Texan brother, Andrew, to court, asking me to stop him from making scenes and acting like a reality TV star in public.

And Andrew, I challenged Andrew to say, I was born for the theater five different times, five different ways, and he blew me away.

And I'm thrilled to say we have him on the line right now as an expert witness.

Andrew, hello.

Hello, Judge.

How are you?

I'm feeling very hashtag blessed right now.

Ah, very good.

I'm glad to know that you're still you.

Yes.

So Andrew was undertaking all kinds of

brash stunts in his life, such as yelling at his brother, you're the reason.

What was it?

You're the reason.

You're the type of person who killed Judy Garland.

That's right.

His brother criticized his breakfast choice and also served him a martini that was 100% vermouth and also would say, and believed to be true, and I think it too.

He was born for the theater.

I can't believe it's been two years since you were on the podcast.

It feels like just yesterday.

What have you been doing these past two years, Andrew?

Oh, well, I graduated college and just been working, and I'm still waiting on my Faberge tie from my brother as well.

Two years later, he hasn't?

Bailiff Jesse?

Yes.

We got to get the internet law on him.

You know what we need is a sheriff.

We need a court sheriff to go out and enforce this stuff.

That seems like something John Roderick would be into.

Oh, my God.

I hear John Roderick starting up his motorhome right now.

If we gave him a wardrobe budget, I think we could get Roderick to do it.

What a thing that would be.

Well, I'm going to send John Roderick after your brother and make him buy you a Faberge tie as I ordered.

And if you don't understand what I'm talking about, y'all, just go back to episode 151.

And by the way, I said y'all because suddenly I'm from the South.

And you know something, Andrew?

I revisited that podcast today in preparation for this one, and it was such a fun one.

And I seem to recall saying that

you need need to be nicer to your brother and not scream at him all the time even as a joke but I take it back you scream at him okay I definitely will yeah since he hasn't given you that tie I'm I'm I'm rescinding all orders and you just be yourself because uh and are you are you you were going to look into getting into filmmaking or television in some capacity either in front of or behind the camera is that still a dream for you oh yes it is I'm looking into looking to apply to some post-production houses here in in Dallas.

Still debating whether to make the move to New York or LA

because I'm with the boyfriend, so we had to figure out what we're going to do once he graduates with his master's, and then we'll move from there.

So, but yes, I still want to.

What's he studying?

He's getting his master's in documentary filmmaking.

Oh, boy, you guys are going to be so poor.

I know.

I wasn't made for this life.

Production.

You were born for the theater, Andrew.

Yes.

Aren't you going to tread the boards?

I do hope so.

I do hope to finally make an appearance back on the stage and relive the glory of it.

I miss it so.

Well, I'm glad you're here because we have Trinity and Tom.

And the case, as I understand it, is that Tom and Trinity are friends.

Is that correct?

Yes.

Tom and Trinity.

That is correct.

And Tom believes that Trinity

should

take to the stage.

that she herself believes she was born for the theater, and yet she won't audition for any community theater, and Tom wants me to order her to become an actor.

Is that more or less right, Tom?

That is correct.

Okay.

And why do you think Trinity should be on stage?

Well, you know, I've known Trinity for a number of years now.

What number of years?

Specificity is the soul of numbers.

We initially met back in the late 90s when both of us worked at the American version of the Canadian House of Pizza and Garbage.

Oh, okay.

Where was this American Canadian House of Pizza and Garbage?

This was in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

And is that, were you guys college students at the time there?

Yes, we were.

All right.

And are you both from Michigan?

Yes.

All right.

And where are you now?

We are both still in Michigan.

I am in West Bloomfield, Michigan, which is about 30 miles northwest of Detroit.

Okay.

And Trinity?

I am in Riverview, Michigan, which is about 20 miles south of Detroit.

Okay.

And now,

so going back to the late 90s, you were both slinging flavored syrup at an undisclosed pancake structure.

And

you saw Trinity and you're like, she needs to be on stage.

Is that what you're going to say to me, Tom?

Or are you going to say a different thing?

No, it started then.

That was certainly the genesis of everything.

I noticed that she had a certain way.

She was a waitress at the time.

And

I noticed she had a certain way with the customers.

