"Fairy Drag Queen Guinea Pig" (w/ Chappell Roan)

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Look, man.

Oh, I see.

My eye.

Oh, my.

Bowen, look over there.

Wow, is that culture?

Yes.

Goodness.

Wow.

Lost cultureistas.

Ding-dong.

Ding-dong.

Lost culturistas calling.

Wow, was that the first time we were ever out of sync?

Bodes well.

Honestly, bodes very well.

You know what I was distracted thinking about?

Uh-huh.

I'm surrounded by tops.

We've got service tops, camera tops.

publicist tops.

You.

No.

Can I reveal something about Bowen Yang?

This is the big thing that I've wanted to reveal on this podcast.

The other day in a personal text exchange.

So that's how you know it's real because we never lie to each other.

It's only ever transparent, real, honest, and more.

Bowen goes, I think I legitimately might be bi.

Which is not the same thing as being a top.

Yeah, but the girls you're talking about wanting to have sex with.

You are conflating, like

having a dick.

Okay, don't do sexual politics with me right now.

All I'm saying is Bowen has a crush on.

Go ahead, come out.

Say it.

Lucy Dacas.

But I've always had this you love like a powerful

singer songwriter lucy and i exchanged a powerful glance at forest hills this was like three years ago oh my gosh she was she was opening she and maxihatchu were opening for connor overst

and she had just got she had just done her set this is right when home video came out her album and then i just like glanced over at her and then she glanced over at me and we kind of smiled at each other and then that was it and ever since then and then obviously since then we've like talked and hung out but like there's something powerful about her She's we've talked and hung out.

It's like, did you did you watch ever watch Nobody Wants This, that thing on Netflix?

Yes.

When they kiss and that song's like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

It's like that synthy romantic pop song.

Yeah.

That played when you looked at Lucy Dacas across the room.

And don't think we ever forgot about your thing with Katie Gavin.

Oh, yeah.

That's a good love triangle.

This is my trend alert.

Here we go.

It's always with a gay woman.

Wow.

And maybe there's a safety in that.

It's like, well, there's no stakes in this.

So I can safely from a far pine.

So I can't wait to see how this episode turns out.

Anyway.

Because

this actually is a huge moment in history because I can't believe this is true.

But I think I actually have two things on record on this podcast.

One was there's an episode where I literally go to you.

Have you listened to Driver's License by Olivia Rodrigo?

I was like, who's this?

And you go, what is that?

This is when it first came out.

And that's on record.

And I believe me me bringing up Chapel to you is on record on this podcast.

That is also on record on this podcast as well.

It's on the, it's on record for a lot of people who listened to you and they were like, I'm going to check this girl out.

It was late 2022 when I first sort of heard her live.

But then, no, but then it was,

no, it was April 2023, I think.

You were at the Fonda.

And I remember it was a special evening because you could feel the energy.

And I remember she sang Pink Pony Club.

And then she was saying the Pink Pony Club is here.

And I was like, oh, wow, it really feels like it is here.

Like the LA show.

It's about LA, etc.

That was a really special night.

And I left that being like, she's, she's one of, she's the one.

She's one of the ones.

And now she's here.

She's a Pisces legend.

She's a Grammy winner.

Everyone, welcome.

Hey.

Hey, thank you.

You won Album of the Year at our Culture Awards before your album was even out.

And I've always wanted to ask you how you felt about that.

I was laughing really, really hard.

I was like, that is,

that makes sense.

It was like, that is so funny.

I'm dumb.

It was.

It's so silly.

It was earned.

I remember the song that changed everything for me.

I was like, wait, what the fuck was casual?

Do a lot of people say that?

I didn't expect that.

I like literally, casual was the biggest bitch to get done.

Really?

It was like a lot of tense moments because I was like, I think it should be huge.

I think it should be a really big pop song.

And my co-writer was like, I don't think it, I think it's supposed to be sad yeah and so i was like wrong and that's happened so many times about my songs so like it was it's like even the subway you know like i'm just i was like nobody's gonna give a fuck about this like i don't and now people are clamoring

so like casual to me i was like i'm just gonna put it out and just not even care because i am like synth pop girl this is not super synth pop heavy uh-huh um but people liked it and now i love it i always like things more when i like it so you don't think it's both like us like a like a moody song that also builds to like this grandiosity because i that's that's what i love about it i think i get nervous writing songs that aren't like beat heavy and like dance forward um instead of it's kind of like a

wallowing in misery type of vibe.

So I hear that.

I mean,

when I left your show when I first saw you, I was like, I feel like the only way to to get it across is like, it feels like, and this is lame to do this, but it feels like Kesha meets like Annie Lennox.

You have this like fun, you came out in this like shit blonde wig, and then you came back out with your, with your hair, and you were like, it's me, Chapel, Chapel Rhone.

And we were all like laughing because there's like aware, an awareness, and there is like, this is before you were calling what you do, drag, but there was such a huge drag element.

You had a drag performer open up.

Yeah.

And, but yet you have this like haunting, gorgeous, like ethereal voice that I was like, I don't think we have this out there.

So that's what I meant by like the Kesha meets Annie.

That's so sweet.

I mean, those are icon girls.

Yeah.

But that's fun casual on a song like that.

And it's funny to hear you say you're like more comfortable doing the beat-heavy stuff because what really like took me, and maybe this is just the place I was in, but was coffee, was Kaleidoscope, was like those moments that are so like important and deep in your show.

Thank you.

It is like so different live.

You can really, really feel the

ballads.

Because I'm actually better at performing ballads like than I am pop songs just because like I have a ballad voice way more suited for it than a

but um so that's why I feel like the ballads go so heavy live because I sound better.

Well,

it's like it's it is just like it's almost like a different singer.

You know what I mean?

Because I guess it's like when you're needing to do the pop thing, do you find yourself being like, okay, now I'm a different pop girl?

Yeah.

Yeah.

You have to like, I can't sing Kaleidoscope and then go, you know what they say?

Never waste a Friday night on a first, you know, it's really,

it is a different, you have to like lock into different characters, I feel like, um, for each song, especially like Makeinka's Karma is like, I'm less worried about hitting the notes rather than just.

like screaming as hard as I can.

You know, right.

That was an important song for me at the time.

I was like, oh, wow, this is.

It's an important song for me every day.

I feel like.

I'm like, I actually still feel pissed.

Like, I, I don't know if I'll ever get over it.

I don't know if I'll, if I'll ever not be mad.

Is it, is it kind of the song's fault, though, that you're locked into this, like, sentiment?

Yeah.

And that's what's so hard about writing about exes is because you're locked.

And especially.

If you hate them.

And like, I don't, luckily, like, I don't hate a lot of my exes.

I have so many songs about my exes, about different people, about people I never dated, but still in love with.

And I don't hate them, but it's really hard to sing songs about people that you hate because you still hate them.

Everybody gets two in life.

How many do you have?

How many exes?

That you hate?

That you fucking hate.

People I fucking hate.

X's that you fucking hate.

I think everyone gets it.

Is it more than two?

Just just

greater than or less than two.

I feel like high school people just don't count.

Well, you know what?

Your feelings were real, but it doesn't count.

My feelings were real, but it doesn't count.

So one.

Okay.

That's odd.

It's normal.

Only one.

But I've dated like a lot of dumb people, but you know, that's not their fault.

It's not their fault.

You almost feel bad.

It's almost like punching down and then all of a sudden they get the distinction of like having a song.

And that's also hard.

It's like, well, fuck.

You elicited such a response from me that I felt moved to write this thing.

It's like, it just, I get angry every time I

sing it.

It's real.

It's like, it's very real.

And it's, that's why it feels real about the ballads is because like I am feeling that whenever I sing coffee.

There's been so many times that I've performed coffee and I'm just like in the middle of the song.

It's like, yeah, I'm done.

Next, like, because I'm like, it's just.

Have you actually ended it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've just been like, I can't.

Yeah.

I don't want to do this.

Oh, that's so like form breaking and cool.

It's just like, it's just not worth the rest of the show, you know?

Cause like, then you, because you always do ballads like in the middle.

For me, I do.

Right.

So then it's like a loop, loop, loop, and on like a high note.

Yeah.

And sometimes I'm just like dreading it so much when like the ballad part.

People like the picture you vibe because like I have my wig on the mics thing and I drag my wig around and I make it like campy.

But I hated Picture You too because I was like, this is boring.

I'm bored.

Like I want to move around on stage without lights.

I want like the pageantry.

Yeah.

It's either like I do

a fully balanced set or I do all pop because, and that's why I like festivals because there's not enough time to do

what about when you're doing a cover, what if you're doing bad romance?

