Dr Nadine Macaluso

Speaker 1 My guest today, Dr. Nadine Mancaluzzo, is a therapist specializing in trauma healing and personal transformation.

Speaker 1 Her incredible life inspired the character Naomi Belfort, played by actor Margot Robbie.

Speaker 1 In the iconic movie The Wolf of Wall Street, Nadine was married to The Wolf of Wall Street, real life named Jordan Belfort.

Speaker 1 After overcoming several personal challenges, she earned a master's in counseling and a PhD in psychotherapy.

Speaker 1 Nowadays, she helps people recover from trauma bonds, post-traumatic stress disorder, and shame.

Speaker 1 She's also the author of this great book, Run Like Hell, a Therapist's Guide to Recognizing Escaping and Healing from Trauma Bonds.

Speaker 1 If you are out there in some kind of horrible relationship, you don't know how to get out of it, any kind of bad situation, these are very doable first steps and I hope they inspire you.

Speaker 1 If I could start my life over after a horribly abusive marriage and she did it too, you can. So I hope you enjoyed this episode with the fabulous Dr.
Nadine.

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Speaker 1 Dr. Nadine McAloozo, welcome to Catalan DeLuz.

Speaker 2 Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 It's a huge pleasure having you here. As we were saying before we got started, I was looking through your work and I'm amazed after everything you've been through, how you transformed your life.

Speaker 1 And I have to tell you, we have a lot in common because I don't think you know, but I was in a horribly toxic marriage for 15 years myself.

Speaker 2 I'm so sorry. That's a very long time.
That's double the time I did.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's why when I saw the title of your book, Run Like Hell, I'm like, I got to read this book.

Speaker 1 I have 10 million questions for you so let's do let's do this fast and furious so I want to start with the toughest because for people that don't know you you were married to someone I don't know if it's infamous or famous but famous at this point I think he's famous

Speaker 1 famous um the so-called wolf of Wall Street yes right do you want to give us a little bit of the background for people that don't know about Sure, yeah.

Speaker 2 So I was married to the infamous Jordan Belfort, aka The Wolf of Wall Street. So Margot Robbie played me in the movie, The Wolf of Wall Street, and we were married for eight years.

Speaker 2 And we had the quintessential trauma bond, which is a toxic dysfunctional relationship, right?

Speaker 2 Now, I didn't know this back then because nobody was talking about narcissism and trauma bonds, but we were married for eight years.

Speaker 2 It was a crazy, crazy, insane life, as the movie depicts.

Speaker 2 Drugs, rock and roll, just tons of money, you know but unfortunately what the movie doesn't show is how traumatized i was and how abusive he was and what his drug addiction did to me

Speaker 1 yes okay let's stop there because obviously it's one of the most iconic movies most famous movies of all time the wolf of wall street um so the margie rabbi character was based out of your real life yes So you married this guy and you were super young, correct?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I was 22, 23 when I married him, I think. Yeah.

Speaker 1 so I keep it's funny because we have so much in common. It's the same.
I married my husband, he was not addicted to drugs, but he was an alcoholic.

Speaker 1 And I married him when I was really young, but when I marry him, he wasn't an alcoholic yet. It's something that develops and gets worse, right?

Speaker 1 And the stupid thing that you mentioned, the movie shows, you know, the drugs and the money and everything, but it doesn't show how painful it is for the partner of an athlete that is going through all of that.

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Speaker 2 That's a perfect way to say it. It does not show that.
The movie does not show that. Because the movie, you have to remember, the movie is based after Jordan's book.

Speaker 2 So, Jordan wrote a book, The Wolf of Wall Street, then he then the movie got made. And so, it's told through his lens, through his narrative.

Speaker 1 So, but when you got tangled up with him, like in the very beginning, because I'm not sure if it was the same for me, but I get messages from women all over the world.

Speaker 1 The number one question they ask me is, why didn't you leave sooner? Why didn't you leave sooner? Why didn't you leave sooner?

Speaker 1 In my case, at the very beginning, you don't know it's going to get that bad. Like,

Speaker 1 right? You're in love and you're young. And then when you realize the person may have a problem, I was always like, he's going to change for me.
He loves me. He's going to change for me.

Speaker 1 Was that kind of the same for you?

Speaker 2 Yeah. So when you meet this person, I call them, they have two masks.
They have Romeo and Dirty John. So when you first meet them, they're Romeo.

