ZEN ARTS CEO DOUG MILLER

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My guest today, Doug Miller, is the founder and CEO of Zen Arts. They create custom-made, incredible events, weddings, multi-million dollar parties.
Super, super fun, magical world that Doug lives in.

And also, he's a really good friend. We are neighbors, we live in the same area, our dogs are friends.
We never dated.

We never had anything romantic whatsoever. We are a perfect example how a guy and a girl can be really, really good friends.
And I love confiding in Doug and vice versa.

He's just mending a broken heart, getting off of an engagement. He is just putting his foot back into the dating scene in LA.
So we had a lot to talk about.

And I hope you guys enjoy this really fun, light-hearted episode of Cat on the Lose, always 100% organic, never edited, never scripted.

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Doug, welcome to Cat on the Loose. I finally got you here.
Yes. It took a bit.

It took a while, right? But here you are, and I'm very happy to have you. I'm happy to be here.

So, before we talk about your fabulous company and your amazing work with Zen Arts, let's explain to people our background. Like I was seeing in the car,

not only

you're my guest, but we're besties and neighbors. Yes, we are friends.
We are a true example of how, because I get that a lot on the podcast. You know, I've been doing Carondalus for four years now.

And it's a big debate out there in the relationships and dating world that most people do not believe that men and women can just be friends.

They think there is always going to be some kind of flirting or romantic dynamics. And we are a perfect example that men and women can be great friends from the get-go.

Yeah. Well, I think, you know, when we first met, if you remember, we met at the Solo House

in L.A. Yes.
And I didn't know you. You were actually, I think, with someone.
I was with that. You know who I was with, that situationship person that I was with.
Yeah, you were with whatever.

You were someone. I was with a friend, a male friend.
Yes. And you came up to me and you're like, you're so fabulous.
Blah, blah, blah. I didn't come up to you.

Oh, okay. I almost said his name.

The situationship guy came up to you and started talking to both of you. Right, he started talking to us.
Yeah, he started talking to both of you.

And then I asked for your, because I asked why you did. And you said, oh, I'm the owner president of Zen Arts.

And I immediately looked at your Instagram, like, oh, I want to hit him up because I want to work with him. Yeah.

But I think it was always just friendship. No, no, I think you initially you're like, if you want to go on a date, I did not.
Yes, you did.

You said, if you want to go on a date, I'm totally interested in going on a date.

And I said, you know,

you're not really my type, but I'm down to hang out. We never had, you're talking about somebody else.

You don't remember

putting it out there. I did not put it out there a little bit.
Yeah,

I still have our okay. We're gonna check after the podcast because we didn't

You have the text thread from the very first I have the text thread I'm sure there's something in there. I swear to God

I have the text thread. I said hi Doug.
How are you doing? We met at the Soho house and By the way, I saw your Instagram and I immediately started talking because I want to be your social.

I wanted to be your social media manager. And then you asked me, I'll tell you what the story was, but I do have the thread.
I can prove it. Okay, okay, we're two sides of this.

Then you said to me, oh, do you have any girlfriends to introduce me?

And then, remember at the time I thought about Aaliyah? No, no, no, yo, no, but what you said, what you said was, I'm single. No, that's what you said.

No, you're right. You're right.
You're right. I did it.
Because I was like, hey, you seem amazing. Do you have any single girlfriends? And you were like, I'm single.
I didn't.

And I was like, cat, come on.

I know you've you've got some single girlfriends. Okay, we're going to look at the thread, but I swear to God.

We never.

We're going to do a follow-up episode

to clarify. Yes, guys.
Because in my recollection, it was.

Let's bet $100 on it. Okay.
$100.

Listen, I don't know. And we don't have to do that.

If it's not there, it doesn't mean it didn't happen either, though. No, I have the thread.
I didn't have. I'm telling you.
This is why I started this episode with this conversation.

Because from the get-go, I thought you were like super nice. I love your work.
I think you're very talented. You're an artist.
We're going to talk about all of that.

But same, I didn't have the vibe like I want to date you. I had the vibe I wanted to be your friend.
And I was really like, you know, very tangled up in that situationship.

I mean, regardless, we got through that very quickly. Like, it was like a mouthful.
But it didn't have to be

something. It wasn't me.
We're going to go through those text messages and you're going to pay me $100.

You're going to pay me a hundred. Because we got through it so quickly, you don't remember it.
You're going to pay me $100.

Okay.

Okay.

So we're going to show up on your screen over here we're gonna show up next podcast of who had to pay who yes who confirmed but i swear to god i did not never wanted to go on a date with you with all the respect i love you and adore you but i think you're wrong on this i think it was somebody else no no

but anyway

it was very simple it was just kind of you just said hey i'm single

do you have any single folks i did set up

because i wasn't yeah you were technically single well okay you're wrapped up in things, but you were

on the dating apps at that time too, because I saw you

at the same time. I was like, I think on Bumble or something.

And

for many years ago, because I've not been on a dating app in a long time. No, I'm not.
And we'll talk about that too. Because now I'm like, oh, should I go back on a dating app? Yeah, of course.

We have a bunch of people. The best thing I've ever did is not being on the dating apps in the sense of not swiping.