Yes.

What is what is, are you just channeling gaga?

Are you feeling, are you like finding a way in for yourself?

Bad romance, low-key, I always felt like a fraud singing.

Really?

Yes, because I was like,

oh my God.

I can't live up to what I think I should be in my fucking head for this song.

Like I like,

and that's like the hardest part of like covering songs that are so iconic.

It's like people

associate bad romance with like

pure, it was the biggest fucking pop song ever.

Like, and I think I just,

I do covers because I want to feel like what's in my body.

Like, what, what will it feel like in my body to sing bad romance in front of a crowd?

And like, that is the closest I'll ever know to what Gaga maybe feels.

Like, like, I'm like, okay, this is how it feels to like rage on stage to bad romance.

Or like, this is what it feels like to sing Barracuda in front of like 50,000 people.

And so I can like leech off of the other artists' experiences in that way, you know?

So,

but bad romance is different because I was just like,

She

everything.

She's everything.

I can't match it.

That's what I realized.

It's like, I can't match it.

But does the feeling of I kind of can channel what it feels like to be Gaga singing the song, does that compete with the fraudulent feeling?

Or is that the same thing?

It's like even Gaga's putting on a persona when she sings that song.

I just think that

I can't cover every song I want to.

I think it's like reserved.

Yeah.

Like, you know,

and that's the coolest thing about pop.

It's like, you can't fucking

ballads like are more attainable, but pop

Yeah,

you know what's funny is it's like with good luck, babe, it's so hard to sing.

And like you do see a lot of people taking cracks at it, but you have one of those songs now where it's like, that's a chapel roan song.

Do you feel like that?

Bitch, I can't even sing it.

It's hard.

I can't sing.

I cannot sing it in the original key.

Like

in a set of songs.

If I was just doing it only,

maybe.

Yeah.

But like, I don't even, when people sing my songs, I'm just like, I feel bad because like like that,

I know how hard, like, it.

I have some passion for you.

I was just like, good luck.

I don't even care if you fucking mess up because like, thank you for trying.

Because I can't even nail it.

Like, and also, like,

I can't sing fucking in pitch.

Like,

like, I am maybe

70% of the time, but the songs are just that fucking hard.

Yeah.

And like, it is cool that sometimes, you know, I mean, it feels good.

It feels good.

Yeah.

it feels good to be like,

Yeah, that's my song.

Yeah.

And I, you, so is it like when you're, when you're recording, is it,

I guess, how do I ask this question?

From a place of technique?

Yeah.

Are you, do you have the song out and you're like writing it straight through with like Dan or Justin, whoever you're writing with?

And then you can like play it on the piano altogether?

Or are you going back and like revisiting different sections of the song?

Because that one really feels like it's so many different things.

That was

well, it was originally called Good Luck, Jane.

Right.

And like

it, we rewrote it.

It was such a, it was so annoying.

The best songs take

the longest, except Pink Pony Club.

That took one day to do this.

And like, Good Luck, Babe, we recorded the entire song four times because we, I could not just like find a key that made sense.

Yeah.

And so I feel like for Naked in Manhattan, it took two years to write the post chorus, which is like touch me, touch me, touch me, touch me.

So we like come out usually with the chorus or like the song title, and then we'll like create melodies around that.

And then we'll refine from there of like the lyrics.

And it's always the first edit.

We hardly ever,

ever.

The only song that I used the first draft off was Kaleidoscope.

Oh, wow.

That's so beautiful, though.

Thank you.

But like everything else is edit after edit.

And like, you know,

some of these it feels like shit.

Yeah.

It has to.

Some phenomenon felt like shit to write.

Really?

Yes.

And that's crazy, too, because it's such a fun song, but it's like you're like banging your head against the wall being like, fuck.

Because it was like, this is, that puzzle was hard.

It doesn't make sense.

Like, I was

banging my head against, I've been banging my head against the wall with the subway because

I'm, it just, songs can work live.

Certain things can work live and they do not work in the studio right or like for like my kink is karma like every performance I scream really loud at the end of the song I don't do that in the recorded version doesn't fucking work same with the giver it did not work like first of all I said the wrong thing on SNO I was supposed to say something else like I got nervous and said some like fucked up the wording it kind of like makes sense 80%

but what was the wording like you know like like the country boys can't treat a woman right only woman only

It was like only

a woman knows how to treat a woman, right?

Or something.

Yeah, it was just, it just didn't, it was like almost made sense.

But also, I was like, SNL, it was so insane.

Yeah.

Like, it was just so scary.

Your whole career, your whole career, everyone says nothing is harder than SNL.

Nothing is harder than SNL.

Sound mixing.

It's all that.

It's like, but also like that it is so live and there is no,

like your band is live.

That's like the scariest part.

It's like the movie magic, like girl, it's rare that you see anyone fucking playing like anything for real on TV.

Like it is not most of the time for real.

Yeah.

Because it just doesn't work like that.

It works live, but not like on TV, televised.

It just, the sound doesn't work that way.

Right.

So like, I was just, I was so fucking stressed.

So I'm like, the fact that I even performed the giver and like made it through is amazing.

That's so great.

But I know that like, it is so awesome to see like everyone be like, where the fuck is the bridge?

And I'm like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Do you not think I tried?

Yeah.

Do you not think I, do you not think I tried over and over and tried different sayings and tried different what the bridge was the hardest thing to figure out and like Now I have like an even better idea for it live.

Like that's the other thing is like the live shows matter just as much as the songs themselves to me.

Yeah.

Because that is actually like

that's alive.

You get to mold it and grow with it and it gets to change.

And it like,

it just becomes a character in itself, just like the live performance.

Like everyone can kind of like wait for that character of the song to come out.

Because what you're talking about in terms of recording and in terms of like cracking the subway, let's say, is.

not to use this phrase again, but you have to, that's, that's locked in.

You are locked into this thing.

And that's, that's like the thing that people are going to revisit the most readily and accessibly for what it's worth.

I feel like both Pink Pony Club and the Giver on SNL were fucking major.

I was listening to the SoundCloud the next day for like weeks.

Yeah.

Like, that's, and I'm like, and then the track release, I'm like, fuck, this is so hard for me sometimes when like an artist puts out a live thing before the release and then the track comes out and I'm like, I like the live version better.

Do you know why?

Why?

I don't.

It's called Demoitis.

Demoitis.

Demoitis.

Demoitis.

Okay.

Demo.

You might fall in love with demo.

Did the demos.

So, like, what happens?

School us.

Dr.

Child.

And this is like, this is to my detriment too.

This is to every person's detriment of, like, I get a demo.

I hear it.

I play it for my friend.

And then I go back in and like work on it, play it to them again.

And they're like, oh, I just liked the other one better.

And because you have demoitis, because you've like attached so much to this,

like

to you attach memories, like you attach all of these things to this one version of the song.

It's actually not

as

good, like, as the actual recorded version, like straight up, because the song wasn't done.

There was like pitchiness all over the map.

And like,

sometimes that's magic, but it's not what I want in my life.

Yeah.

Tracks, but, or sorry, my recorded tracks, but

you fall in love with what you hear first yeah of course because you hear a different version and you're just gonna hate it because it's different yeah that's the thing I just go into new things I'm like expecting to hate it it's like okay Kaylee like you are going to hate this get past it and like look at it for what it really is and that is how I get past to releasing how I even release music.

Yeah.

Because it's like, I'm going to hate it.

Just live with it.

Like feel it and and take a step away.

Yeah.

Because like all the people who have been living with the giver on SoundCloud or whatever, of course they're going to hate it.

That is like.

They're attached.

They're attached.

And like, just because it's different, you'll hate it.

Because that's like human nature.

Of course.

You know?

So I was not surprised.

at all when people were like this doesn't sound this is losing the magic and it's like i think it has the magic i think the and that's really all that matters and also like people will just get over it.

Yeah, they will.

Because it's like, it just sounds better.

And like, for the subway, you know, it's just going to feel different.

And different doesn't always mean bad.

You just have to like really take yourself out of it and be like,

this is different and it's okay.

And now you have two versions.

And now you have two versions.

Because the SoundCloud version remains.

Yeah.

And if that's the one you love, and there'll be a third version when you come out and, you know, do that.

Do you have a performance at all these festivals coming up?

Yeah.

So it's like, it's demoitis.

Just remind yourself it's like,

like, I, I, there's so many TikTok songs that I'm like, oh my God, this is so fun.

And I didn't realize it was either a cover sped up or like something.

And then I hear the original version.