Speaker 2 They love mom you, they're nice, you know, they're generous, they're kind, they're helpful. They say, you're my soulmate.
And that's what it was for me.

Speaker 2 You know, I was a young girl modeling in New York City. I'd grown up in Brooklyn with a single mother, and all of a sudden, you know, he's flying me, you know, on private planes, and we're going to

Speaker 2 Paris and the Concorde, and we're having $2,000 dinners. And, you know, he's buying me a Bulgari watch, right? But,

Speaker 2 right. And so he's only five years older than me, and we just fall madly, madly in love.
And then the mask falls.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then you start to see other parts of this person that can be cruel, that can be controlling, that can have addiction. And by that point, I was already in love and I'm a loyal, tolerant person.

Speaker 1 Same.

Speaker 2 Right. So I wanted to make it work.
And I thought, just like you. Of course, listen, I'm a therapist at heart, right? So I really thought I could fix him.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 I do for a living, even though I don't fix people. They fix themselves, but my job is to help people.
And so I'm a naturally inclined helper with a lot of empathy.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I am the same. Although, yeah, I got better because obviously my marriage, I mean, 15 years, I was like, this guy's going to learn to go.

Speaker 1 But now I know, like you said, you know, you can't fix someone. They either want to be fixed and want help or there's nothing you can do about it.

Speaker 2 Correct, correct, correct. And we have to give ourselves grace because all those years ago, nobody was talking about trauma bonds.
Nobody was talking about narcissists.

Speaker 2 Nobody was talking about coercive control, all the things that I write about. And so we didn't know about it.
I was even in therapy and my therapist wasn't talking to me about it.

Speaker 1 I was not in therapy, but I will tell you one thing because, and I don't know if you have a similar experience, because when you marry someone really wealthy to the outside world, you have this perfect life.

Speaker 1 Correct. The trips and the homes and the vacations and the cars and the jury.
So I remember the few times that I would try to reach out and tell someone, like,

Speaker 1 you know, this is horrible. He's being abusive to me because he was extremely verbally abusive and sometimes physically abusive.
Even my mom, she used to be like, don't rock the boat. Are you crazy?

Speaker 1 You have this princess life.

Speaker 1 Nobody really, they always thought it was me exaggerating the situation.

Speaker 1 Was it kind of the same for you?

Speaker 2 Yeah, you know, my ex was so crazy that, like, it was obvious he was crazy.

Speaker 2 He was very like, go big or go home.

Speaker 2 So, what would happen for me is I would go to therapy and I would tell my therapist, but no good therapist is going to tell you to leave anyway, because then you won't come back to therapy.

Speaker 2 Leaving has to be the victim's choice. And when I talked to my friends about it, you know, a lot of our friends, my girlfriends, their husbands worked for Jordan.

Speaker 2 So it was kind of like Stratton was kind of like a cult.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And, you know, so even if I told people, like my girlfriends, even if I tried to stand up to him,

Speaker 2 I didn't have the power. He had all the power.

Speaker 1 I know. So what was the, well, before I ask you about the breaking point, I want to mention, I saw a video that you posted on your Instagram account.
I think you got millions of views for that.

Speaker 1 Your wedding day. You're like, my wedding day, and it was like a really fancy wedding.
And you mentioned that the part nobody saw.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You were sad.

Speaker 2 I was so sad. I was so sad because

Speaker 2 I was pregnant because he had said to me, if you don't, first of all, he made all these demands.

Speaker 2 If you don't marry me, I'm not going to date you. And I was like, oh, God, okay, I'm not ready to get married.
Then if you don't have babies, I'm not going to marry you.

Speaker 2 So here I was marrying him and pregnant. And then he's wasted the whole entire weekend.

Speaker 2 And I just felt so alone. And the night before our wedding, I got furious with him because I am from Brooklyn, you know, so I'm not a wallflower.
And I was so sad and so disappointed.

Speaker 2 And I couldn't believe it. I'm like, you wanted all this.
And then this is how you behave. And he was just like, oh, well.

Speaker 2 And we never resolved it. And then the next day, I had 250 people.
flying, you know, on the islands waiting to get married. And I just was like, okay, I'm going to get married.

Speaker 1 But it's,

Speaker 2 that was such a bad beginning. I mean, the signs were all there.
I didn't think it was going to go good.