But there was a moment around that same time where I swiped, I was swiping, and I saw you in your profile.

And you're saying, so you're going to say you weren't single, but at the same time, you were actively

for sure because I was, as you know, we're not going to say his name, but I was in a very horrible, complicated situation.

I knew the guy wasn't the right guy for me, and I was kind of falling for him, and I was trying to meet somebody else so I could get out of it. So I agree.
I was on the dating apps.

I didn't want to date you. I wanted to introduce you to some friends.
It never worked out.

But the good news is the best thing the situationship ever did for me is that we ended up meeting each other and we became really close friends and we did work together and turns out we're neighbors, which really helps, right?

And we're like a block from each other. I love your dog.
You like my dogs. And, but before we finally do the entire episode arguing,

because I know I'm right.

The bottom line. She's not right.
She's not right.

And he's looking at the camera. He's like, she's Marvin.

I'm right.

I have to think, where are you going to take me with the hundred bucks, but whatever. But

we are proof that guys and girls can have an amazing friendship. Yes.

So I just wanted to demystify this silly myth out there because so many guys they write to the pod and they're like, no, I'm always going to try to flirt with my girlfriend.

And the girls are like, I don't want to have guy friends because the guy's always going to try to sleep with me. But that's not the case.
No.

I mean, I just had lunch yesterday actually with two women that I've known, you know, that are friends of mine, that are super gorgeous, super talented, very fashion driven women i mean these girls are hot we we're friends like we had lunch yesterday we hung out we hang out you know occasionally we'll have dinner parties we you know there's those lines are never crossed and we compliment each other all the time it's like oh you're hot you're hot like i appreciate this and we talk about dating and like you know they talk about the guys they're dating and they're on the dating apps or what they're not finding or what they would like and like i've been going through a breakup and i'm talking to them about that.

It's like we kind of just share our relationship, you know, status and what's going going on. And I don't know, I really do appreciate the women that I'm friends with.

And I think as I get older, I just can't have every woman in my life be someone I'm trying to pursue or date.

Like I appreciate the women that are in my life that are friends that I can confide in, that I can like see a female perspective from, that I can just spend time with.

It's not me chasing them to try and have sex with them or date them. I love that you said that because I feel the same way.

For some reason, I really get along with guys because I think, unfortunately, many times, you know, women are caddy, right?

They're jealous of each other or they want to get the your boyfriend la la la whatever I love talking to my guy friends because it's a male perspective it's always different from the female perspective and in your case the other way around although I have to say parents you know I'm gonna say that as your friend you don't listen when it comes to the dating thing it's a little complicated because you want

my point of view like the woman's point of view but you continue doing the same shit

yeah so you know that's one thing I'm going to say. Like, maybe you should, like, listen a little more.
Yeah. You know, I mean, dating in Los Angeles is not an easy thing.
Right?

Like, and it wasn't easy when I was 25. It's not easy now.
You know, it's like dating is just not easy. And it's, and there's a lot of,

I think

being a man

who has their shit together. And, you know, I've got...
I've got several, I have a lot. I'm doing well, and I've got a really nice life.
And I feel very fortunate in a lot of ways.

And at the same time, like the amount of stuff you have to filter through as a man in LA with women, it's very difficult. And vice versa.
But yeah, and we're going to talk about that.

But let's rewind the tape a little bit for people that don't know you. Let's explain, because you said, oh, yeah, you are always around so many beautiful women.
You have such a magical life.

So let's give everybody a little bit of your background.

You were an artist. You started this fabulous company called Zen Arts Luxury Entertainment.
Tell us, like in a nutshell, how you got there.

uh you are a fire eater i think well a long time ago i oh i'm a fire i am a fire dancer it's a little different when you're eating fire i would never eat fire okay so you never ate the fire i would dance i would dance with fire yeah like kind of like cirque du soleil burning man you know like dancing with different tools on fire yeah i think it goes further back for me is that i was always an artist and I started playing music professionally when I was 10 years old.

So I think as a child, I was always going to be an artist and it just manifested, the mediums manifested in different ways.

Like it might have been a saxophone or a guitar, and then it was a fire, it was fire dancing.

And now it's kind of, I think, evolved into me art directing and producing and directing full-scale entertainment and shows that are runway ready, cirque de sole-esque, dance-oriented, choreography, costumes, design, art design, set design.

I mean, all these things kind of piled into like the art direction of an entire sort of production and show versus like one tool, one thing on stage.

But it's been a journey for me, I think, since I was a child being an artist. How long ago did you start Zen Arts? Zen Arts, we started it in 2008.
So it's been around for quite a long time.

And it's super well known. I know you guys create this crazy multi-million dollar parties, weddings, luxury events, correct? You do every.
Yeah, I've done theater stuff.

I've worked with Beyonce and Madonna and done stuff with Cirque de Soleil and I've had my own theater shows and then I've done private events and corporate events and one-offs.

Like we did a big party in LA a couple nights ago that was like a private event. And then I'm doing right now in talks to do a dinner show in Vegas.

There'll be a residency at one of the bigger hotels there for a year versus like we did a show in Reno last year for six months. And it's kind of, there's a lot.
It's a lot.