I'm like, oh, speed it up.

I'm like, yeah.

And I'm like, oh, I like the TikTok one.

And then I like go back and I'm like, actually, the artist put that out on purpose because it actually fits.

the art better.

Of course.

So I understand people were like, where is the bridge?

Of course, it was probably a man who decided that.

Oh, God.

No, baby.

I did decide that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And also, do not forget, this is a lesbian country song.

Like, this is like a big deal.

Yes.

Like, this is, for me, what I've always wanted to do.

So it may not be what you want.

Of course.

Right, right, right, right, right.

There's this like.

interesting entitle.

I'm not going to say this, but it's like, you're not customer service.

You know what I mean?

You are not there to like take in all of these complaints and like synthesize them into it can't affect your work.

I had to stop reading.

You got to stop reading.

It's probably just I had to stop.

No, I deleted Instagram and TikTok off my phone on Sunday because I was like, I actually like, if I want to protect my creative psyche, like, cause I'm writing right now.

Yeah.

Nothing.

I have to build a force field around it.

And the things, if I want to for sure have a bad day, like 100% guarantee, I read the comments.

Like, and I just have to remind myself, you know, the stove is hot.

Let's go touch it.

Yeah, it's like, okay, if you want to open these, you're not going to feel good.

Yeah.

So now it's just like, never, it's never going to be worth it.

It's never worth it.

And like, it just hurts my feelings.

I thought I would grow out of it hurting my feelings.

Build a thicker skin or something.

Yeah, I thought I would become callous to it.

And sometimes I hate that I'm not callous.

And then other times I'm like, actually thank God I have feelings about people hurting my feelings absolutely because that is like sad if I don't know maybe I'll get there one day maybe I can find a healthy medium but I don't know people like saying it's not about like my art anymore all of a sudden it's about me and how I look or how how I talk or my humor.

It's like that is the insufferable part all of a sudden and not like

the art.

And so that's what hurts my feelings.

It's like when my art, even,

you know, like with the giver, you are 100% allowed to judge it, hate it, love it, rip it apart, critique it.

Like that is the point.

Fair game.

That is fair game.

It's art.

I think like everything else, I'm like, that's outside of my art and performance.

Same with performance.

Critique it.

Like that is visual art.

Visually, like.

critique my fashion.

That's fine.

It's just when it comes to

my personality and like my mistakes that I make in public, it's like

it is ruthless.

It's remote mistakes.

Don't do that.

But the thing is, even if they are or aren't mistakes, human beings are allowed to make them.

Of course.

And I think that like one thing that people just, whether they can't reckon with it or they don't want to, because like few people feel complicit in it is it's like.

It was like unprecedented how quickly it changed for you from here to here in terms of like the amount of eyes on you and the amount of mouths flapping in regards to what you did.

So it's like, even in a world where it's like, we've seen people go from like whatever it is, like zero to 60 or overnight success, whatever that means, not like this.

Cause I remember we were at Coachella and we were like,

we were so excited at Coachella because we were like, oh, and I was with a couple of gays who didn't know who you were yet.

And that was, you know, April of 2024.

Yeah.

It was a year ago.

Meanwhile, at the end of that weekend, not only did everyone know who you were, but everyone had an opinion on you, et cetera.

And then govball was a whole other thing that was 15 20 different like think pieces and it's like that you're never gonna get you are never gonna get what you want out of that one individual human being it's impossible and i don't think there's enough awareness of that or like you know people don't take accountability for their own actions in that regard because people get excited you feel that do you guys feel that i mean we're not feeling it on your level no but every level of course every level

is a level

every level is a level

Rule of culture number 76.

Every level is a level.

But of course, and it's also, it's like when you have something, when you have like something that you've put out there that people have really connected with and people have a relationship with you in that regard, it gets harder, which is why I'm happy you just deleted the shit because you're in creative mode right now and you need to be.

Hey, everyone.

We know many of you probably have a watch list with all the streaming shows you want to see.

Well, if you haven't seen Platonic on Apple TV Plus, you need to add it to yours now.

It's hilarious.

Seth Rogan and Rose Byrne play a pair of platonic besties like Matt and I, who are as likely to cause trouble for each other as they are to support each other.

If you have seen it, you already know that.

But you might not know that season two of Platonic is out now.

This season, Rogan and Byrne deal with uncomfortably hilarious midlife hurdles, including new business ventures, weddings, and partners in crises.

And as best friends do, they try to help each other, but sometimes just make things worse.

These two are just so funny together.

I love them.

Luke McFarlane and Carla Gallo are so back this season alongside new guest starts, including some seriously funny SNL alums, Adie Bryant, Kyle Mooney, and Beck Bennett, and the fabulous Milo Mannheim.

If you haven't seen season one, catch up immediately.

And if you have, second season of Platonic is now streaming on Apple TV Plus.

Don't miss it.

We're here to tell you about Searchlight Pictures' new film, The Roses.

Perfect Couple, Ivy, played by Olivia Coleman, and Theo Rose, played by Benedict Cumberbatch, have it all.

Successful careers, a loving marriage, great kids.

But when Theo's career comes crashing down, just as Ivy's fame starts to skyrocket, a tinderbox of fierce competition and growing resentment ignites, threatening to destroy everything they've built if they don't destroy each other first.

All's fair when love is war.

For anyone who's ever been in a relationship, The Roses is a crowd-pleasing comedy.

Starring Benedict Cumberbatch, Olivia Coleman, Andy Samberg, Allison Jenny, Belinda Bromalo, Sunita Mani, Shu Tigatwa, Jamie Dimitrio, Zoe Chow, and Kate McKimmon.

From the director of Meet the Parents, Jay Roach, and the writer of Four Things, Tony McNamara.

Comedy seems to be the genre of the moment.

It's easy to see why everyone could use a good laugh.

In theaters everywhere, August 29th, get tickets now.

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I think you mean amazing.

I wanted to ask you, like, how is it going in terms of you treating yourself creatively?

Creatively, the artist's way.

I don't know if you've ever heard of it.

That book taught me how to protect my creativity and like how to be really treat myself really well and be really gentle with myself i am really good at respecting my artistry what i am not good at is respecting like my feelings outside of artistry like it's so interesting i'm like very good at being gentle with like my critiques on myself and like letting things you know it's not going to be great the first time you may have to like water it and watch it grow

um but when it comes to like me making a mistake in life it's like that's when i'm not good at like giving myself some grace or just like

whatever.

So my creativity is very

sacred.

She's sacred and healthy.

Like I just spent the whole last week doing writing and I wrote some songs I really love.

And like that's, that is magic.

The fact that I could do that amidst like the past year and the fact that I can't like do a lot of things like I used to normally and like feel normal.

That's great.

That's awesome.

It worked.

Like, it's just when it comes to like my self-confidence or comments or like you know just saying something i didn't mean or whatever how that's how like when i'm really hard on myself right but well you know what that book does early on it tells you to like picture and think back on the people early on in your life who like tried to like cut you off creatively yeah right yeah like i still i still go about this process with like one specific person this is the theater teacher this is the theater teacher or whatever this is the iconic woman in history you have to like treat them the same same way that you chapel treat your exes yeah you have to like fucking go for the jugular in your brain with these people and you and i think my thing is we have to keep doing it now now that like there are these little side quests popping up where like oh there's this person who like is being a little booger or this person's being a fucking asshole like it's a continuous thing where you like have to tell these people who make you feel like you're making a mistake which you're not

you can't even think of them as mistakes because these are just people who are trying to like end you creatively, and you have to protect them.

Yeah.

And art is like, for me, I'm such,

I do have a thick skin around like my art.

It's really hard to see something you see online and be like, oh, maybe that's supposed to be funny.

Right.

But everyone's like, that's serious.

And that's actually fucked up.

And it's like, huh?

Maybe

it's just not one about you or two.

Serious.

Well, can we we talk about also like when people were dragging you for doing your mudang thing?

And then I was like, I was like, I bet she thinks it's funny.

I did, yeah, I didn't feel anything.

Sasha and I, Sasha Colby, and I were talking, you know, and I was just like, I mean, yeah, everyone's mad.

I was like,

but I'm not.

I was like, I was like, I was like, is she okay?

And Sasha was like, yeah, girl, she's laughing.

She's loving.

And I was like, okay, well, then that's it.

That's fine.

I'm like, the why are you?

People don't have to get mad on my behalf.

Right.

But I'm.

We're fine.

Yeah.

Yes.

So what is there to be mad about?

Also,

this is what happens.

Like, that is SNL.

It's comedy.

Yeah.

