Anecdontal Evidence

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.

I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

This week, anecdotal evidence.

Bob brings the case against his fiancée, Alessandra.

They have a no-boring stories policy in their home.

Now, Alessandra wants an exception for stories about the workplace.

Should they change the rules?

Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom.

When that Aprilist with his showers swoot, the drought of March hath pierced to the root and bathed every vein in such liquor, of which virtue engendered is the flower, when Zephyrus Eke, with his sweet breath, inspired hath in every holt and heath the tender crops, and the young sun hath in the ram his half-course run, and noble bailiffs melodi, and shutten all the holes of pie.

Bailiff Jesse, swear them in.

Please rise, raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

So help you, God, or whatever?

I do.

I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that in the one case that someone dared to attempt to present to him a boring anecdote at a social gathering, he killed them using mind power?

I do.

Yes.

Very well, Judge Hodgman.

Bob and Alessandra, you may be seated.

For an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favor, I'm going to ask you now to guess

the origin of the cultural reference that I made as I entered the courtroom.

Alessandra, you are the defendant.

You are responding to the complaint of Bob, your fiancé, who says you are boring.

As you are in the defending position, you may choose to guess or make Bob guess first, which will you do?

Hold on, Judge Hodgman.

What?

I have a guess, and I'm going first this week.

But this is unprecedented, Bailiff Jesse.

I'm just excited.

I know the answer.

Well, it's Porky's.

Is it not Porky's?

No, it's not Porky's.

Nor is it Porky's 2.

Back to Porkies.

I can't remember what the tagline for Porky's 2 was.

Those are loathsome films.

I think it was Porky's 2, The Search for Curly's Gold.

That might have been it.

But you're giving information to the litigants that they should not have.

Sorry, Jesse.

Sorry.

Bailiff, bailiff, thyself.

I just got so excited because I knew the answer, but it turns out I didn't know the answer.

Alessandra, do you want to take a guess first, or do you want to make Bob guess first?

I'll guess first.

All right.

Okay, I think it's from the Canterbury Tales.

Bob,

that is Alessandra's guess.

What guess do you guess?

I really have no clue.

I feel like there's some sort of Porky's hint.

I can't decipher it.

I'll say it's from the book of Genesis.

Oh, okay.

Ah, you've deciphered my hint.

I don't get it.

One guesses

is wrong.

And one guesses is correct.

Infuriatingly to me.

I had a a feeling one or both of you might get a good guess on this one because you both have masters of fine arts and creative writing.

Is that not so, Alessandra?

That is.

Yeah, that's true.

Right.

And Alessandra, you guessed correctly.

It is true.

I was quoting

Chaucer's Canterbury's Tales.

Can you tell me what part?

The beginning.

That's right.

The beginning, the general prologue.

Alessandra, you've got this thing down.

There's no way to actually weasel out of this one.

Judge Hodgman, I don't need to interrupt here,

but I have to interrupt again.

All right.

Alessandra had her toe on the line.

It's a fault.

No, no,

I will not back off this one.

I will not weasel out of it.

The last time I did, someone on the internet got very mad at me.

And you know how that makes me feel.

Was it John McEnroe?

It wasn't.

It was a listener who said, stop.

When people guess, they should just win the case, because it feels like you are robbing them of their victory when you say, no, I wasn't actually quoting Chaucer's Canterbury's Tales, the general prologue.

I was quoting Garrison Keillor quoting it from A Prairie Home Companion in 1986, which was my planned weasel out because I read that on Wikipedia that Garrison Keillor opened a show in 1986 by quoting that same part.

I'm not going to do it.

I'm going to listen to the listener for once and say, Alessandra, immediate summary judgment in your favor.

Teresa from Schmanner's, our expert witness.

I'm sorry you didn't get a chance to speak because the podcast is over.

Goodbye.

Truth is, we drugpoured Teresa all the way over to MaxFun HQ.

I've moved from my chambers in Park Slope over to

some weird part of Brooklyn called, I think, Clinton Hill.

Is that right, Josh?

Yeah.

Here in the studios of Angry Lamb Studios with Josh at all the pedals and dials.

And

I guess we'll have to hear this case and see if the summary judgment holds.

Is that fair to you guys, Bob and Alessandra?

Yeah, it is for me.

Yeah, right.

Allie actually has the beginning of Canterbury Tales memorized in Middle English, so she could have done all the technicalities if she needed to.

How is my pronunciation of the weird words?

It was beautiful.

Thank you.