She entertained them mightily

and

entertained all of us back of the house workers as well, as a matter of fact, including she and her husband actually came in one day and did a full performance of a Weird Al Yankovic classic, which was tremendous.

And you may name the name of that song.

That was, oh, what's it called, Trent?

Oh, you think I'm going to help you?

You should.

Tom, you did not come prepared to the show.

Since you've been gone.

Since you've been gone, yeah.

A beautiful a cappella version of that song, which is an a cappella song.

Barbershop.

This was back in pancake days.

It was.

And so, Trinity,

you perform in the back of the house, it sounds like.

Yes, and in the front of the house, just for tips.

And this is a legitimate place.

You're very defensive.

Well, I was afraid of how it was coming across, how I performed for tips in the front and the back of the house.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

Maybe I missed something, and you still work for this pancake structure.

No, I do not.

Now, you have a different job now.

I do have a different job now.

You're a grown-up, so what is your grown-up job?

I am a hospice social worker.

Oh, that must give you a lot of opportunities to sing and dance.

It actually does.

You know what?

I said that as a joke, but as I was saying, I was like, oh, you know what?

I bet there's something there.

I mean, first of all, it's very noble work, and thank you for doing it.

And do you have singing and dancing opportunities in the hospice?

I do.

I sing to many of my patients.

And I go into a number of nursing homes, and I get the opportunity to entertain when they have activities and things going on there.

So I have an outlet for all of this pent-up theater stage need.

I do have an outlet for it.

It sounds like you focused on performance situations where the audience either cannot or it would be very difficult for the audience to escape.

Correct.

Got it.

I prefer people in booths or wheelchairs.

Got it.

Do you love musicals, Trinity?

I do.

I have

a love of musicals, yes.

And

Tom says you go and see a bunch of them?

Yeah, I have,

usually about once a year, I try to go to New York City to see one actually on Broadway.

And then I also do catch them, different ones when they come through Detroit.

Thank you, Trinity, for clarifying that you usually go to New York City and not New York State.

Although I hear the musicals are super good in Schenectady.

You're welcome.

And Tom did send in as well some photo evidence

of you in New York City hands in the air, ecstatic in Times Square and in front of the Copacabana.

Yeah.

What's the Copacabana?

I don't even know what Copacabana is.

Is that what I'm supposed to be looking at in this picture?

I'm very happy that you asked about the Copacabana.

The picture under the Copacabana, that's there for a reason, is that Tom and I do a lovely karaoke version of Barry Manlow's Copa Cabana.

What he is not sharing with everybody is that he too is a wonderful singer, and we do a fantastic rendition of this song.

When I saw the Copa Cabana, I actually bolted across the street and made my girlfriend take that picture just so I could send it to him.

So you're saying that Tom is trying to force you on the stage because he has his own ambition to be on the stage, and he's too scared to do it.

I believe that Tom has an ulterior motive for getting me up on

a stage.

And that motive is that he wants to be on stage himself?

Absolutely.

Tom, how do you respond to this accusation?

That you are stage-mothering Trinity in order to get attention for yourself.

I respond very strongly that

I've been in community theater and I'm not afraid to do it.

I've done it a number of times myself.

It's not in many years, but I was never really an actor.

I was never really a dancer, especially the dancing part.

It is true that I have

in the past had a good enough voice to participate in community theater musicals.

I'm not so sure about it anymore.

Well, why don't you do a couple of lines of Copa Cabana and then we'll

agreed!

That's not my strongest song.

I'm ordering you to do it.

All right.

Let's see here.

Her name was Lola.

She was a showgirl.

With yellow feathers in her hair and her dress cut down to there.

That's all you're going to give us?

That's a couple lines.

Andrew?

Yes.

What do you think?

Is Tom going to Hollywood?

You know,

we'll have to just see.

It's very possible.

You've got to sing out, Tom.

You've got to sing out.

I think the problem is that he's not singing with me.

Yeah.

He sounded a little thin and reedy and hesitant.

And Tom, I just think, like, you know, in a competition like this, you have to really want it.

But I'm going to say yes.

I'm going to give him a chance at the end of the podcast and see if he can do better at the next audition.