Speaker 1 Crazy how our stories are similar because I had, I have a very similar story that the day of my wedding, after dating for six years, same, he was pressuring me to get married.

Speaker 2 He was hammered, like hammered, hammered, hammered.

Speaker 1 He arrived at the church like over an hour late and then could barely stand there. We got married in Las Vegas and he was like waddling.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then I had planned this beautiful party, like at this penthouse suite of the bellage and cake and everything.

Speaker 1 And my closest friends, and he ran to the suite and like attacked the buffet, attacked the cake, trashed everything

Speaker 1 and locked himself in the bedroom and fell asleep. You know, I

Speaker 1 similar experience. Like I was,

Speaker 1 I have, I have like the worst. memories of it, which should be one of the happiest days of our lives.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that was definitely, there were a lot of red flags there for me. But again, we weren't talking about red flags then.

Speaker 2 And what I would say, I would just be like, oh, it's just like when he wanted me to get married, wanted me to have babies. It was just because he loves me so much.

Speaker 2 But I didn't realize he was taking away my autonomy. He was taking away my whole sense of self.

Speaker 1 So what was the breaking point for you to say, you know what, I got to get out of this situation?

Speaker 2 I had, I had, in my book, I call them last straws, and I had three of them. One was when he got physically violent with me, finally, he kicked me down the stairs.

Speaker 2 So there's something, even though the emotional and verbal abuse to me feels just as bad or worse, honestly.

Speaker 1 I agree.

Speaker 2 But there's something about that physicality that snapped me.

Speaker 2 And then when I confronted him after he did finally get sober, and I said to him, you know, this was really so hard, everything you put me through, the drugs, the rage, he goes, It wasn't that bad.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God. And I didn't know what the word callousness meant.
And I didn't know, but inside my heart closed because I was like, how could you not have remorse or empathy?

Speaker 2 And then, so I wanted to leave him, but I was afraid to leave him. But then he got arrested and the government put an ankle bracelet on him.
And so his ankle bracelet was my freedom bracelet.

Speaker 1 You were afraid to leave because of your physical safety or were you afraid because, because I know a lot of women are afraid to leave because they depend on their man.

Speaker 2 Yes, yes, yes, for both.

Speaker 2 Yes, I was afraid.

Speaker 1 That was a part of it.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
I was afraid financially. I was afraid, you know, men in power, and I've seen this with many of my patients and cases.

Speaker 2 They twist the story and say the woman's the drug addict, the woman's the crazy one. And when someone has all that power and money, they could pay people off.

Speaker 2 And I knew that, you know, and I'd seen him do it. Right.
So, but I knew once he got arrested it was so clear you are the problem sir yeah and then you got out i got out i said that's it i'm done

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Speaker 1 That's fantastic. Because like I said, for me, it took me, it was a really long process.
And to this day,

Speaker 1 this happened many years ago. A lot of women and men, everybody asked me why did it take so long?

Speaker 1 But can you explain to people out there, why do you think sometimes we take so long to

Speaker 1 break free?

Speaker 2 Yeah, so

Speaker 2 here's the thing about a child bond. It has to have two conditions for it to exist.
The first one is a power imbalance, which we've been talking about.

Speaker 2 The second one is something called intermittent reinforcement, meaning 70% of the time they're cruel, drunk, right, addicted, controlling, mean, betraying.

Speaker 2 But that 30% of the time, they're nice, kind, generous, and helpful. So that 30% of the time keeps us hooked.
Hope is the hook.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 When we see that Romeo part, because I call it Romeo and Dirty John, when Romeo is there, we're like, oh, there's the guy I fell in love with. Plus, they make promises.
They're going to change.

Speaker 2 They're going to grow. They're going to do better.
But then their words don't match their actions. And so that's one of the reasons, right? But also,

Speaker 1 for me,

Speaker 2 I wanted to keep my family together.

Speaker 1 I wanted to.

Speaker 2 I had kids. I wanted to make it work.
I genuinely loved him in the beginning. This was something, this was a vow that I took very seriously.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 also these guys are master manipulators.

Speaker 2 So you're getting manipulated and gaslit the whole entire time. So it's a complex,

Speaker 2 it's a trauma bond is a complex process. And I want to mention one more thing.