You know, it's like from private events to could be like, I'm just doing, we just booked a wedding. in the Canary Islands in a few months, you know, off of Spain.

And then, yeah, stuff in Vegas, stuff in LA, stuff in New York, stuff in Miami.

So it's always kind of evolving, but it's high-end entertainment that's customized generally to either a show or a stage or some private sort of venue.

Yeah, I've been to a few of your events with you, and they're always like to die for.

Like we were talking before the podcast started, we went to the record label New Year's party like a couple years ago, I think. Empire records.
Empire records for the Grammys.

Yes, yeah, for the Grammys. Yeah, I don't know why I thought it was New Year's.
And basically, they hire you to do the entertainment.

So you had those girls that dance in what you call the lollipops, right? Aerialists, yeah. Aerialists.
It's like super sexy stuff. You have acrobats all over the party.

And that's the kind of stuff that you do. We've been to a lot of other events.
We've been to that super famous girl. What's her name? That did the birthday party in a mansion.

Chloe. Chloe, yeah.
Yeah, I don't remember Chloe's last name. I know.
I'm like, she has the luckiest handle for Instagram in the world because it's just Chloe. Oh, that's her handle.
I don't know.

Not even Chloe Kardashian has the handle. It's hers.

So she has like almost 5 million followers now.

But that was a fabulous party as well.

Yeah, and so just so people can picture in their heads, but of course, I'm going to put the link of his website, Instagram, here on this episode so you guys can go and see the videos so you can like, you know, illustrate what we're talking about.

But for example, if if somebody wants to throw a super high-end, fabulous birthday party and they want to put mermaids in the pool, you do that.

If they want gorgeous dancers dancing by the bar, you do that. Whatever a person dreams in terms of entertainment, you can come up with it.
Yeah.

We do a lot of music and choreography and dancers and costume design. And yeah, we customize everything.

We just did an event actually was really nice in Orange County for a billionaire client of ours. And

the theme was one night in Bangkok. So it was a Thai theme where we built a temple over the pool and covered the pool.
And it was a Thai temple.

And, you know, we created all this different entertainment from like singers and live music to dancers to specialty acts and fire dancing and different things.

It was, you know, revolved around the theme of Thailand and One Night in Bangkok with all the costumes are very specific.

And so that kind of stuff's really fun for me where it's kind of a one-off and we get to customize the entire thing. It's like putting on a Broadway show in someone's house, you know, for

one night for a million dollars. Oh my God.
A million bucks for a party. Holy cow.
I mean, for the entertainment. For the entertainment.
Party is probably more like three to five million. Yeah.

Oh, my God. That's crazy.
Yeah, we're going to get there. I'm going to ask about the cost and all the crazy shit.

But so just explaining, this is why you're always around gorgeous people because, of course, you have a lot of dancer friends, a lot of, and these girls like have, obviously, they have insane bodies.

They're so beautiful.

So it's like a magical world that you live in i mean i think there's this mis misconception that like i'm either dating or sleeping with right all these women that i'm creating art with which is not true which is not the case at all like i mean a lot of the women i work with are half my age first of all yeah and they're all it's a very familial safe environment so for me it's like if i'm working with a bunch of dancers and they're 20 years old that the you know we're creating art together it's more my vision of what i need to be creating it's not me trying to get in their pants so I'm not dating these girls, and it might seem like that.

And it's probably fairly intimidating for some women that might come into dating with me of like, oh, you're surrounded by all these women all the time.

Like, you're the world of like my social media looks very sexy. And that's just not the case.
It's not like that.

I mean, you don't even do your personal social media for yourself. It's really just the social media for the company, right? You're selling

the events, but I would think that a girl should date you. And we were talking about it because of the breakup you're going through.

I think a woman for you has to be someone really confident in their skin and just they trust you, period. Yeah.

Right? If it's somebody like with an insecure personality that like if you're in a party or an event or you travel, like you said, you go to Las Vegas, you were in New York for Halloween, same stuff.

If they think every single time you're doing this multi-million dollar event, you're going to be banging a dancer.

It's never going to work. Yeah.

I think too, I don't know that people that aren't in entertainment don't understand like how much work and focus it takes, whether it's like to be a stage performer or a musician, part of a band, or to have a show, like a theater show, like Cirque de Soleil, or to be working with like Beyoncé.

Is that like everything's it's a lot of discipline and it's a lot of work and there's a lot of training that goes involved. And it's not as much of a party as it might seem, you know, for us.

I think, you know, we create, I work and create some of the most luxurious parties with some of the most like lavish venues and locations all over the world. But for us, they're creating that art.

It's about us expressing who we are and what we're doing. It's not about drugs and partying and sex.

Right. It's like backstage is not what you might think it is.
Yeah, I agree.

I think maybe people that are not in the entertainment industry, they have a much harder time understanding the life of an artist and the long hours and the crazy schedules that we have.

So maybe wouldn't it be easier for you to date somebody who is in this world as opposed to somebody who is not?

I mean, yes and no. It's like, I do think, like, for me, it's nice to, I appreciate being with an artist too, because I love art.
Yeah.