Andrew, is that a yes or a no?

Yes, yes.

Bailiff Jesse?

Well, we've got two out of three, so Bailiff Jesse, you can be mean if you want.

Yeah, I mean,

I think Tom should focus on other endeavors.

Still, that's two out of three, Tom.

You get to remain on the podcast.

His voice is pretty good, Trinity.

His voice is lovely.

He wants you to do community theater.

And do you have an opposition to that because it is community theater?

No,

not just because it's community theater.

I'm shy.

It does not seem that way.

My...

See, I'm so busy.

It's clear that we're standing on shifting sands here.

Yeah.

I don't have time for evasions.

Okay.

I know you have a full-time job that is meaningful, but you start out by saying I'm shy.

That's, I think, what we call in the fake law business a crux that we have found.

You have been singing since your

international structure of pancakes days.

Yes.

You do, I think, probably what is the least shy thing I can imagine, imagine, which is to speak frankly and respectfully about a very difficult subject, that is to say, death, with people who are approaching it.

So, what about being on stage specifically makes you nervous?

And you're also you do this karaoke, which we're going to, again, this is a tease.

Stay to the end of the episode, y'all, because it's going to be good.

But you get on stage regularly with your friends, obviously, with the aid of alcohol.

Are you having a couple of drinks, a little liquid courage before you do your karaoke?

If I drink during karaoke, it is not as good.

I'm better sober.

I'm one of those very rare, sober, karaoke people.

Oh, good for you.

You're facing down an audience without any

mood adjustment whatsoever.

So tell me what it is about the prospect of auditioning for

and perhaps getting a role in a community production of hairspray

or what have you that makes you try to lie right you know you say the first thing and then you lie about being too busy like you're lying to me right now in real time what is the feeling that you're feeling um i my my biggest worry is being up there on a stage with other people depending on me and i screw up i drop the ball something happens and i have a bunch of people counting on me depending on me and and i make it so that it becomes a flop

I, you know, I just all the other stuff you're doing is solo.

A lot of it, it's not completely solo, but when I'm in yeah, but it's like maybe you're singing with your dumb husband or whatever.

Right, right, maybe,

maybe.

Or my dumb best friend up on a stage.

Yeah, that one too.

But it's also sort of like it's you're you're worried about letting down other people.

Right.

It's very hard when you're dependent on other people doing their job well for you to do your job well.

And I think that I'm always concerned that I want to put forth you know my best self and I want to be able to perform very well for someone and I would absolutely feel horrible if I was standing up there and there's people that are watching us perform and people who've put in their passion for it and and I drop the ball making it so that other people

don't get the best experience.

Has this happened in your life?

I have not dropped the ball, but I've had other people drop the ball for me, and I know how that feels.

How did someone drop a ball for you?

Well, you know, like when I work, I'm dependent on other people doing their job to do mine.

And when I go into a situation and something isn't followed through the way that I may need it to be, so I have to try to fix it in a very high stress situation.

It

not only does it put the burden on me, which I have no problem with, but it also makes the people that are observing it or who are experiencing it, it makes them uncomfortable.

So I feel like a lot of my everyday existence is making people feel comfortable.

And I honestly, I would hate to make it so that people don't feel that way.

But you're presuming that that's inevitable on some level.

You're absolutely right.

I go out there and I empower people every day, but for some reason I believe that I'm going to get up there and I'm going to forget, you know, something or a cue or I'm going to

trip and fall and or something's going to happen.

A phone's going to ring out in the audience and I'm going to get distracted.

I haven't thought about all these problems, not once at all.

Oh, yeah.

You got me.

Trinity found her own crux right there.

She really has some profound self-knowledge.

Yes.

Tom, why do you feel it is necessary?

She knows all this stuff about herself.

She's making a decision as an adult

to

be a a fready cat about this and

not undertake what you have in mind for her, which is your weird stage mothery, high-pressured desire to see her community theater stage.

Why can't she make this decision for herself, or why is she making the wrong decision for herself?

Well, I think that any time that a decision in general is made on

just fear of screwing up or something sort of

very intangible like that when it's not likely at all.

I think that's the wrong decision to make.

Or even if it is, I mean, it's not, what she's talking about is not unheard of.