Speaker 2 Because of the two masks of Romeo and Dirty John, you have a symptom called cognitive dissonance, meaning you feel totally confused. Is he good? Is he bad? Am I crazy? Is he crazy?

Speaker 2 Is the relationship good or bad?

Speaker 2 So you're genuinely confused by the relationship, plus you're in love, plus you're financially dependent. Then if you have kids,

Speaker 1 it's very complicated. So for women out there who are still in these

Speaker 1 complicated relationships,

Speaker 1 is there any kind of a third step or a word of encouragement for them to actually gather the forces to get out of it.

Speaker 1 Because I know you and I did, regardless of how long it took, I think we are very lucky because we got out and we were able to reinvent our lives and start a

Speaker 1 messages from women from all over the world and they say, How did you do it? I can't do it. I'm stuck.
I depend.

Speaker 1 And I'm not a doctor. So it's hard for me to respond.
Maybe you have some kind of word.

Speaker 2 Sure, sure. What I say, first of all,

Speaker 2 you know, we we know that when a woman's going to leave it, this trauma bond is the most dangerous time. And we have to take that very seriously.

Speaker 2 So what I say, you know, inside when you make that decision, like, I'm not going to stay anymore, don't tell him.

Speaker 2 Do not tell him. He cannot see you coming.
This person who wants power and control over you, if you tell them you're going to leave them, they're going to go crazy.

Speaker 2 So you have to wear the mask now and act totally normal to their phase and plan behind the scenes. Get a lawyer, get a divorce coach, get a good therapist, get all your documents, right?

Speaker 2 Get a new bank account, get your own credit card, get everything

Speaker 2 prepared. Maybe go talk to a domestic violence shelter, right? Read my book, right? Get really educated.
And then at the right time, you leave.

Speaker 1 I love that.

Speaker 1 I think that's a great idea. And I even go further.
I made the mistake that I was very financially dependent on him because he was so controlling.

Speaker 1 The years went by, he made me work less and less and less and less. He didn't like me to work.
He was very jealous.

Speaker 1 He kept, you know, saying, even now, I know he was like humiliating me with phrases like, I make more money in a day than you're ever going to make in a year. You know, you think you are, la, la, la.

Speaker 1 So, towards the end of my marriage, when I wanted to get out,

Speaker 1 I have very little like in my bank account, in my name.

Speaker 2 I literally had to start over from scratch so I tell women even if you do marry a multimillionaire always keep your own courts right all you have to you have to and that's why I say you know what immediately get new credit cards right and listen a lot of times I'll tell women go to Target and Walmart and just for a year get gift cards and stack them up at home that's very clear yeah that's a great great idea yeah but it's true financial independence no matter who you are, no matter who you're married to, is very important as a woman.

Speaker 1 For sure. Oh my God.
And the second part, so let's say somebody out there got out of the relationship part is get or getting organized to get out of the relationship.

Speaker 1 The second part that is really complicated is

Speaker 1 to rebuild yourself mentally, right? For me,

Speaker 1 and that's how I actually started the podcast, because after I left my marriage,

Speaker 1 I had this mind that I was a piece of shit, that I was worthless. I thought it was normal to be treated like shit by men.

Speaker 1 So I kept getting tangled up with the same kind of men that were abusive in some way, mistreating.

Speaker 1 That's how I started Cat on the Luzic. I was literally venting.
And I realized there's millions of women out there going through the same.

Speaker 1 My process was actually, believe it or not, doing the podcast and meeting women all over the world and giving them a voice healed me and it made me wake up and say, wait a minute, you deserve better, you know?

Speaker 1 But through the process, it took me many years to understand that

Speaker 1 we are not supposed to be kicked and beaten and called trash and called a piece of shit.

Speaker 1 How do women heal? Same thing is their first step because not everybody can afford therapy.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. So that's why I wrote my book, right?

Speaker 2 Because the whole third part is about healing, because you have symptoms of loss of self and you have trauma symptoms called CPTSD and you do have cognitive dissonance.

Speaker 2 So I lay out in my book how to heal. But

Speaker 2 what I say to women is you've been so obsessed with this man.

Speaker 2 What you need to do is turn the mirror back on you. Listen to these podcasts, get educated, read books.
What are your attachment patterns? How did your developmental trauma shape you, right?

Speaker 2 What are your personality traits?