You win the case again.

How much Beowulf can you do?

No, I'm not a huge nerd.

I promise it was an assignment.

I was sitting around.

Do you, do you have?

You're one of those jocks that's always memorizing the Canterbury tales.

Do you actually have the general prologue memorized, Alessandra?

Yeah.

Let's hear it.

Give me some.

Vanda Opple with a shower, suche.

Keep going.

That's all I can do if you're not.

Yeah, no.

Just that first line?

You don't do the second line?

I can do more, but you might have to pay me some to put it on the air.

Well, you know what?

I'm going to revoke the immediate summary judgment because you won't do what I said.

And that will give us license to go forward.

Sorry, person on the internet who gets upset when I do that.

So, Bob, you bring Alessandra to court because you have a policy in your home that you share.

Is that correct?

You share it?

Yes.

Right.

And the policy is no boring conversation.

Is that correct?

Yep, that's correct.

Right.

If someone starts telling a story and the other person finds it boring, that person just says boring and that's the end.

Is that how it works?

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

The other person can continue to tell the story, and then person B will just keep saying boring, boring until they stop

or they'll just stop paying attention, basically.

Well, this sounds like fun, Alessandra.

You wish to change the terms of this contract to admit stories from your work.

Is that correct?

Yeah.

All right.

And what is your work?

I work in insurance.

In insurance.

And I'm sure you have some

thrilling stories from your office of insurance.

Oh, yeah, I have some really great ones.

What's your like number one actuarial table?

I want to get to Teresa, so we can't do any actuarial tables at the moment.

I will want to hear some of your office stories in the future, but we do have a very special expert witness,

very

apt witness for this particular case, because she is the co-host of the terrific Maximum Fun podcast known as Schmanners, and her name is Teresa McElroy.

Hello.

Hello, John.

How are you?

I am well.

How are you?

I'm well also.

Now, before we go further, will you explain to the few listeners who are not familiar with your podcast, what is Schmanners all about?

Certainly.

My husband Travis and I, we discuss and deliberate extraordinary etiquette for ordinary occasions.

Right.

So I will, we choose a topic often suggested by our listeners, and I will research the historical and cultural significance of the etiquette associated with that topic, and then we discuss how that applies to our daily lives today.

Now, and then you'll tell Travis why he shouldn't eat with his hands like a pig at a trough.

Travis often confides that there are several areas where I have helped him already with his manners.

So you are the the co-host.

Travis is the other host.

He is not here, correct?

Correct.

And is that considered rude to blow off a friend's podcast like that?

If I might be quite honest, he is allowing me to shine in this area.

Well,

you do not need his permission to shine.

Go garbage with your hands, Travis.

You need to be given the opportunity.

I really appreciate it.

Anyone who doesn't listen to this podcast is a fool.

That's what I'm saying.

And everyone who does listen to this podcast knows who the star of it is.

Go eat garbage with your hands, Travis.

Talking to your wife now.

Sorry if that's rude.

Well, I appreciate it.

You've heard Bob and Alessandra.

Just as a baseline, let's set a baseline.

What is good manners?

What is the point of good manners?

And how, so that we can use that to guide our conversation today?

Well, as far as manners in general go, it's about everyone getting along in a way that is agreed upon by everyone.

So it's a set of social constructs that we follow to make our lives better.

Now, Bob and Alessandra have created a construct.

It is called shut up, you're boring.

Do you consider their policy to be good manners?

Well, as long as both of them agree on this construct, then yes, this is how they've set their conversation up.

But at this point where Alessandra does not agree, then it becomes bad manners.

Yeah, but what if her stories are really boring?

They may be boring to someone else, but if she needs to tell them, they're very important to her.

Yeah, but

well, see, this is the thing, because Bob.

Yes.

Bob, why is your fiancé so boring?

She's not not boring.

I'm actually the way more boring storyteller.

Only in the area of work, I feel like you lose a little objectivity sometimes and what's interesting in work.

And

that's where sometimes some of those stories are a little rough.

In general,

I find her fascinating.

Give me an example of one of these dull tales she tried to foist on you from the office.

Yeah, sure.

One story she was very excited about was this mystery of the time zone at work where she could not figure out why there was a different time on all the stamped emails.

And then she realized that it was in central time zone and not Eastern time zone.

Alessandra, you solved a little mystery.

I know it was a big day for me.

What exactly, I mean, the way Bob told it was boring, but maybe you can liven it up for me.

because I'm not sure I understand.