People make mistakes on stage all the time.

Yeah, but with her, I think it's a little bit different.

I've seen Trin perform so many times, and I've,

frankly, I can't think of a single time where I have ever seen her screwed up.

And

another point is that there is this culture in community theater, at least the group that I was with for a brief period of time, where if you screw something up, which I have done on stage,

somebody is there to pick you up.

Somebody else will be there to help you out, to cue you, to push it along.

And you know what?

The other thing that I've noticed is audiences really don't notice

that sort of dropped line every once in a while or a missed note.

They're there for the entire experience.

They're there for the entire experience of seeing their dentist sing a song from the music man.

The other cast are there to support you and catch you.

And also, on some level, the audience doesn't care or just doesn't notice because they don't know what's going on behind the scenes.

Guess what?

That's also true about every other kind of theater.

Broadway theater.

Andrew.

Yes.

You've been listening to Trinity.

I have.

You find any cruxes cruxes in there?

I think I do.

I think I do.

It's the one thing about the stage, it's a team effort.

So like they were saying, if something does go wrong, you just keep on going.

The show must go on.

Yeah.

Have you ever had an experience where something went horribly wrong on stage?

Yes, actually.

It wasn't me performing it, but we were doing

Hamlet,

and I was on stage at the time playing Osrick.

And during the fencing scene, one of the swords just collapsed.

And the actor playing Hamlet just shouted out at an instant, Horatio, sword.

And they threw a sword across stage and they kept fencing.

And no one noticed.

It was beautiful.

You finally fixed Hamlet.

It sounds like.

Tom, do you feel that Trinity's happiness is being held back by her fear?

I do.

I do think that.

That was a pretty leading question, I have to say.

I was really handing that to you because you were so poorly prepared.

I have to help you.

Yeah, I do think that her happiness is being held back by her fear.

I think that...

Do you have any evidence of that, sir?

My evidence is that I've seen her perform, and every time I've seen her perform, she has been incredibly happy.

She has always

had an audience adore her.

I've never seen an audience not love her when she performs.

And she feeds off that energy.

The audience feeds off her return energy, and everything is wonderful.

Trinity.

Yes.

Tom accuses you of feeling a special kind of happiness when you perform.

Can you concur?

How would you describe the happiness you feel when you perform?

And don't mess up as you are obviously prone to do.

Well, I'm a naturally happy person, but when I'm performing, it is.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Did you say you're a naturally happy person?

Yes.

Oh, no, no.

Then you should never get on stage.

Right, Andrew?

No happy people in the arts, please.

Please, yes.

I mean, we all saw what happened to poor Judy Garland, how miserable she was.

Oh, I know.

But she was a star.

I know she wasn't.

She'll live forever in the stars.

Trinity doesn't even drink during karaoke.

No.

How can she become a great drug addict child star like Judy Garrow and then

die crushed and forgotten at an early age?

I don't know.

She might have taken the Myrna Loy route and do it in the good way.

Myrna Loy.

Yeah, I was just watching The Thin Man again.

I was too.

Oh my god.

This is why you two are best friends.

The psychic connection.

The Thin Man is my second favorite movie that sounds like the third man after the third man.

Myrna Lloyd, boy.

So, well, how did she end up?

I didn't know that she took a.

What was the route that she took?

She took the, what I need to read her biography, but from what I gandered from it is that she actually took the very

good route, and she actually didn't do much compared to what some of the other stars in her day did.

Yeah, she took care of herself and did everything her way, but that made her successful without having to

put down herself in the process.

She is a sober karaoke performer.

Yeah.

Right.

Tom, is there a particular community theater production that you have earmarked for Trinity to audition for?

Should I find in your favor?

Well, I have scoped out several of the local community theater groups via the internet, and

it turns out that the

audition season for this year's musicals, which are generally performed during the summers, are are

it's past.

So this is pointless.

Well, no, I find in your favor, Trinity.

Goodbye, all of you.

Thank you.

But they have not set their schedules.

What will you have?

I gotcha.

You prepared poorly again.

I get it.

Bad timing is the hallmark of a good stage artist.

Someone throws you a sword, you try to catch it next week.

With my chest, yes.