Speaker 2 Find something that you're good at to build your confidence up. And so what I did recently is because everybody can't afford therapy, I started something called the Sur Thriver Community.

Speaker 2 And so I took my book and I made it into an online course. And I host a community where you can take my course.

Speaker 2 I run support groups three times a week and I bring in experts every week to talk. And it's $30 a month.

Speaker 1 Oh, I love that. How can people find that? Like, that's a, I, you finally somebody that is doing something right.
No,

Speaker 2 right. Because, because I was saying, it took me a year to create it.
I mean, a lot of work, but it's, and the way I started in February, the women are loving it.

Speaker 2 So if they go to my website, drnaynae.com, you'll see community on the website. You just click on there and it's $29.99 a month.

Speaker 1 By the way, guys, listening to the audio episode, the link of our website is here. So when you're done, go there and click.
If you're watching the video episode, I'm going to put it here on the bio.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's

Speaker 1 fantastic. Because what we want is like

Speaker 1 actual places that women can go to and feel they're supported, right?

Speaker 2 That's right. That's right.
And I have women from Canada, from London, from Italy, from the United States. And

Speaker 2 I mean, the best part of it aside the information is the way that women validate each other and say to each other, you're not crazy. I believe you.

Speaker 1 When you left your relationship,

Speaker 1 did you have a support system?

Speaker 1 I did.

Speaker 2 I did. I had my family.
I had my friends. It was still really hard.
You know, I had two little kids,

Speaker 2 but I put myself in really intense therapy to make sure I could heal from this.

Speaker 2 But I did have support and it was hard to rebuild. But honestly,

Speaker 2 this is what my mother taught me. When you're in a destructive, toxic relationship, that's destructive pain.
When you're struggling in life to try to make yourself better, that's constructive pain.

Speaker 1 Oh, I love that.

Speaker 2 Right. So you're, you're, even though it's hard and it's painful, you're building a better you, a better life.

Speaker 1 But and after you let you became a therapist after yes.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I went back school at 38 to get my master's.

Speaker 2 Lady, so I'm 57 now. And then I got my PhD

Speaker 2 and then I wrote a book. So you can do anything.

Speaker 1 I'm a late boomer.

Speaker 1 You took all this pain and everything that happened to you and you literally repurposed and transformed it into a new career. And you started this whole new amazing life.

Speaker 1 And now you help a lot of women out there. I do.
You are living proof that, you know, you can start a whole new life you you can start a whole new life and you know

Speaker 2 if somebody would have told me as a young girl like this is what i would be doing i would have never imagined you know this is what i would do but you know i get to take the most ridiculous misogynistic movie and exploit it to help women everywhere i mean i couldn't have written it better if i tried how did you feel when the movie came out did you find

Speaker 1 it properly

Speaker 2 oh yes i mean she was great It was fine. I thought it was funny.
It's a great movie.

Speaker 2 You know, she was 22. I met her because she wanted to get my accent.

Speaker 2 And I had nothing to do with the movie. I don't make any money.
I took no money when I left my class. They paid me.

Speaker 1 Nothing.

Speaker 2 Nothing.

Speaker 1 That's fair.

Speaker 1 You know what?

Speaker 2 Life isn't fair, but it's okay.

Speaker 1 I would think if they're like, you know, putting literally your life there and obviously they

Speaker 2 know. You would think.
You would think.

Speaker 1 It looks like you she's from Brooklyn it's literally you on she's me she's me yeah she's you

Speaker 2 think that you know you get some kind of participation I got nothing and I left with no money so um

Speaker 2 but that's okay because my life

Speaker 1 have anything

Speaker 2 what'd you said have a prenup or any money had a prenup but honestly when he got arrested the government you know we gave him everything and I didn't want anything because it was all blood money yeah So how did you support yourself and your kids?

Speaker 2 So I was in the garment business. I had a maternity company.
I had a little store and a website and a catalog. And so I had a business that I built when I was with him.
And then

Speaker 2 I sold clothing to Walmart and Target. So I was in the garment business for years before I went back to school.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so I, you know, I did work, but, you know, you can do it. Women, women are amazing.

Speaker 1 That's why we give birth.

Speaker 2 That's why we give life.

Speaker 1 Yes, we are. We are.
I think we have a, we are much better reinventing ourselves and getting through this type of pain than most men, actually. Yes.