But also, like, for me to be with a woman, the woman needs to be spiritually conscious and aware and have a good handle on who she is.

And I can't be with someone who's partying and who's living a sort of rock star lifestyle in the sense of like on the road all the time.

Or like it's hard for me to date a like i don't know if i could date a dancer you know it's because they're always busy yeah or they could be on tour tomorrow right so it's like these these you know to be a professional dancer in los angeles you're auditioning every day and then you know you may or may not get a job tomorrow but then next week you might be on tour yeah you know with usher for six months or a year or two years and there's no that's not gonna not happen right so it's like it it's kind of like a not it's not a very stable environment but at the same time like these dancers are very young and they're like this is what they want to do and there's a short window of doing that and i don't know that anyone in that world's like setting themselves up to be in a long-term relationship right but for me it's like that that world so yeah i mean i do appreciate and i have had some really good relationships with artists and i do appreciate at least someone that needs to appreciate art understands art enjoys art whether they're creating it or not certainly makes more sense for me than being with somebody that's totally disconnected from fashion and art and music.

Same for me. Because those are all super important to me.
Yeah, same for me. So now you're single again.

You were going through a tough breakup because you were engaged, right? You thought that's it. You literally put a ring on a finger of this person and it didn't work out.

And now you're like picking up the pieces. Yeah.

Now I'm back in the game. You're back in the game.
And I think personally, that's the best way to mend a broken heart is to be back in the game and keep trying to find the right person for you.

That's what I think, you know. But you were mentioning that you didn't do the dating apps for a long time.

What do you think is the most chaotic or the most difficult part in terms of, you know, being single and trying to date again?

I mean, I think for me, and I'm not really doing a lot of that. Like, I'm just like just now recently single, so I'm not out setting up a lot of dates.

And I think, but the challenges are, at least in a city like Los Angeles, i don't know how it is in new york or san francisco but we're in our own bubble we're disconnected in a lot of ways are segregated and you know we're kind of in our own world so it's like where like i'm not going to a bars or i'm not if i'm at an event i'm usually involved in the event so i'm not like you know consciously meeting people at an event And then I'm working all the time.

So, and I'm going, I'm sleeping and going to bed and working out and taking care of my body. So the things, the schedule is pretty rigorous.
So where do you meet somebody in the midst of all that?

I mean, the dating apps are an option. It's not something I'm doing right now.
It's something like people have been suggesting and I've done in the past. And

the problem with the dating apps for me is that it's just this window shopping of like swiping on women.

And I think for me, it's like if I was going to go, if I was going to do that again, it would need to be with more intention and a little bit more clarity and like actual, like,

like, for instance, in the past,

when I was on a dating app, I probably put an age range from 22 to 40, 40. Which is a bad idea.
Yeah, well, I wouldn't do that now.

Now it would be like, I don't know, 35, yeah, to 45 or something, right? Like, I wouldn't like, I wouldn't even want to be dating women in their 20s. No, I agree.
We talked about that.

I think, you know, if you're putting 22 or something,

very unlikely you're going to meet a good match in terms of being in a relationship with. Yeah, so you got to be a little more focused.

Well, with the algorithm, I think, like, if the age range is 22, then I'm getting girls, you know, that are in bikinis, you know, on private jets or in yachts in San Trope or whatever, and I'm swiping on that because it looks good in a photo.

Yeah.

And then all of a sudden, the algorithm's only showing me these girls that are like hitting me up and wanting to, you know, wanting either their rent to be paid for or wanting sugar daddies or, you know, wanting to be taken care of or don't have jobs or just flat out broke or want to be models.

So that's what we were saying before we started recording. That the number one complaint of most men, always, always, always.

I've been doing this podcast for four years now, guys, and it's always the same thing.

Number one complaint of guys through dating apps is that so many women hit them up for money right away, right up front.

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I mean, I think the dating apps, like, have, there's a lot of, there's just straight up hookers all over the dating apps.

And so the dating apps are kind of flooded with like this sort of thing, right? Whether it's straight up girls that are hookers or girls that are just looking for sugar daddies or whatever.

And I don't.

Other than like really being intentional and like maybe not swiping as much. Like, I don't know.

Someone told me the league is an app that they send you like four or five people a day right I gave you the but how many people do they send you a day three okay so three you got three options but that may not be bad like because even if even if there's a hundred options yeah you probably should only be swiping on three options yeah because the problem is at least as a guy and me I could just spend all day swiping on these apps and then before you know you spend a couple hours on one app and you've swiped on like 50 women.

And so then the algorithm gets messed up because you got to be peek here, you know? Yeah, because if you're not, then the algorithm is going to send you

the wrong type of thing, and you're going to get caught up in all this shit that's out there. Yeah.
But have you had when you were using the data apps, did that ever happen to you?

Like that a girl sends you a message and

even before you guys meet and like asks, because that's what I've been hearing from a lot of guys that even before the first date, they're like, hey, well, you have to bring me a gift on a first date.

Oh, yeah. I've gotten all that before.
Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God.
Like, I'll go out with you, you know, but bring me a gift or, you know,

how much, you know, can you afford me tonight?