But But if I were to find in your favor, Tom, what would you have me order then?

I would have you order that Trin.

She can choose the musical.

I don't mind that.

She can even choose the group.

But I would ask that you order her to perform or audition for a community theater musical within the next two years.

No, next season.

Next season is fine.

I have no problem with that.

I was trying to give her a little more leeway, but that works for me as well.

What are the musicals that are being performed this season that she's already missed out on?

This season, there were.

Oh, I didn't make notes of these.

Why am I even asking you questions?

Trinity,

I want you to forget about your stage fright for a second here.

Okay.

And I want you to imagine

a musical that you would love to perform in.

Okay.

And

it can be Hamilton or anything.

Oh.

I would pick Hamilton in a New York minute.

Right.

Because I could be helpless.

I could never be satisfied.

I don't want to throw away my shot.

It sounds like you really are throwing away your shot, though.

I know.

But for Hamilton, for Hamilton, I'd make an exception.

So that's the one you would make an exception.

Because I guarantee you, there are going to be a lot of community productions of Hamilton in the next year.

Absolutely.

and it will be interesting to see them

so let's say for the sake of argument there is

oh you know you change your mind now no I meant community theater wise Hamilton I can't I can't rap that fast yeah no no no no you can't you can't be on

Broadway Hamilton absolutely

they have everyone they need yes baby steps

and they've already announced the Tony Awards so you know I want to I want to have a shot at that.

You do.

You want to have a shot at winning a Tony?

Man.

Yes.

How do you expect that's going to happen?

My good looks, my charm.

Wait a minute.

You're afraid and uncomfortable with the idea of getting up on stage in a community theater.

So you think you're going to go to New York.

And someone's just going to look at you and say, you know what, kid?

You got it.

You don't even have to work for it in community theater.

You don't have to take acting lessons.

You don't have to take singing lessons.

You've got it.

You just were born with it.

And I'm not even going to make you perform.

Here's a Tony.

Who do you think you are?

John Hodgman with that delusion?

That would be the best case scenario.

That would just prove that maybe I was born for the theater and didn't have to work for it.

You just think you had, when you say you're born for the theater, you're born for the theater in the same way uh rob stark is born to inherit uh uh winter fell

thank you thank you tom you got that one i like that little hang yes

you you want fame but you don't want to work for fame oh debbie allen would be mad

oh no i don't want to make debbie allen mad see the thing i have to determine here

is you i think you are a happy person

but i have to determine whether or not

your

unwillingness to audition for community theater in Michigan, which I think would be the next logical step for you,

whether your unwillingness to do that is a conscious choice towards your own happiness or whether it is a reflective choice out of fear that is keeping you from reaching an even happier level.

And Trinity,

which do you think it is?

You're the one who lives in your body.

Is it a conscious choice of happiness, or is it a fearful choice that is keeping you from a new level of happiness?

Those are options A or B, and I'm just going to let you say which one you want to say.

I will say that's probably

fear.

Yeah.

It is.

I asked you to say A or B, but I'm going to watch.

B.

I'm sorry.

B.

You know what?

You got to learn to take direction.

So then the only thing left

is to determine whether you've got what it takes.

Because the thing is that if, let's say you had said, A, no, it's a conscious decision.

I'm happy with the decision.

I have a full and complete and fulfilling life.

And I don't have time.

And

I don't wish to go through the process of getting through the fear that I have about being on stage.

I'm fine.

You could have said that, or you could have said, I'm just too scared.

But then we would have to go to the videotape no matter what to see

whether you're good enough to bother overcoming your fear,

or or B, because I love my A's and B's,

whether despite your conscious decision of happiness, your talent is compelling, so compelling that what you care about doesn't matter, you have to do it anyway,

right?

Andrew,

I agree.

Are you following me on this?

Andrew, you have any stage fright tips?

You're not a person who's afraid of being out in the world making scenes.

Correct.

I will say every so often the butterflies would occur, and I would be anxious about appearing on stage.

I could never eat before performing, otherwise, I would get sick.

But as soon as you get on that stage, it all magically starts to disappear, and you just start going with everything, and it's magic.

You know, there's something in what you say.