Speaker 2 I do. I do.
And we're, you know, we're living examples.

Speaker 2 So if you're listening to this, you know, feel hopeful and look for the helpers because there are, you know, helpers out there that will help you.

Speaker 1 1 million percent. But also another issue.

Speaker 1 a lot of women, when, and I, like I said, I was one in the beginning, when they leave a bad, toxic, abusive relationship, they have the tendency of repeating the cycle.

Speaker 1 I have some girls joke about like, oh, well, the other day, one of my girlfriends said, oh, I like the bad boy. I like the bad boy.
It's not a joke, right? At the end of the day,

Speaker 1 we are hurting ourselves over and over again.

Speaker 1 Why do we do that? And is there a way to literally break the cycle? Yes.

Speaker 2 That's where you have to go.

Speaker 2 That's where you have to understand how your developmental early years shaped you, because how your parents responded or didn't respond to you wires your brain, heart, and body for love.

Speaker 2 And you need to know how you're wired for love, but you can rework that wiring.

Speaker 2 so that you don't keep choosing people that abuse you because, you know, all we have to do is turn on the news and see P.

Speaker 2 Diddy and all these women that i mean get actually killed by these men you know so it really isn't a joke and

Speaker 2 you got to really be careful because you don't want to end up with one of them if you don't have to right like if you can avoid it why why why not fight to like you need to fight to avoid it get educated yeah and you don't want to go back like you don't want to leave one and get into another one like i did i kept literally getting tangled up with

Speaker 1 men.

Speaker 1 And what broke the cycle for me, like I said, my therapy was the podcast because I kept listening to my stories out loud. And I'm like, are you fucking crazy? You know, I started thinking that,

Speaker 1 why are you putting up with this shit? So, to me, speaking my stories out loud made me realize that, you know, you got to stop it.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 1 if somebody does not have a podcast or if they cannot afford to do therapy every single day,

Speaker 1 any kind of mental exercise or any kind of exercise that they can do to real, to understand that they deserve better than another bad boy.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you know, the thing is that I think that we all have an inner critic and a basic exercise that find out what your inner critic says to you. You don't matter.
You're not worth it.

Speaker 2 You're not good enough. You're broken.
You have to be perfect to be loved. You know, find out what your inner critic says to you and then write an opposite affirmation.

Speaker 2 You don't have to feel the affirmation, but you have to, whenever that inner critic, whenever you're criticizing yourself, you have to stop the thought, say, no, oh, that's my inner critic, and say the affirmation.

Speaker 2 Because the way you speak to yourself really affects how you feel. And it affects your sense of self and your sense of self-worth.
And we don't even realize how mean we are to ourselves inside.

Speaker 2 So if you could start to be kind to you, you're going to also start to accept kindness from other people.

Speaker 1 It's so true. And actually, I saw something that you have on your website that I loved.

Speaker 1 I mentioned to you just before the recording, I was like, I'm going to do one because I like that people can actually do, right?

Speaker 2 They bring all the assessments.

Speaker 1 Assessments. I love, you literally put free assessment tests on your website.
Guys, it's amazing. You can go there.
It takes like a few minutes.

Speaker 2 A few minutes.

Speaker 1 Questions and you learn so much about yourself. And then you email the answers to the person.

Speaker 1 I do.

Speaker 1 Yes. I got the email immediately.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And then I have all different worksheets on attachment and it's all for free.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It's all for free.
So I think that's a great first step.

Speaker 2 It's a great first step. Great first step.

Speaker 1 Yeah, to realize like, where are you at in the spectrum?

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 2 Exactly. It'll tell you what your attachment is.
If you're in a trauma bond, have a pathological lover assessment. I have so many assessments.

Speaker 1 No, it's

Speaker 2 important because I feel like the reason why I have the assessments is because if you're not in therapy, you need information.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 For sure. For sure.
Now, how'd you come up with the name of this book? I love it, but can you give us the run?

Speaker 2 No, you know what? Honestly, I can't take credit for it. My publisher came up with it.
And when they first presented it to me, I was like, that's not academic enough.

Speaker 2 And they were like, Nadine, I was like, okay. And of course, it's a great title.

Speaker 1 So, but how do,

Speaker 1 I mean, how do you guys come up with or the meaning behind it? Because obviously we're all like helmets, get out of the relationship.