What exactly was the mystery of the time stamp on the emails?

So we recently had a lot of changes in my company and the emails was one of them.

And I couldn't figure out why, like, an email that I knew I sent at three, when I looked at it again, it said it was sent at two.

And I was like, am I going crazy?

Like, what is going on?

And then I realized that my company is based in...

Illinois, not Massachusetts.

So all the emails are stamped central time.

And it was really exciting for me to figure it out.

I mean, I can't imagine it was half as exciting for you as it was for me to hear you recount the tale.

I know you got to hear it twice.

My heart is pounding, I have to say.

And so

are you in my home Commonwealth of Massachusetts?

Is that where I find you guys?

And you guys live together, is that correct?

Yes.

Are you

comfortable with the overall contract?

If someone starts telling a boring story, you just go boring and and then shut it down.

Oh, yeah, definitely.

How did this come about?

I don't think either of us really

remembers exactly how it started.

It was pretty organic.

But I think it started when

we moved in together because we already spent a lot of time together.

And then, obviously, when you live with someone.

Boring!

Sorry.

No, go ahead.

I was just trying it out.

I'll see how it felt.

It's satisfying, right?

Yeah.

Is that how the boring ripcord is pulled?

Just saying boring, or is there another Q word?

It's usually that.

Allie's method is usually going, boring, boring.

Oh, my God.

This is so boring.

Well, why should she ever have to say it more than once, Bob, if you've agreed on the policy?

Once someone says boring, that should be it, right?

Why don't you shut up at that point?

I think think I basically am as I am trying to wrap it up or just stop.

Uh, she might sometimes it was the story might be so boring that she continues to tell me it was boring after I've stopped.

Alessandra, give me an example.

Oh, so go ahead, please.

Go ahead.

I apologize.

Oh, no, I was just gonna say, sometimes it's also because he wants to finish telling the story, so he tries to tell it faster than he was going to, even though I keep calling boring.

What is a story?

What is one of his dumb, boring stories that he's tried to shove down your attention span?

Bob really likes board games.

And

he really enjoys telling me the rules of board games as if they were a story.

So like, even though it's not...

Wait,

do you play board games?

I mean, when I have to.

No, I like board games, but I mean...

every once in a while.

But I don't enjoy hearing the rules to board games I've never played told as if it's a thrilling story.

Is this how this whole thing started?

Sometime in your relationship, you're like, I cannot hear,

you're not going to sneak the rules to settlers of Catan by me again.

Yeah, it's possible.

You don't understand.

There's resource management.

Teresa, what do you think about this couple yelling boring at each other over and over again?

Well, I don't think that that method is inherently very mannerly.

There are certainly other ways that one can suggest that you're not into the story that's being told.

Aaron Powell, what would be an example of a way to gently, more gently steer

Bob out of telling another snoozer about board games?

Well, one way can be to just feign general disinterest.

That usually makes people just stop saying whatever oh yeah oh okay great something like that um

but it's never in my life worked

never in your life

never

um never ever worked next

maybe maybe suggest a a um

more of a safe word type situation where instead of

saying the word boring

you there might be an instance where you could say i think i've heard this before or

something like that

that's a little bit.

It could be anything arbitrary at all.

It could just be

orange soda.

Or

moving on.

Yes.

Right.

Or how about this?

Good story.

Stop.

That is a little more in the affirmative.

I do like that one.

Good story.

And you just do this with yourselves, right?

I mean, like, if you go out to dinner with friends or whatever

or with your parents or whatever, you're not like boring, mom.

We have a new policy.

Shut up.

No.

We don't do that.

I maybe should because I come from a long legacy of boring storytellers.

Is that so?

My dad has a legendary 90-minute story on how he got a free bag of potato chips at a grocery store.

That's a legend among my family.

I really, I wonder if we could get him to record it and we can release it as a special.

He would be thrilled.

Did you hear Bob's dad's new hour on getting free potato chips?

It's better.

It's even better.

It's 90 minutes now.

We got the extra materials in.

Now, you both have storytelling backgrounds, though, right?

I mean,

Alessandra, you work in insurance.

And where in Massachusetts are you?

Boston.

Boston, the capital of Massachusetts.

Yeah.

And you work in insurance at an unnamed company.

And Bob,

you have a job as well.

What is your job?

I'm a digital marketing manager.

Digital marketing manager.

But you both have, and I'm correct me if I'm wrong, but I read in the brief, you both have masters of fine arts in creative writing.