Having, I have not,

you know, the only on-stage performance I've done typically is, you know, stand-up and storytelling.

But

there is a kind of magic that occurs, and you must have felt it doing even karaoke.

Like, what's the feeling you have when you're belting it out at Sober Karaoke?

Oh, it's wonderful.

Yeah.

Do more describing.

Well,

I prefer it when there's more people there.

I prefer it when

I feed off the energy, and it's just so much fun.

And you know, the

video that Tom sent in, I didn't realize it was going to be on an audition video, but it was

so much fun.

You think I don't have a flair for the dramatic?

It's, oh, I know you do.

Right.

You think this wasn't going to end with us listening to that?

Having me and Andrew and

Philip Jesse voting for whether you're going to go to Hollywood?

Oh,

well, I will say that.

But here's the thing.

Here's what I'm going to ask you.

Like,

you've made mistakes in your songs that you're singing.

Yes.

But there have probably been times when you feel like you can't possibly make any mistakes.

Sure.

Right?

I mean,

what I've discovered in my experience of live performance and taped performance

is that

adrenaline kicks in, and your body and your brain, reptilian portions of your brain, prevent you from messing up too badly.

Your body doesn't want you to fail.

Your brain doesn't want you to fail.

And while people do make mistakes and that sort of thing, I think more often, and Andrew, you can tell me, this is sort of what I feel like you were describing, more often fear kind of goes away and your body just says, and I think it's a survival mechanism as much as anything else.

Don't worry about this unconscious brain.

We got this.

Yes, I would definitely agree.

The unconscious does,

whenever I would go on, would take over me, they'd just start following the cues, hitting my lines, and getting the blocking done and everything.

It was just, it all just comes together.

It all just comes together.

You hear that, Trinity?

Oh, yeah.

And

what's your middle name?

Oh,

my middle name is Star.

Yes.

Oh,

that's hitting low.

Look, for once, Tom got his acts together and sent me some information that I could use.

You know,

you just have, let's say, a non-traditional first and middle name, Trinity Star.

What was going on with your parents?

I come from a sturdy Irish Catholic background.

My high school girlfriend's name was Trinity Rose, and her sister's name was Liberty Star.

Whoa.

I just got an email from both of them, Jesse.

They're watching The Thin Man right now.

Trinity, of course, I should think of that as that's a Catholic name for sure.

But star is that, like, what's going on there?

That was my mom's middle name, so she passed it on to me.

And I did not have any girl children, so I wasn't able to pass it on to my girls, but my sister did.

And my sister's daughter has that middle name, so it's being passed along.

Do you have boy children?

I have boy children.

Yes, I do.

She has two, two, Martin and Ringo.

Well, yeah, so

I think you see where I'm going.

Normally I would wait until

after I deliberate in chambers to make my verdict, but I think it's pretty clear.

You don't want to be a mom who looks to her boys and say, I always dreamed of being on Broadway, but I was too scared to get up on stage in Detroit.

Couldn't quite bring myself to audition for that production of, I can only assume a live version of an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

I think that's over 75% of all community theater productions in 2016.

If you're lucky, it's that one musical episode.

So, my verdict, I think it's pretty clear, you're going to do this if and only if

you have what it takes.

So,

I'm going to, Andrew.

Oh, no.

Oh, yes.

Andrew, pull your earphones on even tighter.

Okay.

And I am going to

put on my t-shirt with very short sleeves, a very tight black t-shirt,

and drink some product placement.

And we're all going to watch this audition.

We'll play a...

a shortened version of it now, but you can check out the whole thing online.

And

I'm going to just open my chamber's doors so I can enjoy this with you guys.

And we'll take a shower.

railway.

All right, here comes the fast part.

I like the good child in the city.

Working for the bed every night and a day.

And I never lost one minute and a sleep bed.

Worry by the way,

Tom,

yes, sir.

Did you take this video?

I did.

Yeah, you did a terrible job.

I realize.

I think I've heard everything I need to make my decision.

Bailiff Jesse, I'm going to slip into chambers for a little bit so that we can take a message break.

And when we come back from the message break, Andrew and you and I will determine whether or not Trinity is going to Detroit.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Tom?

Yes, sir.