Like, it is so lighthearted.

It was like, to me, harmless.

Oh, my God.

And for people to,

even if you were to push it further, harmless.

It's like, it's comedy.

I don't understand.

Like, I just don't know the line.

I think people just get worked up over someone that they are.

very

it's like a it's like a love bombing thing or it's like limerent it's like they're obsessed with you and so they will die they're it's parasocial i mean what it is is it's like i need to protect this person they've expressed that they need help or i feel like i'm projecting what i might need in that situation but it's hard like you're saying like when you look online is it supposed to be a joke is this thing supposed to be funny in a time when we are nothing's funny nothing's funny when very few life is not funny right exactly and meanwhile it's like that was a really complicated weird time because it was like like i remember getting texts from people being like, are Bowen and Chappell okay?

I was like, first of all, they don't really know each other that well.

Second of all, I'm sure they are.

Third of all, why are we assuming that people don't have senses of humor?

It's like it's Chappell Roan, y'all.

It's like, I was watching your show, and that's why I was describing you as like.

There was like this fun pop catcher.

You come out in the shitlon wig and you're like, it's me, Chappell.

Like, as if we weren't supposed to know.

I'm like, this girl is funny.

We're all having fun.

It's pop stardom.

It's, you know, even if, like,

even even if you didn't like think the mooding sketch was funny or anything you don't have to say anything yeah right there's always silence like you don't you can always not say something yeah right and you know what people sticking up for me in that situation or not sticking up for me made me feel no different right exactly i um didn't feel protected and i didn't feel unprotected so because I didn't need it either way.

Sure.

Yeah.

Because I was not offended.

Totally.

I want us to have a serious conversation about this.

What What do you love about service topping?

Okay, I didn't know what service topping was.

But do you identify as one?

Because I don't know if you can see it.

I read an article.

You read an article.

And to me, is it like stone top?

It's this is, I had an encounter in the last year, not recently, but someone who was like,

what do you want me to do to make you feel good?

I'm a service top.

Said these words to me.

Like, I get off on watching someone take pleasure in what i'm doing

true

sorry isn't that just sex i'm so yeah honestly that is thank you for sex i'm so sorry service tops sorry go ahead they are in their mind they are servicing you

which sometimes i mean i'm sure we've been in situations

And I wouldn't even, I don't even know if they would identify it as kinky, but like sometimes it's like, I want to have sex because I want to feel good.

They want to have sex because they want to see you feel good.

Does that make sense?

But that in turn makes them feel good.

And so it's, you know what I mean?

Okay, so you're with you.

Sometimes I think we go crazy with the labels of everything.

I don't understand it.

I mean, I, that's why I ask if it's kinky, because it's like,

this may not

make me

like, I may not understand this pleasure thing for you, but I'm going to do it anyway, because like you like to be dominated or something or like whatever.

But to me, like I just thought that's how sex worked.

Yeah.

But what does being a giver mean to you then?

That just means

I want to do things that make you feel good.

Yeah.

Like

I will do things.

I will just give my time.

And if I yeah, and if I take that, if I'm a taker, aren't I giving you something in return by taking it?

I think that's where all three of us are kind of getting a little mixed up.

Maybe I'm lost too.

I'm a pillow princess.

I know exactly where I am.

Okay, good.

Just kidding.

Are you?

No.

No, I'm not a pillow princess.

Sometimes I'm a pillow princess.

It feels good.

I think maybe I just like, so take it like a taker.

I wasn't really like actually thinking about anything.

I was just like, oh, that's fun.

Yeah.

Because a giver and a taker.

Yeah.

Take it like a taker.

Like that's literally where my mind went.

But when I saw the article about like service tops and whatever,

I was just like, cool.

Did not know that existed.

Wasn't the intention.

Like, I just liked,

I do love that about pop culture is that they will make something out of nothing.

Like, you know what I mean?

Like, they made this, people will make like this entire outline of like what each thing means.

Yeah, like what each character I played means in like the lesbian community.

And I literally was like, don't know what you're talking about.

I just wanted to wear a blazer.

Like, I wanted to to wear a plunge.

You were talking on Apple about, like, really what it was, was you wanted a George Strait type of song, right?

Like, you wanted to feel on stage like that kind of swaggy, country like character.

Yeah.

Which I think is

different

than like, I get off on making you o-face.

I thought that was like the point of sex.

It is.

Like, for me.

I give you pleasure and that gives me pleasure.

This is the healthiest discourse on sex anyone's ever had.

But it, you know,

thank God, Dr.

Ruth is dead.

She's rolling in her grave.

One time I asked Dr.

Ruth what she thought of prep

and she didn't, she couldn't, it did not compute.

She was like, what?

I was like, it was at the Sundance Film Festival.

I was like, it's so gay guys can have unprotected sex.

She goes, well, I hate that.

No.

And then I was like, oh, oh, okay.

And then,

but it was fully Dr.

Ruth.

And I'm thinking she knows like what prep is and she did not.

And then I I was like, okay, maybe we've, we've missed each other in terms of like the sexual revolution.

The reason I say this is actually a huge reset for people, the way people talk about sex in this day and age is that it has been so divorced from pleasure.

Yeah.

I think for a lot of people.

That's interesting.

I mean, that is why that is my experience when I hooked up with men.

Yeah.

Really?

That's how I knew I was gay.

Uh-huh.

Because

you never

felt like it was about you or for you.

No, I just felt so performative.

Yeah.

And like, so, like, I just did what I thought they wanted, even if it didn't feel good.

And maybe that's what,

to me, when I'm like, okay, service top is that

you want to

do service even if you don't want to.

I don't know.

Like, I just want to do what my partner makes them feel good.

And when I make them feel good, that makes me feel good.

Right.

So I think I would not really know what to do

if someone I was hooking up with was only service stone top.

I don't think I would really know what to do because I would want to do something for them.

Yeah.

Are we saying that the term service top is a little bit, it feels like it's a given thing.

It's like saying, well,

I'm a sensory bottom.

It's like, of course you are.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, you have something in your ass.

You're going to feel that.

It's like, why only I'm the best.

I'm best when I bottom and I can feel it.

Well, yeah.

What are you talking about?

You know what I mean?

That's crazy.

It's no, but you know what, though?

Like, it takes time to like, I think a lot of people say this stuff because they're, it's, it's more a thing of, it's less them expressing what they actually like and more people being like, no, like I do have sexual agency.

I do have a sexual identity.

When the fact is, it takes a lot of time.

Totally.

Like, I don't even think.

It wasn't until my late 20s that I was even having real sex that like consciously took me out of what I had seen in like porn or what which I do think and I have so much respect for everyone like in the sex work community et cetera but I do think when you're ingesting a lot of it young you of course want to emulate the things that you see and that is like inherently not going to be natural to you every time so it's like it's like in that way it becomes a teacher in a way that can be a little rocky it wasn't and i was just thinking sitting here like

you know i had a great sexual experience like last week and I was like congratulations thank you so much and shout out verse also flip you yes amazing and I've been I've I've really started like owning myself as like the bottom that I am but then all of a sudden love so but that's what I guess what I mean is it's like I need to stop telling myself I'm one thing I think we all need to stop telling ourselves our one thing and be open to those different experiences and expressions because I think a lot of it is just us wanting to belong in something.

Yeah, that is so real.

It's so nice when there's a label that fits you perfectly.

Right.

Because that makes you be like, oh, like when I,

what is the, what is the one that is where you only are sexually attracted to people that you're friends with?

It's like, I don't know that.

It's like you have to have like a really strong relationship to like feel.

like you want to hook up with them.

And it's not even just like intimate, it's also friendship.

Does that mean that it's semi-sexual?

What is it?

I don't know.

I'm not sure.

It's

it's

Ross and Rachel.

But when I heard about that, I was like, oh, that makes sense to me.

Like, I can't, I don't want to just hook up with people I just met.

Like, that is why I'm so uncomfortable when I'm hit on.

Yeah.

Like, because I'm like, I don't know you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that is why I get myself in trouble and date.

my friends.

And then, like, you know what I mean?

That is always what happens.

And so, like, that's why I'm so, it's such a turn turnoff when people like are so bold at the beginning, yeah, because I'm like, I don't know, you gotta watch those anyway.

You're like, if people are really bold at the beginning, my experience is, okay, you're this is for you, yeah, you know what I mean.

Like, we've experienced some love bombing, and it's, I'm sure, we all have, and it's like, this, there's no way you're, you're like this.

Yeah, I've even asked a question.

I've, I've, I've sat back, cocked the brow, and been like,

how, how,

how can you be this?