Can you afford me? I mean,

I've had more

situations where I've taken somebody out to dinner.

in the past and everything's been fine and the and i i didn't pay the girl any money or anything maybe we went for a nice dinner and it cost three hundred dollars for dinner yeah i'm like she's making out with me at dinner or by the end of dinner and then she wants to go on another date And then she asks, like, you know, oh, by the way, I'm looking to be taken care of.

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I think women are doing themselves a huge disservice doing that. There's a lot of that just in NLA.
I know. There's a lot.
I don't think it's just in LA. Yeah.

I don't know, because I hear that from like

every place on earth. I get messages.
We get messages from people everywhere everywhere in the United States. We get messages from people from other countries.

Anybody that uses the dating apps, if you talk to guys, you can like talk to a guy in France. You can talk about Brazil.

All the Brazilian guys complain, like, oh my God, all these girls want something from me. You know, and I think it just, yeah, like you said, even if they're not horse, but it makes you look horrible.

Like, you, you're just meeting a guy and you're asking him for gifts and money. Hmm.

Maybe it depends on the app too. Like, I tried the Raya app a few years ago and like that's the app that's like exclusive.

And every, I have a bunch of friends on that app now.

And they're like, oh, you know, you have to be vetted and you have to be referred. And I don't know how it is now because this is years ago.

But like when I, when I got on this, this app, Raya, they had to vet you by your social media. Yeah.
So you couldn't even be on. Well, you had to be referred, first of all.
And then you had to have.

like a significant social media presence to be accepted on that. Yeah.
And at the time, I don't have a personal Instagram, right? So my Instagram is Zen Arts. So I got referred.
I applied.

They're like, well, no, you don't have an Instagram. And then I basically made a case, like, no, this is me.
This is my Instagram. I can show you everything to show you that this is my social media.

I don't have a personal Instagram. And they accepted me on the app.
And then I think what I found was that, at least at that time, it was like filled with all the wrong girls for me. Because

I was swiping on the girls that are Instagram models and, you know, like look great in all these fancy photos like girls that have fashion and G-string bikini photos or whatever and so I quickly like these girls that I would go on dates with or meet were like looking for sugar daddies looking for celebrities Yeah, like looking to be celebrities themselves, you know like because they wanted like, you know to gain more followers themselves.

It was like exactly the girl I don't want to be with. So I had to delete that app.
I couldn't be on that dating app. Same.
Raya for me. It's the same thing.
A few years ago, I tried it.

The reverse side, of course, all the guys there, there want to be actors, they want to be musicians, you know, a lot of them are like unemployed, but they look good because they have like a nice Instagram with all kinds of modeling pictures.

I'm like, that's exactly the kind of people that I'm not interested in going out with at all. And there are some...

famous people in there, both women and men, but a lot of actors, but they don't want a relationship. They just want to

have quick sites

on it. They're even on it.

Because like I have a couple of, I had a couple of friends at the time that were celebrities, women and female, I mean female and male, where like their, their, their profiles were on the app and they were never on the app.

They're like, yeah, I don't even know. I'm not even, I'm not even on that app.
I think some people like they might have created a profile, but they were never on it.

Or like the app somehow kind of got them, you know.

I think maybe they are, but they just want like a quick fling or something, you know? Maybe. I just, all the attractive like celebrities that I know don't really need to go on a swiping app

to like get attractive women.

And then the guy, a couple of my male friends that are on the app, like I've seen some of the women they go out with, like I've met them and I've heard the stories and like I've never heard anything good.

Like all my friends that have been dating girls off the Raya app, it's like a disaster. Because listen, but that's one thing too, right? That I want to talk about.

You and your friends, probably, but you do that.

I don't know if you still do it, but anyways, you go on on these apps, and the girl that you guys take on dates, you know, are not the girls that would be good for a relationship.

But you take them out because they're sexy, they're beautiful, very likely you're gonna have good sex quickly.

But you guys know that that's not gonna lead to a relationship, but you still do it and you keep dating the same pattern of girl. I've been like that in the past, it's not what I would do now.

Yeah, in the past, the version of me that was dating in the past, you know, partying,

drinking, sex, rock and roll, that kind of like that person was like, yeah, I know this is not going to be my wife, but I'm going to take this girl out on a date from the dating app. Right.

But I don't know if I was good. If I was good, whenever I get to that, if I'm going to be on a dating app, I would do it with much more attention.
Yeah.

I would screen girls way more, you know, considerably. I wouldn't go on dates all the time.
I wouldn't, it would be very rare that I go on a date. I would screen the person more heavily.
I don't know.

I'm just still not. I'm just still not there because I think I'm just scared of having to swipe on photos on my phone to consider someone.

But, you know, I've had a couple of friends that are doing matchmaking, which I haven't done. But matchmaking is like a fortune.
Well, yeah, yeah.

I mean, my friends are a couple of the companies they're working with. They're paying 10, 15, 20 grand.
I'll tell you, you know, I've interviewed. pretty much every matchmaker out there.

They all have like their little crazy theories and everything.

I never had a great experience with matchmakers because they all try to match me because they've been on the podcast and I don't think they do a great job.