It sounds like this is all going to come down to a vote upon the judge's return.

How do you think Trinity is going to do?

I think Trinity is going to do incredibly well because I've heard that video and seen it several times and I know how impactful it is and I know how good she is in it.

How about you, Trinity?

You think you've got what it takes?

Do you want to have what it takes?

Well, I do have what it takes.

Wow.

Okay, cool.

It better be.

Hey, Tom, I've got a question.

Just while we got a six-digit audience listening,

I don't like to use this space to plug my own career, but I just want to let all of the regional theater directors who might be listening, and I'm going to include local Los Angeles community theater directors know that while I'm very proud of my success as a podcaster and public radio host and my

multiple small-scale failures as a television host,

I would like to publicly make myself available to play Professor Harold Hill in any productions of The Music Man nationwide.

Here's my standards.

I've thought about this a lot.

I'm willing to go to New York and stay at Hodgman's house.

I'm willing to stay here in Los Angeles and do almost any real production of The Music Man.

And I'm willing to travel anywhere in the lower 48 states for a paying job in The Music Man.

And you can use my name to sell tickets.

It just won't work.

So that's the standards that I'm offering to everyone.

You know how to get in touch with me at Jesse Thorne.

We're going to take a quick break.

When we come back, we'll find out whether Trinity is going to make it all the way to the legendary stages of the Motor City.

Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course.

Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at maximumfund.org, and they are all your favorites.

If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic.

Just go to maximumfund.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Made In.

Let me ask you a question.

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The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Quince.

Jesse, the reviews are in.

My new super soft hoodie from Quince that I got at the beginning of the summer is indeed super soft.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

You may be seated.

Andrew,

Bailiff Jesse, you both heard Trinity's audition tape.

What do you think?

Is she going to go all the way to Detroit, Michigan?

Andrew, what's your take?

You know what?

I think so.

I think

you'll be swell.

You'll be great.

You're going to have the whole world on your plate.

Starting here, starting now.

Honey, everything's coming up, roses.

Oh, it was so hard for me not to sing along.

I heard you trying, but Andrew wasn't letting you.

I tried so hard.

That's a big old yes from Dallas.

Bailiff Jesse, what's your ruling?

I am surprised, my dear, to see

you here

singing Proud Mary at karaoke night.

Sorry, that's the only song from

my specialty, which is Professor Harold Hill in the Music Man, that I could turn into a topical reference to your performance.

I say, watch out Detroit, Michigan, or possibly the suburbs of Detroit, Michigan, because here comes Trinity.

All right, that's another big yes.

I guess there's nothing I can say because it's going to to happen, but I'm throwing my vote in.

Yes, you're going to Detroit.

Yay!

What I really, there are two things that I really hoped for.

One was that you were going to present as someone who had made a considered decision in your life

that you didn't want to be on stage, and

that I would then play that, and I would say to you, you have no choice, you have to be.

Because

I have to say,

that was a pretty compelling performance of a not easy song, and you crushed it.

The other thing I wished after these two guys sang is that I could have, in the moment, come up with an appropriate Hamilton song to turn into a Congratulations Trinity song.

But

I am no Lynn Manuel Miranda.

I don't freestyle.

Hi, Lynn, if you're listening.

Hi, Lynn.

Let's just stipulate that we've all said hi to Lynn Manuel Miranda.

Andrew Nassen.

Hello.

And Tom's going to be there in just a few short months to see him live on stage.

That's true.

Tom is?

Yes.

Yes.

But not you?

No, he's taking his wife.

Bogus, Tom.

Give your tickets to the star.

Order him to do that, please.

Thank you.

I'll tell you what, Tom.

I'll let you keep your tickets.

If you pass this next audition, you

we saw you in Royal Oak or wherever it is you are now.

Now we're here at the final audition.

We've squeaked by

with two yeses and a no.

Are you going to be able to keep your tickets to go to Hamilton or are you going to have to give them to Trinity?

This is the new game that I've just made up.

The only way for you to win is to get two yeses again.

No, you have to get three yeses.

You got to really crush it.

All right.

This is the big time.

What am I singing?

Take a minute.

Take a minute.

Don't jump into it.

Am I singing Copa Cabana again?