Speaker 2 Means, get out, just because the whole book is about that. And the only thing is that if you're in a toxic relationship, you can't really have it next to your nightstand.

Speaker 2 So, but I do have an audio book and an e-book.

Speaker 1 Yeah, meaning like if you want to read it, if

Speaker 1 to know that.

Speaker 2 Right. You don't want your partner to know you're planning to run like, well, put a book cover on the front.

Speaker 2 But, you know, but that's why I do have an audio book and an e-book so you can read it in private.

Speaker 1 Where do people find it on Amazon?

Speaker 2 On my website or Amazon.

Speaker 1 Both. What's the most important take from it? Like, if people...
Well, I'm saying women because I feel this, you know.

Speaker 2 It is women. Yeah.
The most important take is that abuse is never your fault.

Speaker 2 The abuser will try to blame you. The abuser will say, you made me do this.
But if somebody's addicted to drugs or alcohol or somebody's abusing you, you did nothing to cause it.

Speaker 2 It's their responsibility, but it is your responsibility to heal.

Speaker 1 I love that you said that because it's so true. Like in my case, during my marriage, so many times I thought I was doing something wrong.

Speaker 1 Like every time he would call me names or attack me or abuse me physically, verbally, I would feel like I did something.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 1 We feel like, okay, I'm not being a good enough wife. Why did I piss? I remember I used to say that to me, why did I piss him off so much? Right.

Speaker 2 You didn't. Trust me, if he wasn't married to you, he'd be treating

Speaker 2 whatever wife he had the same exact way.

Speaker 1 For sure. But I know that's the number one thing that a lot of women out there say, I can't get out.
Number one issue, financial. If somebody depends on their husband 100%

Speaker 1 and they are being abused and they don't know how to get out. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Any suggestions?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I would say get a little job on the side.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Just try to get a little job. Become a virtual assistant.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 a lot of these guys, especially.

Speaker 2 They don't let them. Yeah.
they don't let you work right now and then yeah and i would say then you know join my community That would be the first thing.

Speaker 2 Or go to a domestic violence shelter and they will come up with a plan for you.

Speaker 1 Anything is better than staying, right? Because I think abuse just gets worse.

Speaker 2 Abuse only escalates and the only way to end abuse is to leave.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I love that.
Thank you so much. So much incredible, amazing information.
Last but not least, did he ever like reach out to you?

Speaker 2 Oh, you know, listen, we, we raised two children together. My daughter's 31.
She's a therapist. My son's 29.
They're great. Yeah, when I moved, I moved to California and him and I became friends.

Speaker 2 Now he doesn't love so much that I'm posting about him all the time, but oh well.

Speaker 2 Oh well, I mean, he made the movie.

Speaker 1 Like

Speaker 1 when he wrote the book and he made the movie, you were right there. And apparently, you didn't have any say on it.

Speaker 2 Right. So I get to do what I get to do.
But no,

Speaker 2 we have a good relationship.

Speaker 1 That's not a great idea, Nadine. Maybe

Speaker 1 The Wolf of Wall Street, part two, by Francis of the Woman.

Speaker 2 That's right. We do.

Speaker 1 The narrator. That was the same story from your side.
That would be pretty cool, right? That would be great. Totally different movie there.

Speaker 2 Totally different. Probably not as funny.

Speaker 1 Well, congratulations on your beautiful work. I'm dying to read the book.
I'm definitely going to get it. Guys, check it out.

Speaker 1 I think the idea of building a community where women can find each other is absolutely fantastic i'm gonna join myself and take the assessment tests as a first step right take it take it please please please and you know i'm on instagram as the real dr nadine

Speaker 2 you know hit me up in the dms i love to say hi to everybody visit my website drnad.com read the book run like hell and uh that's a great start to to get out of a toxic relationship absolutely so i'm going to repeat the instagram is theredr dr nadine.

Speaker 1 The website is

Speaker 2 doctor. It's drnae.com.

Speaker 1 Okay, and the link of the website is here. Thank you so much.
It was such honour. Oh,

Speaker 2 such a pleasure to meet you.

Speaker 1 Thank you for doing such great work. I'm very grateful.
Thank you. Guys, be safe out there.
Yes, and get out of any abusive relationship. We all deserve better.
Many kisses. See you soon.

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