I'm not sure as a guy, and no disrespect to them, I would pay this kind of money to, you know, for a service. But I mean, it depends how badly we have to do it.

I probably have three or four friends that have like paid this kind of money. I hope they're not.
And none of my friends, it's worked out for. That's what I'm saying.

They keep talking about other people they know that it's worked out for, that somehow they've been convinced. Like one of my friends has tried it and he's had no success.

I mean, they do send him really good quality girls. And it's like, okay, like they'll send him this girl who's like a Stanford grad and is a CEO of some company.

But there's just something that doesn't work out. It doesn't make sense.
Like nothing works. I don't think they do a good job

figuring out if the two people really match and want the same things. You know what I mean? It's kind of like luck.
Because if you pay them, they have a database of girls.

So they got to pick from that database and they promise you, usually that's how the matchmakers work. They promise you three or four dates

and so they have to deliver so whoever is on that database they have to do as best as they can you know what I mean I mean I'm sure they have their rate of success but for me it honestly never ever ever they've sent me on like a

half-assed decent date

I mean my only my only personal interaction with it with a with a matchmaker was like a couple years, a few years ago, maybe right before COVID.

It was like someone approached me that was a matchmaker, and they had a girl that was one of their clients. It was a woman who was paying all this money.

Very, very wealthy woman.

And they found me

and they said that

I was a potential matchmaker. Wasn't she in Salt Lake City or something? IB, I'm not getting into where she was from.
Okay, but she was out of town. Yes.
I remember that lady.

Yeah. And they wanted, she was going to fly in to meet me, blah, blah, blah.
And like, they, I don't know, for some reason, they, they found me.

Just like they find anyone i'm sure right the match angers i'm sure they're scouring social media and whatever but they found me and they're like we have the perfect girl for you and i'm like you're a match anger like no no you don't have to pay she's already paying us but we want to set up a date with you guys and i remember that yeah yeah so i mean that's my only experience but it didn't work no no it wasn't it was not a match at all no no no no but we're friends we had her and i had spoke and we're friends now and what nothing happened between us it just wasn't like the right the right fit but yeah yeah, I guess whatever she was paying didn't work out for her either.

But we're friends. We became friends.
There you go.

And another thing that matchmakers do that I personally really don't like and disagree with, and including many of them that have been on the show, you guys can go listen to the episodes and make your own conclusions.

But they have these rules, like these absurd rules, for example. Most of them, they tell the women, like, don't have sex until

you're in a committed relationship. Like, withhold sex.
Okay. Withhold the boy.
Yeah, they even control that. What does that mean?

No, because they say it's a rue, and if we find out you had sex, we're going to kick you out, and we're completely against it. Most of them,

that's, and I think it's absurd

personally to tell someone because I almost think it's like emotional blackmail somehow.

Like one of my guy friends said, like, you're basically holding the vagina hostage because you want to date someone for six months, whatever it takes, two months, two months, three months, six months, and and not have sex until the guy looks at you and says, Oh, okay, I mean, I want to be in a committed, monogamous relationship with you.

How do you know if you don't know if you guys have sexual chemistry? I don't even think that exists. I mean, that kind of dating doesn't, I mean, not with, it doesn't work for me.
There's no way.

I mean, I could, I mean, where I'm at right now in my life is that I could go out on dates and not have sex because I'm just not, that's not what I'm rushing to do right now. Right.
But, like, months?

No, there's no way. That's what I'm saying.
I'm never rush, ever, ever, ever. But after a while, while, I want to know if the sex is good before I commit to be

with that person only. I mean, if I was like someone I'm friends with, like...

There's some women that I'm friends with, like, where we've already established we're in the friend zone kind of thing. Yeah.

And then maybe over months or years or whatever, like as friends, then there starts to turn like some attraction, you know, then maybe that could kind of manifest or grow in that way.

Totally different. But to set things up is like, I'm going on a date.
Yeah.

And it's interesting because I talked to the women I was with yesterday, my friends, they're both like wanting to take things very slow. And they're going on dates.

So like they really want to take things slow. Like they want, they want to take months and months.
They don't want to sleep with anyone right away.

And but they're on the dating apps and going on dates. And, you know, we were having this conversation of like,

Well, okay, how do you take it slow? Because like if you're on a dating app and you're going out on a date, it's like, I would respect that the woman doesn't want to sleep with me right away.

But how long is that?

How many dates am I going to take her on? Exactly. How much time am I going to spend with her? Because let's just say it turns into four dates, five dates.
Now it's a couple months. Yeah.

Well, now we're just in the friend zone. It's like,

I'm going to shut off the energy, right? If I'm really that attracted to her, I'm probably just going to move into a friendship and not really pursue anything. Yeah.

But at what point do you both feel safe and comfortable to like cross the boundary? Or you're going to end up going on a date with someone else. Right.

'Cause that that one I'cause that one's my friend now.

I'm in the friend zone. So we're gonna, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna start seeking something from someone else.
But that's what I'm saying.

This is why I disagree so much with the way matchmaker do things. I don't think it's a good idea good way to convince someone to commit with you, to being only with you, withholding sex.