Yeah, and then they have another line

The one I got was, we deserve to have good things.

We're good people.

And I was like, where'd you read that?

Motherfucker.

Where'd you read that?

Next,

think of something smarter.

But people, like,

when Snapple cap.

Snapple cap.

I'm never surprised anymore when people have rehearsed the whole thing.

Like you find out later they had a bit that they were going to do when you sat down at whatever it is they were meeting.

Like they researched things to say to you up top with your friends, especially someone like you.

Oh, you're talking about like people that research things about you.

Yeah, no, well, yes, but also it's like

I'm going to say this joke about a celebrity because I know he likes celebrities or whatever.

That, no, I was thinking of like people

that can't, you can't just Google like Wikipedia.

Like whatever.

I guess like for me, that's like gone.

And probably like for you, like people, it's gone.

It's harder.

It's gone.

Like people can like kind of guess what you might like and like manipulate a sentence that maybe would work best for you because they know you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But like a regular bar, I'm always, you know, before,

I guess.

Before last year.

Before last year, if I like had a pickup line, I'd be like, that's, I can't, I can only laugh.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's hilarious.

Cause I'm just like, but they had to try.

You know what?

That's the thing is it's like, they're trying and everyone's trying.

It's like some people think, and if I go in with an arsenal of things to say and I really like, you know, dress rehearsed what this is going to be, I'll feel better about it.

But, you know, sometimes it's just like, it is worth being like, okay, when are we going to get to the real you?

Because

it could take a long time.

Do you feel like if people know who you are, it's like

a turn off or turn on or just be honest.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Depends.

It just depends.

It does depend.

But I am very weary if someone knows who if someone is a fan

and

I like

have hit on them or something and like started like a relationship with them and I did not know they were a fan.

That is scary to me.

Yeah.

Because I'm embarrassing.

Cause I'm, I feel embarrassed.

And also I'm like, I don't trust you.

And like, are you screenshotting everything we're saying?

Are you?

I just get really, I've become so paranoid about that stuff.

Like, I'm like, girl, I'll just talk like this all the time because those freaking lip readers

we were talking about that recently it's like which God bless the lip readers we need those girls we do it is fun when you when you want to know and you're on the other side of it but like they ain't right all the time no they're not I'll tell you that at the Grammys you're like it's fucking open concept

it's crazy all these people are looking down at you it's almost like it's designed for that one thing that they really did this is the recording out of me had posted like watch chapel watch Benson Boone or like, watch Sabrina Carpenter watch this person, et cetera.

And it's just like, why are we watching these artists watch the thing?

And then all of a sudden you're like,

your finger starts going like, should I click?

And you're like, I mean, no, it's weird, but why is that available?

Because they want so bad to catch you.

Catch you.

That's the only reason.

They just want to fucking catch you.

So then why wouldn't you be paranoid if like that's on your mind all day?

That's what I'm thinking about always.

I'm just like,

I have to think about it all the time.

I won't win.

It's not that I can or can't win.

I won't.

Right.

Like, no matter what.

Literally.

I will not win this.

You're not customer service.

That's all.

But also, it's like, I'm not customer service, and it's everyone else's expectation, like against my entire humanity.

Like, it's so crazy.

Yeah.

But it's not their fault.

It's like, that's how celebrity culture is where

we find our happiness, our like depths of hell.

And for the first time, your comment matters.

For the first time, something you say, people notice.

Yeah.

And that's why the big comments are all mean.

Because for the first time,

your voice matters in a country where you've been told that you never will matter.

Yeah.

So that's why I think the psychologist, my personal psychology around

why people hate celebrities online, that's like why the biggest, all you look at the comments, the biggest ones are the meanest.

Right.

Because finally, finally, finally, finally, something you say is validated.

Yeah.

After all this time, after you feeling so helpless, after

everyone turning you down and saying that you don't matter, the mean parts of you do

online.

And so like, I don't blame people.

Of course they're going to hate.

It's like all that there is left is to be mean because it's incentivizing a mean snarky and

the meaner you are like the more attention you get right but it doesn't get them like it doesn't get them past the ceiling of like the ceiling

section right of the comment section that's the other thing it doesn't get you past the comics like it's not like it's giving you a fucking job it's not like it's getting you respect it's not like it's getting you like friends

It's awful because everybody,

and I'm saying everybody at the highest levels of like this kind of stardom, that that is like what they're dealing with.

It is.

I'm just telling, I'm just telling everybody, like from like, like from what I've seen, which is not too much, but it's like, oh shit, like even in small glimpses, like at SNL, it's like we just, we just, you just cycle through like different case studies and fame, and it's just, that's the common thread.

And it's really fucked up.

Anyway, we should move on.

Hey, everyone.

We know many of you probably have a watch list with all the streaming shows you want to see.

Well, if you haven't seen Platonic on Apple TV Plus, you need to add it to yours now.

It's hilarious.

Seth Rogen and Rose Byrne play a pair of platonic besties like Matt and I, who are as likely to cause trouble for each other as they are to support each other.

If you have seen it, you already know that.

But you might not know that season two of Platonic is out now.

This season, Rogan and Byrne deal with uncomfortably hilarious midlife hurdles, including new business ventures, weddings, and partners in crises.

And as best friends do, they try to help each other, but sometimes just make things worse.

These two are just so funny together.

Luke McFarlane and Carla Gallo are so back this season alongside new guest stars, including some seriously funny SNL alums, Adie Bryant, Kyle Mooney, and Beck Bennett, and the fabulous Milo Mannheim.

If you haven't seen season one, catch up immediately.

And if you have, second season of Platonic is now streaming on Apple TV Plus.

Don't miss it.

We're here to tell you about Searchlight Pictures' new film, The Roses.

Perfect couple, Ivy, played by Olivia Coleman, and Theo Rose, played by Benedict Cumberbatch, have it all.

Successful careers, a loving marriage, great kids.

But when Theo's career comes crashing down, just as Ivy's fame starts to skyrocket, a tinderbox of fierce competition and growing resentment ignites, threatening to destroy everything they've built if they don't destroy each other first.

All's fair when love is war.

For anyone who's ever been in a relationship, The Roses is a crowd-pleasing comedy.

Starring Benedict Cumberbatch, Olivia Coleman, Andy Samberg, Allison Janey, Belinda Bromalo, Sunita Mani, Shutigatwa, Jamie Dimitrio, Zoe Chow, and Kate McKinnon.

From the director of Meet the Parents, Jay Roach, and the writer of Four Things, Tony McNamara.

Comedy seems to be the genre of the moment.

It's easy to see why everyone could use a good laugh.

In theaters everywhere, August 29th, get tickets now.

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Summer break is always a fun time of year for kids, but during this time off school, many can lose reading proficiency and struggle with their mental well-being too.

That's why Macy's is partnering with Reading is Fundamental and NAMI in their mission to keep kids reading over the summer and to help young adults find the mental health resources they need.

When you shop at Macy's, you can donate at checkout in-store or online.

It's super easy.

How awesome is that, man?

Pretty awesome.

Macy's believes it's crucial to support non-profits dedicated to helping kids prepare for their best school year ever.

Join Macy's in support of Reading is Fundamental or Riff and NAMI now through September 14th.

Donate to Riff and NAMI through In-Store Roundup or online donation to support reading proficiency and the mental health of kids and youth.

Donate to Riff and NAMI through In-Store Roundup roundup or online donation at macy's.com/slash purpose now through September 14th.

Help support reading proficiency and the mental health of kids and youth with Macy's Today.

We want to ask you the question that we asked all of our guests, which is: Chapel Rome, what was the culture that made you say culture was for you?

So basically, this can be a movie, a music artist, environmental, something about growing up, just

whatever it means to you, the culture that made you you.

I'm really glad that guinea pigs have their own culture online

because I'm a guinea pig girl.

Wow.

Is this going to be if we never talked about that?

Yeah, no, a lot of people don't know that about me.

The guinea pigs were in, we're on SNL for the giver.

Oh, yeah, in the background.

Yeah.

And they are a forest animal.

Yes, the guinea pigs were back there.

Talk about guinea pig culture.

Well,

I'm just obsessed with them.

I had four at time,

but they passed away.

They did that.

I am obsessed with them.

I think they're the cutest animals on earth.

I

worked at a guinea, I volunteered at a guinea pig rescue for a year.

I

love rodents in general.

And I love the guinea pig community online is awesome.

I love that community.

I think the culture and like all seriousness that made me feel like me was drag.

Yes.

At first, I was very freaked out by drag.

I was like, oh,

I was like the clutch the pearls girl.