Yes, that's why we're both in insurance and marketing.

Why?

Because that's a worthless degree?

Or because

it turns out you're terrible storytellers.

Turns out.

Where did you get your degree?

If you wish to,

did you enjoy getting your degree?

Do you want to name the university?

Oh, yeah.

It was a good experience.

It was at Emerson College.

Emerson College, right there in the heart of Kenmore Square in Boston.

What kind of stuff do you write?

Novels about board games.

There's no way to not sound pretentious saying this, but magic realism, usually,

you know, surrealism, along those genres.

Okay.

But so when you talk about magic realism, that's how you say, I write fantasy novels, but I want them to be taken seriously as literature.

Yeah, exactly.

And Alessandra, you also, did you guys meet in the MFA program?

Yes.

Yeah.

How adorable.

That's a meet relatively cute.

I like it.

What kind of writing do you do?

I do fiction also.

More like,

I don't even know what genre, just realistic, like short fiction.

About people with feelings.

Yeah.

And you say short fiction, like you like short stories, literary short stories.

Yeah.

And do you want to write a novel someday?

I tried and crashed and burned at that one, so probably not.

It was very good.

What, what was what was the give me a little plot synopsis of her novel, Bob?

See if you actually read it.

I did.

It's

about a young man who lives in a small resort town that has

pretty severe obsessive-compulsive disorder and has really dark thoughts.

Oh, yeah.

And he's balancing the rest of his life with these increasingly invasive thoughts.

How old is he?

I'd say he's probably

early 20s.

Late 20s.

Alessandra, is that an accurate synopsis?

Yeah, that was good.

Yeah.

That sounds like a good book.

I'd read that.

Why did you crash and burn it?

Did you actually burn it?

No.

Okay.

I'm just, I'm trying to assess whether or not the idea of being fiction writers is still a reality in your life or something that at the

tender age of 26 and 27, you have given up on in your lives.

What's the quick answer?

Yes or no?

You are still a fiction writer or you're not, Bob?

I think,

yes, just maybe less so thinking of it as a career and more so as like we still submit to literary magazines and the like, but aren't planning on quitting our day jobs.

Alessandra,

you love all the excitement of working in the insurance office and solving email puzzles.

Do you think you might ever move to a small town and become a writer/slash detective like Angela Lansbury?

Yes, I think that's the path my life is on.

A small town in Maine.

Bob, what is your particular beef with work stories?

I don't know.

I just find that work stories tend to be a little more boring.

And Allie's work is highly technical.

So I don't often understand a lot of the details or the specifics.

So it's easy to get confused.

And even if I did,

even if you did, even if you could follow it, you don't care?

Yeah, I guess so.

And

my other, I guess, beef with the work stories case is work stories are really the only boring stories that Allie tells.

So if we got rid of work stories, it would basically just be a Bob boring rule.

Teresa, you suggested that Alessandra might be telling her work stories to her life partner for a different reason other than entertaining him.

Yes.

I mean, perhaps Alexandra, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is telling these stories for her more to share her experience and less to impress Bob?

Or

keep him entertained and laughing all the time.

Correct.

Is it really for you to say whether or not the story is important to tell?

I mean, it may be that Alessandra feels that it's important to tell it or doesn't know for sure it's in her for some reason and she's got to get it out.

And by the end of it, it may have grave importance, even though it took a rather boring course to get there.

You know, we tell stories stories for a lot of different reasons.

Sometimes we don't know why we're telling a story or why we feel compelled to talk about the story.

And it's only when it's out of us that we realize, oh, it really bothered me that my job changed the time zone on the emails because it's confusing.

And also, it means there's change going on at work, and I'm not sure where I fit in or something.

So I just made that story interesting.

Yeah, that's, I think that's fair.

Alessandra, so do you guys have like a

like a flag that you pull out?

When it's like, you're going to find this boring, but I'm waving the important flag.

Not really.

We kind of just tell it.

I think we like say

like

this is, you know, wait, like wait for this is important.

Or usually I think we preface it or something before we even start telling it.

Like.

Like I'm going to like

throw myself out the window.

This happened today or something.

Yeah, something like that.

Right, because you're really upset or whatever.

Yeah.

All right.

Alessandra, does Bob find all of your work stories boring?

Um,

yeah, I think so.

And why is it important for you to start being able and allowed to tell these work stories?

Explain to Bob and this court

why it's important to you.

Well, I think there are a few reasons.

Um

One is that work is a huge part of my life.