I think it's just a bad game.

So you make the matchmakers think that like there's more success by withholding sex

i i well i'm just saying me i disagree you know i i you know i don't date a lot but when i date after so many dates i'm like okay we have to have sex because if the sex sucks

you know to me it's a deal-breaker i don't want to be in a relationship with someone that i don't have physical chemistry with no i mean i couldn't be with somebody like for a long period of time and not like explore the physical connection either

exactly so i don't know maybe you should go back to the dating apps. I wouldn't even know which apps at this point.
I told you you should do Bumble. Bumble is always great.
Maybe Hinge.

You know, you should try a few. Put yourself out there.
There's no new app. Like, these are apps that have been going on for so many years.

I know. There's no new apps out there that are not.
Not that I heard of. I know that, I mean, to me, Tinder is a shit show.
I don't recommend Tinder. I think it's the worst quality of people.
Yeah.

I haven't. I've never used Hinge.
Yeah, but they're very. I think Tinder in my experience.
I used to be on on Tinder years ago too, and that was better when I was traveling. Yeah.

Like Tinder in some countries, people are not using Bumble, right? So it could be like whatever, Eastern Europe, Europe, or South America or wherever they might use Tinder more.

But I mean, in my experience, but like again, my dating app experience is like five years ago or something. So I don't not sure what the dating app world looks like now.

I know you have a broken heart now, but like I said, you know, I think you need to put yourself out there because this is my opinion.

When you keep insisting on trying to be with the wrong person, which is what you were trying to do, the right person is out there trying to find you,

and you need to give them an opportunity to find you. Yeah, you got to be available.
Yeah, you have to be available and give them a chance because they don't know where you are.

They're not going to knock at your door, right? And I think there is nothing better, like once you are in a happy, wonderful, fulfilling relationship with someone that really accepts you,

it's the best remedy for forgetting the crap that did not accept you.

If it's with intention, like I wanna, yeah, I think like, of course, I want to be in a relationship, of course, I want to find like the right woman, but I also don't want to distract myself with the wrong women.

And like, I don't want to get into a habit of like, you know, like serial dating or like trying to hook up with women or partying.

Like, it's like, okay, yeah, of course, I want to be in a relationship. So, like, that needs to be with intention.
It needs to be clear. Needs to be like, I need to screen these people more carefully.

You have to be very picky. And I think I told you one thing that I do.

I always say, like, do you want to do a video date?

Because if the person tells you no, they just want you to take them to dinner or something, they don't want to do a video date or talk on the phone with you, usually it's like a red flag.

Like they have something to hide. If they have nothing to hide, so it's like we meet and then it's like, okay, let's talk on FaceTime or video.
Yeah, I mean, I would do that.

Exactly. I don't think I'd jump into a date with anyone that I didn't feel super comfortable with.
Right. Who I hadn't at least seen videos.
Yes.

Like even if I didn't do a FaceTime video, I definitely would need to see a significant amount of like social media videos or something.

Or send me videos.

No, I would, I don't know. I'd never, I don't think maybe 20 years ago when dating apps started or something, you know, there were surprises or you didn't know if people showed up like their photos.

I don't think now it's like, at least for me, it would be, I just wouldn't end up with someone who doesn't look like their photo or video. I mean, they may not have chemistry.

I don't know that. You know, people do that.
That's gaslighting. Is that gaslighting?

Or that's no, that's

fishing.

It's catfishing. Catfishing.
It's catfishing. It has happened.
I've never catfished in a while. It has.

I was catfished in the past. Like, I see these pictures of this guy and everything, and we text.
And then when I show up at the restaurant, I barely recognize them. I'm like,

dude, what's wrong with you? Like, they don't even have to do it. Somebody 20 years ago.
Yeah, from 2013.

So this is why after that, I'm like, no, my time is so precious. I am never going to go anywhere without like doing a video call and stuff.

Because people that are real and honest, they have no problem showing themselves, you know, telling you who they are. Yeah.

No, I mean, for me, if I was going to take you out from a dating app, I would be like, show me your Instagram. Yeah.
I'd be like, send me a video.

I probably would be a little more obnoxious about it. Like, let's FaceTime, show me a video.
Like, there's no way I'm going to take you out because I'm not going to do a coffee date.

Like, I'm just not a Starbucks. Like, let's meet.
Oh, my God. I saw some relationship coach

years ago. She was a relationship coach, and she was like, Basically, you got to play the numbers game.
Where like she was saying, the best way to

date off the dating apps is to like set up multiple coffee dates. Oh, my God.
She talked this whole thing of, like,

she likes to post up. She'd post up at like Starbucks and have like five, six dates.
Oh, my God. And she's like, you can't just go out and waste like time on dinners and drinks and blah blah blah.

This is like horrible advice.

You know, if I'm going to go on a date, I want to be at a nice dinner. She's the one who's going to be a little bit more, maybe a glass of wine.

So I'm going to screen the girl enough that I know I'm going to be okay having dinner with. No.
Now, you get to dinner, the chemistry may or may not be there. Yeah.
But I don't know.

I just, I can't remember the last time where I like, you know, met someone

I didn't know. I took out the dinner where there was like some massive surprise.