Is that coming from where you're come, where you come from?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've never, like the first time I went to a drag show, I was

18, 17 or 18.

And it was Hamburger Marys.

Oh, wow.

And I was like,

oh, my God.

Why do they keep saying anus?

That's disgusting.

And like,

they do that.

Yeah.

And I was like, I just went, I was like, that was so fun, but why do they have to just make everything so dirty?

I feel strange.

I I was very rocky horror.

Yeah, yes.

And I was like, what the hell?

And then I just got addicted to it.

So, and that has taken like a long time for me to be like, that is in my, actually in my blood now.

And like to realize all of that.

How it freaked me out at first was really just me not having any gay culture at all expressed in my life whatsoever.

So like, and there was no sarcasm like that.

There was no, like, I had no idea who John Waters was.

Like, and like, it was so cool to like see a whole community of people being gross on purpose for the sake of being, for the sake of pearl clutching.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Like that is amazing to me.

I love tackiness.

I fucking love bad hair.

I love bad style.

I love camel toe.

I love, I love, love, love a bad dye job.

I love roost.

I love like, I fucking love

when people get their teeth knocked out.

I love like,

I love that shit.

One nip slip.

Yeah, a nip.

Give me a nip slip.

That's the least you could do.

Like, yeah.

So that culture of like trashy on purpose is so freeing to me.

Yes, yes, yes.

I love that and the guinea pig culture.

And I also

really appreciate the two girls, don't remember the names, who also believed in fairies with me.

I love the fairy culture.

I think that they're real maybe.

I don't, I'm just going to say that.

And I really appreciate the fairy culture because fairies make me happy.

And I lied to everyone that I saw them.

You are a fairy dragon queen guinea pig.

Thank you.

Did you know that?

Yeah.

And you've known that.

You knew it.

You knew it.

You've always known it deep down.

I like, you know,

I love the also the, there's been a real awakening, which I grew up on the Barbie movies.

Like the crazy

animated ones.

Yeah.

I saw a compilation the other day of the Barbie animals

of the how fucking crazy it was

and like Barbie raised me yeah

fairies and Barbie is a huge thing Barbie fairy topia and that is where Bibble came from um and Bibble is basically a flying guinea pig so yeah do you feel like the fairies visit you when you're writing when you're being creative are you channeling the fairies in a way are the fairies in the walls what are your muses like Like I think the fairies are your muse.

I usually, I would say yes, fairies visit me but i think like the way i write now is from like i take things that are really up and then make it really like i i don't know like it's the same with like the subway the the lyrics are usually always darker right and they become like very very dark and then they become like light you do a brightening draft yeah yeah yeah so it's always like heavy dark and then you know then the fairies come and twinkle their fairy does then it's like yeah

All of a sudden can actually be on the radio.

Sorry, I've given like three cultures.

No, no, no, no, no, no, they're all so good because they're sharing to each other.

You need to keep sharing.

I want to return to guinea pigs.

The sentence of the day.

Yeah.

Because I had hamsters when I was little.

Yeah.

And one of the most traumatic things I think I've ever been through, right?

Every story.

They were named Chip and Dale.

And one day my dad said, I have to talk to you.

And I was like, what?

And he basically was like, we don't have Chip and Dale anymore.

And I was like, what?

They had eaten each other, Chapel.

That's what happened.

They had eaten each other alive.

I don't know if it was throws of passion.

I don't know if they had a gay fight.

They ate each other at the same time.

Chip and Dale killed each other.

It wasn't even win.

That's beta fish.

What is that?

The beta fish, they fight each other.

They kill each other.

It couldn't compute.

And now getting older and knowing human nature and animal nature, I sort of get it.

Like they were cooped up together for a long time.

But they were both boys.

They were Chip and Dale.

dale that's hard boys boys are territorial they're vicious it's true but what were they territorial over like in the space they just you know what fun fact about guinea pigs yeah like you can't normally most of the time you can't have two more than two together and like you're lucky if they bond correctly as two boys like you have to like

bond them correctly or else they will fucking like try to kill each other.

Wow.

So maybe they just like did not get they were just not bonded correctly.

Yeah.

Or they were,

they're hamster.

I don't know.

Yeah.

Did you, did you have gay ones?

I only had girls.

Girls do really well with like multiple girls.

Oh my god.

Isn't that always the case?

It is okay.

It always is the case.

Yeah.

Do you want to like have one now to like have around with?

Do you have?

I wish I had.

They,

what is so like, guinea pigs are not really

children's pets.

Like they're way more difficult to take care of than a dog or a cat.

Really?

Yes.

Because you can't just like pour them a bowl of food.

Like

they need a specific type of hay.

They need vitamin C.

Like they need a specific type of fruits and vegetables.

Like you have to give them supplements and you also like have to clean their cage.

They can only have certain types of bedding.

You have to exercise them.

You can't just let them wander around.

Like they're not potty trained.

They have to be cleaned and like they need bubble baths they need their nails trimmed it's like not easy really no it's very serious so many people come to the rescue we're like this is my first pet i'm nine and i'm like oh and i think that's why so many people have so many traumatic stories because they're actually such difficult pets to have and maybe i maybe we just didn't know that because i'm imagining it's the same like sociologically i guess i mean because they killed each other right but everyone has a crazy hamster or guinea pig or gerbil story gerbils i I can relate to the rodents.

Do you know emotionally, Bo and Yang?

I'm a rodent.

No, you're not.

Yes.

Well, okay, I know I'm maintenance.

I'm, I'm, I'm little.

You need your vitamin C.

I need my vitamin C.

I'm going to need your pellets, your hay.

I need my hay, hon.

You know what I mean?

Can I tell you, I'm vitamin D deficient.

I don't know.

Are you?

So how, do you take like a vitamin D capsule?

I must.

You should.

Yeah.

But it's like, sometimes getting out there in the sun is like, you know, it's better in theory, but then you get sunburned.

Right.

Can I ask you?

Yeah.

Why do you,

speaking of the sun and New York, cruising?

Yeah.

And I, this is like, I, someone asked me this, like a gay, a gay guy friend asked me the other day of like, why don't lesbians cruise?

Huh.

And I want to know what you think.

This is what I think.

I think because gay sex is a lot more transactional and a lot more projection-y.

So it's like, actually, it's funny, like this, this person that I was sleeping with, we went on our first date and he goes, yeah, I don't hook up a lot because I feel that it's a lot to do with like projection and I don't really need that.

Like talking about what we were talking about earlier about how like sex actually is like.

two people coming together.

And you usually can, I find this too.

It's like when you have like good eye contact with someone or like the conversation is easy.

That's why people talk about like the banter and it like just directly translates because that's what this person was looking looking for and is looking for.

And I think even more me.

And I've never really done like the cruisy thing and the

like random hookup thing.

Like, of course, I've done, I've, I've, I've experienced it and like experimented, but like I never felt comfortable going in and out of those situations.

A lot of people do.

And like, that's great.

But I think it has to do with just what gay guys are looking for.

and needing out of sex.

And it's just transactional.

Yeah.

It can live in a marketplace.

It can live in like a bathhouse or a park.

It can live.

There's a space for it.

Whereas like, just to generalize, I feel like among lesbians, it's like, it's very, there's no like end point to sex necessarily.

It's emotional.

It's like, yeah, it's, it's not achievement based.

It's not achievement based.

You're investing time and energy and care for each other in a way that like is not going to be condensed into like a sexual interaction.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's our theory.

Yeah.

Does that sound right?

I don't know.

I imagine you were like, well, the answer is

I don't know the answer.

I've just been, because

I

was naive and I went to Central Park and I was like, everybody is loving the sun.

Like, everyone is just out in their speedos.

No, I mean, it was the big audition.

Yeah.

And I was like, they're like, someone was like, they're cruising.

And I was like, I was like, what?

Cruising what?

And so, and I was like, so I've just been asking, like, take on cruising and also why people think that it's not in the lesbian culture as much.

I'm sure it is in some capacity that I just don't know about.

I'm very out of the loop, but I am just, I'm very curious about it, what people's takes are, especially in New York.

Yeah.

Because it's like,

maybe it is in San Francisco more too, but I don't really know about it in LA.

L.A.

I think, well, LA is...

LA is weird because

it's the king of this.

Looking over your shoulder.

It's constant and but and you know what it is it's like it's not even cruising as much as it more is just like constant comparison and like wondering how if you can do better that's kind of and it's not to again i hate dragging a whole city because i love la and like but i have found with dating it is a lot harder a lot

of people say that i came to new york because la is like really hard to date in especially when like you're not like because now i'm i just turned 35 it's like i'm kind of looking now for something that could could be my next like relationship.