I mean, it's nine to five, so I'm there like all the time.

So if I can't talk about work, like what I'm doing during the day, there's, you know, that's a big part of what I do.

And I also think I would like to be able to talk to him about work because some of the stuff I do at work, I need to explain in order to kind of understand how it's important to me.

So

like, for example, I work in insurance, which is boring,

but my specialty is clinical trials.

So to me,

like kind of validates what I do to talk about something that's important, like a clinical trial that might help someone.

And do you, do you enjoy your work?

Yeah.

But talking about it helps you to understand how it is important, even to you.

Yeah.

Right.

Teresa, you should jump in at any time.

I hope you're not holding back because

out of politeness or anything.

Not at all.

I'm I'm actually enjoying listening to both of them tell in pretty succinct manner what it is that they're that they do during the day and how they interact.

And personally, if someone were to tell me a story as succinctly as they've been telling these stories now, I probably wouldn't have time to say if they were boring.

Perhaps they're just taking too long to tell a story.

Yeah, see, it's interesting.

I have a very different reaction to both of them.

And I say this with great affection to my fellow Commonwealthians of Massachusetts, Bob and Alessandra, but I find them to be incredibly boring.

Oh, no.

We both agree.

Yeah, pretty boring.

But Bob was very good at telling a very short summary of Alessandra's book.

And perhaps if all of his stories were, you know, one sentence, then it wouldn't matter as much.

It's accurate to describe his description as short.

Succinctness is a good and important part of being interesting when it's possible.

But I would say that Bob left out a lot

that would have really intrigued me to know.

For example,

it is

a young person, a young man, I believe, if I remember correctly, who lives, I think Bob said, so a young person who lives in a place

and suffers with OCD or struggles with OCD.

And we have a saying on this podcast that specificity is the soul of narrative.

I want to know what resort town this kid lives in.

I want to know what this kid's name is.

I want to know if he's a kid or not.

I want to know

a little sentence of, you know,

what's the incident that gets the story going.

I want to be able to read some copy on the back of that paperback.

Do you know what I'm saying?

And

I found myself glossing over because it was just,

and I say this again with great affection for you, Bob.

Just as kind of

dull,

nonspecific

mush.

We got to get to the crux of these things a little bit.

But please fight back if you disagree with me.

No, I don't disagree.

I do think that the details

is what makes

a story, excuse me, interesting.

But if you don't already have inherent interest, for example, you asked to know what the plot of the short story was.

Whereas Bob may not ask Alexandra how her day went.

Right.

Two-way street.

That's what conversation is, correct?

Correct.

So it might be that Alessandra has nothing to work against,

and Bob is incurious.

And therefore not probing for the details that would help it become more interesting to both of them.

I definitely agree with that.

Interesting.

Bob,

what story is it that you want to tell that you feel you can't?

I think

for me,

I get the boring card pulled on me a lot more than I pull it.

And I think it's because I'm a pretty bad storyteller

and I ramble a lot.

So I think

I would like maybe if we had like dinner time and she's allowed to tell boring stories, then on me, the boring card is pulled off at dinner while we're talking so I can be free of having to be succinct.

This sounds terrible.

I've already lost the case.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, which goes to the point of the matter, I suppose.

But I think what you're and correct me if this is correct me if I'm wrong in my interpretation.

Right now, you have a policy where either one of you can

throw the boring card down and shut down the conversation, unless the other person throws the it's important card down, which trumps the boring card.

Now it sounds like I'm trying to regale instructions of tabletop games,

which is terrible.

Uh, so again, I'm not to belabor it.

If you are now to allow into your conversation game work

talk

as a playable, non-boring card gambit, then you should be allowed equal time to ramble on about whatever is going on in your head or happened to you that day or whatever, right?

That's my case, yeah.

Well, you want to have it, you should have a timer at the table, maybe.

So if Alessandra says,

I have a work story.

And you're like, oh, I want to pull the boring card, but I can't because Judge John Hodgman ruled in her favor.

I'll hit this timer.

and for the entirety of as much time as she takes up with her insurance story, then you can just talk about tabletop games for equal time.

I understand that that's not feasible, but we do have a

sand timer.

What's that?

You have a timer?

We have a giant sand glass of

the game.

Yeah, that's right.

I'm sure you have an hourglass.

I'm sure you have a whole bunch of different kinds of dice.

I have a thought as to the crux of

this.

And you know that

I'm usually a pretty good crux finder, but I just have a crux theory at the moment.