But this lady, this relationship coach, whoever he is,

a woman, yeah. Yeah, this, you know, this serial dating, like coffee shop, it just, it's like desperation.
Yeah, it seems like a lot of work to me.

It's like you're going to set up,

you're going to set down like an interview process, like right as well have applications.

Exactly, like all the other people. Yeah, like someone putting name tags on them.
I know it's like a whole thing. I couldn't do that.
Yeah, no, never. I think that's horrible advice.

Whoever this woman is, don't do it. Date with intention.
Take your time. I am a good example, right? We were talking about my situation.
I was tangled up in that for two years.

And I kept letting this wrong person come back, as you know very well. And like taking crumbs.

And if you're taking crumbs, taking crumbs, taking crumbs, it starts messing up with your self-esteem, messing up with your ego.

And then if you give yourself a chance to someone else, you might find somebody that treats you really well, and you could see yourself like in a happy, wonderful, amazing relationship.

And this is what you deserve. You know, you deserve much more than crumbs.

Yeah, no crumbs. No crumbs.
Can we do like a no crumbs party? No crumbs party. No crumbs party.
No crumbs. Invite all the single people.
No crumbs party. Yeah, we we could do like, you know what?

I saw one time on, remember Sex and the City?

I love that idea. Like, they did a party that it was all singles, and each single person should bring a single friend

to see if their single friends liked each other. That's a good idea.
Maybe we could do that. Yeah.
One of the things that I'm talking about.

I mean, I think everyone should be having dinner parties and inviting single people. Like,

I think I'd much rather have a dinner party at home, invite a few people, and then everyone's got to invite someone single. So there's like, you know, that's what I meant.

In this case, like everybody said, hey, bring a single friend. So, you never, even if hopefully, there is somebody who has chemistry with somebody else.

If not, then you just meet like a bunch of new people. Yeah, I think that's a good idea.
Yeah, but before we run out of time,

Zen Arts is doing amazingly well, right? We're in the middle of a party season,

holidays. You're planning all these incredible parties.
You plan Christmas parties, you plan New Year's parties,

birthday parties, everything under the sun, right? What is the biggest budget anyone ever ever gave you for a party?

Well, it's a really good one. I mean,

we did

a $10 million wedding

in Florida

for an Indian wedding that was pretty lavish. Wow, $10 million.

Just for entertainment or for the whole wedding? No, the whole wedding was $10 million. I mean, that's a lot.
How much for entertainment?

This is probably like a million and a half. Oh, my God.
I think it was over a million in flowers. Wow.

Yeah, we've done a couple of lavish. I mean, we've done some pretty lavish weddings, but I think the Indians are the most lavish that I've experienced.

They spend serious money. They don't spend any expense.
I hope the marriage lasts forever.

I'm not sure what the success rate is. Did anybody ever ask, do you remember the craziest thing anybody wanted in a party? And could you do it?

Yeah, I mean, we've had,

I've had so, like, there was a time kind of even before pink started flying around stadiums where someone wanted some you know an artist to fly around a stadium and we made that happen we're like with with three-dimensional flying and it's probably a couple million dollars to do this kind of rigging and kind of using this sort of sophisticated flying systems but I mean I've also been you know had clients that have asked me like you know can we have you know

six girls peeing in champagne glasses.

I get kind of a little bit of everything, you know, from like high-end and you're like, yeah, if you pay, yes, stadium stuff. But what's the answer to that? Yes.
Can they pee in the champagne gland?

Yes. Oh, I mean, yeah, we could do that.
Oh, my God.

I mean, people with money, they can get crazy, right? Yeah. I mean, yeah.
I can only imagine. I don't say to do anything that sexually overt, you know, unless it really makes sense.

But yeah, we do a little bit of everything. I can only imagine the stuff you must have seen in all the years you've been doing parties.
But it's a really fun life. It is fun.
Yeah, it's fun.

Well, thank you so much for being on Cat on the Loose. Thank you.
I am sure love is trying to find you. I'm looking.
So keep on. Yes, he's looking, ladies.

So if you're listening to the audio episode, he looked at the camera again.

If you're listening to the audio episode, don't forget to you can watch the entire video episode on our YouTube channel, Cat on the Lose podcast.

And you can see mini bits and clips of our episode on our social media.

Rio Cat on the Lose and Kat Zamuto is all over the place. And to see Doug, the Instagram is ZenArts LA, right? Zen Arts Laws.
Instagram is Zen Arts. Instagram is ZenArts.

And I mean, that's the best place to see you. There are a few pictures of you there, but not a lot.
Not a lot there at all. He's very mysterious.

But if you girls want to meet him, feel free to send me a DM and I'll hook you up. Slide into her DMs.

Or Zen Arts's DMs.

Yeah, they can. Slide into Zen Arts' DMs.
Better, better.

Juggle straight to the source. Thank you, Doug.
It was such a pleasure. And I'm sure I want $100 from you.
No, no.

You're going to buy me breakfast. Okay, we'll see.
We'll see. Guys, be safe out there, and I'll see you very soon.
Many kisses. This was fun.

Thank you, dog.

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