And

I understand this.

Like, I get it.

I, I, whatever, but it can be a little demoralizing as you get older and are looking for something else.

So, better to just take yourself out of the environment entirely, which is why I moved to New York.

There you go.

Move back.

Also, New York, we don't have our fucking phones stolen as much at the Abbey.

Wait, this is a thing.

Have you heard about this?

No, no, she's not.

You hear what happened?

You're at the Pink Pony Club.

You talked about it.

I know.

Is it you doing it?

No, we've all had our phones stolen.

Remember, I went to...

I've never had my phone stolen.

You guys have?

I've had my phone stolen in West Hollywood.

Not at the Abbey, but I've had three friends and one night have their phone stolen.

Yes.

In West Holly.

And you know what they were saying?

It was the theory was that it was a bunch of short women doing women because they could just.

Not that they're picking on the women, but that was the theory.

They were picking on me.

I'm sorry.

Why not short guys?

That short guy said that.

Yeah,

it was the short women.

It was the short women they said.

But it was, it became like epidemic there for a while in LA.

It's crazy.

It's like, I don't know.

My friend just got his phone stolen at the Grove.

So

it's crazy out there right now.

Sparns and Noble at the Grove.

Where are you at?

At the Aloe.

Oh my God.

Is it Aloe?

Is it not A-L-O?

A-L-O.

Oh, I have no idea.

I'm butchering it.

Send us clothes and maybe we'll figure it out.

No, but yeah, no, the Grove.

Wow.

Imagine cruising at the Grove.

It happens.

One time I saw my favorite porn star at the Grove.

Should I say who it is?

No.

His name is Chris Damned.

He's great.

And I saw him.

Chris Damned?

Yeah.

That's awesome.

But he's not like demonic.

He's like quite lovely.

I love it.

But, and by the way, a lot of people are my favorites.

And I don't have one favorite.

At the time, I was gagged because there he was at the grove.

Yeah.

I was like, wow.

Where?

A star.

Star.

Hey, everyone.

We know many of you probably have a watch list with all the streaming shows you want to see.

Well, if you haven't seen Platonic on Apple TV Plus, you need to add it to yours now.

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You know, summer is winding down, Bo, and that's a bittersweet feeling, but there is something that's kind of nice about getting back into a routine and gearing up for fall.

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You know, and Matt, aren't you decorating your new apartment?

I am.

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I think it's time.

Oh my God, it might be time.

It's time for I don't think so, honey.

I don't think so, honey.

And I like, I was sort of going back and forth about what I was going gonna do i guess i'll do this okay because we also had a caffeine conversation before getting on

yeah okay i'll do that so this is i don't think so honey it's our one minute segment where we take 60 seconds aka one minute if you really think about it um to rip something apart and cult and here we go this is matt rogers i don't think so honey's time starts now i don't think so honey that coffee gives you coffee breath That sucks.

We need to figure it out.

Like actually wake up in the morning and I'm become that person where I open my eyes and I need caffeine.

I don't think so, honey, that it's going to change anytime soon.

Our guest is off caffeine, and I feel like I'm inspired by that, but it's just another one of my strange addictions.

I now wake up in the morning, I and also now I have relationships at the coffee shops.

Those are my girls.

I have my girls in LA, and I have my girls in New York, and I just realized in this moment, I'm leaving my apartment in LA and I'm leaving my girls.

That's really hard, they're really sweet.

But back to what I was there, so sweet.

Fernanda, she also stands Lana Del Reynolds.

She loves Lana.

And we, and like literally, when I said I was going to Coachella, she goes, I love Lana.

She did.

15 seconds.

And so she's an icon.

But listen, the thing about coffee is it gives you coffee breath, which is so bad for kissing, speaking, breathing, et cetera, and more.

And I just want to figure out a way to get my fix of caffeine.

and not have coffee breath, I guess.

Here it is, Diet Coke, Celsius, et cetera.

But I love coffee.

I don't think so, honey.

That's one minute.

Like, I'm now at the place where.

You just gotta, you just gotta go cold turkey on it, I think.

I think so, but it's like, now it's like so built into my life getting a cold brew right away.

First thing when you wake up.

I quit over Christmas break.

And was it just because like you were getting?

Yeah, I was just like going crazy.

I was like already too anxious.

And so like, I was like, if I want to actually calm down, I have to take every stimulant away.

Every stimulant.

So, wait, do you smoke weed?

Not right now.

Not right now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So like, basically, are you in a place right now of like, there's nothing going in?

Good.

I wish.

Let me say that as an asterisk.

I want a fuck ton of drugs, though.

Like,

I'm on, like.

But it's not recreational.

No, not right now.

No.

SSRI queen.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Come on.

I'm, yeah, I've got my, I also have insomnia.

So like, and I'm bipolar.

So it's like really hard if you are like not sleeping and doing.

weed.

Yeah.

So it's

cocktail.

The cocktail, but I do love an edible.

I do love shrimps.

Thank you, Silo, for sending me a box.

I don't know how you did that legally.

Hey, Silo.

We're going to be a little bit more.

We're a man Bowen.

And we can

love that.

I know.

Next time.

But I agree with you.

It's really hard.

Quitting caffeine sucks for four weeks straight.

Well, because

what we're not reckoning with is it is a drug.

Totally.

It is a drug.

I actually wondered about that, like people that are in AA and stuff.

Like, I wonder what the relationship is with caffeine.

I'm sure there's a support group out there for you.

That's wild.

I think we can, we can, let's do it together.

Well, it's like added to the list.

I'm now at the place where it's just like, I don't know why I keep doing this, but I just keep, I'm moving to a new apartment in New York.

And I keep associating that with the day my new life will begin.

But like, you can't.

That's like, that's like addict speak to you to yourself.

It's like, well,

I'll be, I'll be sober from this thing by age 35 or like, I'll just stop doing this on May 12th.

You know what I mean?

It's like, it's like, but why wouldn't you just stop doing it now?

Right.

Yeah.

So that's me with caffeine.

And this would solve my coffee breath problem.

Period.

I think.

Very afraid of people.

Like, I think that one of the worst things that could happen is for people to be like, oh, he has bad breath.

That's bad.

That is

my worst nightmare.

Yeah.

Someone's saying that.

Don't worry.

Anyway.

Don't worry about it.

Okay.

Boen yang.

You actually came in galvanized today.

I did.

Okay.

So this is Bo and Yang's.

I don't think so honey's time time starts now.

I don't think so, honey.

Ampersands.

You're doing too much.

Why do you look like that?

Why do you look like other ways?

Stay in one lane.

Figure out one look.

I'm going to draw an ampersand right now, okay?

And now I have Carpal Tunnel.

That is crazy, that shape.

And here's, I looked it up.

This is what ampersand is short for, quote unquote.

And per se, and.

Honey, just say and.

Yeah.

Just say and.

You will never be plus.

You will never be universal, worldwide, global, like plus is.

Good luck finding an amperson in any non-Latin-based writing system.

Plus is here to stay.

Plus, everyone on earth, from children to elders, knows what plus means.

It will stand for and just fine.

And if you're too lazy to write A-N-D, honey, you're in for a rude awakening.

Lots of other challenges in life up ahead for you.

Amperson, it's not saving you time.

It's going to give you wrist problems.

And you're being stupid.

And that's what I didn't, I didn't stick to landing.

No, I didn't.

No, you did.

That was great.

That was epic universe.

Thank you.

I have to say,

especially as two people who often are Matt and Bowen, and the ampersand is in there, don't do it.

Don't do it.

From now on, it's Matt plus Bowen, right?

Matt plus Bowen.

We were doing plus.

I've used an ampersand recently.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna start to retroactively.

You ended ampersand today.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Sorry.

Thoughts on ampersand?

I use it every day.

No, wait, wait, you're doing what?

Well, I write incursive, and so it's like,

I'm like,

I use and sign all the time, though.

How do you write it?

How do you write it?

I don't do that crazy eight thing.

It's the crazy eight thing is you do the reverse three and the line down the middle.

I just go,

it looks like an upside-down four.

No, that's a plus sign.

Yeah.

Okay, then I do that.

Wait, wait, wait.

Because you've also done it.

I don't think so, honey, on the letter nine.

On the letter nine.

No, sorry, the number nine.

Sesame Street, reach out.

You need us us there to teach the children.

Wait, the number nine.

So wait, if you don't like ampersand, how can you stand by the number eight?

Because eight represents the number eight.