And I'm going to share it with you guys.

And then I'm going to leave this courtroom

and go into my chambers where I can listen to my own dumb stories that I tell in my head.

And here's my theory:

that there might be something

a little bit more loaded about Alessandra's work stories that make them harder to bear.

Now, I admit she may simply, they may simply be boring stories, and sometimes work stories are just sort of dull.

And sometimes it's hard, you'd be surprised, but it's hard to make stories of your day-to-day life at the insurance office interesting.

But,

you know,

when,

Bob, when you say we try to celebrate when someone gets a promotion, is it not true that when you celebrate, say that Alessandra gets a promotion or you do, part of what you're celebrating is you're getting further and further away from your dream of being fiction writers.

I'm going to go into chambers.

You can talk about this with these other people because I'm bored of both of you.

But I wonder, and this is again, Crux theory for you to explore in your minds and your lives.

I'll rule on the timer and everything else.

Crux theory,

perhaps when Alessandra is telling you stories about her work life, it is reminding you that you guys are not doing what you went to university to train yourselves to do.

And as you get older and more entrenched in these jobs,

maybe they become more unbearable to hear about.

I think I've heard and said everything I need to in order to form my decision.

I am now going to go into my chambers and I will be back in a moment with my ruling.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Bob, how do you feel about your chances in the case?

Not too great.

Why not?

I feel like there were pretty valid points made on

Alessandra's side and for Alessandra.

And I, you know, want to be there for her and not make her feel

neglected in any way.

And

yeah, so

I feel like my chances aren't too good.

Alessandra, are you so boring that you're unmarriageable?

I'm pretty boring, but I make pretty good cookies.

So I think I'm pretty marriageable.

She does.

How do you feel about your chances in the case?

I think the point that Bob should also be able to tell boring things is a pretty good one.

Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all of this when we come back in just a minute.

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

You may be seated.

It's a very tricky thing with spouses and having an obligation.

to listen to stories because storytelling is obviously therapeutic.

And that's what talk therapy is, right?

You're just sitting there telling, giving yourself permission to talk about yourself for a while.

And the fact that that other person is there apparently is worth hundreds of dollars an hour.

Seems like a racket, but that's okay.

It's cool.

Sometimes you really need someone else in your life to pull the stories out of you that you are not willing to tell or that you don't know you're telling in a different way.

Like, for example, Bob, when I said that, my whole psychological psychological gobbledygook about

maybe you have a bad reaction to work stories because they remind you that both Alessandra and you are on different paths from where you started as artists.

Does that have any resonance with you?

It doesn't matter if it doesn't.

I think it maybe a little bit with me, but not really with Allie at all because

she's proud of what she does.

And I'm proud of my job and I like it.

But uh i definitely i think have um those creative aspirations still that i don't want to um

uh give up on right and alessandra do you what do you think about bob's assessment that that that he's still holding on to some creative aspirations and you've kind of moved on to some degree yeah i think that's accurate i mean i think we're both still creatively charged, but not in a career sense.

And you write the hobby.

And you wrote almost a whole novel.

What's he ever done?

He wrote a novel, too.

Oh, okay, good.

What's his novel about?

I guess we got to give you equal time.

Quick.

His novel is about a mayonnaise competition in a

small town.

Sold.

Sold.

I'm buying it.

That was really good.

You do have an affinity for mayonnaise, don't you?

Judge John Hart.

I really do.

Magical Realist Mayonnaise Competition in a Small Town.

Specificity to solo narrative.

What's the town?

Altoona, Pennsylvania.

No good.

I don't like it.

Like F.

Murray Abraham.

Like F.

F.

Murray Abraham in

Inside Lewin Davis.

I don't hear money.

I'll do it in Pennsylvania.

No good.

I love your guys'

system.

The idea

that you can

play a card and just trump a conversation because, like, we both know this is boring.

Stop.

That is, in many ways, the soul of etiquette, as rude as it may may seem.

Because you have a personal contract with each other.

And I think that

the purpose of etiquette is not to follow arbitrary rules of politeness, but to follow them because it has been established that it helps make other people feel comfortable as a kindness.

Then,

thank you.

Thank you very much, Teresa, from the expert, no less.

But I mean, that's the point, right?

So everyone knows what to do, and no one feels weird or uncomfortable or awkward if it can be avoided, right?

And you know, you guys have created a contract that is uh, that I think is kind of novel and really interesting, and maybe one that I might want to institute in my own marriage.