Unless you prepared something else.

Yeah, I mean, you said that wasn't your strongest song, and that was apparent from your rendition of it.

So

maybe you could go to your strength here.

Now I'm afraid if I go to my strength, it will be weak, but that's okay.

I will try anyway.

All right.

Fly me to the moon and let me sail among the stars.

Let me see what spring is like on Jupiter and Mars.

In other words, hold my hand.

In other words,

baby, kiss me.

Well, at least we know that Tom isn't cheating by using like

a tuning fork or something like that to get his first note.

That was great, Tom.

That was fantastic, Tom.

Is that a yes from you, Jesse?

Does Tom get to go to Hamilton?

Yes, Tom does get to go to Hamilton.

I think he should, like me, though, in the future, focus on speak-singing roles.

I should have wrapped.

Yeah.

You should have done something from Hamilton.

I'm not going to let Andrew in on this

because I'm afraid Andrew is going to be like, what am I hearing?

Andrew is not one to be nice.

and to withhold what's on his mind.

So

I'm going to preempt you, Andrew, and just say, yes, even though your Kobukabana was actually stronger.

That's fair.

I can't, in good conscience, take your Hamilton tickets away from you.

Matt Fraction and Kelly Sue DeConic flew across the country with stub hub tickets that were denied at the door.

And that was like, I couldn't breathe when I heard that news.

So,

Andrew, but Andrew, now that I voted yes and you can speak plainly without any repercussions, what was your take on?

What's your feeling about Tom and his future as a singer?

Yes.

I would say that under the appropriate preparations, I think Tom

should join Trinity on the stage in the next musical production auditions for.

You're giving him a yes?

Wait, I don't know.

You have to understand that he's already got two yeses.

That's true, but he needs three, correct?

No, no.

Oh, that's right.

He needed unanimity.

I did say that.

Ah, yes.

I'm taking that back.

You can say what you feel.

He's going to go to Hamilton no matter what.

That's true.

That's true.

I would say,

you know.

Oh, this is a hard one.

Tell him how you feel.

Or I will.

I would say.

Let me put it this way, Andrew.

Yes.

Between these two performers,

my instinct is there is one that should not be concerned about stage fright and one that should.

You know, I would agree.

I would agree with that.

I think so.

I mean, I think what you were saying is under the right conditions, Tom probably can do it,

but

he was spooked.

Yes, a little spooked from the

podcast.

You ain't got it, kid.

You ain't got it, Tom.

That's all right with me.

Trinity's got it.

I agree.

This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Trinity, how do you feel?

I feel okay.

I feel pretty good.

I'm apparently going to be on the stage.

So I'll let you know how it goes.

Trinity, I believe in you.

Oh, thank you.

And I believe you'd be great in the music man.

Thank you very much.

Now, Tom, I don't believe in you, Tom.

How are you feeling?

Yeah, I don't blame you.

I feel fine, except for those embarrassing musical performances I just did.

I knew, you know, afterwards, I knew I should have gone with one of my signature rap songs from karaoke.

Tom, I can assure you that you definitely should not have done that.

And I think that you had lovely tone, and I think that you would have turned in a wonderful performance had you had preparation and accompaniment.

So thank you so much for being willing to walk out onto that ledge before I pulled the ground out from underneath you.

And

thank you to both of you and to you, Andrew, for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

That's it for this week's Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Remember, we are going on tour in the northeast, heading all the way from New England down to Washington, D.C., and thence to London, England for the London Podcast Festival, where Judge John Hodgman Hodgman will be joined by the Max Fun podcast International Waters, Bullseye with Jesse Thorne.

Hey, that's me.

And of course, the Beef and Dairy Network.

You can find all of those.

You know, we've been doing My Brother, My Brother, Me for 15 years.

And

maybe you stopped listening for a while.

Maybe you never listen.

And you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years.

I know where this has ended up.

But no.

No, you would be wrong.

We're as shocked as you are that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah.

You don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's learn everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined!

No, no, no, it's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lum.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Tour dates online at maximumfun.org.

Just look in the right-hand side.

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Thank you to the two of them.

If you would like to name a future case of Judge John Hodgman, make sure you're tapped in with us on social media.

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