But it still would give you a carpal tunnel if asked to write it, if tasked with writing it.

And it's easier for me to write eight, the numeral, than it is to write E-I-G-H-T.

And is barely saving you any time from writing AND.

I do agree that handwriting an ampersand is like a mindfuck, but you know, if you can figure it out, which just seems to be a good thing.

Upside down for play.

I support.

Okay,

Chapel, I feel like you wrote your topic down and we don't know what it is yet.

This is how I do it.

This is like, okay, is this the creative process?

Are you always carrying around like a moleskin?

This isn't mine.

This is no, I know, but, but I'm, but I'm in a world where it is yours.

Bow and go and

that's chic.

Really good.

Thank you.

Okay, it's time.

This is

Chapel Rones.

I don't think so, honey.

Her time starts now.

My, I don't think so, honey, is stop.

Let people get bad veneers.

Let the people have bad veneers.

Let them have good veneers.

Let them fall out.

Let them be pure white.

Let them look like coffee.

Let them.

Who cares if they don't fit?

What if they love them?

What if people love their veneers?

What if they saved up?

So long to get these veneers.

30 seconds.

And then you say that they look fucked up.

Don't say that to them.

Let the girls get veneers.

Yes.

Like, let them look like buck teeth.

And you know what?

It's okay if they talk different.

15 seconds.

That's what happens when you change your teeth.

You're just going to look and talk different.

And it's okay.

Stop dragging them.

Your teeth are probably busted, which is fine.

But you know what?

I'd support you if you got veneers and you're busted.

Yeah, and that's one minute.

Okay, this is important.

Wait, this is amazing.

That's very American of people to be like, I know how teeth are supposed to look.

Do you want to know my hottest take?

Listen.

How people drag cosmetic surgery and drag cosmetic, whatever, la la la.

Yeah.

You know what's fucking cosmetic?

Braces.

Yeah.

So you want to tell me you haven't had cosmetic work done, but you've had braces?

Got them.

Got them.

Don't tell me that.

We've all had gender-affirming care.

And all me, me shaving my fucking stubble this morning is G-A-C.

Wow.

Not to go there.

But veneers,

are you speaking?

And I will say, this is especially meaningful coming from you because I feel like

your orthodonture is very pristine.

I, because I had fucking, I had work done.

You had to do it.

Bring my teeth.

Yeah, I had fucking Invisalign for years because I could afford it.

Right.

How, what was the Invisalign process like for you?

I'm actually flirting with it in my brain.

Because people have started to get a little mean about my teeth.

Because they're American.

Yeah.

Wow.

It's only in the United States that it's fucking people are obsessed, obsessed, obsessed.

And if you do have straight teeth and they're fucking yellow, they better not be.

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And in reality, bitch, you have to have money to do this shit.

Like, it's so expensive.

No one has fucking healthcare.

No one has, can afford fucking braces.

Like, so I say, let them be.

I say, let it be.

We need girls with different teeth.

I never thought I had bad teeth.

I don't tell you what I do have bad teeth.

You know what it is?

It's like they're just...

Okay, so this was.

evenly space.

This is the truth.

This is the truth.

I was, I did a, I did a very small role in a movie called Lyle Lyle Crocodile.

A huge movie called Lyle Lao Crocodile.

My co-stars, Sean Mendes as the crocodile and Constance Wu

as herself.

As a character, but she was.

What was your character?

So I played like Orion Seacrest, like America's Got Talent, like host, because of course Lyle Lyle goes and wows the judge is at the end.

Right.

So

the little boy playing the lead, I'm saying this publicly

comes over to me, like runs over to me and goes, I'm like, hey, what's up?

He goes, you have sharp teeth like a shark.

And I go,

I literally go, not a bad job.

You can't say that to people.

And he just runs away.

And I was like, this little actor just dragged me to hell.

And then, you know what happened?

I went into the goddamn bathroom and went like this.

Pretty.

Shine a light on one of

Like, I mean, thinking, like, what is wrong?

And then they started saying, like, he needs braces, but I also want to tell you, I tuck out of one side of my mouth.

So, but this is the stuff you Americans have gotten in my head.

And then one guy I was dating said, never change the gap.

Never change the gap.

No, no, no.

Everybody.

I've dated, I've dated a lot of different teeth people.

And I like them all.

Yeah.

As long as you don't have bad breath, who fucking cares?

Right.

That's my coffee.

I love it.

I love it.

I love when people have gold teeth.

I love it.

When people have missing teeth, I love it.

Yes.

I just like, let's see.

It's also just like, bitch, some parents could never fucking afford their kid to have braces.

When you grow up, that's just what happens.

I know.

I know.

And you know what?

It's fucking hell to have braces.

And some people really need them.

Yes.

Yeah.

Because or else they'll have actual like jaw problems or like teeth will start falling out because it's overcrowding.

Whatever, bitch.

Yeah.

like but i i was actually admiring your teeth the whole time oh really yeah i was like it's so they're so cute and so white

right and you have very white teeth too yes bonyang has a great but i'm still situating thank you for saying this important thing about let veneers be yellow because they should be a little yellow because then someone's gonna say well you're those veneers are too white it's like there's you can't win with them you won't win

you won't win that's important distinction it's not about can't it's not about should.

Yeah, or you might win.

You will not.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's for my therapist on Monday.

That's Monday.

Honestly, are you going once a week?

Oh, baby, I'm in twice a week.

Yes.

I'm in twice a week.

I have my biodynamic cranial sacral therapy.

I have my acupuncture.

I have my, all my girls.

I need to try acupuncture.

Acupuncture will slay.

Really?

I had to do it like 10 times until I really was like, I understand it.

It takes a minute.

It takes a second.

What do you you mean, like physically, it's hard to adjust to it or just want to do it?

Because like, you know, you're like, I was trained in like only medicine works, like only like taking

medicine works.

And so whenever I don't have like an immediate, like I take Tylenol and then I feel better.

Yeah.

If I go and get acupuncture and I'm like, nothing's different.

Yeah.

I was like, does this work?

I don't know.

And it's like with wellness medicine, you just, it's about, Yeah.

You have to keep fucking going and showing up.

And like, I realized if like the actual acupuncture itself wasn't doing anything differently, I knew that every time I walked in there, I immediately got calmer.

Yeah.

And that's enough.

And now I believe that it's doing something.

It is, you know, it's doing both now.

Right.

I love that I'm just lying there for like a half hour and I can't do anything.

Yeah.

It's kind of cool.

It is kind of cool.

Today was kind of cool.

Today was very cool.

We were so happy that you were able to come.

Like we've been wanting to do this with you for such a long time.

And we are, you know, obviously, obviously, you know, it feels like even silly to say, but like, we are such fans.

I know.

Like, we really like, I just think you're the best.

You guys made me feel so special.

You believed in the art.

You were the start of the getting the career community on board.

Oh, no.

No, it's serious.

Like, you, like, I remember guys nominated for me.

And you celebrate your existing speech from Buckingham Palace.

Do you remember that?

I remember that.

We loved that.

And I was like, I can't believe I'm nominated with like Muna.

Like, that's so crazy.

I was like, this is crazy that these girls, we're all like nominated.

That feels so big.

And because I had never been like recognized on a platform that big yet.

So that was so, I don't know.

I just really appreciate it.

And that you got it.

Like, you were the first people in media to get it because you articulated it for the, to write for the first time.

Cause you were like, it can't be.

There's lore.

And I was like, finally, someone understands that it's a joke.

Finally, they understand that I'm everything I'm doing is like an homage or reference to like the queer elders.

Finally, someone understands that it's deeper than just what I'm doing on stage or writing about.

Like

it felt so nice to be understood.

That is what was so awesome.

I was like, it's working.

And there's, they're the proof.

It's like so working.

And you're so for real.

And that we just like, it's been truly surreal and a joy even for us to watch everyone really embrace you.

And I just hope that even sometimes when it feels difficult, you know just how held you are and how loved you are and how special we think you are.

Thank you.

And like

you'll always have a place right there

and right here.

Thank you.

Let's get the ears together.

Thank you.

Yes.

So we end every episode with a song, Bo.

Great.

I mean, we could do one of our guests, but also.

Also,

let's just do it.

caught in a bad romance.

Oh,

got it about romance.

I knew you'd go up.

I went up.

I can hear everything.

Bye.

Lost Culture East.

This is the production by Will Farrell's Big Money Players and iHeartRadio Podcasts.

Created and hosted by Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

Executive, produced by Anna Hosnier and produced by Becca Ramos.

Edited and mixed by Duck Babe and Monique Labord.

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This is an iHeart podcast.