It will never happen, never be allowed, but you know,

I think that you violate the contract routinely, it sounds like, because truthfully, if you had this, if you chose a safe word to say, hmm, I'm going to pull a ripcord on this one, moving on, or boring, or whatever it is, that should be it, right?

Unless the other person plays another card saying, no, you need to hear this and here's why.

Where I think you guys are going wrong, if I may say,

is

in the crucial part of storytelling, which is, no,

you need to hear this and here is why,

which is implicit in any story that you ever tell.

Because one thing that is true in life

about your children, your spouses, your girlfriends, your parents, your friends, your best friends, your colleagues at work, no one cares what you are thinking about

because they are thinking about their own things.

All storytelling is, to some degree, an imposition on someone else.

And so it is imperative.

I mean, you guys know this.

You guys both wrote whole novels that maybe the world won't ever see.

And you're daunted because there are many both published novels out there, never mind the unpublished ones, that it feels ridiculously hubristic to suggest that you've got the definitive 300 pages on a mayonnaise competition in Altoona

or an OCD kid with dark thoughts in unnamed resort town.

Which one is it again?

What's the town?

Dicksville Notch.

Dicksville Notch.

That's up in New Hampshire.

Yeah.

Yeah, New England.

That's where it's at.

Altoona, Pennsylvania, for heaven's sake.

You put that

Manny's competition in Maine.

Then you got something.

That's where they love Mayonnaise.

I'll tell you right now.

It's almost wildly hubristic to imagine that you should foist your words onto someone else, like a reader or a spouse or whatever.

And that's why writers take jobs, you know, both to make money, but also because they kind of feel like, why am I even doing this?

And when the whole world is putting up a boring card in front of you, as it often does, it becomes imperative as a storyteller to be able to take a step back, look at the story, and say, no, you need to hear this.

This is interesting, and here's why.

And maybe the problem in your lives isn't that you are violating some code of conduct that you set up,

but that you are not appreciating all the time

why even among your closest confidant in life your your soon-to-be spouse you still need to make it interesting for them too

look it is part of the spousal contract that you guys are going to have jobs that you are going to need to vent about at the end of the day and the other person just has to listen to it that's part of it that's just the way it goes And so obviously, because there was a summary judgment at the beginning, and also the facts of the case bore it out, Alessandra wins on that one.

Work stories have to be an automatic allow in your tabletop game of conversation because that's how you got to get that stuff out.

Do you know what I mean?

In order to work out what's going on during the day.

But that doesn't mean that you, that any spouse has the right to be boring to the other spouse.

And I think that, you know, there are ways to make sure.

that the story is more interesting.

I have said, you know, this is whether you're talking to your friend or whether you're writing out a story.

I have always said many, many, many, many times to the point of annoyance that specificity is

at the heart of every story.

It's the soul of narrative.

So that's why I always ask people, where do you live?

Where do you come from?

You know, where'd you grow up?

As much as I can figure out about them specifically.

So we don't just have rando, weird dad, and rando, ungrateful child, or rando, you know, husband and rando

wife, or whatever it is, but we know, we know who we are here.

Do you know what I mean?

So naming the town, telling me in the description of your wife to be's novel, you know, give me as much specific stuff as you can.

That brings me into that world to some degree.

Teresa is under the impression,

Bob, that you are succinct.

With great respect to my guest, I disagree.

It was one sentence, John.

That's true.

It was.

It was.

But there's a lot of umming and awing,

and a lot of, you said yourself, you know, you rambled and you're the son of ramblers.

You're the son of a guy who could tell 90 minutes on how he got a free pack of lays.

So,

you know, read your strunk and white.

Figure out how to tighten it up a little bit.

That's another way to make it interesting.

But the most, I think, important way to make it interesting is.

Before you tell your story, or if the person out there gives you the red card,

stop and go, wait a minute, minute, why am I telling this story?

What is it that's interesting about this?

Because we often have the desire to tell a story before we know why we need to tell it.

And if you can figure that out for yourself, then you can bring the other person in.

That's just general me talking at you because

I'm a narcissist and I believe everything I say is interesting.

So I don't have to go through.

the work you have to go through in order to make it interesting for other people, legitimately.

I don't care.

But

in terms of the ruling, work stories are allowed.

The system is still in place, but I'm going to refine it for you precisely the way that I outlined in order to create fairness.

Red cards.

I want you to make red cards.

And I want you to make yellow cards.

And I want you to have a timer at at the dinner table.

If a story is boring, you throw down the red card.

The yellow card means,

no, it's important you listen to this.

It's interesting.

And now the person who's played that yellow card now has doubled the stakes because it actually has to be interesting.

And maybe because you have to stop and think about it for a minute, you'll find out why it's interesting.

to you in a way that makes it interesting to the other person, right?

Work story cannot get an automatic red card.

Work story, just say, this is a work story.

And if you have to vent it, you have to vent it.

And maybe you don't know yet why it's not interesting, but because of the ruling, work stories, automatic, green, go for work stories, but time it.

I really want you to have a timer.

I really want Bob to have that time to talk about his favorite board games or whatever, because he needs to get those things out of himself, too.

So I think I just described the rules of the game pretty well.

If you have any questions, consult the manual.

I want to see pictures of the physical red and yellow cards and the Tiber at your dinner table,

or I will send the bailiff around to impound all your belongings.

This is the sound of a gabble.

Judge John Hodgman rules that is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Alessandra, are you satisfied with the decision?

Yeah, I think that was pretty fair.

Are you excited about making these manipulatives, as they call them, in educational circles?

Yes, so excited.

Bob, how about you?

Are you excited that there are new rules?

Yeah, I can explain the rules of the Judge John Hodgman boring story game to Allie at dinner.

Do you feel that you've learned a lesson?

You know, I actually do.

I think it was a fair ruling, and I agree with it.

I just realized, I'm sorry to jump back out of my chambers, but I just realized that we need a card for work stories.

What color should the work story card be?

Alessandra, do you know?

Pink.

Pink.

All right.

She was ready with that.

Yeah, she knows how this game is played.

Bob Alessandra, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you.

And Teresa McElroy, thank you thank you for having me i guess if people enjoyed your performance they could uh hear you on schmanner's weekly here on the maximumfund.org network absolutely no rsvp required

you know we've been doing my brother my brother me for 15 years and

maybe you stopped listening for a while maybe you never listened and you're probably assuming three white guys talking for 15 years i know where this has ended up but no

no you would be wrong we're as shocked as you are that that we have not fallen into some sort of horrific scandal or just turned into a big crypto thing.

Yeah, you don't even really know how crypto works.

The only NFTs I'm into are naughty, funny things, which is what we talk about on my brother, my brother, and me.

We serve it up every Monday for you if you're listening.

And if not, we just leave it out back and goes rotten.

So check it out on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, we're over 70 episodes into our show.

Let's Learn Everything.

So let's do a quick progress check.

Have we learned about quantum physics?

Yes, episode 59.

We haven't learned about the history of gossip yet, have we?

Yes, we have.

Same episode, actually.

Have we talked to Tom Scott about his love of roller coasters?

Episode 64.

So how close are we to learning everything?

Bad news.

We still haven't learned everything yet.

Oh, we're ruined.

No, no, no.

It's good news as well.

There is still a lot to learn.

Woo!

I'm Dr.

Ella Hubber.

I'm regular Tom Lawman.

I'm Caroline Roper.

And on Let's Learn Everything, we learn about science and a bit of everything else too.

And although we haven't learned everything yet, I've got a pretty good feeling about this next episode.

Join us every other Thursday on Maximum Fun.

Well, that's it for another Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I don't want to bore anybody by listing a bunch of stuff, but I do want to thank Jesse Houston for naming this week's case.

Thanks, Jesse.

You held my interest.

Absolutely.

If you want to name a future case on Judge John Hodgman, it's easy.

Just follow us on Twitter, at Jesse Thorne, and at Hodgman.

And like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, where you will find the thread wherein we ask for those very things.

Above all else this week, we want to thank everyone who contributed to the Maximum Fun Drive.

Thank you, guys.

It's because of you and your efforts that we're able to do this, like for Reels.

So thank you so much to every single one of you.

We really, truly appreciate it.

And the rest of you, there's always next year or right now.

And may I also say personally, Jesse, it just means so much that there was such an outpouring of support this year.

I hope you know by now that we weren't asking and bothering you for funds.

We were doing it out of genuine need for your support, and you showed it.

And I just want to say thank you.

Yeah.

Thanks, everybody.

It's a great honor to work for you.

Okay.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Wait a minute.

I don't work for them.

What is that?

Is that what's happening?

I work for them now.

Yeah, that's the whole point.

When do I get my break?

You're gonna have to bring that up in the union negotiations.

I get a seven-minute break every 19 hours.

Get back to work, Hodgman.

Bye.

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